Linked by Eugenia Loli on Wed 28th May 2003 18:28 UTC, submitted by michael
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y In what is being called "one of the largest desktop migrations to Linux ever seen", Microsoft seems to have lost a major account worth "tens of millions of euros" when the city of Munich said on Wednesday it would switch 14,000 computers from Microsoft's Windows operating system to Linux.
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Cool...
by DoctorPepper on Wed 28th May 2003 18:33 UTC

Let the flood-gates (no pun intended) begin to open.

ha ha!
by metro305 on Wed 28th May 2003 18:34 UTC

See subject!
:)

They will most likely be netscaped
by XBe on Wed 28th May 2003 18:34 UTC

I think it's pretty sad to say, but yah, I'm quite sure they'll be netscaped... in 1 year? 5 years? most likely the latter, but things can go pretty fast.

The big question though... will MS get Netscaped by MySQL or PG?

Even better question really is if databases will be in 5 years from now what they are today... I think it'll be a completely different technology differing so much that the work placed in it today will be worthless.

yes it's true...!
by synergy on Wed 28th May 2003 18:38 UTC

unfortunatly, frankfurt/main which also belongs to germans biggest cities has (just yesterday?) signed a new contract with mfst.

anyways, this is a clear sign that microsft is and will come(-ing) more and more under pressure also on the desktop, which in the end will lead to better as well as cheaper products on both sides imo, and will certainly encourage cities or even companies to act similary.

In other news...
by Jim on Wed 28th May 2003 18:48 UTC

The department of transportation now has hydrogen powered cars. By next year the world will be free of petroleum based fuel altogether and the few people still using the dated fuel will be paying 12 cents a gallon. I know I’m right because these people from Greenpeace said it will happen. You better drive your earth killers while you can because they won't even exist next year. I quit aiding terrorists when I bought one last week and already saved 3 Israeli lives.

RE: In other news....
by Greg on Wed 28th May 2003 18:57 UTC

Your sarcasm is stupid. what are you trying to say? That Munich didn't adopt Linux? It did. Are you saying that Linux will not be adopted widely any time soon? It very well might. Take off the blinders.

It's all in the money
by Brian on Wed 28th May 2003 19:03 UTC

When it comes down to it, any organization that has large scale needs is stupid not to massively migrate over the Linux, especially if it's actually held responsible for its expenditures.

What makes it even more attractive for government agencies is that they actually also help promote their own home grown expertise in a system they have some measure of control over.

I hope this makes MS sweat, and also is a wakeup call to the stupid people in the US govt who think that keeping MS afloat is critical to the economy regardless if they've been found guilty of abusing their position in the marketplace.

@Jim ->And Yet in other news...
by Gonzalo on Wed 28th May 2003 19:05 UTC

Another pointless poster fills a few line with his vile to comfort his own sense of identity, which depends overtly on his choice of software vendor.

Meanwhile, people around the world create good software because they enjoy using it and sharing it with others.

Very interesting...
by Gil Bates on Wed 28th May 2003 19:06 UTC

I, for one, am looking forward to the case study that determines how well all of this works out. I really suspect that they will need to run Citrix or Terminal Services to maintain the existence of various Windows-only 'legacy' applications on many of these Linux desktops.

I am very curious to see if such a huge operation can be run successfully on the likes of KDE + OpenOffice, what kind of problems they run into and how they solve them. I'm skeptical, but the Germans certainly aren't, considering that MSFT actually underbid the Linux proposal and still lost...

15 percent?
by Spark on Wed 28th May 2003 19:07 UTC

From the Yahoo article:

Linux is considered by many to be the only big rival to Microsoft's Windows and can already be found on 15 percent of all computers sold in Western Europe.

Did I miss something?

ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!
by Apocolyptic Fury on Wed 28th May 2003 19:14 UTC

I think its about damn time that nations and large companies stopped being so dependent on the monopolistic Bill Gates. And its good for Germans living in Munich!

Re: Spark's questions about 15%
by Gonzalo on Wed 28th May 2003 19:18 UTC

"From the Yahoo article:

Linux is considered by many to be the only big rival to Microsoft's Windows and can already be found on 15 percent of all computers sold in Western Europe.

Did I miss something?"

Yes you did, the fact that Extremadura and Andalucia, the latter the largest region in Spain, with a combined population of over 15 million people, have standardized on Linux in the education and government sectors.

Extremadura has sponsored its own Linux distribution (http://www.linex.org) which is given away with every newspaper. Furthermore, the government both regions have created the following requirements:

a)All hardware must be Linux-compatible, allowing all the features of the hardware to function to the fullest extent.

b)All government employees, whether technical or clerical, will have to show competence in the use of GNU/Linux as part of the state examinations for becoming a government employee.

You are talking about thousands of schools and kids that are running the distribution or that soon will be.

That's one of the things that you might have missed.

re: very interesting
by penguinhead. on Wed 28th May 2003 19:25 UTC

"I am very curious to see if such a huge operation can be run successfully on the likes of KDE + OpenOffice, what kind of problems they run into and how they solve them. I'm skeptical, but the Germans certainly aren't, considering that MSFT actually underbid the Linux proposal and still lost..."

True, it will be interesting, but I have no doubt it will work.
It's all about trading in one side of upsides and downsides for a different
set with an eye on the net benefits. What ever difficulties they encounter
will be overcome and in their opinion worth it. That is why they made the
decision they did.
Besides it's not as if Microsoft Solutions were used or retained when their numerous disadvantages begged for a different one.
In short, they will be just fine... and out of the MS hamster treadmill.
You know the one made out of razor wire and whose door Bill
keeps trying to weld shut.

Congrats
by Anonymous on Wed 28th May 2003 19:39 UTC

Although I'm not a SuSE fan, congrats to them for pulling this off. A win for SuSE is a win for Linux.

Linux vs Apple
by smurf975 on Wed 28th May 2003 19:46 UTC

I think Apple Computer could learn something from this.
People want:

a) Cheap, Cheap and very cheap solutions.
b) But still retain quality.
c) Most big buyers are not interested on the logo on the computer or style of the casing.
d) Choice, being able to use whatever and not being locked into hardware, software.

this is great
by SteveB on Wed 28th May 2003 19:53 UTC

the great thing about this is, that they choosed linux and open office not because it is cheeper or some other reasons like this. no! they choosed it because they think that this is the right strategic and longterm solution for them.

and microsoft was able to give them up to 90% of reduction on all the microsoft software and munich still did not choose microsoft.

and another good think i like about their apporoach: while ibm and suse have submitted their offer/proposal for the move of those 14'000 computers, they both are not 100% sure on board for the realisation. the city is still looking who will get the real deal. this is great. because it shows, that after you choose to use gnu, you can try to get the best offer available and you are not forced to use only one (as it would be when you chosse ms technologie).

and another good thing i like: they are not moving just right now and everything. they plan very carefull and the complete migration will go over a period of 4 years in total. this just shows how carefull and well prepared they are.


this is a very good strategic and economic move for the city!

the total project budged is about 30'000'000 euro. while this is not a big deal for microsoft... it shows that they are loosing ground. it is not their end, but they have since long time ignored the thread they had with linux. and now this "playing blind" strategy does not pay off for them.
i personaly think that alot of mistakes for that can be searched at mircrosoft directly. and of course linux is getting better and better. (i use it for my company on all the servers and our secretary is working with it since about 6 months without any problem).


another good thing about the deal in munich is: it shows that it was not the "free" availability of gnu/linux wich lead to the desicion. it was the long-term strategic bonus linux has. and i think this is again a problem microsoft has with their products! while microsoft has good product, they mostly are declared as not so secure and not open to any standard at all.
i know that linux is not rock-secure and the most secure os in the world and linux has problems as well. but the community of computer-users declare microsoft as expensive and unsecure. and microsoft has a long long way to get that rumor out of the world. the problem is that they can make their product very secure, but users are not forgetting. they need years to get trust back in somethin they lost the trust.
linux on the other hand has the rumor to be difficult to set up and you have to be a computer genius to get it runing.
while linux is getting better and better in that... it has still the rumor to be difficult. and compared to such click and run software on windows, it is true that linux is diffrend and not so easy. (don't start to tell me the opposite! i know linux since 1994 and i know that linux has come a long way. but still it has his root in a diffend world then windows and it is diffrend! if you are a windows user, then linux is just very difficult to you. if you are a linux user, then windows is easy, but unflexible and a black box. but a linux user can much easyser handle a windows box then a windows user a linux box).

anyway... i am happy that linux gets more and more users.


cheers

SteveB

Go, Go, Go!!!
by linux_baby on Wed 28th May 2003 20:02 UTC


Remember the day, back in 1999/2000, when it was big news when a big corporation adopted linux? I still remember that story about Bell-South, and how it was successfully using linux for mission-critical systems! You had to keep an eye on every little corporation using linux because, the serious question of the day was: is linux good enough for the enterprise? Today, the naysayers are becoming believers!

The story will be the same for the linux desktop. It ain't there yet, but the pieces are very quickily coming together and it very soon will be.

Go Munich!
by knoppy on Wed 28th May 2003 20:18 UTC

Gee, does anyone think this event might, in small part, have anything to do with the Bush administration's dull-witted small-minded xenophobic view of the world and, in this case, of Germany in particular? You know they're already disinclined to patronize McDonald's and quaff Coke in Germany since the invasion of Iraq. This looks like more of the same sentiment to me, with the added bonus of free software.

It would have happened sooner or later anyway, I suppose. Hey, is Microsoft stock up or down these days?

More informations...
by Datschge on Wed 28th May 2003 20:18 UTC

(since it's about my hometown ;)

SuSE's (the winning company) press release in English:
http://www.suse.com/us/company/press/press_releases/archive03/munic...

The whole deal started two months ago with a study by Unilog Integrata which concluded that a Linux-only offering is superior to mixed environments and Windows-only in all cases by a wide margin. This led to heavy activity on Microsoft part, the most famous being Ballmer stopping his holidays and paying Munich a visit for convincing them to take Microsoft nevertheless, reducing the price of their offer and adding goodies omitted before. This again led to a small add-on to Unilog's study last Wednesday suddenly concluding that a Windows-only solution is preferable with the now suggested price of ? 27 million by Microsoft versus the ? 30 million estimated by SuSE and IBM. This again led to heavy activities in the Technische Universität Munich spawning protest letters etc. This Monday the governing SPD (socialdemocrats) and Greens party in Munich released press releases that they decided pro Linux after looking at the offers again. This of course spawned protest from Microsoft which German spokesman Hans-Jürgen Croissant had been quoted calling the whole progress "unfair competition" and asked for a revision of all negotiations. Subsequently on Tuesday the Greens in Munich released another press release confirming that Microsoft is still trying everything to get the offer and reduced the price another ? 7 million, but that their fraction's decision for Linux is firm and that Microsoft last discount is highly questionable if not even illegal. Today the Stadtrat (city government) consisting of seven partys decided pro Linux, with CSU (conservatives, governing party of Bavaria of which Munich is the capital) being the only party against the decision (just now I'm amusedly reading quotes by them calling the decision "hazardous" =). Btw I'd really like to give links but I figured most people here won't want to read German or some babelfished translations of it. ;)

Re: Go Munich!
by Datschge on Wed 28th May 2003 20:24 UTC

> disinclined to patronize McDonald's

You know I always preferred Burger King anyway. ;)

Re: Go Munich!
by Anonymous on Wed 28th May 2003 20:28 UTC

Gee, does anyone think this event might, in small part, have anything to do with the Bush administration's dull-witted small-minded xenophobic view of the world and, in this case, of Germany in particular? You know they're already disinclined to patronize McDonald's and quaff Coke in Germany since the invasion of Iraq. This looks like more of the same sentiment to me, with the added bonus of free software.<P>
So, Knoppy, you're saying that Bush II is doing good for Linux? He's not only shamed them as self-serving cowards, but frightened them into adopting Linux? WOW! That George ... he's one BUSY guy!

re: Microsoft Loses City of Munich Deal to Linux
by Nick on Wed 28th May 2003 20:31 UTC

Pure politics:

german city picks (suse) german linux co. ....most likely

....despite the lowered price from (ms) american co.

.... ms final bid was evidently lower than suse bid

.....users of 14,000 computers will have to be trained on new software and new environment

.....administrators will have to be trained on new software

purchasing for all hardware will be constrained to items that meet linux hardware compatability: fewer choices for higher prices in many cases i would wager

....seems to me german city is jumping through hoops to spend more and inconvenience a lot of people simply to prove some agenda

....politics

americans should consider proving a point with german goods and services by boycotting them.

fight politics with politics i say: this is not about computer technology at all.

Discounts
by Don Cox on Wed 28th May 2003 20:42 UTC

"and microsoft was able to give them up to 90% of reduction on all the microsoft software and munich still did not choose microsoft."

It wouldn't be too hard to guess that those discounts would go away in a year or two.

"Americans should consider proving a point with german goods and services by boycotting them."

Ban German OSes. ;-)

RE: Linux vs Apple
by SteveB on Wed 28th May 2003 20:43 UTC

I think Apple Computer could learn something from this.
People want:

a) Cheap, Cheap and very cheap solutions.

this is wrong! most users want to pay not to much for the same solution other offers as well. but they don't want cheap solutions!

b) But still retain quality.
true

c) Most big buyers are not interested on the logo on the computer or style of the casing.
true

d) Choice, being able to use whatever and not being locked into hardware, software.
true. but if "beeing locked into hardware" is just one problem or something you don't like and everything else is okay for you, then you will look over this problem and live with it! or if the freedom of beeing not locked into hardware means other problems, then i coose the option to be loocked into hardware.

Re: Go Munich
by linux_baby on Wed 28th May 2003 20:45 UTC

>> Gee, does anyone think this event might, in small part, have anything to do with the Bush
>>

Bush for sure has the most muscular foreign policy I've ever seen, but even before Bush, the german people have had a not small consideration for SUSE. SUSE is a german company, don't forget. And there are many governments that are considering linux, from India to Latin America to Africa and Europe. The biggest problem is that MS is determined and aggresive. They have enough money to woe/bribe governments and politicians (Check out the Uganda Story), and they don't mind loosing money in the short run, because they know that they will more than recoup their looses, in the long run, wherever windows becomes a standard.

RE: Discounts
by SteveB on Wed 28th May 2003 20:55 UTC

It wouldn't be too hard to guess that those discounts would go away in a year or two.
i would bet my last $ on that! ms is know of such bad tactics.

Ban German OSes. ;-)
what do you want to ban? SuSE? it is only linux and you can not ban that easy.

>> fight politics with politics i say: this is not about computer technology at all.
>>

What on earth do you mean? From a technology viewpoint, many intelligent and sincere people truly prefer linux to windows. I know I do, and it isn't about which os currently has the better Word Processor. Its about open standards and the future.

From an economic viewpoint, linux is definitely cheaper. MS can cut a deal today to make an immediate sale. Heck, they can even give the windows away for free. But once windows becomes entrenched in the system, they can screw you ten-times-over. That's what they've always done.

And why are you dissing Germany? The best thing about linux is that it is open. MS, SUN, Germany, US, Brazil, whoever, can make or use it. Linux is open enough to accomodate all sorts of corporate agenda, nationalism, ideology, or whatever. Relax, man, leave the politics to Rumsfeld.

life not fair
by JJ on Wed 28th May 2003 20:59 UTC

Life is never fair for MS unless they get it all.

So they undercut Linux price by just enough to swing it. How long would that have lasted. Once hooked on MS, the price climbs very steeply in the long run. The price only drops when they are real scared, its a matter of saving face for MS. I am still pissed they took over VPC.

Its all about control, if you don't care about anoyances and want to live in popup window, virus, spam infested world, go MS. I Hope that the employees who have to use Linux though will have good tech support on hand so they have a smooth ride.

my 2c

re: Go Munich!
by Future on Wed 28th May 2003 21:01 UTC

I am afraid you're right. Despite here in Europe we have a lot of respect for the culture and technology coming from USA, recent events show that we _must_ be more independant, we don't want to be punished and treated just like kids by Bush and friends only because we said "Sorry, but we disagree". It's a question of freedom, of integrity. You can't keep IT away from economy, and you can't keep enconomy away from politic. So it is true to say that bush does a lot for Linux...

RE: Re: Go Munich
by SteveB on Wed 28th May 2003 21:02 UTC

Bush for sure has the most muscular foreign policy I've ever seen, but even before Bush, the german people have had a not small consideration for SUSE. SUSE is a german company, don't forget. And there are many governments that are considering linux, from India to Latin America to Africa and Europe. The biggest problem is that MS is determined and aggresive. They have enough money to woe/bribe governments and politicians (Check out the Uganda Story), and they don't mind loosing money in the short run, because they know that they will more than recoup their looses, in the long run, wherever windows becomes a standard.

let me just quote some elements of the suse press anouncement:
The city clearly sees Linux not just as cost savings over costly, proprietary software, but also as the best tool for the job -- bringing security, stability, flexibility and privacy, not available to them before.

And worldwide, more than 75 IBM government customers - including agencies in France, Spain, UK, Australia, Mexico, the United States and Japan - have now embraced open computing and Linux to save costs, consolidate workloads, increase efficiency and enact e-government transformation. With Munich's decision, one thing is clear - it's open season for open computing. Linux represents freedom and flexibility. This is essential in e-government - they need more flexibility to serve their constituencies better and faster, and freedom of choice to do it at less cost to the public.


and when you read the german stuff on heise.de, then you will see, that they choosed linux becouse of the long term strategic bonus points linux has, compared to windows.

microsoft was indeed cheeper, but microsoft customers are learning quickly. microsoft may be cheep at the beginning, but it gets expensive and very shaking (they change to much each time they release something and they started to change their price politics to often).

linux is not the solution for all the problems, but at least you are not FORCED to move every year to new stuff and pay and pay and pay and pay.

re: Microsoft Loses City of Munich Deal to Linux
by Datschge on Wed 28th May 2003 21:02 UTC

> leave the politics to Rumsfeld.

Isn't that the guy who's disinclined to patronize his relatives in Germany? ;)

This is good news
by Darius on Wed 28th May 2003 21:16 UTC

14,000 less Windows users can only be good news for the rest of us ;)

re: They will most likely be netscaped
by Anonymous on Wed 28th May 2003 21:40 UTC

think you could come up with something original, instead of reusing a phrase from the title of the very next article?


""Is Oracle about to Get Netscaped?
By Eugenia Loli-Queru - Posted on 2003-05-28 18:29:17
Ellison faces pressure from both sides of the database market -- IBM on top, and Microsoft below. A little more than a year ago, Gartner Group principal analyst Colleen Graham issued a study that showed IBM taking the lead over Oracle for the first time in the cutthroat corporate-database market.""

SUSE NOT CHOSEN YET
by linux_baby on Wed 28th May 2003 21:42 UTC


I was reading the CNET verson of the news, and while the decision to go with linux has been made, the choice of distribution has not been concluded. This is what CNET reports:

====
Though Munich doesn't intend to select open-source technology providers until the first quarter of 2004, computer maker IBM and Linux seller SuSE helped Munich evaluate the move and are candidates, the companies said.
====

So, the decision on which dist to go with, and who gets the actual cash, has not been made. IBM is in the race for some of that euro, and it definitely is NOT a German company. The political spin someone is putting out seems a bit premature.

re: suse not yet chosen
by Dave on Wed 28th May 2003 21:52 UTC

"So, the decision on which dist to go with, and who gets the actual cash, has not been made. IBM is in the race for some of that euro, and it definitely is NOT a German company. The political spin someone is putting out seems a bit premature."

IBM & SuSE are partners. IBM hardware, SuSE Linux.

SuSE/IBM winning the bid is a forgone conclusion, they partner most if not all of the public sector linux installations in Germany.

a grain of salt...
by synergy on Wed 28th May 2003 21:54 UTC

the opposition has published a statement this evening where they claim that many of the various it-leaders of the different parts of munichs administration are aginst this move because there's no adequate software on linux, and that it needs to program from scratch.
so because staying with mfst might be cheaper and much easier, decision might get revisited because of this-we'll see...

To all the people blaming politics
by Nacs on Wed 28th May 2003 21:54 UTC

I'm reading a lot of posts here about Germany adopting Linux just because of politics and because MS is a US based company.

Did you guys even read the article? IBM is going to be part of the deal with Suse. IBM for the less informed is a US based company.

If Munich switched just because they don't like America/American businesses, they wouldn't have picked IBM.

This move is a great one and hopefully more will follow their example.

I personally believe one of the biggest reasons Munich switched to Linux is because Linux is opensource. They can see all of the code, can change it if necessary and not have to worry about any backdoors.

RE: a grain of salt...
by synergy on Wed 28th May 2003 21:56 UTC

"opposition" (do you say that in english...?) means the minority in the cities parliament, the csu (christian-social-union).

Germany vs US
by Tyr on Wed 28th May 2003 22:24 UTC

This should not be seen as a negative move against the US, but as a positive move towards supporting IT developement (and spending) in their own country. Just another advantage of open source Linux can be American in the US, finnish in Finland and german in germany - all at the same time.

not politics
by LemerTheRemer on Wed 28th May 2003 22:27 UTC

its not politically motivated purchase get off it ;) .

i wish munich the best of luck. i wish my city would save money with linux. we are hurting for extra cash!

(stupid CA, worst state in the union)

RE: Linux vs Apple
by oberto on Wed 28th May 2003 22:44 UTC

I think Apple Computer could learn something from this.
People want:

"a) Cheap, Cheap and very cheap solutions."
Agree! Macs are expensive.

"b) But still retain quality."
No problem!
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv3.jsp?CONTENT%3C~*~@...

"c) Most big buyers are not interested on the logo on the computer or style of the casing."

Disagree. IBM and SUSE are partnering in on this deal so when the desktops do get deployed it will be IBM boxes with SUSE Linux or another major vendor. IBM is not exactly the cheapest PC desktops or laptops out there. I personally do not know of any company that would go with a white box PC shop versus Dell, HP or IBM.

"d) Choice, being able to use whatever and not being locked into hardware, software."

Agree! I would say though that Apple's advantage is that they control the hardware and the software. Its not a minus when building a platform but its not cheap either.

This is a great win for Linux and SUSE!

RE: Linux vs. Apple
by Anonymous on Wed 28th May 2003 23:07 UTC

Apple needs to learn nothing. They're running a very successful business on their closed hardware, and are moving very quickly toward compatability. That's what's missing. I don't care what OS anyone runs(although I'd love OSX on my desk) I just want to be able to interact with anyone. Open file standards, open api's are what needs to take place.

Re: It's all in the money
by Rayiner Hashem on Wed 28th May 2003 23:22 UTC

It's not all in the money. There was an article recently about the German government's rejection of MS software even when offered licenses at a fraction of the cost. Remember, Linux isn't German software. From their point of view, it makes a lot more sense to pump money into an international community of programmers (many of which *are* German) than to pump money into the US economy. Beyond that, the German government can put a level of trust in Linux software that it just can't in MS software. It is not unheard of for US companies to put spyware into software shipped to foreign countries. That danger just doesn't exist when you have access to every line of code in the system. Lastly, the adoption of these technologies is done on a point system. Linux won on more than just price. Ease of central maintenence and improved long-term stability have a lot to do with it as well.

PS> Microsoft's latest automatic online update just fscked networking on one of my WinXP machines. I'm not accusing MS software of being unstable, just pointing out that my weekly "emerge world" has yet to break my machine ;)

almost had it..
by hmmm on Thu 29th May 2003 00:06 UTC

When it comes down to it, any organization that has large scale needs is stupid not to massively migrate over the Linux, especially if it's actually held responsible for its expenditures.

I would have said:

When it comes down to it, any organization that has large scale needs is stupid.

What did we learn from UNIX? Keep it simple, stupid!

Re: Nick
by Piers on Thu 29th May 2003 01:02 UTC

"americans should consider proving a point with german goods and services by boycotting them.

fight politics with politics i say: this is not about computer technology at all. "

Gee, I see that happening in a hurry. Could it be that most German products are superior in design and build quality to their American counterparts and that is why the Rich and Famous will not easily give up their German Televisions, cars, and white goods. You're really dreaming.

As for MS, to undercut their initial bid by more than 7million dollars, wow, talk about questionable business practices. Also as far as training people for the migration, doesn't it take far less administrators to look after comparable number desktops? With Linux desktops being similar in function to both MS and Apple I think the user retraining will be a mute point but hey, I just assume their users are people with some capacity of intelligence. More so than their American governmental counterparts (-: Hey even more than their Australian counterparts (being the lovely country I herald from (any chance of me changing citizenship?)).

I'm sure their longterm outlook is bright due to this decision, may the Governmental workers of Munich have a trouble free migration and happy computing environment (Something I can't say for MS users).

well said
by John on Thu 29th May 2003 01:17 UTC

Well said Piers. I couldn't have said it better myself.

politics and stuff...
by mopar on Thu 29th May 2003 03:09 UTC

macroscam, whoops, I mean microsoft represents everything that I believe American economics is not all about. Starting a company and winning market share by bringing out a more desireable product and having CUSTOMERS go out and BUY/CHOOSE it is the free market way- not back room deals, preloads, and running small software companies out of business because of jealousy over their better, more innovative ideas.

ms is responsible for a giant hole in our economy, and the rest of the world's, probably also. I would like to see ms go away or die, and the gap be filled with several smaller hardware and software companies. That way, we could have more choice in how we run our computers, just like we choose how to use our stereos, appliances, phones, skateboards, cars, etc... every area of our lives, but not so much for computing life. You remember the '80s, when you could buy one of several software packages, which could then be run on several hardware platforms?

Governments, companies, and individuals are going to soon start to realize that having a choice is important, because you cannot trust one software company, or one source of any commodity, to be good to you and have your best interests in mind at all times. When one screws you, go to the other. That is the greatest gift of the free market system to us.

Not a question of boycott
by Future on Thu 29th May 2003 08:40 UTC

Boycott is one of the most stupid thing. If MS or Apple would sell open/standard Linux distro, everybody would be happy. It's just about how to not be screwed, and to do what the US administration didn't achieve: true anti-trust actions to preserve the world economy from what becomes MS cancer.

Great thinking
by genaldar on Thu 29th May 2003 09:36 UTC

This is a perfect example of why Germany is having so many financial problems since becoming one country. They're going with linux even though the cost is higher. Beautiful. Great work germany.

GOOD !
by zeb on Thu 29th May 2003 09:55 UTC

The cost will be lower for the middle and long-term. No MS tax anymore, it won't be necessary to upgrade each computer when MS decides to introduce new incompatibilities in the newer versions of Word.

Kroupware
by scrooch on Thu 29th May 2003 10:12 UTC

How about the Kroupware Germany was working on? Wouldn't it be great if that could be applied at the same time?

AutoCAD?
by Don Cox on Thu 29th May 2003 10:16 UTC

"the opposition has published a statement this evening where they claim that many of the various it-leaders of the different parts of munichs administration are aginst this move because there's no adequate software on linux, and that it needs to program from scratch."

If the city architects use AutoCAD, there could be a problem. Has anyone here used AutoCAD with WINE?

Other likely problems would be specialised software for managing sewage treatment systems, street lighting, etc.

IMO they will have some problems, but it will be worth it in the long run.

Replies....
by CooCooCaChoo on Thu 29th May 2003 10:30 UTC

RE: smurf975 (IP: ---.xs4all.nl)

What apple needs to do is start proving a "business package". If they bundled the mid-range eMac with Microsoft Office + 4D Relational Database + MYOB (pay MYOB to port it to MacOS X), I think they would turn ALOT of heads in the business market. A great Office Suite, enterprise class database and a top of the line accounting tool all bundled into a system for slightly under a grand. Thats a pretty good deal if you ask me.

RE: SteveB (IP: ---.hispeed.ch)

And what is worst, once you've moved to Windows, it is VERY hard to move off it, especially with all the proprietary extensions. If it were a UNIX to Apple transition, no problems. Creating a hentrogeneous environment would be easy, however, with Windows, thats an entirely different story, it is either you go fully with Windows or put up with the idiocycracys of "interoperability" with Windows.

RE: Don Cox (IP: ---.server.ntl.com)
by CooCooCaChoo on Thu 29th May 2003 10:32 UTC

Well, IIRC, there is an Autocad commercial alternative. If they get a contract, I say good riddens to Autocad. They've neglected the Linux market at their own peril, and now they should/will pay the ultimate price for it.

Swiss real life experiences
by Friendly on Thu 29th May 2003 12:12 UTC

The University of Solothurn (Switzerland) has conducted a research series on closed and open distributed software systems. Currently they have held two conventions with conceptional basis. They examined the .NET and the Open Source philosophy. Both conventions were well attended and sported high level proponents, including RMS. See for yourself:

http://www.fhso.ch/wb/informatik/distributed_software_systems.htm

Sorry, only in german. But the Open Source section is available in english.

I paraphrase for you: OS users have less downtime, are more motivated and generally are better trained. On the downside OS is harder to deploy and requires better and very careful planning in advance. Seems like the little problems are shown in the great picture as well. Hard to set up, a breeze to use ;-)

And just one last sentence on the political rampagers: since when did we stop to agree to disagree?

Mr. wealthy gates has options to keep his company #1. There is plenty of room to lower the prices and still have profit. I think they will wait to see what linus does in the market. Once they see a big slip in sales they will probably lower the cost of their OS. Or at least that is my opinion. Bill Gates is not stupid I'm sure he has thought about the options.

Bad news for MS
by Aki Kolehmainen on Thu 29th May 2003 14:16 UTC

News like this have an instant effect on one thing: Microsoft profit margins. When big companies and public customers realize that they can get heavy discounts from MS just by threatening it with the Linux card, sure they'll adopt that negotiation method at once. Most of them will for the time being stay with MS, but MS will see its profit margins and revenue development jeopardized in a way that may make their market value collapse.

...
by Anonymous on Thu 29th May 2003 15:30 UTC

The Germans are quickly becomming the leaders of the Linux community and IBM is the leader in open source research and development.

PPC970?
by clix on Thu 29th May 2003 15:46 UTC

IBM's involvement makes me wonder if they might push a linux distribution that runs on their PPC970.

That would be sheweet.

Suse PPC: The plot thickens
by clix on Thu 29th May 2003 15:49 UTC

Suse makes a version of Linux for PPC....

Huge risk for Microsoft
by Anonymous on Thu 29th May 2003 15:59 UTC

The willingness of MS to offer huge discounts is potentially very risky. 1. It tells potential clients that MS software is hugely overpriced. 2. Big customers know that MS will accept almost any price to retain them. 3. Preferential pricing is illegal in many jurisdictions and will open expose MS to litigation from governments, unhappy customers and hugely damaging negative publicity.

Once a few really large OSS rollouts sucessfully occur MS will be forced to reduce prices drastically(~90%)to maintain clients. Price reductions will affect profitability and unnerve investors.

Gates and Ballmer know that MS is facing a crisis that is why they are reducing their shareholdings in MS.


Yes!
by Rumsfeld on Thu 29th May 2003 16:08 UTC

Strike!!!

...
by Anonymous on Thu 29th May 2003 18:24 UTC

I think that the people of Munich just got tired of Microsoft products because face it, they are garbage. And the people of Munich decided that they should open a can of whoop ass on Bill Gates and Microsoft. Therefore they made the deal with Linux. End of story.

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by Anonymous on Thu 29th May 2003 18:26 UTC

You have permission to close this one OSNews.

> leave the politics to Rumsfeld.
>Isn't that the guy who's disinclined to patronize his relatives in Germany? ;)
-No. He's that elderly guy complaining about old continents where
his parents ancestors came from...

Ban Germany?
by scsimodo on Thu 29th May 2003 21:56 UTC

>americans should consider proving a point with german goods >and services by boycotting them.

It was a decision of a freely elected government. Do you think this is anti-american? If yes, this shows the arrogance of many US-americans nowadays.

Boycott Germany?

OK, but don't complain if Germans do the same with the US

RE: scsimodo (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by CooCooCaChoo on Fri 30th May 2003 00:40 UTC

Considering that US customers would have to put up with the inferior American made cars, who do you think it would affect more?