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you could like seel this review it is so great! I'm sure applied to the right equation this could solve world peace and feed the hungry!

This review was both insightful and informative. Although I was definitely going to check out Fedora, I have a little taste of what I am in store for. I think anyone who is even thinking about giving up on Redhat should read this before they make their final decision. Oh and trying Fedora out would probably be a good idea too.

During the beta there were several third-party yum repositories available. By adding something like

[livna-stable]
name=Fedora Compatible Packages (stable)
baseurl=http://rpm.livna.org/redhat/$releasever/$basearch/yum/stable

to your /etc/yum.conf you are then able to install the mp3 plugin, mplayer etc. with "yum install xmms-mp3" and so on.

Right now there doesn't seem to be a complete repository yet for FC1. But at least freshrpms.net and livna.org are building their yum repositories right now. Freshrpms already have some packages available, but not all. With RH9 I used up2date, apt-get and rpmfind.net, with Fedora I've only needed to use yum. That's a big plus IMO.

Also, Fedora installed flawlessly on my ICH5 based Intel Serial ATA motherboard, first distro to do so without putting up a fight.

Nice to see that your first concern for your new **SERVER** toy is its ability to play mp3... ;-) *shudder*

ACPI available in fedora by zapping it into /etc/grub.conf at the end of your 'kernel' line - eg:
kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi
becomes:
kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-20.9 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi acpi=on

Red.

Is it just me or does YUM suck compared to apt4rpm.
After I installed Fedorra, i ran a few different yum commands ( after reading the man) and it kept wanting to download all the headers of available packages on the end server.

Fair enough.

But why a seaparate connection for every header. Why not one file with all the info.

I think I must be missing something.....anyone care to enlighten me.

( No I don't use enlightenment )

I don't think it's good advice for new users to install everything, at least from a secutrity point of view, as it enables a lot extra services. "Personal Desktop" and "Workstation" have very sane defaults and people can add packages later if they need them.

MP3 and other multimedia packages are already available at Livna http://rpm.livna.org/ and a nice HOWTO for extra apt/yum repositories is here http://www.xades.com/proj/fedora_repos.html

Any chance of some screenshots for the new graphical boot?

>>Nice to see that your first concern for your new **SERVER** toy is its ability to play mp3... ;-) *shudder*

You are such and old school lamo its not even funny.

Hello,

for me i was again not able to get online with Fedora!

I configured my dsl connection, it says activated but i could't still surf the web or ping websites.

I tried it at least now for 4 hours....
I alos tried it with the console and /sbin/adsl-setup.
This seems to work...but, look here...

[root@localhost]# /sbin/adsl-status /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-ppp0
Note: You have enabled demand-connection; adsl-status may be inaccurate.
adsl-status: Link is up and running on interface ppp0
ppp0 Protokoll:Punkt-zu-Punkt Verbindung
inet Adresse:2x7.2x2.2x6.1x9 P-z-P:2x7.5.98.1x2 Maske:255.255.255.255
UP PUNKTZUPUNKT RUNNING NOARP MULTICAST MTU:1492 Metric:1
RX packets:17 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:17 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
Kollisionen:0 Sendewarteschlangenlänge:3
RX bytes:1426 (1.3 Kb) TX bytes:1682 (1.6 Kb)

[root@localhost]# ping www.redhat.com
ping: unknown host www.redhat.com

And i couldn't surf the web...
I have no idea what i could try anymore...

Everything seems to be working smoothly with the exception of two areas. First, the tsclient does not seem to work. It segfaults everytime it is run. That never happened during the betas. The other is CodeWeaver's Crossover stuff. It appears to work, but I cannot get anything to install. Is this a GCC version problem?

Any ideas?

Thanks.....

You don't get it, I fear...

Rhythmbox and XMMS can't play MP3 files, not because Fedora packagers are stupid, but because it is **ILLEGAL** (in the USA) to ship MP3 support in any distribution without paying for it.

As Fedora is still related to Redhat (which is a USA-based company), they can't ship MP3 support out of the box. It has been explained thousands of times on various places though...

Now, if Gentoo ships MP3 support out of the box, great for you ! But if you're based in the USA, keep in mind that you're breaking the (stupid) law of your country by playing MP3 audio files.

For a few versions now, Red Hat has shipped without support for a few media formats. This has been done for legal reasons only; it wasn't an accident or mistake, so there's absolutely no reason to worry that other packages are going to be missing 'necessary' plugins. Additionally, the difficulty of fixing this problem is slight enough that it isn't much of an issue at all.

Also, as a fellow Gentoo user, I think it's more than a little misleading to say that things 'just work.' Things 'just work' if you happen to have your make.conf set up properly. Otherwise you have to wait another god-knows-how-long for your package to compile again. And there isn't really any 'out of the box,' unless you're talking about a GRP install, and that has its own problems. Fedora is a distribution for people who don't have the time or interest to do something like build a Gentoo system, and for what it is, it works fantastically well. A few clicks and 45 minutes later, you have a (almost) fully functional Linux distribution with tons of software.

And by the way, the fact that Thompson and co. claimed that they wouldn't sue anyone for using their patent on MP3 playback doesn't mean that it is legal. It just means that they *claim* they won't sue you. Nothing more.

Dude, I use gentoo on my main station and yes it is good, put I also play around with RH/SuSE & Slack for the most part so here goes:

What part of mp3 and other parts like xine aren't included because of LEGAL reasons does NO one seem to get? Why on every single review from RH8-FC1 people complain about "theres no mp3 support", HELLO, do we really have to explain this over and over?

Come on people lets stop complaing about something that will NEVER change. The .rpms are out there, if you want it do it your self. If you use Gentoo or Slack, doing it yourselve isn't all that hard is it? Grabbing a rpm and installing it or even doing it from src? If your Elite enough to use "emerge" you should be able to run "rpm -ivh" or "./configure make make install" right? So stop complaing!

>> if you have Fedora, try this - It's the ability to change your X screen resolution without having to restart X.

Niall, does this change the desktop resolution aswell as the screen resolution, like you can do under KDE in SuSE 8.2 (and presumably SuSE 9.0)? (i.e. it isn't just a GUI for CTRL-ALT-NUMPLUS/NUMMINUS)

Also, which window managers / desktop environments does it work with?

TIA

I am not overly impressed by it. I have used fedora test1-test3. RPMS are still a problem. For the Home user... oh wait.. what did the CEO of redhat say?

besides the flaming , i do have a point. What makes redhat great it was the innovator of distros. RPMs have made life easier, in that fact, RPMS are now out of control. RPM Hell Anyone? Debs are not as much, but we still have a problem with software compatiblity between distros, even between dot releases. I think we need to build a better compatiblity before it starts hurting the community more. Before saying "debian has the best package manager" I will remind you of the fact, that software vendors consider debian the HARDEST to build a binary for, because the wide variety of a debian computers.

flame back on, redhat can proceed to die a quick death, hello to novell linux

There wont be dvd or mp3 playback in fedora for legel reasons as someone has already pointed out. So how about people stop in every simple review to give this 3 paragraphs!!

Anyway, if you actually want all the 'non-free' packages to be installable, then just use this repository:
http://rpm.livna.org/

"As regards xine (which I did attempt to install) your results may vary, but it complained about xine-libs dependency problems (wanted GLUT and SPEEK, and in turn GLUT wanted OPENGL which wanted......), so I gave up."

The quote above is exactly why I gave up on RPM based distributions. I, like Mystilleef above, also use Gentoo. I've never had a dependency issue, and as he/she said, "It just works."

The closest thing I have found to Gentoo's Portage system in a binary-based distro is Debian's apt or Arch's pacman. Both of these systems have very good dependency checks. RPM is such a terrible system for packaging software.

Another thing I hate about RPM based distros is that there is no facility built into the distro to install software automatically. You always have to manually download or mount CDs to install software. With Debian, Gentoo, and Arch a simple command in a shell will automatically calculate dependencies, download the necessary packages, and install them.

>> if you have Fedora, try this - It's the ability to change your X screen resolution without having to restart X.

Niall, does this change the desktop resolution aswell as the screen resolution, like you can do under KDE in SuSE 8.2 (and presumably SuSE 9.0)? (i.e. it isn't just a GUI for CTRL-ALT-NUMPLUS/NUMMINUS)

Also, which window managers / desktop environments does it work with?

TIA

When you change the resolution, it changes the desktop resolution as well as the screen resolution. Like on Suse 9.0.

I have only tried it on GNOME/Metacity though.

Well i installed all the redhat versions up to 9 on my laptop and all worked with my xircom pcmcia card.

Fedora however fails to let me work with my xircom card.
with ifconfig it let me see my mac adress and an ipadress but no go

A little frustrating imho

About the "RPM hell":

Never ever compare apples to oranges please.

Saying that using RPM to install programs can result in dependency hell is RIGHT. But saying that it's RPM's fault is WRONG.

Here is how it works:

RPM is comparable to DPKG. It's just a tool to install 1 or more packages without trying to resolve any dependency. So, it can work but most of the time it fails.

Have you tried to install a Debian package using dpkg ? Good luck...

Now, Debian has APT, which is a dependency resolver for Debian packages. Until now, Redhat didn't come with any dependency resolver by default. But since Fedora Core, it's not the case anymore. Fedora comes with YUM, which is comparable to APT but works with RPMs. You can also install APT for RPMs if you prefer.

What does that mean ?

It simply means that you now can install packages on Fedora using the following command:

yum install blah

And you can updgrade a package using:

yum upgrade blah

So, please, no more bashing about how Gentoo and Debian are so much better for installing packages ! The debate is now officially over as Fedora has caught up.

"""
I begin to appreciate the distribution I use, Gentoo. What? Rhythmbox doesn't stream radio stations??? :shocked: I didn't need to fiddle with *anything* repeat *anything* to get radio stations working here.
"""

And, pray tell, how many DAYS did it take you to install Gentoo? I think I'll trade some time here and there for a program I want to install rather than the regular Gentoo install...

Step 1) Download some stuff, run a couple commands, let it compile overnight.

Step 2) Repeat, ad nauseum.

Another thing I hate about RPM based distros is that there is no facility built into the distro to install software automatically. You always have to manually download or mount CDs to install software. With Debian, Gentoo, and Arch a simple command in a shell will automatically calculate dependencies, download the necessary packages, and install them.

Funny, apt for rpm does that on my redhat boxes... and YUM works too... And Fedora has them built in....

To release a 'community version' of their distro as a testing ground for new stuff to be put into the commercial version(s) of Redhat. In other words, let the 'community' do all the testing and hard work for you - that's brilliant!
And I say that with no sarcasm whatsoever. Hell, if I were a hardware vendor and wanted my stuff to work in Linux, I wouldn't even bother writing drivers for it - just release the technical information needed to write a decent driver and let hackers do it for me. Afterall, if they're willing to do all that hard work for free, who am I do deny them ?

what version of Python is Fedora using ... ? 2.3 any chance?

Why did i dump windows/gentoo in favour of fedora?

Ease of use. I get a distro that has almost everything I need. What I can't get, I get of Livna or other repo's. I run a LAMP server/workstation, and use software like XMMS to play mp3s, and other files. I watch DiVX and WMV media on totem (XINE) and mplayer.

The distro is *fast*. It beats Gentoo in terms of desktop speed/responsiveness/load times. No, don't argue. I have it in front of me.

Spend 15 minutes doing this:
1. Get the Livna config into your yum.conf (30 seconds)
2. yum update ( however long it takes to download the headers - 10 minutes on my relatively slow DSL connection )
3. yum install xmms-mp3 mplayer-gui totem

Now stop and think: how long would it take to get a comparable install of Windows XP?

Install Windows : an hour (don't lie to yourself)
Install applications and drivers : an hour to two hours.
Configure stuff : depends.

In that time, I've already started work on my next PHP based project, and am jamming to my favourite music.

If you start out being negative, you will not get very positive results. Sure, fedora needs more initial effort that Windows, but a damned lot less than other distro's. I also like that we're compliant with laws, be they stupid, or otherwise. I don't want legal nightmares later on. What happens if we include MP3 support and they sue for damages? Think a little. Just a *little*.
`
It helps. And please, do it _before_ you open your mouth.

binary is nicer to have. If i need two apps custom compiled, I'll hand compile them. I'd not want to compiled 3000 things for the sake of those two.

"called 'screen resolution' and this little application allows you to change resolution in real-time on your desktop without needing to restart x"

Wow. I'm underwhelmed.

Can someone please explain to me why changing X-resolution-on-the-fly is gushed over as being so great? It seems that every other review of a "new" distro stumbles across the "guess what! You can now change X-resolution on the fly!!" as though it's some brand new, never before conceived of feature.

Huh? What about the simple <ctrl><alt> +/- combo to change X resolutions "on the fly / without restarting X" that has been working for me since circa 1993 on my first Slackware box?

I must be missing something fundamental...

--d

You are simplifying things. Livna has given me a reason to take a close look at Fedora from my RH9 box.

However, I also have to install some commercial apps on my linux box. (Games mostly for my workstation but Netvault client and some other stuff for server clients depending on what they will be used for)

You also have to configure stuff for linux too.

I love linux. Right now is the first time in three years I have not worked off of a Linux workstation both at work and home.

However, let us please not overstate its strengths and such.

Yet, Seraph I am very glad it works so well for you and you have inspired me to try using Fedora once I get permission to put Linux on my laptop here at work.

And, pray tell, how many DAYS did it take you to install Gentoo? I think I'll trade some time here and there for a program I want to install rather than the regular Gentoo install...

Frankly, I can't remember. It's been many months ago. The basic installation must have taken 2-3 hours, if I'm not mistaken. I'm also glad I don't have download 700MB CD every few months to upgrade my system. But that's besides the point.

Step 1) Download some stuff, run a couple commands, let it compile overnight.

That's a shameful misconception.

Step 2) Repeat, ad nauseum.

Don't be silly. The fact that I can play radio stations, MP3, OGG, FLAC music format without the need to fiddle with anything is an excellent tradeoff for spending less than 2 minutes compiling Rhythmbox. In fact, while I was upgrading to Rhythmbox-0.5.4, I was listening to my favorite MP3s on Rhythmbox-0.5.3. No lost productivity whatsoever. Yeap, I couldn't even do that on Windows or Mac. But I digress again.

I just think it's silly to provide a music player without support for the basic or necessary plugins. I'd rather they didn't provide an music player at all then. It just creates a ridiculous image for Linux. Then you wonder why your favorite Apple/Windows zealot rants about things "Just working". The reviewer should have pointed out that this wasn't a flaw with Rhythmbox but rather Fedora's policy.

For more on the bluetooth support, see http://datadevil.papuaos.org/docs/bluetooth.php

The excitement is about the fact that until recently you could only do the following:

- change your resolution by modifying XF86Config and restarting X
- switch between configured resolutions using CTRL-ALT-+/-

That said, switching between resolutions didn't actually update your desktop's display. For example switching from 1024x768 to 800x600 resulting in _zooming_. But your desktop was bigger than your screen and you had to use your mouse to display some parts of your desktop that were "outside the screen".

Now, you can switch resolutions AND resize your desktop so that it feels the size of your screen (not more, not less). To do that, you previously had to edit your XF86Config and restart X, which is not necessary anymore.

If you don't see what I mean, just try it.

In fact, I'm not sure Windows comes with MP3 support. Last time I tried it, Windows 2000 couldn't play MP3 out of the box. You had to install Winamp or some similar software to play MP3 files. I might be wrong though...

Anyway, it _is_ possible to provide MP3 support out of the box. You (your OS' vendor) just have to pay for it.

If it's really available out of the box on Windows, that's because Microsoft accepted to pay for it.

Would you expect Redhat to pay for you to be able to listen to MP3 music on your free-of-charge iso download of Fedora Core ?

i was so hot for this release... i used redhat 8 and 9 exclusively, and recently i upgraded to severn 0.95, the latest beta release...

i downloaded fc1 and installed it on 2 computers:

p3 550, 384kb workstation. install hung at the end of the package installation. duh. install again, then it worked.

my compaq presario 2800 laptop (p4m 1500, 512 ram): tried to install, after selecting packages anaconda said that it could not transfer the installation image to the hard disk because there was not enough space... duh! install again, select "personal desktop" and did not change any selection. now it worked.

ok, so i thought, i just install the missing packages afterwards yand remove the stuff i don't want.

well, turned out that the redhat-package manager can't install any packages for me! it removes packages fine and it installs single packages... but it always fails when it has to solve dependencies and install more than 1 package...

so i had to yum the missing stuff... not good :-(

otherwise, i'll stick with fedora. it's very nice...

regards,
marillchen

"I don't think it's good advice for new users to install everything, at least from a secutrity point of view, as it enables a lot extra services. "Personal Desktop" and "Workstation" have very sane defaults and people can add packages later if they need them."

Actually none of the extra services are enabled by default. They are installed, but not turned on. I happen to agree with the author on this one, as he stated, it does prevent dependencie hell for the most part by going this route.

Does anyone know if Ximian Desktop will be available for Fedora? If not does that mean the only distro supported will be SuSE, or will Mandrake be added?

I just love to see people complain that Red Hat is "using" them as free testers. It's a fully functional OS, probably the best they've ever released, and it's all free software. Others, for example on the dedicated hosting forums out there, say "this is no way to treat your customers" -- yeah, giving them a free OS but changing its name! Oh no! And most of them have never paid Red Hat a cent in the first place, so they're not customers, they're leeches. I'm totally fed up with all this talk of jumping ship from Red Hat. Obviously they let the gravy train go too long, and the recipients have become belligerent ingrates.

See, if RedHat decided not to pursue the desktop market, they could have just said "For us, it doesn't make business sense to pursue that market, good luck to the others". But no, they had to poo-poo on Linux-on-desktop in general, to raze the ground in front of their competitors.

Let's see, who is trying to construct a coherent desktop Linux strategy? Lindows and Sun. These are the only companies that have a clue and a will to push Linux on the desktop. And RedHat HATES both of them. So, what does a RedHat exec do, when he his company leaves the Linux-for-desktop scene? Say "Linux on the desktop sucks, GO WITH WINDOEWS, FOLKS".

Yeah, RedHat looks more and more like Microsoft, and it even helps Microsoft.

I've used Gentoo quite extensively, and I'm sorry to say that it does NOT "just work" when compared to RedHat (and I assume Fedora Core). Want an example? If you're not exactly familiar with the inner workings of linux and what's needed to provide what, just try installing a base system and seeing where you end up. Hell, try INSTALLING the thing (gentoo's install, while original, is an adventure for anyone who's unseasoned). The first gentoo boot will dump you at the command prompt (assuming you get that far...you're a newbie, remember!). Now go on...emerge XFree86. Might wanna get a sandwich or something. Oh and before you go to bed, emerge kde. By tomorrow evening you should be in business. But wait...you didn't emerge freetype, did you? Now your fonts are crapola. Hey man that's fine. Just emerge freetype, re-emerge XFree86, and re-emerge KDE. Throw on a few extra apps for the functionality you want, add OpenOffice since it's the only reasonably-featured office suite around, and you should be in business within a half a week or so! I do speak from personal experience, by the way. This is exactly what I had to do when I did my first gentoo install, and it took about a week and a half of tweaking and fiddling to get my desktop to the point of a default Fedora install. Oh! Try this: yank your soundcard or NIC and replace it with a new one. Check out gentoo's reaction. Now recall, you're no linux pro. How ya gonna solve this one?

By contrast, Fedora core gives you beautiful fonts and a fully-functional system in 20 minutes and a few easy clicks. Wanna replace your soundcard or NIC? No problem! When you turn it on, it'll probe for new hardware and you'll be on your way again in no time. Not to mention automatic mounting of media as well as hotplug support (something which I never could get working with other distros, though they claim it's present). The media thing is a legal issue, and by no means is it a limitation of Fedora.

Now I'll grant you this. To the seasoned linux vet, Gentoo just can't be beat. Once you do get it up and running, it's smooth as silk. Probably the best distro I've used in my life. Portage is the slickest package manager I've ever seen. However, when my hard drive crapped out and I had to redo everything, I just didn't have the heart to go schlog through all those issues again. I've really developed an appreciation for the integration and automation that Fedora provides. It's a "get out of my way and let me work" philosophy.

for me, I bought a Gateway to use to connect to my DSL modem. then I can just say that I am on a LAN and the gateway takes care of the DSL stuff.

Actually, the Sun Java Desktop is aiming to be a *corporate* desktop (direct competitor to RH Enterprise WS). Sun still wants you to buy a full Solaris for servers. Sun has not put half of what RedHat has into open source. I've heard great things about Lindows, but I'm not going to use it.

Why don't people just face the fact? If you have a regular guy down the street who is completely new to computers, Linux is not for them! Windows/Mac is better for them, and Windows is usually the most economical because of hardware/computers compatible with Windows are cheap and available anywhere.

On Linux, you're going to have to make sure that every new device you buy for it is compatible, I don't care which distro you use. Red Hat was correct in their statement, and when he said "home user", he did not mean you or me. He meant that ever popular Joe User who is completely new to computers and isn't going to put so much work into making sure new devices are compatible and setting them up.

When RedHat/SuSE or Lindows can take a cheap digital camera (an iClick, not an Olympus), a cheap WinModem (Lucents are hard enough to set up if you know a good deal about Linux), etc., and work out of box, I might reconsider. For now, I'll just keep Linux for myself, and recommend Windows to new computer users.

Mario, it isn't about "building a coherent strategy" for desktop Linux. It's about making a desktop Linux that's polished enugh, easy enough, and foolproof enough to beat Windows at its own game in the home market.

Red Hat has not abandoned the desktop market. They've said Linux is quite ready for that market.

The home market is different. An OS has to be be damn near infallible to work in that market. Home users are on their own; there's no company tech support unit.

Here's just one example: My Fedora Core 1 install did not require me to configure X. It did it automatically behind the scense during the install, and it got it right. No Linux distribution has ever done that for me, and I've installed a lot of Linux flavors in the last several years.

On the flip side, my onboard soundcard is detected but Fedora seems unable to coax any sound out of it.

That's two examples of necessary improvements before Linux is really ready to sell into the home market. I know what kind of monitor and video card I have, but it is unreasonable to expect non-technical home users to know that. And, it is reasonable for them to expect the OS to know. As I've heard many of them say, isn't that what a computer is for?

As Red Hat says, Linux is a couple years away from being ready for the home market. It needs to be preceived as better than Windows, not just as good as Windows, before it can be viable there.

Well as it seems Fedora is not backporting much, or will- it`s just living on the bleeding edge, and will probably brake sometimes- well if you install everything anyways. And by the way Fedora could at least try to go the way wich is safer, backport some, desktop options could be upgraded xfree etc, and please try to limit services running, it`s like a flaming Windows 98. Slack/Debian/Gentoo etc are MUCH better to run if you know just a little- redhat/fedora has always been hell.

what version of python does fedora use?

Thanks

Anonymous says: "If you have a regular guy down the street who is completely new to computers, Linux is not for them! Windows/Mac is better for them, and Windows is usually the most economical because of hardware/computers compatible with Windows are cheap and available anywhere."

Very true, but the situation goes beyond that. Everyone who buys a PC almost certainly has an OS -- Windows -- up and running when the machine is plugged in for the first time. Wht incentive do they have, then, to run out and buy Linux? None that I can think of, unless their geeky enough to take that risk.


Remember, Linux advocates are asking Windows users to stop using an acceptable OS that meets their needs and migrate to a different OS that may not meet their needs. Without a strong incentive, most people won't do that. To wean people away from Windows, Linux needs to be perceived as offering something better that eases the risk of switching. Right now, it doesn't. Being just as good as Windows isn't going to cut it.
Even if PC's weren't preloaded with Windows, almost everyone would buy and install Windows anyway. Why? Because it works with their "stuff", and Linux might not.

I've used Gentoo quite extensively, and I'm sorry to say that it does NOT "just work" when compared to RedHat (and I assume Fedora Core). Want an example? If you're not exactly familiar with the inner workings of linux and what's needed to provide what, just try installing a base system and seeing where you end up. Hell, try INSTALLING the thing (gentoo's install, while original, is an adventure for anyone who's unseasoned). The first gentoo boot will dump you at the command prompt (assuming you get that far...you're a newbie, remember!). Now go on...emerge XFree86. Might wanna get a sandwich or something. Oh and before you go to bed, emerge kde. By tomorrow evening you should be in business. But wait...you didn't emerge freetype, did you? Now your fonts are crapola. Hey man that's fine. Just emerge freetype, re-emerge XFree86, and re-emerge KDE. Throw on a few extra apps for the functionality you want, add OpenOffice since it's the only reasonably-featured office suite around, and you should be in business within a half a week or so! I do speak from personal experience, by the way. This is exactly what I had to do when I did my first gentoo install, and it took about a week and a half of tweaking and fiddling to get my desktop to the point of a default Fedora install. Oh! Try this: yank your soundcard or NIC and replace it with a new one. Check out gentoo's reaction. Now recall, you're no linux pro. How ya gonna solve this one?

As a gentoo user, it should be common knowledge that that freetype is an Xfree86 dependency. Now you and I both know portage handles these dependencies automatically, and more often than not flawlessly. If I'm not mistaken, Xfree86 wouldn't compile without freetype. So I don't know whether your experience was cooked up or it is just a halucinatory effect of compiling too many packages. ;-) I've yanked up my network card a couple of times. And Gentoo still just worked. What happens when you yank out your soundcard? Because, honestly, I have no idea.

By contrast, Fedora core gives you beautiful fonts and a fully-functional system in 20 minutes and a few easy clicks. Wanna replace your soundcard or NIC? No problem! When you turn it on, it'll probe for new hardware and you'll be on your way again in no time. Not to mention automatic mounting of media as well as hotplug support (something which I never could get working with other distros, though they claim it's present). The media thing is a legal issue, and by no means is it a limitation of Fedora.

As a gentoo user, you and I both know that this is equally possible on Gentoo. Hotplugging is visited in the installation manual. It works for me. Same goes with automatic mounting of media. However, I hate to compile bloated kernels. My kernel is extremely streamlined. The media might be a legal issue, but I'd be disgusted to realise I couldn't play my favorite MP3 when I launch, say Rhythmbox, as an end user. Especially given the fact that I can do it on Gentoo[A supposedly do-it-yourself distro]. You do see where I'm coming from, right? Fonts? I've never had to fiddle with them. Anti-aliasing, sub-hinting and all what not supported out of the box.

Now I'll grant you this. To the seasoned linux vet, Gentoo just can't be beat. Once you do get it up and running, it's smooth as silk. Probably the best distro I've used in my life. Portage is the slickest package manager I've ever seen. However, when my hard drive crapped out and I had to redo everything, I just didn't have the heart to go schlog through all those issues again. I've really developed an appreciation for the integration and automation that Fedora provides. It's a "get out of my way and let me work" philosophy.

I don't seem to get that from the review. I mean, if it was a 'get our of my way and let me work" philosophy, why do you still have to fiddle with your music player to get MP3, OGG, Radio stations to work? Why don't you have a DVD player that just works? Ummmm...hmmmm...legal issues. I bet you installing mplayer on Fedora will also be accompanied by a lack of support for importan pluggins.

To me it seems like an endless journey of compromises between fully functional packages, legal stories and packages just not working out of the box. Agreed, Gentoo takes a while to install. Which is understandable it's a source based distro. But come on, music players should work out of the box. It is expected. Isn't fedora the distro where everything magically works out of the box? So what do you do now that you have Rhythmbox with no Radio station and plugin support? Do you reinstall it? Recompile it? Or look for another binary? Ahem, aren't we back to square one? What is the excuse you give to your Grandmother as to why here favorite mp3 just doesn't work? Mention the word "legal" and she'd never jump back to Linux again. Like I said, if nothing else, just don't install a subpar music player. This was the same issue debian had some years ago with mplayer, when people complained about how mplayer sucked. Not knowing debian were the guys who made it suck.

"You can chat online using GAIM (which even works with msn messenger after you have enabled the included plug-in)"
So Fedora is shipping a version of gaim that's more than a year old? Since 0.60 you no longer need to enable protocol plugins, they are autoloaded when needed.
Gaim is up to 0.72 now.

On my Fedora Core 1 box:

[xyz@~]$ rpm -q gaim
gaim-0.71-2

"You can chat online using GAIM (which even works with msn messenger after you have enabled the included plug-in)"
So Fedora is shipping a version of gaim that's more than a year old? Since 0.60 you no longer need to enable protocol plugins, they are autoloaded when needed.
Gaim is up to 0.72 now.

fedora final ships with gaim 0.71.

"what version of python does fedora use?"

# python
Python 2.2.3 (#1, Oct 15 2003, 23:33:35)
[GCC 3.3.1 20030930 (Red Hat Linux 3.3.1-6)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>

# python
Python 2.2.3 (#1, Oct 15 2003, 23:33:35)
[GCC 3.3.1 20030930 (Red Hat Linux 3.3.1-6)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>

I sincerely hope that can be remedied once I install it.

"On the flip side, my onboard soundcard is detected but Fedora seems unable to coax any sound out of it."

Try turning on ESD via the GNOME sound control panel, and make GAIM use it. I had similar issues until I did that. Basically, GAIM was grabbing /dev/dsp and nobody else was getting any time out of it.

Just a guess, though.

-Erwos

People BITCH and COMPLAIN if something isn't in fedora Core installations. "we want program X" "we want feature X".

look. You want the new gaim? get the rpm. if you have the old one installed, chances are that you're going to have the deps 95% of the time. and when the same one comes out in fedora's updates, you'll be uptodate already, and so will the deps.

another thing: i've not had to get ANY rpms and install them yet. all i've wanted was in the repos i have already.

http://www.xades.com/proj/fedora_repos.html is a good place for those looking for repos. you'll of course need to import the GPG keys into rpm first:

rpm --import http://fedora.us/FEDORA-GPG-KEY
rpm --import http://rpm.livna.org/RPM-LIVNA-GPG-KEY

and yum update. ( this is assuming yum ). if you get yum complaining about GPG keys, look for the source site URL and go there. nothing a little brains can't solve. if you're using linux, EXPECT to have SOME problems. After all ... it's not like getting windows running doesn't require SOME effort ( think funky drivers etc. )

after all ... when was the last time an entire OS upgrade took 20 minutes, and one command. and was free.

I don't mean to sound like I am a windows hater ( i use win2k3 ) and i quite like XP (stop snickering). i just prefer Linux.

Seraph, your post regarding your switch to Fedora was great! I have been using Linux for about 15 months now. I have used Mandrake and Redhat. I have stuck with Redhat since 8.0. Currently, my Linux machine (laptop)is running RH9 with package updates from a variety of repositories. My experiences with Linux and RH in particular have been GREAT!!!!

Not that long ago when I was an undergraduate student, my machine was running Windows 95. My system would get mysteriously thrashed every few months. It was HORRIBLE! It took me about 4-6 hours (it was a slow 486) to get my system back to the way I had it. I had to install the OS and every program individually.

NOW with RH Linux, I backup my personal files and any files that I may have added since the first install (themes, rpms, etc). If my system were to be thrashed NOW, I can simply put in the install disk answer a few questions about what software I want on my system and go have dinner. After the install I can use apt-get and have my system updated to the newest packages. How much simpler can it get?

I'm REALLY looking forward to using Fedora. I haven't been able to get a decent transfer rate from any of the mirrors. Everybody and their mother must be trying to download it. I have my machine downloading the CDs as we speak. Hopefully, by the end of the day they will be done.

"I'm REALLY looking forward to using Fedora."

If you liked RedHat 9, you will love Fedora Core 1. It's like an extremely polished, updated version of it. As always, read the release notes, because you can install it in any number of fun ways.

The MP3 thing is definitely annoying, but you can't fault them for trying to avoid being sued, right? I'd appreciate it livna could try to throw together a version of rhythymbox with MP3 enabled, though.

Not being able to play DVDs, of course, is not a surprise. You've gotta buy the DVD playing software for Windows, too, you know? Not that I feel in the least bit bad about using libdecss stuff, mind you, and I doubt the MPAA hates me for it, either, since I buy all my DVDs.

-Erwos

Anyone know if you can add new themes? With RedHat 9, every time I tried to install a new theme it would never show up in the list even though it was in fact being installed to ~/.themes

Great Review. Being a new person to linux, you hit upon all the issues I would have wanted to know about before I installed. Well thought out, and it also hits upon some poiunts that advanced users would be concerned about. Great review and insight into Fedora, keep it up.

As it used to work for me with Redhat 9, I don't see why it wouldn't work in Fedora.

That said, your problem might be that you didn't install full themes but theme compenents (Metacity themes, GTK2 themes or icon themes).

If you did so, they didn't appear in the theme list because what they call "theme" is really a meta-theme. So, to clarify, what you have to do is:

- install you metacity/gtk/icon theme
- click on any theme from the list
- click on "theme details"
- look for your metacity/gtk/icon theme in the "window border", "controls" and "icons" lists.

Hope this helps.

> Well i installed all the redhat versions up to 9 on my
> laptop and all worked with my xircom pcmcia card.

I hit the same problem. See http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=107221

But, to summarize here: Run
cardctl eject 0
wait a few seconds and then run
cardctl insert 0

to get ethernet up and running with the Xircom pcmcia card under Fedora 1.

> for me i was again not able to get online with Fedora!

Sound like the problem I had. What kind of ethernet connection do you have? If it happens to be a Xircom pcmcia card, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=107221

RE:<<Very true, but the situation goes beyond that. Everyone who buys a PC almost certainly has an OS -- Windows -- up and running when the machine is plugged in for the first time. Wht incentive do they have, then, to run out and buy Linux? None that I can think of, unless their geeky enough to take that risk.>>

My first computer was a Gateway with Win98se, it ran ok, and when WinME came out my brother bought a brand new Compaq with WinME on it and that thing would BSOD & lock up on a daily basis, so i never bought WinME and decided to keep Win98se, then when Win2k was released everybody on the BBSs i would frequent would praise it as being robust and stable so i take a chance and buy Win2k, it was slower, buggier, would lock up when trying to install the printer driver (a good HP842C deskjet), Win2k is more of a problem than Win98, so i wipe win2k off my disk and run only Win98 (was dual-boot) and now i have an expensive Win2k coffeecup coaster, and go to my local computer store and buy my first copy of Linux (Redhat-7.1) it installed in minutes!!! and after install there were no having to install device drivers because it was already configured (Video, Sound, Network, Printer worked great too) so i say to myself this Linux is pretty darn good!!! and Redhat made a believer out of me, i tried other distros and they were a mixed experience some good some bad, i always went back to my first love (Redhat) Microsoft can go jump in a lake because i am not wasting any more money on M$-Kludgeware, besides i am just a home user, i make very little money off my computing skills part time, mostly for fun anyway, so i made the switch to Linux back in 2000 with Redhat-7.1 and i keep the latest Redhat distro installed for 95 % of my computing needs, now if Adobe would make Photoshop run in Linux i would wipe win98se off and be 100 % Linux, Gimp is pretty good i like it but there is a certain smoothness and quality of photoshop that i need, i am sure that commercial software companies can make a living selling Linux applications especially for those apps that can not be substituted, i prefer Microsoft NOT make any Linux software as i feel Microsoft would compromise Linux's quality and security, but i would buy from Adobe, Powerquest, Macromedia, and most any other BUT the first time their software starts breaking and compromising stability and security then out you would go...

> Does anyone know if Ximian Desktop will be available for
> Fedora? If not does that mean the only distro supported will
> be SuSE, or will Mandrake be added?

Ximian Desktop currently supports Red Hat 7.3, 8.0, 9, and SuSE 8.2. See

http://support.ximian.com/cgi-bin/ximian.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.ph...

Note that Fedora isn't yet supported, but neither is SuSE 9.0. I'm fairly certain Fedora will be supported in the future--even with Novell buying SuSE. (One of the Ximian developers told me that although they'll probably be using SuSE more now, many of them would still be using Red Hat/Fedora on their home computers...)

'Yesterday afternoon Miguel de Icaza, co-founder of Ximian and currentCTO, told me, "We are going to support Fedora, and we are going tosupport Red Hat. Remember, we want our software to be as widely used aspossible." He added, "We are Linux vendor-neutral. We are going tosupport every Linux distribution because different markets have different needs. It just makes sense tobe vendor-agnostic and support every player in town."...As to the void left by Red Hat offering Red Hat Network support only forEnterprise Linux customers, the Red Hat moves have created a goldenopportunity for Ximian to expand its customer base. Ximian's Red Carpetprovides the same type of services as the Red Hat Network - high-speedlines for downloads and automated updates for security and bug fixes -for a comparable price. All Ximian needs to do to gain new customersfrom those abandoned by RHN is to support Fedora, and they say that'swhat they're going to do.
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/11/03/2136258&mode=t...

"The distro is *fast*. It beats Gentoo in terms of desktop speed/responsiveness/load times. No, don't argue. I have it in front of me."

Uhh...yes, I will argue. While I do not have my Gentoo box in front of me (I am at a library), I had it and my laptop (with its Fedora Core 1 installation) in front of me simultaneously at my desk last night for about an hour to do some responsiveness testing.

All I can say is, if your Gentoo installation runs slower than Fedora, you made some massive mistakes when you compiled it. Granted, my desktop machine is faster than my laptop by about 300 mhz (with equal RAM), but that doesn't account for the fact that it took Fedora nearly THREE TIMES as long to boot as Gentoo, even with most of the default-enabled crap turned off. Not to mention the fact that applications take significantly longer to load (including Mozilla, OpenOffice, and Evolution), Gnome takes almost twice as long to start up, and switching between windows and virtual desktops is noticeably less smooth. Additionally, although I obviously can't have the machines side by side, it really feels like the Gentoo install that was on my laptop before I installed Fedora was faster in all these respects as well, and that wasn't even a stage 1 install.

Some of the difference in responsiveness is definitely attributable to the fact that I'm running a 2.6 kernel on the Gentoo box; but even when it was running under 2.4, it was significantly faster than Fedora. Also, my laptop Gentoo install used a 2.4 kernel.

Don't get me wrong -- I like Fedora. I think it's polished, looks sharp, works quite well, etc. In fact, I'm probably going to leave it installed on my laptop, I like it so much. But it isn't faster than a properly built Gentoo, not by a (extremely) long shot.

Hopefully I'll find time next week to get a 2.6 kernel working with Fedora. That may change the way I see this issue, but I'm doubtful.

Chazwurth,

You really can't compare the speed of a laptop to a desktop. Most laptop hard drives are considerably slower in performance than a desktop hard drive, which could easily be the reason for the large slow down. Also, laptops (at least the ones I've dealt with) tend to have slower speed RAM. All in all, I've never seen a fair comparison of a desktop to a laptop, you have to sacrifice something for portability. You even mention different kernel versions in use, so the comparison you are making is a moot point.

Don't get me wrong, I think a properly configured Gentoo box is going to outperform other non-source based distros, assuming you go in and tweak your make.conf a bit, but not many people want to do that. I know I spent many an hour reading the forums to find the best compile options.

My cent-and-a-half (like it matters)

SMF

SMF,

Fair enough. I know this is only a subjective measure -- but I've tried four different distros on my laptop, including RedHat (8,9), Debian, Gentoo, and Fedora, and Fedora sure as hell feels like the slowest I've run. Or at least in the same league as RedHat.

Ah well...now you have me really wanting to measure. Looks like I'm gonna have to fill up one of those free partitions on my desktop machine.

How do you want to measure responsiveness? Fedora certainly don't has this slowness of Red Hat 9 anymore. The mouse is always responsive and I never had slow redraws yet, whatever I do (browser, ripping, music, Enemy Territory).
I'm very happy with this. Maybe my RH 9 setup was just borked, but I still used it for many months. =)

Nice work, Niall. Thanks for the XMMS info, too.

You have to fix the spelling and punctuation mistakes though!

--Noel

The most slowness I've experienced is in the boot process and in the time required to launch apps. Redraws aren't terrible, but aren't fantastic either. A lot of it is subjective for sure, hard to quantify, etc. It just doesn't feel all that fast.

when i said speed/responsiveness ... the responsiveness part should tell you that it's *after* i login that i speak of. sure it boots slower. that's a given, since it does all the probing in the world and has loads of startups apps.

but if my fedora machine which loads tons of 'crap' at boot, and is 'slow and binary' can load firebird in 1 second (at mst 2) ... WHILE having all this 'crap' already loaded, running etc. ... why do i need more speed?

btw, i mean responsiveness in this way: i have a fully loaded system. I am ripping a CD with sound juicer, playing music, checking (my LARGE) imap accounts, surfing the net with moz, wgetting a file, AND running yum to update stuff. i also have apache, mysql, php et all running along with an ftpd.

i don't really feel that. my menus come out a tad slower, but that's mostly true cause i have nice PNG icons everywhere. apart from that .... it feels the same at idle.

hint, hint: prelinking, NPTL, pre-emptive kernel (2.4.22-1.2061.nptl or thereabouts from my friends box as mine isn't here right now).

you see ... fedora gives you the stable, but cutting edge of most things. not quite bleeding, admittedly. but i think that's a good tradeoff.

Thanks for the great article! You did a really nice job. I can tell you put some real time and thought into this. This is what the Linux community is all about!

Regards,
James Blaha

Jsut tried it, I love the improved blue curve, now you really cant tell KDE or GNOME apart easily.

However, KDE is still crippled on Fedora.

Foe example, no "recent items" in KDE menu or "network servers" or ability to shut down or reboot instead of just logout like in gnome. ALl of these things are easily possible. For example for network servers all you have to do is type smb:/ in konquerors adress bar and recent documents is jsut a check away, but it smore the under the hood changes that annoy me, such as not linking basic libraries to KDE applications that need them. =( Hopefully, in the next release when it willr eally be built by the community KDE will not be crippled.

Actually, I used RH 9 for a while, a few days under KDE/KDM. I found that you can change the KDM config file (probably can change this thru the KDE control center as well) so that a normal user may choose to shut down/reboot the computer.

Along with Win2000 I have been using different versions of Redhat, and have tried a few other distros as well. To me Rh9 has been the most useful one. I could add most of the software I needed and both Java, Flash, Real Audio/Video, Mp3 have been working sufficiently well. I prefer KDE, and despite the trouble installing truetype fonts, it has been working almost without flaw, and the need for Win2000 has been steadily on the decline.
I had anticipated that Fedora would give me all this and more. Installing is painless and, as with RH9, it recognizes all my hardware, both internal and external. However, maybe someone can tell me why these things do not work:
Real Player and Flash will no longer cooperate.
Installing truetype fonts is now very easy but in KDE/Konqueror font sizes or line heights are too large, messing up a couple of webpages with tight spaces between elements. (This problem seems to be the same as was for the KDE 3.1.4.)
I think I'll return to RH9 and wait for Fedora 2. Or try SuSE 9, which seems to be more oriented towards the desktop. The Live-eval-9.0 is quite impressive.

Font problems are the same as with the KDE 3.1.4 upgrade for RH9 (It must be a Konqueror problem, not Fedora, because SuSE 9 with KDE 3.1.4 has it too, while Mozilla, in all three cases, does it right!)

I don't know if its fedora's or my monitor's problem, my monitor was unprobed so i entered the Hsync and Vsync from the manual, the installation(fresh install) went smooth. After the installation i was prompted to reboot, the graphical boot-up was nice, i was prompted to create a regular user and all those post install stuff. Then I logged in, saw the GNOME start up. I was begining to navigate the menus when the monitor's view shrunk, then kapooooffff!!!! Then I smelled some burned plastic/stuff coming from my monitor.

Kinda weird, i used the same Hsync and Vsync on this same machine with the RH9 install. Tsk!

"...To me Rh9 has been the most useful one. I could add most of the software I needed and both Java, Flash, Real Audio/Video, Mp3 have been working sufficiently well..."
From the 1st day rh9 released, I ve used it till FC1 was born. I see if you have trouble w/ ReaPlayer /FC1, then the same as RH9. coz' I myself had to install rp8 /rh9 from source. Did I do with FC1 and it's ok. All the rest (but Flash) I installed on FC1 and it is alright. installing mstruetypefontcore in FC1 is same as in RH9, and it works well on kde/gnome. However, I still think if you prefer KDE to Gnome, try Suse anyway. With me, linux is linux. Same. the selection of a Linux Dist is not for a religion but a habit and work.//end

Cracks me up reading these. MP3's and nice desktops... Anyone that actually uses linux install this yet? If you want a pretty desktop or mp3's (why is beyond me) then go get mandrake.