Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 9th Aug 2018 19:07 UTC
Games

Riot Games, founded in 2006, has become one of the biggest companies in gaming on the back of its sole release, League of Legends, which had 100 million monthly players in 2016. With 2,500 employees across 20 offices, Riot is a powerhouse. In 2013, Riot was named one of Business Insider's 25 best tech companies to work for. Two years later, it made $1.6 billion in revenue. Its Los Angeles campus is cushy in the way you'd expect a money-bloated tech company's offices to be. It's got a gym, a coffee shop, a cafeteria with free food, a LAN cafe. Employees often stay late to grind out competitive skill points in League of Legends with their Riot family and are communicating on Slack well into the night. Women who don't fit in with Riot's "bro culture"- a term I heard from over a half dozen sources while reporting this story - say these amenities help make the job bearable for only so long.

Over the course of several months, Kotaku has spoken to 28 current and former Riot employees, many of whom came forward with stories that echo Lacy's. Some of those employees spoke on the record; most spoke anonymously because they feared for their future careers in the games industry or they were concerned that League of Legends' passionate fanbase would retaliate against them for speaking out. Many of those sources painted a picture of Riot as a place where women are treated unfairly, where the company's culture puts female employees at a disadvantage. Other current employees, speaking on the record, disputed that account, with some top female employees telling Kotaku they had not personally experienced gender discrimination at Riot.

A very detailed and well-researched article, with ample room for both sides of the story. It covers the experiences of both women and men with regards to harrassing behaviour, but also relays the experiences of people who never felt any sense of harrasment, while also allowing senior leadership and the company itself to properly respond to the claims made.

To go along with this story, there's the experiences written down by former Riot employee Meagen Marie, which are quite chilling. This retelling is obviously of a lot more personal nature, but it does seem to align with Riot having a deeply sexist culture.

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Sad Assumption
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Thu 9th Aug 2018 19:54 UTC
Bill Shooter of Bul
Member since:
2006-07-14

But, I just pretty much assume a lot of places are terrible to work at. I mean my job is great, but I'm not a member of a class that would be discriminated against. I have no idea what it would be like if I were a different race/gender/orientation, but I've always made an effort to make people feel comfortable.

Reply Score: 2

It's reflected in the community
by CaptainN- on Thu 9th Aug 2018 20:22 UTC
CaptainN-
Member since:
2005-07-07

A toxic bro-man-boy culture is what drove me away from that game. They tried for a while to pretend to do something about it, but have largely removed everything that looks like an attempt to curtail that unaccountable masculinity thing they have going on in the community. Some truly awful people play that game.

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Dude, calm down. You seem a a bit overly upset about video games. I's just video games, right?
Which is not even the topic here.

BTW nobody is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to work at "Dudebro .inc" last I checked, they are free to offer their labor someplace else.


Oh yeah, that's how it works. We should just accept terrible behaviour instead of doing something about it. Like civil rights. If black folks had just shut up and moved somewhere else things would have magically gotten better.

"toxic black culture" at a black owned and operated company

Maybe you can give an example of this actually happening.

Or a man complaining about a company run by women with a hard feminist slant

Yeah, that happens a lot. It's almost a fraction of the opposite.

My guess is not.

My guess is that you seem to be a bit threatened by women and minorities.

Edited 2018-08-10 03:58 UTC

Reply Score: 9

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

How dare I not be in support of a communist utopia where we are all interchangeable plastic dolls with zero differences!


Communism? Who's talking about communism? You clearly don't know what communism is. We're talking about behaviour that is destructive in the work place. But hey, if having non-sexist, non-racist works places is a communist utopia then sign me up.
Your belief in the infallibility of the free market is quite endearing though. Too bad it's a utopia.

with some trying to label ACTUAL FACTS as "hate speech"


What facts would that be, I wonder.

to silence people and even imprison them.


Oh really now.

black woman get a one day ban from Twitter (one of the big three de facto monopolies of social media, along with FB and Google) for "hate speech" for simply taking the racist Korean's tweets and changing the word white to black.


Why would you have a problem with this? The company is just being run in the way they want. That's how it should be, right? Don't you support the freedom for companies to do whatever they want?

Edited 2018-08-12 09:18 UTC

Reply Score: 7

boys?
by project_2501 on Thu 9th Aug 2018 22:03 UTC
project_2501
Member since:
2006-03-20

I read a serious article by a psychologist last year which suggested that a major cause of tech sector bro culture is not as complex as some make it.

It's just children, not sufficiently developed in character and experience, getting their hands on far too much money and power.

What would a bratty 8yr old boy create as his very own company - free food, loads of games, pizza and beer, and you can guess how 8yr old boys treat girls...

Myself, I resisted the simplicity of this analysis .. but it feels annoyingly correct.

Reply Score: 11

RE: boys?
by DavidCollins on Fri 10th Aug 2018 17:54 UTC in reply to "boys?"
DavidCollins Member since:
2010-03-22

It sounds correct. Not malice, just immaturity, failure to consider the wider consequences of actions, acting however gives you quick emotional satisfaction at the time.

You know, the book Microserfs had something vaguely similar. It was more innocent, but basically the author pointed out that the culture of Microsoft seemed based around keeping programmers in a kinda immature state. In his case it was more stuff like nerf guns, but it does raise questions about what maturity actually is, what causes people to mature, and why different people mature at different rates.

Myself, even at a young age I was pretty mature in some respects, but I still had a LOT to learn in others.

Reply Score: 5

Comment by kurkosdr
by kurkosdr on Thu 9th Aug 2018 23:22 UTC
kurkosdr
Member since:
2011-04-11

Any feminists reading this article decided to help solve the problem of underrepresentation of women in computer programming jobs by enrolling into a gender studies course in order to better study the effects that make this happen.

As long as the people willing to put the hours and perseverance that computer programming and computer science courses require are mostly men, we are going to have "bro culture". These "bros" won't magically change their ways because someone wrote an article, and most people need software, so these "bros" won't go bankrupt anytime soon.

Edited 2018-08-09 23:41 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by kurkosdr
by Ford Prefect on Sun 12th Aug 2018 11:29 UTC in reply to "Comment by kurkosdr"
Ford Prefect Member since:
2006-01-16

Oh cry me a river about how hard it is to learn programming and working in IT.

It is a ton of fun, actually. The 'bros' are not making a sacrifice by working on games.

More often then not it is not the substance of the job but its social context that puts off women from studying computer science and working in IT. The "bro culture" is only a part of it, but saying that it is fine as is because "programming appears to be only for tough guys" won't exactly help, will it?

And I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the stark gender inequality in IT existed long before gender studies were a thing.

Edited 2018-08-12 11:32 UTC

Reply Score: 5

Comment by kurkosdr
by kurkosdr on Thu 9th Aug 2018 23:39 UTC
kurkosdr
Member since:
2011-04-11

Now I know some people will respond to this by saying that modern culture frightens women away from the field. Sorry folks, modern culture heavily incentivises women to study computer science, and any female graduate with a CS degree is either readily employed or unemployed by choice because a female CS employee makes any tech company's diversity stats look better. A simpler explanation is that women (or modern women) don't want to put in the perseverance and mental wear that computer programming requires and instead prefer to study fields which require lots of memorization and repetition (women are very good at this) or fields that involve writing essays where everyone can be right at the same time and everyone can feel warm and fuzzy.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Comment by kurkosdr
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 10th Aug 2018 00:08 UTC in reply to "Comment by kurkosdr"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

or fields that involve writing essays where everyone can be right at the same time and everyone can feel warm and fuzzy.


You don't interact with women on a daily basis, do you?

What utterly sexist drivel, completely out of touch with any semblance of reality. I feel sad for you.

Reply Score: 9

RE: Comment by kurkosdr
by galvanash on Fri 10th Aug 2018 06:30 UTC in reply to "Comment by kurkosdr"
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

A simpler explanation is that women (or modern women) don't want to put in the perseverance and mental wear that computer programming requires and instead prefer to study fields which require lots of memorization and repetition (women are very good at this)


I have been a computer programmer for 25 years and I think I can say with reasonable certainty that the vast majority of computer programming jobs consist of about 95% memorization and repetition.

Everyone thinks its all about creativity and ingenuity. Sure, there is a bit of that at first as you repeatedly "invent" clever solutions to problems, until you slowly realize somebody already did what you did a hundred times over and you just hadn't learned of it yet. That 5% of the time when you actually do something clever or unique makes it worth it to me, but mostly I'm just refining my ability to do the same things I did 20 years ago, just in new languages or in a more disciplined fashion. That is the job, constant learning and discipline, definitely things I think everyone can agree is not biased towards either sex (or anything else really).

As for perseverance and mental wear, in my experience women handle that at least as well if not better than men. Its just that most of them do it quietly without whining about it all the time, or worse flaunting it as if putting 80 hours of work in a week is somehow honorable and not stupid and self destructive (which is what it actually is)...

By the way, this is coming from someone who is sick to death of hearing all the moaning from the SJW crowd about whatever-ism in video games. I largely adhere to the philosophy that the industry would be better if games were more diverse in their target demographics instead of watered down to be palatable by all demographics... Games largely targeting men and boys are not the problem, its more of a lack of games targeting other groups. There are some, and they have been largely successful, so there is hope - but eventually if the current outrage-about-f*cking-everything culture keeps going, the pendulum will just keep swinging back and forth and it will never end - everyone pissed about everything their sex, race, tribe, or whatever doesn't like. If you don't like a game don't buy it - I have never understood the problem with that approach.

You don't see all this outrage about the clothing industry, because generally speaking men and women have different taste in clothes (duh), and somehow no one is offended by that. Why is that? Maybe its because both sexes are largely having their individual tastes serviced in a fairly equal fashion. And if your a guy that likes women's clothes (or vise versa) guess what, your covered too! Everyone is happy, I really just don't see the problem... Lets all complain about it until everyone is bullied into making clothes for everyone so that it doesn't fit anyone well anymore! How is that a solution???

Anyway, back to the point. Just because I think the above doesn't mean I'm sexist or anything-ist - I'm just tired of all the manufactured drama. I actually consider my female peers to be at least as capable as me or any other man (and yes, even at coming up with the clever and ingenious solutions that we seldom get to relish in). Most female programmers I know are really good at their job. If you think they are somehow ill equipped for it your an idiot.

Edited 2018-08-10 06:45 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by kurkosdr
by kwan_e on Fri 10th Aug 2018 13:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kurkosdr"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

You don't see all this outrage about the clothing industry,


Not constant outrage, but you don't think there are women who do hate double standards in women's clothing? One thing I learned in recent years is that many women actually hate the fact that pockets on womens clothing tend to be too small and fake most of the time. They'd actually like pockets they can put stuff in instead of having to carry a handbag around. Or that womens clothes are more expensive than mens, and less durable, forcing them to have to buy more because they wear out quicker. I know many women do just say fuck it to it all and do buy mens clothes instead.

And this highlights the whole problem: just because you don't hear about a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem, and just because they can work around the problem doesn't mean the problem should persist, lest you hear about it and get tired of it. Because it's all about you, isn't it?

Lets all complain about it until everyone is bullied into making clothes for everyone so that it doesn't fit anyone well anymore! How is that a solution???


Have you ever bought clothes? Modern clothes literally do not fit anyone well. We're already here. They're all cut for this mythical body shape that only appears on TV and photoshopped images. Even the fact that I, as a really average sized man, can't find clothes that fit me, is due to bad and unrealistic and inconsistent sizing that starts out being foisted on womens clothing, and because it is normalized by half the population, then gets foisted onto mens clothing. Even the most man-centric man incapable and unwilling to seeing things from someone else's perspective should at least realize it all comes back to affect them, whether it is clothing, etc.

Funny how free marketeers are actually against the freedom of people to complain to try and get businesses to cater to real people.

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Comment by kurkosdr
by galvanash on Fri 10th Aug 2018 16:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kurkosdr"
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

One thing I learned in recent years is that many women actually hate the fact that pockets on womens clothing tend to be too small and fake most of the time.


Fair enough. Valid complaint. The way to handle that is to ask for clothes with bigger pockets, its not to rage about the existence of clothes with fake pockets (that some people may like) in an effort to force everyone to conform to having bigger pockets...

And this highlights the whole problem: just because you don't hear about a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem, and just because they can work around the problem doesn't mean the problem should persist, lest you hear about it and get tired of it. Because it's all about you, isn't it?


Your missing the point. The problem is some demographics are not served well by the gaming industry. That isn't what the SJW crowd complains about anymore (they used to, back when I actually agreed with them, but I don't see much of it anymore). What they complain about now is anything that they find distasteful for one reason or another. I find jean shorts and crocks distasteful, but I don't complain about them, or write articles on the internet raging about them, I simply just don't wear them...

Funny how free marketeers are actually against the freedom of people to complain to try and get businesses to cater to real people.


I'm perfectly fine with people complaining to try and get businesses to cater to them, what I'm not fine abut is people complaining to try and get businesses to stop catering to others.

Reply Score: 0

v I have several problems with this article
by smashIt on Fri 10th Aug 2018 19:45 UTC
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

On the other hand women always feel disadvantaged.
It's part of their nature


This is a truly amazingly stupid statement.

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

"The female mind is made for a woman with a child on her arm"


Another one who clearly doesn't interact with women, ever.

I feel so sad for you.

Reply Score: 2

smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06


Another one who clearly doesn't interact with women, ever.


Approximately 3/4 of psychology students are women.
I'd guess Peterson is interacting with them very frequently.

Reply Score: 1

Novan_Leon Member since:
2005-12-07

It's not worth it.

Pointing out the psychological differences between men and women will just get you labelled a hate-monger. Nevermind the preponderance of evidence. You saw what happened to James Damore.

Edited 2018-08-14 15:17 UTC

Reply Score: 2

smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not worth it.


Thom is a hopeless SJW.
But if someone who is not part of this discussion is learning something frome it, it's worth the trouble.

Pointing out the psychological differences between men and women will just get you labelled a hate-monger. Nevermind the preponderance of evidence. You saw what happened to James Damore.


I'm well aware of that, but there is still hope:
https://dailynewshungary.com/gender-studies-to-be-banned-in-hungary/

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

It's just biology, whether you like it or not.

Jordan Peterson said it nicely in one of his lectures:


Peterson is not a biologist though so he's out of his field here and many actual biologists does not agree with his position.

Reply Score: 3