Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:06 UTC, submitted by dopey
SCO, Caldera, Unixware The SCO Group dismissed a leaked memo that connected Microsoft to $86 million in investments in the company, saying the author of the e-mail misunderstood the venture deal.
Order by: Score:
v Good Lord!!!
by pailhead on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:11 UTC
v RE: Good Lord!!!
by Professor on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:14 UTC
RE: Good Lord!!!
by chazwurth on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:17 UTC

God only knows (if you believe in that sort of thing).

My personal suspicion? The executives are rich, making money, think they have nothing to lose personally, and are willing to risk the company on the off chance that all these lawsuits might pay off big. They're likely hoping that the judges they end up in front of will be fairly ignorant of technical issues. Maybe they're even right about that, though I think they're doomed in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

RE: RE: Good Lord!!!
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:36 UTC

"The executives are rich, making money, think they have nothing to lose personally, and are willing to risk the company on the off chance that all these lawsuits might pay off big."

These lawsuits aren't going to payoff big. In the IBM case, the judge has twice asked SCO for evidence and twice she has been given nothing, other than posix standard header files. If SCO had a case their lawyers would be professional and walk into court with documentation and not say the dog ate my homework over the holidays.

The Autozone and Daimler Chrsyler cases are even sillier than that. There is no money to be made here. Microsoft is funding a FUD campaign, yet again, against Linux, via SCO, as this email proves. This is not about winning money in the courts. This is about spreading FUD in the press and has been from the beginning.

So much for those who still wail that Microsoft never did anything wrong by illegally preventing competition in the marketplace. Here it is in black and white. It is such a shame nothing will be done about it here in the United Corporations of America.

Argosy, You Out There? ;)
by Jud on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:37 UTC

Slightly OT, my apologies.

Argosy had asked in yesterday's SCO lawsuit thread why Linux vendors wouldn't indemnify their users. Two answers:

1. Some will.

2. Many won't on the basis of good legal advice. What's the good legal advice? With free software like GNU/Linux, your customer can change the source code. A lawyer will tell you not to make yourself responsible for indemnifying something you don't control. (E.g., I might agree to indemnify you for any injuries you receive on my property, but in your own home? Nah, not gonna happen.) Second, I am not an expert on the GPL, but isn't there something in there about absolutely no warranty? A warranty is not the same as an indemnity agreement, but I wonder how an indemnity for Linux would be viewed by the FSF?

That may be precisely why SCO issued the challenge to indemnify, knowing it would allow them to accuse Linux vendors of not standing behind their products. Another possibility is that discussions about indemnity agreements might include the issue of indemnification for the cost of defending lawsuits. Heh, easy way for SCO to ensure their Linux vendor competitors waste some money - sue their customers!

Oh goodness me.......
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 02:56 UTC

its all just a itty bitty widdle misunderstanding. In fact we really don't mean anything bad by attempting to bad mouth every Linux vendor and user on the planet. We're really sorry that we are trying to take over all Unix and Linux based operating systems and get the GPL declared unconstitutional. We're really big fans of Linux...honest....scouts honor....cross our fingers hope to die........blah blah blah blah....to infinity and beyond --->


(Just get to the dying part. The sooner the better)

Is it smart to sue your own customers ?
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 03:07 UTC

These guys are sueing their own customers, companies who are running SCO Unix.
If it had been me getting sued, I'd have my balls crushed by a wooden mallot before giving SCO one friggin' dime .. even if it meant I had to change platforms.
I just don't see the point of pissing off your own customeers - guess they're taking a cue from the RIAA.

v Look on the bright side of life...
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 03:07 UTC
v MS is just a evil empire
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 03:11 UTC
Groklaw reports it IS legit.
by dpi on Fri 5th Mar 2004 03:13 UTC

"Well, folks, the memo [1] is real. I just got confirmation from Eric Raymond that SCO has acknowledged the memo as legitimate. Eweek's Mary Jo Foley and Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols have the proof [2]: [...]"

[1] http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween10.html
[2] http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1542904,00.asp

Read the rest on Groklaw:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040304174457123

I still don't understand how the law can allow SCO to run around and sue everywhere when the battle of IBM vs SCO isn't over? I think, the law should stop SCO until the battle is over.

v Bill Gates is Satan
by Haldir on Fri 5th Mar 2004 04:02 UTC
Good To Know
by linux_baby on Fri 5th Mar 2004 04:13 UTC

Well, its great to finally get some solid confirmation of what we already knew: that Microsoft is bankrolling SCO. No longer shall microsoft shrills continue claiming that we are on the conspiracy side. On a serious note, I think every IT person should jump in on this and really teach Microsoft a lesson by cutting off their products as much as they can. One company having such a dominant influence on computer technology is bad for everyone, and when that company is as ruthless as Microsoft, we should all be wary.

Memo could burn MS?
by bxb32001 on Fri 5th Mar 2004 04:43 UTC

Hmmm, wouldn't this memo be proof of Microsoft's underhanded practices? Won't this make for another round of anti-trust cases? Doesn't this sound just plain evil?

Microsfots PR machine
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 05:14 UTC

MS has been conspicuously silent so far...

Take note of what wasn't said.
by Sam Shazaam on Fri 5th Mar 2004 05:45 UTC

Notice that they did not say "false" or "fabrication", they said "misunderstood". It could hardly be more apparent that it is true. As always their lies are just a little bit this side of provable slander. IANAL.

Evil
by Stray on Fri 5th Mar 2004 08:03 UTC

Hmmm, wouldn't this memo be proof of Microsoft's underhanded practices? Won't this make for another round of anti-trust cases? Doesn't this sound just plain evil?

Hmm...I dunno about that, but pissing on a dead person's grave is pretty damn evil. ;)

Well, who woulda guessed it?
by Wesley Parish on Fri 5th Mar 2004 08:32 UTC

Four years after giving us the tip-off that they were going to play dirty, really dirty,
http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween2.php#quote9
The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be investigated.
Microsoft go and do just that.

Except that nobody's taking their proxy lawsuit exactly seriously, and the only ones who have rolled over and played dead for SCO, can be shown to have had prior Microsoft involvement.

It doesn't seem that Microsoft knows any longer how to compete with products' quality - after having their shills yacketty-yacking on about "letting the market decide" during the anti-trust case, they then turn around and go hell-for-leather for the courts themselves, only using proxies this time, unlike Microsoft's competitors, who showed up for themselves.

Sad Day
by DrLinux on Fri 5th Mar 2004 08:55 UTC

This is a really sad day for all people in the software industry. The sad part is that we knew Microsoft was involved in this all along.

WAKE UP D.O.J.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

v You see? Osnews admins and readers!
by Tudy on Fri 5th Mar 2004 09:17 UTC
Hmmm, where's the reply email?
by DrLinux on Fri 5th Mar 2004 10:27 UTC

SCO: Leaked e-mail a 'Misunderstanding'
By Eugenia Loli-Queru, submitted by dopey - Posted on 2004-03-05 02:06:06

The SCO Group dismissed a leaked memo that connected Microsoft to $86 million in investments in the company, saying the author of the e-mail misunderstood the venture deal.


Hmm, lets see the reply made by Chris Sontag and Bob Bench explaining to Mike Anderer the "misunderstanding". If I were Chris or Bob, I would reply asap and clear any misunderstanding between them.

BTW, the heading is a little misleading wouldn't you say. The title should be more like, "Email Leacked: SCO backed by MS"

Oops
by DrLinux on Fri 5th Mar 2004 10:28 UTC

BTW, the heading is a little misleading wouldn't you say. The title should be more like, "Email Leacked: SCO backed by MS"

Oops, that should be "Email Leaked: SCO backed by MS"

v Freemasons
by William on Fri 5th Mar 2004 10:41 UTC
No surprise
by Metic on Fri 5th Mar 2004 11:39 UTC

It's all the Freemasons I tell ya!!!

Nah.., aliens from outer space have been ruling the sofware industry from the area 51 for quite some time, and the SCO case is just a smoke screen for their activities...;-)

Seriosly, why wouldn't someone like M$ try to use all means they have to fight their perhaps biggest competitor ever, Linux, GPL, and open source in general? Of course, I don't know the real facts about this leaked email etc., but anyway it doesn't sound a big surprise to me at all.

groaaaan
by -=StephenB=- on Fri 5th Mar 2004 12:15 UTC

I still don't understand how the law can allow SCO to run around and sue everywhere when the battle of IBM vs SCO isn't over? I think, the law should stop SCO until the battle is over

"Battle"? This isn't a comic book or a wwf match, so can we please put the ridiculous hyperbole away?

no surprise
by z1xq on Fri 5th Mar 2004 13:08 UTC

This is no surprise. If you have been following this story you would know that money has been changing hands between SCO and MS for a while now. All you Windows/Linux dual boot guys, surely this is incentive for you to dump the Windows partition off of your hard disk. Microsoft don't need to be making any more money off of the Linux Community (or freebsd community). Until people STOP using Windows and start using thier open source alternatives (linux/freebsd/darwin/OS X(yes it is open source on the kernel level)etc...) exclusively, commercial developers will never take our platforms seriously.

Not sure yet
by j on Fri 5th Mar 2004 13:15 UTC

I think this memo fits pretty well with what we know about MS attacking Linux (buying the liscenses from SCO etc) but I don't think we can be sure it's the 'smoking gun' just yet.
I won't be at all surprised if it DOES turn out to be proof but it seems odd that MS wouldn't have taken more care in funnelling money to SCO. I just think there's more to come on this story.

Why wouldn't MS support SCO?
by ryan on Fri 5th Mar 2004 14:04 UTC

The greatest threat to MS, at least in their minds, is open source.

lawsuits are the only way for MS to attack open source but MS can't sue the movement or its supporters itself.

So why not get a lacky like sco to do it. $86 million is pocket change to MS and the open source threat is taken quite seriously.

If you think its so far fetched that MS would invest $86 million to get someone else to sue what they perceive as a huge threat then i think you really need to open your eyes to how american business (and business in general) works.

That free market stuff is BS. Companies hate competing and they will do anything they can to stop a competitor. Anything. Big business is all about lawsuits, lawsuits, lawsuits. Why do you think companies are trying to patent everything under the sun...lawsuits.

Remember if the benefits exceed the cost then in big business you do it. The cost could be a DoJ investigation, prison time, human rights violations, privatizing people's water supply, selling human slaves. it does not matter to big business so long as there is a margin in the end.

Net: Its seems probable that microsoft is behind this.

Re: z1xq
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 14:55 UTC

All you Windows/Linux dual boot guys, surely this is incentive for you to dump the Windows partition off of your hard disk

*sigh* Some people will never get it. Those of us who keep Windows on the hard drive to so for specific reasons. The day I can do all of my work in Linux as efficiently as I can in Windows is the day I dump Windows forever. Believe me when I say that I hate MS just as much as the next guy, but for some of us, Windows remains a 'necessary evil.'

Darius
by z1xq on Fri 5th Mar 2004 15:09 UTC

Then go buy a Mac. Apple is a great suppoter of the open source community, and they do not want to take over the planet. Most of the big commercial apps are out for it, and it is dead easy to use as well as being extremely efficient and powerful. The networking under OS X is the best I've seen yet, barring FreeBSD.

Re: Darius
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 15:12 UTC

"The day I can do all of my work in Linux as efficiently as I can in Windows is the day I dump Windows forever. Believe me when I say that I hate MS just as much as the next guy, but for some of us, Windows remains a 'necessary evil.'"

I went through the same process a few years ago Darius. I had the very same attitude you are hinting at in your post. Somewhere along the way I realized how wrong I was and how my belief that Microsoft was a "necessary evil" was contributing to the prolonging of the dominance and influence of a really corrupt company over one of the most important communication tools mankind has ever seen, the computer.
It wasn't easy to walk away from Microsoft products, but I did it. You can too. The first step is to realize how really bad Microsoft is. (use this SCO fiasco for starters) Once you understand that the rest is easy. You will realize you don't really NEED those products to be productive. Good luck to you.

Re: "Email Leaked: SCO backed by MS"
by Kyle on Fri 5th Mar 2004 15:28 UTC

I actually sent this subject in yesterday when the story broke. It never got published and I never got a reply saying why it was denied. I fully believe it is the OSnews editors beliefs coming through. I don't know if it is intentional or not, but they spun this story as a pro-SCO story, pro-MS story.

Notice there is no link to Eric S. Raymond's discussion and breakdown of the email (I sent a link to this). There is no link to other stories about it. Only a link to a story where SCO publicists claim it was a misinterpreted email. Notice also the Bank of America claim was pushed into the Read More, below the advertisement. The last 10 - 15 news posts about SCO have been on the neutral to positive side. No representation for the neutral to negative said at all.

I would just like to know the justification for this. I expect bias from /. or WinSuperSite. I do not expect it from a site like OSnews that is supposedly neutral. OSnews has a bad habit of staying away from news negative about MS and SCO, but doesn't for Linux and Apple. It's a bad bias and pretty unprofessional, IMO.

I feel the editors views are being shown more than ever in article selection. It would be nice if the site would just be truly balanced.

v RE: Re: "Email Leaked: SCO backed by MS"
by DrLinux on Fri 5th Mar 2004 15:39 UTC
RE: z1xq
by Frank on Fri 5th Mar 2004 16:02 UTC

Something tells me spending any additional money is what he is looking to do...

If that were the case, he could just buy Codeweavers and Transgaming versions of WINE and save about $2,500 (when compared to a Mac, cuz its obvious he doesn't have a PPC machine).

He would still get most of the major apps, the major games, and run about $40 on his credit card.

Mac OS X rules, from what I have seen of it, but the price makes it impossible to justify for most people.

Re: z1xq
by sofa king what on Fri 5th Mar 2004 16:28 UTC

All you Windows/Linux dual boot guys, surely this is incentive for you to dump the Windows partition off of your hard disk.

Seriously I coulnd't care less, if microsoft is throwing some bones for sco to catch then good for them, let them have some fun! ($86 million! bah that's pocket change), im also using xf86 4.4 and don't care a bit what licence it uses.

Re: Darius Re: Frank
by z1xq on Fri 5th Mar 2004 16:43 UTC

I've got 2 PCs and a Mac. The PCs are very fast 2 Ghz machines and they cost me $400 each to build...there are some used parts. My mac was built using a Blue and White tower case and a motherboard off of Ebay for $65. I spent $50 on RAM put in an old 15g hard disk I had lying aroung, and got a G4 upgrade off of Ebay for $100. I put OS X on it and it runs great. It will handle any modern computing task efficiently. Cost $215. On the other side of the coin tell me the name of the app that you just "NEED" and I'll tell you an open source one that will fill that need. Until I discovered open source my financial situation forced me to be a software pirate in order to learn about computers...then I discovered there is more to computing than Micros**t. I pride myself on using "mostly" open source and I buy a few apps here and there like OS X Panther. I am no longer forced to pirate software to get by thanks to open source. If Micros**t is trying to attack it then they are attacking me personally. I am not a "zealot" I am just practical.

I don't think you guys get it ...
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 17:38 UTC

For me, cost isn't really an issue. If I wanted to by a $2,500 Mac, I could go out and buy one today. I personally *detest* the OSX interface, but would gladly switch under the optimal conditions.
But even if I had one, at the very least, Virtual PC would be a necessity. Granted, if I had a Mac, I wouldn't have to rely on Windows nearly as much as I would with Linux (I use my computer to make music, and there are a lot of great apps for this on the Mac platform), but since I would still be running Windows at least some of the time for other purposes (there are a couple of apps that I absolutely *depend* on to do my job, one of which is an in-house custom written sort of thing), it would kind of defeat the purpose.
Look, I understand how evil Microsoft is - you're really preaching to the chior here. But I also understand how evil my phone company is. So, I *could* just give up the phone since I only have one choice in my area for phone service, but that's not entirely pratical for me, and neither is giving up Windows. If you can do it, that's fine and I applaud you for it. But some of us, it's not really an option. Sure, I suppose everyone technically *could* make the switch, but I presume that everybody would lose *something* in the transition - and depending on exactly how much you would lose depends on if making the switch is a viable option for you.

I didn't lose anything. I gained a whole world of software and computing information that I never would have glimpsed. When I discovered Linux in 1999 I was a 39 year old security guard. Now I have a college education and work in the IT field. My knowledge of Linux systems has increased my overall competancy by leaps and bounds. My Windows only collegues never seem to be quite "there" in their knowledge. The only true computer wizards I have known were linux geeks. Don't go assuming that people sacrificed to the open source gods in order to dump Windows. For many of us this total switch empowered us totally. The whole attitude that everybody loses something for linux is backward. How many people here feel that using linux has opened up possibilities for them? How many feel they have lost? If I felt that I had to lose something I would go back to Windows. My decision is purely practical.

Who didn't know, really?
by Nicholas James on Fri 5th Mar 2004 18:20 UTC

I knew all along.

RE:How can SCO do that if the battle of IBM vs SCO isn't over?
by Uno Engborg on Fri 5th Mar 2004 18:38 UTC

Nothing prevents them from sueing other than the legal costs, but if you have rich friends that is no problem.

Another matter is winning. But I don't think that matters to SCO as they never intended to win. By the time the case reaches a the trial Darl and his gang is long gone and enjoying the sun on some foreign island

The idea is that the legal costs, even if SCO never would win a case, is too high to pay for the innocent victim. Imagine they accuse you of DMCA violations and FBI confiscates all your equippment that they suspect run Linux for a couple of months.

Its much simpler and cheaper to pay SCO $699. And this is what SCO hopes companies will do. They just need to file some law suits to set an example.

In the US they truely have the best legal system that money can buy.

wmn@worknman.com
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 18:53 UTC

I didn't lose anything. I gained a whole world of software and computing information that I never would have glimpsed.

What exactly did you do with your computer? Were there any tasks that were outside the range of what would be covered with 'bread and butter' apps .. ie, browsing the web, listening to MP3s, edting photos of aunt Edna, etc?

How many people here feel that using linux has opened up possibilities for them? How many feel they have lost?

None probably, as most of them that felt this way probably ended up going back to Windows.

The whole attitude that everybody loses something for linux is backward.

Having said that, I will snail mail you $100 if you can tell me how to do either of the following in Linux WITHOUT using Windows:

1 Do voice and video chat using the Yahoo Messenger protocol.
2. Access the Apple iTunes Store, then download and play the encrypted m4p music files using XMMS or some other audio app.

AFAIK, you can't do either one of these in Linux. If either of these tasks can be accomplished in Wine, I need to know which version and specifically how to set up the config files. Of course, I don't expect you to do that for free, which is why I said I'd pay you if you give me an answer.
If you know of a way, email me. (The email address provided here is a spamtrap, but you'll be directed to a webform.) This is a promise from me - my word is my bond.

Also, $200 if you know how to get CoolEdit Pro v2.1 FULLY FUNCTIONAL up and running in Linux. I am serious!




BTW:
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 18:55 UTC

BTW: My last challenge goes out to anyone and everyone - first person that sends me the info (and after I have had a chance to test it), gets the cash.

Interesting
by Anonymous on Fri 5th Mar 2004 19:25 UTC

I've mentioned before in other posts that SCO may be doing what MS can't do itself. So what if this site is 'biased'? Bias exsists, the question is do you know what your biases are?

Anyways, it will be interesting to see if "Mike Anderer" got paid as the Halloween notes point out. Either way, unless this appears in a court case, other than sweaty palms and nervous sqwaks, not much more will come of this leak - which would be regretable.

Oh, someone bashed all businesses becuase of MS's bad behavior: no, not all American businesses act like SCO or MS. If you think that, perhaps turning off the boob-tube would benefit you. Business are not evil in and of themselves, just the people that run MS and SCO! ;)

I posted the "Interesting" comment... opps
by Ressev on Fri 5th Mar 2004 19:30 UTC

@ Darius: I know exactly how you feel. I would love to dump MS for Linux if it were not for the fact that there are NO quality music apps for Linux at this point in time. Mac looks attractive, but that would be a major financial undertaking to dedicate resources to another, tighter, vendor lock-in.

I'll chip in $100 to yours as well if they can find an equal replacement for Finale, Sonar 3, and Project 5.

Darius
by z1xq on Fri 5th Mar 2004 19:52 UTC

1. Get the Yahoo client for Unix. I don't use it, but I know it exists.
2. Use Crossover Office for iTunes, my wife got it working in Xandros once, or better yet dump iTunes for www.allofmp3.com they have a much larger catalog and will even encode to Ogg Vorbis format. They charge about 5 cents a mb. They are based in the Ukraine and the service is legal. They pay less for thier lisence because of thier 3rd world status.
please post your email so we can arrange for the transfer...easiest $100 I ever made. Oh yeah, this is what I need a PC for - I word process, build web pages program, in 5 different languages, edit in 3d, photoediting, movies, mp3s, my computer is my stereo system, and lots of database stuff in MySQL.

1 Do voice and video chat using the Yahoo Messenger protocol.
2. Access the Apple iTunes Store, then download and play the encrypted m4p music files using XMMS or some other audio app.

AFAIK, you can't do either one of these in Linux. If either of these tasks can be accomplished in Wine, I need to know which version and specifically how to set up the config files. Of course, I don't expect you to do that for free, which is why I said I'd pay you if you give me an answer.
If you know of a way, email me. (The email address provided here is a spamtrap, but you'll be directed to a webform.) This is a promise from me - my word is my bond.


Would any of the above items be possible without facing the threat of lawsuits or some other legal problem?

One thing that really bugs me about people who complain about what they can't do in Linux is this: There wouldn't be so much interest in Linux if the "no-can-do" stuff were a major issue.

If (God forbid) SCO were to find enough corrupt officials to win their lawsuits, Linux would, indeed, become a real issue where applications are concerned. However, if things go the way I hope and expect, and SCO becomes a footnote in history, you will see new audio and video applications on Linux, including some good music-composition software, that are not hamstrung by patent and copyright issues.

If you want to put some money on the table, how about an award for excellence in new ways of handling the issues you mention above? Or ways of enriching the involved cultures using open standards?

Start-up company
by Ressev on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:08 UTC

I wouldn't mind assisting in a start-up to make quality OS music apps. But until then, we live with what we have until it can be replaced.

@ Nicholas James
by dpi on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:15 UTC

"I knew all along."

Not trying to nitpick here, but what was your proof then? If you _knew_ it, you had sufficient proof. If you had a "conspiracy theory" (or something like that) about this, you didn't _knew_ it, you _believed_ this was true. BIG difference!

While the e-mail has been pointed out as legit by SCO, i'm not so sure what this actually means? I'm not so easily convinved Microsoft is behind this, while i do have various theories and facts which back up the believe.

@ Darius

"1. Do voice and video chat using the Yahoo Messenger protocol.
2. Access the Apple iTunes Store, then download and play the encrypted m4p music files using XMMS or some other audio app.
3. Also, $200 if you know how to get CoolEdit Pro v2.1 FULLY FUNCTIONAL up and running in Linux. I am serious!"

These are all apps i don't know much about, especially not iTunes since i don't have a Mac (or Windows) nor does it work in Europe.

Regarding 1 and 3:

1) You might find a Yahoo client which does this on http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=yahoo§ion=projects
3) You might find AudaCity a suitable alternative: http://audacity.sf.net or perhaps you can find another alternative on freshmeat.net, or you can ask on Freenode #lad

If you don't find any native alternative, you can try the applications in WINE. You can find out wether it works or not at http://www.winehq.com/site/supported_applications sometimes it works better if you have Windows installed and use these DLL's, sometimes it works just fine without these.

If you want a certain application native on Linux while it doesn't run native on Linux MAIL THE AUTHOR. They have the source; they have the power to port. Alternatively, you can give feedbackto authors of a native program and/or donate and/or help their effort (ie. write documentation).

crying
by z1xq on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:30 UTC

Instead of crying about what you can't do, try focusing on solutions instead of crying. My first suggestion may not be perfect, but using allofmp3.com instead of iTunes is a brain dead common sense solution. Why spend as much as Apple is charging when it is legal and cheaper elsewhere. As far as music apps for linux there are plenty. Maybe my needs are crude or simple, but I'm satisfied with the Linux offerings.

@ Darius
by dpi on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:38 UTC

Here is a official Yahoo client for *NIX:
http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/unix.html
Does it suit your needs?

Re: everyone
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:41 UTC


Re: z1xq, Chuck Bermingham, dpi

1. Get the Yahoo client for Unix. I don't use it, but I know it exists.

While there is a Unix version of this app, it's missing the voice/video chat features of the Windows counterpart. The Unix version was a quick hack which, frankly sucks. BTW: This is for a friend of mine - I could personally care less.

se Crossover Office for iTunes, my wife got it working in Xandros once

I'll try it (I have a copy of Xandros 2.0), but assuming it works, that only solves half the problem. The other half is that, I want the ability to be able to *play* the encrypted files in something other than iTunes. Notice I said 'Access the Apple iTunes Store, then download and play the encrypted m4p music files using XMMS or some other audio app. The reason why is because i personally hate iTunes, but use it only to access their music store.

or better yet dump iTunes for www.allofmp3.com they have a much larger catalog and will even encode to Ogg Vorbis format. They charge about 5 cents a mb

Not an acceptable option. Why? Because in Windows, I have access to both sites (so I could look at the other if one doesn't have what I'm looking for) - in Linux, I have access to only one.

One thing that really bugs me about people who complain about what they can't do in Linux is this: There wouldn't be so much interest in Linux if the "no-can-do" stuff were a major issue.

Why is this or shouldn't this be a major issue? If you can't do what you want/need to with your computer, then what exactly is the point of owning a computer in the first place? If you're a Mac user, I guess the point would be because it looks cool sitting on a desk, but the rest of us are looking for something a little more practical.

If you want to put some money on the table, how about an award for excellence in new ways of handling the issues you mention above?

Alright, so then, give me a *new* ways I could do voice/video with the Yahoo Messenger protocol.

Or ways of enriching the involved cultures using open standards?

If I use open standards and the rest of those whom I communicate with don't, I think you can quickly see where the problem lies. I suppose we should all be driving hybrid cars right now to help out the enviroment, but we don't live in a perfect world.

If you don't find any native alternative, you can try the applications in WINE. You can find out wether it works or not at http://www.winehq.com/site/supported_applications

I've looked. CoolEdit apparently doesn't work, nobody that I know of has ben able to get voice chat to work in Yahoo. Some people have gotten webcam to work, but the rest of the client has serious defects. iTunes was not listed at all, or at least I didn't find it.

sometimes it works better if you have Windows installed and use these DLL's, sometimes it works just fine without these.

But wouldn't keeping Windows around kind of defeat the purpose? Maybe you wouldn't be *using* it, but still having it installed means you're still dependant on it, so you might as well use it.

As far as music apps for linux there are plenty. Maybe my needs are crude or simple, but I'm satisfied with the Linux offerings.

Yeah, I think that's the problem - for a lot of stuff, the needs of Linux users are crude and simple, and so they thnk everyone else is the same way, and then they wonder why the hell everyone else isn't using Linux.







for the audio apps try
by dopey on Fri 5th Mar 2004 20:41 UTC

Theres 2 progs available for linux that might meet your audio requirements:

1 is a cubase clone sort of

http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/rosegarden/

"Probably the closest native equivalent to CubaseŽ for Linux" -- Sound on Sound

ive read in winehq they have cooledit pro 1.2a working in wine.

also there is

http://www.finalscratch.com/fs4/load.asp?db=FS_Linux&sub=start


as for the yahoo messenger, im quite pissed with yahoo for years people have asked for voice and video, but they just ignore the pleas. I know gyach enhanced supports audio in yahoo chat (the web page chat) but im not sure if you could use that to chat with your mates that are logged into yahoo messenger.


Re: Argosy, You Out There? ;)
by Argosy on Fri 5th Mar 2004 21:16 UTC

"With free software like GNU/Linux, your customer can change the source code. A lawyer will tell you not to make yourself responsible for indemnifying something you don't control."

This might be true, however the fact remains that vendors are selling possibly illegal code (theoretically at least, I don't believe so), software that can get their customers sued. I think they should be obligated to offer some sort of protection, but really it's just another part of these vast spider web being woven by SCO. Sickening really. Parts of the U.S. government use Linux. Technically they could be sued too, which is why as some here have pointed out, the Justice Department should get involved.

@z1xq
by Drill Sgt on Fri 5th Mar 2004 21:35 UTC

"1. Get the Yahoo client for Unix. I don't use it, but I know it exists."

It does exist, however voice and video chat is not supported by the *NIX version.

@ Darius
by dpi on Fri 5th Mar 2004 22:02 UTC

"While there is a Unix version of this app, it's missing the voice/video chat features of the Windows counterpart. The Unix version was a quick hack which, frankly sucks. BTW: This is for a friend of mine - I could personally care less."

Hoe about the tons of other clients?

"I want the ability to be able to *play* the encrypted files in something other than iTunes."

"DVD Jon" cracked this. The URL i had with a link to the software is unfortunately down last time i checked, but perhaps Google or Archive.org still has a mirror or cache.

"Not an acceptable option. Why? Because in Windows, I have access to both sites (so I could look at the other if one doesn't have what I'm looking for) - in Linux, I have access to only one."

Ask Apple to port iTunes to Linux. Shouldn't be much work given it runs already on OSX. If they don't know there's a market for it or people want it...

"I've looked. CoolEdit apparently doesn't work"

Have you considered to put that $200 in a bounty program for this purpose? Have you tried any of the suggestions to get it working which were posted in the CoolEdit threads?

"But wouldn't keeping Windows around kind of defeat the purpose? Maybe you wouldn't be *using* it, but still having it installed means you're still dependant on it, so you might as well use it."

Depends. From a security or stability point of view, those matter not while you have a more diverse choice of running applications. Given you already have a license, you can run it legally just fine. In fact, when you have it installed and use the DLL's, "so you might as well use it" is a false statement; you are using it!

If you want to independant of MS Windows i suggest you either try to convince the owners of the source, support an emulator (Win4lin, VMware, Xen) or API implementation project (WINE), support a native application is some way or another.

You can jump high and low, flame Linux users, and the like. The fact remains you want to run CoolEdit Pro on Linux while you cannot, has some reasons -- and solutions. So start solving that if you wish to run it so deperately. Disney, for one, solved their issue.

@ Darius
by Quiet Observer on Fri 5th Mar 2004 22:09 UTC

""DVD Jon" cracked this. The URL i had with a link to the software is unfortunately down last time i checked, but perhaps Google or Archive.org still has a mirror or cache."

(ahem) Since you brought it up (shhhhh, the MPAA could be watching), how do you, um get those codecs for Mplayer or Xine to do DVDs?

Re: dpi
by Darius on Fri 5th Mar 2004 22:27 UTC

"While there is a Unix version of this app, it's missing the voice/video chat features of the Windows counterpart. The Unix version was a quick hack which, frankly sucks. BTW: This is for a friend of mine - I could personally care less."

How about the tons of other clients?


None that I currently know about it.

"DVD Jon" cracked this. The URL i had with a link to the software is unfortunately down last time i checked, but perhaps Google or Archive.org still has a mirror or cache.

Which link? Are you talking about encrypted DVDs? I'm talking about encrypted AAC files.

Have you considered to put that $200 in a bounty program for this purpose? Have you tried any of the suggestions to get it working which were posted in the CoolEdit threads?

Are you talking about the WineHQ database? The newest version I saw listed was v1.2, but we're not up to v2.1 .. old version is very old by now.

But wouldn't keeping Windows around kind of defeat the purpose? Maybe you wouldn't be *using* it, but still having it installed means you're still dependant on it, so you might as well use it."

[i]Depends. From a security or stability point of view


Security and stability are both fine for me. The only people who have problems with either are the ones who don't know how to set things up properly. My XP box is both secure and rock solid, only needing to be rebooted to install new drivers or Windows Updates.

those matter not while you have a more diverse choice of running applications.

More diverse choice? Sounds like I would have less, unless you count about 10,000 different projects from sourceforge that are up to version 0.2.

Given you already have a license, you can run it legally just fine. In fact, when you have it installed and use the DLL's, "so you might as well use it" is a false statement; you are using it!

So, given that stability or security are not problems for me, what technically is the difference between using by actually running it and having all the apps I want, and using it by trying to make apps work in Linux?

If you want to independant of MS Windows i suggest you either try to convince the owners of the source, support an emulator (Win4lin, VMware, Xen) or API implementation project (WINE), support a native application is some way or another.

For most apps I run, where I think it is feasible (ie: non-MS), I do write to vendors and request a Linux version. Some say no way in hell, some are considering it, and some have plans to port their apps.
But just because they do that doesn't make Linux more viable immediately. Maybe it will be someday ...

You can jump high and low, flame Linux users, and the like.

Who is flaming? I simply responded to the guy who said this SCO thing should be an incentive to get off Windows ... and I'm trying to explain to him why this is not so.

The fact remains you want to run CoolEdit Pro on Linux while you cannot, has some reasons -- and solutions

When it comes to solutions, I'm all ears. I've tried Audacity, which is a complete joke. It might be good for a free app, but it still has a long way to go.







@ Quiet Observer, Darius
by dpi on Fri 5th Mar 2004 23:04 UTC

"(ahem) Since you brought it up (shhhhh, the MPAA could be watching), how do you, um get those codecs for Mplayer or Xine to do DVDs?"

You have to compile DeCSS, or find a native port (depending on OS) of this. This is addressed at the MPlayer documentation at http://www.mplayerhq.hu it is btw legal to run or share this in the USA; this has recently been addressed by court rulings in the USA. Regarding Xine i don't know, but i think it's possible on Xine too given it has DVD support, but in both situations you'll have to recompile Xine/MPlayer or find a all-in-one native port. Prepare to do some investigation...

Jurisdiction about the lawsuit is all over the net.

DeCSS can be found here:

http://www.nanocrew.net/DeCSS/decss.html
http://decss.zoy.org

"Which link? Are you talking about encrypted DVDs? I'm talking about encrypted AAC files."

Sorry, i meant AAC encrypted files, for which "DVD Jon" (his nickname in the regular media) made software to bypass or crack the "DRM". His real name is Jon Lech Johansen.

http://www.infoanarchy.org/story/2003/11/24/22326/600

The program is called QtFairUse

http://www.nanocrew.net/software/

As you can see, QtFairUse ain't there. The information about cracking MS DRM is about DRMv1.

"Security and stability are both fine for me. The only people who have problems with either are the ones who don't know how to set things up properly. My XP box is both secure and rock solid, only needing to be rebooted to install new drivers or Windows Updates."

(Why) are you considering Linux then?

"So, given that stability or security are not problems for me, what technically is the difference between using by actually running it and having all the apps I want, and using it by trying to make apps work in Linux?"

The answer depends on above question. But this all makes me wondering: first it appeared to me you wanted to run Linux to run several applications, now it appears you don't because you do not have a reason to run Linux; which is it? It doesn't correlate.

Yet when you try to argument, it has been proven by earlier sources (URL's) some people have gotten CoolEdit to work with some tweaks, while others provide a native, good alternative for other sound applications. And, those are just a few applications. There's _so_ much more, what exactly have you investigated?

It has to be said that i admire your efforts in stating your opinion, request to the authors and owners of the source.

"When it comes to solutions, I'm all ears. I've tried Audacity, which is a complete joke. It might be good for a free app, but it still has a long way to go."

I think it's a good alternative for end-users who don't want to walk the dark warez path, neither want to grab deep in their pockets, while not needing all the features CoolEdit provides (it runs in MS Windows too). But whatever; how about RoseGarden?

And one more thing regarding SCO
by Argosy on Fri 5th Mar 2004 23:14 UTC

Via the American Heritage dictionary "extort - To obtain (eg. money) by coercion or intimidation"

Darius go there and you will know.
by z1xq on Sat 6th Mar 2004 00:08 UTC

"or better yet dump iTunes for www.allofmp3.com they have a much larger catalog and will even encode to Ogg Vorbis format. They charge about 5 cents a mb"

"Not an acceptable option. Why? Because in Windows, I have access to both sites (so I could look at the other if one doesn't have what I'm looking for) - in Linux, I have access to only one."




The beauty of www.allofmp3.com is they encode in any format even Apple's .aac. Even Windows users should check this one out. allofmp3 is any platform even choose your own bitrate.

SCOundrels
by dopey on Sat 6th Mar 2004 00:27 UTC

can sco get any more low ? check here for what i mean

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040305174627767

and

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-5170485.html?tag=header.newsfeed

this all just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.


@Darius

talking about switching to linux. If windows work for you, then why change as dpi said.
We dont need you to switch, but dont make bullshit excuses to act like you desperatly want to use linux.
If your comfortable in windows then use it.
Its your choice, but then dont bullshit about third party apps for windows not working on linux, and also dont say crap like:




Yeah, I think that's the problem - for a lot of stuff, the needs of Linux users are crude and simple,
and so they thnk everyone else is the same way, and then they wonder why the hell everyone else isn't using Linux.



because your implication is just wrong. Most linux users needs are far too complex for windows to provide it.

Dont forget we didnt post up on a news board saying oh you should all be using linux,
you posted up about wanting to switch. We gave you solutions.

lets see

1) http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/rosegarden/

also

2) http://www.finalscratch.com/fs4/load.asp?db=FS_Linux&sub=start
final scratch isnt gpled it costs a lot of money, i dont know how useful it would be for you though.

3) You might find AudaCity a suitable alternative: http://audacity.sf.net or perhaps you can find another alternative on freshmeat.net,
or you can ask on Freenode #lad (from dpi)

also im currently downloading a version of cooledit pro just to test it in crossover office for you and if it works, ill let you know.

As to the itunes saga, there are solutions for getting it to work as dpi mentioned the QTFairUse. and theres always
other sites that provide the same functionality (z1xq provides you with a cheper alternative)
z1xq pointed out it works with crossover office, But you dont like the player in which case you can use QTFairUse to get around the protection.
and use it in xmms.

as to DeCSS, if you this source in debian, deb http://marillat.free.fr/ unstable main
it installs it, You dont need to recompile xine or mplayer they auto pick it up.

You refuse to use mac because you dont like the ui, fair enough. You dont use linux because you cant get app support that you want.
You are very particular in how you want things done and windows provides you with what you want. Then why would you want to change ?

The fact is you sound like you want to switch but are scared to because you lose your familiarity / your not brave enough. Once you do make the complete switch
you then realise that behind the lick of gloss windows has, how shit it is.

Shame you choose a nick, thats named after one of the greatest persian kings (shahenshah Darryoosh) who was a great liberator of oppressors, But use such an oppressive operating system.
:-D

Most linux users ...
by z1xq on Sat 6th Mar 2004 02:23 UTC

Most linux users needs are far too complex for windows to provide it.

Well said and rightly so. Linux has the BEST development environments bar none. There are many things that are done in Linux quite elegantly. Windows is crude shareware in comparison. Linux is harder to learn, but the flexibility is legendary. This guys probably right. For people with crude and simple needs staying with Windows is probably best. Bill is gonna need friends once the 2.6 kernel and KDE 3.2 start kicking in.

Re
by Darius on Sat 6th Mar 2004 02:57 UTC

Yet when you try to argument, it has been proven by earlier sources (URL's) some people have gotten CoolEdit to work with some tweaks

The stuff I saw for CoolEdit is for an older version that I don't even have.

talking about switching to linux. If windows work for you, then why change as dpi said.

For the same reasons why a lot of other people want to switch - who likes to patronize corporate criminals?

Most linux users needs are far too complex for windows to provide it.

Well, I suppose this depends on what genre of apps you're talking about, and it certainly ain't audio by any stretch of the imagination. When talking about various features of various programs, a typical Linux user will say "But woh needs all those features" or "Linux is great, if all you want to do is xyz ..."

Dont forget we didnt post up on a news board saying oh you should all be using linux

No, but somebody posted and said that because of the whole SCO thing, that should be a good incentive for us to switch, which is what I originally responded to.

lets see
1) http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/rosegarden/


RoseGarden isn't really the same kind of app - it's more of a Cubase/Sonar-type of app. It is for audio/midi sequencing whereas CoolEdit is more of an app for editing audio files. In other words, CoolEdit is to audio what Photoship is to pictures.

final scratch isnt gpled it costs a lot of money, i dont know how useful it would be for you though.

Not very ... Final Scratch is for DJs .. you know, people who actually have turntables. It's amazing that people who say Windows is 'shit' will offer alternatives such as this as alternatives to Windows apps for which this isn't even REMOTELY related to, which shows how uninformed they really are. You may be able to do god-like things with bash and/or gcc, but you don't know shit about audio apps, so you shouldn't even be commenting in the first place.

You might find AudaCity a suitable alternative: http://audacity.sf.net

Again, to use the graphics analogy, this is like comparing MS Paint to Photoshop. I think Audacity is now where Cooledit was back around 1995.

also im currently downloading a version of cooledit pro just to test it in crossover office for you and if it works, ill let you know.

I've tried it - it will install, but hangs on the splash screen when you start it up. If you can get it to run, you are most certainly a better man than I.

As to the itunes saga, there are solutions for getting it to work as dpi mentioned the QTFairUse

According to the site that was linked QTFairUse only works in Windows (?), and also requires Quicktime, so it at least needs that much in order to run.

theres always
other sites that provide the same functionality (z1xq provides you with a cheper alternative)


I've had a chance to look at this site, and it might actually work. I'm not exactly pleased with the low-quality samples, but the ability to choose file formats is appealing. I only have to question the legality of the site here in the US. Not that I care all that much, but it would be a shame if the RIAA found a way to shut it down.

as to DeCSS, if you this source in debian, deb http://marillat.free.fr/ unstable main
it installs it, You dont need to recompile xine or mplayer they auto pick it up.


I never did comment on DeCSS, although I have to wonder where Linux would be with DVD support if they hadn't have cracked the encryption - makes me wonder about future technologies that are DRM-laced.





Also ..
by Darius on Sat 6th Mar 2004 03:08 UTC

Shame you choose a nick, thats named after one of the greatest persian kings (shahenshah Darryoosh) who was a great liberator of oppressors, But use such an oppressive operating system.

I don't think it is an oppressive OS at all. Sure, there are certain limitations of it, such as not being able to view the source code, but I am not a programmer anyway. In fact, as much as I've played around with Linux, I haven't once glanced at the source - I have no need to.
The other so-called 'problems' relating to Windows, as I've said before, are only problems for those who do not know what they're doing. The ability to 'tame' Windows requires work, just like it does in Linux. The only difference is that the apps are generally much better over here.

Though it some ways Windows could be considered more oppressive, in other ways, it's less. For example, if a new piece of PC-compatible hardware is released tomorrow, I can go out and buy it right now, and know there there's a 99% chance that, not only will it work with my OS, but there will be drivers provided by the vendor in the package as well. Linux? Well, if you're lucky, the vendor might support it. If not, you can only hope that it uses a chipset that is already supported, or the device is some standad USB fare. If not, who knows how long it'll be until it works with Linux - maybe when somebody gets around to writing a driver for it. And even then the functionality is sometimes limited. For example, in Windows, there's a util I can pull up to find out how much ink is left in the printer, no such luck in Linux. Yeah, I know ... it's the vendor's fault. Well, here's a quater - call somebody who cares.

As for apps, pick almost any genre of desktop app and I've probably got at least 2 dozen in which to choose from.

So as for the whole oppressive thing, I guess it depends on your perspective. Though I hate the company, I generally like the platform, mainly because of the apps it runs.

@darius
by dopey on Sat 6th Mar 2004 04:37 UTC


For the same reasons why a lot of other people want to switch - who likes to patronize corporate criminals?


fair enough, but some people with them same feelings stepped away from ms, and the more that step away and start using alternatives such as alternatives the more the demand put on hardware/software manufacturers to support the alternatives, i guess us that are willing to use linux are the ones that are opening up the market from microsofts stranglehold.



Well, I suppose this depends on what genre of apps you're talking about, and it certainly ain't audio by any stretch of the imagination. When talking about various features of various programs, a typical Linux user will say "But woh needs all those features" or "Linux is great, if all you want to do is xyz ..."


audio is in the works, i think with the preempt patches recently introduced in 2.6 linux is one of the lowest latency kernels around.

http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/resourceslatency.php3 its a bit outdated but you see the implications especially for audio work.

It is an arguement that is used and soon after nullified, i remember it being used a lot with openoffice when it was first released but 1.1 introduced exporting to pdf and a host of other features, its much more than it will just do. And if office is needed it works perfectly well using crossover office.

Dreamweaver and flash both now work well using crossover.

again same with firebird, imho its exceeded IE, its standards complaints and stuff works properly.

one thing it definately does do is remove bloat, and if the specification for the advanced bit in hardware is made its usually made available.

K3B for cd burning / dvd burning / dvd ripping + encoding.

want to rip a cd ?

stick in the cd open up konqueror and type in audiocd :/
the cd appears with an ogg folder and a mp3 folder drag and drop the folder and whack the cds ripped and encoded for you. Nice neh ?

As a development application platform it whoops ass, for server applications it whoops ass.
Kde is much more than it will do, it does and it does a lot more.
same with gnome.

Maybefor audio apps it doesnt do quite what you need, but then shouldnt you be taking it up with syntrillium maybe they would port it if you offered the 100 and others like you offered the 100 for a port.

So maybe you should rethink what you are about to type before making such a blanket statement.


Not very ... Final Scratch is for DJs .. you know, people who actually have turntables. It's amazing that people who say Windows is 'shit' will offer alternatives such as this as alternatives to Windows apps for which this isn't even REMOTELY related to, which shows how uninformed they really are. You may be able to do god-like things with bash and/or gcc, but you don't know shit about audio apps, so you shouldn't even be commenting in the first place.


No doubt i dont know shite about audio, im more into networking than anything else. I realised Final scratch didnt meet your need but it had to be said, cos i thought its a freaking cool app.
anyway back to the clones check here:

http://linux-sound.org/

and specifically:
http://linux-sound.org/snded.html

which has tonnes of sound file editors. audio cutter glame taon and sweep looked interesting, but then i have no idea of your needs, as you can see its definately a work in progress area.



I've tried it - it will install, but hangs on the splash screen when you start it up. If you can get it to run, you are most certainly a better man than I.


Well if i manage to get it running, ill give you the full info.


According to the site that was linked QTFairUse only works in Windows (?), and also requires Quicktime, so it at least needs that much in order to run.


but if itunes works in crossover that gets around it not being able to be played in linux,
http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/qtfairuse-mytunes-itune...
provides some info aswell.

also here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=2...


as reported on http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/34712.html Jon Lech Johansen added an extension to the http://www.videolan.org/ mediaplayer which allows to circumvent apples drm protections and make it possible to play protected *.m4p files on linux for example, which wasnt possible before

first reports say that apple seems to use XOR for encryption


amazing what a few quick searches turns up, and as you said yourself the link z1xq provided seems like a viable alternative anyway.


I never did comment on DeCSS, although I have to wonder where Linux would be with DVD support if they hadn't have cracked the encryption - makes me wonder about future technologies that are DRM-laced.


yeah i shoulda made that into a seperate thing it wasnt intended at you.. Dont worry about DRM it will be circumvented, probably would have near to no effect in linux.

@ darius part 2
by dopey on Sat 6th Mar 2004 04:39 UTC


I don't think it is an oppressive OS at all. Sure, there are certain limitations of it, such as not being able to view the source code, but I am not a programmer anyway. In fact, as much as I've played around with Linux, I haven't once glanced at the source - I have no need to.


Its an oppressive os in not only source code, but also freedoms, once you run windows you have to do things microsofts way,
all your information is subject to their over sight. What happens you click on the windows update button, can you say for sure they are not probing you ? what about the links to aleza etc.. giving away your browsing habits, why does an operating system need so much information about what you get up to ?

Its oppressive in that it cant stand competition and every competitor is crushed by either FUD, lawsuits (like they are trying with linux right now), technology is made available as they see fit, bug patches are made available as they see fit.

They outright buy competitors, This is all oppression. They were till recently threatning oem dealers such as dell that if they bundled another os with their systems they would be subject to paying full price for the licences.

That my friend is known as oppression. Keep competitors down by any means necessary, they go on like they own the whole computing industry or some shite.


The other so-called 'problems' relating to Windows, as I've said before, are only problems for those who do not know what they're doing. The ability to 'tame' Windows requires work, just like it does in Linux. The only difference is that the apps are generally much better over here.


Taming windows is a joke in itself, versions prior to win 2k where just jokes, there was no taming, they were just outright unpredictable. If you ever had the misfortune to work with nt4 you would understand what im saying (infact nt4 is what made me switch to linux outright, at the time i was waiting for win2k to be released i had a dual p2 system, win98 only supported 1 cpu, i ended up fiddling with redhat, then out right deleting windows for redhat, then deleting redhat for linux, in the process of learning redhat i competely destroyed installs many times, but i learnt fast)



Though it some ways Windows could be considered more oppressive, in other ways, it's less. For example, if a new piece of PC-compatible hardware is released tomorrow, I can go out and buy it right now, and know there there's a 99% chance that, not only will it work with my OS, but there will be drivers provided by the vendor in the package as well. Linux? Well, if you're lucky, the vendor might support it. If not, you can only hope that it uses a chipset that is already supported, or the device is some standad USB fare. If not, who knows how long it'll be until it works with Linux - maybe when somebody gets around to writing a driver for it. And even then the functionality is sometimes limited. For example, in Windows, there's a util I can pull up to find out how much ink is left in the printer, no such luck in Linux. Yeah, I know ... it's the vendor's fault. Well, here's a quater - call somebody who cares.


Its the rank evilness of the great Microsoft Empire that has made this situation exist. If the product is usb, 9/10 it will work straight out, in fact with long hard work most hardware now work outright with linux, in most cases better than with windows, i recently bought a card reader (2 of 1 for me 1 for my bro) it connects to usb headers in the case and then goes into 3.5" fdd supports 6 different forms of smart media, guess what i plugged it in and it worked in linux, my bro who runs windows had to find the drivers, (no drivers supplied) since it wasnt a big manufacturer took some searching.

Point out specific stuff that doesnt work, because the majority of the stuff works out of the box.. Throw the driver disk in the bin and just plug it in and it will probably just work. especially with the 2.6 kernel.

Infact case in point how long has it taken microsft to support the amd 64 line of cpus ?, 2.6 not only supported it but also supported the buffer overrun feature that was built into the amd64 cpus


"AMD's Athlon 64 and Opteron security features will work with Windows XP Service Pack 2's Data Execution Prevention feature to prevent buffer overrun exploits, ..."


so if i were to go out tommorow and buy an amd 64 based system all i would need to do is unplug this drive stick it into that one in the same place (eg as hda) and whack my system is up and running. infact ive already done that switching from xp 1800+ with via mobo to xp 2800+.

If the company that releases the hardware releases the specification the drivers will be available very quickly.

as for the inkjet utility thing believe it or not, lexmark (ibms company) have that feature with their line of printers for linux, and im pretty sure i had that same feature with the hp 3822 i recently bought it gave me ink warnings. So i guess you do get that feature in linux aswell, lets not forget as the popularity grows features like that will only get more commonplace, and half the time the warnings aint even perfectly legit, they complain if they cant understand the cartridge if you stick in a half used cartridge, it aint guaranteed it would get it right etc.



As for apps, pick almost any genre of desktop app and I've probably got at least 2 dozen in which to choose from.

So as for the whole oppressive thing, I guess it depends on your perspective. Though I hate the company, I generally like the platform, mainly because of the apps it runs.


and 3/4 of them are crap anyway, you get choice in apps if their not loaded with spyware that is. What apps do you use mostly ?
99% of whats available on windows is available for linux, some crap some good. same with windows.

4 am here now.. I gotta get back to my project and stop wasting time. Amazing the things youll do to not actually do any work.
amazing how bad my engrish gets. Sorry for all the grammatical and spelling mistakes, im tired.

@ darius
by dpi on Sat 6th Mar 2004 06:03 UTC

Dopey already said a lot i'd like to say, although i don't agree with everything. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in a discussion about Microsoft and ethics. Dopey, what he wants is an advanced sound editor which can edit wav's/mp3's, and such. VST hasn't been ported to Linux, but SkaleTracker (new FastTracker3) might pick that up.

I'd like to add that native ALSA in Linux kernel 2.6 is also an important improvement and that Konqueror or KDE isn't required to rip a CD; RipperX is for example a frontend to CDParanoia, and GNOME can do this as well natively IIRC (i don't run either of these DE's myself so don't pin me on this).

"The stuff I saw for CoolEdit is for an older version that I don't even have."

Uhm, at which version are then? We don't know shit? I know. I only use a few trackers. So suit yourself. Here are some suggestions.

ALSA database for ALSA-compatible applications
http://www.alsa-project.org/applications.php3

Freshmeat has a big database regarding sound editing
http://freshmeat.net/browse/120/

Or the general Freshmeat / Sound repository
http://freshmeat.net/browse/113/

This FAQ has an answer to what the most recommended sound production applications are
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/faq.php3#user

allofmp3.com
by z1xq on Sat 6th Mar 2004 18:48 UTC

www.allofmp3.com is a legal site. It has been around since 1997. They are a legal and reputable business. They are allowed to sell to whom they want as they own all the proper licenses. I researched this well before I used them. For $10 you get like 800mb of music.

@dpi
by Nicholas James on Sat 6th Mar 2004 18:52 UTC

Come on, I didn't need proof. SCO sues linux campanies, well hmm. MS who hates linux couldn't be helping them could they. Why get mad at me? If I was a lawyer or worked for a news agency I would of looked for proof. Really, who here didn't just know?

@ Nicholas James
by dpi on Sat 6th Mar 2004 20:26 UTC

"Come on, I didn't need proof."

Perhaps you don't need proof, that's your choice, but when you state it, you can expect people to ask you to back-up your wild assertions. The fact you don't need proof does not mean others believe such a claim without proof. There's nothing more convincing than proof!

"SCO sues linux campanies, well hmm. MS who hates linux couldn't be helping them could they."

There is a huge difference between could and are!

"If I was a lawyer or worked for a news agency I would of looked for proof."

That's all your choice as well, but you can't blame others for not believing conspiracy theories, speculations, and wild assertions even when you state rational theories about why it could be true.

"Really, who here didn't just know?"

Again there is a difference between knowing something (about facts, truth) and believing something (speculations, theories). I sincerely hope you're now convinced you were doing the latter: believing.

One can believe god exists, or aliens exists. Humanity commonly agrees this hasn't been proven, since not there's a huge discussion about these 2 belieces. Take the X-Files quote: i want to believe; that's about fiction.

One can however be sure humans have normally 2 legs, and that the earth is round, because this has been proven; scientifically. Until there is other proof which challenges these earlier 2 assertions, this is believed as true. People know the earth is round, people know humans have 2 legs. (Some religions (used to) blur this, or other facts, but that's besides the point).

"Why get mad at me?"

I'm not mad. I think you were so convinced that you believed it to be truth; others however, were not certain about this and there was nothing which backed it up. I did however have a problem when you clearly mixed up facts and beliefs. Hey, even i do think it's possible that MS has something to do with this, and there's some clue's. But to state i were all the time so certain about it, and knew it? No. And with this document i'm not convinced either because for one SCO acknowledges it quite fast, and for second because if it is true it is a tip of the iceberg; i want the details!

Like you said, lawyers and news agencies should search for the truth. I happen to have the opinion that people who are not in these specific positions should also look critically to what is stated as believe, and even assertions stated as fact. Instead of apathy. Take Groklaw as an example, you see, those are people who are not in either positions, but do research.

Fuel for the fire.
by Dark_Knight on Sat 6th Mar 2004 23:45 UTC

The point is that they were caught off guard and with their pants down. Even though they admitted the letter as being true, they now say it was a misunderstanding.

Day 1: Letter...what letter? Day 2: Yes your Honor the letter is true. Day 3: Sorry your Honor but I'd like to change my previous testimony and state the letter was taken out of context. ;)

Both SCO and M$ should be very afraid of being investigated by the SEC and Justice Department in light of this recent news. Specially since SCO is involved in a lenghtly legal battle with both their former UNIX clients, and the Linux community.

When will they ever learn to play fair? Obviously SCO and M$ are run by people who are greedy as Scrooge and dumb as a lemming.

Re: Fuel for the fire
by ryan on Sun 7th Mar 2004 17:10 UTC

The sec and doj under bush has demonstrated teeth as blunt as a butter knife. Lots of corporate criminals (ken lay) are running wild.

MS and SCO have nothing to fear from either the Doj or the SEC UNLESS kerry wins in november. Did you really think the MS settlement was anything to be proud of. "bad MS now don't do it again because if you do we'll just have to look the other way AGAIN."

If kerry wins then there could be trouble but the bushies will do to ms, sco as they've done with everything else investigate it so that it will go away and convict no one of anything.

I have to admit, though, that while i think the action is sleazy (if true) i am not sure it is necessarily illegal.