I purchased my first Apple Mac in October 2003, having been a Windows user for many years. It was a new iBook G4. I previously wrote an account of my early experience with this machine along with some of the problems that I encountered. A common criticism that I faced at the time was that I had written the article too early.
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Should have been called "Reasons Why I Don't Like Zealots"
They're everywhere dude. I don't like 'em either, but...
Lame article.
This is nothing more than a rant. Yes, we all know about mac zealots, there are also windows zealots, linux zealots, amd zealots, etc...
Yes the G4's at the top end were slower than the P4's at the top end, but not mhz for mhz. So the disparity in performance was not as wide as the mhz ratings inferred.
Yes, Apple has had some quality issues. But then quality has often been an issue in this industry. Technology is a race, time to market is common. So is an intense focus on COGS. Sometimes this causes a problem, such as the logic boards and white spots. Both of which have been dealt with, maybe a bit slower than they should have, but they were dealt with.
There is nothing wrong w/ charging for iApp upgrades. Each new version of the OS comes w/ the latest versions at the time of release. In 10.4, I'm sure there will be more recent versions of the iApps than in 10.3. Fact is, these apps require R&D, and resource allocations for development. Apple is a public corporation that has a responsibility to it's shareholders to produce a profit. If you want free software, go find some open source stuff.
Oh, and the 'heartfelt request' at the end is just a thinly veiled attempt to add any sort of legitimacy to this rant. Which is all it was, and belongs in a personal blog, not a tech news site.
- Kelson
but what in the hell was the point of this post? this isn't even os news! if i want to read a rant like that, thats what this below comment section is for. *shakes his head*
Everyone keeps talking about previous releases of Apples OS being free. I am refering to the point releases. Now has anyone ever considered the development costs that went into Panther from Jaguar?
This wasnt a standard point release (upgrade). If you note that the original release of OS X was based on *BSD 4.4 and by the time they got to 10.3, it was based on 5.0. Come on people, thee was some major work that was done by changing branches in BSD. And please, please, dont go into the Mach 3.0 (CMU) deal or explain to me that its Darwin. Yes, I understand that their was a fusion of OS' here.
Its all this development pays the programmers. Yes, I am a advocate of OSS/GPL software. I know it doesnt seem like it, but I am. Give Apple a golf clap every once in a while. OS X cost 100-125 dollars, what does XP or 2000 cost?
PS: no comments on OEM and Retail.
Apple could lower there hardware prices. No I am not an apple/mac user. I have always been an X86/ia32 person.
As a Mac Zealot, I hear you. Your description of a Mac Zealot fits me to a tee... almost. iLife is worth 4 times the amount you pay for it, I sincerely believe this - zealotry aside. As for upgrade costs, so far, the $129 a year doesn't bother me in the least - the improvements are worth it. Again, someone has to get paid for all this stuff. You're right about quality control - stay on top of this Apple!! My 15" Al book is fine, no problem - LOVE it. My Ti book however, suffered from the same crappy paint issues they all have, and a f@#ked up hinge. I believe the zealotry comes from our perceived need to over-compensate for being in such a minority. The sky could fall at any moment!!!
I would suggest to the author to stop visiting Mac users' websites and to subscribe to Apple developers' mailing lists. You can follow there technical and objective discussions among many new geeks users and fewer blatant digital artists.
It is a rant. Most editorials are rants anyway.
However, if a user (and consumer) finds something wrong with an operating system (any operating system), a technology around it, or the whole industry around it, it has a place on OSNews. One of the reasons people are coming to this site to learn about the good and the bads of different products and platforms. And this is an article about the bad ones. Other articles are about the good ones: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4982
Depends on the person. They all deserved to be heard though. If you are not interested in reading it, don't read it. But you don't have a say if something can get posted here or not just because you don't agree with it.
Operating systems are very complex. Its too bad we only analyze the surface area! Even though OSX has the best UI, it doesn't really matter to everyone. Its like leather seats.
I do want to remind some people that the underlying hardware (CPU included) is not an Operating System as in the case of a personal computer.
Overall, the OS will become transparent and non-important eventually. Just like it is for most appliances like my watch, TV, DVD player, Game machine, Automobile; and eventually without changing my lifestyle, pace maker.
. . . as long as it just works!
Lets be honest. Your Operating system of choice can probably do anything that the others can do, and the other way around. In fact, at the end user perspective it is more about personal taste, price and software availibility then anything else.
" the once magical experience of Mac ownership."
heh, once magical? You've never had it so good, so stop whining or try using OS 9 on a Beige G3, or perhaps XP? But I guess as you admit to enjoying the arguments of zealots (a sobriquet which you're straying dangerously close to acquiring yourself) whenever they arise, this article is just an attempt to flush a few more out of the woodwork to joust with.
If you have some interesting criticisms of OS X (and lord knows you could have some) or the current apple hardware, your article would be worth the space, but setting up a straw man to launch ad-hominem attacks is just dull, and tells us nothing. If you really didn't like zealots, you'd avoid tilting at windmills, but I suspect you secretly enjoy the type of person that really frustrates you.
"I find certain aspects of Apple's behaviour in the field of customer care rather disturbing."
Agreed, Apple is far from perfect, and this area needs improvement. How many recent lawsuits have there been? Geez, I can think of several...
I too can rarely stomach the stereotypical Mac zealot, and yet own three Macs. *shrugs* Love the machines, can't always stand the users. Mind you thse are the zealots I'm refering to, most users are fine and dandy.
So sure, rant it was, and perhaps not directly pertaining to OS News yet, I tend to agree with it.
"whatever
By Anonymous (IP: ---.client.comcast.net) - Posted on 2004-03-04 07:53:37
Sell your iBook on ebay and call it a day."
Thats way out of line, he loves his machine but can't stand the zealots, that does not extend itself to every Mac user. Its comments like that that only serve to underscore his point, you /dare/ question us?! kind of thinking. Hey, I love Apple but their not perfect, no one or nothing is. Remember the hockey puck mouse? How could anyone defend that ghastly thing? My /god/ what was Apple thinking? But I still bought an iMac, and still love Apple all in all. I have no qualms with criticism of those I respect if their genuinely out of line, and Apple has crossed that line before. Blindly defending them in spite of legitimate wrong is irresopnsible at worst and silly at best.
Think Mac zealots are nauseating? Try venturing into an Amiga/Pegasos forum and you'll see zealotry that makes your skin crawl!
As might be expected there are too many of the small minority of zealots that get completely OTT. Actually the Apple cause is served better by more reasoned championing of the good aspects and a better argued case for change for those things that haven't turned out correctly. Apple must be cautious about over-reacting to every shout about battery life expectancy, hinges, spots or whatever - that $5bn would soon disappear otherwise. Reasoned complaints will always get better attention.
I'd like to welcome a PC user to seeing that Apple's hardware and software combo offers a great experience. Just turn a deaf ear to the screamers!
I should note that on the very same day I bought a replacement mouse, hah. I doubt I was alone in that move. :-)
"Hail Steve. We rejoice in lining your pockets and increasing Apple's cash mountain to even more astronomical levels."
You can use prior iApps for free. If they do not suite your needs, then yes, you must buy new ones. Apple is an experience company, they sell both software and hardware, and most people that buy them understand that they are paying for the experience accompanied by the products they choose. Apple cannot turn a profit if people do not buy their products. No one forces you to buy iApps, nor do they force you to buy an Apple computer. If an Apple is not the right experience for you, then you can sell yours and move on, lessen learned.
And P.S. Apple is not the only company with zealots.
The author says, he always cheers for Windows during flame wars against Mac users. He also says that Apple having 5 billions in bank should do much about the quality of their products. Well, I've heard MS has a few times more then that, and one continuesly hears about security flaws, blue death screens and so on. Why cheer at all? And what it has to do with operating system?
2 cents not being Win nor Mac user.
Actually the mac zealots are a lot more rational than the Apple II zealots. When last I participated in Apple2 lists, these people were swearing up and down how their apple 2 GSs were better than anything out there, and it was a CONSPIRACY how Apple abandoned them to build the mac.
And then they'd go after each other for things like alleged piracy, not going away when you've been declared a pirate and shouted down on the list uniformly. I finally gave up when pieces of software (the TCP stack, in this case) had it in the licence that the particular guy I'm talking about couldn't use it... at that point I gave up. It was only ever a hobby for me, and I don't put up with even watching that level of crap go by, let alone participating in it without getting paid.
Worse than a zealot though, even if it's a spouse, who tells you how your OS sucks is having a spouse say how much *our* OS sucks (ie you start using the same one). Because you start to see the flaws.
I fully agree with your article. I'm using a Mac too (iBook G3-900) and I'm very happy with it (No annoying fans for the processor, easy-to-use OS, etc.). But the Mac zealots in the forums are just as bad as religious fanatics.
If you want to spend a lot of money to read mails, browse the web, write a letter or do any other standard stuff while also owning a designer piece, buy a mac. If not, just don't and get windows. If that as well isn't your thing, go linux/bsd/whatever.
Now why does some guy define himself and the use of a computer through the presence and behaviour of others? I don't get it. Weak personality structure per chance?
What are you talking about a 500Mhz G4 rocks! P4 evil. Intel inside is like having Bin-Laden inside man!
But on a serious note. I have noticed a comparable percentage of windows zealots. They grew up using windows, and that's all there is in the world to them. Linux is for hackers who want to rob the bank, and Mac's are for teachers and artists, who don't do any REAL work on there computer.
I don't think anybody likes zealots. Unless you happen to be a zealot, in which case you will probably like the other zealots that agree with you.
"When a company that has close to $5 billion dollars in the bank and a slick-talking CEO who happens to be one of the highest paid in the world refuse to acknowledge serious flaws in their hardware that are causing recurrent problems, then I'm left with a rather unpleasant taste in my mouth."
And you 'find yourself cheering for the Windows users'?! Talk about kicking the underdog.
Mac zealots, Linux zealots, BSD zealots, PaX zealots, Amiga zealots ... mmm ...
I've only ever come across ignorance (of the alternatives) in the Windows world, not zealots, although I accept they must exist. I assume the proportion of Windows zealots to everyone else must be low because I don't think the majority of Windows people actually bother to care.
Might, just might, zealotry be a combination of ignorance and fear? It is in politics; it's why certain newspapers try and generate fear, to keep their customers zealotry active and so keep them buying the newspaper. If so, encouraging zealotry is an effective way to keep customers. Might zealotry in the computer world be a deliberately taken position / marketing ploy, whether by corporates or communities, to keep themselves together and / or in business, to keep those zealots who use their products in a state of willing ignorance of the benefits of the competition?
If so, a zealot must be ill-informed, so cannot offer perspective. They're unable to discern the overall truth of a situation, which is why it's pointless to waste effort listening to zealots. Furthermore, if they dominate a particular technology, it suggests the people with perspective have abandoned it, implying the technology is drivel.
Thus zealots do fulfil a useful purpose; by promoting something, they demonstrate that it's pants.
All this is why I abandoned Apple so many years ago. They've clearly got themselves pretty well sorted out now, though. I believe OS X is excellent. I do hope Apple put that pot of gold to good use. Their attitude to iPod batteries is silly; it'll alienate or lose new customers, not just for iPods but for their entire product range, because it gives Apple as a manufacturer a reputation of shipping shoddy goods and not sorting the faults out.
Excellent perspective -- someone who likes the OS yet can objectively point out the problems with the hardware and community.
I wrote a TCO article a few months ago that didn't favor the Macintosh that I priced out. It ended up linked on some hate-filled Apple mailing list and suddenly I found some rather nasty trolls on my forums. They ignored the rules and refused to debate intelligently, completely disregarding any facts I presented about the systems I wrote about. I had to ban two of them and both threatened me personally through email afterward. One threatened to sick his cracker friends on my website, the other threatened to tell all her Mac friends to come to my forums to continue in a concerted trolling effort. All this because I said that a Macintosh is not the best deal for the everyday desktop user.
I also contacted Apple's PR department to try to get some stuff for review. They wouldn't send me any hardware because they didn't want me to test it with any operating systems other than OS X, which I found totally unreasonable and petty. Sun and IBM don't demand such terms. And some wonder why there aren't a lot of Apple hardware reviews or comparison articles...
I think the reason for the insanity of these people is that Apple projects itself as the underdog, the "special" and elite computer that isn't for everyone. Zealots tend to feel like underdogs, like the special elite, so they relate to the company image and see the computer as an expression of themselves. When you reduce that image in any way -- by fact or by fiction -- they perceive that as an attack on their very being. PC people tend to be more utilitarian; they didn't buy their system for its looks or for its image, they bought it to have fun and communicate with (or, possibly, to actually get some work done). A lot of Apple people buy Macs for work, and that is totally understandable from a graphics, video, or sound workstation perspective.
I look at a Mac and see a machine made to project an image rather than provide service. I see proprietary hardware and restrictively licensed proprietary software. I see expensive repairs, a short warranty, poor customer service, poor OS compatibility, a one-button no-scroll-wheel mouse, and about ten square feet of acrylic. I shake my head and sigh every time I see one, thinking about how Apple is just a smaller Microsoft that makes hardware and has a better PR campaign. And I don't understand why anyone would want to pay so much money for a Mac unless they need it for work or are otherwise set to make money with it (much like a Sun or SGI workstation).
Personally I think anyone who describes their computer as "beautiful" is a little on the crazy side. I've seen Solaris zealots and Linux zealots and all manner of strange computer people, but the only zealots who have ever threatened me with physical and financial harm are Apple zealots.
Anyway, this article was right on -- and that fact is evidenced by the acidic Apple zealots who have already posted flippant responses to it.
-Jem
The purpose of science is to ask questions, the purpose of religion is NOT to ask questions.
Refuse to bow to Mac Zealots, PC Zealots, game console zealots, republicans, democrats, or any dogmatic zealots of any persuasion.
I am proud to have an open mind, and I revel in having my opinions and beliefs challenged.
>> the purpose of religion is NOT to ask questions
So your religion is science ? What is the difference ?
Your changed one thing for another.
I am sort of a mac zealot, but you are right, I am often blind to the failures of the MAC. I'll try to be more critical. Apple's just another computer company nothing more nothing less. Microsoft is just shit.
The only reason why I defend the iLife purchase is because it comes with a new tool, witch (ask anyone) is worth the money it cost you alone (GarageBand).
(not to start a flame war) but just try going to any linux support, you will really hate it. RTFM!! =)
A pedestrian article, which raises points addressed elsewhere!
but I feel the need to respond to this -
"The purpose of science is to ask questions, the purpose of religion is NOT to ask questions."
Not all religions work that way, not all religions are dogmatic. A great many are based entirely around pushing and asking questions, blanket statements are rarely correct. Yes, many world religions historically, if not currently by many adherents, don't allow various sorts of questioning or doubt, but to extend this to /all/ religions is foolhardy and false. There is absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, with secularist beliefs such as athiesm, but a great many tend to have these blanket beliefs concerning religion as a whole and that iritates me to no end.
Linux is for hackers who want to rob the bank, and Mac's are for teachers and artists, who don't do any REAL work on there computer.
You should really watch yourself there, ANONYMOUS. I here everyone saying "The only problem with Macs, they have no GAMES!" If you are refering to Games as "REAL" work - you should rethink your statement. And if you are not, then I before I opend my mouth (or typed on this fourm) would have taken the time to actually use the Mac for several days. (And, becides - If the Mac doesnt do any REAL work, then why would the individuals who teach your kid to be smart enough to do anything put wipe his nose on his sleeve, use them?)
As someone that uses both OS X and Windows on a daily basis I had to chime in here. I guess the author doesn't read most of the forum posts from the "Apple zealots" across the web because all I ever hear is them constantly bitching about Apple, not praising them. Go to almost any Mac web site and you'll hear...Where are the G5 PowerBooks? Why aren't the G5 PowerMacs at 3GHz already? Why do I have to pay $129 for an OS upgrade? Why aren't the iPod minis only $99? On and on and on.
I'm annoyed at ignorant zealots period, no matter which OS they use. I certainly can't single out Mac users because I've found in my day to day dealings that Mac users are actually far more open minded on average than Windows users. This is because they've actually had extensive hands on use with both platforms since many are forced to use Windows at work everyday, whereas most Windows users haven't touched a Mac since the '80s if ever. Overall this article is pretty lazy I think, if you actually looked at all sides and did any reading at all you'd see that Apple zealots are no better or worse than those of Windows, Linux, Intel, AMD or any other platform. Just like most people, you see and hear only what you want to apparently.
I've only ever come across ignorance (of the alternatives) in the Windows world, not zealots
Looks like you haven't been following the posts on this site very much. There are regular posts from Windows zealots.
But what you say is true of most Windows users.
The standard of spelling in these comments is frankly dreadful. If people had spent more time listening to their teachers and less time RANTING then the world would be a better place.
By the way, I love this discussion!
To be more precise, win2k, xp, 10.2 and Debian Sarge, and I'm fairly indifferent towards all of them. They all get their jobs done, and they all heve their little quirks. I never understood computer zealots...
If you want to spend a lot of money to read mails, browse the web, write a letter or do any other standard stuff while also owning a designer piece, buy a mac.
You forgot: evade viruses w/o expensive software subscriptions, run Unix software (esp. X) in a user-friendly environment without an expensive Unix box, use a cutting-edge UI, ...
Mac's are for teachers and artists, who don't do any REAL work on there computer.
I notice that you neglect to mention university-level researchers and NASA scientists who want to get work done without worrying about the safety of the default security configuration and the user-unfriendliness of the system.
The problem with a lot of zealots is not that they're overly enthusiastic(which i believe is the definition of zealotry), but the sheer ignorance of the fanatic. For example, a few weeks a go there was some apple story and I commented how I was checking out the powerbooks for a desktop replacement notebook(not a mobile system), and that I thought that the current 17 inch notebooks were underpowered(1.3 ghz) and overpriced($3k). Of course I got the usual "mhz myth" comments, forgetting that no matter how you look at that 1.3 ghz G4 is no where in the same league as 3.2ghz P4. Then I get people telling me that these Sager systems run too hot and are too heavy even though I explained that I wanted a desktop replacement. I also stated that I'm more interested in MacOSX than Mac hardware and then I got the usual "Mac hardware is superior" rant. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It's the Steve Jobs reality distortion field in effect here.
I can't sympathize with the author's cheering for Windows in flamefests. Substitute "security model" for "hardware" in the passage below:
When a company that has close to $5 billion dollars in the bank and a slick-talking CEO who happens to be one of the highest paid in the world refuse to acknowledge serious flaws in their hardware that are causing recurrent problems, then I'm left with a rather unpleasant taste in my mouth.
I was checking out the powerbooks for a desktop replacement notebook(not a mobile system)
I followed that discussion. What I didn't understand then, and still don't understand now, is if you want a desktop replacement, why buy a notebook??? It's not as if a G5 is bolted to the floor and can't be moved when you need to move it.
Perhaps the reason that Mac zealots behave the way they do is because they constantly endure the sneers of Windows gamers who criticize the poor selection of games and lacklustre performance of the G4 processor.
Or because Unix zealots are fond of criticising Mac OS X for being too strange or proprietary, despite the fact that Unix distributions and their open-source cousins can't even agree on something as simple as how to start up the system, let alone on whether the OS core should use a microkernel architecture.
Perhaps it's because open-source bigots complain about the operating system being closed source, despite Apple being by far the most generous of all commercial vendors with their kernel source, and generally being a good open source citizen.
No doubt a proportion of Mac users are convinced that because they paid more for their computer it gives them a right to belittle others, in the same way as someone in a Georgio Armani suit might stare down his nose at my usual attire of football shirt, trackpants and trainers. There will always be wankers like that.
The bottom line is that Mac OS X is what it is, it will never be Unix, it will never be Linux, and it will never be Windows. I'm so sick to death of meaningless comparisons and benchmark pissing-matches between architectures and operating systems.
Use the right tool for the job and the most comfortable interface to control them and just allow yourself to be happy instead of looking at the grass on the other side all the time. 
I want something that I can take to various places. I don't need something that has 8 hours of battery life and I take to the park. I wanted something that I can take down to the living room and put on the coffee table, take to my girlfriends(who I live with most of the time). Take to a friends for some Lan quake fragging, etc... That's why I opted to get the Sager 5680. I can't be lugging towers and huge-ass monitors around with me. With this I get the power of the desktop, but it's portable(not mobile).
I used to work for the beta development team of a software manufacturer, and I noticed the same complaints. I broke it down like this:
Mac users were so unused to change and system failures, that when a product, even a beta product, crashes or asks them to change some system setting, they were aghast. "Turn on virtual memory?" They'd ask, like the very meaning was offensive. "How come the system crashed? Are you morons?" And the errors were never very helpful, either. "I got a System Error 11," they'd say, which in our manual, could be one of over 1024 things.
Windows users were a bit more hardy. They were used to crashes, and we had far more helpful bug reports from them. "I got a GPF in s3.dll, which I think is my video card."
That was back in 1996, so I don't know if the same applies with OSX and all.
You're article was great; you described my seven brothers and sisters (most of there children) and my father/farther in-law perfectly! They are however wintel zealots and I am the Mac user.
I hate talking about computers because I get a heavy dose of wintels are perfect and Macs are trash. None of them have really used a Mac.
Zealots are everywhere.
W
I'm glad the doctor has come to see and appreciate how well the Mac experience works for him. OS X is an incredible OS. And I understand how he can get upset with Apple zealots. They are a fanatical group. And, they are much different than Linux zealots. And Windows zealots. Actually, do Windows zealots even exist? Why?
Linux zealots will be the first to criticize and find flaws with their favorite OS. Apple zealots, from the pro-Apple websites I visit, seem to think Apple can do no wrong and are quick to attack anyone who criticizes Apple for anything. For instance, the guys who are suing over the iPod batteries. Or the people who complained about spots on the new Powerbooks. Or those who were having trouble with iBooks. Its always the same. "If you don't like it, leave" . Or "Go back to Windows".
I understand how the doctor can want to root for the "underdog" if you can call a Windows user an underdog.
My advice is to just stay away from Mac sites where the zealots live. You will be much happier with your Mac. You don't need reassurance from anyone. OS X takes care of that for you.
"Fun clip about macs
By Xhargh (IP: ---.ros.sgsnet.se) - Posted on 2004-03-04 12:01:46
http://vvv.hallah.nu/stuff/clip/mac.wmv"
I'm suprised no one has responded to this one yet. I've seen that before around, its quite funny. However, it sounds like his issues are with classic, and in my experiences Mac OS X is awefully damn solid. The "running to the store and grabbing a copy of Norton Utilities" bit sounds wrong, you - if need be - could just reinstall the o.s. ontop the existing (a "dirty" install) and not loose your files, configuration would be hosed naturally, but your files outa be fine. But seriously, even when I used classic it wasn't /that/ bad, certainly better then Win 9x. Yes, it would crash on me more often then I'd like, but it was at least predictable in its behavior, unlike Windows. If a certain action is said app produces a crash, then now you know what to avoid. Windows seems more random.
This was the dumbest thing I have read in a while. First there are lots of bad examples in the article. The whole charging for iApps, most of the Mac community hated the idea, yet you state otherwise. The fact is most came to realize, hey $50 is not a bad price for what you get, you'd pay a lot more on the Windows side. And I have never once heard anyone in the Mac community say the the white spot problem didn't exist (by the way Apple fixed this rather quickly), Apple also came through with the iBook logic board problems and will continue to make repairs for 2 more years if need be. This article is pretty baseless, yes there are zealots but there are for anything. After I switched the best part was the community they were always willing to help and answer questions.
You may find more zealots on the Mac side but I believe that is because we are a minority. And I can tell you personally i get annoyed with people who bash the mac for complete lack of knowledge on there part and to Windows users who constantly complain about their PC yet don't even know there is an alternative.
I've siad my peace call me a zealot if you want I could care less.
"MA, MBBS, MRCP". People who list their qualifications like this annoy the piss out of me. Am I meant to be impressed? Is this meant to distract from the fact that the article reads like a long dull whine?
Putting quotes around your ridiculous, made-up statements by fictional Mac users is a primitive trick to create the impression that there are zealots where there are none.
Refuting your points is easy:
How much do equivalent iApps cost for other platforms? Do the equivalents even exist? Well, iTunes exists for Windows, and it costs nothing. I have never purchased the iApps, and my bundled iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, and iMovie are used several times a week without problems, so obviously nobody is extorting the horrible sum of $50 from me.
$129 is an expensive OS upgrade. Windows upgrades cost nothing, right? And they work so well. When was the last time I installed a new version of Windows that ran faster than the old one on my PC? Every version of OS X I've installed is faster and more stable than the one before on the same computer.
As for quality control (and this is for all hardware complainers out there), if you're in the US, BUY THE COMPUTER ON A CREDIT CARD, and do a little research on consumer protection laws. If it breaks, ask for a new one or a refund, and tell your credit card you're not paying if the vendor refuses. Under the laws of my state, there is an implied warranty of merchantability, that is, an implicit guarantee that the thing will work for a reasonable amount of time, and the seller cannot refuse a monetary refund if the buyer wants it. If your state has no such laws, get 'em passed. I recently got a cash refund on an eight-month old sofa because the frame started to fail after 6 months. I ended up complaining to the attorney general office in my state, and they contcated the furniture store and fixed it up for me. If people would take advantage of consumer laws and credit card protections, it would be very hard for a company to hide crappy products. And oh yeah, Apple has fixed the hardware problems, I think, so that point of yours is just false.
I have worked in mixed environments for quite a while and in my experience people are zealots for whatever is in the den at home. Windows, Mac, Linux. . .it doesn't matter.
People are religiously devoted to what they know and the particulars of a given environment and its requirements be damned. If it isn't *exactly* what is at home (including individual software versions) then the badgering and mud-slinging begins. This is, in my experience, constant regardless of platform.
I'm sick and tired of this bogus, unsupported idea that Apple quality control is low. All computer brands have problems, including Apple. But the fact is, for several years now, Consumer reports has found that Apple has the fewest problems of any major brand. It also found apple tops in customer support.
These conclusions are based on extensive surveys involving thousands of Consumer Reports subscribers. Furthermore, they are comparative statistics - you can look at how many people reported failures on Dell versus Gateway versus Apple.
While no platform is perfect, the Mac experience is the BEST consumer computing experience available today. If you have a problem with that, you are only trying to justify your investment in and use of an inferior platform.
I'm planning to buy an ibook 14" or powerbook 12" however i had hard time examine which one has better in video card.
Ibook seem to have ATI Mobility Radion 9200 and Powerbook has NVIDIA GeForce FXGo 5200 (32MB DDR). Better powerbooks also uses ATI Radion, but not the 12" ones.
I would appreciate if someone would tell me which one is better or more recent.
And one more thing, what L2 Cache being 256MB OR 512MB has to do with performance.
Thanks already,
the whole zealotry thing is exactly why i've been to 1 linux users group meeting and never returned to another.......zealots are everywhere......
Stopped reading as soon as he said "Mac apologists". This term is 100 times more offensive than zealot. It attempts to suggest that a group of people have something to apologise for.
Says Punk Walrus:
"Mac users were so unused to change and system failures, that when a product, even a beta product, crashes or asks them to change some system setting, they were aghast. [snip]
Windows users were a bit more hardy. They were used to crashes, [snip]
That was back in 1996, so I don't know if the same applies with OSX and all."
Ironicaly, your post is an arguement for the superority of the Mac OS. Users were so unused to system failures that a crash wigged them out. Windows users were used to crashy, buggy software.
I switched to OS X with 10.1 and with one exception all of my KPs have stemmed from hardware failures. (Logic board + 2 dead Maxtor Hard Drives.)
IMHO the "problem" you experienced in 1996 will have only gotten worse.
Have many of the respondents read the article? Looking at the ensuing discussion tells me that, as a minimum, many did not understand what the author was saying. The major concern was that he had trouble connecting to his Wintel platform on the LAN. He has not received much response on this issue. Instead, I read the same old "garbage" on Yea this and Boo that OS.
I have found that my best source of information on connecting to a Wintel machine was to use the advice found in "Help":
<Type the network address for the computer in the Server Address text box using one of these formats:
smb://DNSname/sharename
smb://IPaddress/sharename
\DNSnamesharename
Follow the onscreen instructions to type the workgroup name and a user name and password, and choose the shared folder you want to access.>
I know that this is considered to be terrible in a group of people who are not used to arcane (to them) commands but it has worked for me in many instances. When there is a failure for this to work I have found that it is usually due to the setup of a router or the actual Windows sharing setup.
I hope that this is helpful to the author.
"but what in the hell was the point of this post? this isn't even os news! if i want to read a rant like that, thats what this below comment section is for."
The owners of this site agree with this **** otherwise it wouldn't have been published. I wonder if one us switched (Mac to Win) and wrote a similar rant would they publish it.
I'm a zealot. I admit it. I'm a zealot for a good user experience and practical solutions. Usually that biases me towards Apple.
Apple is far from perfect, but so are my employer and my son, and I will absolutely love everything they do (even if it drives me nuts). Apple doesn't even get that much loyalty from me.
If $129 a year is too steep, you can always skip an OS upgrade. Jaguar is still as good an OS as it was a year ago. I tend to be quite slow in upgrading my home machine. My work machine necessarily gets the OS upgrades right when they come out, but my home machine generally lags six or ten months behind. The zealous Apple apologist in me points out that Windows (the only other viable desktop OS**) costs just as much to upgrade, if you don't buy new hardware in between upgrades. On top of all of this, I still have to shell out $400 every two years to keep my development environment up to date. (I think that Mac OS X is currently the only commercial OS that still bundles in a C compiler, let alone other great development tools, such as those that make my PowerBook the first source for tracking down many kinds of bugs in my employer's primarily Windows software.)
iTunes aside, iApp upgrades were never free. The first upgrade to iMovie alone was something like $29. Likewise iDVD. Apple might have been nice and given one free upgrade for iPhoto, I don't remember. New versions have always come with new hardware and sometimes with the OS, but prior to iLife this was the only way to get upgrades of some of these apps.
** Yes, sorry Linux enthusiasts. Linux is a great server OS, and I ran it myself for many years myself before Apple wised up and bought/built a Unix-based OS. It has a long way to go before it can be considered a good desktop experience, however. Even Windows is better for the casual end-user than Linux.
I went to exactly one computer user group meeting in my life. Years ago, a friend of mine was considering buying a NeXT cube, and took me along to one of their meetings. There happened to be a demo of a new "3-D Spreadsheet" or somesuch that was available only for NeXT that evening.
What a frightening experience. I've always been a hardware and OS junkie, but these guys took cyberlust to a completely new level.
I often wondered how much this one meeting contributed to my friend's decision to buy a 386 PC instead of a NeXT.
I wonder also how much of this zealotry has leaked onto the Mac scene with the acquisition of NeXT and reacquisition of Steve Jobs. I've been hanging around Mac users and Apple retailers for years, and I don't recall it ever being this frantic prior to 1997.
This was a pure Mac bashing rant/editorial with properly chosen words/phrases (zealot, apologists, etc...)
Eugenia should delete this flamebait story at once.
Have many of the respondents read the article?
You're confusing the earlier article with the current article. Click on "Read more" to read the current article. There's nothing about networking in there, and you'll understand what all the fuss is about.
Atfer reading the article, I drew a parallel with a personal topic...
I'm an athiest; most of my friends are Christians. Some of them are overzealous Christians. I've been an overzealous Mac Fan.
I've learned that each individual's position is a strong one and that we all want to "convert" each other to the other's way of thinking. These Christians try to "save" me by trying to get me to believe in their God but, what they don't realize is that I want to "liberate" them from living their life under what I believe, to be false pretenses.
Who is right? I'll always believe I am however, I know that everyone has a right to believe an anything that they want. It's the overzealous people that we hate and we don't want to listen because of they way they are, not necessarily their views.
I think Windows is a piece of crap. I think the Mac OS is much better than other OSes out there though it has it's limitations as well.
I think we, as Mac users need to stop gloating and people will be more anxious to look at the other side of the world rather than "preaching" because all that does is alienate people to US, rather than the Mac OS.
"Teach, not Preach" is my motto... 
There are Zealots for every platform, as it's been pointed out so many times. this article's title leads you to belive you have a problem with the OS, which you then go on to say you love. lame way to get people to come here.
"Things I don't Like About Mac Zealots" would maybe have been a bit more appropriate title for the article...
I've had a Powerbook for about 3 months now and I think it is the best computer I have ever owned. Still, for me, it's just a nice portable *nix machine, and I don't really understand the special emotional relationship some people seem to have developed for Macs.
Right now the only computer I would even think about recommending to my non-geek friends would be Apple (a quick virus / spyware scan of some random non-techie's Windows box points you the biggest reason), but in the end they are just a hardware / software company trying to turn some profit, and while their current business practices are in many ways "healthier" than, for example, the Redmond people, I really see no reason for such all this zealotry (or hating, for that matter).
As a long time Mac-user (who has occasionally been accused of being a zealot), I rather liked the article. It reminds me that, in dealings with PC users (usually trying to set the facts straight, like that Macs can run MS Office), admitting when Macs aren't the best tool can make my positions and opinions hold more weight. In the past, I've just explained the Mac solution or workaround, but prefacing these facts, when warranted, with an admission that the PC solution is easier or cheaper or faster will show the PC user that I'm not a zealot hiding his head in the sand.
actually, since we're at the point of vaccinating our baby, the concern of research showing MMR might be causing autism is big. Interesting that the author for some reason decides to show discernable dislike for people concerned about their children in an article reviewing macintosh.
Btw, seems like a bunch of macintosh zelouts are here saying that he's not following the right avenues of try users and that he's once again incorrect in his judgement. Wasn't that the whole point with his article? That macusers refute any dislikes with huffs and puffs?
You want to see Mac Zealots in action? Take a look at the comments on MacNET http://www.macnet2.com/comments.php?id=464_0_1_0_C and see what REAL mac Zealots are like.
John Manzione has recently been outed as an Apple employee who copped a name from a Realtor in Florida, but nevertheless, his writing has been spot on for more than 2 years. Yet, every time he tackles the Zealot issue he is attacked like Muslims going after the Jews. (or vice versa).
The fact that he has been outed probably means he won't be around much longer, and I have a feeling some zealot is responsible for outing him.
Fanaticism is ANY form is ugly
This should be entitled, "Things I don't like about being a man".
"refuse to acknowledge serious flaws in their hardware that are causing recurrent problems"
Maybe this was responded to by someone here already... but uh... what do you mean ignore hardware issues?
iPod battery: replacement system in effect
iBook logic board: even before they publicly acknowledged it they replaced logic boards three and four times at a considerdable cost to the company. But now there is public acknowledgement in place and the issue is fixed.
Powerbook white spot screens: fixed when machine is under warranty
Time and time again Apple will repair the issue when the machine is under warranty. Sure, it isn't logical to replace a logic board 4 times, but it gave the customer a working machine according to the warranty issue. That wasn't ignoring anything! Had they been ignoring the issue, people's logic board wouldn't have been replaced.
you don't have a say if something can get posted here or not just because you don't agree with it.
I think that's an unfortunate sentence. I'm glad that this week more technical articles or interviews were posted rather than the viral yet-another-linux-distro-on-live-cd-or-not-that-everyone-already-knows -about reviews that made one out of two articles in the recent past.
But I think someone who's bought a Mac in 10/2003 (4 months ago), talks as if they've had it for ages, and go on with nothing but yet-another-someone's rants very hardly deserves to be on osnews. If it's the dont-like-it-dont-read-it policy, then why not just put a link to everything you come across? There is some filtering, or not?
I also think if you begin to show contempt for your readers they'll go somewhere else.
A.K.H. wrote: "Stopped reading as soon as he said "Mac apologists". This term is 100 times more offensive than zealot. It attempts to suggest that a group of people have something to apologise for."
A.K.H., you are misinterpreting the word. "Apologist" does not mean someone that apologizes for something in the context of saying "sorry" or offering an excuse.
The term "apologist" is derived from the Greek term *apologia*, which was a term for providing a reasoned, rational defense for something -- not an excuse.
I used to be a Mac Zealot... But between Mac OS X being a step forward as well as backwards, The improvements to Windows over the years, and getting to work on SGIs and Linux in college, I've pretty much become Platform Agnostic. They each have strengths and weakness. Apple tends to pay more attention to detail, but at the same time has problems with some basics (slow finder, poor support for machines that are a few years old, etc..), Microsoft doesn't pay enough attention to detail (interface inconsistencies, security issues, etc...) and drowns you with features rather than polishing and improving what already exists. I own an AMD Desktop as my work horse and a 15" PowerBook for power on the go... And Panther and XP co-exist happily.
It was not whether or not I agree with the article. In fact, I agree with his viewpoint on zealotry, but think the article itself was simply a troll. It was ill written with very poor examples.
You are absolutely right, I do not have a say in what is posted here. Typically, that is the responsibility of the editors. I must admit to being curious what the critieria is for having an article posted tho, as grammar, spelling, technical accuracy all seem to be non-issues.
I would hazard a guess that the criteria is whatever drives up the hit count for benefiting advertising revenue?
- Kelson
I agree that it was a poor article, interesting only that after having used a Mac for several months he acknowledges that it's an enjoyable experience.
I have no idea what there is to hate about another computer user. The Mac experience for me has been a fairly solitary one. It's the experience of being in the minority, not having others to work with or turn to when you have problems; but getting the job done anyway, usually without difficulty. I don't care if everyone else turns to Linux or stays with Windows. That's fine. I'll just keep using what I like.
This'd usually be off-topic on OSNews, but you brought it up. Are you aware why people are saying vaccinations cause things like autism and crohns' disease? Because they've used seriously heavy preservatives in these things. When giving babies vaccinations with levels of MERCURY hundreds of times what their bodies can cope with, is it not surprising some are developing mercury poisoning? Things like autism are actually just mercury poisoning.
Please don't assume that everyone who goes against whatever is called mainstream is a crackpot. You can read so much information about this it's not funny.
I'm a windows and mac user, I like my mac better because of the OS, iApp's and Final Cut Pro(i work in TV), but the thing that bugs me to the core is that in the past I positioned myself against some of Apples moves like charging for .mac when it was free. I got burned at the stake by Zealots, it was increadible. I've never once got that in the Windows side by thier users reeming on MS.
i recently started using macs and i've become increasingly disgruntled with the hardware lock-in issue. and the huge price of upgrading or buying a new mac.
i also absolutely despise the customer service. it doesn't matter if you call their support or go into the apple store, everyone you talk to is an asshole. the only way i've been able to get anything taken care of is by going to my local mom and pop apple reseller.
It's the product you like and the company you hate. So to translate:
You like Mac and hate Apple.
So buy a stinking Pegasos and run OS X on their without support and probably against the license agreement.
My problem with Mac, FIX THE LOGIC BOARDS ON THE IBOOK! I'd never buy a powerbook cause it's too much money to be "mobile." But iBook is a nicely priced product, cheaper than a Centrino with equivalent performance, runtime, value, and a nicer casing.
Wait one more thing, please, CD drives should have trays....Seriously, don't fear the tray.
I guess for now I'll stick with my old battery less compaq laptop and Athlon running Linux. Meh, I'd run Linux on a Mac if I had one.
I'm not even a Mac user (never used one) and I find this article to be nothing but a TROLL.
This is not an editorial. It contained little interesting information and was just a rant at something present for everything in life--zealots.
How this article was approved, I don't know.
"So buy a stinking Pegasos and run OS X on their without support and probably against the license agreement" You can't you need an "new world" Apple ROM to boot OS X. You can do it through Mac On Linux though without a ROM, if you don't mind the bit of performance you lose and quirky hardware abstraction it uses. Then again if your already running Linux the only thing you'd really ever need OS X for would be things like iTunes and Photoshop.
Ironically, today's newspaper has an story on how the scientists associated with the reports associating the MMR vaccine with autism, have now disowned the thing and admitted they were wrong.
http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp;:404672e4:79ce852caf...
I have no particular comment on whether the author was justified in using the analogy, but I hope people know the facts.
Not really that great of an article.
Zealots are the low point in any OS but if you take a look at OSNews articles you will find that most to all of the Mac users comment on the Mac articles and are usually well informed on the subject. The trolls make stupid comments on how you can't buy a Mac for less that $5K and how the quality is so bad and Mac users are mindless lemmings.
Guess what? Mac users are extremely critical of Apple. Apple has had several class action lawsuits from their customers and the zealotry is usually in response to totally inaccurrate comments from troll who don't even know jack shit about Macs but become experts on MacOS9, X, and Mac hardware yet they are clueless on how the difference on how to power on a 6100 or a 7100.
As it has been said before, there are zealots for more then Apple/Macintosh....so here we have it in rank of most zealous:
1) Anti-zealot Zealots
2) Linux Zealots
3) BeOS Zealots*
3) Mac/Apple Zealots*
4) Windows/MS Zealots
5) OS/2 Zealots
6) BSD Zealots
*I have to admit that BeOS used to be my primary operating system and I certainly had some extent of zealotry for it and currently I primarily use OS X, and yes probably am a mac zealot as well.
I think this article addresses some relevant points. There are people, like myself, who are turned off by all the tongue wagging and snobish attitudes of *some* people who can be described as "zealots". It has made me leary about buying a Powermac myself for fear of becoming one of "them".
I am sure, as this article indicates, that I am not the only one. The zealots, I believe, turn many people off Apple products who might actually enjoy them. Apple marketing does not help this situation. Their campaigns seem to target an individual's snob appeal: Think Different.
The same applies to their line of ipods. I know several people who want one for no identifiable reason. In this case Apple has targeted the same easily-impressed audience. But here instead they sell an overpriced,inherently inferior product which is based on inferior technology(MP3) and lousy hardware(headphones).