Linked by Eugenia Loli on Tue 1st Jul 2003 06:07 UTC, submitted by Kees Witteveen
Morphos Amiga.org interviewed Bill Buck & Raquel Velasco of Genesi.
Order by: Score:
v Ha Ha, In Your face Mikey B!
by Eons Better on Tue 1st Jul 2003 10:14 UTC
RE: Ha Ha, In Your face Mikey B!
by MrZammler on Tue 1st Jul 2003 13:26 UTC

It's just a computer, man.

Ha Ha, In Your face Mikey B!
by JoNty on Tue 1st Jul 2003 13:43 UTC

"Will ammount to nothing but bickering and showing half finished assbackward demos."

...yet MOS lacks a HD preperation program, and TCP/IP stack.

Go figure.

ha ha very funny
by paul on Tue 1st Jul 2003 14:36 UTC

wow an idiot causing trouble starts the posts off.

Correction
by Christophe Decanini on Tue 1st Jul 2003 15:39 UTC

"yet MOS lacks a HD preperation program"

Absolutely wrong.

Re: Correction
by Don Cox on Tue 1st Jul 2003 16:49 UTC

""yet MOS lacks a HD preperation program"

Absolutely wrong."

And in any case both MorphOS and AmigaOS are still under development and are steadily filling in the gaps. It is unhelpful to pick some feature which is not yet complete and use it as a reason for dismissing the whole OS.

The teams working on MorphOS, AmigaOS 4 and AROS have all put in a tremendous amount of work during the past few years, which is beginning to show real substantial results. In many cases people have worked for no financial reward.

Respect is due, not name calling.

Bill and Raquel
by mario on Tue 1st Jul 2003 22:57 UTC

I had a couple of short e-mail exchanges with these folks, and I think these are some cool folks. Very friendly and committed!

Now, something I asked in the AmigaOS 4.0 thread, but wasn't answered: can AmigaOS 4.0 run the old Amiga apps?

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on Tue 1st Jul 2003 23:36 UTC

"Now, something I asked in the AmigaOS 4.0 thread, but wasn't answered: can AmigaOS 4.0 run the old Amiga apps?"

Yes, it can run 68k Amiga programs directly if they don't bang on the hardware, e.g. skip past drivers to access graphics chips, soundcards, etc. If the program runs on an Amiga with graphics card and OS3.9, there's a good chance it'll run on OS4 as well.

If you want to run old A500 games or such, you'll have to use an emulator such as UAE, but there might come a way to run such apps in closer integration with the OS than you would have with WinUAE.

AmigaOS4 handles 68k programs differently from MorphOS. MorphOS uses a sandbox approach and runs the programs in a separate kernel scheduler IIRC.
AmigaOS4 merges PPC tasks and 68k emulated tasks in the same scheduler making it virtually transparent to libraries and the 68k programs can have the same amount of communication with the OS as the new PPC programs have. The user won't be able to tell the difference between 68k and PPC programs except speed.

As an example the current demonstrations of AmigaOS4 shows that the GUI system intuition.library is still 68k emulated, while running on the PPC with a PPC kernel. All you can see is that it runs slower than if compiled natively, but the integration is full-level.
The demonstration on July 5th should show a PPC native GUI though.

I don't know about the user experience for running 68k programs in MorphOS.

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Nate Downes on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 00:02 UTC

Ben Hermans confirmed recently that it will run only old 68k apps that do not bang the hardware. Existing PPC apps (namely those based on WarpOS or PowerUP) will not run at this time, and modules that use these PPC libraries will not run at all. (to run them in the future they are planning to use a runtime loader, which then prevents the use of loadable libraries, devices and datatypes)

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Nate Downes on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 00:07 UTC

Uh... you got that backwards. It is MOS that presents a unified 68k/PPC setup, where PPC and 68k can run side-by-side without the app being any the aware. AOS4 is using a memory-mapped approach, where the app *MUST* know if the code in question is 68k or PPC or else it will not work at all. For reference, please check out:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1056899762&category=forum&star...

Read all of the comments, especially those by Ben Hermans, the head of Hyperion. (The company making AOS4)

As for speed, even without the JIT installed, AOS apps fly under MOS.

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Sigbjørn Skjæret on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 00:15 UTC

Now now, Nate, don't get carried away... ;)

The whole point about the memory-mapped approach is so that apps don't have to know if the code is 68k or PPC, unfortunately that backfires in the case of WarpUP applications/libraries because they look like 68k, so they get loaded wrong...


- CISC

Re: Bill and Raquel
by itix on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 00:31 UTC

"I don't know about the user experience for running 68k programs in MorphOS."

I'm browsing this forum from MorphOS using good old IBrowse 1.22. Runs faster than on any real Amiga.

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 00:46 UTC

"I'm browsing this forum from MorphOS using good old IBrowse 1.22. Runs faster than on any real Amiga."

Is it necessary to do anything specific to run 68k programs on MorphOS? Can you completely transparently install 68k programs?

Re: Bill and Raquel
by Alkis Tsapanidis on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 01:14 UTC

Everything runs transparently as if it was a native program.

Re: Bill and Raquel
by itix on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 02:08 UTC

"Is it necessary to do anything specific to run 68k programs on MorphOS?"

Of course not. Since you run PPC apps in same sandbox (A/Box) as 68k apps, everything is transparent to user.

In the future when there is Q/Box things can change of course. You cant play on two sandboxes at same time without quirks ;)

Re: mario
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 05:21 UTC

The last places you would like to ask about AOS4 is on forums and IRC channels relating to a competing product. Tons of people doing this have gotten the complete wrong answers intentionally this way... Also OSNews has dedicated Amiga forums for this and all questions are answered within reasonable time there.

To answer your question, yes AmigaOS4 does run PPC and 68k AmigaOS applications fully transparently to the user. Also older WarpOS applications are easily adjusted for AmigaOS4. For example Hyperion will adjust all their games for AmigaOS4, but if a significant number of 3rd party WarpOS software remains unadjusted for AmigaOS4 usage, a compatibility layer may be introduced in the future, just like there is such a layer to run PowerUP software on WarpOS (ppclibemu).

Competing Product?!
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 10:07 UTC


Hi Mike, OS4 is not even a product yet and it can hardly be considered competing. Now before you pull off the gloves think about this...

We are willing to support the OS4 effort as we have AROS, LinuxPPC, OpenBeOS, NewOS, etc., etc. The "bouquet in the Pegasos vase"...remember? The Pegasos uses OpenFirmware, an industry standard applied by IBM, Sun, Motorola, etc. To be successful in a broader market this is a key feature we have promoted and are finding is essential to broad acceptance.

Have a look at this example: http://uk.geocities.com/david260179/

We could do something like that for OS4.

Why the Dell not?! :-D

The idea today is to begin to build up credibility outside the old CBM Community. We think OSNews is a good place to do this, so we will begin to rally folks from over there here more and more. Remember whatever the OS, you need hardware to start with, then an OS and applications. In the end, the applications are what drives everyone back to the hardware. There is a delicate juggling act to manage. If we can establish credibility in a number of OS Communities things will start to move ahead with more than just the sum of the parts...

What we feel you and others have missed in this process is that in the end the Pegasos ( http://www.pegasosppc.com ) supports many operating systems. This associates more developers to the platform and more "brands" at the same time. This gives credibility and creates an environment for innovation and cross-OS pollination. For example, we already have some neat BeOS features being ported to MorphOS. When you have the hardware, OS, and applications conveniently interconnected things can happen faster and more closely coordinated. That is the secret here. In the end, MorphOS benefits because it is the "smallest" common denominator for each Pegasos through Genesi. There is no one else in the market that can do this...

Our positioning?!

Again, why Choose A Pegasos? Why The Dell Not!

We are the "ultimate Geek machine!" as Eugenia suggested here on OSNews. Do Geeks want to support clone outfits that benefit from pumping out the cheapest boxes with the least innovation?!? No, they want to go with a Company that - for all its size and faults - is ready to innovate like crazy -- WITH THEM! Dell are parasites making commodity products. They do not advance the state of the art of the industry. They do make it a bit cheaper and that could be an argument for the mass market (and we are NOT there yet), but you get what you pay for (and pay for, and pay for...). There is a MAJOR Geek factor working here that will serve to raise all OS boats...

We think the First Computing Revolution of the 21st Century is about to begin. The Pegasos will be what kicks it all off -- freedom, flexibility and value! Cool Computing!

Just a last word for now...have a look at Micro Warehouse ( http://www.warehouse.com ). When we get them distributing the Pegasos the Alternate OS Communities will have a BIG shot to change the way things are. Remember Linux on the Pegasos and the "Trojan Horse" (MorphOS partitioned on the harddrive or something else...?) ...and remember the bootable Game CD for Mac owners that runs on MorphOS from the CD with reconfiguring the harddrive. Mainstream!!! Bringing something new to the market demands you leverage off things already there.

So, Mike take your best shot if you want, but you beating yourself to death. Turn some of that energy into something positive...;-) Glad you wrote about something else today beyond the usual patter!

Cheers!

Raquel and Bill
Genesi

Re: mario
by itix on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 10:59 UTC

"Tons of people doing this have gotten the complete wrong answers intentionally this way..."

You are mistaken. We are not intentionally giving wrong answers. But you must understand we cant know every single detail from some other OS. Though, I have seen OS4 users giving wrong information regarding MOS on their forums but I think it is understandable. I dont feel offended.

Innovation?
by Dave on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 11:02 UTC

"Do Geeks want to support clone outfits that benefit from pumping out the cheapest boxes with the least innovation?!? No, they want to go with a Company that - for all its size and faults - is ready to innovate like crazy -- WITH THEM! Dell are parasites making commodity products. They do not advance the state of the art of the industry. They do make it a bit cheaper and that could be an argument for the mass market (and we are NOT there yet), but you get what you pay for (and pay for, and pay for...). There is a MAJOR Geek factor working here that will serve to raise all OS boats... "

Right, fair enough, I can see what is innovative from a hardware perspective about the C=ONE project but I cannot see what is innovative about the Pegasos - when compared with a Dell.

Horse to water please :-)

Re: Product
by Don Cox on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 11:04 UTC

"OS4 is not even a product yet"

A product which is under development and has been announced and publicised for release is definitely a product. For example, the G5 Macs, or "The Return of the King".

Delays in the release do not affect this, it is still a product so long as it is being marketed (in the case of AOS 4, with screen grabs, the current tour, a users club, etc).

D&D
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:08 UTC


Hi Dave, the Pegasos and MorphOS is just a part of the puzzle. Innovation comes when all the pieces come together. We cannot even tell you what they all are yet...that is also part of the point. The C=One is admittedly a labor of love and worthy of praise, but it is not about the future. The Pegasos can be.

Water to Pegasos please ;-)

Don, we are not slamming OS4. The AmigaOS has an illustrious history. AmigaOS4 on a PPC is another story. When it is in a box or running natively and completely as an OS -- it is a product. Perhaps, they would like some help? We are here.

Morph is a concept, not just an OS...;-)

Check it out:

http://www.morphzone.org/shows

Have a great day!

Raquel and Bill

As far as I can see, we have vaporware vs. vaporware
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:23 UTC

You cannot buy a Pegasos I or II motherboard today.
You cannot buy an AmigaOne motherboard today.

"Cannot" meaning directly from any USA website that lists the product in stock. The Pegasos USA website doesn't even have a store, just some vaportext.

Neither the latest versions of MorphOS or AmigaOS are shipping today. And it's these latest versions that everyone is waiting for.

So we've got Genesi vaporware vs. AmigaInc vaporware.

But teams were too stupid to leverage existing PowerPC Mac hardware of which there are millions of working debugged computers. And as we know, the Mac uses Open Firmware.

I bet a nice dual G4 system would run MorphOS or AmigaOS quite nicely. And could have done so... for the past what.. 3 years or so? And Linux... for the past few years or so. And real MacOS... at full speed with full compatibility... lots of PowerPC tools on MacOS.... Hmmmm. Someone please tell me why using proprietary hardware was so smart?

Now, the Morph people seem quite a bit friendlier and calmer than the Amiga Inc people. Both teams have a lot of ego.

So far as I can see, that's about it.

More friendly vaporware vs. less friendly vaporware.

re: Product
by Wayne Hunt on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:24 UTC

First of all, BBRV, thanks for the interview. I personally found it most enlightening and congratulate you on the professionalism shown.

That being said, Hi Don!,

"A product which is under development and has been announced and publicised for release is definitely a product. For example, the G5 Macs, or "The Return of the King"."

Here's another example of where a difference in perspective counts. I would consider both OS4 and the G5 Macintosh in the same sentence. Both have been announced, but things that have not yet seen the light of day are called vaporware until released. THEN they are considered products. That has been the way of the industry for at least a decade now. It's called "Believe it when I see it" mode, and in the Amiga community of 2003 it's the only safe way to think..

Besides, you seem to be forgetting that OS4 has not even been seen for the AmigaOne platform, and it would be a good, even money bet that AmigaOS will not be seen for the AmigaOne before the end of the year or even Q1/2004 in any form other than an early beta demo.

How much longer should people wait for a "true successor to the classic Amiga platform" when one is already here? Having used the Pegasos platform now with both MorphOS and Linux, I can tell you that it is an amazing machine, and very much "The return of the King" where the Amiga is concerned.

If "you" (meaning everyone here who's willing to trash the Pegasos) haven't had the opportunity to use one, I'd ask that you take a moment and either plan to attend one of the upcoming events, or find a friend who will let you try theirs out. I guarantee that if you're willing to look past the name on the box, you will walk away feeling the same as I do.

Sincerely,

Wayne Hunt
Amiga.org

re: vaporware versus vaporware
by Wayne Hunt on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:29 UTC

"You cannot buy a Pegasos I or II motherboard today."

After having that very question myself, I checked with several retailers yesterday (from the list on pegasosppc.com). I can most certainly tell you that your sentence above is untrue, at least where the Pegasos I is concerned.

Though supplies of the Pegasos I are shrinking fast, there are still a few of them available through the listed resellers. Can't find one near you? I'm sure if you wrote e-mail to BBRV, he would make sure you could get one right away.

Wayne Hunt
Amiga.org

re: i know vaporware when i see it
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:39 UTC

This text is verbatim from the *one* USA reseller listed on the PegasosPPC website, Magnetic Systems. Bold emphasis added by me.

Note that there is no store, no way to see what is available, just a web page with what I copied below. Oh, there is a "review" of MorphOS, too.

Thank you for visiting our Pegasos/Morphos support and sales site. This site is under construction. In the near future we will be a reseller of the Pegasos computer system made by Genesi. We will be providing complete "turn key" type solutions with a variety of fully configured and built Pegasos computers running a variety of operating systems. Once the Pegasos 2 boards are produced and we have more concrete details information will be posted here. We will also provide complete tech support for these pre built and configured machines. You will have your choice of high, middle, or low end hardware and case specifications along with a choice of operating systems like Linux, BeOS, MacOS, MorphOS, and others. Multiple operating system designs will be offered as well. More on all of this to come....

Until then this site will focus on support issues, articles, and editorial content. This is intended as a resource for the Pegasos community and to show our commitment to the marketplace. We intend to have a lot of interesting and informative information in the upcoming weeks. Including reviews of the upcoming Superbundle of Software, the G4 module, Morphos 1.4, installing and running Mac On Linux, and more... there will be a couple of surprises thrown in as well.

I have written a review of the Pegasos computer and MorphOS 1.3 in the "BetaTester 2" state. This review will be updated with the impending release of MOS 1.4 and other software and hardware.

Please enjoy

magnetic

New York City


From the above, you can still see everything is in limbo, pending some future happenings. This is why I call it vaporware. It simply isn't here yet.

Now, I'm not saying that the owners of Genesi can't scare me up a board. But that's not real customer ship, so the vaporware label still stands.

And as I mentioned a while back, I am waiting for the Pegasos II systems as they are right around the corner. I like what MorphOS is doing and am planning to attend AmiWest to see both vapor platforms with my own eyes.

Though if MBouma succeeded in his quest and got AmigaOS 4.0 running on a 17" Powerbook, that would be very interesting to me :-)

Re: Competing Product?!
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 12:55 UTC

> Hi Mike, OS4 is not even a product yet and it can hardly
> be considered competing

Very good Bill Buck. So you will now *finally* stop posting messages with regard to AmigaOS4, AmigaDE and AmigaOne products?

Example: "Oh yes, you want to buy a G4 A1? Wake up people! Read the disclaimers on the YDL site. Do you understand what needs to happen before this will? There is a Pegasos G4 now." (04-Dec-2002)

http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=148&si=1

The fact is that I personally know various people owning a G4 powered AmigaOne board but there is still nobody using G4 powered Pegasos boards!

If you consider all this to be a non-issue, then please don't mention these rival products like you have done in hundred of public messages during the recent past. ;)

And yes AmigaOS4 is still an unfinished product, but one could easily argue the same with regard to MOS. ;) What I have seen of the two OSes so far, AmigaOS4 when finished will be by far the more more feature complete solution available to Amiga interested individuals. ;)

Quick help the Mikies!
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:00 UTC


Mike, you posted here first in your normal style...:-( When you have OS4 running natively on anything, please let us know. We will be very interested. Mike, there has been a G4 running on the Pegasos since November of 2001 (Cologne, bplan booth) , but that is the whole point -- it does not work well! Do you really want us to clarify that here?

Michael, you can obtain a Pegasos I from a number of Resellers under the Phoenix Summer Sale Promotion for 299 Euros. You can even buy one in Poland if you want and have it shipped to you! http://www.pegasos.pl If you really want one we can even organize that for you ourselves!

Sincerely,

Raquel and Bill :-)



Re: Quick help the Mikies!
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:10 UTC

> but that is the whole point -- it does not work well!

That's your problem and your problem alone. I know people who are very happy with their G4 AmigaOne systems and everything works as it should be. ;)

There is still a lack of Altivec optimised PPCLinux software, but the performance is exactly like could be expected. ;)

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/pekosbil/a1benchmarks.htm

thanks for the news
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:14 UTC

I am glad to see the Pegasos is available, even if from Europe. There is a "can do" attitude here which I find refreshing. Then again, I did say MorphOS had the friendlier vaporware :-)

So that I can see what vaporware has the more compelling vision and the better vibe... the AmiWest show is a prerequisite to making a decision on waiting for a Pegasos II or purchasing a Pegasos I around the time of the show.

Or perhaps going with AmigaOnPowerbook if it turns out to be more than a fantasy.

I just don't want to end up with some junkware motherboard that isn't half as good as a PC for running Linux and costs more than an Asus Opteron workstation motherboard (w/o processor).

It's a shame that MorphOS and AmigaOS do not run on the same hardware. Or Apple hardware.

I hope both Amiga and Morph are able to make good progress by the time of the show. And I will see you all there.

benchmark myopia
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:25 UTC

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/pekosbil/a1benchmarks.htm

I see both Amiga teams like pissing on each other so much they have completely lost perspective.

It doesn't matter, G3, or G4. Both systems were absolutely trounced by a 3 year old Athlon chip.

To Mike or not to Mike!
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:28 UTC


Michael, glad we turned that situation around...;-)

Of course, we do want to have MorphOS running on Macs, but that will be "next" ...;-)

Anyway, we should have an eager A1 owner releasing a URL soon for a MorphOS download for the A1. At least they can try it out while they are waiting for something else...

As for the G4 today with the Pegasos, we posted something on a thread at http://www.amiga.org at the very end of the Interview which sparked this whole thread (thanks Eugenia!). Click on the title link here and then follow until the end of the interview...click again on this:

"Comment on this interview in this story link"

...follow that until the end.

It clears up the history a bit that some so desperately want hidden, but really, who cares...let's get the show on the road!

So, while you are visiting amiga.org please check out this thread:

http://amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9320&forum=6

Cheers!

Raquel and Bill :-)

re: benchmark myopia
by Wayne Hunt on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:41 UTC

"It doesn't matter, G3, or G4. Both systems were absolutely trounced by a 3 year old Athlon chip."

Absolutely true, and I have to say that until the recent price cuts by Genesi for the Pegasos motherboard, that benchmark did dissuade me very strongly from the PPC path. Since the price cuts, this is no longer an issue. I remembered a couple of key points however that make the Pegasos a worthy purchase;

1) The Amiga has never, ever been totally about speed (meaning mHZ). It's about small, fast, light, and powerful.

2) It's very difficult to put an Athlon or any other x86 device in an embedded device due to heat and power constraints.

3) The current price points of the Pegasos I and indeed, even Pegasos II platforms means that we -- as developers -- would be able to build things like "Media Center PC's" for under the magic $500 holy grail, UNLIKE Microsoft's $1500 to $3000 Media Center PC's.

After all, as long as there is even a little compatibility with the desktop machines (which is up to the developer to write), the kind of person who would buy an embedded DVR/PC for their living room hardly cares whether or not it's running Windows, Linux, AmigaOS, MorphOS or "BubbasredneckmagicOS".

4) The current licensing scheme and difficulty in obtaining development materials from Amiga Inc along with the pricing of the AmigaOne motherboard and the dongle dependency from Hyperion and Eyetech make the AmigaOne a far less usable candidate for future development of embedded devices such as a Media Center DVR/PC.

Re: To Mike or not to Mike!
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:41 UTC

@ BBRV

I would prefer that you and your followers would keep me out of these MOS discussions. This thread started very wrong with immediately someone trying to be personally offensive towards me. I hope you understand that your personally tainted headings for your messages does not do anyone any good neither, it just makes the "community" and its "leaders" look like a bunch of children.

Just concentrate solely on your products and business instead of your rivals and I am sure both communities could live together in peace.

RE: To Mike, or not to Mike
by Wayne Hunt on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 13:53 UTC

"This thread started very wrong with immediately someone trying to be personally offensive towards me."

Mike,

Completely in the spirit of friendship and laisse faire, let me say that on this, you and I agree. There is no excuse for anyone on either "side" to act the way of the initial comment in this thread. I can understand your frustration with the start of this thread, but please step back, examine the situation and admit two points here which you at least appear to be avoiding;

1) Your absolute stance and willingness to trounce Genesi and their products based on your absolute, unwavering beliefs makes you very much a prime target for trolls, just as my hard-earned "hatred" of "Fleecy" and certain Amiga Inc management gives others a reason to start competing Amiga websites....

2) None of this in regards to the trolls is BBRV's fault. So far, I have seen you in this thread come out almost rabidly to attack and defend, which is your standard MO. Live and let live. Be the bigger man and all that... After all, if your beloved OS is everything you believe it to be, there is no reason for your continued demonstration of insecurity towards Genesi, BBRV, and their products.

Have a great day,

Wayne Hunt
Amiga.org

It took me a moment to see the nut you had me squirrel around for, but find it I did. That is very interesting news.

I will still visit AmiWest and clearly articulate all the right things to say at that moment, but will wait patiently for what is soon to come.

And if you like me, I do want a good plot of land on the island.

RE: To Mike, or not to Mike
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 14:08 UTC

> insecurity towards Genesi, BBRV, and their products.

Come on now. Insecurity? I just state that they should mind their own business.

Genesi is a very small company, I believe our family business is worth much more than Genesi (BPlan+Thendic).

When BB and his employees would stop aiming their FUD at Amiga and their partners, I have no more issues with them. MOS is of little interest to me but I would not mind it if the MOS team ports the OS to AmigaOne hardware. ;)

thinking about my furry cat
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 14:22 UTC

1) The Amiga has never, ever been totally about speed (meaning mHZ). It's about small, fast, light, and powerful.

The Amiga was always about speed. That was the one big differentiator vs. the Atari ST -- all the Amiga's cooler than Jesus custom hotrod chips that enabled the Amiga to scream while the Atari was left panting in its dust.

The current Amiga designs do not have any custom chips or hardware design that supports high-performance computing with a low-mhz processor. Sure, the OS is better. But that only goes so far without hardcore Mhz to back it up.

So I would think that more Mhz would be a good thing for Amiga. And it does look like at least Pegasos/Genesi/Phoenix will be making some serious strides forward in the Mhz department shortly.

2) It's very difficult to put an Athlon or any other x86 device in an embedded device due to heat and power constraints.

Uh huh. The Amiga was put in how many embedded devices? I certainly don't remember many from back in the day. Now, PowerPC is certainly used in many embedded devices. But none of these uses is what an Amiga would be used for (network processor, car chip, etc.)

x86 compatible processors are used in a multitude of tiny little notebooks from Japan, low power blade servers, and cutting edge little brick computers. And the bulk of all kiosks. Ever heard of VIA, Eden, and mini-ITX? That's pretty damn small, low-power, low-heat, and reasonably speedy.

3) The current price points of the Pegasos I and indeed, even Pegasos II platforms means that we -- as developers -- would be able to build things like "Media Center PC's" for under the magic $500 holy grail, UNLIKE Microsoft's $1500 to $3000 Media Center PC's.

Microsoft always comes out with something expensive first. And then the system gets commoditized and the price drops. Do you honestly think Microsoft could not come out with a price similar to what they did with the XBox? I think that retails for $200 or so and it has everything you need for a "media center PC" except a TV tuner.

After Opteron motherboards drop in price a bit, you will be able to get a 1.4Ghz 64-bit Opteron w/1MB cache and full motherboard for same/less than a Pegasos I PowerPC board with a G3 chip.

There is not much that can compare with the volumes in the PC world and win on price.

After all, as long as there is even a little compatibility with the desktop machines (which is up to the developer to write), the kind of person who would buy an embedded DVR/PC for their living room hardly cares whether or not it's running Windows, Linux, AmigaOS, MorphOS or "BubbasredneckmagicOS".

Not true. The person buying one of these systems will certainly want it to be compatible with something as good as a TiVO. And will want the data they record to be transportable to other systems. Right now, there is nothing on the market as good as a TiVO. There are tons of DRM issues to be faced when it comes to video data portability and the larger players will all have the upper hand.

4) The current licensing scheme and difficulty in obtaining development materials from Amiga Inc along with the pricing of the AmigaOne motherboard and the dongle dependency from Hyperion and Eyetech make the AmigaOne a far less usable candidate for future development of embedded devices such as a Media Center DVR/PC.

Except that paranoid people seem to get along well with other paranoid people. The DRM people may see the dongle and actually relax, especially if the Amiga IP paranoia people start talking to the Media IP paranoia people. It will be a bonding experience.

I think someone has got to stop thinking "Media PC". I don't think many people outside of the "Media" give a shit about a "Media PC". You've got to have deep pockets and deep connections to play in this space because of all the IP issues. There is a reason there is no cheap PC-based DVR available... and it is not price.

I'd like to see some of the more interesting Phoenix ideas come to fruition. And that may mean jumping to hardware other than custom PPC boards.

Dear Mike...
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 14:29 UTC



Mike, just do us all a favor and go somewhere else...no hard feelings.

The is no conspiracy here. Genesi is our business. We are here to promote Genesi, the Pegasos and MorphOS. Anyone posting "FUD" does not work for the Company or directly on any of our projects. Wayne is right. Can you please move to a higher level?

Congratulations on your business. Is that Amiga Inc. or is it something else just out of curiosity? Do you have a IT related company? Are you a developer? Engineer? You can send us an email personally if you want.

Best regards,
Raquel and Bill :-)

Re: Dear Mike...
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 15:01 UTC

> Mike, just do us all a favor and go somewhere else...no
> hard feelings.

I don't intend to post onto any MOS forums or reply to any MOS articles. I am an Amiga enthusiast and MOS is of less interest to me than for example Amithlon.

In fact I suggested to the person I was replying to, not to ask such questions in MOS threads. Ask AOS4 questions in our Amiga forums instead. Nathaniel, one of your employees has been so "kind" to answer many AmigaOS related questions, but somehow I don't think he's the right person judging from his past answers. ;)

> Is that Amiga Inc. or is it something else just out of
> curiosity?

Something else. ;) Wouldn't you otherwise have known it already. ;) You seem to know about Amiga's corporate structure and financials better than anyone else, right? ;)

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=430

Garry Hare...
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 15:22 UTC

Yes Mike, we had hoped that with Garry Hare joining Amiga Inc. the incessant patter of people like you would fade away and we could all try to move constructively forward into the future. Unfortunately, the "Community" scared him away. We hope that does not happen to others as we move ahead. You are sadly doing a good job of that here.Thanks Mike.

Sincerely,

Raquel and Bill

Re: Genesi
by itix on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 15:33 UTC

At least Genesi got working telephone and provide full street address on their website ( http://www.genesi.lu ).

RE: Garry Hare...
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 15:38 UTC

I believe Garry has a different take on events. ;)

Anyway, I believe we can agree that this is getting way off topic and that we should leave it be. You and your employees just mind your own business and I will not post to MOS forums or reply to MOS topics here on OSNews. OK?

Details for itix...
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 16:09 UTC


Hi itix, the full details are here:

http://www.pegasosppc.com/quick_help.php

See "who is Genesi?"

:-)

Mike, neither Raquel or I, nor any of the Genesi Team posted anything like that here or anywhere else. We do not initiate or condone this kind of activity. You know that. Nevertheless, we hope that all of this trolling gives way to more sensible participation here and in other places. You would do well to follow your own advice...;-) BTW, Garry is welcome to post here and say anything he wants. If you think he feels differently than we indicated, you should have no problem organizing his rebuttal.

Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill

@ Mike Bouma
by mario on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 16:28 UTC

Hello Mike,


thanks for the information you shared with me. As for the personal attacks you feel have been directed at you, you should try to be a bit detached and notice that it was you who started with a rather unpleasant overtone in your first post.

Re: Details for itix...
by Mike Bouma on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 16:52 UTC

@ BBRV

> Mike, neither Raquel or I, nor any of the Genesi Team
> posted anything like that here or anywhere else.

You got me confused now, often you state that you have no interest in Amiga Inc and then post something like publicly:

"The whole AmigaDE lawsuit was just a means to shut Bill McEwen up and force Amiga Inc. into a settlement that might include us obtaining the rights to the Amiga trademarks and the classic OS"

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1051380286&category=news&start...

And you (or a troll) stated publicly that Bill McEwen was fired by the main Amiga shareholders (which includes Bill himself, Randy and Fleecy).

Also:

"What is the big fuss about? Amiga Inc. was headed for disaster. The main shareholders have stepped in and are now going to clean things up."

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1051380286&category=news&start...

So now you claim such statements weren't yours?

> We do not initiate or condone this kind of activity.

Then we at least share some business values. ;) Hopefully we get that troll who hijacked your nick at ANN. ;)

It wasn't us at AmigaWorld.net like you once implied:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=405&foru...

> BTW, Garry is welcome to post here and say anything he
> wants. If you think he feels differently than we
> indicated, you should have no problem organizing his
> rebuttal.

Garry is a professional and shows much responsability, so he will not get involved in childish public flamefests or mud slinging. (Luckily)


@ mario

If you know anything about the Amiga and MOS communities, then it is obvious that asking about AOS4 within a MOS thread is asking for trouble... Would this thread not have started with personally aimed attacks and Genesi employees answering AOS4 related questions I would not have participated. ;)

FUD and FACT
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 17:48 UTC

Mike, you have outdone yourself as usual. Please continue to do so if you want and disprove any of the facts that were posted in response to the contrary statements that provoke the comments.

You are Mr. FUD! :-D

Maybe you better quit while you are behind...:-)

R&B

Eugenia!
by bbrv on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 17:58 UTC


Eugenia, can you moderate Mike Bouma to "omission" instead of "submission" status?!

:-D

at least i don't feel nearly as bad
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:42 UTC

I started something dumb a while back with Gil Bates vis-a-vis Microsoft, oil/gas companies and integrity/ethics that I should have kept off the public boards.

Now, I see others waging war over matters even more mundane.

It restores my faith in forgiving human folly. Including my own :-)

"What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly - that is the first law of nature." -- Voltaire

v Goddamnit
by VIC on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:21 UTC
ppc/x86
by bla on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 06:39 UTC

>It doesn't matter, G3, or G4. Both systems were absolutely trounced by a 3 year old Athlon chip.

1 1/2 years old was that Athlon chip btw.
Pegasos isn't solely about MHz power but about computing experience, it's not a power gamer's platform.
Speed competition with x86 can only emerge when there will be a possibility to use G5 (next year?) so
for now it's "best buy" on the PPC side (you hardly find a cheaper new Mac) and a development platform
for apps which could use all of the future CPU power (they even had plans for dual-CPU cards, but
MorphOS as main OS cannot make use of it yet).

re: bla
by Michael on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 07:18 UTC

One of the nuggets that the culties had me go look for was the "64-bit kernel". If so, that likely means "G5".

And like all good culties, bb+rv have some slick moves and aces up their sleeves.

Amiga... was a power gamer's platform. It was the best gaming platform, hands-down, bar-none. Not to mention multimedia.

It seems that many of the "associated with Amiga" people of today never had a real Amiga, never saw any of the Amiga demos, and never played the games or toasted the vids. The Amiga rocked. I managed to get 1/2 my dorm floor into my dorm room once to play/watch an Archon tournament. It helped that I had the Amiga hooked into my kickin stereo system :-)

Without special hardware -- which the Amiga had in spades -- these new Amiga clones seem weak. They are just PowerPC-based PC clones. And not even current PowerPC. When you lag behind in Apple, you know you lag.

Anyhow, I'm waiting to see what happens by AmiWest and will take it from there. I'd love for there to be a real Amiga platform again. But I'm not holding my breath. The new folks on the scene all have some strange angles they are playing. There is a lot of dirt under the carpet it seems and the only thing that will let make it better is both sides getting working products to market and then letting the market decide who is the champion.