Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 10th Oct 2003 03:55 UTC, submitted by Kermit Woodall
Morphos This page is dedicated to providing information on running Linux on the Pegasos. ISO images included. We would love to see a better Yellow Dog Linux support and also Darwin on Pegasos.
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What exactly is Pegasus?
by Alex on Fri 10th Oct 2003 04:10 UTC

Is it adesktop product? A server product?

How is it different from a Apple computer or a normal X86 one? Does it run Windows too?

Finally, where can I get one?

Start here!
by bbrv on Fri 10th Oct 2003 04:13 UTC

Hi Alex!

Please start here:

http://www.genesi.lu/genesi_marketing.php

R&B

Screenshots
by Alex (The Original) on Fri 10th Oct 2003 05:05 UTC

Check this out. These screenshots look awesome.

http://www.morphos.net/images.php?gallery=13

Why don't we have something like this on the x86 platform natively?

sounded like the ultimate platform
by zamorins on Fri 10th Oct 2003 05:19 UTC


With the number of OS that PegaSOS supported, it seems like a very good platform to build an ultimate desktop

I wonder if Virtual PC will be able to run under MOL (mac on linux) then running Windows software would be possible.
Can anyone confirm this ?

How much is the price of this thing?

?
by Anonymous on Fri 10th Oct 2003 05:46 UTC

How is it possible that the screenshots look so nice, when other operating systems have hundreds, possibly thousands of people working on the GUI and it does not look comparable?

Eugenia,

I just wanted to clarify two things :

Darwin is not a Linux OS, instead it is of the *BSD filiation, and thus more at home on a *BSD support page @pegasosppc.com.

Better YellowDog support, well, it just need an installer, and thus someone willing to do the job. I don't think this will happen enxtly, but the image installer guys are preparing yellow dog isos also, or so it seem. Anyway, what do you want yellow dog if you have Debian ?

And then to Zamorins : VirtualPC has been bought by microsoft, if i remember well, and anyway, there are native x86 emulator available to linux, among them you can find bochs : http://bochs.sourceforge.net/

Friendly,

Sven Luther (No email provided, to avoid spamage, but my username is svenluther and the servername is fr.genesi.lu naturally).

Re : Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 06:10 UTC

>Darwin is not a Linux OS

Don't say. ;D
I know that Darwin is a BSD, I report on it, remember? But I am of the opinion that housing a *modified* Darwin as the default OS on Pegasos, is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together. In other words, build up on what Apple gives you and make a decent and *unique* product out of it (with modified GUIs etc for differentiantion), instead of doing yet-another-linux-based-product.

>Anyway, what do you want yellow dog if you have Debian ?

I want a more modern Linux than the KDE 2.x and Gnome 1.4 that Debian offers on my Pegasos today. YDL is Red Hat-based, and Red Hat is the "standard" on Linux market. Personally, I am a Slackware user when I have the hots to use Linux (not very often), but between Debian and Red Hat, I personally prefer the ease of use of Red Hat. And with YUM and apt-get on YDL, it ain't bad.

But personally, I would prefer a modified and cared-up Darwin, above all for Pegasos because that would be unique enough. To create a new platform and stay competitive, you need to innovate and you need to offer unique capabilities. A modified Darwin can give you that, because there are no big distros or any company building up upon Darwin today (except Apple of course, which is not the same kind of competition you are cared for)

Re : Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 06:19 UTC

>is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together

I need to explain this. I am not saying that Darwin is actually better than Linux on all levels, it probably is not. However, what matters in the OS market is innvovation and differentation. Darwin can give you that. Linux can't, because every 10-year old can install it on his grandpa's Pentium 166 he found locked in the loft. Linux is good to be there as the second choice on the Pegasos Platform, and MorphOS the third choice (as much as I love alternative OSes, MorphOS is just not up to the task to compete with the monster OSes that are far along the way in many respects).
This is why I try to push for Darwin. Because you have a chance here. Get the OS, build upon it, *modify* Gnome or KDE to be unique on your platform with extra goodies not found on Linux (e.g. OpenDarwin/Fink ports, new GUI etc) and then I am sure you will raise some eyebrowses in the market. You will have a solid OS that is customized the way you want to, plus it would be solid enough to compete with Linux. MorphOS just doesn't count in the *market*, it is a toy. It is a cool/geek OS, amiga lovers will like it, but it stops just right there. If you want to make it as "Pegasos, the Platform", you need to invest elsewhere, and while Linux is a great investment, it doesn't give you differentiation. Darwin does.

But I am of the opinion that housing a *modified* Darwin as the default OS on Pegasos, is better than any of the Linuxes and MorphOS put together. In other words, build up on what Apple gives you and make a decent and *unique* product out of it (with modified GUIs etc for differentiantion), instead of doing yet-another-linux-based-product.

You've probably got a point there, since Darwin is optimized for the PPC platform, anyway.

I wonder, though, whether that's currently a viable option economicly. You have to consider, they'd have to develop their own desktop environment for it, and then provide developers with some incentive to port to it. And they've likely already made a substantial investment in developing MorphOS. For a small company they'd be spreading themselves kind of thin.

Linux may not be the best OS for this platform, but it does have the advantage of a substantial application base out of the box.

I agree, though, a Darwin based environment would be way cool.

Cooler still would be if they could talk Apple into granting them a license for OS X. But I suppose that's an even a farther fetched idea.

Re : Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 06:55 UTC

> You have to consider, they'd have to develop their own desktop environment for it

No, nobody says to go clean-slate and redo everything. That would be madness. What I am saying, is to modify the looks, gnome-panel, nautilus and context menus etc. of Gnome (or the equivelants of KDE) and then create a product that is *different enough*, and yet based and *still compatible* with Gnome/KDE. Think more of what Ximian does for Gnome, but just one step further. API compatibility should be retained, otherwise you lose easy porting of apps.

> and then provide developers with some incentive to port to it.

API and source compatibility should be retained no matter what. It is important to get apps easily.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by rrp on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:13 UTC

I agree that having Darwin on it would be excellent. Although I'd wager that maintaining Linux on it will be easier than Darwin, since it has a larger base of coders than Darwin (and I'm only talking PPC).

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:17 UTC

Apple maintains Darwin. That's enough bunch of coders. Plus, Darwin is more optimized for the PPC platform than Linux is.

Both Linux and Darwin are POSIX, so I don't see the difficulty of porting let's say, gnome or kde, to either of those. The difficulty would be the same.

Moreover, Darwin uses a license that won't force Genesi to open source everything if they don't want to. In fact, if Genesi wants to retain this differentation, they could do it easily than with Linux. Depends what Genesi feels like doing.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by rrp on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:24 UTC

It's not actually about the OS itself, but the hardware drivers. Someone has to maintain the drivers to allow it to run on the Pegasos, and I don't see Apple doing that. Sure Pegasos could do that, but I'm not about to demand it, I think it would be better for the open source community to take care of it. If I knew how to code on that level I'd love to do it, but how many others would? Unfortunatly my coding skills don't go much beyond "hello world" in C, C++ and ObjectC.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:29 UTC

>Someone has to maintain the drivers to allow it to run on the Pegasos, and I don't see Apple doing that.

Well, in this hypothetical scenario we discuss here today, Genesi just keeps doing what they do with MorphOS: develop and maintain. The same they would have to do about Darwin. I am not talking about Genesi becoming a distributor a-la Linux, I am talking about doing some real engineering. Without the right amount of engineering and support, no Platfrom can survive. Apple does the same, they have a platform, and they develop and maintain it. They live the Linux maintainance to others, but they have a main OS product that they put all care in: MacOSX. Same should be for Genesi: Darwin (or whatever marketing OS name Genesi will come up with for differentiation sake).
Nobody says that it is easy, or that all work should be done by the community. To support a whole platform you need the right kind of guts. And engineers.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by rrp on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:37 UTC

Are you suggesting that they drop MorphOS, then? Or continue and support both? That would be quite an achievement for a small company to be supporting 2 OSes. If they did get Darwin running on it, I think that would definately put more of a differentiation in their product.

>Are you suggesting that they drop MorphOS, then?

Open source it via a strict license (e.g. don't allow a port to other platforms) and let the MorphOS/Amiga community have a play with it and Genesi to gather back the fixed goodies and package it as a "distributor". MorphOS does not hold significant value for the Pegasos Platform (or any other platform), because the OS is still alpha quality and it can't do as much as a Unix can. It is not a mature OS, I have it locking on me every 15 minutes here. I can't possibly put the fate of a whole business on this OS, no matter if I am a geek or not. Business is business.

MorphOS is a great geek OS. So, let the geek play with it. And let Genesi do some good engineering on Darwin, maintain and develop Darwin as the OS of choise for the platform, and be just a distributor for Linux and MorphOS.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by rrp on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:48 UTC

OK, You've got me convinced. ;) I wish I could afford to purchase one.

Well, i don't agree, you say Darwin, but in reality you think Mac OS X. And Darwin without the graphical frontend stuff is not that much different than linux on the graphical side.

And adding a nice differentiating GUI on top of Darwin is a lot of work, much more than we want to invest, and work that would be better invested in MorphOS, which is what you are calling for. Furthermore, if you go the MacOS X clone route you are thinking, you would soon have a mega lawsuite, and all the Apple legal department on your back.

And what many people search, is the official linux support, and Debian, together with its 8000+ packages is a good choice for that. Sure you think Redhat is the default, but this is only because you hear the marketting gimmicks of them, and that's it. Debian is much superior and of better quality. Sure the current Debian/Woody is quite old (frowen in spring 2002, released in july) but the new upcoming Debian/Sarge is much more advanced and modern, and should feature X 4.3.0 as well as Gnome 2.4, OpenOffice 1.1, and other such stuff (don't know about KDE, i am no KDE guy). Release is scheduled for december, but we will probably slip a bit, and it will support the pegasos (I and II) out of the box. Also the PegXLin stuff is an image of a working debian/sarge installation, so you could have this already. Furthermore, Debian has just been elected as prefered distribution by Linux Journal :

http://pr.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=785&mode=thread&order=0o

And it is ironic that you mention apt-get as a thing for Yellow Dog, since it is a debian tool, which i have been using since 99 or so.

Mmm, i will stop and start another post. OSnews urgently needs a character counter to ease post writing.

Re: Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 07:56 UTC

At least this is what I would do if I was the creator of a PPC-based platform. Other OSes (openbeos, newos etc) don't matter as much at this early point. Genesi needs to have a good foot in the market with a strong and _well-supported_ OS product and THEN ask for such OS ports to enrich its platform. Genesi needs to focus more on *the* OS that can drive their hardware sales, instead of spending energy and money on small OSes that don't matter in the business.

This is what I would suggest as a business plan for the platform:

1. Darwin-based modified OS is the base of the Platform. Full support, full development, focus and engineering.

2. Work with external people --the way it works now-- to port YDL, MDK, SuSE, Debian and Gentoo to Pegasos. YDL and Debian should be the most important ones and should get the most attention and help. Linux is everywhere these days and it should be pursued as the No1 alternative to #1 Darwin main product. Genesi should be a supporter for Linux in the technical level and offer Services (for a fee of course) to companies who wish to run on Linux instead of Darwin on their Pegasos.

3. Open Source MorphOS under a strict license. Let MorphOS be the "cherry of the cake" in the Platform, the cute little OS that could, the geek toy that you can only find in the Pegasos Platform. Genesi should only be a packager/distributor for it, not a developer.

4. FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. Help them make the port to the Pegasos Platform, but don't base any products upon it. Evaluate them every 6 months to see if you can or should base any Services or products upon these ports.

5. OpenBeOS, NewOS, Syllable, SkyOS etc. They don't matter for your business, stop spending energy on them. If they want to port by themselves, help them on the technical level, but don't spend too much energy on them. They can't bring money to the company. They are just fun.

That's my friendly opinion...

>And adding a nice differentiating GUI on top of Darwin is a lot of work, much more than we want to invest, and work that would be better invested in MorphOS, which is what you are calling for.

Excuse me, but modifying Gnome is much less work than fixing MorphOS. MorphOS is an "immature" OS in terms of stability and features. Darwin is not. Linux is not. FreeBSD is not.
You need 10x times more work to invest on MorphOS than what you would need for a modified Darwin product which is pretty much working well, today.

>Furthermore, if you go the MacOS X clone route you are thinking,

No, I am not thinking of cloning Mac OS X. I never even mentioned something like it.

I am thinking of modifying Gnome or KDE (my personal option would be Gnome because of its "less is more" philosophy) to look and feel unique. And unique, does not mean "mac os x".

>you would soon have a mega lawsuite, and all the Apple legal department on your back.

Apple has no grounds to sue you over Darwin. Darwin is open source. The stuff on top of it, is just Gnome and X. Also open source and not in Apple's domain.

I think you have mixed up a few things... ;)

Response to Eugenia (second part).
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:06 UTC

...

open source it with a strict licensing forbiding postings ? Well Eugenia, it seems that you have no idea what open source (or free software) is all about. With something like that, you will receive a very cold if not frigid response from the open source comunity.

Also, you speak about darwin and the hardware drivers, i think that the linux comunity has much more chances to get good quality and numerous drivers than apple is, after all, there is no way apple, or even microsoft can mach the sheer amount of developer linux can muster. Also, with the current scheme, the only benefit would be in graphic drivers, and these are part of quartz, and the layers of Mac OS X that Apple does not release as open source, so ...

Also, you want to invest thousands of man/hours of work to port Gnome/KDE/Whatever to Darwin, and to obtain what in the end ? It will be undistinguishable from any other Linux desktop stuff, and since you are going against the flow of things, cost you much more in investement than the benefit you would get of it. Far more interesting would be a Gnome Theme with MorphOS like Graphic quality, distributed exclusively with the pegasos motherboards for example. That is all the differentiation you will see anyway, and much cheaper to do for more benefit.

And again, Linux, and especially Debian among them, is a good recognized value (even Progeny, which employs many debian developers, didn't continue providing their distrib, since their customer where asking for debian), and opens other potential markets to the Pegasos, like the server community (and the pegasos II would be a good product for there) and other such.

Ok i hope it is not too long.

Peg-Darwin
by Pete on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:12 UTC

First a minor issue with the autonomy of Darwin: Apple seems to update darwin with every few OSX updates. Can the wider community steer darwin to their own needs like they could with a linux distro? (i.e. the linux as kernel + distro vs. *BSD platform notion). Is forking of darwin permitted by Apple's license, if the need arose?

One would assume that Darwin has better hardware support for PPC than Linux, due to Apple's influence.

Someone might comment whether all the important drivers are in darwin such as airport extreme - or only with OSX. As I understand 802.11g isn't available for linux for the most popular chipset since it's manufacturer won't open up the specs.

I agree with Eugenia that darwin has potential but viability who knows. Perhaps Pegasos providing resources is just what fink/darwinports/gentoo alliance needs.

Licensing issues aside, the gnustep project might be a valueable ally, providing tools that work equally well under Peg-Darwin (gnustep) and OSX (Cocoa). My understanding of the opendarwin team, e.g. Jordan, is that they're keen innovate in providing a great OS foundation but reluctant to disclose anything in the 'closed' part. Releasing things under a compatible license might benefit Apple, even.

<< Begin Java troll. ;) >>

Though, if I had to run another OS on a PPC, for the moment I'd choose Linux. Why? Simple reason, IBM. If I wanted to run Java; use their JVM. Potentially other enterprise software such as DB2, Websphere etc could run on Pegasos Linux. This differentiates Linux from a hobby OS.

Don't count on Sun/IBM/Apple releasing Java for Darwin.

Re : Pegasos Platform Gets More Linux Support
by rrp on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:14 UTC

One problem with Darwin though, is that XFree86 uses the Darwin Framebuffer for the video, it does not use the native XFree86 drivers, therefore Pegasos or whoever would have to release video card drivers for Darwin to get any decent color and resolution.

Re : Eugenia's comments ...
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:15 UTC

> Excuse me, but modifying Gnome is much less work than fixing MorphOS. MorphOS is an "immature" OS in terms of stability and features. Darwin is not. Linux is not. FreeBSD is not.

MorphOS is the hearth of Pegasos, anything else will only be a second OS. And it is me as the Linux guy at genesi who says it.

That said, i was comparing the cost of developing linux to the one to develop Darwin, nothing else.

> No, I am not thinking of cloning Mac OS X. I never even mentioned something like it.

But it is the secret desire behind your propositions, many other have this same thinking, and it is easy to detect it.

Linux is a proven value, worldwide known for its stability.

And if you plan on putting Gnome on Darwin, you could as well put it on top of Linux or on top of Solaris or HPUX for that matter.

> Apple has no grounds to sue you over Darwin. Darwin is open source. The stuff on top of it, is just Gnome and X. Also open source and not in Apple's domain.

Apple has sued for similar themes and other such flimsy things in the past, you can bet they would sue for anything meaningfull you do on top of Darwin, apart from simply running an X server and some common desktop environment which will be more work to support anyway.

BTW, the only reason Apple choose BSD over Linux, apart from the Next heritage, is the BSD licence which gives them all the rights without limitation compared to the linux GPL.

OpenBSD ready for Pegasos II too!
by bbrv on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:16 UTC

The OpenBSD distro for the Pegasos II will be ready for the 15 October release too. We should have that support site ready then too. Here it is: http://odc.pegasosppc.com

Sven, has pretty much covered the Linux vs. Darwin issues with you and while we do have two OpenDarwin folks ready to go forward with the port to the Pegasos (we need to get them machines for the next steps), we confess we do not know enough about what is happening in that community/environment to make a full and reasonable call on the whole issue.

As for Darwin as way to excite Mac users, we thought it more advantageous to take a Knoppix-like approach with a CD bootable MorphOS for Apple Computer Users. It is a bit cheaper for us and for the user less hassle. Without reconfiguring their hard drives they could take a test ride. We could also take the "Trojan Horse" approach and do this with MorphOS hidden under a CD bootable application/game (again on MorphOS) that then leads them to an online world, etc.

We should actually have the online game support site up next week too...:-) We started that whole discussion online some time ago and today it has been turned into a 16,000 word design document and a project on its way to a bright future. The discussion starts here:

http://amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9320&forum=23...

We are open to just about any idea fused to diligent activity and we are willing to provide support, including a Pegasos to talented folks that can assist us in our pusuit of success for the platform. Thanks for the discussion and ideas.

R&B
bbrv@genesi.lu

RE: Response to Eugenia (second part).
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:20 UTC

>With something like that, you will receive a very cold if not frigid response from the open source comunity.

But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community".

> Also, you speak about darwin and the hardware drivers, i think that the linux comunity has much more chances to get good quality and numerous drivers than apple is

Are you telling me that Apple has a driver problem? You forget what a Platform is. YOU control the platform, the way Apple does its own. If Darwin can't have "enough drivers", what makes you think that MorphOS can???

> with the current scheme, the only benefit would be in graphic drivers, and these are part of quartz

Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach.

>Also, you want to invest thousands of man/hours of work to port Gnome/KDE/Whatever to Darwin

See above.

>It will be undistinguishable from any other Linux desktop stuff

EXACTLY why I said that you need INNOVATION and DIFFERENTIATION. This is where your engineering will go, NOT in trying to port KDE and Gnome. These are already ported!

> Far more interesting would be a Gnome Theme with MorphOS like Graphic quality, distributed exclusively with the pegasos motherboards for example

And so your Darwin would be. Why an non-Amiga person would like to purchase Pegasos and work with the crashing and under-featured MorphOS? I don't get it, I am sorry. I am talking business here and you are talking geek fan talk. Or are your customer target JUST ex-Amiga users? Because in this case, I do back you up. But if you are talking about a new Platform here, with NEW customers other than the 1000 Amiga users left in the planet, then you need a tank OS, not a rifle.

>That is all the differentiation you will see anyway, and much cheaper to do for more benefit.

Benefit? For whom?

>And again, Linux, and especially Debian among them, is a good recognized value

Did I say otherwise? In my proposed business plan above, Linux is the #2 product for Genesi, selling what you can sell with Linux: services.

Ok, I am off to bed now, it is 1:20 AM here. Bye.

Re: Sven
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:23 UTC

> But it is the secret desire behind your propositions, many other have this same thinking, and it is easy to detect it.

I am sorry, but you know me very little. I have run more than 30 OSes in my life and countless distros. I strive for INNOVATION and uniqueness, not copying Apple's MacOSX. You misundestood me.

Re : Eugenias OS plans ...
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:26 UTC

Ok, a last post before i go back to serious work ;) )

> Genesi needs to focus more on *the* OS that can drive their hardware sales, instead of spending energy and money on small OSes that don't matter in the business.

Well, you think that Darwin, which is after all as much of a geeky toy OS as MorphOS is at this time, even lagging a bit in dektop support, will be able to drive hardware sales. This is not the truth, but Linux can drive hardware sales, even hardware sales for people who have never heard of apple, amiga, darwin, etc. before. There is great momentus behind linux right now, and this is what will driver hardware sales.

And by going with Debian, you immediately gain the benefit of the 800+ debian developers working for you ;) )

BTW, i hope you don't take it badly, i am no native english speaker, and altough my written english is quite good, i may not grasp certain languages subtleties, so just to be sure, no offense intented.

RE: OpenBSD ready for Pegasos II too!
by Eugenia on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:29 UTC

>As for Darwin as way to excite Mac users

No, the incentive is to actually excite x86 users with the unique Darwin (that's for PC users who can't afford Macs or can't install Darwin on x86 (it is a b*tch to install it on x86)), not Mac users. It works the other way around.

And now, _really_ going to bed. ;)

Re : Open source
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:30 UTC

> But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community".

You are wrong, if you call open source something which is not, like you are doing, then you will have the open source folk on you, which is something that have happened in the past (for the QPL, for Apple, etc.). Don't make the mistake of thinking the open source community is not attentive to this, they are very much attentive and over sensible to it, and rightly so, what can be seen with the whole SCO show.

OK!
by bbrv on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:33 UTC

OK, Eugenia, we will chew on all of that, but MorphOS is *our* work in progress. With the PowerPC logo for the Pegasos and the "Ready for IBM Technology" logo for MorphOS just awarded this past week -- see http://www.morphos-news.de/ for details -- we will continue to improve the OS as we head toward more mobility and a much smaller Pegasos in the next release (it can be handheld, but it can plug into a television or a monitor on a desktop too). In the meanwhile, we *will* support nearly any productive effort that does advance the platform. Our only risk: trying to do too much and not staying focused on the need to stay in business while all these pots cook away. For now, we are in the business of being the computer for the "geek" market. We need to satisfy them first, because *we think* it will be this OS smorgasbord and their respective development communities that take the Pegasos and Genesi to the next level. :-)

R&B

Re: Darwin vs Linux stuff
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:38 UTC

> Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach.

Well, sure, go and try to run a Radeon 9600 on Linux/ppc. There are no drivers, even free ones, that support 3D. All the interesting stuff is in the ATI proprietary drivers, or in the MACOS X drivers. As a XFree86 developer in my spare time, i am well placed to know the reality of this. There is much more chance that a MorphOS driver would be available, than a Darwin drivers, and apparently, as someone says here, X is not even accelerated on Darwin.

As for the rest, you accuse me to have a MorphOS fan talk, while i am not even running MorphOS on my pegasos currently (well only a textmode console right now, enough to do kernel compilation). Our main difference is that i place Linux above everything else in your master plan, and morphos in the second place. Let's agree to disagree on that, and retake this discussion again in three month from now. And now, back to serious work.

Re: Hidden desire
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:40 UTC


> I am sorry, but you know me very little. I have run more than 30 OSes in my life and countless distros. I strive for INNOVATION and uniqueness, not copying Apple's MacOSX. You misundestood me.

Well your subconcious hidden desire then ;) ))

What he said!
by bbrv on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:40 UTC

...we may be 5000 miles away from Sven now, but we are right next to him here. Linux IS changing the world and the Pegasos will ride that wave into the hands of less sophisticated users (folks not reading this thread) with THIS release of the Pegasos. There are major shifts occuring in Europe (and elsewhere) away from anything Microsoft. The opportunity is now for the alternative that can allow people to do what they need to do, but not require a regular check to Redmond.
R&B

2 things...
by sasquatch666 on Fri 10th Oct 2003 08:56 UTC

One,when will these systems be ready for shipping,and how will they compete price-wise to Apple computers
Secondly,I'm not sure how this could be done,but it sure as hell would be nice to see Yellowtab's Zeta-BeOS running on this platform,apparently the MorphOS folks have a thorough understanding of the newer PPC architecture to build an OS for it and If Yellowtab has any source code for BeOS as they imply, this seems possible ,in my mind at least.
I think I could be very happy running MorphOS and BeOS on the same platform

v 0.2€
by oGALAXYo on Fri 10th Oct 2003 09:31 UTC
Video Drivers
by John Blink on Fri 10th Oct 2003 09:58 UTC

Eugenia wrote:
Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free".

She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers.

Plus Darwin is a very modular kernel, I do not know what sound card Genesi use in Pegasos. But if there is a linux driver you can easily modify it to work well with the modular Darwin kernel.

Just a question can you provide a link to the genesi website showing us the target market of Pegasos together with MorphOS.

Apple suing
by John Blink on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:03 UTC

Sven writes...
Apple has sued for similar themes and other such flimsy things in the past, you can bet they would sue for anything meaningfull you do on top of Darwin, apart from simply running an X server and some common desktop environment which will be more work to support anyway.

So why don't they sue for the MorphOS GUI, don't tell me that it can be changed, I already know that. So can GNOME.

But I should say I think MorphOS would probably have a more responsive UI than GNOME+Xfree+Darwin.

Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on providing drivers for peripherals.

Is that so hard.

@John Blink
by Anonymous on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:07 UTC

> Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would
> have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the
> kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI
> and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on
> providing drivers for peripherals.

Because you don't understand MorphOS's philosophy and concept.

Weird ideas about darwin
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:11 UTC

Eugenia:
I can't understand how you are thinking, what would the reason be to use darwin? only to be special? what's so good about that?

macos x already IS darwin based and has a special gui, do the world need a macos x wannabe but just with less features? I don't think so.

You are also talking about modifying kde and gnome on darwin to ones special likeing, why not just modify them for linux in that case since atleast then you would be able to run regular linux apps. Darwin would only screw things up, i don't think it's such a great kernel anyway.

QNX
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:14 UTC

Btw, if someone feel an urge for a special unix why not just use QNX then it's ported?

Re: @John Blink By Anonymous
by John Blink on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:18 UTC

Because you don't understand MorphOS's philosophy and concept.

Please enlighten me.

Re: Re: @John Blink By Anonymous
by oGALAXYo on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:32 UTC

> Please enlighten me.

First of all excuse for not having mentioned my nick. I hit submit without verifying that.

Well I don't know whether you know the AmigaOS from former times. Maybe you had one and played some games on it. MorphOS from idea is quite similar to what the AmigaOS was in former times. MorphOS is not yet another Windowmanager ontop of a Unixish Kernel. E.g. boot Darwin, load X11 (or framebuffer) and then put some Amiga look stuff ontop of it (or alternative run GNOME on it). This would entirely dump the idea of what Amiga was and I recommend you to read what MorphOS is from the PegasosPPC page:

http://www.pegasosppc.com/operating_systems.php

Please click and read the 'MorphOS in detail' PDF file. The entire concepts of AmigaOS are different e.g. managing of devices, managing of libraries, mimetypes, settings etc. the entire look and feel, the core, the philosophy and so on. If we use yet another Unixish core then it wouldn't make much difference using Linux or something similar at the end.

Re: graphical drivers.
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:43 UTC

> She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers.

Well, as someone who has written XFree86 driver code, ans a member of the XFree86 project, i understand perfectly the issues at work here.

Fact is, XFree86 provides good 2D accelerated drivers, but not 3D drivers, nor good Video (as in mpeg and such) drivers, at least for ATI.

For ATI, the Video drivers are provided by the Gatos project, which don't has (yet ?) information on the newer models, and for 3D Drivers, it is provided by the DRI project, which uses a linux kernel module to enable the dma engine and some other stuff. I don't think this kernel module has been ported to Darwin yet.

Furthermore, the DRI currently hasn't information about the newer ATI cards (Radeon 9500 and up) and thus there is no accelerated 3D driver for them. ATI provide their proprietary 3D drivers, but these are right now only built for x86. I believe that Genesi might be able to convince them to build powerpc versions (a minority of a minority), but i seriously doubt that they would go to the length to build darwin versions (a minority of a minority of a minority), and you cannot even rely on Apple stuff, since Apple does not provide these for Darwin, and since the XFree86 driver and Apple driver use two different code bases. And graphic card vendors usually only consider plateforms with 100 000+ installed base as the minimum needed to attract their attention.

So, is there something still you think i am missing, or is my position clarified.

comments until post 30
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 10:47 UTC

Pete:
"Though, if I had to run another OS on a PPC, for the moment I'd choose Linux. Why? Simple reason, IBM. If I wanted to run Java; use their JVM. Potentially other enterprise software such as DB2, Websphere etc could run on Pegasos Linux. This differentiates Linux from a hobby OS.
Don't count on Sun/IBM/Apple releasing Java for Darwin."

Java is beeing ported to the MorphOS as we speach.

--

Anyone:
Please hack some patches for MacOS X which make it run on the Pegasos =D

--

Sven:
"And if you plan on putting Gnome on Darwin, you could as well put it on top of Linux or on top of Solaris or HPUX for that matter."

Solaris for PPC would be cool, but I doubt we'll see it. Nice that they changed their opinions and keeped on developing it for the x86 thought.

--

Eugenia:
"Are you telling me that Apple has a driver problem? You forget what a Platform is. YOU control the platform, the way Apple does its own. If Darwin can't have "enough drivers", what makes you think that MorphOS can???"

Apple doesn't need to support many gfx adapters since they just bundle geforce4 and ati radeon with their hardware, and that's it.
MorphOS got a better change to get decent drivers and programs than various open source oses simply because it's an propietary os. If you are doing stuff like that for an open source os you give away your specs, ip and company "secrets" away to anyone, and some companies doesn't want to do that so they feel much more secure in the case of a closed source os.

"Huh? Who talked about Quartz? Have you any idea what Darwin is? Your Darwin would run on XFree my friend! All graphics drivers, all Gnomes and KDEs, are all already there "for free". Darwin is a unix, it is a FreeBSD+Mach."

You have no idea what you are talking about, to begin with the drivers might actually be part of quartz and not the darwin kernel, and darwin can never "run on xfree" since xfree is the toll which makes the graphical magic on top of whatever kernel you are using. Kde and Gnome doesn't make drivers, they are desktop environments based on the toolkits QT and GTK which are there to make it easier for developers to make a consistant look and easier to code graphical applications.

"EXACTLY why I said that you need INNOVATION and DIFFERENTIATION. This is where your engineering will go, NOT in trying to port KDE and Gnome. These are already ported!"

They DO engineering, a motherboard and an os to begin with, makeing a theme for gnome isn't engineering.

"And so your Darwin would be. Why an non-Amiga person would like to purchase Pegasos and work with the crashing and under-featured MorphOS? I don't get it, I am sorry."

Why would they use Darwin without apps even if it had gnome then they could use linux and get more software support? and as sven said just add a theme for gnome in that case.

"No, the incentive is to actually excite x86 users with the unique Darwin (that's for PC users who can't afford Macs or can't install Darwin on x86 (it is a b*tch to install it on x86)), not Mac users. It works the other way around."

Why on earth would you run darwin on x86? The cool thing is macos x, not the weird kernel mixture.

Comments on post 31-45
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:11 UTC

sasquatch666:
I agree with you at 110% on Zeta for Pegasos, that would be awesome, the question is if Yellowtab is intrested, they should be since you got a much better chance to succed with an alternative os on the PPC platform than on x86 simply because 99.5% of the x86 people will end up using windows in the end anyway. It doesn't matter which os is available and which one they have installed on their machines, sooner or later they need an application which requires windows and that's the things which forces them all back to it all the time.
On PPC on the other side there is no Windows, and all other oses got a decent chance.
Regarding shipping the Pegasos2 is supposed to start shipping at the 15 October, for a price of 299 euro together with a 600MHz G3 or 499 euro with a 1GHz G4, this includes MorphOS and the superbundle.
Owners of the Pegasos1 are supposed to be able to upgrade to the peg2 for a price of 200 euro, and their old Pegasos1 boards will be available for developers and others which just want a simple test ride for only 99 euro.

--

oGALAXYo:
For some reason KDE always seems so much better then gnome no matter who talks, less layers, less languages, easier apis and so on. Would be intresting to hear why you are codeing for gnome instead thought, but we can take that personally =)
I also belive that QNX Photon as gui on top of neutrino must be way more effecient than some program on top of 3-4 layers which in their turn is on top of gtk which is on top of 1-2 layers more on top of xfree86 on top of linux.

--

John Blink:
"She is correct here, you argument about drivers does not hold. Because that community (the linux one that you say would provide better drivers for PPC) has already provided for graphics drivers in Xfree86. Xfree86 is where you will get your graphics drivers. "

Please do understand that the XFree86 drivers generally SUCK, that's why people beg for nvidia and ati to release drivers of their own.

"So why don't they sue for the MorphOS GUI, don't tell me that it can be changed, I already know that. So can GNOME."

The MorphOS gui is supposed to look like a fresh version of AmigaOS, not MacOS. Only think it has in common with MacOSX is the bar, but many had a startmenu before MacOSX so i wish them good luck on that topic.

"Why not put MorphOS GUI on top of Darwin, and then you would have to worry about kernel development. You can leave the kernel and UNIX base to Apple, and Genesi can work on the UI and API's, while the OpenSource community can work on providing drivers for peripherals."

They already have the Quark kernel which is modern enough, they have made an A-box for it so you can run Amiga applications, and much other work the get MorphOS, why on earth would they change that to some weird open-source kernel on which they can't decide there they would like to go? Do you think it would have been possible to make it easy to run amiga systemfriendly programs on the darwin kernel? I think not. You are all so owned by the gnu zealots and hype.

This is ridiculous
by stew on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:26 UTC

I simply can't understand why everyone's picking on Zeta and YellowTab. What is wrong with them?

Zeta looks like the best BeOS you can get at the moment. OBOS and BlueOS are still in the experimental state, R5 is outdated, DevEd and Max are build on R5 PE and therefore also build on outdated code (e.g. NetServer). Dano is illegal and unstable. According to the reviews, Zeta provides a stable Dano base including BONE and GobeProductive as well as support for modern hardware. What's wrong with that?

About YT not having the source code: What a stupid claim is that? How could they possibly add additional window decors to the app server if they didn't have the source code for it?

Re: This is ridiculous
by stew on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:29 UTC

Dang...wrong window. Mods, feel free to delete my post above.

Re: Aliquis and open source drivers.
by Sven Luther on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:34 UTC

> Please do understand that the XFree86 drivers generally SUCK, that's why people beg for nvidia and ati to release drivers of their own.

No, that is wrong. First, closed source XFree86 drivers generally suck, are a bitch to install and cannot respond fast enough to the quick development step of the rest of the software and adapt to the wide variety of kernel/X server version that user may possibly run.

When doing user support on debian-user-french, the most X related questions are from people who have trouble getting the nvidia drivers to work, and rarely with the real X stuff.

Finally, If people clamor for drivers from ATI or NVidia, it is only because those refuse to give out the specs for their boards to open source developers.

v @aliquis
by oGALAXYo on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:47 UTC
Picking on zeta?
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:47 UTC

What? I saw in a later comment that you posted on the wrong forum, anyway, we in this forum both wanted to have zeta running on the pegasos and thought it would be great. Only concern the other one had was if they really got the source code and would have any troubles to port it or not, but i think they have it so i don't see any problems with that.

sven:
I wasn't talking on a political/idealogical/convenice point of view, I was only talking performance vise.
And i know they refuse to give out the specs, and that's why the free drivers suck, I never said it was the developers fault.

QNX
by Ludovic Hirlimann on Fri 10th Oct 2003 11:58 UTC

Where can i fond more information on the QNX port to the genesis ?

--
http://perso.hirlimann.net/~ludo/blog/

Re: Zeta
by Ludovic Hirlimann on Fri 10th Oct 2003 12:02 UTC

For zeta to run on genesis , Yellowtab needs the BeOS that imo they don't have (they'd have fixed the 1 Giog issue if they had the kernel sources). Since beos never had a HAL (hence the Pios project that never got finished), Zeta does not have a HAL and potring it to genesis is *impossible*. OpenBeOS being writtent from scratch and already having pcc support from newos is a better choice for a brigth PPC beos future (but with no apps, because I don't think openbeos will use Apple proprietary binary format used in beos ppc).

--
http://perso.hirlimann.net/~ludo/blog/

Re: Zeta
by Roberto J. Dohnert on Fri 10th Oct 2003 13:00 UTC

<< For zeta to run on genesis , Yellowtab needs the BeOS that imo they don't have (they'd have fixed the 1 Giog issue if they had the kernel sources). Since beos never had a HAL (hence the Pios project that never got finished), Zeta does not have a HAL and potring it to genesis is *impossible*. OpenBeOS being writtent from scratch and already having pcc support from newos is a better choice for a brigth PPC beos future (but with no apps, because I don't think openbeos will use Apple proprietary binary format used in beos ppc).>>


That would all depend, first let me start off by saying that I dont know if Yellowtab has the kernel sources or not nor do i care, but sometimes you have to let some bugs go for the time being because If you try to fix some you could break something else that is more important so I wouldnt say whether yes or no to the question of if they have the kernel sources, but the question is; Are their engineers knowledgable enough to fix the problem?

Sure, Linux, or BSD, or Darwin is -at this time- a lot more advanced than the alpha (quiet stable for an alpha OS without memory protection...) MorphOS...

But why AGAIN and AGAIN going the easy way and building a "new" OS over an unix kernel (Darwin may be different than Unix, Linux or BSD, it is still based on UNIX) ?!

I'm happy they have chosen to develop and support MorphOS.
I like MorphOS because it is light, powerfull, fast, EASY, logic, simple... in a word: it isn't UNIX.

I think MorphOS has its place. People start to use Linux in embedded such as cellphones,... because there is nothing else than WinCE and Linux. MorphOS, just like AmigaOS,can be used easier and with less ressources than *any* current available OS. And seeing that almost every "new" OS is based on the same old technology called Unix (in opposition to Multics), it will remain the only one for a long long time...

Now, if you don't like Windows, you will have the CHOICE to use something else than Unix: MorphOS !

Regards,
Leo.

v gnome vs kde
by aliquis on Fri 10th Oct 2003 14:11 UTC
Sound Drivers
by stew on Fri 10th Oct 2003 16:25 UTC

Plus Darwin is a very modular kernel, I do not know what sound card Genesi use in Pegasos. But if there is a linux driver you can easily modify it to work well with the modular Darwin kernel.

How that? Judging from my previous experience in writing sound drivers for BeOS and OS X, using Linux and ALSA source code as reference for the BeOS drivers, I would certainly not use the word "easily" when speaking of porting drivers from Linux to Darwin.

Like all sub-sites that will fall under the Phoenix Developer Consortium umbrella, this one has been built around Felix Schwarz's MorphOS Developer Connection codebase, which will continually expand to incorporate any needed features. All ___ Developer Connections and download and Pegasos community resources under the Phoenix umbrella will soon share a common login and substantial mirroring and load sharing.

Much thanks to Felix, Genesi's Linux man Sven Luther, and graphician/webdesigner André Siegel to get so much done so quickly! Many others are contributing to handle legal and licensing issues - as it all comes together the organizational approach will be to quickly direct anyone to the proper areas and supply needed communication channels through and across - this becomes like one-stop-shopping.

I should mention that Pegasos download sites will become "Superbundles" for all the various OSes running on Genesi's Pegasos wherever possible, and that we are going to bring all accredited Pegasos User Groups (PUGs) into the mix by providing any additional resources they should desire - along with a common "umbrella" gateway with channels to allow all PUGs to share ideas, information, promotions, tradeshow/presentation resources, and to work on common organizational concerns.

We have an incredible array of partners and friends gathering to bring vitality and support to the Pegasos platform - which indeed IS a CONCEPT! : }

<--greenboy---<<<<
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]

Re: QNX
by greenboy on Fri 10th Oct 2003 17:26 UTC

> Ludovic Hirlimann :
>Where can i fond more information on the QNX port to the genesis ?

Ludovic, QNX has been ported to the Pegasos I by QNX. Now QNX awaits Pegasos II hardware to do further work. The Pegasos II becomes available October 15. At that time QNX will finish porting and begin QA. At this time there in no information other than what is above that is publicly available.

But later, expect joint press releases.
 

<--greenboy---<<<<
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
 
 
 

For further information ...
by oGALAXYo on Fri 10th Oct 2003 17:40 UTC

... about QNX porting status consult irc.freenode.net #qnx and ask 'cdm' (Chris McKillop).

Darwin support
by Anonymous on Sat 11th Oct 2003 00:06 UTC

IMHO Pegasos competition are the via cpu + mobo combo's and i wouldn't be surprised if a g3 outperforms a C3 so playing a divx in real time is possible with a Pegasos. Which would make it the ideal livingroom media box. The people who use it as a media box don't care what OS it runs but they probably know a linux distribution a lot better than Darwin

the Amiga and it's many children
by Erik on Sat 11th Oct 2003 00:30 UTC

*looks at the screenshots*

It's beautiful.

*wipes off a single, tiny tear*

I'm a fan of the Amiga and it's children (I consider Genesi/MorphOS, AmigaInc/OS4, and AROS to be "children of the Amiga", "The Amiga", as far as I'm concerned, is/are the Commodore Amiga and the machines made in the 80's and early 90's).

That being said, those screenshots are, just... astounding. I'd love to get the chance to run this OS, but can't spare $1,000 for the board just to test it, and I doubt there will be any demos in my hometown anytime soon (Honolulu, Hawai'i).

Is there a modern graphics renderer behind that magic, such as something that can do for example, (graphical) transparency, network transparency, the kind of vector scaling that Quartz can do, and so on?

Love the hardware, love the (look of) the software. The only Amiga spawn that I can play with now realistically is AROS though.

You know, I feel a rant coming on. Uh oh... *eyes glaze over*

You know, I have a complaint. Many of the modern Amiga fans I hear from complain and complain every time someone, for example, AmigaInc, or Genesi, tries something new. Genesi's use of the A-Box and Q-Box technology is very interesting, as is AmigaInc's purchase of Tao/Intent technology and their work on that. AROS is the worst offender in a way. In it's day, the Amiga was all about innovation, but all modern projects either try to simply make a perfect copy of what was (AROS, UAE) with only enough new ideas to make it run, or every time they try something innovative, there are cries and gnashing of teeth from the "faithful" about how it just isn't Amiga-like. Look, if it's a perfect copy of anything, it isn't Amiga-like -- because the Amiga was, at it's time, a plastic box full of innovations (true innovations) as well as good ideas bought or borrowed from wherever. *gets on his high horse* in MY day -- if someone in the Amiga world mentioned copying someone (say, f'r'instance, the PC) THEN there would be cries and gnashing of teeth! There have been many, many arguments over if or when the Amiga died. I say it died, not when Commodore went out of business, not when Amiga got swapped around like a bad case of VD, but basically on the day the Amiga 600 was invented. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! *eyes return to normal*

Erik

Re: the Amiga and it's many children
by Nate Downes on Sat 11th Oct 2003 01:57 UTC

Um.. the price of a Pegasos II motherboard starts at $299, not $1000.

However, very good sentiment.

Opensource community cares only about Linux? LMFAO!
by dpi on Sat 11th Oct 2003 06:11 UTC

"But who cares about the "open source community"? The open source community today pretty much only cares about Linux. Linux, linux, linux... The ex-Amiga people though won't mind the restriction in the license. These ex-Amiga people are your MorphOS developers, not the "open source community". "

Wrong. So wrong. First of all what's 'THE opensource community'? I think there are multiple communities, there's not one 'closedsource community' either. Not everybody involved with opensource shares the same interest. That alone makes your statement bull.

Onwards, Linux is only a kernel. 'THE opensource community' you're talking about doesn't adore only Linux, nor Linux only. Like i said, people have different interests. There are people who use FreeBSD and MS Windows, there are people who only use OpenBSD, there are people who prefer GNU/Hurd, there are people who hack NetBSD on different archs and also own an Amiga, and finally lots of other possibilities, i'm sure i'm forgetting a ton of OSes, let alone forgetting individual projects. Another funny thing is, Linus said he wants fair competition. Oh well, FWIW, that ideal drives directly against "Linux, Linux, Linux".

My third problem with your opinion is that you state ex-Amiga people ''don't care about the license''. Perhaps some wouldn't. I think everybody in this world should care about a license, and foresee what consequences it has. Think before you do. Back when Amiga was popular, there were no open source alternatives for desktop users. Hell, PC's and home-end users weren't even popular. Times changed. License attitudes changed. So this comparison is incorrect.

Your opinion is full of stereotypes and fallacies.

Thanks to opensource software, closedsource software has to become a lot better to be able to compete with opensource software, because good opensource has 2 big advantages: free as in speech and free as in beer. MorphOS is *NEITHER*. The same power which is centralized with companies such as Microsoft is what these centralized cells want: money. If not, then you should do the gift economy thing (which opensource imo is about, too).

Oops, forgot something (request: preview button)
by dpi on Sat 11th Oct 2003 06:20 UTC

"Thanks to opensource software, closedsource software has to become a lot better to be able to compete with opensource software, because good opensource has 2 big advantages: free as in speech and free as in beer."

This is where closedsource software tries to protect theirselves against competition. Patents, DMCA, lawsuits, FUD, and all kind of other stuff.

Compare RealPLayer and their HelixCommunity, which they call 'opensource', with Xiph/Ogg Vorbis. Theora isn't ready yet so don't mind that as for now.

Player/server: GNU GPL vs. centralized opensource license.
Codec (!): BSD license patent-free vs. closed source & patented

The difference is clear, the power is clear, the centralization is clear. Like a charm. Who supports innovation? Who gets money and power?

Personally, if MorphOS would ever become opensource, i'd buy PPC hardware in the future. At least one fast box from my spare money, possibly more, and if i liked it i'd recommend it.

This debate about different operating systems is pointless. Genesi is only producing 500 MoB for the 15 of
October release date (to be followed by a 1st commercial production run of 5000 at some unspecified date in
the future). Without being able to purchase the PegaSoS, Genesi can claim to run Windoze & Mac OsX as well;
who is there to dispute them when there is no hardware available to verify their claims?
That being said, I would like to purchase a PegaSoS as soon as possible, since it doesn't appear likely that
Hyperion will release AmigaOS 4.0 any time soon (otherwise I might be tempted to get an AmigaOne -- which
by the way, can be found in a complete system at Software Hut). Do you hear me Genesi? The clock is ticking on your opportunity to make some money because I'm certain that there are more Amiga users that feel as I do.
Once AmigaOS 4.0 is released, your window to the market is going to start closing! Genesi has published a list of compatible
hardware, but there are several omissions that would make it difficult for even an Electronics Engineer such as
myself to build their own system; for example: what specific power supply model would they recommend to
hook up to their product? Keyboard? mouse? Everything that they did publish is of course good to know, but
a little (inadequate) knowledge is a dangerous thing. Let's leave the debate about which OS is best for the
PegaSOS until such time as complete systems are available, & in adequate numbers so that everyone that wants
one can buy one (I'm willing to assume more debt, so price is not an issue here).
Jim Steichen, author of AmigaTalk (aka StychoKiller)

RE: Where's the hardware?
by greenboy on Sat 11th Oct 2003 10:06 UTC

Jim,

AmigaOS4 has little to do with Genesi's future vitality one way or another. The roadmap we've been working from is NOT designed around a miniscule (yet still familiar) market that is unlikely to expand much - thus the Genesi interest and support for multiple OSes, OEM-driven projects, industrial and embedded markets, content communities, etc.

I realize not all of this has been mentioned in this thread, but in "amiga community" forums Genesi has had an open dialog about this roadmap for many months.

Also note that Pegasos resellers are ready and willing to provide complete systems and offer advice for components - as are current users and developers. As I finish with the last of my current Phoenix developer-seeding offers that put hardware into the hands of those who wish to make things happen, I am preparing to sell 100 Pegasos I boards (that have been traded in by developers and users toward Pegasos II boards) for 99 Euros.

I've already got quite a list of developers who are going to take advantage of the hardware soon-to-be available, and the support that comes with it. In some cases I will be recommending free systems to developers who wish to do major projects.
 

<--greenboy---<<<<
coordinator & facilitator-at-large
Phoenix Developer Consortium [http://phinixi.com]
 
 
 

Operating Systems for Pegasos
by Daniel Miller on Sat 11th Oct 2003 10:10 UTC

Jim Steichen, Author of AmigaTalk says:

> Without being able to purchase the PegaSoS, Genesi can
> claim to run Windoze & Mac OsX as well; who is there to
> dispute them when there is no hardware available to
> verify their claims?

Well wait, there are about 600 machines out there so you can get the independent verification you are talking about, and then Genesi intends to get another 500 out shortly. I personally witnessed OS X running on a Pegasos via Mac on Linux. This was at CES back in January, and I've seen it demoed since as well. I read a detailed review of a not current version of Windows running in Bochs emulator in MorphOS, so that is on the level too, but that is just straight emulation and Genesi does not claim to "run Windoze." And really, who the heck would want to buy a Pegasos to do that?!

Now QNX for Pegasos is an interesting case. We haven't seen much independently confirmed on that, and people are asking about it. My understanding is that such a QNX version is under development, and in an advanced stage, but still not ready for public consumption at this time.

MorphOS gets a bum rap sometimes. My personal experience is that it got a lot more stable with v. 1.4, which was surprising considering that 1.4 introduced all sorts of new features such as the JIT, Trance. People who knock MorphOS should make sure they have the latest version. It got a lot better. MorphOS is the standard for Pegasos and people tend to expect more from it than the other OS projects for Pegasos, which are cut some slack for being in developmental or experimental stages. So MorphOS takes flak from some Pegasos users which is fair enough, but it also getting good reviews from others. And it is improving.

free as in speach and beer?
by aliquis on Sat 11th Oct 2003 16:47 UTC

dpi:
for the moment morphos IS free as in beer

.
by dpi on Sat 11th Oct 2003 20:15 UTC

Cool. Where can i download it?

Where's the hardware?
by hgm on Sun 12th Oct 2003 09:15 UTC

Dear Jim,
The train has left for a while and you are still at the station crying,
shouting:"Wait for us we have better stuff in about 2 years time"
Best wishes to you
regs
hgm

download morphos
by aliquis on Mon 13th Oct 2003 12:18 UTC

dpi: It comes with the board, and then you can sign up to a mailing list which gives you login to genesis ftpsite there you have both morphos and the superbundle.

PegXLin
by bbrv on Mon 13th Oct 2003 17:49 UTC

PegXLin, the PegasosPPC Linux distro has been awarded as of 12 October 2003 "Ready for IBM Technology" logo approval. You will find PegXLin now listed in the IBM Global Business Directory.

R&B