Linked by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 10:50 UTC
Amiga & AROS Fleecy Moss has answered 10 new Amiga community questions addressing various topics at the AmigaWorld.net portal. Amiga Inc also opened a new community exchange homepage. Here people can contribute various software and art of which some will be selected by the community to be included on the AmigaOS4 CD.
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good marketing on the cheap
by me on Sun 20th Jul 2003 11:07 UTC

This Q&A thing makes the new Amiga platform look more like a serious proposition. I can see thousands of units being sold on these interviews alone.

More plans
by Lando^Trinity on Sun 20th Jul 2003 11:21 UTC

"A strategy is underway..."
"We have plans to..."
"Our plan is..."
"Eventually it will..."
"There will be..."

Do I detect a theme here?

Considering that Amiga Inc currently have no products (AmigaDE is dead - no new development), no money (they still haven't been able to afford T-shirts for the 1200 people who joined their $50 club), no office (their landlord locked them out for non-payment of rent and sold the contents), and no development staff (they all left or were fired after working unpaid for months at a time) their grand "plans" are worth less than nothing.

Every plan, announcement, and promise that this company has made so far has failed to materialise. In fact, some have just been downright lies. Yet all they can do is carry on making more plans and announcements.

AInc have just yesterday broken their latest promise (that their "is-he-or-isn't-he CEO" would attend Amiwest) due to him being in court the day before for not paying an employee.

Re: More plans
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 12:14 UTC

It's as easy as 1-2-3, as long as the Amiga community asks and is interested in Amiga's plans for the future such questions will be answered.

> Considering that Amiga Inc currently have no products

AmigaDE products are still available and G3/G4 powered Amiga licensed AmigaOne-XE hardware is also available.

> (AmigaDE is dead - no new development)

Incorrect. It's true however that the development of Tao's new SDK and technologies took much longer than originally anticipated (the AmigaDE core), but Tao is finally delivering now. :-)

> 1200 people who joined their $50 club

Most of the ~1200 people who joined the club seem to be satisfied with what club has become and with their lifetime club membership. As these people are planned to get a full refund (and free T-Shirt) for the new Amiga when available, a vast majority still seem to be pretty satisfied with the deal. :-)

> and no development staff

That's not true, all essential employees are still there. Of course, as with most (smaller and big) US tech firms after the tech bubble collapse and general economic slowdown some non essential employees had to go and Amiga's path was not sowed with rose petals.

> Every plan, announcement, and promise that this company
> has made so far has failed to materialise.

Most plans were cancelled by 3rd parties due to market conditions. Amiga did not make Nokia, Sharp, Sendo and other companies cancel their new products, (Amiga sadly is not that powerful...) and sadly only Microsoft proved to be a somewhat reliable partner for actually delivering products thus far...

> AInc have just yesterday broken their latest promise

They announced an intention, also to help the AmiWest organizers with coverage, but sadly due to non revealed circumstances Bill will not be able to attend the event. Bill did attend the last AmiWest shows and travelled to Europe and Australia to meet with the Amiga community in the past. Amiga will still be well presented at the event only without Bill McEwen. Good to see you care so much though. ;)

Re: More plans
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 12:19 UTC

If the answers are about future plans, that is because the questions are about future plans. Obviously any plan implies "if we can".

Although the Amiga OS is being ported and upgraded by Hyperion rather than Amiga Inc, fleecy moss does keep in close touch with what is going on, and provides general encouragement to the largely volunteer team of developers.

These answers suggest that his ideas about the OS have become much more realistic than they were 3 years ago, when he thought Tao's Intent could replace AmigaOS completely, even on the desktop. But even intelligent people can learn. ;-)

Note that fleecy lives in the UK and is rather distant from the rest of Amiga Inc.

Orthogonal persistence
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 12:21 UTC

fleecy moss is a great fan of Orthogonal Persistence.

It seems to me that this would be nothing but a nuisance on a desktop system. I want saving of data to a file to be a conscious deliberate act.

Has anyone here any experience of actually using an OS with orthogonal persistence? Comments?

Re: Orthogonal persistence
by Onno on Sun 20th Jul 2003 12:57 UTC

Well. I've been working with PDA's a lot and I love the fact that I don't have to save the notes I scribble on. Just put in a note and turn the device off. It will be there when I turn the device back on. I love that. And I still have the option to save the notes as a file if I choose to do so.
Would love to see that on a desktop as well. I also tought classes of computer illiterate's to work with Windows. The part they all have the most problems with is the file-system and locating/loading/saving their files in proper locations. Orthogonal Persistence might make it easier for those people to work with their computer.

Regards,

Onno

Re: orthogonal persistence
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 13:43 UTC

"Would love to see that on a desktop as well. I also tought classes of computer illiterates to work with Windows. The part they all have the most problems with is the file-system and locating/loading/saving their files in proper locations. Orthogonal Persistence might make it easier for those people to work with their computer."

I can see the point for a pocket size notebook, and I know that beginners have to learn about saving (I've taught plenty myself). But once a person is no longer a beginner on the desktop and needs to do some serious work in, for example, Photoshop, they will have to manage and organise the data to suit the project.

You do not want the system saving a changed version of an image over the top of the original. You probably want to save various versions that you have made. You want to give the versions sensible file names so that you can find them again. You might well want to burn them to a CD for somebody else to use, or just to clear disk space.

I can't see orthogonal persistence as being anything other than a PIA when you are trying to get some serious work done.

How would it work with a CVS system, for instance?

Don
by Lennart Fridén on Sun 20th Jul 2003 15:18 UTC

Orthogonal persistance can be implemented as saving your crrent work in progress as a hidden file for example. You can always revert to any file that you have saved previously, simply because the work-in-progress file is never saved on top of a file you've saved.

Imagine loading an image named blah.png in your image editor, dabble a little with it and then shutdown the computer. The day after, you start your computer, launch your image editor (or it is launch automagically if you didn't quit the program before shutting down the computer) and lo and behold, your modified image pops up.

You think "hmm...not too pleased with it, might as well start from the beginning" and revert to your file blah.png which, of course, is non-dabbled with so to speak.

RE: Don
by Onno on Sun 20th Jul 2003 15:55 UTC

Or you could press CTRL-Z again to undo the last changes before you shutdown the computer, since all the internal objects from a program are stored as well.

And saving/exporting a file would still be possible. Just not required while you are still working on it. You're data would just be much safer with orthogonal persistence.

Re: Orthogonal persistence
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 16:13 UTC

Within an orthogonal persistent OS, 3rd party applications do not need to take any action to be recoverable. For instance if the power cord to your computer was accidentally knocked out, or other kinds of power failure, the next time your computer boots up the system it will recover itself to a saved state of all the software running. This feature adds alot of security and has found its use in mainframes.

Personally I believe general computing at some point made a terrible 'wrong turn' and IMO computers should have become much easier to use. For example with the classic Amiga people could simply put a CD or disk into their machine, turn on the computer and start playing a game, instantly booting an AudioCD or VideoCD or start an application. Sadly with the PC becoming dominant people had to do all kinds of complex actions to get software to function at all (Sadly this way of doing things is now also the standard for Amigas to a great extend, this due to various reasons, IMO including the the domination of a "PC/Mac way of doing things"). With the PC there is now still no satisfying capability to start demanding software instantly, just like a modern consoles does or a movie like a DVD-player does. A shame and a missed oppertunity IMO.

Personally I see alot of potential for a more 'orthogonally persistent' system. For example in combination with IBM's Magentic RAM (MRAM) technology. MRAM allows data to be kept in memory even while the computer is turned off. This new type of RAM should result into ‘instant on' computers, allowing users to turn computers on and off as quickly as a light switch!

http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/20001207_mramimages.shtm...

Just imagine being able to turn off your system during painting a picture, playing a game or watching a movie and turn it back on to see the system instantly return to exactly the same state! I believe such features would make computers and devices much more like ordinary home appliances and much more natural to use.

Amiga's aim has always been to make things as simple to both developers and users as possible and therefor the intent approach of being able to program in any programming language *platform independently*, while being able to offer this transparently to the user appealed alot to the Amiga team and so they formed a partnership with Tao for using this excellent technology as a foundation.

Re: More plans
by Lando^Trinity on Sun 20th Jul 2003 16:23 UTC

What I was getting at is this:-

When Amino first bought the Amiga name, they had the plush offices, they had the money, they had the talented staff, they had the the goodwill of the Amiga community, and they had the resources to accomplish something. And still they couldnt, in three years.

Now, the offices are gone, the money is gone, the goodwill is gone, the staff are gone, the enthusiasm has gone. It is obvious that not one of these "plans" has even the remotest chance of coming to fruition. So, why bother with these Q&A sessons? It's just wasting our time and geting people's hopes up. It isn't right.

AmigaDE gamepaks are written by third parties who bought the SDK, and built upon TAO's intent technology.

The AmigaOne boards are a reference design by MAI which are manufactured in the Far East and then distributed by Eyetech who pay Amiga Inc $40-$50 /unit to be allowed to call them Amiga.

Calling them Amiga Inc products is an insult to the people who did all the work.

v non revealed circumstances...
by Anonymous on Sun 20th Jul 2003 16:34 UTC
Re: More plans
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 17:02 UTC

The talented staff is still at the company and there is alot of enthusiasm and a great devotion left to keep things moving forward. This not only among Amiga Inc employees themselves, but also the large AmigaOS4 development team under leadership of Hyperion, Eyetech and Mai regarding the AmigaOne hardware, the AmigaDE development teams and various other supporters.

The plans are very ambitious and something Amiga nor any other small company can pull of by itself alone. Luckily there still is a strong community of companies, independent developers and users who have continued to push forward all these efforts, even during difficult periods.

Also remember that Amiga Inc initially attracted the multi-million dollar investments for their AmigaDE projects only and thus that developing AmigaOS4 seemed not to be a viable option at the time. Luckily 3rd party partnerships allowed projects to progress nevertheless and IMO the results are already very impressive!

> Calling them Amiga Inc products is an insult to the
> people who did all the work.

The community of involved companies and individuals *want* these projects to be officially Amiga branded and want to use Amiga's IP. I believe certain individuals, including you, should be alot more open and tolerant towards partnerships for the sake showing a constructive attitude. Why should everything be developed under one umbrella? IMO 3rd party partnerships generally lead to much more flexibiliy and fewer (spread) risks.

Why would it have to matter that a Far East company manufactures Mai's board designs, instead of Mai themselves? Or that Hyperion developed the BootROM and other 3rd parties including Eyetech tested the hardware, etc, etc. Isn't the eventual end result much more important than all this nitpicking: But Tao wrote the AmigaDE core... blah...blah... Within such a world view there is only room for mammoth companies doing everything by themselves.

Did company "A" mine the Metal ore used in their computers themselves? Did company "A" manufacture all the transisters themselves? Etc..... All were unconstructive questions one could ask....

v Re: non revealed circumstances...
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 17:21 UTC
v Re: non revealed circumstances...
by Anonymous on Sun 20th Jul 2003 17:31 UTC
Developers, anyone?
by anon on Sun 20th Jul 2003 17:38 UTC

Does this Amiga company's developers post anywhere, perhaps have a blog? This fixation on the CEO is disturbing, and the hyperactive rumormill on Amiga forums (and here) is only matched by the Dave Winer circus.

v Re: non revealed circumstances...
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 17:47 UTC
Judging from that Community page...
by Anonymous on Sun 20th Jul 2003 18:51 UTC

Oh boy! I get 16 bad desktop backgrounds if I buy OS4! Where do I sign up?

Re: orthogonal persistence
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 18:53 UTC

"Just imagine being able to turn off your system during painting a picture, playing a game or watching a movie and turn it back on to see the system instantly return to exactly the same state! I believe such features would make computers and devices much more like ordinary home appliances and much more natural to use."

IMO that would be highly annoying and inconvenient. The Mac had the tiresome habit of opening all the windows you had open when you shut it down (maybe it still does).

When I switch off or reboot the computer it is because I have finished work. I want to start again with a clean setup - no programs open, no directory windows open on the Workbench, no RAM in use (except for the usual utilities that run in the background).

I certainly don't want all the programs I had open yesterday open again today. Nor do I want to have to do a formal shutdown as on Windows etc.

Re: Developers
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 19:01 UTC

"Does this Amiga company's developers post anywhere, perhaps have a blog? This fixation on the CEO is disturbing, and the hyperactive rumormill on Amiga forums (and here) is only matched by the Dave Winer circus."

Bear in mind that the OS4 team is coordinated by Hyperion, not by Amiga Inc directly.

They post all over the place, but mostly on the mailing lists of the various programs they develop. For example, Olaf Barthel also maintains the Amiga port of Samba, so he regularly posts there. He did the updated filesystem and the new TCP stack, and is responsible for assembling the Developer CD for AmigaOS.

The guys who have been working on the kernel often post on amigaworld.net, but are quiet at the moment because they are (presumably) trying to get as much as possible done before the Amiwest show.

Re: Judging by...
by Don Cox on Sun 20th Jul 2003 19:04 UTC

"Oh boy! I get 16 bad desktop backgrounds if I buy OS4! Where do I sign up?"

Yes, and the EULA says you are obliged to use them or pay a financial penalty to be decided by the company. ;-)

Personally, I grab pictures off the Web Museum or Hubble.

Re: orthogonal persistence
by Mike Bouma on Sun 20th Jul 2003 19:11 UTC

> IMO that would be highly annoying and inconvenient. The
> Mac had the tiresome habit of opening all the windows
> you had open when you shut it down (maybe it still
> does).

MRAM should allow the user to switch everything back on with the speed of switching on a light bulb (or probably rather a modern TV)! ;)

All the data is already present in the memory (similar to ROM chips, but rewritable), that's the cool feature of this new type of RAM.

> want to start again with a clean setup - no programs
> open, no directory windows open on the Workbench, no RAM
> in use (except for the usual utilities that run in the
> background).

I see no unsolvable problem here, why not press the reset button and load everything from the harddrive into the memory again?

Deliberately Vague
by Chris D.Emery on Sun 20th Jul 2003 19:49 UTC

I've read all of Moss's Q&A sessions and frankly they remind me of interviews with obscure dictators: Carefully scripted and deliberately, deniably vague

Maybe its just a personal style that grates but Moss's words inspire distrust in me.

v Stop Being Silly Mike
by Tigger on Sun 20th Jul 2003 22:44 UTC
Why do people try to resurrect the Amiga?
by Mike on Mon 21st Jul 2003 01:54 UTC

Why do people try to resurrect the Amiga? What purpose or niche can it fill in the computer industry? I don't see a need for it, and to me, it feels like a waste of money and time for people to continue trying to develop it.

Could someone please enlighten me?

Thanks

re: why do people try to resurrect the amiga?
by Vincent on Mon 21st Jul 2003 02:55 UTC

Mainly because they have fond memories of it and are presently dissatisfied with computers currently. So people end up wanting what they remember as being a good time. Unfortunately, you really can't go back - its never really the same.

But the amiga community is stubborn, like the beos community, so they will probably find some way of convincing themselves they can do it.

Ya think?
by Jay Miner on Mon 21st Jul 2003 03:11 UTC

Let me just say that architecturally the x86 series of computers is flawed and will never, and I say NEVER, be geared towards being a TRUE multimedia machine. Try as it might, it will by brute force (Ghz) simulate the feeling of a real multimedia powerhouse, but as long as you have an overbloated pentium core that is unoptimized for true mutitasking and uses bloatware s/w to achive mediocre productivity, there is little impetus to achieving what a real commodore built machine would achieve given the same resources.

Its a real shame that in the end, the inferior platform won. And with it, sounded the death knell to true multimedia multitasking computing - in essence we all LOST.

Will there ever be a real multimedia computer in the future? Maybe one day, one day when x86 finally dies and a new 64bit cpu solution is found. But until then, every amiga enthusiast will be hoping for a better solution. And if that comes in form of OS4. Then so be it!

v Amiga is done
by MoronPeeCeeUSR on Mon 21st Jul 2003 03:47 UTC
v Stop trolling please
by Mike Bouma on Mon 21st Jul 2003 04:26 UTC
Re: Ya think?
by Anonymous on Mon 21st Jul 2003 05:17 UTC

There is no reason that the x86 line of machines can't be a 'TRUE multimedia machine'. It's just a CPU, like any other. It's got registers, interrupts, opcodes, etc. So has pretty much every CPU in the past 25 years, including the M68000 and PPC families. Name a SINGLE technical reason that an x86 machine can't do multimedia? You claim 'an overbloated pentium core ... is unoptimized for true mutitasking' What, exactly, is 'true multitasking'? I want a detailed description of the magical piece of technology that was in the Motorola 68K and PPC CPU's that x86's don't have. I'm not talking about Altivec vs. SSE, I mean some revolutionary unit that 1) is totally in conflict with integrating into an x86 and 2) actually existed somewhere outside of your imagination. Bear in mind that I used to use Amiga's and I currently use PC's so you can't just wave your hands around and claim that I haven't really experienced the difference.

This kind of uninformed drivel posted under the name 'Jay Miner' is an absolute affront to how brilliant that man was. Have some fucking respect and change your handle.

OS$ screenshots look like shit...
by kevin meier on Mon 21st Jul 2003 05:18 UTC

just my opinion...but for a multimedia "powerhouse" it sure is damned ugly...

@Vincent,

Wow!! you sound like an expert on this subject!
What platform died on you that you cant bring back?
You sound bitter?

Good Q&A
by DK on Mon 21st Jul 2003 06:16 UTC

I found this Q&A interesting and positive. An AmigaOne-Lite in A1200-like case sounds nice.

Re: Why do people try to resurrect the Amiga?
by me on Mon 21st Jul 2003 06:20 UTC

because we owned an Amiga and it was fun and trouble-free, but ever since computers have been for us a survival course of faulty hardware, buggy software, operating system crashes, moronic software design and stupid games you wish you hadn't bought. The Amiga obsession is a yerning for times past.

v Mike B
by Kim Andrè Ødegaard on Mon 21st Jul 2003 06:36 UTC
v Amiga Inc is not paying its Employees
by Tigger on Mon 21st Jul 2003 07:47 UTC
RE: Mike B
by Morty Monty on Mon 21st Jul 2003 07:51 UTC

Just don't read MB threads if they make you sick.
IMO they are highly informative and I like them.

Re: Tig
by DaveP on Mon 21st Jul 2003 08:36 UTC

Tigger

Firstly I just read the moderated down comments, and Mike has moderated his own off topic comments already. He may have missed one, give the guy a break.

Secondly, and this is going to get me moderated off topic, I understand you and a few others have a personal campaign to hold Amiga Inc to account in public regardless of whether or not the legal system is doing an already effective job in this. Fair enough. But please remember that court documents show a snapshot in time, settlement could be made today or yesterday ( is it to the court in the US or to the person? ) or whenever and you would not see it on Rich "posting peoples marriage licenses on a public website is fine" Woods' conspiracy site ( http://www.merlancia.us ) where you get your info.

Thirdly, I was aware that an ex-employee was sharing a lawyer with Genesi ( the rival company in this tiny space ) but I had no idea that they had employed him too. If true, thats a bit interesting.

Finally, what do company/employee disputes and company/landlord disputes have the hell to do with the topic?

Jeez.
by DruggedBunny on Mon 21st Jul 2003 09:27 UTC

LOL @ the Jay Miner troll! Utterly clueless!

As far as shutting down your machine part way through working on a project and having it restart where you left off, try the Hibernate option in Windows if your hardware supports it...

OP
by Donald Milne on Mon 21st Jul 2003 10:38 UTC

There's one difference between Hibernate and orthogonal persistance in an OS, one requires you to do something, the other doesn't. For failover, one is useless, the other highly useful.

And as for how the system boots, a startup menu (with a timed out default) could easily give you the options of 'as I was' or 'start afresh'.

Orthogonal persistance at the OS level gives you more freedom, not less.

This isn't an attempt to resurrect "the Amiga". It's about bringing AmigaOS to modern hardware.

AmigaOS fills a niche for a desktop operating system that is small, fast, responsive, needs few resources, is easy to use. You know where everything is and what it does. You feel like you're in control of the machine, not the other way round.

At home I use MorphOS on a 600Mhz G3 and it is magnitudes faster and more responsive than either my G4 1Ghz iMac running OS X or my work PC (2.2Ghz Athlon/1GB RAM) running Win2k. Applications load in a split second, Windows open instantly, it boots in ~6 seconds from warm or 15-20 seconds from cold. And, for me as a programmer, its a lot of fun to work on.

In my time I have used nearly every Desktop OS out there (BeOS, Mac OS 8/9, Mac OS X, Linux, Win 3.1/95/98/2k/ME/XP, OS/2 Warp) and nothing comes close to AmigaOS/MorphOS in these respects.

If Amiga then Don't moderate down!
by Gwapster on Mon 21st Jul 2003 13:44 UTC

Could whomever is responsible (Bouma?) please quit moderating down stuff that is most entertainable to read _and_ is on-topic.

The legal affairs of Amiga inc. and it's CEO are interesting reading material and this board is as good a place to discuss them as any other.

I mean, compare this to, eg. "Orthogonal Persistence", now THAT is off-topic.

do some basic research
by Dave on Mon 21st Jul 2003 14:32 UTC

From the Q+A linked, which is the topic:

"The 64 bit AmigaOS implementation has always been a target, since we will be able to implement orthogonal persistence much more easily than on a 32 bit platform. There are still a lot of issues to sort out first however."

The legal affairs and its CEO has nothing to do with the topic, if you want to discuss them, for the n-zillionth time, then why don't you check out these message boards which are suited for general Amiga discussions:

http://www.amigaworld.net
http://www.amiga.org
http://www.ann.lu
http://www.moobunny.org



v Re: Dave
by Tigger on Mon 21st Jul 2003 17:14 UTC
v Financial/legal are on topic
by Anonymous on Mon 21st Jul 2003 18:01 UTC