Linked by Stuart MacKenzie on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 18:31 UTC
Apple Are you a long time Windows user curious about the Apple Switch campaign? Are you wondering if you should try it? Read below for my experience with the whole thing... twice. Just over a week ago I purchased a new 12" Apple PowerBook G4...
Order by: Score:
The reason one purchases a Mac...
by Bascule on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 18:50 UTC

I am at a point where I want something to work as described. I want functional tools that help make my everyday life easier and more enjoyable. I think that Apple is leading the pack with this philosophy. Apple has definitely sold me on the concept of the digital hub, and my PowerBook reflects that. I don't think of my PowerBook as much as a computer as it is a tool that helps make my daily life integrated and simpler. I am looking forward to a long relationship with my new PowerBook and Apple.

Macs are and always have been a platform for accomplishing creative efforts, designed to be unobtrusive and let its user accomplish their work with a minimum level of interruption.

Apple is applying that same methodology to digital content management. A Mac lets you easily organize (and manipulate) your photos, music, and video in an unobtrusive, simple, and elegant manner.

re: last paragraph
by James Warkentin on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 18:53 UTC

yeah, let's hope this guy doesn't produce more kids. What kind of retard doesn't at least test drive a $3500 TiBook before he buys one? I am at a loss to rationalize this kind of behaviour. Is he trying to make the point that his disposable income level is too high?
His solution was to talk himself down to lower expectations, so that the machine's aesthetics could finally satisfy all of his computing requirements. That's just plain sad.

current events
by rockwell on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:05 UTC

Uh ... he saw an advertisement for a G4 Powerbook ... and only then realized OS X had been released?

Hasn't OS X been around a lot longer than that?

re: last paragraph
by DJ Jedi Jeff on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:06 UTC

What's sad is that you think your post was actually a rational argument.

Yes, it's a good idea when making a big purchase like a computer to evaluate how you are going to use it and make sure those needs will be met (and how much more money you will have to spend - like in new software - in the process).

Doing this kind of analysis is called "being realistic" and not "lowering expectations." It's what mature, intelligent people do. He screwed it up the first time. It's good to see that he didn't waste money twice.

Hmmm
by Me on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:07 UTC

Personally I would never buy overpriced inferior hardware no matter how shiny they make the icons. We have a bunch of MACs at work and they are all very slow compared to the comparably priced PCs we have. I'm sorry but it's true. Also ease of use has ceased to be an issue in our company...all the PCs just work. Period. We have almost no issues with them and adding hardware is a snap.

Software not sidegradeable
by Too lazy to register on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:11 UTC

I am surprised that he found out that he couldn't sidegrade his software from one platform to another after he bought it.

This is a huge barrier to me even considering an Apple. It is not that the software is not available, but it is a huge expense to replace all the statistics, publishing and other software with the Mac equivalents. It would be on the order of many, many, many thousands of dollars.

Too bad...for me.

RE: current events
by Stephen Smith on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:12 UTC

I think that he saw an ad for the iBook (the first one) and then realized that OS X had been released, but your argument still holds valid. He's a geek who uses Unix and he didn't know that OS X had been released? Even if you didn't even like Apple at the time, you still would have known that OS X had been released. Doesn't sound like much of a geek to me.

Re: Hmmm
by bytes256 on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:18 UTC

I have to agree with you from my (admittedly minimal) experience with Macs.

Also, plug and play issues on Windows are a huge myth. I think those go back to the Win 9x days. First of all, a considerable amount of hardware is supported out of the box on Windows XP. I'll admit Windows 2000 has about as much builtin hardware support as DOS.

Even for hardware that doesn't have drivers built into XP, it is trivial to install the drivers off of the disk that comes with it. Or even download of the Internet.

Name one piece of hardware that's CONSIDERABLY easier to install on a Mac than on Windows?

My roommate in college had a Mac, and I have to say that Mac OS X is probably the most brittle, crashiest *NIX I've ever seen. I can recall several instances where I had to go to drop to the command line for him, just to delete some files off his desktop. The GUI wouldn't let him.

There were also several times where it would just automatically reboot on him, lockup completely, or just become unusably slow, requiring a manual reboot.

From what I've experienced, I would have to say OS X is about on a par with Windows XP for stability, useability, and plug and play.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Too expensive
by Torrey on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:19 UTC

Well right now, i'm not making nearly enough to buy a mac. I would love to run OSX because for one I love the Aqua interface. Well the best I do now is run XP and RH9 and just customize the hell out of them to look like Aqua. The only upside is that if I get tired of the aqua look I can just change it pretty easily. I'm not sure you can do that on a mac. (though correct me if i'm wrong)

Well...
by WattsM on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:30 UTC

I've been running OS X exclusively for over a year and haven't had any significant problems. It may be well be the most crashiest Unix that I've used in that I have had to reboot it every once in a while--but "crashiest Unix" is pretty relative. There's nothing I've seen that makes it slow down over time as you described, although that's behavior I've certainly seen under Windows 2000 and previous. I haven't used XP enough to speak to it. My biggest problem with Windows in all the versions I've used (3.1, 95, NT 3.51, NT 4 and 2000) has been what I've dubbed "creeping crud syndrome": over time, during perfectly normal use (even somewhat conservative use), the system slowly becomes less stable. Invariably, 18-24 months after the initial install, I find myself doing a complete reinstall. (That's how I became a full-time BeOS user for a while.) For all the Mac's foibles, I haven't encountered this on any Macintosh operating system, and I've used System 6, System 7, MacOS 9.0-9.2 and OS X 10.1-10.2. (Pre-X versions of Mac OS could be made really unstable through extensions, but removing them was--usually!--pretty simple.)

I doubt there's significant differences in plug-and-play anymore. To me networking on the Mac is a bit easier to set up, but it's marginal (and I've watched a very Windows-savvy friend be utterly confused by the Mac way of doing things, so I'm aware it's partially learned behavior).

Re: Re: Hmmm
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:31 UTC

"Name one piece of hardware that's CONSIDERABLY easier to install on a Mac than on Windows?"

iPod


"My roommate in college had a Mac, and I have to say that Mac OS X is probably the most brittle, crashiest *NIX I've ever seen."

Thats funny, its never crashed on me and has been nothing but totally rock solid. Sounds like the problem is with your friend's computing ability (or rather... lack theirof)


"I can recall several instances where I had to go to drop to the command line for him, just to delete some files off his desktop. The GUI wouldn't let him.

I think you're lying. I've never heard of such an error.

price is right
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:32 UTC

"Well right now, i'm not making nearly enough to buy a mac."

Considering equally equipped hardware is nearly idential in price, you must not be making enough to buy a PC either.

Macs
by Zekaric on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:32 UTC

I found it tough to read through the sacrin of this ad... article. I too recently bought an Apple laptop. I went for the cheapest I could find with some extras. IBook 800MHz, 3xxMB Ram plus the extended warrantee. I passed on .MAC, I don't want another monthly fee.

I bought it mainly because I'm writing plugin's for a product I use. My main machine is still Windows based though.

My Gripes:
- Inconsistent LAF. Brushed metal and Aqua. Personally I would rather see everything one consisted look. Going with multiple looks just seems ugly in my opinion. I detest programs in windows that try to fancy up their interface. So windows isn't immune here either. And there is not option to force them to one or the other LAF.

- Keyboard handling. I'm a code monkey. In Windows EVERYTHING is keyboard navigatable. Ok not everything, there are exceptions. The Mac isn't consistent here. Newbees may like mousing around, I don't. There is not way to get to the menu via the keyboard. No "alt-f" to get to the file menu for instance. Either that or it eludes me. Anything that causes my fingers to move from the basic keyboard position will cause productivity problems.

- The touch pad on my iBook isn't as good as some other touch pads I've played with. But that's just getting niggly.

- The dock gets in the way. The iBook has limited screen real estate and anything that takes away from it is a pain. I could make it really small but then it becomes hard to use.

- Text drawing is god awful in some apps. There might be a setting that I have to use though so this may be a bogus gripe. (Code Warrior I thinking about at the moment.)

- The machine came with a couple of games. Neither of them recognize my cheap Logitech Rumble pad. The OS does recognize it as a HID but the games don't. ;)

My Praises:
- No regret in buying. Since I bought the cheapest I could find, I don't feel I overpaid for the machine. The packaging, the product, all are a touch above anything else I've dealt with. Most everything else that I buy for the computers I feel regret buying. Although I would figure I'd feel regret if I bought the super duper deluxe laptops. I dislike spending money but for what I got I felt good. (Ok so this is subjective.)

- OS is actually nice to use once you figure out some of the keyboard short cuts. It's just a matter of toss out what you know of Windows LAF and learning the Mac LAF. Graphically I like it but I've always sort of liked the Mac's look even if I didn't use it. This is no knock on Windows' new LAF. I like that too, I'm not comparing.

My neither here not theirs:
- I was going to gripe about office application problems. I didn't want to buy MS Office for the machine. I just noticed that OpenOffice.org has been release for the mac. Albeit using the X-Window hooks, I have yet to try it on the machine. I use OO.org on the windows machines so if it works as well on the Mac, I'll be happy.

- I had some games that had Windows/Mac CDs. StarCraft wouldn't install on the machine. Scabble did but it's basically a Macromedia Director game so it 'should' anyway. Hit and miss, mind you both needed the MacOS9 compatibility so it may be unfair to knock it.

I've only had the machine for a few months so far so I'm still working with it. I'm no end all be all source for this stuff.

about z mac - a switch parody
by mariuz on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:36 UTC

enjoy ;)
http://www.flickerdown.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3284

ps: first i didn't understood the movie but now have a smile
on my face

Re: Hmmm
by whaaa on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:40 UTC

"...We have a bunch of MACs at work and they are all very slow compared to the comparably priced PCs we have. I'm sorry but it's true. Also ease of use has ceased to be an issue in our company..."

Yeah, that ranks up there with "a friend of my cousin's boyfriend's brother in law said that he was told by a friend of his neighbor that his cousin's boyfriend's friend's mother saw...."

more gripes...
by Zekaric on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:40 UTC

- Mounting hard drives that belong to a windows machine. I can't get it to automount. I followed the steps they provided in the help doc which were clear and simple to follow. It just didn't work. Mounting a drive was simple enought though. I couldn't mount to my win2K machine though. I think because it doesn't have a 'guest' account. Can't see how I can connect to these machines as an existing account though. Still struggling here. ;)

- Can't check in source using cvs with a mounted drive on windows. Mind you this may be permissions on the windows machines but I couldn't figure it out.

- The help viewer is lousy with some documents. E.G. the Metrowerks CodeWarrior help docs. These docs often get stuck on the first help doc page and no matter what you do it just doesn't want to change to a link you've clicked. Thankfully the doc is PDF and HTML based so I end up using IE or Safari. Still not good though. No search options with the browsers.

Funny
by Roybatty on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:42 UTC

It's pretty funny how some people yearn so bad to be enveloped by Jobs' reality distortion field. I hope this guy doesn't meet any scientologists.

user experience
by TLy on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:46 UTC

Everyone will have different and varying experiences. If the author of the article had listen to what people say for or against Macs, he'd still be clueless as to whether or not it's worth trying out, because every platform has it's goods and bads.

As with any platform, your luck may vary, and people will have different experiences they'll want to share. My first experience with a modern Mac was horrible. Granted I was using OSX 10.1 at the time. But when 10.2 came around, it was a significant improvement, enough to make me switch completely and it's now my main system at home.

Unfortunately the only way to really know if you'll like Macs or not, is to actually buy one and use it for an extended period of time. I'm talking much longer than just a test drive at the store. The pitfall with this approach is that these machines are expensive, and if you run into bad luck and have a bad experience with it, sure you'll feel like it was a bad investment. With PCs though, I never feel bad if a system turns out to be bad because I can always scrap the parts as backup or replacements for other systems, and some cases build a whole new system with some of the previous parts. The same can't be done on the Mac. You really rely on warrenty and supoprt. My iMac and iBook are the only systems I've ever purchased extended warrenty for.

user experience
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:55 UTC

"The pitfall with this approach is that these machines are expensive, and if you run into bad luck and have a bad experience with it, sure you'll feel like it was a bad investment."

Thankfully, no more expensive than a comperably equipped PC.

Re: user experience
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 19:57 UTC

"With PCs though, I never feel bad if a system turns out to be bad because I can always scrap the parts as backup or replacements for other systems, and some cases build a whole new system with some of the previous parts. The same can't be done on the Mac."

Why not?

You can't do so for the Mac all in one units... As can be said with the PC all in one units. But Macs can be scrapped for parts too. You're comment was pretty much right-on until you got to that point.

RE: RE: Hmmm
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:00 UTC

> "I can recall several instances where I had to go to drop to > the command line for him, just to delete some files off his > desktop. The GUI wouldn't let him.

> I think you're lying. I've never heard of such an error.

Well, I am not the original poster, but I can testify it to being true. Friend of mine had the same problem, I had to teach him some basic console commands. It only happened to his desktop files though...

Re: RE: RE: Hmmm
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:03 UTC

"Well, I am not the original poster, but I can testify it to being true. Friend of mine had the same problem, I had to teach him some basic console commands. It only happened to his desktop files though..."

Are you sure you're not talking about files that are on the hard drive? It is possible to have problems deleting files from the hard drive because of permissions issues.

I am a Mac system administrator and have never come across files not being able to be deleted from the desktop unless they were locked... but thats an easy fix... just get-info on the file and unlock it.

I'm sure it was something simple like that.

Re: Anonymous (IP: 12.105.181.---)
by bytes256 on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:05 UTC

"I can recall several instances where I had to go to drop to the command line for him, just to delete some files off his desktop. The GUI wouldn't let him.

>>[/i]I think you're lying. I've never heard of such an error.[/i]

Yupp, I'm lying, because I have nothing better to do than bash Macs all day.

Just because you've never heard of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I most certainly did have to delete some files off of his desktop through the terminal window. I believe those files were failed/corrupted downloads off of the internet that he couldn't delete because Mac OS X thought the files were still in use.

That was not just a single fluke either. I had to do that on at least three occasions for him.

Oh, and BTW to all the people complaining about the following comment I made:

My roommate in college had a Mac, and I have to say that Mac OS X is probably the most brittle, crashiest *NIX I've ever seen.

This is to be taken as, compared to Linux and *BSD and Solaris (yes I have used all of them at some point for considerable amounts of time) it is noticeably crashier and more brittle. I never said it was overall really crashy, just the fact that it crashed at all, is unusual for a *NIX from my experience. This puts it about on a level with WinXP for stability. (Yes I know, with bad drivers XP can be terrible in the crash department, but that is caused almost entirely by bad drivers! Apple doesn't have that excuse, since they control all the hardware and software.)

Don't take my comments as a "Mac bash-fest" they are just observations that prevent me from seeing Macs as being superior to PCs. I don't feel that they are inferior either. Actually, they're pretty much on par with each other, depending upon what you wanna do with your computer.

No thanks
by Jack on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:08 UTC

While Macintoshes do seem to be nice machines, personally I would never touch one just so I wouldn't become associated with the "Mac community." From my experience with them, they tend be a bit snobbish, standoffish, and will gleefully overlook any significant flaw and support Steve Jobs until Doomsday, but yet continually bash Windows and Windows users as "losers."

Re: bytes256
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:08 UTC

"Yupp, I'm lying, because I have nothing better to do than bash Macs all day."

I've read many of your comments and it appears that apparently you do indeed have the time.

This quote always amazes me...
by PostScript on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:09 UTC

>> I immediately navigated my web browser to www.apple.com and was in for another huge surprise. Apple had recently released a new operating system called Mac OS X based on one of my favorite OSs, FreeBSD. I couldn't believe it.

I have seen this quote in various incarnations from many writers when they talk about Macs, and it never ceases to amaze me that OSX just "snuck up on them". Where were you for all the PR, news articles, columns, and hype?? I have never owned a Mac in my life, nor has any of my family or friends, but I was still well aware of OSX at least a year before its release. I can't imagine how I could have not known...the articles and screenshots were everywhere. You would think "self proclaimed geeks" would keep up on the news a little better.

I want a MAC!!!
by XBe on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:12 UTC

I just wish some of those crucial specialized softwares I need in the office would be available for Mac... next time I buy something home, it's either Mac or something that runs BeOS/OBOS...

perspectives
by linuxlewis on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:36 UTC

I read how the author had just discovered that Apple with MacOSX had a Unix operating system. I find this to be true even among computer professionals so its not beyond the realm of imagination for this to happen. A lot of people are decidely ignorant of what Apple is doing and just sit on the sidelines wondering why Apple has not died yet.

There were also other comments like MacOSX is unstable which doesn't really carry a lot of weight in my book. I have support a MacOSX servers and desktops along with MacOS9 systems in a prepress environment and we do not have these instability issues. Buy goood RAM and be proactive with system maintenance and you can have good reliability regardless of the OS.

Great Article!
by Andrew G on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:43 UTC

That article almost exactly describes me. I heard about OS X. I wanted a good alternative to Microsoft. I wanted to do my part in promoting choice by voting with my wallet, and talking to friends about how great Mac was.

Well I had my Mac with OS X for about two weeks and then I sold it and cut my losses. Right now I am thinking that my next computer may be a Power Book.

I'm an OSX Convert too
by aeneas on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:43 UTC

I recently bought a 12" Powerbook too ;) It works and looks like a charm -- I love the Freebsd core and the X11 server ;) This just plain rocks.

Congrats for the purchase, but please...
by Ioao on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:50 UTC

don't sell it away anymore. ;) )))

Similar experience
by Denis Law on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:54 UTC

I have similar experience, but of course I didn't as rich as him to spend $3500 on it. I spent like $350 on my G3-300, and like $70 on software. But the machine is incredibly slow, and I can hardly get anything done. So the two macs are kinda sitting there doing nothing now.

Finder Can't Delete Files...
by Joe P on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:54 UTC

This is a know problem.

The file was created from an OS 9 application or while the system was booted to OS 9. The main issue was that the file is flagged as being owned by the SuperUser and Finder didn't have a way for the user to specify that they wanted SU priviges so they could delete the file. I beleave this was fixed in 10.2+.

Very positive...
by Indigo2 on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:56 UTC

I read and enjoyed this article very much. This is primarily due to the fact that I was also pondering buying a Mac soon. I've been debating for almost a year now, and I could really relate to what the author wrote in his article. I think I amy go ahead and order a new G5......

RE: Very positive...
by Indigo2 on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:57 UTC

Sorry, made a spelling mistake. amy = may....Sorry about that.

Nice article
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 20:58 UTC

Pretty nice article, I switched too, (iBook 800MHz, dvd/cdrw). Nice machine, but an even nicer operating system.

RE: My Apple Switch - One Switcher Two Times
by mr_odd on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 21:01 UTC

mmm ... I'm getting a 12" Powerbook soon. Oh joy!

which one to buy???
by hello on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 21:07 UTC

12" powerbook or 15" ??

Re: which one to buy???
by Ronald on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 21:17 UTC

I'd wait for the 15". 12" isn't big enough.

RE: Macs
by zephc on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 21:23 UTC


"Inconsistent LAF. Brushed metal and Aqua. Personally I would rather see everything one consisted look. Going with multiple looks just seems ugly in my opinion. I detest programs in windows that try to fancy up their interface. So windows isn't immune here either. And there is not option to force them to one or the other LAF."

There is a program that will turn off the metal look (in almost everything). Besides, Apple has a rationale of sorts behind it: metal apps interface with foreign devices, pinstripe apps for everything else.

"Keyboard handling. I'm a code monkey. In Windows EVERYTHING is keyboard navigatable. Ok not everything, there are exceptions. The Mac isn't consistent here. Newbees may like mousing around, I don't. There is not way to get to the menu via the keyboard. No "alt-f" to get to the file menu for instance. Either that or it eludes me. Anything that causes my fingers to move from the basic keyboard position will cause productivity problems."

System Preferences > Keyboard > Full Keyboard Access settings. Tweak as desired.

"The touch pad on my iBook isn't as good as some other touch pads I've played with. But that's just getting niggly. "

I would suggest getting a mouse. That's what I would do anyway. I never liked trackpads (and those damn IBM clit mice less so).

"The dock gets in the way. The iBook has limited screen real estate and anything that takes away from it is a pain. I could make it really small but then it becomes hard to use."

Get a Dock replacement. versiontracker.com lists lots of software for this kind of thing.

"Text drawing is god awful in some apps. There might be a setting that I have to use though so this may be a bogus gripe. (Code Warrior I thinking about at the moment."

You can tweak antialiasing in many ways, with both stock software and 3rd party apps (check out TinkerTool as an example)

"The machine came with a couple of games. Neither of them recognize my cheap Logitech Rumble pad. The OS does recognize it as a HID but the games don't. ;) "

http://www.usboverdrive.com. that may fix the problem (it did for me and my weird, obscure game pad)

What kind of author is this?
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 21:30 UTC

"I immediately navigated my web browser to www.apple.com and was in for another huge surprise. Apple had recently released a new operating system called Mac OS X based on one of my favorite OSs, FreeBSD. I couldn't believe it."

FreeBSD is one of his favorite OSs? And he didn't know that Apple was developing OS X based on FreeBSD? Did he live under a rock? Or is he just lying his ass off? What FreeBSD user didn't know that OS X was based on FreeBSD? Most FreeBSD users knew this long before Apple even released the first screenshots of OS X, much less released the OS itself.

Re: What Kind of Author is This?
by linux_baby on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:02 UTC

>>
FreeBSD is one of his favorite OSs? And he didn't know that Apple was developing OS X based on FreeBSD? Did he live under a rock? .. What Kind of Author is This?
>>

A normal, regular person, that's what he is.

Sorry, but I've also come across quite a good number of otherwise Unix freaks who didn't, for example, know shit about linux. They wouldn't even recognise a vanilla RedHat System if it was shouting out at them. People have lives and jobs to do you know, and not everybody cares to keep up with the latest toy in town.

Linux and Unix.
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:06 UTC

"Sorry, but I've also come across quite a good number of otherwise Unix freaks"

I can't think of any UNIX freaks who don't at least know that Linux is a Unix clone though.

switched from x86 to mac then to x86 again
by gilbou on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:06 UTC

After having used x86 for years I move to a 12 inches
Apple iBook. Used it for almost 2 years, then I went
to an x86, choosing a X30 laptop from IBM. And I will
never ever go back to any Apple machines if God lets
me do. MacOS X was nice, indeed but BSD support sucked
too much and contacting Apple has been the worse experience
I ever had. At least with IBM I can grab info about
my machine even if it means signing an NDA.

Macs rebuttle.
by Zekaric on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:08 UTC

"There is a program that will turn off the metal look (in almost everything). Besides, Apple has a rationale of sorts behind it: metal apps interface with foreign devices, pinstripe apps for everything else."

I'll have to look for that proggy then. I wouldn't mind if the interface was completely brushed metal or completely pinstripped but the mixing is just not on in my opinion.


"System Preferences > Keyboard > Full Keyboard Access settings. Tweak as desired. "

Did that. Menus are still not accessable with the keyboard. Mouse required.


"I would suggest getting a mouse. That's what I would do anyway. I never liked trackpads (and those damn IBM clit mice less so)."

I do actually. But when I'm on the road I leave everything I can at home. Mouse stays home.


"Get a Dock replacement. versiontracker.com lists lots of software for this kind of thing."

Cool. Another thing I'll have to hunt down.


"http://www.usboverdrive.com. that may fix the problem (it did for me and my weird, obscure game pad)"

Thanks! I'll see if that works.

Wasting money
by Taras on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:09 UTC

Ok, maybe things are different in Canada. However when you buy something here and you aren't satisfied with it within 30days..you REFUND IT..no bloody need to to sell it on ebay or pay for it 6months later.

Secondly, is it just me or is it rather silly to buy a computer for creditcard money..By the time he was paying it off in 6months, he could've used the exact same money to buy a 6month newer & better machine. Oh, that and the fact that it would lack interest.

Same goes for software. How the hell do you run out and buy an expensive(probly put it on the cc too) piece of software without reading a single review. Also, all the software that I bought had a return-to-maker-within-30days-if-not-satisfied clause. Maybe it's just certain titles and only in canada.

In any case. I'm sure that MBNA is mighty happy with this guy as a customer. He seems to have weird horrid itches to buy expensive hardware that serves litttle purpose(YAY for wasting $2000 on organizing mp3s and photos..YAY!).

Also he claims to be a fan of freebsd, however he doesn't appear to enjoy much of OSX's unix side. There isn't a mention anything but iCra..err..iApps.

After reading this article it seems that Apple should merge with a creditcard company and put even more shiny iButtons into their OS. As long as there are itching geeks, we'll have a successful apple.

I made a linux switch
by Marcelo on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:12 UTC

I bought a desknote A928 (http://www.desknote.biz) and I run linux on it. The hardware price was only US$ 800 and all the software, including linux was free.

Note: LCD is 15", my processor is a Pentium 4 2,0 GHz and I have Firewire, 4 USB 2.0 ports, IR, DVD/CDRW, etc...

It is my main desktop and I am very happy with it. The hardware is open and software also...

heh
by df on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:15 UTC

a t68i, g4 powerbook, ipod, cannon s110, tungsten-t and a sony digital camcorder, a wife, two kids.

i wish i was rich too.

i'm envious.

Re:Funny
by xander on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:25 UTC

>It's pretty funny how some people yearn so bad to be enveloped by Jobs' reality distortion field. I hope this guy doesn't meet any scientologists.

I agree with you on that... There's just something about Jobs, I'm not sure what it is...

Like when the flat panel iMac came out, I wanted one so much. It's all I could talk about! Thankfully I didn't have any money at the time... Because a few months later I realized it's kind of a silly looking computer, expensive, and slow.

So I just upgraded my PC for $250... That's $1,050 cheaper than the iMac, and I'm quite happy with it. ;)

It will just take another 15 years or so. And then you'll all be saying how great it is.

Look, it's obvious what apple is doing is better. Obvious. PCs are just cheaper, faster (about to change) and more compatible. That's it.

re: lies
by anon on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:36 UTC

I am a Mac system administrator and have never come across files not being able to be deleted from the desktop unless they were locked... but thats an easy fix... just get-info on the file and unlock it.

I'm sure it was something simple like that.


Oh quit trolling, you're intentionally turning people off Macs. For the record, I had a similar problem where I couldn't clear the Trash because some files refused to be deleted. This was under 10.2.

Obviously, you have to give a new OS some time. Mac is probably at the point where it can be recommended for businesses. Following advantages:

- Not too many apps. This is actually a good thing for businesses.
- 1 mouse button. This makes training easier.
- Nicer appearance by default. This increases morale.
- Less variable. Saves admin costs.
- Reasonable to program for. You can make inhouse apps.

The thing to watch out for is networking, networking, and networking. I don't think it's hard at all, but you need to do little test runs. Even among only Windows machines, voodoo is often needed. I've had frustrating anomalies with integrating a Mac into a Windows/Linux network.

"PCs are just cheaper"

I think you mean equivilently priced.

re: Apple
by anon on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:42 UTC

Jobs clearly understands much of the point of personal computing. It's not just marketing. However, he strongly attracts those who yearn to fit in somewhere. There are many people like that; look at Joel Spolsky or especially Philip Greenspun. There's the marketing component, but there's also substance.

I'm not wanting to concentrate on peoples' personalities, but it does point out how there aren't that many people who "get" what they're working on.

Re:re: lies
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:48 UTC

"Oh quit trolling, you're intentionally turning people off Macs."

pardon me?


"For the record, I had a similar problem where I couldn't clear the Trash because some files refused to be deleted. This was under 10.2."

That's different. He said that he couldn't move a file from the desktop.


Obviously, you have to give a new OS some time.

Agreed. Thankfully, with NeXT's rich history, OS X is a mature operating system.


"Mac is probably at the point where it can be recommended for businesses. Following advantages:

- Not too many apps. This is actually a good thing for businesses."


No its not. Thankfully, there are plenty of Applications however. (You say I'm trolling?)


" - 1 mouse button. This makes training easier."

1 or many mouse buttons. You have a choice. With PC's you only get many. Makes training harder?


"The thing to watch out for is networking, networking, and networking."

Thankfully, OS X networks BEATUTIFULLY. The few times where incompatibilities arise is almost always the product of Microsoft's injected incompatibilities as is the case with Exchange servers.

advertisement
by alex on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 22:56 UTC

i'm an apple fan boy, but he sounds like a walking apple advertisement...

For the record...
by Bascule on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 23:19 UTC

OS X is not "FreeBSD" underneath. The userspace comes from FreeBSD partially, but many components of the userspace come directly from NeXT (i.e. NetInfo). OS X does not use BSD-style init either.

As for the kernel, OS X's process scheduler and VMM, which I would consider the two most important components of an operating system kernel, come directly from Mach. While FreeBSD's VMM is a descendant of Mach, it has been *heavily* modified over the past decade.

The components of the kernel that do come from FreeBSD are the unified buffer cache, the VFS, and the networking components. I would assume that the asynchronous I/O implementation and kqueue implementation are largely based on FreeBSD as well.

The bottom line is that Darwin is a combination of NeXT and FreeBSD components and XNU is a hybrid Mach/FreeBSD kernel, with the important components of the kernel being Mach, and the FreeBSD components being relatively uninteresting.

clit mice!
by Shawna on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 23:30 UTC

"those damn IBM clit mice"...you made my day with that one...thanks for the giggle.

all this fuss over a machine used by 0.1% of people on earth
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 23:34 UTC

So, you bought a Mac and feel elite, right? Well, of course you do! You are one of the few, one of the chosen, one of the ones who is sure.

You can be proud that you are now a member of one of those most elite minorities on Earth -- OS X users.

You can be proud that you can put aside your cringing weak ago and feel okay to "think different". After all, you have your shiny white or metal machine to back you up in case a problem arises.

Let it be known all over cyberspace... "I'm an American and I got over my fear... and I just purchased a shiny new expensive computer!"

But just remember, Winston, what happens at the end of the story. Goldstein, played by Jobs, is not really who you think he is. In the end, with tears streaming down your face, you will confess your undying love for Bill Gates and his Thought Police Windows Palladium PC's.

Re: all this fuss over a machine used by 0.1% of people on earth
by Anonymous on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 23:40 UTC

Geez you are an insecure sorry little sap. I cant believe you just posted that silly response.

a silly topic deserves a silly response
by Michael on Wed 2nd Jul 2003 23:46 UTC

I like Mac quite a bit as you can see from some of my more recent posts. However, I dislike, with a passion, the endless fawning over Mac. Sure, it's marketed as a cult of the worthy, but in the end, it's just a computer. Get over it already.

macs
by joe on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:13 UTC

AppleDroid (12.105.181.---) has nothing better to do while he waits for his rendering to finish on his Mac. Let's all worship Apple to make AppleDroid happy.

Re: macs
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:21 UTC

C'mon guys, lets go troll the OS News Forums...
Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll...

Dammit, that 12.105.181.--- keeps messing up our plans!

Re: a silly topic deserves a silly response
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:24 UTC

I like Mac quite a bit as you can see from some of my more recent posts. However, I dislike, with a passion, the endless fawning over Mac.

Me too. Thankfully you don't see a whole lot of that around here.

"Sure, it's marketed as a cult of the worthy"

Is that what you think? You've got some bizarre ideas there buddy.

"but in the end, it's just a computer."

Agreed.


"Get over it already."

Get over what?

RE: Me (IP: ---.covad.com)
by CooCooCaChoo on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:34 UTC

Well, what do you expect? MAC's are simply a serial number embedded into a NIC, or do you mean a Mac? as in the computer?

Yes people, there are dickheads like Me (IP: ---.covad.com) who are poor as heck and disgruntled with the PC but instead of improving their lot, they go around and abuse all and sundry, especially those like Stuart MacKenzie who actually have the money to spend on what they want.

I too am moving to a Mac, and I really don't give a shit what you ( Me (IP: ---.covad.com) ) or any of your poverty striken PC-fanboys think. Stick with your hacked to gether, half baked computer and I'll keep with a computer system with software and hardware that work together flawlessly.

Re: Re: Anonymous
by Negvibe on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:34 UTC

Yeah, actually my friend had trouble with deleting a pesky folder and changing permissions using Get Info didn't work out and all sorts of crazy things. Nothing would work, couldn't rename it or anything, but I am one that doesn't find it a huge deal to go in to Terminal and take care of it that way. I never did figure out what the real deal was as I'm no Command Line God by any stretch of the imagination, but throwing a couple sudo commands at the problem took care of it.

This was an earlier version of OS X when things were still a bit flaky. I haven't experienced this since, beyond maybe trying to delete something that's still in use somewhere or something stupid like that.

I playfully that submit most college kids that would drop in to command line to delete the trash for a friend are products of the hacker's portrayal in The Matrix movies and trying to look cool, but i digress...

Re: Negvibe
by bytes256 on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 00:55 UTC

I playfully that submit most college kids that would drop in to command line to delete the trash for a friend are products of the hacker's portrayal in The Matrix movies and trying to look cool, but i digress...

Ohhh yeessss.... damn I felt real l337 that day, lemme tell ya

It was simply the only way to do it. An app forgot to tell the OS that it was done with the file. The finder thought it was still in use and refused to get rid of it.

If you can tell me some other way to delete a file that the OS still thinks is in use without doing something to "try to look cool" let me know.

The only other solution I can think of is reboot...sorry for my *nix hatred for rebooting unless absolutely necessary, guess I am l337 after all.

Games
by Sikosis on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:19 UTC

PC Games eventually come out on the Mac, but much later after all the hype has gone and no one is playing them anymore.

It's safer with a PC and a *lot* cheaper. Like the new G5 is over $5000.

Until Apple reduce the cost of their hardware, this "switch" idea is useless.

To appleforever
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:25 UTC

"Look, it's obvious what apple is doing is better. "

For you maybe. Not for over 85% of the world population.

"Obvious."

You try to convince yourself of something wrong, or what ?

PCs are just cheaper, faster (about to change) and more compatible. That's it.

"It's already pretty good. Add a better OS too, and more software, more game, then yeah. That's it."

To Anonymous
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:26 UTC

"PCs are just cheaper" I think you mean equivilently priced.

No, that meant *CHEAPER*.
As in "less expensive for the equivalent machine".
As in "pay lot more just to have a little apple logo on your PC, but not the quality equivalent to a non-apple of the same price".

To appleforever
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:30 UTC

"faster (about to change) "

What is about to change ? Are you talking about the G5 with it's cranked and hacked perf numbers ? Stuff that you can downright call cheat ? The G5 that, even before it's released, it's outperformed by multiple non-apple PC already on the market ? For cheaper ?

RE: bytes256
by Negvibe on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:40 UTC

Hey, bytes256,
That actually wasn't meant as a slam against you. If you read, you'd see I had to do the same thing you did.

I was just picturing college students that do that unnecessarily to impress friends is all.

apples to raspberries
by pc dude on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 01:58 UTC

Hey how come when all the apple articles come out, the pc people go "lol!, sha right" and the apple-ites act like offended hippies in search of good poetry? Wtf its just a computer guys....sheesh.

G3
by Nathan O. on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:04 UTC

Kinda off topic, but is the lowest priced iBook as of now (from the Apple Store, at $999 with an 800MHz G3) worth it? Does it have decent speed? How slow does slow get on a modern Mac?

RE: Re: What Kind of Author is This? -> linux_baby
by AndrewG on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:08 UTC

Thank goodness finally some common sense

so so poor!
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:11 UTC

@ Sikosis
"Until Apple reduce the cost of their hardware, this "switch" idea is useless."

@ The Pessimist
"No, that meant *CHEAPER*.
As in "less expensive for the equivalent machine".
As in "pay lot more just to have a little apple logo on your PC, but not the quality equivalent to a non-apple of the same price". "

Why do George Castanzas and Fred Sanfords continue to dominate these Mac articles? You poor homeless PC people with cable modems and 3.2GHZ P4s have nothing to contribute other than how Macs cost 1 billion dollars and how Apple died yesterday and you are telling us today. Maybe you guys should find jobs or refine your current PC skills so that you can differentiate yourself from the other 5 trillion MCSEs and MCPs and actually afford some of this hardware or take a financial managment class to learn how to manage what you got.

Apple is not in the econo-PC business, there are already plenty of those around so why insist on it, its not like you can afford it if they did have low cost Macs. You would start whining about how you can't build a Mac from stuff you find in the garbage, sewer, swamp or radioactive pond.

On the topic, I never knew someone who regretted switching but I would advise less lofty hardware if you are a new Mac user. That Powerbook G4 is slow and useless under MacOSX 10.0 and is tolerable in 10.1., 10.2 is much better in useability. I use a G4/466 at work and it runs fine for a lot of tasks despite being an old piece of hardware.






You guys!
by Tony Maccaronii on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:16 UTC

are a bunch of whining babys.

Use what u re comfortable with and shut up.
Who cares anyway.

Games.
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:19 UTC

"PC Games eventually come out on the Mac, but much later after all the hype has gone and no one is playing them anymore."

For most games (most of the good games) they come out at the same time. That's okay... I'll I want is most good games.

"It's safer with a PC and a *lot* cheaper. Like the new G5 is over $5000."

How do you figure, the new G5 can be had for for less than $2,000. ($1,799) Find me an equivilent PC for less.


"Until Apple reduce the cost of their hardware, this "switch" idea is useless."

Considering the fact that Mac's and PCs are at the same price points when you compare both platforms with equivilent specs, it would seem that the switch idea is PERFECT.

To the Mac people
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:19 UTC

If I had $2000 to spend on a new computer and wanted to buy a Mac, what should I go for?

top of the line 14.1" iBook
middle of the road 15" Powerbook G4 or
bottom level Power Mac G5

Also, seeing people talk about how OS X is slow worries me. Is 10.2 really that much better?

Re: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:24 UTC

>>"Look, it's obvious what apple is doing is better. "

"For you maybe. Not for over 85% of the world population."


Give them time, the'll start to realize it too.


"PCs are just cheaper"

Compare a PC with equivilent hardware and software... and you'll find that the Mac is either slightly over, same price, slightly under or significantly under.


"faster (about to change)"

They've been faster throughout their lifetime. its only been throughout the last year and a half that they lost the speed crown.


"more compatible. That's it."

Now you're getting it.



"It's already pretty good. Add a better OS too, and more software, more game, then yeah. That's it."

Considering the fact that I can get faster hardware AND a better OS at the same price, why settle for less?

Re: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:26 UTC

>>>"PCs are just cheaper" I think you mean equivilently priced.

"No, that meant *CHEAPER*.
As in "less expensive for the equivalent machine".


Okay, find me a PC with equivilent specs as a Mac (considering the G5 towers) with the same specs. You'll find what we've been saying all along. They're either slightly more, the same price, slightly less or significantly less.

Re: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:30 UTC

>>>"faster (about to change) "

What is about to change ? Are you talking about the G5 with it's cranked and hacked perf numbers ?

No, I think he's talking about the G5's that beat the PC chips fair and square. Nobody knows what you're talking about...



[i]"The G5 that, even before it's released, it's outperformed by multiple non-apple PC already on the market ?"


That's not what every test that has been completed thus far has said. Yet you knew that already... you're just trolling.


"For cheaper ?"

Yep, by a lot too.

G3
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:33 UTC

"Kinda off topic, but is the lowest priced iBook as of now (from the Apple Store, at $999 with an 800MHz G3) worth it? Does it have decent speed?"

While you would be significantly better off if you were to buy into a G4 or G5, a G3 is still a very capeable machine. I wouldn;t have said that about some of the older G3s, but the newer ones are a great starter Mac if you want to make the transition slowly.


"How slow does slow get on a modern Mac?"

About as slow as you can get on a modern PC.

Re: To the Mac people
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:39 UTC

"If I had $2000 to spend on a new computer and wanted to buy a Mac, what should I go for?"

top of the line 14.1" iBook
middle of the road 15" Powerbook G4 or
bottom level Power Mac G5"


If you already have a display and dont need portability... Go for the G5. If you need portability, I wouldn't go for either of the laptops you mentioned. I'd go for the 12" Powerbook. Its the ultimate in portability (very small) yet is very full featured


"Also, seeing people talk about how OS X is slow worries me. Is 10.2 really that much better?"

Pay no mind to the trolls in this forum. They are just reiterating the feedback that came from the first version of OS X... which was slow, but 10.2 was a major improvement as will Panther be.

A G5 is not $5000 & Os X on the G3
by Kady Mae on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:40 UTC

Yes, you can custom config a dual processor G5 and end up with a $5k comptuer.

They start at $3k.

The whole line starts at $2k

---

I have an iBook 600 and it's plenty fast for surfing the web, writing code, etc under 10.2.6

But, if you plan to be doing regular photoshoping, video editing, or anthing else, a G4/G5 is in order.

But right now, surfing the web, there is very little difference between this G4 dual 867 and my ibook.







Dude...
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:41 UTC

Honestly, you're a freak.

If you were a friend of mine and spent all of your time telling me of your desire to buy a Mac, showing me your iPOD, informing me you were going to buy that Mac, or trying to convince me to buy a Mac I'd probably end up dope-slapping you into next week.

It's a machine for chrissake! It's not a life altering choice (or if it is, your life is way way off balance). It's a tool, a time-saving device. It's not your best friend, it's not your lover (ooo, the packaging was sexy!), it's not anything but a hunk of metal, plastic, and silicon.

This op-ed piece was sad sad sad.

How slow is slow?
by Jared White on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:46 UTC

Perhaps I'm wasting my time trying to post a legitimate message in the midst of all this nonsense, but I'll try to answer the question of "how slow does a modern Mac get?"

I have an iBook 600MHz with 384MB of RAM. So it was low-end over a year ago. It's certainly no iMac G4 800MHz (my other, main machine), but it's OK. Running Jaguar, it's fine for surfin' the Web, e-mail, Word docs, programming (Cocoa development's pretty swift on this baby), and some lightweight multimedia stuff. Don't expect to get good game performance out of this.

Of course, this is all somewhat moot as the new "low-end" iBook is already way better than what I got. With a faster processor and system bus plus a decent graphics card, I imagine it's a way better performer than my machine. But my point is: OS X Jaguar running on an older, so-so machine isn't bad at all. A new machine? Snappy.

Of course, as always YMMV.

Jared

re: Hmmmm
by J on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:54 UTC

You're wrong. Perhaps he had the initial version of osx which was essentially a beta. But I have yet to EVER have the pc just reboot on me without warning. I've had a few apps crash, a few freezes and a few resets in a few years. But it is extremely stable. I suggest you check out the mac again, especially once the G5 and Panther are out. I guarantee you will be impressed.
As a counterpoint I work with windows 2000 at my job (in a help desk). Now there's a buggy os, (though better than 98). I don't think 2000 has done that to me either (rebooted out of the blue). However, we have had horrendous problems addng hardware, removing software (dipping into the registry to undo changes) and pc's that have to be reimaged because they get "slow" and we run out of troubleshooting ideas.
This is not to mention the 3 times in the last year we were overrun with viruses, constant server crashing and unbelievable problems with windows and word. Not to mention countless calls from secretaries who cannot figure out how to do basic things in windows (like change printers or desktop pictures), because unlike the mac windows is very counterintuitive. Use a mac for a week or two and you will see a huge difference. If you're an expert at windows you might feel that mac is counterintuitive as you're not used to it, but I would bet a dollar that a brand new user would figure out a mac much quicker than a pc)
You also say name one piece of hardware that is easier to install and i would say "all of them". seriously. Half the time you don't even need to install a driver from a cd and when you do it is effortless. That commercial with the cute switcher (Janine porch?) who saved christmas is totally accurate. Plug in 90% of digital cameras and....that's it. Plug and play. (scanner support is perhaps more iffy I will admit....)
How about uninstalling apps. How easy is this? Take the app and throw it in the trash. Uninstalled. Literally. (ok you can also uninstall the pref file).
If you install an app it cannot f*#$ with your registry because each app is contained in its own package and the system folder cannot be touched or overwritten by any apps files. So when something goes wrong you dont have to spend 3 hours digging into the registry which was rewritten.
I have to use windows at work and spend the entire time troubleshooting either system issues or app issues and I dont have those problems on my mac at home. not to say that it never crashes, but its very seldom. Also zero viruses. Never. And with each os it gets better. Don't rely on your looking over your freinds shoulder to judge the mac. It is FAR from os 9 days. Though I loved 9 at the time with X you can plainly see how antiquated 9 is. I really think the majority of users who put down a mac haven't seen one since before os x and are basing their opinion on the older os.

If PVD uses it, it is good enough for me!
by Ryan Blace on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 02:59 UTC


Let's be honest. The real litmus test of the platform isn't the cost/value/price or the speed/frequency/bandwidth or even the looks. What does PVD use? MAC. The other 85% of the population will catch up soon enough... we just have a head start!

Honestly, who throws a shoe? -- Austin Powers

RE: If PVD uses it, it is good enough for me!
by Stuart MacKenzie on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 03:19 UTC

You make me laugh! NTACs

Macs are more expensive than PC's but....
by J on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 03:20 UTC

To make it easy for the people who say macs are too expensive think of it this way. There is no low end mac. The low end mac is the equivalent to a relatively higher end pc. No macs don't come with a semi decent graphics card, firewire, cd burner or dvd burner (in the case of the imac a monitor) ethernet etc. You put all of that into a pc and it costs more than an emachine. The mac might be a little more, but its not double the cost. And the laptops are comparatively priced. Once the g5 comes out you will see that that is possibly the LOWEST priced high end pc around. It's competition is really workstations that cost 4000 dollars.
Now if you want to build your own pc you'll get it for much cheaper. and if all you want is an emachine with no frills then I'll grant you the pc is much cheaper.

Sprucing up OS X
by Kilian on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 03:44 UTC

"I wouldn't mind if the interface was completely brushed metal or completely pinstripped but the mixing is just not on in my opinion."

Don't use any of the haxies from unsanity.com. They tend to crash most of my cocoa apps. If you want a consistant look you might want to get ThemeChanger (free: <http://www.clichesw.com/products/themechanger/>), and the grab a bunch of cool Themes for OS X from <http://www.resexcellence.com/themes/>. That way even your carbon apps will have the same look, as themes essentially replace the actual graphic files for the look of OS X.


"System Preferences > Keyboard > Full Keyboard Access settings. Tweak as desired. "
" Did that. Menus are still not accessable with the keyboard. Mouse required."

Huh??. Works flawlessly. Set it so that you can use ctrl with letter keys, then if you hit CTRL+m you can move around the menues with the cursor keys and select with return or enter.


"Get a Dock replacement. versiontracker.com lists lots of software for this kind of thing."

I you prefer to use the keyboard you HAVE to get LaunchBar. This thing has changed my life and I cannot live without it any more.
<http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/>

RE: Sprucing up OS X
by Eugenia on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 04:04 UTC

Can't you just read how to create URLs on OSNews? (big red letters underneath the posting form) Just leave a space around them.

Sounds familar
by Henry on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 04:40 UTC

I actually switched around 2 years ago now, but I can tell where he's coming from. I actually switched off of Windows to BeOS around 5 years ago, so my real migration was from Hacked-to-be-modern BeOS R5 to brand-freaking-new OS X 10.0. I think my BeOS experience prepared me well for having large parts of the OS missing or non-functioning. When my machine first arrived, I still had to boot in to OS 9 to burn a CD or DVD, install drivers and that sort of thing. OS X wasn't even the default bootup. About 3 months after buying my Mac, I was getting very discouraged. I had purchased it to run OS X, not OS 9, and stability in either was terrible. A switch back to BeOS, Linux, or even Windows seemed inevitable.

Luckily, 10.1 came out right about this time. I was very pleasantly surprised to discover its upgrade price (nothing), but my hopes for the platform were lower at this point. 10.1 really got me back into it. I could finally do stuff I had wanted to do, like making DVDs and running (more) Unixy stuff. The development tools had become useable (though still not great), and the apps I really wanted (Office, PhotoShop, DVD SP) really started arriving. 10.1 was enough of an upgrade that I was willing to stick with my Mac for a while longer.

After a year of Mac owership, it came time to buy a computer; I try to update every 12 months. I don't know what had happened in those past 12 months, but there was no question in my mind at this point that I'd be buying another Mac. I finally felt like I was part of a computing community where stuff really happened. I had switched to BeOS because I was upset with Microsoft's apparent inability to make neccessary changes, only to end up with a dead OS. In Mac land, stuff really happens. I couldn't turn my back on this.

In the next few months, I plan to buy a new G5. I'm reasonably confident that it will be at least as useful to me as my previous machines. 10.3 looks exciting, and I've become completely hooked on iTunes and its store. In the end, my Mac turned out to be all I had wished for, it just took a few point releases.

Huh??. Works flawlessly. Set it so that you can use ctrl with letter keys, then if you hit CTRL+m you can move around the menues with the cursor keys and select with return or enter.

No troubleshooting here hey? mac just works? What u have to SET IT UP TO USE keyboard..

Mac osx crashes oftern.. every mac osx user i know has hard locked his more than once.

Mac osx has aweful support for hardware devices.. even the Apple inbuilt audio device has problems.

If your buying a mac cause u think its easier to install and configure.. your very very wrong. I mean make up your mind are u a unix power user, or an apple lamer.

Either u want power and useability like windows.. or u want lame apple useability or lame linux power. (I used unix for over 10 years and the command line just blows).

IF u buy a device that wont install in a snap for windows ya take it back, .. if its for apple.. do u call apple or the proprietor.. everyone keeps telling u they know nothing of this bug.. or dont support osx yet.. etc etc


Re: OSX is a real operating system with real problems
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 06:05 UTC

"mac just works? What u have to SET IT UP TO USE keyboard.."

It's not dificult at all .


"Mac osx crashes oftern.."

No, it doesn't.


"every mac osx user i know has hard locked his more than once."

I know many OS X users and each person I've talked to has said what few crashes they've experienced were only with the first release of OS X.


"Mac osx has aweful support for hardware devices.."

Could have fooled me. Every single hardware device that me co workers and I have attached to our Macs have worked flawlessly, this without checking to see if these devices were supported beforehand. These devices include everything from digital cameras (many models) to video cameras (many models). Support for external hardware devices is one of OS X's gretest strengths. Frankly, I'm surprised you brought it up.


"even the Apple inbuilt audio device has problems."

Something tells me you're making this crap up because, not only have any of us never had any problems with Apple's built in audio device (assuming you're talking about the microphone) I've never heard about anyone having such a problem.


"If your buying a mac cause u think its easier to install and configure.. your very very wrong."

No, they are very right. We have had more problems with our XP machines than I care to count, all of them resulting in dificulty in configuring the OS correctly. Meanwhile OS X has been a sinch for any task we throw at it.


"I mean make up your mind are u a unix power user, or an apple lamer."

I am a Unix power user AND an Apple lamer thank you very much.


"Either u want power and useability like windows.."

Now why would anyone want the limited power and useability that Windows provides?


"or u want lame apple useability"

I don't want lame Apple useability, I want the powerful Apple useability that Apple provides.


"or lame linux power. (I used unix for over 10 years and the command line just blows)."

Or have Power AND usability in one package... hence the reason to go OS X.


"IF u buy a device that wont install in a snap for windows ya take it back"

Same for An Apple machine. Tell me, why would it be any different?


"if its for apple.. do u call apple or the proprietor"

Take it back, call apple or the proprietor. All three are likely to work... the same way it would on a PC for that matter.


"everyone keeps telling u they know nothing of this bug"

Or they do happen to know about a particular bug... the same as it might be for any computing platform.


"or dont support osx yet.. etc etc"

or do support the platform... the same as is the case for any platform.

Why are you working so hard to find fault with Apple and the Mac?

let us all be thankful
by Michael on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 06:19 UTC

Let us all be thankful. Even when we are laughing maniacally when unbelievably... yet another "switch" or "linux review" or "microsoft announces" article comes up.

We are thankful because OSNews is keeping us in touch with the community.

"By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, journalism keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community."

-- Oscar Wilde


Welcome to the new religion!
by marcm on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 07:01 UTC

Apple has become a religion amongst many. Some dude here posts constantly pro-apple comments, I really don't know why he bothers. And I don't get the PC vs. MAC stuff. PC stands for Personal Computer, and a Mac is also a Personal Computer. On the other hand the x86 platform doesn't belong exclusivelly to Microsoft. The MAC is only a Computer! It is a tool to do day to day work! It has a tight integration comming from one vendor, and it is high-qualitty. Lots of people know that. And yes, it is somehow expensive. I don't say I can't afford one, because anyone who works can afford an under $2k Computer. But why would I trow my money at it? I am not a Windows user, and I'm not so crazy about OS X eather. But then again, how could I, and many others laugh to death over the comments here? How could we have some fun in the late evening? So keep on the trolls, bashes, PC vs. MAC arguments, stupid PRO PC or PRO MAC arguments, stupid lies like :" OS X crashes all the time", or "Apple will die anythime soon", or "I can't get anything to work with my MAC", or on the other hand the general "The PC is crap" comments. Without all these comments many people wouldn't have fun and this site would run out of busines.
On the other hand I'd love to see articles like: "A quick&dirty PHP tutorial", or "How to set up Linux on a laptop corectly", or "How to code in OS X", or "How to use the Windows GUI API..." and the list can go on. Maybe I should submit a couple of these in the future....but people don't have interest in this kind of stuff, I forgot...Instead we have to read how a MAC integrates into the life of a grown up with the brains of a 12 year old (no offence meant by this). But really, if I'd had 2 kids, the last thing I'd would be obsessed about would be the question:" To buy or not to buy...". I don't think this is a soap-opera web site, its a computer-tech orriented site. Then again, I may be wrong, cause I just finished work and I'm tired....

Re: Welcome to the new religion!
by anon on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 07:17 UTC

There are pretty big differences, and they're like rock-scissors-paper. For example, Apple wins stability for controlling hardware+software. But that means enormous negatives like lock-in.

Nearly every advantage is also a disadvantage. Depends on your perspective and goals. The important thing is that as Apple improves, you have more choice.

Re: marcm
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 08:18 UTC

"Apple has become a religion amongst many."

No, we're just passionate about our computers... that's all.


"Some dude here posts constantly pro-apple comments"

I'm assuming you're talking about me because I;ve been posting so activly lately.

I'm not posting pro-apple comments, I'm correcting the incorrect anti-Apple comments.


"I really don't know why he bothers."

The opposite reason why there is a handful of individuals here that insist on posting noting but anti Apple comments.


"And I don't get the PC vs. MAC stuff."

Certain platforms are significantly better than others.. in price performance and usability yet dont have the recognotion they deserve. We're just trying to help the recognition engine.


"PC stands for Personal Computer, and a Mac is also a Personal Computer."

Noboday is disputing that.


"On the other hand the x86 platform doesn't belong exclusivelly to Microsoft."

And yet the unwashed masses don't know any better.


"The MAC is only a Computer!"

MAC is an acronym for Media Access Control. "Mac" on the other hand is the abbreviation for Macintosh.


"It is a tool to do day to day work!"

Nobody has said otherwise.


"It has a tight integration comming from one vendor"

Whgich uses many of the same comoddity parts that every other PC manufacturer uses.


"and it is high-qualitty."

yes it is.


"Lots of people know that."

Unfortunately, most don't.



"And yes, it is somehow expensive."

No more expensive than a comperably equipped PC.


"I don't say I can't afford one, because anyone who works can afford an under $2k Computer."

Be it a Mac or a PC. They run at the same prices when the same features are used when compared.


"But why would I trow my money at it?"

The same reason why you might trow money at a PC.


"I am not a Windows user, and I'm not so crazy about OS X eather."

You deserve a cookie.


"But then again, how could I, and many others laugh to death over the comments here?"

I don;t know, how could you laugh to death over the comments here?


"How could we have some fun in the late evening?"

Personally, I like to puncture my body wit bobby pinw then crumble up saltines and roll in them till I can't stand it any more... but to each his own.


"So keep on the trolls, bashes, PC vs. MAC arguments, stupid PRO PC or PRO MAC arguments, stupid lies like :" OS X crashes all the time", or "Apple will die anythime soon", or "I can't get anything to work with my MAC", or on the other hand the general "The PC is crap" comments. Without all these comments many people wouldn't have fun and this site would run out of busines."

Personally, I would prefer inteligent conversation without all that garbage. The signal to noise ratio has been low here as of late... so many of us are simply trying to fix that.


"On the other hand I'd love to see articles like: "A quick&dirty PHP tutorial", or "How to set up Linux on a laptop corectly", or "How to code in OS X", or "How to use the Windows GUI API..." and the list can go on."

Me too.


"Maybe I should submit a couple of these in the future....but people don't have interest in this kind of stuff, I forgot..."

I disagree. Most of us do. Unfortunately, you'd never know it by reading many of the comments on these boards.


"Instead we have to read how a MAC integrates into the life of a grown up with the brains of a 12 year old (no offence meant by this)."

This comment is an example of the signal to noise ratio being lost.


,i>"But really, if I'd had 2 kids, the last thing I'd would be obsessed about would be the question:" To buy or not to buy..."."[/i]

Funny thing about computer geeks. We're funny like that. Perhps you visited the wrong site. The home and garden web page can be found next door.


"I don't think this is a soap-opera web site, its a computer-tech orriented site. Then again, I may be wrong, cause I just finished work and I'm tired...."

We'll go to bed. it sounds like you need some sleep.

Re: Welcome to the new religion!
by craig on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 08:22 UTC

Hmmm...funny thing about this little ol internet thing we got going here is it chuck full of sites that deal with just about any subject you can imagine. There just happens to be this wacky place called google.com that lets you search for places that just might teach you about "A quick&dirty PHP tutorial", or "How to set up Linux on a laptop corectly", or "How to code in OS X", or "How to use the Windows GUI API..." which are not likely subject matter for a place with the title of "OSnews" that in this case is giving us news about an OS. And no, you don't have to read anything posted here...there is at least some free will left in the world after all.

I HAVE THE POWER!!!!!!
by floyd lloyd on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 08:26 UTC

Either u want power and useability like windows.. or u want lame apple useability or lame linux power. (I used unix for over 10 years and the command line just blows).

Yes, of course, the command line blows. I sure wish I didn't ever have to use a command line because I love the awesome POWER of point and click. Watch me wield my power and OPEN OUTLOOK EXPRESS. Ph34r me - I'm going to PLAY EVERQUEST! Really, mice should be registered with the ATF when purchased since they are obviously so POWERFUL!!! HE-Man would have faired much better against Skeletor, but Skeltor kept him at bay with the AWESOME POWER of his terrible swift mouse.

If any of what you wrote is true I'm guessing that you must have started using UNIX at age 6 because with your barely readable post if you are over 17 years old, my ass is a banjo.

Am I seriously the only person here who uses multiple platforms? I must be some kind freak to have the audacity to run Linux, Windows and Macintosh on one network. I must be an even bigger freak to admit that each OS has strengths and weaknesses...

blah
by dude on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 08:36 UTC

this article is useless in a news site. I would have liked to see stuff on the upcoming G5 or Panther OS rather than a sobb story. Submit your switcher stories on the apple website, they actually ask for them there.

Re: Anonymous
by Jorge on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 09:00 UTC

"I can recall several instances where I had to go to drop to the command line for him, just to delete some files off his desktop. The GUI wouldn't let him.
>>I think you're lying. I've never heard of such an error.
Yupp, I'm lying, because I have nothing better to do than bash Macs all day.
Just because you've never heard of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I most certainly did have to delete some files off of his desktop through the terminal window. I believe those files were failed/corrupted downloads off of the internet that he couldn't delete because Mac OS X thought the files were still in use.
That was not just a single fluke either. I had to do that on at least three occasions for him."

I believe you were making a serious point here. I can reproduce this behaviour myself, but this only happens with files that the system list as being 'in use'. This happens to me with files and folders on my external FireWire drive. You may have to close files and/or applications to be able to remove them. I don't open the terminal to remove these icons, just reboot (ever since I've started JagWyre this has become a rare event in my daily use of the system) and you can remove everything (insofar as the reboot doesn't take care of that) you want.
I'm driving JagWyre since last year and I'm absolutely in love with it. I'll save everybody but mostly myself any lament of my use of Windows machines, it's painful enough as it is without making an opera out of it (not dissin' the browser here).
I'll agree with the author of the piece when he says that he just wants to do stuff on his machine and not spend his life configuring things. Amen to that. More easy to configure than iPod ? iChat A/V (zero configuration, it's true, I've (not) done it).
And Apple, like it or lump it, does have the cohones to try some new stuff in their machines. Remember no more disk drives, remember FireWire, now think of optical audio in/out on the G5.

No rants about "My Mac is better". Pointless, doesn't convince anyone. I just want to see you smile when Microsoft introduces DRM tied to an Intel chip on the motherboard. Won't be good news for Apple either, but all you happy haxxors (?!) out there will go wild trying to circumvent that thing and still work with whatever Windows is called by that time.

RE: OSX is a real operating system with real problems
by spongebobsquarepants on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 09:13 UTC

Glenn, sorry but it sounds like you are just a big idiot when it comes to Mac OS X. I've seen seniors in retirement homes have better experiences with it than what you've described.

Get a free developper licence to test developing Cocoa applications. And buy yourself a copy of WebObjects !!!

What a crock of shite.
by Hmmm.... on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 09:19 UTC

<quote>
So I antied up some more bucks and increased the RAM on my 400Mhz PowerBook to 1 Gigabyte
</quote>

The 12" Titanium PowerBook G4 is 867Mhz...

Sounds like FUD to me.

blah
by Someone on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 10:15 UTC

Mmm, if Apple had gone the other route and went for a slick, responsive OS instead of duplicating Windows resource hungry bloatware I believe they'd have a lot more converts by now.

How to optimize your mac under macos x
by ibook 600 user on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 10:31 UTC

1- First look at machine processor (G3, G4, (G5 : )=) ))
if you have a G3 (> 400 Mhz should be Ok) go to
www.macosxhints.com

and search for G3 optimisations
it consists in:
- Removing shadows
- Change the theme
- Removing genie effect
- ....

After that you will have a faster Mac.

2- If you have a G4 (or more for the lucky guys)
You should not have so many speed problems.

Beside these points you have to admit that the Finder is slow (unless you have a bi 1 Ghz (may be they have coded it under such machines)).

So consider to use another tool (RBrowser, NetFinder, PathFinder). Personnally I use rox-filer under X11 which is faster than any thing I've seen (even on my 600 Mhz IBook or my 9600 G3 350 Mhz at home ( just hope gtk-osx will be realeased one day)).

Then you can add something very usefull like YoupiKey in your menu (to keyboard switch beetween apps and keyboard launch some apps, launch Apple Scripts ....)

Finally you can add Menu Master to remap keyboards shortcuts as you like.

Then, may-be the slowly impression will be less present.

So now why I use a Mac:

- Stability (Jaguar is rock solid. Don't believe lies)
- Easy to administrate ( Backuping the system, removing applications easily (no registery ;) =).... )
- Ability to use Unix apps and Mac Apps (this rocks)
- Hardware compatibility (A world much compatible than linux)
- Ergonomy
- The look (subjective)

For XP addicts (I have a Duron 600 at home...) try to use a slow device on serial port or firewire port and tell me about speed to make me laugh.

OSNews Readers
by MxCl on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 11:23 UTC

I really enjoyed the article, thanks very much. I also find myself drawn towards Apple's products all the time, and am setting aside the money for a desktop with Panther when it finally emerges later this year. The more I read about Apple's products and the more I play with them at PC World the more I realise they are (by far) the best I can afford. Although WinXP adddressed a lot of Windows' main problems (stability, frequent trouble-shooting), after much playing about I cannot prefer it to my Linux box. What I want is an intel Linux box and an Apple OSX box, they will both serve their purposes with me.

As an aside, I personally wouldn't have published the article here; there's so many people who moan, whine and attack by instinct. It's so depressing. I enjoy the articles but always feel for the authors when reading the comments.

And before I get told not to read the comments, I rarely do anymore, apart from when I want to write something like "Thanks, that was good". Also, I know not everyone bitches, but there's enough of it to make me want to comment about it.

The Author Speaks...
by Stuart MacKenzie on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 12:08 UTC

Wow! What a back-lashing, but all appreciated. I must say I have eagerly awaited the comments explaining to me how dumb I am or how I made stuff up in the article. In all honesty, this was a personal article. I wrote it in an attempt to try to entertain the readers of OSNews and share my story with them. As a reader of OSNews, I often enjoy reading about other people’s experiences with things, as I consider them my peers and contemporaries. I do appreciate and have respect for every comment that was geared towards me. If you take the time to read then you are entitled to any opinion you want to give. I just wasn’t aware the world was such an angry place… hahaha. Until the next topic I can think of to stir up the bees, Cheers!

perfect Apple customer
by Chris Herborth on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 12:21 UTC

Let's see... not "up" on computer news, huge piles of disposable income, artistic sensibilities, desire to stand out in a crowd...

Jobs ownz j00!

My Mac (a rare UMAX SuperMac dual-processor clone) will soon be on eBay, unfortunately.

- chrish

Mac on a roll
by Jay on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 12:47 UTC

Actually, this is a good time to try a Mac. XP is pretty static (right now) and Longhorn is still pretty far off. Both the eMac and iMac are now responsive enough to run OS X decently. The iApps are great fun. OS X is fun, Safari is a great new browser, Mail comes with the package. The package is pretty complete to get anyone started. Like Michael always says, there is no reason to glorify the Mac, but it is a lot of fun and you can get work done on it too.

Re: floyd lloyd
by marcthepirate on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 12:49 UTC

"Am I seriously the only person here who uses multiple platforms? I must be some kind freak to have the audacity to run Linux, Windows and Macintosh on one network. I must be an even bigger freak to admit that each OS has strengths and weaknesses..."

I sense a kindred spirit. I'm running FreeBSD, Windows, and Macintosh all right next to each other (o! the humanity!), and will be the first to admit the strengths and weaknesses of each (*gasp*!). For the record, that was an excellent post, as well.

Re: floyd lloyd && marcthepirate
by fuzzyping on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 13:28 UTC

"Am I seriously the only person here who uses multiple platforms? I must be some kind freak to have the audacity to run Linux, Windows and Macintosh on one network. I must be an even bigger freak to admit that each OS has strengths and weaknesses..."

I sense a kindred spirit. I'm running FreeBSD, Windows, and Macintosh all right next to each other (o! the humanity!), and will be the first to admit the strengths and weaknesses of each (*gasp*!). For the record, that was an excellent post, as well.


We're passing into new frontiers here... OS envy! I've got an OpenBSD firewall, Red Hat Linux 8.0 server, Red Hat Linux 9.0 laptop, Windows XP workstation (for the wife), and a NetBSD 1.? running on Sparc. Yummy! ;)

-FP

This story reminds me of being a kid buying a N64
by Man at Arms on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 14:10 UTC

Nintendo had me with its '64-bit its worth the wait' crap. How disappointed I was when I finally got a N64 (IMHO of course, other people liked theirs)... had to buy a Playstation 12 months later.

Since then I'll never make a mistake like that again, I'll
always evaluate a purchase. Sad to see this guy didn't learn his lesson during his childhood.

Re: blah
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 14:16 UTC

"Mmm, if Apple had gone the other route and went for a slick, responsive OS instead of duplicating Windows resource hungry bloatware I believe they'd have a lot more converts by now."

The only hungry resources that OS X has are those that are now ofset by the graphics processor anyways... IE they're not resources eating away at processing power any more.

Sorry, better luck with your next troll...

Re: How to optimize your mac under macos x
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 14:19 UTC

"you have to admit that the Finder is slow (unless you have a bi 1 Ghz (may be they have coded it under such machines"

In earlier versions of OS X perhaps, but not anymore.

why won't people just grow up and own up to it
by appleforever on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 14:55 UTC

Look, competition is a good thing. Apple is staying alive by working harder and being better.

Why not just acknowledge how much Apple has done these past couple of years and is doing now. Why not? Why fight it? So you have a PC. Why does send you into spasms of denial and disbelief.

Look at the apple product. It really is something.

MS will not stand by idly. They are going to match apple, maybe best it, then apple comes back and does the same. Right now Apple is ahead. It just is. Stop the denial. It doesn't serve any purpose.

(That's not to say PCs aren't better for some applications, they are).

Re: How to optimize your mac under macos x
by DJ Jedi Jeff on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 15:03 UTC

I am running a dual867/512M system (10.2.6) and the Finder is terribly slow at handling large directories and multiple file operations. Moving 500 files from one directory to another should not take the Finder 2-3 minutes (when the command line can get it done in a few seconds). The Finder is slow.

Re: DJ Jedi Jeff
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 15:47 UTC

"I am running a dual867/512M system (10.2.6) and the Finder is terribly slow at handling large directories and multiple file operations."

The idential system is sitting here in front of me, and I have not experienced any of the problems you mentioned. The finder is definately not slow with the system you (we) are using.


"Moving 500 files from one directory to another should not take the Finder 2-3 minutes (when the command line can get it done in a few seconds). The Finder is slow."

I just did this task and it took.... drum roll.... a few seconds.

Sorry bud, better luck next time.

Finder
by DJ Jedi Jeff on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 16:40 UTC

So please tell me how my factory installed OS is improperly configured? Which setting is wrong?

I am not the only one with this problem. I have seen similar complaints from other users. It is also noteworthy that one of the goals stated by Apple for Panther was to speed up the Finder.

Sorry bud, get a brain and come back

To Anonymous
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 16:59 UTC

"No, I think he's talking about the G5's that beat the PC chips fair and square. Nobody knows what you're talking about... "

No, *YOUY* don't know what I'm talking about. If you'd read Slashdot too, you'd known.

http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/

All those numbers are cheated. How pathetic from Apple. Totally unable to be on par with PC market.

Re: Finder
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:02 UTC

Wow, he certenly put me in my place.

To: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:04 UTC

"No, *YOUY* don't know what I'm talking about. If you'd read Slashdot too, you'd known."

No, *YOUY* don't know what I'm talking about. If you'd read Slashdot too, YOU would have known:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/24/2154256&mode=thre...

To Anonymous
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:12 UTC

How wait, Apple is in denial of their cheatings now they got cought. How surprising.

Gimme real numbers, then we can talk. All I know now is that numbers Apple gave have been cheated. Too bad for them. Now they aren't just lesser than PCs, they are cheaters too.

Re: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:16 UTC

"How wait, Apple is in denial of their cheatings now they got cought. How surprising."

But Apple didn't cheat. You keep forgetting that in your comments.


"Gimme real numbers, then we can talk."

http://a352.g.akamai.net/7/352/51/e93ca6b90038b4/www.apple.com/powe...

http://a192.g.akamai.net/7/192/51/ebb34a6c95daa5/www.apple.com/powe...

http://a1264.g.akamai.net/7/1264/51/d297fb89c825b9/www.apple.com/g5...


"All I know now is that numbers Apple gave have been cheated."

Except for the fact that they weren't.


"Too bad for them. Now they aren't just lesser than PCs, they are cheaters too."

Stop trolling.

To Anonymous
by The Pessimist on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:32 UTC

No Troll. There's a resonable doubt, like it or not. I still wait for REAL NUMBERS, using Intel compiler for Intel plateforme, and say Metrowerk for OSX (or whatever the best compiler for OSX), and not a vanilla gnu compiler.

There's a doubt. You choose to believe them. I choose to not. Big deal.

Not everybody is in your religion. Deal with it.

Zealous
by Nathan O. on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 17:44 UTC

It's just unbelievable how riled up some people can get ;) Step back, get out of the trenches. A new day has risen over this thread, and people are still going at it. Does this fulfill anyone, knowing that they're bantering mindlessly in a public forum where other people would like to converse?

Thanks for the advice, though, about the G3's!

Re: The Pessimist
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 18:00 UTC

"No Troll. There's a resonable doubt, like it or not."

If there is, nobody has made a worthy case for it.


"I still wait for REAL NUMBERS, using Intel compiler for Intel plateforme"

OHHHHH... is THAT what you're talking about. THAT'S why you're assuming that the benchmarks were skewed. now i understand where you're coming from.

Hopefully, this clarifies things a bit for you. Veritest used gcc for both platforms, instead of Intel's compiler, simply because the benchmarks measure two things at the same time: compiler, and hardware. To test the hardware alone, you must normalize the compiler out of the equation -- using the same version and similar settings.

Keep in mind that gcc has been available on the Intel platform for a lot longer and is more optimized for Intel than for PowerPC. However, you are correct, the Dell numbers would be higher with the Intel compiler, but that the Apple numbers could be higher with a different compiler too.

The point is, if you're going to test SPEC benchmarks, you need to use similar compilers. Otherwise, all your testing is which hardware is best optomized to pump out numbers for that particular compiler.

The reason why Intel has help SPEC benchmarks so high is because their compiler was written SOLELY for the purpose of increasing SPEC numbers.

This is why its important to compare real world benchmarks alongside SPEC numbers... Because SPEC numbers kindof give you a false sense of speed. When SPEC benchmarks were tested, the G5 did better but only margionally so in most tests. In real world tests, the G5 BLASTED past the P4. However, it only did slightly better than they XEON.


"There's a doubt. You choose to believe them. I choose to not. Big deal."

I didn't believe "him" as if it was Steve jobs making the benchmarks. Rather, I believe the independent research study, the SPEC benchmarks and the real world benchmarks. Why you cling to some notion that the P4 did better despite these fact I don't know.


"Not everybody is in your religion. Deal with it."

What does Christianity have to do with my passion for computers?

Re: OS envy
by j.edwards on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 18:38 UTC

I'm running XP Pro, Windows 2000 Server, OS X Jaguar, A/UX, OpenSTEP 4.2, IRIX 6.5, BeOS (Dano), and Debian. Bring it on!

RE:floyd lloyd &marcthepirate&fuzzyping
by raul on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 18:42 UTC

I'm interested in setting up a linux or freebsd file server
for a win98/macOS8.1/MacOSX home network and I would appreciate any suggestions or comments you may may have.

Anonymous - IP: 12.105.181.---
by marcm on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 18:43 UTC

I must say this: I liked your reply, but:
- You must be working for Apple since you are so convinced that they are fair and square. Everyone cheats on marketting, benchmarks, and so on, there is nothing wrong about that because everyone is trying to sell a product.
- If you don't work for Apple, than your passion goes beyond passion. I understand the passion for a science, codind, a computer, an OS, a machine, but yours goes beyond wat's called normal, it is there on a par with fanatism. Trying to convince others how good an apple machine is, and with semi-agressive tactics is sick.
- I like their product, its nice, elegant, good, but I don't buy it because I don't need it. There is nothing I can't do at this time with my Toshiba Slacktop or my Athlon desktop, both running Slackware Linux 9.0. Digital camera works, coding works, my 2 HP printers work (both OfficeJet models, so big ones), so I don't need an apple.
- You never hear me comment that they are slower/or/faster than x86 based systems. That doesn't mean I don't know what the real-world performance of the G3 and G4 is. I've worked with both.
- You try to convince people about prices: Apple is more expensive when it comes to buy the whole system, including an Apple Display, wich are as expensive as Sony Displays, wich are tooo expensive, and I mean the TFT's
- Either you like to get attention for yourself (no, I gues not since you use a very common nick: Anonymous), or you like to convince others to buy more apples.
- Apples distorsion field is pretty obvious, the whole web-site screams: AMAZING!!!!, but when you look closer, there is nothing amazing, except preety screenshots and nice pictures whit their products. I admit, they have a cool design, I love the apple design...
Conclusion: Apple is a good (healty also), I mean a great company, but because of people like you who react to every comment about apple others bash apple, and maybe these people do it having no clue about MACs.
- I'm not sure if you get my point, but for Apples sake stop it. It doesn't bother me at all, its just a friendly advice.

Re: marcm
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 19:17 UTC

"- You must be working for Apple since you are so convinced that they are fair and square."

Nope. I don't work for Apple. I'm simply a rational human being who sees every test pointing in Apple's favor and am adopting the obvious outcome from that rational.

"Everyone cheats on marketting"

No, I don't believe that. However, I would say that every company does use marketing to make their product look as best as it can even if that marketing is deceptive. Thankfully, Apple's information is both science and marketing.


"Everyone cheats on benchmarks"

The very notion that SPEC benchmarks have been held as the ultimate authority to determine speed when Intel used a compiler that was made to do nothing more than pump out the highest SPEC benchmark may not have been "cheating" but it did weigh heavily on the minds of the ignorant computer-using public. It finally took a HUGE increase in speed (delievered by the G5) to outpace even Intel's pumped up numbers.

On that token, Apple has done similar things regarding benchmarks which weren't "cheating" but did weigh heavily on the ignorance of the computing public.

However, the G5 is not cheating or over-inflating its numbers. It is genuinly THAT fast.


"- If you don't work for Apple, than your passion goes beyond passion."

You are right. I have both a passion for my preferred computing environment, AND an extreme hatred for anyone that tries to muddy the waters for my preferred platform's strengths. This is because I've seen my preferred platform experience uncomfortable lows in its earlier history for reasons which trace back specifically to individuals that muddied the waters with regard to Apple's strengths.


"I understand the passion for a science, codind, a computer, an OS, a machine, but yours goes beyond wat's called normal, it is there on a par with fanatism."

If it were only my passion for my computer that was compelling me to write so many comments then you might have a point. But as mentioned 9above) there are two factors at work here. The great of the two is the hatred for anyone that tries to muddy the waters.


"Trying to convince others how good an apple machine is, and with semi-agressive tactics is sick."

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to evangelize my preferred platform. I simply am working towards reversing the FUD engine that is occurring on this site for my preferred platform.



"- I like their product, its nice, elegant, good, but I don't buy it because I don't need it."

No problem with that at all.


"There is nothing I can't do at this time with my Toshiba Slacktop or my Athlon desktop, both running Slackware Linux 9.0. Digital camera works, coding works, my 2 HP printers work (both OfficeJet models, so big ones), so I don't need an apple."

Sounds like you have a nice configurations there. however, Apple's software does provide some unique advantages that you cant get on those systems. Is that reason enough to change platforms? Maybe not by itself, but Apple also offers other key advantages. Without knowing everything you do I can't communicate those to you. No, I'm not asking you to, I'm simply suggesting that to say that Apple doesn't offer you anything that you can't already get from your current systems is a pretty broad statement.


"- You try to convince people about prices"

Im simply correcting false statements. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.


"Apple is more expensive when it comes to buy the whole system, including an Apple Display, wich are as expensive as Sony Displays, wich are tooo expensive, and I mean the TFT's"

You don't have to buy an Apple display for a Mac you know, just like you don;t have to buy an Apple display for a PC. if you were to do so however, and also spec'd out both systems with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software configurations, the mac will either be slightly more, the same price, slightly less, or significantly less.


"- Either you like to get attention for yourself (no, I gues not since you use a very common nick: Anonymous), or you like to convince others to buy more apples."

No and no. I'm simply trying to correct the misinformation being spread by a small number of individuals on this site.


- Apples distorsion field is pretty obvious

If by distortion field you mean that they are good marketers... then yes, they are. If by saying distortion field you're trying to imply that Apple is somehow distorting something, I think you're wrong.


"the whole web-site screams: AMAZING!!!!"

That's simply overindulgent marketing... not a distortion. The products are indeed amazing. Are they "AMAZING!!!!" probably not, but thats not a distortion.


"when you look closer, there is nothing amazing"

Many would disagree. The software that Apple sells is pretty amazing. Much of it is best of breed quality for both consumers and professionals. Software that couldn;t be had anywhere else until more companies copied Apple. Similarly, their hardware designs are amazing. Apple has received more industrial design awards than i care to count. i would say that is amazing. Another example can be found with the G5. I would say that the technology that was incorporated into it is amazing indeed .


"Conclusion: Apple is a good (healty also), I mean a great company, but because of people like you who react to every comment about apple others bash apple, and maybe these people do it having no clue about MACs."

If I'm causing some sort of disservice to Apple or the Mac by correcting all the misstatements about my platform, its unfortunate. I certainly don't believe I am, But if I am thats unfortunate. However, considering that the alternative would be that these incorrect statements would go left uncorrected thus potentially leaving many readers with an ill-conceived notion about a computer that they are already both unfamiliar if not already skeptical about, i think I'll take the lesser of the two evils and continue doing what I'm doing.

RE: Wasting money
by Hobo Songs on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 19:40 UTC

I am fascinated by the effortless wisdom displayed by TARAS, whose neat, orderly paragraph structure is undone by her inability to reign in her jabber. Her response reveals itself a sanctimonious torrent about little of relevance, self-championship aside. I am confident the YAY-sandwich felt like pure genius at the time . . . but the writing and spirit convey only pettiness, nothing of value, and demonstrate nothing more than a transparent plea for praise.

So where is it, eh?

Raul-
by Floyd Lloyd on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 20:31 UTC

I'm interested in setting up a linux or freebsd file server for a win98/macOS8.1/MacOSX home network and I would appreciate any suggestions or comments you may may have.

Well, I don't know much about the *BSDs. I never really got into them, but I have seen them in action, and they seem solid - some would say more solid than Linux. Any Linux distribution will work well in that environment. If you have never used Linux before, I'd suggest purchasing one of the much maligned RPM based packages. They come with manuals, which is extremely nice, and they are reasonably priced. Yes, you can get them *free*, but I think the refusal to pay for Linux software is what is really screwing up the Linux scene. So live a little, pull out your wallet, and plunk town $80 for server class software. You won't be as 1337 as the folks who install by binary, but you will be done faster, and have everything you need on 5 to 10 CDs or a DVD. You will still be more 1337 than 98% of the population, if that matters to you.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to integrate pre X macs into a network - it can be done, and I'm sure there's lots of online documentation, but I cannot offer advice on the subject. For the mac OSX you won't need to do much for file sharing, just export whichever directories you want shared. For win98 you will need to setup SAMBA on your Linux box. This is usually really easily done -- it requires editing some .conf files, and running some command line commands, but over all it isn't too hard with the correct documentation. The bottom line is that if you have a spare box, and some time to kill, I'd really just recommend playing around with it until you get a good feeling for what you are doing. It won't be as easy and installing and clicking a few buttons, but it won't be as hard as many people imagine it will be either.

Dude get with the times
by akuma on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 21:09 UTC

I've been running Mac OS X for about 2 years now and in that whole time nothing has crashed (other aside than IE which i haven't used that much and have replaced in favor of Mozilla, Camino & Safari.) All these things i've heard about Mac OS X constantly crashing and the GUI wouldn't let people delete things i've never experienced nor have i heard from anyone I've ever meet having any significant difficulty with Mac OS X.

From a PC users point of view Steve Jobs has gotten Apple set up to regain what it had by introducing Mac OS X and new hardware. The only people i can see having difficulty are the ones who complain that the one specific app i ran doesn't run on Mac OS X or they don't like the way it runs in Windows on Virutal PC. I've run lots of things from MS Office, Visual Studio 6 & .NET, Personal COBOL (which is unfortunitly required for some classes i take), Some nice custom apps people have written. The only thing that you could complain about is running games which says something about you if you are stupid enough to run games (other than onces like solitare or chess) on Virtual PC. The only thing i don't like about VPC is sometimes it starts up slow, but you have to take into account it doesn't matter what hardware you run an emulated OS on, you are runnning your native OS and another OS on top of that so the emulated OS will always be somewhat slow.

Asking the wife for permission
by Jonathan Groll on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 21:23 UTC

Loved the article, could really relate to the love of wonderful looking technology. One thing that did stick out is the constant reference to asking the wife for permission to buy some new hardware as if she were an ogre or something. Just a thought...

Asking the wife for permission
by Anonymous on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 21:40 UTC

"One thing that did stick out is the constant reference to asking the wife for permission to buy some new hardware as if she were an ogre or something. Just a thought..."

Heh, you must not be married.

Try spending a couple grand on the credit card without asking permission first then watch that lovely, beautiful little women that you dedicated your life to, turn into a mean slathering wilderbeast once she sees the unmentioned bill.

I've done it once before, and I've learned my lesson.
*ALWAYS ASK PERMISSION FIRST*

RE:Raul
by Raul on Thu 3rd Jul 2003 22:58 UTC

Thanks


Re: "I want a mac"
by -=StephenB=- on Fri 4th Jul 2003 01:26 UTC

[quote]next time I buy something home, it's either Mac or something that runs BeOS/OBOS...[/quote]

Yeah, you should get a BeBox. Zeta running on dual 166 PPCs would probably be about as fast as OS X running on dual 1.2Ghz G4s ;)

different strokes for different folks
by Or Villewright on Fri 4th Jul 2003 02:18 UTC

Here's a painfully obvious truth: some percentage of the population can find happiness with Macs, just as others do with Windows or Linux or FreeBSD or even BeOS.

This is hardly a difficult concept to understand. Different strokes for different folks, as the old saying goes. So why do some of us have to bitch, moan, argue, and fight over this constantly? Just because someone else doesn't share your tastes does not mean they are stupid, evil, or misguided. Just because you don't share their tastes, that doesn't make you stupid, evil, or misguided either.

Macolytes, calm down. PC fanboys, take a couple of calming breaths. OS zealots, close your eyes and chant "Ommmm" for a few minutes. All better? Okay, come back and join the rest of us folks on this site, and let's discuss something with a little more substance than Mac vs PC preferences!


-Or Villewright

Re: Asking the wife for permission
by Robin Colcord on Fri 4th Jul 2003 02:48 UTC

One thing that did stick out is the constant reference to asking the wife for permission to buy some new hardware as if she were an ogre or something. Just a thought...
------------------------------------------
I didn't see a single reference to asking for permission. The writer refers to discussing an expensive purchase with his wife before making the decision to spend their joint money, which is an absolutely essential component of any well balanced marriage. Your spouse is your financial partner as well as your life partner, and as such should be part of all major spending decisions. All major spending decisions should be joint ones.

If you really believe you can be in a relationship with someone without sharing power and responsibilities with them, you're in for either a succession of unhappy relationships, or some painful emotional growing up which is evidently overdue.

I suggest a major attitude adjustment; grow up a little, you're not ready for an adult relationship yet.

R Colcord

RE:Anonymous (IP: 12.105.181.---)
by Wrawrat on Fri 4th Jul 2003 07:24 UTC

No, I don't believe that. However, I would say that every company does use marketing to make their product look as best as it can even if that marketing is deceptive. Thankfully, Apple's information is both science and marketing.

Err. You sound like a fanboy, so I already know that it's pointless to argue with you, but what the hell...

The very notion that SPEC benchmarks have been held as the ultimate authority to determine speed when Intel used a compiler that was made to do nothing more than pump out the highest SPEC benchmark may not have been "cheating" but it did weigh heavily on the minds of the ignorant computer-using public. It finally took a HUGE increase in speed (delievered by the G5) to outpace even Intel's pumped up numbers.

AFAIK, the SPEC numbers for the P4/XEON that Apple used didn't came from ICC, but from GCC, so how can you say that they outpaced their pumped up numbers? Btw, real applications are using ICC, so it's hardly a compiler *only* for SPEC benchmarketing.

On that token, Apple has done similar things regarding benchmarks which weren't "cheating" but did weigh heavily on the ignorance of the computing public.

Right... Like what?

However, the G5 is not cheating or over-inflating its numbers. It is genuinly THAT fast.

Let's see... Did you tried the machine? No? Then you believe claims that comes straight from Jobs' mouth. Maybe it's as fast as they claim, but we can't test it, so we can only believe their numbers. Keyword: believe. Perhaps they are right, but you and I don't really know how good they are because we didn't tested them. I'll only believe reports from independent reviewers, and I don't consider the report they got from Veritest (is that the name? I don't remember) and that they have paid for as "independant".

Im simply correcting false statements. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.
[...]
You don't have to buy an Apple display for a Mac you know, just like you don;t have to buy an Apple display for a PC. if you were to do so however, and also spec'd out both systems with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software configurations, the mac will either be slightly more, the same price, slightly less, or significantly less.


I like this argument. In the end, it depends where you live. Macs tend to be really expensive here, especially the low-end ones. The only exception is the Dual G5 2GHz (the price/performance ratio seems great), but it's not in my price range, anyway.

Fanaticisim
by craig on Fri 4th Jul 2003 09:18 UTC

I will be the first to admit us Mac owners can be a bit fanatical, but we really get tired of having our Windows owning friends coming to us with problems that either don't exist on a Mac or would be so easily fixable. Like today I was showing someone on a PC a website and like so many times before I see their nice big 19 inch monitor set to 800X600 resolution. When I explain that maybe they would like to set it at something higher that would allow them see more on their screen, especially since they are using that stupid MSN explorer that takes up half the space all I get is a blank stare like I was suggesting the impossible. They not only don't know what screen resolution is they have no idea how to change it. Not surprising since it involves so many steps in Windows. Almost as bad as when I come across a PC user who still has their monitor set to 256 colors and can't understand why photos look like crap. And how many times have I heard how they are afraid to add more software because the last time they tried it screwed up their computer and they couldn't figure out how to get rid of it. Now of course by default any PC user reading OSnews knows the ins and outs of Windows and doesn't have these problems, but unfortunately none of my friends fall into this class of people so it is up to me to deal with this kind of petty issues. The few I have been able to switch to Macs can't believe how much easier they are to use. I would say that the real difference is that Windows makes them feel like an idiot and the Mac makes them feel like a genius because they can just do things. Those things were doable on their old PCs, just in more complicated and confusing ways that they never could master. They originally bought a PC because they used one at work, not appreciating the fact that they had an IT guy there who kept things running smoothly who wouldn't be around at home. These things are just frustrating to us Mac dudes and make us a bit defensive at times when we hear people spout the same old, outdated arguments against Macs.

As for the Spec thing I don't give a hoot about obscure numbers, it is the real world tests that count and those looked pretty impressive...and it wasn't Steve Jobs doing these demos, it was the companies who write the software. I can't believe how easily people take that haxial guy as knowing what he is talking about...take a look here for a more reasonable article: http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/display_news.cfm?NewsID=3010

Re: DJ Jedi Jeff
by deasys on Sat 5th Jul 2003 20:07 UTC

"Moving 500 files from one directory to another should not take the Finder 2-3 minutes"

Huh? I just tried a similar test on a G4/400 AGP--a 4 year old mid-range Mac running OS X 10.2.6. I used the Finder to copy the contents of a folder containing 693 top-level items including 21 enclosed folders--a total of well over 1,000 files--to a folder on another disk.

Total time: 60 seconds flat.

It seems to me that your dual 867 is seriously fsck'd up, dude...

TAKE IT EASY
by Relax on Sun 6th Jul 2003 15:18 UTC

please people........
I really enjoyed reading the article, the guy has a talent for writing IMHO.
But reading all the name calling and flames and swearing and what have ya.....


PLEASE , it's only computers...........

read again and calm down
by Relax on Sun 6th Jul 2003 15:20 UTC

please people........
I really enjoyed reading the article, the guy has a talent for writing IMHO.
But reading all the name calling and flames and swearing and what have ya.....


PLEASE , it's only computers...........

Why do Windows users even CARE about Macs?
by Kai Cherry on Mon 7th Jul 2003 17:43 UTC

I cannot for the life of me figure this out.

I also cannot figure out why if I tell someone that is patiently explaining a problem to me on a Win32 machine, and the myriad steps they take to attempt resolution, before we dive in and work it out I say:

"Oh. Ok, well on my Powerbook I just do this: (1-2 steps)"

I'm greeted with anger.

Look, you guys with Windows have "won" OK? We get it...there are more of you.

HOWEVER, there is another side to all of thie pissing and moaning that needs to be considered and I wish to GOD someone would point this out:

Not everyone likes Windows ;) It has use issues that cannot be objectively ignored...*at any price*.

I mean honestly. Why does it always come down to "I can part one together for $XXX" or "I can go to walmart and grab a box for $YYY"...

If the epitome of computing is to be "how inexpensively" it can be done isntead of "how well" then what is hell is all the rikita-rakita about?

I also want to come out and state that I find this whole "rich people" thing offensive as well, because I know I for one am not by any stretch of the imagination some "rich person" with the "mentality of a 12 year old" that is "easily duped" by Steve Jobs.

The fact of the matter is, Windows PC's are "good enough" plain and simple. If you can pop a CD in it, move a mouse, see the screen, type, etc, then for most peoples and most uses they are JUST FINE.

As a Mac user, I came to this conclusion long ago, and Mr. "Correcting MudSlinging" is in fact a RELIC people of the days of Joe Ragosta and The Stomping Usenet Mac Mafia.

No one gives a RAT's ASS about FUD correction; all it does is fan the flames.

Its not "FUD" to Windows users with a vested interest in the Win32 Platform; its the truth, as they see it.

Same on the Mac side. There are folks that have NO END of problems using MacOS X, and most of them are former MacOS *9* users that think (no surprise here) that they know more than the combined Engineering, Marketing and Research arms of Apple combined about how the thing "ought" to work.

To state that Macs are "painless" in virtually all instances is as ridiculous as the "MACs suck because they are too expensive and have no software. They are slow and MAC users are all elitist snobs" nonsense.

If you can't be *honest* about the shortcomings of your platform of choice *as seen thru the eyes of others* than you are indeed a fanactic.

Regardless of platform.

-K

Re:I Have The Power!!!
by Mr. Bitterness on Mon 7th Jul 2003 19:11 UTC

I Run a setup Much like that, but with a twist, I use all of them on the same machine! Multiple Platforms Same Machine. I can do it all on my Mighty powerful 400 MHZ Powerbook G3 with lots of ram. I run Linux (used to before Jaguar, still have it on my drive though, using it when I want to use the Gimp 1.3 (unstable) at full speed) I also have Windoze 98 installed with Virtual PC, I have Mac OS X jaguar Installed and I also have OS 9 installed. So I think that 4 OS's on the same network, let alone same machine, is entirely possible. On my network at home I also have two macs, One running Mac OS 8.6 the other running OS 9.1 and one PC running Windoze XP.

But to comment on other comments (I guess), My mac takes everything in stride, running every program that I throw at it and every peripheral (I don't Throw printers at my macs though :-) ) While My Win XP machine Sucks, I have reinstalled Windoze 36 times in the past 6 months. Everytime before the 36 it kept booting into a blue screen GRR :-< .
No More Windows For Me, I learned My lesson. The only reason I run it in VPC is because I have 3 or 4 programs that I Don't want to pay the upgrade price for :-<

Re:Solutions to Keyboard & Dock gripes
by Corpus on Thu 10th Jul 2003 15:59 UTC

I'm sure someone has already responded with these solutions, but JSYK:

Gripe:
< - Keyboard handling. I'm a code monkey. In Windows EVERYTHING is keyboard navigatable. Ok not everything, there are exceptions. The Mac isn't consistent here. Newbees may like mousing around, I don't. There is not way to get to the menu via the keyboard.... SNIP>

I'm not sure which OS you are using but as of (I think) 10.2 there is a "Full Keyboard Access" tab in the Keyboard control panel that should solve (most of) the problem(s) for you. I am not positive when it was first introduced, but I know it is in 10.2.4 which is what I use.

Gripe:
< - The dock gets in the way. The iBook has limited screen real estate and anything that takes away from it is a pain. I could make it really small but then it becomes hard to use.>

I use the "Automatically hide and show the Dock" option in the Dock control panel. Since I have my Dock at the bottom of my screen it is a pretty easy matter to move the mouse (cursor) to the bottom and the Dock automatically pops up, after making my choice the Dock automatically disappears as soon as the cursor is moved away.
I really like this option but YMMV and I am also more used to it because I used a similar 3rd party app in OS9. You can also enable the Magnification feature so that even small icons grow enough to be easily recognizable as the cursor rolls over them..some find this annoying though.
There are a number of 3rd party apps/hacks available, of course some work better than others, but a few I really like are Fruit Menu from Unsanity (I think it was $19), Clear Dock also from Unsanity (Free), Dragstrip from Aladdin( I think it was $25), and Coctail (Free)