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Is it adesktop product? A server product?
How is it different from a Apple computer or a normal X86 one? Does it run Windows too?
Finally, where can I get one?
Please start here:
Check this out. These screenshots look awesome.
Why don't we have something like this on the x86 platform natively?
With the number of OS that PegaSOS supported, it seems like a very good platform to build an ultimate desktop
I wonder if Virtual PC will be able to run under MOL (mac on linux) then running Windows software would be possible.
Can anyone confirm this ?
How much is the price of this thing?
How is it possible that the screenshots look so nice, when other operating systems have hundreds, possibly thousands of people working on the GUI and it does not look comparable?
I just wanted to clarify two things :
Darwin is not a Linux OS, instead it is of the *BSD filiation, and thus more at home on a *BSD support page @pegasosppc.com.
Better YellowDog support, well, it just need an installer, and thus someone willing to do the job. I don't think this will happen enxtly, but the image installer guys are preparing yellow dog isos also, or so it seem. Anyway, what do you want yellow dog if you have Debian ?
And then to Zamorins : VirtualPC has been bought by microsoft, if i remember well, and anyway, there are native x86 emulator available to linux, among them you can find bochs : http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
Sven Luther (No email provided, to avoid spamage, but my username is svenluther and the servername is fr.genesi.lu naturally).
>Darwin is not a Linux OS
Don't say. ;D
I know that Darwin is a BSD, I report on it, remember? But I am of the opinion that housing a *modified* Darwin as the default OS on Pegasos, is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together. In other words, build up on what Apple gives you and make a decent and *unique* product out of it (with modified GUIs etc for differentiantion), instead of doing yet-another-linux-based-product.
>Anyway, what do you want yellow dog if you have Debian ?
I want a more modern Linux than the KDE 2.x and Gnome 1.4 that Debian offers on my Pegasos today. YDL is Red Hat-based, and Red Hat is the "standard" on Linux market. Personally, I am a Slackware user when I have the hots to use Linux (not very often), but between Debian and Red Hat, I personally prefer the ease of use of Red Hat. And with YUM and apt-get on YDL, it ain't bad.
But personally, I would prefer a modified and cared-up Darwin, above all for Pegasos because that would be unique enough. To create a new platform and stay competitive, you need to innovate and you need to offer unique capabilities. A modified Darwin can give you that, because there are no big distros or any company building up upon Darwin today (except Apple of course, which is not the same kind of competition you are cared for)
>is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together
I need to explain this. I am not saying that Darwin is actually better than Linux on all levels, it probably is not. However, what matters in the OS market is innvovation and differentation. Darwin can give you that. Linux can't, because every 10-year old can install it on his grandpa's Pentium 166 he found locked in the loft. Linux is good to be there as the second choice on the Pegasos Platform, and MorphOS the third choice (as much as I love alternative OSes, MorphOS is just not up to the task to compete with the monster OSes that are far along the way in many respects).
This is why I try to push for Darwin. Because you have a chance here. Get the OS, build upon it, *modify* Gnome or KDE to be unique on your platform with extra goodies not found on Linux (e.g. OpenDarwin/Fink ports, new GUI etc) and then I am sure you will raise some eyebrowses in the market. You will have a solid OS that is customized the way you want to, plus it would be solid enough to compete with Linux. MorphOS just doesn't count in the *market*, it is a toy. It is a cool/geek OS, amiga lovers will like it, but it stops just right there. If you want to make it as "Pegasos, the Platform", you need to invest elsewhere, and while Linux is a great investment, it doesn't give you differentiation. Darwin does.
But I am of the opinion that housing a *modified* Darwin as the default OS on Pegasos, is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together. In other words, build up on what Apple gives you and make a decent and *unique* product out of it (with modified GUIs etc for differentiantion), instead of doing yet-another-linux-based-product.
You've probably got a point there, since Darwin is optimized for the PPC platform, anyway.
I wonder, though, whether that's currently a viable option economicly. You have to consider, they'd have to develop their own desktop environment for it, and then provide developers with some incentive to port to it. And they've likely already made a substantial investment in developing MorphOS. For a small company they'd be spreading themselves kind of thin.
Linux may not be the best OS for this platform, but it does have the advantage of a substantial application base out of the box.
I agree, though, a Darwin based environment would be way cool.
Cooler still would be if they could talk Apple into granting them a license for OS X. But I suppose that's an even a farther fetched idea.
> You have to consider, they'd have to develop their own desktop environment for it
No, nobody says to go clean-slate and redo everything. That would be madness. What I am saying, is to modify the looks, gnome-panel, nautilus and context menus etc. of Gnome (or the equivelants of KDE) and then create a product that is *different enough*, and yet based and *still compatible* with Gnome/KDE. Think more of what Ximian does for Gnome, but just one step further. API compatibility should be retained, otherwise you lose easy porting of apps.
> and then provide developers with some incentive to port to it.
API and source compatibility should be retained no matter what. It is important to get apps easily.
I agree that having Darwin on it would be excellent. Although I'd wager that maintaining Linux on it will be easier than Darwin, since it has a larger base of coders than Darwin (and I'm only talking PPC).
Apple maintains Darwin. That's enough bunch of coders. Plus, Darwin is more optimized for the PPC platform than Linux is.
Both Linux and Darwin are POSIX, so I don't see the difficulty of porting let's say, gnome or kde, to either of those. The difficulty would be the same.
Moreover, Darwin uses a license that won't force Genesi to open source everything if they don't want to. In fact, if Genesi wants to retain this differentation, they could do it easily than with Linux. Depends what Genesi feels like doing.
It's not actually about the OS itself, but the hardware drivers. Someone has to maintain the drivers to allow it to run on the Pegasos, and I don't see Apple doing that. Sure Pegasos could do that, but I'm not about to demand it, I think it would be better for the open source community to take care of it. If I knew how to code on that level I'd love to do it, but how many others would? Unfortunatly my coding skills don't go much beyond "hello world" in C, C++ and ObjectC.
>Someone has to maintain the drivers to allow it to run on the Pegasos, and I don't see Apple doing that.
Well, in this hypothetical scenario we discuss here today, Genesi just keeps doing what they do with MorphOS: develop and maintain. The same they would have to do about Darwin. I am not talking about Genesi becoming a distributor a-la Linux, I am talking about doing some real engineering. Without the right amount of engineering and support, no Platfrom can survive. Apple does the same, they have a platform, and they develop and maintain it. They live the Linux maintainance to others, but they have a main OS product that they put all care in: MacOSX. Same should be for Genesi: Darwin (or whatever marketing OS name Genesi will come up with for differentiation sake).
Nobody says that it is easy, or that all work should be done by the community. To support a whole platform you need the right kind of guts. And engineers.
Are you suggesting that they drop MorphOS, then? Or continue and support both? That would be quite an achievement for a small company to be supporting 2 OSes. If they did get Darwin running on it, I think that would definately put more of a differentiation in their product.
>Are you suggesting that they drop MorphOS, then?
Open source it via a strict license (e.g. don't allow a port to other platforms) and let the MorphOS/Amiga community have a play with it and Genesi to gather back the fixed goodies and package it as a "distributor". MorphOS does not hold significant value for the Pegasos Platform (or any other platform), because the OS is still alpha quality and it can't do as much as a Unix can. It is not a mature OS, I have it locking on me every 15 minutes here. I can't possibly put the fate of a whole business on this OS, no matter if I am a geek or not. Business is business.
MorphOS is a great geek OS. So, let the geek play with it. And let Genesi do some good engineering on Darwin, maintain and develop Darwin as the OS of choise for the platform, and be just a distributor for Linux and MorphOS.
OK, You've got me convinced. I wish I could afford to purchase one.
Well, i don't agree, you say Darwin, but in reality you think Mac OS X. And Darwin without the graphical frontend stuff is not that much different than linux on the graphical side.
And adding a nice differentiating GUI on top of Darwin is a lot of work, much more than we want to invest, and work that would be better invested in MorphOS, which is what you are calling for. Furthermore, if you go the MacOS X clone route you are thinking, you would soon have a mega lawsuite, and all the Apple legal department on your back.
And what many people search, is the official linux support, and Debian, together with its 8000+ packages is a good choice for that. Sure you think Redhat is the default, but this is only because you hear the marketting gimmicks of them, and that's it. Debian is much superior and of better quality. Sure the current Debian/Woody is quite old (frowen in spring 2002, released in july) but the new upcoming Debian/Sarge is much more advanced and modern, and should feature X 4.3.0 as well as Gnome 2.4, OpenOffice 1.1, and other such stuff (don't know about KDE, i am no KDE guy). Release is scheduled for december, but we will probably slip a bit, and it will support the pegasos (I and II) out of the box. Also the PegXLin stuff is an image of a working debian/sarge installation, so you could have this already. Furthermore, Debian has just been elected as prefered distribution by Linux Journal :
And it is ironic that you mention apt-get as a thing for Yellow Dog, since it is a debian tool, which i have been using since 99 or so.
Mmm, i will stop and start another post. OSnews urgently needs a character counter to ease post writing.
At least this is what I would do if I was the creator of a PPC-based platform. Other OSes (openbeos, newos etc) don't matter as much at this early point. Genesi needs to have a good foot in the market with a strong and _well-supported_ OS product and THEN ask for such OS ports to enrich its platform. Genesi needs to focus more on *the* OS that can drive their hardware sales, instead of spending energy and money on small OSes that don't matter in the business.
This is what I would suggest as a business plan for the platform:
1. Darwin-based modified OS is the base of the Platform. Full support, full development, focus and engineering.
2. Work with external people --the way it works now-- to port YDL, MDK, SuSE, Debian and Gentoo to Pegasos. YDL and Debian should be the most important ones and should get the most attention and help. Linux is everywhere these days and it should be pursued as the No1 alternative to #1 Darwin main product. Genesi should be a supporter for Linux in the technical level and offer Services (for a fee of course) to companies who wish to run on Linux instead of Darwin on their Pegasos.
3. Open Source MorphOS under a strict license. Let MorphOS be the "cherry of the cake" in the Platform, the cute little OS that could, the geek toy that you can only find in the Pegasos Platform. Genesi should only be a packager/distributor for it, not a developer.
4. FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. Help them make the port to the Pegasos Platform, but don't base any products upon it. Evaluate them every 6 months to see if you can or should base any Services or products upon these ports.
5. OpenBeOS, NewOS, Syllable, SkyOS etc. They don't matter for your business, stop spending energy on them. If they want to port by themselves, help them on the technical level, but don't spend too much energy on them. They can't bring money to the company. They are just fun.
That's my friendly opinion...
>And adding a nice differentiating GUI on top of Darwin is a lot of work, much more than we want to invest, and work that would be better invested in MorphOS, which is what you are calling for.
Excuse me, but modifying Gnome is much less work than fixing MorphOS. MorphOS is an "immature" OS in terms of stability and features. Darwin is not. Linux is not. FreeBSD is not.
You need 10x times more work to invest on MorphOS than what you would need for a modified Darwin product which is pretty much working well, today.
>Furthermore, if you go the MacOS X clone route you are thinking,
No, I am not thinking of cloning Mac OS X. I never even mentioned something like it.
I am thinking of modifying Gnome or KDE (my personal option would be Gnome because of its "less is more" philosophy) to look and feel unique. And unique, does not mean "mac os x".
>you would soon have a mega lawsuite, and all the Apple legal department on your back.
Apple has no grounds to sue you over Darwin. Darwin is open source. The stuff on top of it, is just Gnome and X. Also open source and not in Apple's domain.
I think you have mixed up a few things...
open source it with a strict licensing forbiding postings ? Well Eugenia, it seems that you have no idea what open source (or free software) is all about. With something like that, you will receive a very cold if not frigid response from the open source comunity.
Also, you speak about darwin and the hardware drivers, i think that the linux comunity has much more chances to get good quality and numerous drivers than apple is, after all, there is no way apple, or even microsoft can mach the sheer amount of developer linux can muster. Also, with the current scheme, the only benefit would be in graphic drivers, and these are part of quartz, and the layers of Mac OS X that Apple does not release as open source, so ...
Also, you want to invest thousands of man/hours of work to port Gnome/KDE/Whatever to Darwin, and to obtain what in the end ? It will be undistinguishable from any other Linux desktop stuff, and since you are going against the flow of things, cost you much more in investement than the benefit you would get of it. Far more interesting would be a Gnome Theme with MorphOS like Graphic quality, distributed exclusively with the pegasos motherboards for example. That is all the differentiation you will see anyway, and much cheaper to do for more benefit.
And again, Linux, and especially Debian among them, is a good recognized value (even Progeny, which employs many debian developers, didn't continue providing their distrib, since their customer where asking for debian), and opens other potential markets to the Pegasos, like the server community (and the pegasos II would be a good product for there) and other such.
Ok i hope it is not too long.
First a minor issue with the autonomy of Darwin: Apple seems to update darwin with every few OSX updates. Can the wider community steer darwin to their own needs like they could with a linux distro? (i.e. the linux as kernel + distro vs. *BSD platform notion). Is forking of darwin permitted by Apple's license, if the need arose?
One would assume that Darwin has better hardware support for PPC than Linux, due to Apple's influence.
Someone might comment whether all the important drivers are in darwin such as airport extreme - or only with OSX. As I understand 802.11g isn't available for linux for the most popular chipset since it's manufacturer won't open up the specs.
I agree with Eugenia that darwin has potential but viability who knows. Perhaps Pegasos providing resources is just what fink/darwinports/gentoo alliance needs.
Licensing issues aside, the gnustep project might be a valueable ally, providing tools that work equally well under Peg-Darwin (gnustep) and OSX (Cocoa). My understanding of the opendarwin team, e.g. Jordan, is that they're keen innovate in providing a great OS foundation but reluctant to disclose anything in the 'closed' part. Releasing things under a compatible license might benefit Apple, even.
<< Begin Java troll. >>
Though, if I had to run another OS on a PPC, for the moment I'd choose Linux. Why? Simple reason, IBM. If I wanted to run Java; use their JVM. Potentially other enterprise software such as DB2, Websphere etc could run on Pegasos Linux. This differentiates Linux from a hobby OS.
Don't count on Sun/IBM/Apple releasing Java for Darwin.
One problem with Darwin though, is that XFree86 uses the Darwin Framebuffer for the video, it does not use the native XFree86 drivers, therefore Pegasos or whoever would have to release video card drivers for Darwin to get any decent color and resolution.
> Excuse me, but modifying Gnome is much less work than fixing MorphOS. MorphOS is an "immature" OS in terms of stability and features. Darwin is not. Linux is not. FreeBSD is not.
MorphOS is the hearth of Pegasos, anything else will only be a second OS. And it is me as the Linux guy at genesi who says it.
That said, i was comparing the cost of developing linux to the one to develop Darwin, nothing else.
> No, I am not thinking of cloning Mac OS X. I never even mentioned something like it.
But it is the secret desire behind your propositions, many other have this same thinking, and it is easy to detect it.
Linux is a proven value, worldwide known for its stability.
And if you plan on putting Gnome on Darwin, you could as well put it on top of Linux or on top of Solaris or HPUX for that matter.
> Apple has no grounds to sue you over Darwin. Darwin is open source. The stuff on top of it, is just Gnome and X. Also open source and not in Apple's domain.
Apple has sued for similar themes and other such flimsy things in the past, you can bet they would sue for anything meaningfull you do on top of Darwin, apart from simply running an X server and some common desktop environment which will be more work to support anyway.
BTW, the only reason Apple choose BSD over Linux, apart from the Next heritage, is the BSD licence which gives them all the rights without limitation compared to the linux GPL.
The OpenBSD distro for the Pegasos II will be ready for the 15 October release too. We should have that support site ready then too. Here it is: http://odc.pegasosppc.com
Sven, has pretty much covered the Linux vs. Darwin issues with you and while we do have two OpenDarwin folks ready to go forward with the port to the Pegasos (we need to get them machines for the next steps), we confess we do not know enough about what is happening in that community/environment to make a full and reasonable call on the whole issue.
As for Darwin as way to excite Mac users, we thought it more advantageous to take a Knoppix-like approach with a CD bootable MorphOS for Apple Computer Users. It is a bit cheaper for us and for the user less hassle. Without reconfiguring their hard drives they could take a test ride. We could also take the "Trojan Horse" approach and do this with MorphOS hidden under a CD bootable application/game (again on MorphOS) that then leads them to an online world, etc.
We should actually have the online game support site up next week too...:-) We started that whole discussion online some time ago and today it has been turned into a 16,000 word design document and a project on its way to a bright future. The discussion starts here:
We are open to just about any idea fused to diligent activity and we are willing to provide support, including a Pegasos to talented folks that can assist us in our pusuit of success for the platform. Thanks for the discussion and ideas.
>With something like that, you will receive a very cold if not frigid response from the open source comunity.
But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community".
> Also, you speak about darwin and the hardware drivers, i think that the linux comunity has much more chances to get good quality and numerous drivers than apple is
Are you telling me that Apple has a driver problem? You forget what a Platform is. YOU control the platform, the way Apple does its own. If Darwin can't have "enough drivers", what makes you think that MorphOS can???
> with the current scheme, the only benefit would be in graphic drivers, and these are part of quartz
Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach.
>Also, you want to invest thousands of man/hours of work to port Gnome/KDE/Whatever to Darwin
>It will be undistinguishable from any other Linux desktop stuff
EXACTLY why I said that you need INNOVATION and DIFFERENTIATION. This is where your engineering will go, NOT in trying to port KDE and Gnome. These are already ported!
> Far more interesting would be a Gnome Theme with MorphOS like Graphic quality, distributed exclusively with the pegasos motherboards for example
And so your Darwin would be. Why an non-Amiga person would like to purchase Pegasos and work with the crashing and under-featured MorphOS? I don't get it, I am sorry. I am talking business here and you are talking geek fan talk. Or are your customer target JUST ex-Amiga users? Because in this case, I do back you up. But if you are talking about a new Platform here, with NEW customers other than the 1000 Amiga users left in the planet, then you need a tank OS, not a rifle.
>That is all the differentiation you will see anyway, and much cheaper to do for more benefit.
Benefit? For whom?
>And again, Linux, and especially Debian among them, is a good recognized value
Did I say otherwise? In my proposed business plan above, Linux is the #2 product for Genesi, selling what you can sell with Linux: services.
Ok, I am off to bed now, it is 1:20 AM here. Bye.
> But it is the secret desire behind your propositions, many other have this same thinking, and it is easy to detect it.
I am sorry, but you know me very little. I have run more than 30 OSes in my life and countless distros. I strive for INNOVATION and uniqueness, not copying Apple's MacOSX. You misundestood me.
Ok, a last post before i go back to serious work )
> Genesi needs to focus more on *the* OS that can drive their hardware sales, instead of spending energy and money on small OSes that don't matter in the business.
Well, you think that Darwin, which is after all as much of a geeky toy OS as MorphOS is at this time, even lagging a bit in dektop support, will be able to drive hardware sales. This is not the truth, but Linux can drive hardware sales, even hardware sales for people who have never heard of apple, amiga, darwin, etc. before. There is great momentus behind linux right now, and this is what will driver hardware sales.
And by going with Debian, you immediately gain the benefit of the 800+ debian developers working for you )
BTW, i hope you don't take it badly, i am no native english speaker, and altough my written english is quite good, i may not grasp certain languages subtleties, so just to be sure, no offense intented.
>As for Darwin as way to excite Mac users
No, the incentive is to actually excite x86 users with the unique Darwin (that's for PC users who can't afford Macs or can't install Darwin on x86 (it is a b*tch to install it on x86)), not Mac users. It works the other way around.
And now, _really_ going to bed.
> But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community".
You are wrong, if you call open source something which is not, like you are doing, then you will have the open source folk on you, which is something that have happened in the past (for the QPL, for Apple, etc.). Don't make the mistake of thinking the open source community is not attentive to this, they are very much attentive and over sensible to it, and rightly so, what can be seen with the whole SCO show.
OK, Eugenia, we will chew on all of that, but MorphOS is *our* work in progress. With the PowerPC logo for the Pegasos and the "Ready for IBM Technology" logo for MorphOS just awarded this past week -- see http://www.morphos-news.de/ for details -- we will continue to improve the OS as we head toward more mobility and a much smaller Pegasos in the next release (it can be handheld, but it can plug into a television or a monitor on a desktop too). In the meanwhile, we *will* support nearly any productive effort that does advance the platform. Our only risk: trying to do too much and not staying focused on the need to stay in business while all these pots cook away. For now, we are in the business of being the computer for the "geek" market. We need to satisfy them first, because *we think* it will be this OS smorgasbord and their respective development communities that take the Pegasos and Genesi to the next level. :-)
> Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach.
Well, sure, go and try to run a Radeon 9600 on Linux/ppc. There are no drivers, even free ones, that support 3D. All the interesting stuff is in the ATI proprietary drivers, or in the MACOS X drivers. As a XFree86 developer in my spare time, i am well placed to know the reality of this. There is much more chance that a MorphOS driver would be available, than a Darwin drivers, and apparently, as someone says here, X is not even accelerated on Darwin.
As for the rest, you accuse me to have a MorphOS fan talk, while i am not even running MorphOS on my pegasos currently (well only a textmode console right now, enough to do kernel compilation). Our main difference is that i place Linux above everything else in your master plan, and morphos in the second place. Let's agree to disagree on that, and retake this discussion again in three month from now. And now, back to serious work.
> I am sorry, but you know me very little. I have run more than 30 OSes in my life and countless distros. I strive for INNOVATION and uniqueness, not copying Apple's MacOSX. You misundestood me.
Well your subconcious hidden desire then ))
...we may be 5000 miles away from Sven now, but we are right next to him here. Linux IS changing the world and the Pegasos will ride that wave into the hands of less sophisticated users (folks not reading this thread) with THIS release of the Pegasos. There are major shifts occuring in Europe (and elsewhere) away from anything Microsoft. The opportunity is now for the alternative that can allow people to do what they need to do, but not require a regular check to Redmond.
One,when will these systems be ready for shipping,and how will they compete price-wise to Apple computers
Secondly,I'm not sure how this could be done,but it sure as hell would be nice to see Yellowtab's Zeta-BeOS running on this platform,apparently the MorphOS folks have a thorough understanding of the newer PPC architecture to build an OS for it and If Yellowtab has any source code for BeOS as they imply, this seems possible ,in my mind at least.
I think I could be very happy running MorphOS and BeOS on the same platform
> > Excuse me, but modifying Gnome is much less work than
> > fixing MorphOS. MorphOS is an "immature" OS in terms of
> > stability and features. Darwin is not. Linux is not.
> > FreeBSD is not.
> MorphOS is the hearth of Pegasos, anything else will only
> be a second OS. And it is me as the Linux guy at genesi
> who says it.
I do agree with Sven here. MorphOS is definately the heart of Pegasos and dropping it in favor for GNOME for example is the most wrong idea I've ever heard. MorphOS is a good Kernel+Desktop concept in the means of old AmigaOS, with the apps not necessarily tied to 70 libraries like GNOME does (with partially wrapper libraries only to make it conform for other operating systems). Not to mention that MorphOS as Kernel+Desktop solution is far superior to GNOME as Desktop itself IN ANY AREA.
- This starts from being able to control Hardware from the Desktop (the same thing that GNOME is trying to achieve with putting yet another HAL ontop of the Linux Kernel) to have it crossplattform compliant. E.g. a HAL ontop of the Kernel which already has its own HAL (between Hardware and Kernel) to abstract the information. MorphOS doesn't have this limitation.
- Then the limitations with XFree86 and the FreakDesktop specifications, the fork of X11 - A clear sign that there is something wrong otherwise this approach hasn't been initiated. MorphOS doesn't have this limitation either. If there wasn't KDE, GNOME and the interests of Red Hat for example then FreakDesktop was nothing else than a wish by some wannabe.
- Then the ideas like Storage and replacing Init with Python scripts and the excuse that the user want to boot into X11 directly rather than dealing with the init sequences. Another sign of there is something wrong with Linux. Either GNOME and KDE reached a point where there is no way to get any further and make yet another MacOSX out of it. MorphOS on the otherhand doesn't lack this due to a 20 years old concept of former AmigaOS which has now been adopted by MorphOS. The open source Desktop solutions add more and more libraries, more and more complexity, more and more technology while the real usability totally lacks behind - Also something only a serious person can understand.
- Ye good 'olde GConf again. Wow how much did I criticise that shit in the public. While I do see some benefits and am using that stuff myself for my own GNOME programms. I still recall where all these people crawled out of their dark holes defending it as the ultimate solution. I head it's Windows Registry done right and things like that. If it was SOOO right then someone needs to explain why there is a big discussion on desktop developer list to have this thing changed again. Remove of XML (due to speed), change of concept and the biggest problem howto imigrate old settings to new due to drastical changes. Again a concept that has been half thought through and yet changed again - Sure the same people will find yet another excuse for this too. MorphOS doesn't have these issue due to good configuration system in Tooltypes or in S: or ENV: it was 20 years good and will be for the next 20 years. And WE Amigans never really liked the Windows Registry that may also explain my permanent bashing of this.
- GNOME is a mixture of many languages, technically using these languages are a big benefit. You can sell this software as ready for all languages. On the otherhand it adds a lot of complexity and dependency to the core. A lot of libraries dependency under the hood which only affects negatively on the resulting Desktop afterwards. What do we have now C, C++, Perl, Python, JAVA, C# Mono and maybe even more. KDE doesn't lack this their entire Desktop is written in C++ and MorphOS is a mixture of C (and maybe 1-2% Assembly for some lowercore stuff). The benefits having a Kernel+Desktop solution written in one language is no core dependency and complexity or library requirement. I think that under heavy system process that MorphOS performs better than GNOME with all the libraries and language dependency. E.g. when you run Python apps then 5% of CPU is wasted for Pyhton while 0.5% is used by the app. If it wouldn't require Python then it wouldn't waste that resource. These are fictive values only to give an idea. Or when using a C++ programm then you need C++ bindings for GNOME e.g. using libraries with C++ methodes and interface which again wrap around the standard libs. There is a bridge between app and direct function. Which means waste of resources, loading times and and and.
Putting GNOME in the center of everything is plain wrong. GNOME is definately NOT the best Desktop solution existing but it is somehow declared like this in the Linux community by zealots and those who made a religion out of it.
Even QNX, BeOS or may it MacOSX are far better solutions because they got thought up from Kernel to Desktop rather than having the Kernel go its own direction, the Desktop its own direction. Having a different philosophy around Linux for 12-15 years now (?) and now have a bunch of selfdeclared Bosses figure out that something drastical must change - Sounds like conspiracy or paranoia ? No it sounds like someone with a shitload experience.
Technically even KDE hit GNOME in all categories on length - but explaining this here would also require people to understand this. Yes I know KDE is slow, it looks ugly and hey the QT license still sucks... No these excuses are badly wrong and most of the people open know the true reasons.
I as technical skilled person and developer see the clear difference between nice Icons (GNOME) vs. nice written (physical code) Desktop OS - to get deeper into this will also require people to understand this and not prayers.
I have the luck to know both sides as former developer on Amiga and someone who can easily say in the public to knew every Address, every CustomRegister, every CPU mnemonic from opcode and as someone who spent the last few years on GNOME - which I not limit to looking at fance Icons. Where I excesively studied the libraries, the API, where I contributed to many modules and my own applications.
Well I don't want to make things sound more worse than they really are but we shouldn't make GNOME be more in the public than it really is. It has a long way to go. Mistakes have been made, mistakes have been fixed and new mistakes are on their way. I can't tell what the future will bring, that's why it still keeps me excited to follow it (while the community has changed drastically as well. People with strange EGO's trying to control and direct GNOME .. but hey let's not get into this).
I think while open source has it's benefits it on the otherhand has it's disadvantages as well. A lot of selfdeclared Bosses, a lot of emotions, religion, zealots. Without companies backing some 'interesting projects' with their own money then GNOME or KDE wouldn't been what it is today. Same may be valid for MorphOS (no doubt) but I like the idea having a little team of 20 developers around who exactly KNOW what they want and program it that way rather than having 200 people contributing to it in their spare time who all have a different opinion and then may get demotivated because their work isn't honoured the same way than others or who are forced to take seat in a position by others who contributed far less to the same project but are in the fortunate to have a golden chair beyond their arse.
I think that MorphOS, QNX and Linux have a good chance on the Pegasos plattform. The 'geek' plattform. This doesn't mean that MorphOS is a bad plattform. It does have a long way to go, it does require a lot of stuff to make it become more attractive. But in the past months that I really wasted all my time into their community I must admit that I saw Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco achieved MORE than what their competition and brandowner AmigaINC was able to NOT do in 10 years.
Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free".
She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers.
Plus Darwin is a very modular kernel, I do not know what sound card Genesi use in Pegasos. But if there is a linux driver you can easily modify it to work well with the modular Darwin kernel.
Just a question can you provide a link to the genesi website showing us the target market of Pegasos together with MorphOS.
Apple has sued for similar themes and other such flimsy things in the past, you can bet they would sue for anything meaningfull you do on top of Darwin, apart from simply running an X server and some common desktop environment which will be more work to support anyway.
So why don't they sue for the MorphOS GUI, don't tell me that it can be changed, I already know that. So can GNOME.
But I should say I think MorphOS would probably have a more responsive UI than GNOME+Xfree+Darwin.
Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on providing drivers for peripherals.
Is that so hard.
> Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would
> have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the
> kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI
> and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on
> providing drivers for peripherals.
Because you don't understand MorphOS's philosophy and concept.
I can't understand how you are thinking, what would the reason be to use darwin? only to be special? what's so good about that?
macos x already IS darwin based and has a special gui, do the world need a macos x wannabe but just with less features? I don't think so.
You are also talking about modifying kde and gnome on darwin to ones special likeing, why not just modify them for linux in that case since atleast then you would be able to run regular linux apps. Darwin would only screw things up, i don't think it's such a great kernel anyway.
Btw, if someone feel an urge for a special unix why not just use QNX then it's ported?
Because you don't understand MorphOS's philosophy and concept.
Please enlighten me.
> Please enlighten me.
First of all excuse for not having mentioned my nick. I hit submit without verifying that.
Well I don't know whether you know the AmigaOS from former times. Maybe you had one and played some games on it. MorphOS from idea is quite similar to what the AmigaOS was in former times. MorphOS is not yet another Windowmanager ontop of a Unixish Kernel. E.g. boot Darwin, load X11 (or framebuffer) and then put some Amiga look stuff ontop of it (or alternative run GNOME on it). This would entirely dump the idea of what Amiga was and I recommend you to read what MorphOS is from the PegasosPPC page:
Please click and read the 'MorphOS in detail' PDF file. The entire concepts of AmigaOS are different e.g. managing of devices, managing of libraries, mimetypes, settings etc. the entire look and feel, the core, the philosophy and so on. If we use yet another Unixish core then it wouldn't make much difference using Linux or something similar at the end.
> She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers.
Well, as someone who has written XFree86 driver code, ans a member of the XFree86 project, i understand perfectly the issues at work here.
Fact is, XFree86 provides good 2D accelerated drivers, but not 3D drivers, nor good Video (as in mpeg and such) drivers, at least for ATI.
For ATI, the Video drivers are provided by the Gatos project, which don't has (yet ?) information on the newer models, and for 3D Drivers, it is provided by the DRI project, which uses a linux kernel module to enable the dma engine and some other stuff. I don't think this kernel module has been ported to Darwin yet.
Furthermore, the DRI currently hasn't information about the newer ATI cards (Radeon 9500 and up) and thus there is no accelerated 3D driver for them. ATI provide their proprietary 3D drivers, but these are right now only built for x86. I believe that Genesi might be able to convince them to build powerpc versions (a minority of a minority), but i seriously doubt that they would go to the length to build darwin versions (a minority of a minority of a minority), and you cannot even rely on Apple stuff, since Apple does not provide these for Darwin, and since the XFree86 driver and Apple driver use two different code bases. And graphic card vendors usually only consider plateforms with 100 000+ installed base as the minimum needed to attract their attention.
So, is there something still you think i am missing, or is my position clarified.
"Though, if I had to run another OS on a PPC, for the moment I'd choose Linux. Why? Simple reason, IBM. If I wanted to run Java; use their JVM. Potentially other enterprise software such as DB2, Websphere etc could run on Pegasos Linux. This differentiates Linux from a hobby OS.
Don't count on Sun/IBM/Apple releasing Java for Darwin."
Java is beeing ported to the MorphOS as we speach.
Please hack some patches for MacOS X which make it run on the Pegasos =D
"And if you plan on putting Gnome on Darwin, you could as well put it on top of Linux or on top of Solaris or HPUX for that matter."
Solaris for PPC would be cool, but I doubt we'll see it. Nice that they changed their opinions and keeped on developing it for the x86 thought.
"Are you telling me that Apple has a driver problem? You forget what a Platform is. YOU control the platform, the way Apple does its own. If Darwin can't have "enough drivers", what makes you think that MorphOS can???"
Apple doesn't need to support many gfx adapters since they just bundle geforce4 and ati radeon with their hardware, and that's it.
MorphOS got a better change to get decent drivers and programs than various open source oses simply because it's an propietary os. If you are doing stuff like that for an open source os you give away your specs, ip and company "secrets" away to anyone, and some companies doesn't want to do that so they feel much more secure in the case of a closed source os.
"Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach."
You have no idea what you are talking about, to begin with the drivers might actually be part of quartz and not the darwin kernel, and darwin can never "run on xfree" since xfree is the toll which makes the graphical magic on top of whatever kernel you are using. Kde and Gnome doesn't make drivers, they are desktop environments based on the toolkits QT and GTK which are there to make it easier for developers to make a consistant look and easier to code graphical applications.
"EXACTLY why I said that you need INNOVATION and DIFFERENTIATION. This is where your engineering will go, NOT in trying to port KDE and Gnome. These are already ported!"
They DO engineering, a motherboard and an os to begin with, makeing a theme for gnome isn't engineering.
"And so your Darwin would be. Why an non-Amiga person would like to purchase Pegasos and work with the crashing and under-featured MorphOS? I don't get it, I am sorry."
Why would they use Darwin without apps even if it had gnome then they could use linux and get more software support? and as sven said just add a theme for gnome in that case.
"No, the incentive is to actually excite x86 users with the unique Darwin (that's for PC users who can't afford Macs or can't install Darwin on x86 (it is a b*tch to install it on x86)), not Mac users. It works the other way around."
Why on earth would you run darwin on x86? The cool thing is macos x, not the weird kernel mixture.
I agree with you at 110% on Zeta for Pegasos, that would be awesome, the question is if Yellowtab is intrested, they should be since you got a much better chance to succed with an alternative os on the PPC platform than on x86 simply because 99.5% of the x86 people will end up using windows in the end anyway. It doesn't matter which os is available and which one they have installed on their machines, sooner or later they need an application which requires windows and that's the things which forces them all back to it all the time.
On PPC on the other side there is no Windows, and all other oses got a decent chance.
Regarding shipping the Pegasos2 is supposed to start shipping at the 15 October, for a price of 299 euro together with a 600MHz G3 or 499 euro with a 1GHz G4, this includes MorphOS and the superbundle.
Owners of the Pegasos1 are supposed to be able to upgrade to the peg2 for a price of 200 euro, and their old Pegasos1 boards will be available for developers and others which just want a simple test ride for only 99 euro.
For some reason KDE always seems so much better then gnome no matter who talks, less layers, less languages, easier apis and so on. Would be intresting to hear why you are codeing for gnome instead thought, but we can take that personally =)
I also belive that QNX Photon as gui on top of neutrino must be way more effecient than some program on top of 3-4 layers which in their turn is on top of gtk which is on top of 1-2 layers more on top of xfree86 on top of linux.
"She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers. "
Please do understand that the XFree86 drivers generally SUCK, that's why people beg for nvidia and ati to release drivers of their own.
"So why don't they sue for the MorphOS GUI, don't tell me that it can be changed, I already know that. So can GNOME."
The MorphOS gui is supposed to look like a fresh version of AmigaOS, not MacOS. Only think it has in common with MacOSX is the bar, but many had a startmenu before MacOSX so i wish them good luck on that topic.
"Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on providing drivers for peripherals."
They already have the Quark kernel which is modern enough, they have made an A-box for it so you can run Amiga applications, and much other work the get MorphOS, why on earth would they change that to some weird open-source kernel on which they can't decide there they would like to go? Do you think it would have been possible to make it easy to run amiga systemfriendly programs on the darwin kernel? I think not. You are all so owned by the gnu zealots and hype.
I simply can't understand why everyone's picking on Zeta and YellowTab. What is wrong with them?
Zeta looks like the best BeOS you can get at the moment. OBOS and BlueOS are still in the experimental state, R5 is outdated, DevEd and Max are build on R5 PE and therefore also build on outdated code (e.g. NetServer). Dano is illegal and unstable. According to the reviews, Zeta provides a stable Dano base including BONE and GobeProductive as well as support for modern hardware. What's wrong with that?
About YT not having the source code: What a stupid claim is that? How could they possibly add additional window decors to the app server if they didn't have the source code for it?
Dang...wrong window. Mods, feel free to delete my post above.
> Please do understand that the XFree86 drivers generally SUCK, that's why people beg for nvidia and ati to release drivers of their own.
No, that is wrong. First, closed source XFree86 drivers generally suck, are a bitch to install and cannot respond fast enough to the quick development step of the rest of the software and adapt to the wide variety of kernel/X server version that user may possibly run.
When doing user support on debian-user-french, the most X related questions are from people who have trouble getting the nvidia drivers to work, and rarely with the real X stuff.
Finally, If people clamor for drivers from ATI or NVidia, it is only because those refuse to give out the specs for their boards to open source developers.
> For some reason KDE always seems so much better then gnome
> no matter who talks, less layers, less languages, easier
> apis and so on. Would be intresting to hear why you are
> codeing for gnome instead thought, but we can take that
> personally =)
Well, when I started with Linux I was hacking Motif applications and learning X's API. I bought books around X and Motif and saw it as the ultimative nice Toolkit. Documentation was cool, the API was cool, The stuff around it was really cool. But after some years I realized that more and more people walked off of Motif with lame excuses like Motif is resource hungry, loated and full of memoryleaks which imo was pure bullshit. I then looked around what alternatives there are because I liked to have a consistent Desktop, where the apps feel the same, where the apps use the same bottom framework to do the things. E.g. no mixture of Toolkit XYZ with other Toolkits and so on. During that time KDE and GNOME were somehow at a similar point from look and feel. Control Center was similar, Panel was similar, the apps were similar. But I got settled to GNOME because it was "C", it was the geeks Desktop and it was really damn cool. All the stuff that I liked. Thus I started hacking for GNOME, bugfixes and general contribution, working on BALSA email client, Galeon, CVSGnome, Atlantis ... all stuff I spent a lot of time into where I belived that this could really be "THE" successor finally after all the years, after the death of Amiga a sign of going in the right way. But with GNOME 2.x a lot of stuff has changed. Companies showed their interested, companies took over the direction of GNOME and some really stupid decisions have been made (this all is based upon personal opinion). During that time I had the same prejudices about KDE as many others had e.g. QT's licensing modell and that it sucks (while never have peeked for it for many years where I might have changed my opinion). Anyways I started to get mixed feelings about GNOME and I made no secret out of it to raising my voice about the stuff that I don't like. For me there was never an intention to attack the Developers of GNOME it was only an opinion that I had but some really stupid people outside (and some inside GNOME) who made GNOME some sort of fanatical religion started to slander and libel me in the public for this and I lost motivation working on GNOME because you always play the idiot who work in the bags of companies (you indirectly work as free volunteer for the boxes of companies) and you work indirectly for people who have nothing better to do than slander people in the public. Yes such people exists in GNOME and they are there today as well.. But I'm not going into that yet). Well after all this frustrations I then changed to a pre KDE 3.0 CVS version. It was first meant to be a test for 5 minutes and then scratch it again but the 5 minutes became 5 days, 5 weeks ... 5 months. I loved KDE, it had so many nice things in it (even in detail) that I would really loved to see in GNOME. The co-operation between applications e.g. I have one Bookmark system and it's being shared across applications (GNOME lacks this). e.g. having one Addressbook and have it shared with your Palm, PocketPC, CellPhone and you can even include the Address in KMail. e.g. the seamless embedding of applications in Konqueror and the fact that they have Konqueror as cool Browser and Filemanager solution. The reason for me why I was starting to work on Atlantis for GNOME.
But after 5 months I found myself become unhappy because I am no friend of C++, because I also realized that GNOME somehow overtook dominance in the Linux community. Everything was GNOME, libraries adopted GNOME specific configuration files (*.pc) files and the GNOME people backed by SUN, Ximian and Red Hat were those who often announce strange ideas in the public. It's strange magic but people seem to follow GNOME for it's appearance of fancy icons and the fact that it's C and that it's toolkit is open source rather than something which is technical far better KDE. And the fact is that C is the home of Unix made many people believe in GNOME. I also disliked how KDE installed the files without having a nice system below it. Something that GNOME solved far better. I don't think that GNOME is that bad after all but some selfdeclared Bosses and some Bad Mouthing people who direct some ropes in the GNOME community (Well their work is to develop on gnome or play the release coordinator) but they often assume they are the Boss there and have big EGO problems and problems about Teamwork or their attitude in the public made GNOME become a really boring project. Instead that these people are going to help each other, motivate each other they usually play a doublefaced game and no matter how much you try to help it become better you have no chance. Well what I like to explain now is that teamwork, co-operation and nice behaviour, encouraging and motivating are keywords to keep people developing on a plattform. I think without the key companies behind GNOME that no one would ever work on it anymore. It's just a conspiracy theory of mine
Knowing in the head what happens with GNOME made me become interested in alternatives such as MorphOS and QNX. I with that also realized that Open Source itself is a nice thing, you can peek in the source, you don't fear that the program disappears one day and you can enchance it. But I also think that companies saw the benefits of this and their marketing strategy is to make commercial business out of the work from individuals for their own moneybag and I want to get out of that circle. I don't want to blindly follow the hype of that religion anmyore which has the tendency to be more a ripoff these days. This is also a conspiracy theory of mine.
Regardless of that I do belive that Open Source is nice and I also belive that KDE is technically far better but I also see the tendency that GNOME will keep its domination but the ideas around GNOME will affect large chunks of Linux in general and I fear that not just GNOME will change, nope that the entire philosophy of Linux changes into some sort of what Macintosh is today. Not bad on the one side, but the implementation is not really that nice and this at the end leave no place for alternative or choices - besides the change of the plattform entirely.
I see myself to be in a commercial area pretty soon. A commercial nice Operating System and my own propritary work that I do and sell for a few bucks. I also know that a bunch of people already switched to Windows and MacOS only to get rid of all this EGO guys who needs a therapy.
> I also belive that QNX Photon as gui on top of neutrino
> must be way more effecient than some program on top of 3-4
> layers which in their turn is on top of gtk which is on
> top of 1-2 layers more on top of xfree86 on top of linux.
Yes exactly I fully share this. QNX was planned nicely from ground up. I was playing with the QNX ISO a few weeks ago and enjoyed it.
What? I saw in a later comment that you posted on the wrong forum, anyway, we in this forum both wanted to have zeta running on the pegasos and thought it would be great. Only concern the other one had was if they really got the source code and would have any troubles to port it or not, but i think they have it so i don't see any problems with that.
I wasn't talking on a political/idealogical/convenice point of view, I was only talking performance vise.
And i know they refuse to give out the specs, and that's why the free drivers suck, I never said it was the developers fault.
Where can i fond more information on the QNX port to the genesis ?
For zeta to run on genesis , Yellowtab needs the BeOS that imo they don't have (they'd have fixed the 1 Giog issue if they had the kernel sources). Since beos never had a HAL (hence the Pios project that never got finished), Zeta does not have a HAL and potring it to genesis is *impossible*. OpenBeOS being writtent from scratch and already having pcc support from newos is a better choice for a brigth PPC beos future (but with no apps, because I don't think openbeos will use Apple proprietary binary format used in beos ppc).
<< For zeta to run on genesis , Yellowtab needs the BeOS that imo they don't have (they'd have fixed the 1 Giog issue if they had the kernel sources). Since beos never had a HAL (hence the Pios project that never got finished), Zeta does not have a HAL and potring it to genesis is *impossible*. OpenBeOS being writtent from scratch and already having pcc support from newos is a better choice for a brigth PPC beos future (but with no apps, because I don't think openbeos will use Apple proprietary binary format used in beos ppc).>>
That would all depend, first let me start off by saying that I dont know if Yellowtab has the kernel sources or not nor do i care, but sometimes you have to let some bugs go for the time being because If you try to fix some you could break something else that is more important so I wouldnt say whether yes or no to the question of if they have the kernel sources, but the question is; Are their engineers knowledgable enough to fix the problem?
Sure, Linux, or BSD, or Darwin is -at this time- a lot more advanced than the alpha (quiet stable for an alpha OS without memory protection...) MorphOS...
But why AGAIN and AGAIN going the easy way and building a "new" OS over an unix kernel (Darwin may be different than Unix, Linux or BSD, it is still based on UNIX) ?!
I'm happy they have chosen to develop and support MorphOS.
I like MorphOS because it is light, powerfull, fast, EASY, logic, simple... in a word: it isn't UNIX.
I think MorphOS has its place. People start to use Linux in embedded such as cellphones,... because there is nothing else than WinCE and Linux. MorphOS, just like AmigaOS,can be used easier and with less ressources than *any* current available OS. And seeing that almost every "new" OS is based on the same old technology called Unix (in opposition to Multics), it will remain the only one for a long long time...
Now, if you don't like Windows, you will have the CHOICE to use something else than Unix: MorphOS !
Thanks so much for your very complete and intresting answer, it's nice to get some insight in stuff you as a regular user don't know that much about.
I know what you mean with people choosing gnome only for the good looking icons, heck, they and the buttons are the only reason i like it =D, I have never liked the looks of kde but i guess it's themable and you have convinced me to actually build kde 3.14 on my freebsd/x86, i'll give it a shoot some day. Right now i use xfce4 but normally i use ratpoison, fluxbox or evilwm, not because they look best, they often have no look at all, i use them because they are convenient and you can use them with your keyboard instead of moving your hands over to the mouse all the time.
I can understand things gets different then companies gets intrests in the products and want to do their race. They don't give anything, they just try to earn some cash on the work of others. And as you have pointed out it looks like gnome will be it in the end, even thought i see it as kde and gnome are both relatively large and can both compete about the *nix desktop. It's not that hard to understand that people want a nice looking and usable desktop, so then they actually get that they focus on that solution, just to bad it might not be the best one. (oh, where in the computer industry have we seen that before? =D)
Maybe there is a need for some other license? Something which does not allowed anyone to sell products based on the program or something, like the case is for regular freeware. In the begining it would probably just slow down the acceptance in the public for the solution thought.
Finally i've tried qnx a little myself, signed up as phoenix developer back in the gateway-amiga days and got a book from them, installed and checked the os out a little and have tried it a few times since then. Only a month ago or so i was browsing their webpages and found TONS of developer information and documentation about the os, things I really see as a huge bonus. Currently my real problem is that i want to start to code for the fun of it just like i did back in the days before school, but i can't find any good information on how things work and therefor got no starting point so it never starts :/. Maybe i just start to do java stuff since atleast there are good documentation available and the programs would run on most operating systems anyway. Plus i think it's just stupid to code in insecure languages and reinvent the wheel again and again all the time (yes, i'm talking about c).
Only bad thing with qnx is that then i had read the pages, printed out some documentation, downloaded the cd, installed it and well.. we ide wasn't there in the free edition, and i can't afford the real one, so i'm stuck once again. If i only had the ide aswell so i could feel at home and try some things out qnx would have huge chances of beeing my only os on this x86.
I don't know actually, but the phoenix coordinator(?) greenboy have sent his pegasos to the qnx people and atleast one of their developers are working on it, so it will be there. You could probably join #morphos or #phoenix on arcnet(IRC) and ask him in person.
Regarding BeOS yellowtab has a license to use the source code anyway they want so that shouldn't be a problem.
I probably forgot a lot of things i wanted to say, and wrote some things i could have skiped but anyway, here it goes =D
Plus Darwin is a very modular kernel, I do not know what sound card Genesi use in Pegasos. But if there is a linux driver you can easily modify it to work well with the modular Darwin kernel.
How that? Judging from my previous experience in writing sound drivers for BeOS and OS X, using Linux and ALSA source code as reference for the BeOS drivers, I would certainly not use the word "easily" when speaking of porting drivers from Linux to Darwin.
Like all sub-sites that will fall under the Phoenix Developer Consortium umbrella, this one has been built around Felix Schwarz's MorphOS Developer Connection codebase, which will continually expand to incorporate any needed features. All ___ Developer Connections and download and Pegasos community resources under the Phoenix umbrella will soon share a common login and substantial mirroring and load sharing.
Much thanks to Felix, Genesi's Linux man Sven Luther, and graphician/webdesigner André Siegel to get so much done so quickly! Many others are contributing to handle legal and licensing issues - as it all comes together the organizational approach will be to quickly direct anyone to the proper areas and supply needed communication channels through and across - this becomes like one-stop-shopping.
I should mention that Pegasos download sites will become "Superbundles" for all the various OSes running on Genesi's Pegasos wherever possible, and that we are going to bring all accredited Pegasos User Groups (PUGs) into the mix by providing any additional resources they should desire - along with a common "umbrella" gateway with channels to allow all PUGs to share ideas, information, promotions, tradeshow/presentation resources, and to work on common organizational concerns.
We have an incredible array of partners and friends gathering to bring vitality and support to the Pegasos platform - which indeed IS a CONCEPT! : }
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
> Ludovic Hirlimann :
>Where can i fond more information on the QNX port to the genesis ?
Ludovic, QNX has been ported to the Pegasos I by QNX. Now QNX awaits Pegasos II hardware to do further work. The Pegasos II becomes available October 15. At that time QNX will finish porting and begin QA. At this time there in no information other than what is above that is publicly available.
But later, expect joint press releases.
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
... about QNX porting status consult irc.freenode.net #qnx and ask 'cdm' (Chris McKillop).
IMHO Pegasos competition are the via cpu + mobo combo's and i wouldn't be surprised if a g3 outperforms a C3 so playing a divx in real time is possible with a Pegasos. Which would make it the ideal livingroom media box. The people who use it as a media box don't care what OS it runs but they probably know a linux distribution a lot better than Darwin
*looks at the screenshots*
*wipes off a single, tiny tear*
I'm a fan of the Amiga and it's children (I consider Genesi/MorphOS, AmigaInc/OS4, and AROS to be "children of the Amiga", "The Amiga", as far as I'm concerned, is/are the Commodore Amiga and the machines made in the 80's and early 90's).
That being said, those screenshots are, just... astounding. I'd love to get the chance to run this OS, but can't spare $1,000 for the board just to test it, and I doubt there will be any demos in my hometown anytime soon (Honolulu, Hawai'i).
Is there a modern graphics renderer behind that magic, such as something that can do for example, (graphical) transparency, network transparency, the kind of vector scaling that Quartz can do, and so on?
Love the hardware, love the (look of) the software. The only Amiga spawn that I can play with now realistically is AROS though.
You know, I feel a rant coming on. Uh oh... *eyes glaze over*
You know, I have a complaint. Many of the modern Amiga fans I hear from complain and complain every time someone, for example, AmigaInc, or Genesi, tries something new. Genesi's use of the A-Box and Q-Box technology is very interesting, as is AmigaInc's purchase of Tao/Intent technology and their work on that. AROS is the worst offender in a way. In it's day, the Amiga was all about innovation, but all modern projects either try to simply make a perfect copy of what was (AROS, UAE) with only enough new ideas to make it run, or every time they try something innovative, there are cries and gnashing of teeth from the "faithful" about how it just isn't Amiga-like. Look, if it's a perfect copy of anything, it isn't Amiga-like -- because the Amiga was, at it's time, a plastic box full of innovations (true innovations) as well as good ideas bought or borrowed from wherever. *gets on his high horse* in MY day -- if someone in the Amiga world mentioned copying someone (say, f'r'instance, the PC) THEN there would be cries and gnashing of teeth! There have been many, many arguments over if or when the Amiga died. I say it died, not when Commodore went out of business, not when Amiga got swapped around like a bad case of VD, but basically on the day the Amiga 600 was invented. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! *eyes return to normal*
Um.. the price of a Pegasos II motherboard starts at $299, not $1000.
However, very good sentiment.
"But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community". "
Wrong. So wrong. First of all what's 'THE opensource community'? I think there are multiple communities, there's not one 'closedsource community' either. Not everybody involved with opensource shares the same interest. That alone makes your statement bull.
Onwards, Linux is only a kernel. 'THE opensource community' you're talking about doesn't adore only Linux, nor Linux only. Like i said, people have different interests. There are people who use FreeBSD and MS Windows, there are people who only use OpenBSD, there are people who prefer GNU/Hurd, there are people who hack NetBSD on different archs and also own an Amiga, and finally lots of other possibilities, i'm sure i'm forgetting a ton of OSes, let alone forgetting individual projects. Another funny thing is, Linus said he wants fair competition. Oh well, FWIW, that ideal drives directly against "Linux, Linux, Linux".
My third problem with your opinion is that you state ex-Amiga people ''don't care about the license''. Perhaps some wouldn't. I think everybody in this world should care about a license, and foresee what consequences it has. Think before you do. Back when Amiga was popular, there were no open source alternatives for desktop users. Hell, PC's and home-end users weren't even popular. Times changed. License attitudes changed. So this comparison is incorrect.
Your opinion is full of stereotypes and fallacies.
Thanks to opensource software, closedsource software has to become a lot better to be able to compete with opensource software, because good opensource has 2 big advantages: free as in speech and free as in beer. MorphOS is *NEITHER*. The same power which is centralized with companies such as Microsoft is what these centralized cells want: money. If not, then you should do the gift economy thing (which opensource imo is about, too).
"Thanks to opensource software, closedsource software has to become a lot better to be able to compete with opensource software, because good opensource has 2 big advantages: free as in speech and free as in beer."
This is where closedsource software tries to protect theirselves against competition. Patents, DMCA, lawsuits, FUD, and all kind of other stuff.
Compare RealPLayer and their HelixCommunity, which they call 'opensource', with Xiph/Ogg Vorbis. Theora isn't ready yet so don't mind that as for now.
Player/server: GNU GPL vs. centralized opensource license.
Codec (!): BSD license patent-free vs. closed source & patented
The difference is clear, the power is clear, the centralization is clear. Like a charm. Who supports innovation? Who gets money and power?
Personally, if MorphOS would ever become opensource, i'd buy PPC hardware in the future. At least one fast box from my spare money, possibly more, and if i liked it i'd recommend it.
This debate about different operating systems is pointless. Genesi is only producing 500 MoB for the 15 of
October release date (to be followed by a 1st commercial production run of 5000 at some unspecified date in
the future). Without being able to purchase the PegaSoS, Genesi can claim to run Windoze & Mac OsX as well;
who is there to dispute them when there is no hardware available to verify their claims?
That being said, I would like to purchase a PegaSoS as soon as possible, since it doesn't appear likely that
Hyperion will release AmigaOS 4.0 any time soon (otherwise I might be tempted to get an AmigaOne -- which
by the way, can be found in a complete system at Software Hut). Do you hear me Genesi? The clock is ticking on your opportunity to make some money because I'm certain that there are more Amiga users that feel as I do.
Once AmigaOS 4.0 is released, your window to the market is going to start closing! Genesi has published a list of compatible
hardware, but there are several omissions that would make it difficult for even an Electronics Engineer such as
myself to build their own system; for example: what specific power supply model would they recommend to
hook up to their product? Keyboard? mouse? Everything that they did publish is of course good to know, but
a little (inadequate) knowledge is a dangerous thing. Let's leave the debate about which OS is best for the
PegaSOS until such time as complete systems are available, & in adequate numbers so that everyone that wants
one can buy one (I'm willing to assume more debt, so price is not an issue here).
Jim Steichen, author of AmigaTalk (aka StychoKiller)
AmigaOS4 has little to do with Genesi's future vitality one way or another. The roadmap we've been working from is NOT designed around a miniscule (yet still familiar) market that is unlikely to expand much - thus the Genesi interest and support for multiple OSes, OEM-driven projects, industrial and embedded markets, content communities, etc.
I realize not all of this has been mentioned in this thread, but in "amiga community" forums Genesi has had an open dialog about this roadmap for many months.
Also note that Pegasos resellers are ready and willing to provide complete systems and offer advice for components - as are current users and developers. As I finish with the last of my current Phoenix developer-seeding offers that put hardware into the hands of those who wish to make things happen, I am preparing to sell 100 Pegasos I boards (that have been traded in by developers and users toward Pegasos II boards) for 99 Euros.
I've already got quite a list of developers who are going to take advantage of the hardware soon-to-be available, and the support that comes with it. In some cases I will be recommending free systems to developers who wish to do major projects.
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
Jim Steichen, Author of AmigaTalk says:
> Without being able to purchase the PegaSoS, Genesi can
> claim to run Windoze & Mac OsX as well; who is there to
> dispute them when there is no hardware available to
> verify their claims?
Well wait, there are about 600 machines out there so you can get the independent verification you are talking about, and then Genesi intends to get another 500 out shortly. I personally witnessed OS X running on a Pegasos via Mac on Linux. This was at CES back in January, and I've seen it demoed since as well. I read a detailed review of a not current version of Windows running in Bochs emulator in MorphOS, so that is on the level too, but that is just straight emulation and Genesi does not claim to "run Windoze." And really, who the heck would want to buy a Pegasos to do that?!
Now QNX for Pegasos is an interesting case. We haven't seen much independently confirmed on that, and people are asking about it. My understanding is that such a QNX version is under development, and in an advanced stage, but still not ready for public consumption at this time.
MorphOS gets a bum rap sometimes. My personal experience is that it got a lot more stable with v. 1.4, which was surprising considering that 1.4 introduced all sorts of new features such as the JIT, Trance. People who knock MorphOS should make sure they have the latest version. It got a lot better. MorphOS is the standard for Pegasos and people tend to expect more from it than the other OS projects for Pegasos, which are cut some slack for being in developmental or experimental stages. So MorphOS takes flak from some Pegasos users which is fair enough, but it also getting good reviews from others. And it is improving.
for the moment morphos IS free as in beer
Cool. Where can i download it?
The train has left for a while and you are still at the station crying,
shouting:"Wait for us we have better stuff in about 2 years time"
Best wishes to you
dpi: It comes with the board, and then you can sign up to a mailing list which gives you login to genesis ftpsite there you have both morphos and the superbundle.
PegXLin, the PegasosPPC Linux distro has been awarded as of 12 October 2003 "Ready for IBM Technology" logo approval. You will find PegXLin now listed in the IBM Global Business Directory.