Linked by Andrew Davis on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:12 UTC
Linspire I admit that I'm a geek. I use Linux. I use Solaris. I use FreeBSD. At times, I use Windows. And without a doubt, I download and try almost every Linux distribution when they come out. Over the last few years, I've tried all of the RedHat/Fedora releases, 2 different Lindows/Linspire releases, Mandrake, Gentoo, Xandros, Suse, Ubuntu, and the list goes on.
Order by: Score:
v I love his closing words
by Mike on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:24 UTC
Possible?
by tijs on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:27 UTC

All well and good, but is this technically possible anyway? As he says himself, there is such a thing as dependency hell, so how on earth would Linspire be able to install their software properly on, say, Fedora or Debian, shortcuts and all?

Nice to See Linspire moving ahead
by Devilotx on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:30 UTC

While it will forever be battered by the linux comunity, you have to be impressed by Linspire's frontal "Attack" on Windows,

Lindows/Linspire was one of the first distro's I ever ran, my uncle is happily running Linspire on his computer and while I've moved away from running linspire to more "Robust" distro's, I'm still a CNR member and I await Linspire 5.0's release.

Linspire is quite nice...gnome would be nice though.
by ThreeHits on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:35 UTC

I've used Linspire in the past and have been quite impressed with the whole package. They are doing a great job of targeting the desktop.

I would like to see a gnome desktop option with their KDE option though as I think the theme they created for KDE is a little un-polished looking (and I prefer gnome). This is merely personal preference however, and does not take anything away from the distro. I like what they've done.

Debian
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:41 UTC

Well, Linspire might be cool for grandma but I can't say that I understand why anyone who claims to have some tech savvy would prefer a bastard child of Debian (Linspire, Xandros, etc.) to Debian itself.

I run unstable without any problems ("unstable" really is a misleading label) and update my whole system as often as I like for nothing. Debian has far more packages than Linspire does and I've had no problems chatting with package maintainers (whose reputation and pride is on the line) directly by email. That's service!

Too difficult and technical? Well, I have a law degree, not CS or science and manage it and so does my wife.

This is the second article by the wannabe CTO. He'd get a lot farther working out plans to save money and increase efficiency for corporations and making a reputation than by writing fluff for OSNEWS.

Desipite that...
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:47 UTC

Despite that, do you really think that the average John Smith will *ever* give a package maintainer an email? Nope. Thats why Linspire is doing well, and will continue to do so. It is making the interface to do things short enough that every John, Jill and Fred can install new applications the "Windows Way". Average people want things to work, and to work simply and fast. Linspire is delivering that.

Re: Possible?
by kde_user on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:47 UTC

>All well and good, but is this technically possible anyway? >As he says himself, there is such a thing as dependency >hell, so how on earth would Linspire be able to install >their software properly on, say, Fedora or Debian, >shortcuts and all?

Re-build the packages for each system you want to support and make sure it works on that system. Click n run will handle the dependencies for you just as apt or yum or yast does.

By the way, dependency hell need not exist on any of the major distros such as suse, rehat, mandrake, (your favorite distro). They all come with a front end for package management which handles the dependencies for you. If I download software built for suse 9.1, I can click on it and it will automatically display information on the package and give me an option to install it. It will be installed with yast, and as long as the package was built with the library versions which are included with the distro, it will be installed without a problem. If you are missing some dependencies, yast will figure it out and fetch and install them as well.

So the main requirement for distributing software for a distro is to make sure it works with that distro and the
libraries that are included in the distro, not with some upgraded versions of the same libraries. That's not too much to ask for.

RE: Desipite that...
by TLy on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 20:59 UTC

I bet with a little tender love 'n care, Synaptic could be user friendly enough to be a package manager that the average user can weild.

Even if these commercial distros don't commit code back into their parent distro (Linspire has roots in Debian doesn't it?) the other distros can still follow by their example.

I used it as well.
by bullethead on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:02 UTC

I used Linspire and Lindows (When it was called that) a couple of times. I really liked Linspire. The problem was that I like to tinker around and since everything just "worked" and I had no trouble I quickly re-installed other distros. It was frustrating having everything work well for some reason.

I think Linspire is the one true home user's Linux based desktop. It can do whatever you want without any effort. All you have to do is pay your money and you get a quality assured OS. I have in my library Red Hat 4.0 and thousands of dollars worth of Linux distro boxed sets. I have also downloaded every distro that ever had some kind of buzz going (Libranet, Xandros, Novell Desktop, JDS the list goes on and on) and none of them fit my needs for home use like Linspire had. The key here is all you really need is a net connection and an index finger to click and install applications. Ease of use and convenience is what sets Linspire apart from the other distros. I too await version 5.0 I am interested in checking it out.

why nobody loves mandrake ?
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:11 UTC

I don't understand, each weeks someone is trying to sell his own experience with xandros, linspire, or whatever slakware/debian based distro is on the wind this week and they compared it with redhat/fedora/suse/whatever but never with mandrake ?
according to distro watch, mandrake is the most downloaded distro, the most polished one and for sure the one who works the most easily out of the box (adsl, tv card, capture card, whatever you want)
if you follow the steps from easy urpmi in http://plf.zarb.org you've got instant acces to everything via urpm.....

Really, I don't want to start a new flameware but why ?



Djamé


RE: Debian
by Lumbergh on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:14 UTC

Well, Linspire might be cool for grandma but I can't say that I understand why anyone who claims to have some tech savvy would prefer a bastard child of Debian (Linspire, Xandros, etc.) to Debian itself.

Because people with more technical saavy than you get sick of dicking around with their system and in the case of a new install just want things to work out of the box. I run straight debian unstable on my colinux (www.colinux.org) and Ubuntu (a bastard child of debian) on another partition. It's long past the time where people respect you anymore because you're working a "harder" distro.

I run unstable without any problems ("unstable" really is a misleading label) and update my whole system as often as I like for nothing. Debian has far more packages than Linspire does and I've had no problems chatting with package maintainers (whose reputation and pride is on the line) directly by email. That's service!

You can run any distro you want and what other people run is none of your business quite frankly. And since you admit that you have a law degree and aren't that technical, let me inform you that there is a lot more polishing going on with Ubuntu or Linspire than just straight debian as well as specific patches that aren't in straight debian.


This is the second article by the wannabe CTO. He'd get a lot farther working out plans to save money and increase efficiency for corporations and making a reputation than by writing fluff for OSNEWS.


Why nobodies on the internet feel compelled to try and give people advice on how they should do their job when they don't know them or why not to write articles is beyond me. I guess it's severe psychological problems.



Re: Why nobody loves mandrake?
by Lumbergh on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:21 UTC

Well, if distro watch is correct and Mandrake is the number one downloaded distro, then why even pose the question, when it's obvious that many people do "love" Mandrake.?

An interesting thought. I might be persauded to pay 5 bucks for 30 day's access to a repository of software for my current distribution, but only if it as software not available elsewhere and if it had actually been tested on that distribution.

I want to take exception with the statement that Microsoft's "anti-competitive, monopolistic practices" are responsible for the fact that you can buy Windows software with an expectation that it will work on Windows. You can also buy Macintosh software, too, with the same expectation, but Apple certainly doesn't dominate the PC software market like Microsoft. It's the developers who write and market the software that are responsible for that. Why? Because it is in their interests to sell software that actually works. These are commercial environments and people and corporations make their money marketing software. That's not the case in a large, perhaps predominant, portion of the Linux arena. Part of the ethos of Linux and open source is that developers write the code that they, as individuals, want to write. If it works for them, but no one else, tough, that's the end of it. The developer has no incentive to repair or improve his work. This doesn't apply, certainly, to commericial distributions like SUSE and RedHat, or to Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu and other distributions supported and maintained by large numbers of responsible people, some of whom are actually drawing salaries.

Linspire
by Jay on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:24 UTC

Well it's based on top of Debian so I doubt they have any more packages really than Debian does (which has the most of any distribution). Of course, the Linspire people throw in their own extra things which would make the package count higher than Debian if they're including all of those packages to begin with.

Linspire's Repo
by PO on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:37 UTC

Linspire is completley useless, concidering it' s impossible to use Debian's own repos. Why bother. If you must choose Xandros/Linspire, Xandros playes nicely, while Linspire's users are left completely dependent on C&R. Plus, Xandro's touch is much more refined than Linspire's amazingly ugly design.

RE: Why nobody loves mandrake?
by k4ever on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:38 UTC

I'm looking for a Linspire to Mandrake comparison myself. The author only mentioned Mandrake one time in the whole story and it wasn't for comparison. I've used Mandrake since 7.0 and although I've tried other distros, Mandrake is still the best for me. What is there to Linspire that will make me want to switch? That's what I would like to know.

Ubuntu
by Dominik on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:53 UTC

I'm using Ubuntu Hoary (the development branch) and with synaptic and the polished desktop I've found the perfect distro for me. I'm looking forward to the new Ubuntu installer, but even now Ubuntu is (imo) great for beginners.

Bad article!
by - on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 21:53 UTC

..and built buy a paid employee of a legitimate company instead of *some guy over Germany* that might've actually put a backdoor into his package.

uhhh... someone who says such stuff is an idiot imho. german coders are not worse than any other coders. and they do not live at te end of the world

now to more serious stuff:
the dependency hell is actually nonexistend with tools like apt-get or urpmi or emerge, so what does he try to tell us? that linux-computing has not advanced in the last years? that only linspire made progress? wake up.

i do not see, where installing packages is easier in linspire as in e.g. mandrake or debian. one click-install is nothing new in linux.

i do not see, why someone should pay for a "mediocre" distro like linspire if he/she can get imho better distros for free. mandrake is imho better than linspire, same with suse, ubuntu or yoper.

if he does not like the fedora-bluecurve style, that is his very own "taste-problem". thousands of users like it. and it does not look like win 3.11 at all. has this guy ever used a win3.11 box?

finally: does this guy get paid from linspire??? it reads like an advertizement, not like a serious article.

two thumbs down.

some guy over Germany?
by Harcalion on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:02 UTC

I thought SuSe was a company so strong and growing that Novell had to pay 210 million dollars for it, but maybe they were a bunch of guys over Germany doing rpm's...

erm...
by AdamW on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:04 UTC

With properly configured remote sources, both YaST on SuSE and rpmdrake on Mandrake have been doing this for years. What's the big deal? I want to install, I dunno, mono...well, I personally would type urpmi mono, but you can just as easily run rpmdrake (from the KDE or GNOME menu or MDK control centre), browse to or search for 'mono', click on the tick box next to it, and then click install. Bang, done. It ain't revolutionary. Oh, and doesn't synaptic do the same for debian?

CNR and KDE themes
by John Blink on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:10 UTC

Can you get KDE themes from the CNR?.

Also for those few gtk apps they use, do they aleast theme them to look similar to the KDE themes?

oh, I see
by AdamW on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:11 UTC

He doesn't like the currently available range of packages for some distros. Eh. For MDK all the quoted examples are available in either main, contrib, or plf; the first two are official repositories with Mandrakesoft-published GPG keys. PLF is semi-official and most of the people who package for it are the same as main and contrib. You could never have a 'legitimate' source with a freely downloadable dvdcss package, anyway, it's just not legally going to happen. I guess if you make it paid, but then, who's gonna pay $5 a month just for a 'legal' dvdcss lib?

bundled software
by haha on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:18 UTC

Ha,in this article the author raises again the argument of free software, bundled with os, but what's the point, if anyone can freely download and use OO, mozilla/FireFox/Thunderbird, even AbiWord, or, for true perverts, vi on Windows? And almost any app is available - so using Windows one's getting best of both worlds - high quality software, both commercial and open-source/gnu/whatever.
And there's one more thing, if one's regularly buying/upgrading his distro, he/she pays not less than he/she would for Windows - suse isn't free, upgrades too, and they come out at least two or three times a year, xandros isn't free either as well as RHEL - service packs for Windows are free b.t.w. And if one choose to use free distro, one would pay with his time - learning/tweaking and so on.
And, finally, viruses - I believe, that if Linux (or whatever os) is going to get 90-95 of desktop os marketshare, there would be plenty of them.

RE: why nobody loves mandrake ?
by Metic on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:18 UTC

Well, but don't many people love Mandrake, especially many newbies? I think here's no doubt about that. Mandrake also has fine goals, like newbie friendly ease of use. But many people have often been put off by the amount of bugs and other such problems in many Mandrake releases. Prejudice not based on facts? Well, if Mandrake is really so extra stable, why have they shipped their official distro releases with unstable test versions of kernels, for example?

It's been similar policy with other software often too, Mandrake - and many other distributors - want too much to be the first in town to ship with some bleeding edge versions of software. Maybe it is the fault of geeky users and their geeky needs too to some extent... Leave the most bleeding edge unstable software to developers, testers, or to those who are not serious users but just want to play with software. And concentrate on stability and reliablity more.

If Linus says that a kernel is not stable, a responsible Linux distributor believes him and don't want to distribute/sell bugs to their customers, right? This kind of reliability is something that every distro maker and user should consider more. Linux is not just a hobby OS for geeks anymore.

Linux distributions should be more like Debian (and many derivatives) in this sense: install once and basically you will never need to do a clean reinstall again, not even after many years of use. I don't know how well Linspire manages in this sense, but it is based on Debian, so at least the basis is good.

Even if a stable and reliable distro were a bit more difficult to install and configure, most users would be more than happy after passing those first hurdles if only that distro proves to be reliable enough for daily use, and for years to come too. Now, and in the end, isn't that what true ease of use is too?

@lumbergh:
by AdamW on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:23 UTC

"It's long past the time where people respect you anymore because you're working a "harder" distro."

Sadly not true. People often don't understand why I still use Mandrake after several years; there are still people out there who think there's some kind of 'obligation' to upgrade to a more 3l33t distro like debian or gentoo after some kind of 'training wheels' period with a non-l33t distro like MDK or SuSE.

note - I'm not knocking debian or gentoo. They're fine distributions and there are many reasons to love them. But they're not innately more 'l33t' or 'cool' or 'hardcore' than any other distro. Sorry, cool kids.

Distrowatch
by Metic on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:28 UTC

according to distro watch, mandrake is the most downloaded distro, the most polished one

Like the Distrowatch maintainer has often said the DW page hit meter cannot be taken too seriously. For sure it doesn't tell anything about downloads of distros. It only tells how many visitors each distro specific DW subpage has got within a certain time frame.

Mandrake is one of the biggest and best known distros around the world, especially known for its newbie friendliness for a long time, so it's natural that especially many people new to Linux may check the Mandrake pages there.

Besides, Something called Linux XP used to be one of the "top" distros in the DistroWatch Page Hit Count too. It was obviously just that magical two letter combination "XP" that brought enough clicks for that particular page, although almost nobody seemed to have even tried that distro...

One of the main reasons CNR works as well as it does is because it works with a set and known OS (Linspire), with all the known menu's, layouts, dependencies, etc. CNR with an rpm-based system would be extremely difficult. Yes, conceptually this would be great (and we'd love to be able to offer that), but from a practical standpoint, it would be extremely costly and a huge technical challenge.

We have done tests, and even apt only works about 50% of the time if you start messing too much with the OS. CNR has a 97% success rate, because it knows where it's going to land.

Maybe one day we'll be up for that challenge, but for now, CNR is a Linspire only thing.

I completely agree with the author, however, about the idea of each OS having their strengths and target audience. I know most geeks hated AOL, but it was always the one they recommended to their mom because they didn't want the support problems. Fortunately for AOL, that allowed them to become the #1 ISP with around 30 million subscribers. Linspire is sort of the AOL of Linux...so easy to use, no wonder it's #1. =)

I even know several "geeks" who use Linspire too now. They dislike broken dependencies, lack of hardware detection, etc., as much as anyone.

Kevin Carmony
President, Linspire, Inc.

$4.95 is $60 per year forever
by Siegfried on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:39 UTC

You can get Xandros for free through BitTorrent and you get access to their full archive which contains almost all the same packages that you have to pay to use from Linspire. You only have to pay for commercial apps or for some of the latest cutting edge released apps. $60 per year doesn't seem like good value for stuff that is available free on Xandros or Debian.

I'd stick with Xandros who spends a lot more effort making things work whereas Linspire spends all their effort trying to sell you stuff that is already mostly free. Besides, Linspire was initially based on Xandros so why buy the imitation when you can get the original.

what, no Slackware?
by Indech on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:42 UTC

How dare the author not mention Slackware as one of the 133t.

Seriously though, Linspire is a good distro in its own way. While I would never use it, there are many people that need a simpler distro to ever use GNU/Linux, as they struggle enough with Windows.

However, I have to wonder what the author was thinking when he said that Linspire should develop CNR for other distros. GNU/Linux distros have way too many subtle differences in their layout, and there would be no feasible/cost efficient way to tinker the packages to fit each distro. It wouldn't be appreciated and it would waste Linspire's resources.

re:what, no Slackware?
by haha on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 22:49 UTC

Slackware is fast and simple, that's good ;)
By the way, why do people struggle with windows - that's obvious, they're too lazy to read a book on the subject, even built-in help, so, I'm afraid, that Linux is simply impossible for use in home or otherwise unmanaged environment.

re: big boss of linspire
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 23:02 UTC

I even know several "geeks" who use Linspire too now. They dislike broken dependencies, lack of hardware detection, etc., as much as anyone.

Kevin Carmony
President, Linspire, Inc.

i dunno but listing your employees as "geeks" who deliberately use linspire is imho somehow disturbing. it is their job to work with/on linspire. ;)

What Linspire hasn't got.
by Dark_Knight on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 23:09 UTC

1. Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have.

2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members.

3. Linspire does not follow simple standards such as not charging consumers to access software that is freely available with other Linux distributions.

4. Linspire lacks a flexible EULA and seems more Microsoft like in their license offerings. Unlike the license agreements that Novell and Red Hat offer consumers, both of which work to follow the GNU/GPL.

5. Linspire lacks support for current hardware such as Intel P4/Xeon w/EMT64, AMD Opteron/64-FX, current graphics cards, etc. Both Novell and Red Hat offer a wider support base for hardware than Linspire and as such better suited not only for home consumers but also enterprise.

6. Linspire lacks good distributor support. Unlike Novell and Red Hat that have support from companies IBM, HP, etc.

7. Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers.

8. TCO is higher with Linspire when compared to Novell and Red Hat.

9. Linspire and Debian based distributions in general lack support from the entertainment industry and their software suppliers. Where as Novell and Red Hat are the leading companies used by studios and their highend software developers.

@matic:
by AdamW on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 23:57 UTC

Because 'unstable' test releases of kernels are often stable enough. MDK's never shipped with a development branch kernel or anything. Given the reliability of the kernel, 2.4.25-rc3 of the kernel is likely to be a hell of a lot more reliable than the 1.0 release of Joe Random App, but that's a 'stable' release so it's fine! ;)

Most of the problems in Mandrake that people have really hated haven't been upstream like this, they've been things like the crappy supermount that used to be used, or installer bugs. The only rank bad kernel I can remember MDK shipping was 9.2. (I hated 9.2. Let's pretend it never happened.)

@matic (further)
by AdamW on Mon 22nd Nov 2004 23:59 UTC

The idea of not reinstalling has little to do with your initial points and much more to do with packaging policies and package management. It's entirely possible on Mandrake, too. My laptop hasn't had a clean install since MDK 9.0; it runs Cooker and is updated more or less daily, it's now running Cooker everything (including XFce 4.2) happily. The problem of how cutting-edge you want to be isn't easy. Look at the fuss that came up here and elsewhere because MDK 10.1 shipped GNOME 2.6 and KDE 3.2 instead of GNOME 2.8 and KDE 3.3, for instance, despite the newness of those releases.

Misc
by Claus on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 00:04 UTC

"And you must buy your DVD player software,..."
I don't run Windows but I'm pretty sure Windows Media Player can play DVD's and is free - no differently than say mplayer before decss.

"*some guy over Germany* that might've actually put a backdoor into his package"
Watch the language - american! (I'm assuming so) I actually use Packman, I'm grateful for the site, I have the greatest confidence in the site - actually more than any american site - and the site really doesn't deserve crap like that. Not that I think that they care - knowing it's from an american. Remember, a lot of Linux is actually from Germany or close by - KDE, Qt, OpenOffice, a lot of multimedia (xine, mplayer, cd burning, ...), Knoppix, Reiser, ddd, etc.

I like the idea of a subscription based update service. I will support it and I think all distributors should give it a shot.

Linspire vs. Ubuntu
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 00:19 UTC

Personally, I think Linspire produced a product that caters better to the consumer world, but fits awkwardly in the open source world, but that doesn't prevent it from being a great product to introduce novice users to linux.

So open source people, please note that other people have to make a living somehow and providing people with convenience is a perfectly legitimate way to earn money.

why?
by KRiSX on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 00:49 UTC

ok.. i dont know if this has been said before.. but why on earth would you pay for software that is meant to be free?

that is all i have to say ;)

re: claus
by Devilotx on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 00:51 UTC

"I don't run Windows but I'm pretty sure Windows Media Player can play DVD's and is free - no differently than say mplayer before decss. "

Wrong!

on the windows installer it even says "Play DVD's with Media Player 9 With a 3rd party decoder"

and for the people saying "Apt" this or "urpmi" that... your not looking at the picture, your paying 5 bucks a month for the ease and convienince of CNR, not for access to the applications, one click, its insalled, all the short cuts are there, bang... easy ...

Thats what you pay for.

Re: Bad Article -- The Real Dependency Problem
by enloop on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 00:59 UTC

Tools like apt and urpmi can't magically eliminate dependency conflicts. Sure, they can read a database or a file and pull down the files someone else previously determined are dependencies for a given package. But if Package A requires Files A, B, and C, while Package B won't work if Files A, B, and C are present, no dependency resolver is going to help you install both Package A and Package B.

That's the real dependency problem, and it has nothing to do with the dependency resolver someone might use and everything to do with the way software is developed and maintained.

@Dark_Knight & @KRiSX
by enloop on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:09 UTC

Dark Knight:

Everything you listed is accurate, and completely irrelevant to singleton Windows users taking their first look at Linux.

KRiSX: It has been repeated here ad infinitum, but...the "free" in free software has nothing at all to do with price. It is all about the freedom of the source code itself. If you abide by the license, you can stick emacs on a CD and sell it for $1000 a pop if you wanna. More to the point, the notion that free software's raison d'etre is to allow people to get software without paying for it will ruin the whole thing in the long run.

F.U.D. Alert!
by Kevin Carmony on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:10 UTC

1. Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have.

True. Linspire believes that the consumer should set standards, not big business. We believe open source is about what the people want, not what Novell and Red Hat want.

2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members.

Ditto.

3. Linspire does not follow simple standards such as not charging consumers to access software that is freely available with other Linux distributions.

We believe some people want and appreciate paying for services that make their life easier. That's why they buy bottled water, hamburgers at McDonalds, pay to have their hair cut, their food grown, and their clothes sewn...all things that anyone can do for free if they have the skill and free time.

Linspire believes Linux should be available to EVERYONE, not just the technical wizards. People who work on cars for a living never understand why someone would pay Jiffy Lube $30 to change the oil in their car either. =)

4. Linspire lacks a flexible EULA and seems more Microsoft like in their license offerings. Unlike the license agreements that Novell and Red Hat offer consumers, both of which work to follow the GNU/GPL.

FUD. We use GPL/GNU software, so of course our EULA incorporates that fully.

5. Linspire lacks support for current hardware such as Intel P4/Xeon w/EMT64, AMD Opteron/64-FX, current graphics cards, etc. Both Novell and Red Hat offer a wider support base for hardware than Linspire and as such better suited not only for home consumers but also enterprise.

FUD. Linspire is dedicated to desktop computing, not servers, and installs on more desktop computers than Red Hat or Novell. We have a giant QA lab to prove it if you'd like to come for a visit.

6. Linspire lacks good distributor support. Unlike Novell and Red Hat that have support from companies IBM, HP, etc.

Mondo FUD here. When it comes to DESKTOP computing, no one can beat Linspire's OEM and distribution channel. Linspire has over 350 OEM's that sell computers pre-loaded with Linspire. There are very few places you can walk into and buy a Red Hat or Novell desktop/laptop computer. There are over 1,000 retail locations in North and South America that you can walk into and purchase a Linspire computer (Fry's, Micro Center, PC Club, Electra, etc.) as well as many on-line retailers (WalMart.com, Staples.com, etc.).

7. Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers.

FUD. We offer 24/7 world class support.

8. TCO is higher with Linspire when compared to Novell and Red Hat.

FUD. Someone sounds like Ballmer now. =)

9. Linspire and Debian based distributions in general lack support from the entertainment industry and their software suppliers. Where as Novell and Red Hat are the leading companies used by studios and their highend software developers.

Novell and Red Hat have excellent SERVER and ENTERPRISE products, but when it comes to DESKTOP computing, Linspire's focus shows.

Kevin

Why?
by Kevin Carmony on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:19 UTC

"ok.. i dont know if this has been said before.. but why on earth would you pay for software that is meant to be free?"

Two reasons...

1. Time is money.
2. Not everyone is a computer wiz.

It's the same reason we pay to have someone else cut our hair, even though we could do it ourselves.

Try this experiment...

Take an average computer user. Set a computer running Linux in front of them. Tell them to install GIMP.

Now, come back a day later and it still won't be installed. (Remember, I said "average" computer user...you know, the receptionist at your office, your mom, your uncle, your barber, etc.)

Should these people be forced to spend all that time learning how to do this? Or could they pay for a "service" to do this for them? Should they be forced to learn to cut their own hair? Or should they have the OPTION of paying someone to do this for them?

We believe Linux has value to everyone, not just the technical minds. We have 85 full-time employees working to make Linux easy and accessible to the non-technical user. We charge a fair price for this service, just as your barber, baby sitter, McDonalds, Red Hat, Novell, or Jiffy Lube charges for the services they provide.

Kevin

RE:why? @ KRiSX
by John Blink on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:21 UTC

ok.. i dont know if this has been said before.. but why on earth would you pay for software that is meant to be free?

that is all i have to say ;)


Don't you get it. The software is free. You are paying for the CNR service ;)

Don't people buy the SUSE box set? I know there is a free ftp download. But you don't get everything included in the box set. Therefore SUSE is no different when it comes to paying for "free" software.

@ Dark_Knight
by John Blink on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:50 UTC

1. Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have.

and how does it affect there product offering.
Also does Debian use LSB?
http://help.linspire.com/cgi-bin/lindows.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.ph...

2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members.

Again how does it affect there product offering. BTW what Debian has Linspire inherits.
http://www.freestandards.org/modules.php?name=Content2&pa=showpage&...

Also Linspire is a company and if mom and pop and Joe geekiness himself needed to run Oracle or whatever, they would see if it is the best interests of all mom's and pop's.


3. Linspire does not follow simple standards such as not charging consumers to access software that is freely available with other Linux distributions.

As I said to someone before the software is free, you pay for the CNR service which is a free download (eg. You can get Linspire for free via bittorent). In this regard they are no different to the holy SUSE.

Just like SUSE this service pays there staff, sponsors KDE, Reiserfs, and anything I am not familiar with.


4. Linspire lacks a flexible EULA and seems more Microsoft like in their license offerings. Unlike the license agreements that Novell and Red Hat offer consumers, both of which work to follow the GNU/GPL.
I am not fluent in legalese. Where can I get a copy of this EULA.

5. Linspire lacks support for current hardware such as Intel P4/Xeon w/EMT64, AMD Opteron/64-FX, current graphics cards, etc. Both Novell and Red Hat offer a wider support base for hardware than Linspire and as such better suited not only for home consumers but also enterprise.
As soon as Debian has a stable offering I am sure SUSE can package things to suit this platform.

BTW have you ever heard of product consistency, stability, reliability. Why do you think Linspire 5.0 isn't out yet?

6. Linspire lacks good distributor support. Unlike Novell and Red Hat that have support from companies IBM, HP, etc.

So? HP has only just put SUSE 9.1 on a laptop, and I believe those enhancements filtered into the 9.2 product.

Something wrong with these computers. That Northgate L-series looks a bit like an old Compaq desktop.
http://www.linspire.com/lindows_feature_preinstall.php

7. Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers.
Enterprise support? Or community support?

8. TCO is higher with Linspire when compared to Novell and Red Hat.
Again enterprise or consumer TCO.
I think the annual plan is good compared to the monthly.
http://www.linspire.com/trialmember_info.php
http://www.linspire.com/trialmember_renewalplan.php

9. Linspire and Debian based distributions in general lack support from the entertainment industry and their software suppliers. Where as Novell and Red Hat are the leading companies used by studios and their highend software developers.

Are you talking about movie production software? Or media the Linspire licensed movie players codecs.

Linspire is a good opensource citizen. Most arguments you have presented against can easily be rebuttled.

Woops
by John Blink on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:52 UTC

Change
"As soon as Debian has a stable offering I am sure SUSE can package things to suit this platform."

to

"As soon as Debian has a stable offering I am sure Linspire can package things to suit this platform."

:B

Kavin Carmony
by DarkMavis on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 01:56 UTC

Kevin - Thanks for taking the time out to respond to some of the comments posted in this forum. I've never seen another company work as hard as Linspire at making sure the consumer is informed by participating in public forums.

I've installed Linspire and it's my main computer now. CNR is fantastic. I remember the days of having to install applications manually. What a drag! Now, I'm able to install AND uninstall with just one click. I also don't understand why some linux users become so irate and hostile with those who don't use the same distro as they use. I don't see Linspire users in any of these forums bashing RedHat, Novell, Mepis, etc. users.

Lastly, my sister was being crushed DAILY by viruses on her Windows 2000 machine. Yes, she was running an anti-virus program and using a firewall but it soon became too much for her. She now runs Linspire exclusively and leaves her computer on all the time without any trouble. She's virus free and more productive than she could have ever imagined. You can't argue with success like that.

'Nuff said....

Thanks
by Kevin Carmony on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:05 UTC

Thanks for the support.

Novell and Red Hat are great companies with great products...for THEIR niche's.

Did you know, all the CNR servers, in fact ALL our servers here at Linspire and in our Data Center run using Red Hat?

Did you know that our Intranet uses Novell's (SuSE's) Open Exchange for our group calendaring, etc.?

It's on the DESKTOP that Linspire shines. It's all we do. We eat, sleep and drink the DESKTOP. We have 85 full-time, hard-working, dedicated employees that do nothing but try and make the Linux experience better on the DESKTOP.

It's what we do. And we hope we do it well. We're not for everyone, but hopefully we provide value to those who fit inside our target market.

Thanks,

Kevin

re: Why?
by haha on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:40 UTC

That's righ, time is money and money is tight, then why pay for Linspire with unpredictable outcome, if one can pay for Windows, which is already familiar, has wide hardware and application support, tons of supporting documentation and literature and qualified admins and helpdesks ready to support Windows based networks?
Could you explain me plese?

re: Why?
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:51 UTC

>why pay for Linspire if one can pay for Windows

Windows + Office + Antivirus + DVD player + CD/DVDburning + [...]

Maybe if I were rich...
(or are you saying paying for pirate copies?)

v gone
by AhronZombi on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:57 UTC
re:re: Why?
by haha on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:58 UTC

O.K. What stops you from using OpenOffice, 7-Zip, AVG or Avast antivirus, SmartFTP, Mozilla or FireFox, don't remember names for cd-rw progs, though there's built in cd writing capabilities in xp?
And if you need command line shell (good thing, I agree) - just google for msh / monad - you'll be amazed (I know what I'm talking about as I'm beta-tester and it's amazing, even compared to bash/zsh/csh, which I've used in the past and definately love).

@HaHa
by enloop on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 02:59 UTC

You're question wasn't directed at me, and I don't even use Linspire, but you're begging the question. If someone is motivated to wipe out Windows and install another operating system, then all the points you made are irrelevant.

In particular, asserting the existence of "...qualified admins and helpdesks ready to support Windows based networks" has no bearing on whether or not a singleton home user keeps Windows. They've got no network, no admins, and no helpdesk.

Linspire looks to me to be a product with a focus on that kind of user, and CNR seems to be a cheap and effective way of performing an onerous but necessary task: Installing software. If more Linux distributions would concentrate on the desktop and forget about the server market, we'd see more widespread use of Linux.

@enloop
by haha on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 03:08 UTC

Well, many people really do have small home networks and they usually need help, so it's not completely irrelevant.
Anyway, I can't understand, what can motivate someone to "wipe out Windows" - I can understand if one's buing a new computer and considering the options, that's o.k, but why would one wipe out something already bought, already familiar? I noticed that most vocal critics of Windows don't have a clue how to use it and what kind of features it has, even what's already included in the package!
I'd agree that Windows XP Home is crippled and doesn't worth it's money, but Pro is amazing system, if you know how to use it, of course ;)
oh, well, everything above is definately IMHO ;)

RE:What Linspire hasn't got.
by tymiles on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 03:11 UTC

1. Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have.

You are right about this but they are working on that for version 5 and get this from Debian anyway.

2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members.

They get that from Debian also.

3. Linspire does not follow simple standards such as not charging consumers to access software that is freely available with other Linux distributions.

They don't charge for the Apps themselves, what they charge for is the ability to Click and Run, get e-mail and light phone support, and also get nice discounts on Star office (Same things Xandros charge for)

4. Linspire lacks a flexible EULA and seems more Microsoft like in their license offerings. Unlike the license agreements that Novell and Red Hat offer consumers, both of which work to follow the GNU/GPL.

Same as Xandros, it's mostly to cover their Apps like LPhoto, LSongs and Click and Run.

5. Linspire lacks support for current hardware such as Intel P4/Xeon w/EMT64, AMD Opteron/64-FX, current graphics cards, etc. Both Novell and Red Hat offer a wider support base for hardware than Linspire and as such better suited not only for home consumers but also enterprise.

They have a VERY stable OS and are not rushing out their new version that will cover most the the hardware you name. I am sorry but Linspire is much more easy to use then Novell Linux Desktop and Red Hat. It was very easy to show my mother how to use the OS, make changes, use click and run etc. Red Hat has never made a user friendly version for the desktop. I mean when you can just install Linspire in 10 minutes, get it up on the network, log into click and run, go to your programs, select all (I have like 150 apps) and say install, then go get a cup of Java. Come back in thirty and it's all done including installing apps like Star Office etc. You can't beat that because no other package manager keeps a database of what you have installed in the past, what updates you need before you even get logged in etc (Pops up a message telling you what you have that needs to be updated as soon as you get on the network.

6. Linspire lacks good distributor support. Unlike Novell and Red Hat that have support from companies IBM, HP, etc.

None of them have this for the desktop!

7. Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers.

You can get good support if you want to pay for it. It's a desktop OS so you are not going to get enterprise support of course for a home desktop.

8. TCO is higher with Linspire when compared to Novell and Red Hat.

You can get Linspire for free just like Novell. But getting updates etc cost more on Novell then Linspire (Novell is about 55.00 per seat for updates and support). The Red Hat desktop costs like $2500 just to start (With support and five licenses if I am not mistaken) Linspire costs to businesses about $27 a seat for 100-500 users (One time fee not yearly, as long as you keep click and run you get all the OS updates and upgrades for for the click and run fee which is $23 a machine for 100-500 users) So in the first year as opposed to novell you save about $5 a machine. But in the second year you save $28 a machine. And yes you can get hands on support, Linspire has a whole section for consultants. You just look in your area and you can find companies and or consultants who can come in and do support for you. Which is what Novell and RedHat do also.

9. Linspire and Debian based distributions in general lack support from the entertainment industry and their software suppliers. Where as Novell and Red Hat are the leading companies used by studios and their highend software developers.

Linspire was one of the first Linux OS to sell legal Codec for DVD playback, for Real Player support (Outside of the real player application) and now Windows Media player (Even though Turbo Linux offered that one first)

If a worm or virus hits your machine or you are SICK and tired of Spyware!

Those are the reasons most of the people I have converted to Linspire and/or Xandros use them. They are just plain tired!

Most of them to be honest would rather use macs but can't afford them, so what is the next best way to get out of Spyware hell. You could install XP SP2 but if you already had spyware when you upgraded guess what? Now you are stuck with it. Or you could have your friend (Like me) Install Linspire, update them with my click and run, have them pay the $5 a month for support and updates and let them roll!

@devilotx:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 03:23 UTC

And as I said, rpmdrake does exactly the same thing; one click, installed, everything's on the menu. (There's a Mandrake policy that any app you're even vaguely likely to want to have a menu entry for, gets one. This is why the MDK menu structure is so frickin' huge. It scales well.) No monthly fee.

@kevin:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 03:28 UTC

"We eat, sleep and drink the DESKTOP"

Wow, I'm amazed you guys are still alive. Are the desks at Linspire HQ made of tasty wholesome tofu? ;)

@tymiles
by haha on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 03:31 UTC

You know, I use computers for about 15 years now, and what is the most interesting, had a virus only once, in 96 or 97, don't remember. I can only wonder how and where people get it.
And that's not Windows' fault that people don't use secondary logon for administrative tasks. If you going to do your everyday work as root on *nix-like system, you'll get the same result - don't you think so?
And, as i recall, Linspire, when it was Lindows, had a bad habit of making it's user root by default ;) Hope they improved it now.

Re: What Linspire hasn't got. @Kevin Carmony
by Dark_Knight on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 04:05 UTC

Re: Point #1 & #2: "True. Linspire believes that the consumer should set standards, not big business. We believe open source is about what the people want, not what Novell and Red Hat want."

What people want is standards. This is why LSB (Linux Standards Base) certification of Linux software, especially a Linux distribution is important to both enterprise and private sectors of the global market. Think of the LSB and FSG (Free Standards Group) being the united nations for Linux developers. They all work together on a common goal to make their Linux software more attractive and useful to consumers while following standards. This applies to whether your target is the desktop, workstation or server. For those here that are not aware what LSB certification is and how it is important not only to developers but also consumers please see the following links:

http://www.linuxbase.org/index.php

http://www.freestandards.org/

Re: Point #3: "We believe some people want and appreciate paying for services that make their life easier. That's why they buy bottled water, hamburgers at McDonalds, pay to have their hair cut, their food grown, and their clothes sewn...all things that anyone can do for free if they have the skill and free time. Linspire believes Linux should be available to EVERYONE, not just the technical wizards. People who work on cars for a living never understand why someone would pay Jiffy Lube $30 to change the oil in their car either."

True people will pay for things that will make their life easier. Though when it's typically known that when a consumer is shown that they can get that same ease of use with another competitors product at lower cost or even for free then the consumer is more likely to side with the competitor's product. Something for your company to consider since Linspire seems more like consumer lock in that cost consumers more in the long run than providing freedom and low cost.

Re: Point #4:"FUD. We use GPL/GNU software, so of course our EULA incorporates that fully."

Just because Linspire includes some open source software does not imply it's license is any less restrictive than that of Microsoft. Anyone who would like to know more about Linspire's EULA (End User License Agreement) and the GNU/GPL can see the links here:

Linspire EULA: http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_OSEULA.php

GNU/GPL: http://www.gnu.org/

Re: Point #5:"FUD. Linspire is dedicated to desktop computing, not servers, and installs on more desktop computers than Red Hat or Novell. We have a giant QA lab to prove it if you'd like to come for a visit."

Linspire listed processors: Total 4 and they are AMD Athlon XP 2000+, AMD Athlon XP 2500+, Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz, Intel P4 2.4B GHz. Found here http://www.linspire.com/linspire_hardware_compatibility.php

Novell and Red Hat processors: All AMD and Intel processors including support for workstation/server class with multiple processor configurations.

I could go into other hardware such as graphics cards but I think the readers can tell Novell and Red Hat beat your list of supported hardware. As for the tour I'll pass, thanks anyway.

Re: Point #6:"Mondo FUD here. When it comes to DESKTOP computing, no one can beat Linspire's OEM and distribution channel. Linspire has over 350 OEM's that sell computers pre-loaded with Linspire. There are very few places you can walk into and buy a Red Hat or Novell desktop/laptop computer. There are over 1,000 retail locations in North and South America that you can walk into and purchase a Linspire computer (Fry's, Micro Center, PC Club, Electra, etc.) as well as many on-line retailers (WalMart.com, Staples.com, etc.)."

There's a great deal of difference between purchasing a computer from say IBM with SuSE Linux or RHEL installed compared to purchasing a low end cheap machine at Walmart. For one IBM and others like them offer support services that Walmart and others like them cannot. That's something the consumer is concerned with.

Re: Point #7:"FUD. We offer 24/7 world class support."

I said Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers. Not that Linspire doesn't offer any support to the consumer. Take it as being constructive criticism.

Re: Point #8:"FUD. Someone sounds like Ballmer now. =)"

Actually no and it's this consumers opinion Linspire does not offer good TCO when compared to other distributions. Novell's SuSE Linux Professional for example comes with approx 4000 open source applications which costs a consumer less than purchasing a membership to Linspire's CNR Warehouse. Also the distribution is maintained for a minimum 2 years after release date. I could go into the other support offerings Novell and Red Hat offer but I'm sure readers can find that out for themselves on the respective developer sites.

Re: Point #9:"Novell and Red Hat have excellent SERVER and ENTERPRISE products, but when it comes to DESKTOP computing, Linspire's focus shows."

When it comes to online video tutorials about using a distribution then yes Linspire is good at that and also for offering an easy to use desktop Linux distribution. Though lets clarify for consumers it's not the only easy to use distribution for the desktop. I could say the same for SuSE Linux Professional, Mandrake Linux and others. My point originally was that where Debian distributions are lacking is with certain commercial developers, especially in the entertainment industry where Novell and Red Hat are more dominant. As for readers who are confused by my term of "highend software" it was targeted towards developers such as Alias, Softimage, SideFX, Apple (ie: Shake), Discreet, IFX, etc. No where have I heard or seen a Debian distribution being used in a studio. Reason why I don't believe Linspire will be huge in the market is because as you pointed out in your response Linspire is targeting the desktop user and not workstations or servers. So schools, governments, corporations, studios, etc may as well not look at Linspire as a solution if that is what your company is trying to avoid.

By haha
by tymiles on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 04:18 UTC

You know, I use computers for about 15 years now, and what is the most interesting, had a virus only once, in 96 or 97, don't remember. I can only wonder how and where people get it.

When the slapper worm came out the whole bank of america ATM system went down (Over 10,000 ATMS). When the Blaster Worm came out most of my friends and the whole state of MD Department of Motor Vehicles went down 2500 computers.

Windows doesn't teach any better security then anyone else. When you first start XP after an install it makes EVERY account an admin. With Linspire they don't press making user accounts as hard as they should but when you first boot it gives you the option to add users etc. (And the profiles etc are working great now!)

The big problem with Windows is and always will be crappy scripting. Open scripting that can run even if you are not an admin is a BIG problem and Windows has had this problem for a while.

Just One Question to Kevin
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 04:39 UTC

Kevin, I just have one question:

Why did Linspire choose KDE, whose design philosophy is not really aimed at endusers, but rather at advanced users who likes to customize things. If you at the huge list of configurations in KDE and the cluttered interface of Konquorer, you will know what I mean.

Wouldn't gnome make much more sense? I know gstreamer is quite buggy right now, but you can always use rhythmbox-xine and totem-xine. And for CD burning, you can always use K3b and wait for the release og rhythmbox 0.9 or for coaster to mature. The point is gnome is much simpler for people to figure out: they don't have to deal with cluttered interface and endless configurations. All softwares that are shipped with gnome are HIG compliant, which makes them more novice user firendly. Besides, Project Utopia provides superior hardware intergration.

ps. I know KDE users are going to flame me on this one, so flame on!

"One of the main reasons CNR works as well as it does is because it works with a set and known OS"

You mean your own one desktop appliance , The OS is GNU/Linux based of the Debian distribution.

"CNR with an rpm-based system would be extremely difficult."

I always tought that CNR whas a mozilla plug-ins instalation modification , your comment remind me of the apt cant be made to run with rpm comment. Now If you would release the source code of CNR under the GPL to SuSe , Mandrake , Debian and Red Hat I am sure whe can work something out do whe have a deal ?

"and we'd love to be able to offer that"

See my deal comment ...

"We have done tests"

Can you publish the result online ? Who whas your apt expert on hand ?

"and even apt only works about 50% of the time"

Not that I claim to be an expert like you , but my real life testing and those of many others like me ( Debian Core or based user ) , as shown that in optimal condition apt work 100% of the time this for over almost 10 years now ... even on Linspire.

"Linspire is sort of the AOL of Linux...so easy to use, no wonder it's #1. =) "

Really ? sorry to burst your Bubble but Aol is not the #1 ISP in the US AT&T is ( not directly do , many subsidiaries and resaller ) ... And no your not like AOL , AOl pulled a profit , you still havent after 4 -5 years , and your #1 on the desktop inside the Linspire Building ? Come on Kevin San Diego as 1 223 400 go get 50 000 of them and you will pull a profit !

"I even know several "geeks" who use Linspire too now."

Linspire paid employee dont count , and please give there name so that whe can remove there geek certification from them !! :-)

" 1) Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have. True "

LSB stands for Linux standard base Kevin , its not made by big business , Linspire is the only one who aint aiming for it , loosing money arent ya ;-)

" 2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members. also true ( you said ditto )"

Still not made by big business , guess thats why that big countract did not go to your company ... Still loosing money arent ya ;-)

"(answer #3) We believe some people ... skill and free time. "

Kevin , Kevin , Kevin ( I like your name ), Ya cant have a "NAYA" bottle of water for free ( as in no cost ) , Ya cant have a "Mcdonald hamburger" for free , and ya Cant have the last " the popular show this week on TV this celebrity as " haircut. You can download 200 real distrbution for free , The market your in aint the same , your still loosing money ;-)

"Linspire believes Linux should be available to EVERYONE"

Make your distribution availaible on FTP for free ... the others do , they make a profit , YA AINT !

"FUD. We use GPL/GNU software"

Nope , you know it aint the truth : Bitstream Fonts - What's to Eat? ( one of the many example ) and whats the name of that other Linspire software CNR ? what license ?

"Linspire installs on more desktop computers than Red Hat or Novell."

I am a nice man , Please kevin dont say things wich are wrong and false , Or you can pass my little test :

- 10 "Desktop" computers ( 5 Red Hat / 5 Suse Novell ) **of my choice** ( do notebook count too ? I prefer notebooks )
- each computer Linspire dont install on You give KDE 100K
- If all 10 computer are a failure you give 10 million to KDE and Gnome each and 2 million for me to spend on anything of my choosing plus 4 porsche ( at least 1 model of my choosing , all of this year ). ( I think you need Michael aproval on this ). Do whe have another deal ? Kevin ?

Counterpart is me kissing both your shoe and those of Michael on film wich you can publish on Linspire.com + Me doing 4 Free commercial ( acting in them like Ellen Feiss for apple and Benjamin Curtis for dell promoting Linspire , after wich I will go and shoot myself )


"We have a giant QA lab to prove it if you'd like to come for a visit. "

Send me 3 tickets both way , book an hotel plus 500$ US per day in expanse for one week ( 1500$ in advance so whe can buy digital cams to film the trip , just reply if you agree here with some contact info.

"no one can beat Linspire's OEM and distribution channel."

Why are you loosing money everyday then ? Why arent you on all desktop from IBM , Dell , Gateway , ECS , etc ?

"Linspire has over 350 OEM's that sell computers pre-loaded with Linspire."

Crap Someone need to fire your Webmaster :

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_feature_preinstall.php

Keeping them all hidden is not nice , please post a list online so that whe can browse it. Ya are still loosing money ;-)

"There are over 1,000 retail locations in North and South America that you can walk into and purchase a Linspire computer "

List please ?

"as well as many on-line retailers"

List please ? Online if possible.

"We offer 24/7 world class support."

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=linspire...

I guess they called on your day off right Kevin ?

"TCO = Someone sounds like Ballmer now. =)"

Kevin Your ballmer ?

Linspire : 49.95$ X 10 computers = 499.50$

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006LCHNQ/qid=110118...


Red Hat Professional Workstation : 94.50$ X 1 million computer ( I dont have Michael Budget )

still = 94.50

http://cart.cheapbytes.com/cgi-bin/cart/0060010410.html

SuSE Linux 9.2 Professional Edition : 85.00$ X 100 computer ( I dont have Kevin Budget )

still = 85.00$

Thats why ya got the WMP codecs .... still not making money ;-) ...

"entertainment industry = but when it comes to DESKTOP computing, Linspire's focus shows. "

You have a deal with Ford cars ? focus ...

http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/

why arent they saying work best on Linspire then ?

97% ?
by hayabusa on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 06:31 UTC

someone mentioned CNR has a 97% success rate. For a pay service this is an unacceptable margin for error. Joe Sixpack pays his $ every month, imagine how infuriating it is to him the first time he comes upon an app that doesn't install. could be enough to drive them back to windows.

personally I run Debian sid (on x86 and PPC) and i have no problems installing things via apt. Several people have mentioned synaptic a frontend for apt. I think if you take synaptic one step further and make an HTMl type interface for it, grouping, subgrouping, and describing apps in a friendly and logical way THEN there would be no more need for CNR.

I guess in a way you could view CNR as an "idiot tax" for not being able to use apt ^_~

I see
by Duffman on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 06:49 UTC

that he doesn't try OSX

Re: Just One Question to Kevin
by John Blink on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 07:10 UTC

I think that has been answered here on OSNEWS. Do a search for an interview (I think?).

Wait I found it ;)
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5758&page=4

linspire 5.0?
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 07:40 UTC

When is Linspire 5.0 goingto be released?

Re:re: big boss of linspire(By Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net) )
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 11:13 UTC

Nonsense. Just take a few moments to visit the Linspire forums and you'll be amazed: not only it is an incredibly relaxed and tolerant place (people are happy and free to talk about other distros and even praise them), but you'll soon notice that there are quite a few very knowledgeable users there.

Why I still use Windows
by Jason Young on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 11:37 UTC

If Linspire really wants to make Linux usuable then they should work to get games developed and sold for use with Linux systems. They could start by making a real alternative to DirectX with excellent game programming tools, lets call it OpenX. It should be cross-platform and of course open-source.
I currently dual-boot with Mandrake 10.1 but I haven't reinstalled Windows for over a year and it is starting to get buggy again, so I will be reinstalling within the next couple of weeks. When I do I will be deleting my Linux partition in order to reclaim that space because I can make Windows run stably enough for me and unfortunately Windows is the only platform that most developers make games for. I know Doom 3 is available for Linux and many games are available for the Mac but I play MMPOG and they are all written for Windows.
I plan to build a new box when Microsoft releases Longhorn and then install Linux on my current system. If I didn't play video games though I would probably make Linux my system of choice. I like it but frankly most of the best free and open-source software is available for Windows and I do use it on that platform.
One idea that I had to run games on Linux and other platforms is to use a virtual machine designed to run games. Although that would probably be way to slow to work properly.

Let's try and clear some FUD
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 11:42 UTC

Linspire vs others:
Linspire: $49 a year everything included, even new OS releases. And they do their very best to develop new, very useful desktop apps.
SuSE: 2 Pro Update versions a year (their cheapest offering): $120. Everything included? No way. Poor multimedia support, poor or non existing P2P support (I know, they must stay legal...)
2)Debian: completely free and you can find everything if you know where to look (hint: Marillat.Free + others). But please don't tell me that Jo User or Aunt Tillie can use Debian.
3)Mandrake: 54 Euros for the naked DVD, not even a nice packaging (their cheapest "boxed" offering)
Or else club membership: standard? $66 a year and you get nothing for your money. Of course you can always buy their platinum membership. Cost? $1,320 a year!!! (yes, you read it correct!)
So tell me now who is greedy.

Re: Jason Young
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 11:51 UTC

I respect your very well reasoned position.
However of the (many) PC users I know nobody is much of a gamer. And besides linux has enough games, both FOSS and proprietary to satisfy the needs of many.
If I were a big time gamer I'd rather buy a game console: I believe it makes more sense: much cheaper than a high end computer you need for gaming.

High School Debaters Run Amok!
by enloop on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 12:01 UTC

Most, if not all, of the anti-Linspire criticisms posted here are off-target. "Dark Knight, in particular, produces lengthy lists of criticisms that Linspire's target audience -- desktop users who are Linux virgins -- have no knowledge of and have no reason to care about. They want a good-looking, unchallenging and easy-to-use desktop. They do not want an OS that requires them to learn about it before they can use it. Get a clue, most of these people have no more reason to know anything about something like LSB than they do to know if their Windows filesystem is FAT or NTFS.

Like any distribution, Linspire makes choices that are legitimate targets of criticism. But criticism is more effective if it doesn't smell of high school debate class (that is, loaded with non sequiturs and unsubstantiated premises.)

Re: enloop
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 12:07 UTC

"Like any distribution, Linspire makes choices that are legitimate targets of criticism. But criticism is more effective if it doesn't smell of high school debate class (that is, loaded with non sequiturs and unsubstantiated premises.)"

Great! I love it.

97% ?
by Tyrone Miles on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 14:29 UTC

someone mentioned CNR has a 97% success rate. For a pay service this is an unacceptable margin for error. Joe Sixpack pays his $ every month, imagine how infuriating it is to him the first time he comes upon an app that doesn't install. could be enough to drive them back to windows.


I would say this is more like 98%. And the reason for that is that when they put out a new version of Linspire it takes some time to get all 2500 apps back up to speed and yet still work on the older versions of Linspire. Still at this time Linspire is working on a regular basis to make the OS better not just leave problems out there etc.

With Linspire 5 this should be better because they are going to go to a tighter release cycle etc.

Also click and run allows outside software developers to post applications (These applications are not tested by the Linspire company and are listed as such) A lot of times those apps are not kept up to date. But I have never had a problem with any major or popular app like OOo, Firefox, Mozilla, Evolution, Tux Racer, Thunderbird, Firestarter, K-Office Suite, etc, etc, etc. So I don't see this as a problem big enough to make someone stop using Linspire.

Target User
by Skyhawk on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 14:36 UTC

I am one of those target users. I was desperate to get away from Windows and all the problems it caused. I started reading up on Linux. I installed Mandrake and was so confused that I formated the harddrive and reinstalled Windows. After further searching I found a company that sold new computers pre-loaded with Linux called Microtel. I then found a Linux distribution that worked with Microtel so I bought one. It was a nice system for the home user linux newbie(myself). It came preloaded with Linspire 4.5 and with a years subscription to CNR. I have now had it for 4 months and regardless of what the technical people here say, Linspire works just fine and if I hadn't had to upgrade the video card(NVidia) so I could play certain games I also wouldn't have had to, except to install the drivers for that card, ever use the command line/console/terminal. It operates similar to windows, which was what I was used to, and a complete newbie to linux like me can use it just fine. I may not be a technical person but Linspire suits my uses and I know it would suit a lot of other users that would like to leave windows but are put off by the technical aspects of other types of Linux. I just wanted to step into this conversation as too many people were making comments that were not necessary nor true.

RE: By Skyhawk
by Tyrone Miles on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 15:29 UTC

You are right.

I installed Lindows 4 for my mother (And have since upgraded to Linspire 4.5) And she enjoys it. She is never had a problem with her computer, the thing she loves about it is that it just works. She paid $150 for the CPU With (Lindows at the time) installed to replace her old P3 Windows 2000 machine that got killed by the blaster worm!

My thing is that Linspire is no worse then Windows. 99% of the stuff I can do in Windows I can do with Linspire and it costs me less.

klik
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 16:29 UTC

http://klik.sf.net will be a free alternative to the Lindows CNR, it aims to make "all debian packages klik-able"...

@anonymous penguin:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 17:47 UTC

You can install Mandrake and SuSE completely free via FTP; with Mandrake, if you wait a month after Club members, you can download free ISOs. Both have extensive online package sources which are free to access. I've never paid a cent for a copy of Mandrake and I've been running it for years (before anyone starts flaming, I contribute in other ways. I spent two hours last night making a list of suggested resolutions for old open kernel bugs.)

By: roger roger
by DarkMavis on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 17:50 UTC

>Linspire : 49.95$ X 10 computers = 499.50$

Um, untrue. If you read the EULA it states:

You may download and use Linspire on multiple computers owned, leased or rented by You; provided, however, You and members of Your Household (a Household consists of those individuals that currently reside with You) are the only individuals with the right to use Your licensed copy(ies) of Linspire. For example, if You have a desktop computer at home and a laptop computer which You travel with, You may download a copy of Linspire on both machines for the personal use of members of Your Household and You. You agree that You are responsible for the members of Your Households compliance with the terms of this Agreement as though they were You and had agreed to all terms and conditions herein.

I believe this pertains to your CNR membership as well so if one person in your house has a CNR membership, it can be used on multiple computers within your family.

Lastly, try getting Microsoft to allow you this kind of freedom.

MS XP Pro: $300 (OfficeMax price) x 10 computers = $3000
Linspire: $50 (OS) + $50 (CNR) x 10 computers = $100

With this logic, I can run Linspire with a CNR membership every year for almost 60 years and NEVER pay for an OS upgrade. I think you can see the value.

scared
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 18:05 UTC

Maybe you guys are afraid. You guys are afraid that once Linspire/Xandros/SuSe and others go mainstream, all the moms, dads, grampys, grammys, non techie sisters and brothers and even short term blonde girlfriends will be using the same thing you will be . . LINUX! That would be horrible wouldnt it. the coolness factor just disappears in an instant.

You guys dont want Linux to improve and get more recognition. You are just selfish and insecure :-)

Re: What Linspire hasn't got.
by Kancept on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 18:07 UTC

1. Linspire lacks LSB certification which Novell and Red Hat both have.

WOW. Totally of concern to people coming away from a M$ environment. That's like Windows not being M$ certified!

2. Linspire is not a member of the Free Standards Group but Novell and Red Hat are members.

Yet again and those standards that aren't so standard! Blast them!

3. Linspire does not follow simple standards such as not charging consumers to access software that is freely available with other Linux distributions.

They aren't charging for software. They're charging for the nice packaging of said software. Much like walking into Best Buy and picking up SuSE or RedHat boxed sets...it's all packaging. People also pay to have CDs sent to them of linux distros. And what "standard" is this anyway? And if someone wants to pay for it, who is to stop them? You can install Synaptic and do it yourself for free too. But you probably didn't know that since you haven't given it a try and researched a little.

4. Linspire lacks a flexible EULA and seems more Microsoft like in their license offerings. Unlike the license agreements that Novell and Red Hat offer consumers, both of which work to follow the GNU/GPL.

And yet again, what does the average Joe care about the EULA? It's never bothered anyone before, esp those coming from a Windows environment. It's another screen to click [OK] to to get past and get to your installing...

5. Linspire lacks support for current hardware such as Intel P4/Xeon w/EMT64, AMD Opteron/64-FX, current graphics cards, etc. Both Novell and Red Hat offer a wider support base for hardware than Linspire and as such better suited not only for home consumers but also enterprise.

Linspire isn't shooting for the Enterprise, so what sense does your comment make? As for graphics support, it's amazing how I have to DL drivers for my NVidia cards to get them to work and hey! another one of those EULA thingies! Not to mention actually opening up a commandline and running those oh so cryptic commands that one who is diving into linux for the first time should never have to do...

6. Linspire lacks good distributor support. Unlike Novell and Red Hat that have support from companies IBM, HP, etc.

The average Joe doesn't call up even M$ for support. You need a frame of reference! It's NOT their target market. Joe user doesn't need distributor support, although they do get it anyway with Linspire. There are distributors around, just not HUGE names like IBM and the like. Of course getting distributor support goes back to that whole enterprise thing you seem to be stuck on...

7. Linspire support offerings are a poor comparison to what Novell and Red Hat currently offer consumers.

Actually no, they are better. Time is money, sure. Joe user doesn't wanna wait for tech support. He wants to get it done. Linspire's offerings are geared for that target market...Joe user. So what, a few bucks IF he calls tech support. The firums are FAST fro responses. He doesn't need some package deal for Enterprise IT guy at $6k a year... Let's not forget it's centralised. Unlike finding your distributor, or the manufacturer, or the coder, etc, etc. One nice stop for Joe User.

8. TCO is higher with Linspire when compared to Novell and Red Hat.

And the home owner, who uses their inkjet printer is concerned about TCO how? Simply, they aren't. TCO really doesn't mean jack to Joe. Oh yeah, yet another enterprise thing where they pay some guy to make a spreadsheet showing how the TCO of this is less than that....surprised paper and pencils didn't make the TCO comparison chart this year.

9. Linspire and Debian based distributions in general lack support from the entertainment industry and their software suppliers. Where as Novell and Red Hat are the leading companies used by studios and their highend software developers.

LOL...yeah, Joe user is SO worried that his Linspire distro isn't gonna run Shake. oo oo, or how about clustering! Yeah! I could cluster all the machines in the house and do what? Oh yeah, I'm a home user... no need to run Shake.

Get with the program. Linspire is aimed at Joe User. when they get more agile at using linux, they'll install Synaptic and add repos to Synaptic (which works well in Linspire, btw). once they outgrow that, they'll move on. But these aren't the folks trying out new distros every day. These are the folks who come home, fire up LSongs listen to some tunes, take pics with their digital cams- imported into LPhoto, and chat on gAIM. They aren't worried about TCO for their computer, or whether or not it'll render a Shrek movie tommorow, or whether or not IBM will be there to support it in the morning. They want it to work, and they want to work on it. Not fix it, but be productive. THAT'S Linspire's market.

RE: Why nobody loves mandrake?
by zenadu on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 18:22 UTC

I agree with k4ever, Mandrake has improved tremendously since the days when it was just a repackaged RH6.
It's the best all round distribution that should satisfy the entire spectrum of Linux users. With urpmi most 'dependencies' problems have been solved. I often wonder why it's seldom reviewed in American publications/ sites.

RE:klik
by Tyrone Miles on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 18:37 UTC

Nice, nice. The only thing I I see that has always stood out in Click and Run is having an account that keeps track of all the apps you have ever installed so you can come back and bulk install them at any time. (I could bulk install the apps on 100 machines at the same time if I want)

Also I like the way that new releases are listed in a seperate area and then all apps are broken down based on what they do. Plus all apps have a pretty good discription page with Screen shots etc.

So I wonder is Klik going to work on Linspire? Also there used to be a site called Openlindows.com that was set up to make installable versions of all the major apps for Lindows so you didn't need click and run.

Re:AdamW
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 19:09 UTC

Seriously! Iso downloads of Mandrake are a joke. It all depends on your status. If you are Joe Public, you can only download 3 isos, no proprietary stuff included. And you wait and wait...(10.1 official hasn't been released to the general public yet)
If you are a standard member you can download 4 isos immediately, but no proprietary stuff. And so on as your status increases, up to Platinum membership, where for the money you pay they should call you "Your Royal Highness"
For a meaningful comparison let's take Debian or Mepis (although even with Mepis now you are getting extra privileges if you pay)

Bravo Kevin!
by Steve W on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 19:12 UTC

for putting your feet to the fire and answering questions here. I don't see any other paid distro executives doing that. Those who didn't accept his answers probably hate Linspire simply because it dumbs down Linux.

Two reasons... 1. Time is money. 2. Not everyone is a computer wiz. "

Why arent you loaded in cash then ? Still loosing money arent ya ?

"Take an average ... to install GIMP. "

I have to visit San Diego Kevin ! They turn to me and say : how do I do that after 5 seconds.

"Should these people ... this for them? "

Problem is those people dont install software I do it for them or they buy complete solutions ...
Ya aint making any money right ?

"We have 85 full-time employees working to make Linux easy and accessible to the non-technical user."

And you stil have ZERO kde developper even do you have 85 employee ? And your still not making any money ... BTW would be fun if you would put that interesting fact in the Linspire company fact ( number of employee ).

"We charge a fair price for this service"

Too bad the market dont agree with you and you dont pull a profit because of this ...

"Novell and Red Hat are great companies with great products...for THEIR niche's. "

Kevin , just for fun , you have 1 million desktop user ? or even 10 thousand paying customer worldwide ? who let the dog out woof woof woof woof woof ( niche mean dog house ).

"Did you know, ... Data Center run using Red Hat? "

Wow !! Debian based using Red Hat server ... ya still making no money

"Did you know that our Intranet uses Novell's (SuSE's) Open Exchange for our group calendaring, etc.? "

See right above replace by SuSe + off course Intranet are not meant to be used with a desktop ...
no bacon for kevin. ( ya still make no money , I tought it would be fun for a change, ya know unlike you still not making any money or changing your very old comments ... )

"It's on the DESKTOP that Linspire shines."

You started to make cleaning product ? Fantastik ! ( he he he fantastik , hot words this one kevin , its a joke ) GNU/Linux one desktop appliance not panning out ? OOoFf! ( another joke OOoFf!, lol )

"It's all we do. We eat, sleep and drink the DESKTOP. We have 85 full-time, hard-working, dedicated employees that do nothing but try and make the Linux experience better on the DESKTOP."

http://www.debian.org/intro/about#who

Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org).

"And we hope we do it well. "

Dont hope man , if you do , you pull a profit, ya aint making the cut ...

"We're not for everyone"

Probably why you aint turning a profit.

"but hopefully we provide value to those who fit inside our target market. "

The Target audience already as a copy and so do I ( even do its more because I feel pity for you ;-) )

You filled the Target and pity target you market and are still not making a profit or have a sustainable company :

http://news.com.com/2100-7344-5195630.html

Yo even failled three time your IPO :

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_news_pressreleases_archives.php?id=...

1) Failed first normal IPO as Lindows.
2) Tried again with OpenIpo as Lindows Failed again.
3) Tried as Linspire Failed again.

have a nice day

P.S.

http://www.ecs.com.tw/extra/g900/g900.html

Ya can look but cant touch ;-)

"Linspire vs others:"

Linspire loose in real life ...

"Linspire: $49 a year everything included, even new OS releases. And they do their very best to develop new, very useful desktop apps. "

Where did you get that price ? http://www.linspire.com/lindows_storefront.php?own=no

everything included ? thats why theres other offer and other boxes ...

"SuSE: 2 Pro Update versions a year (their cheapest offering): $120. Everything included? No way. Poor multimedia support, poor or non existing P2P support (I know, they must stay legal...) "

You need 2 different distribution and a price you pulled from your head to make such a comment ?

"2)Debian: completely free and you can find everything if you know where to look (hint: Marillat.Free + others). But please don't tell me that Jo User or Aunt Tillie can use Debian. "

Seems to me they like knopppix and unbuntu ...

"3)Mandrake: 54 Euros for the naked DVD, not even a nice packaging (their cheapest "boxed" offering)
Or else club membership: standard? $66 a year and you get nothing for your money. Of course you can always buy their platinum membership. Cost? $1,320 a year!!! (yes, you read it correct!)"

Why bother ?

So tell me now who is greedy.

Well let see , SuSe make there distribution , Debian make there distribution , Mandrake make there distribution.

The only one removing from the distribution there based on is Linspire and they dont even make there own distribution.

I guees now whe know how the Linspire user compare there Gnu/Linux product and on what data they base there choice. Thanks its very informative. lol

DarkMavis (IP: ---.mn.client2.attbi.com)
by roger roger on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 20:13 UTC

"Um, untrue"

let see 10 computer of 10 people in real life :

roger roger San diego
roger1 roger1 Sao polo
roger2 roger2 Michigan
roger3 roger3 New york
roger4 roger4 Ohio
roger5 roger5 Florida
roger6 roger6 Ontario
roger7 roger7 chicken falls
roger8 roger8 yellow horse
roger9 roger9 cow head

need Eula ?

"if one person in your house has a CNR membership, it can be used on multiple computers within your family. "

See my familly above ...

"try getting Microsoft to allow you this kind of freedom"

And of course the changing the subject comment , I spoke of other Gnu/Linux distribution/product , Linspire against them dont do well at all.

"Linspire: $50 (OS) + $50 (CNR) x 10 computers = $100"

Its not a math addition that I made , I took 3 real life different example , I dont know where you pulled those numbers from. And they happen to be false even for one household ...

"With this logic"

I dont call it logic or even reallistic or legal ..

"I can run Linspire with a CNR membership every year for almost 60 years and NEVER pay for an OS upgrade. "

Legally no , realistically If linspire dont pull a profit soon I doubt they will last 60 years , and finally comeback when there new version is out ...

Re: What Linspire hasn't got. @Kancept
by Dark_Knight on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 20:17 UTC

Instead of just spewing off comments please take time to read posts or at least think before posting. Such as not only my original post "What Linspire hasn't got" but also Kevin Carmony response "FUD Alert" and my response to his post seen here http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8949&offset=45&rows=60 titled "Re: What Linspire hasn't got. @Kevin Carmony". My response is due to not just my opinion of what is believed Linspire is not providing consumers but also others that I've discussed this with. Take time to read my posts and the links I provided and possibly you'll have more appreciation for someone who is letting consumers know there are better Linux solutions than what Linspire attempts to offer.

stop the flamewar....
by fms on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 20:28 UTC

...after all, everyone is free to chose the distro he wants. if someone wants to use linspire, let him. as long as linspire does a better job than microsoft and does not tell other linux-coders/companys to SELL their stuff i can live with the existence of a distro that tries to do its best.

nobody forces anyone to use linspire.

time will show if linspires approach will keep them afloat on the long run or if they will vanish (which would be a pity... think of all those who would loose their job!) although i prefer completely free distros.

a propos KDE/Gnome: if it is intended to be primarily a noob-distro, i agree with someone above who stated that Gnome might be better for linspire. KDE still has not managed to "create" a hig-like thing. what a pity.

@roger roger
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 21:39 UTC

Surprise surprise, I am not a Linspire user. I support their idea of a (very) easy and stable desktop linux, because I'd like to see it widely spread.
Also I hate any kind of FUD and I would support any distro, any OS, anything actually which gets unfairly attacked.
You are posting links right and left, but you don't read them yourself: that one about the price of Linspire should be *read and understood* That is the price for buying the OS (which you buy only once in your lifetime) and one year CNR membership.
However thousands of people have got the OS for free.
SuSE price pulled from my head? Surprise, SuSe is one of the two distros I use, so I should know the price.
Why bother about Mandrake Platinum membership? And why are you wasting so much time, energy, space, our patience, because Linspire charges a very reasonable fee for their service?
Linspire doesn't make their own distribution? What do you smoke, can I have some?
Do you consider yourself a friend of linux? I hope not.
With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Re: What Linspire hasn't got. @Dark_Knight
by Kancept on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 22:33 UTC

I have read your posts. And in all instances you fail to see that what you talk about doesn't concern Joe User OR the target market. If you are a user that cares about GPL, GNU, and all that, you aren't the target. Chances are, you are running SuSE or Fedora or Ubuntu or even Slack.

If you care at all abotu TCO, then you aren't the target market either. You go into "people wanting standards". GROUPS want standards. They don't care if the thing followed the standards of the LSB or FSG.

People want their MP3 layer to play music. They could care less that you have to use iTunes to work with your iPod. People buy proprietary hardware all the time. Joe user just wants it to work. They want to point, click and have it installed. Not have to tar -xf somefile.tar.gz then go ./configure, make, make install. They also shouldn't have to apt-get update, apt-get install synaptic just to be able to install the software. That's what they are shooting for. The people who don't care to do that and don't want to do that. The option is always there.

Your talk about TCO, standards, and liscensing mean nothing to Joe User. Point and click. Hey, music. You've apparently missed the point.

Re: Kancept
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 22:49 UTC

Good points. But there is more to that: you have only to briefly visit the Linspire forums to realize that there are many geeks who like an hassle free OS. Guess where many Ubuntu users came from? Gentoo...(not a secret)
And the simple reason why they aren't many more is because everybody is waiting for Linspire 5.0

@kancept:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 23:19 UTC

"People want their MP3 layer to play music. They could care less that you have to use iTunes to work with your iPod. People buy proprietary hardware all the time. Joe user just wants it to work."

Sorry, that's crap. Why didn't Betamax survive? Why do most DVD writers now do + and -? Have you ever stood behind someone at the counter in a computer store while the clerk explains the difference between + and - DVD writing standards and seen them wondering 'why the hell was someone dumb enough to make this the case'?

@anonymous penguin:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 23:24 UTC

Well, duh. If you don't pay you don't get proprietary software.

Sorry, what's your problem with that exactly? You want the moon on a stick for free?

You can get a fully functioning system. Entirely free. You can update that system till kingdom come. Entirely free. That's good enough value for me, and if it ain't for you, go away. Bye.

@anonymous penguin:
by AdamW on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 23:26 UTC

BTW, 10.1 Official came out less than a month again, hence the non-availability of free ISOs as of yet. Wait a week or so.

@AdamW
by Anonymous Penguin on Tue 23rd Nov 2004 23:46 UTC

Except that Mandrake is proud of being newbie free, and what you suggest is all but newbie free.
My problem is that all those differences based on how much you pay aren't in the spirit of Open Source *at all*.
Besides Mandrake wasn't always like that. I have seen it growing greedier and greedier all the time.
So please let's have the decency of leaving Linspire alone: $49 a year isn't much by any stretch of the imagination. And you actually get something for your money.

My previous post...
by Anonymous Penguin on Wed 24th Nov 2004 01:03 UTC

"Newbie free" should be of course "newbie friendly"

"Surprise surprise, I am not a Linspire user."

No , I am , this show your relevance.

"I support their idea of a (very) easy and stable desktop linux, because I'd like to see it widely spread. "

I paid for it , and your the one doing the support , even do they aint making money and thats fine with you ? No , comment.

"Also I hate any kind of FUD "

So far your the one making FUD.

"which gets unfairly attacked. "

Yes , I put a gun to Kevin head and say , you write this crap while your company goes down the drain ...

"You are posting links right and left"

Yes , reality and cold hard facts are a bitch.

"but you don't read ...in your lifetime) and one year CNR membership. "

I am going to believe you over 5 paid and certified lawyer in 5 different company who add me remove the 200 *testing* of one desktop appliance instal of linspire I add done because of a "legal" problem. Please give me your number , they have no clue of what you know they must be taught !

"However thousands of people have got the OS for free. "

http://www.suprnova.org/ as over 50 thousand download of linspire , and thats one download place , but hey no contest you are the expert.

"SuSE price pulled from my head?"

Yes ...

"Surprise, SuSe is one of the two distros I use, so I should know the price. "

No surprise and Apparently not , but then again I aint the one who as to take two different product and add them togheter to prove SuSe is pricier.

"Why bother about Mandrake Platinum membership?"

No , why bother to answer your innacurate pricing and obvious hatred of Mandrake ( like platinum mebership as anything to do with regular offer or boxed set ). Its not like removing them ( even do I showed the right price ) is going to make all the other distribution disapear , I have hundreds of others to fall back on , those where example.

"And why are you wasting so much time, energy, space, our patience, "

My time is not wasted , Its not really physical , its you who is wasting osnews space , and I dont care if you dont like what I write , its not like your Kevin are you ?

" because Linspire charges a very reasonable fee for their service?"

Thats why you use two other distribution and none of them are the one desktop appliance sold by Linspire ? If its so reasonable go buy it , and either way since you dont use it , off course the fact they dont make money is not going to affect you.

"Linspire doesn't make their own distribution?"

No its based of Debian , everyone knows that , they have a one desktop appliance.

"What do you smoke" *-=Note to the moderator : Come from above comment dont mode me down for it =-*

I dont smoke , but maybe you do, thats why you dont make any sense.

" can I have some?"

Its called being sober and drug free , I doubt you would like it.

"Do you consider yourself a friend of linux?"

Yes , but then again I refer to it as GNU/Linux , linux for me is the kernel. Dont try to understand , you cant.

"I hope not. "

Will you hope I contribute my money , my time and my expertise. Even made another copy of Linspire for someone to "test" will answering your ...

"With friends like you, who needs enemies?"

A real friend invest in you and is never afraid to tell you your wrong even when millions of others who dont care say your right and always tell you things like they are.
They whant you to be rich and keep living well and healthy.

Have a nice day.


New surprise...
by Anonymous Penguin on Wed 24th Nov 2004 02:09 UTC

I am in fact a lifetime member.
When I say that I am not a Linspire user I am not lying: I am not using it right now because I am waiting for 5.0
How about that?

alternative idea
by Eduardo on Wed 24th Nov 2004 05:04 UTC

Kevin Carmony says it would be impractical to do CRN for other distributions. Instead maybe the other distributions that want to reach home users could change their installation manager so it is as simple as CRN. I use mandrake 8.2, and it is pretty close.

Who cares about standards
by Skyhawk on Wed 24th Nov 2004 12:30 UTC

I don't care about standards I just want to plug something in and not have to do anything to get it to work. Is that too much to ask? Plugged in my new HP2610i Photosmart printer into my Linspire 4.5 computer and guess what, I opened up Open Office Writer and started printing. Did I have to hunt down drivers, install them? No, I just plugged it in, Linspire autodetected the printer autoselected the correct drivers and off I went to printing. Plugged my smartcard from my camera into the printer and guess what, an icon for the card popped up on the desktop allowing me to browse the card as a data storage unit. With my Dell DJ 20, open LSongs, plug it in, up pops an icon for it. Canon sureshot G5 camera, icon pops up in LPhoto. No driver installation and only one click installed all the software I have mentioned here.

I am really getting tired of some of you that are so-called techies unreservedly attacking Linspire for no other reason that it wasn't designed with techies in mind. Well I have news for you, get used to it. If Linux is going to expand its going to have to start appealing to the Joe User's out there like me and I hate to break it to you, but not appeal to you techies. If it doesn't you might as well start using Windows as that will be the only system left out there.

I enjoy playing native Linux games too, America's Army, Tux Racer, Enemy Territory and others. BTW, they only took one click to install too.

@ Anonymous Penguin
by Kancept on Wed 24th Nov 2004 15:52 UTC

Hey, I do visit the forums often. I do use LinSpire... and Ubuntu, Fedora Core, SuSE, ClarkConnect, OS/2, BeOS, and DOS. Those are just my main use machines. I'm also a LinSpire reseller - was a Lindows reseller before the name change.

I speak from experience on what Joe User wants because that's what I'm asked for when they walk into my computer shop looking for alternatives to Windows machines and Macs.

Two of my laptops have LinSpire for the simple fact that when I'm traveling, I may need to grab a dial-up account quick and lo and behold does LinSpire make it easy. Personally, if using a distro, I prefer Ubuntu, as I'm more of a Gnome fan, and I like a few more things from my distro that Linspire doesn't have. I could always use Synaptic, but then it breaks CNR quite often.

Gnome also feels cleaner to me than KDE does. But Gnome vs. KDE is a whole 'nuther discussion. If we'd get a Bluecurve or something cleaner looking at least than the current Linspire theme, I'd be much happier.

@ Adam W - yes, I understand those standards, but that has nothing to do with the adaoption of Linspire as an OS. It doesn't matter that Linspire isn't a part of that standards group yet. It's too early in the game. Your example of +/- is perfect in that there are a few companies in each boat on the +/- formats. Just as there are a few companies in a few different boats on the standards commitees. Dark_Knight brings up a good point showing the few are are actually in the LSB group. The point is of all the distros, there are a few. So if another standard breaks out, and it's not in their group, guess what? It's another standard. Which makes no point in "belonging" to one group since you have to support the other group's "standards". That's exactly why we have +/- burners- because two "standards" groups couldn't decide and HW manufacturers are left supporting both, since OEMs (like Apple) want one or the other, and for Joe User, it's easiest if his HW supported it all for the very reason you stated - less confusion at checkout. You don't have any idea how many times I've had to explain this at my shop.

@Skyhawk (IP: ---.whs.mil)
by roger roger on Wed 24th Nov 2004 16:30 UTC

"I don't care about standards"

Then dont use them , everything in GNU/Linux is built on Standards , you and Linspire are free to show us how you make your stuff work without our driver and our standards.

I personnaly would love to see how anything in your computer and peripheral is going to work without standards.







@Kancept
by Anonymous Penguin on Wed 24th Nov 2004 17:18 UTC

Yes, I am also an operating systems geek.
But at the moment I dual boot between SuSE and Debian or Libranet (Debian and Libranet mean the same to me)
I am also a keen Linspire supporter. As I said I am a lifetime member. I am looking forward to 5.0 (a lot of people are) ;)

@roger roger (IP: ---.234-131-66.mc.videotron.ca)
by Skyhawk on Wed 24th Nov 2004 17:36 UTC

"Then dont use them , everything in GNU/Linux is built on Standards , you and Linspire are free to show us how you make your stuff work without our driver and our standards."

You are reading between the lines again. I stated "I don't care about standards, I just want to plug something in and not have to do anything to get it to work." I also stated I am not a techie but the average "Joe User" migrating from Windows.

Sure they are "STARTING" a group to "STANDARDIZE" the standards for Linux. Notice I stated "STARTING" and not "Long in progress". As they come up with basic standards as they go along more will join as long as the "SMALL NUMBER" of companies currently involved don't make things too hard and unflexible for the "LARGER NUMBERS" of others to join.

Now my question to you, what happens if that "LARGER NUMBER OF OTHERS" desides to come up with thier own Linux Standards Board? Who says that the current Linux Standards Board will come up with the right ones? I remember what happened to HTML standards and Netscape and then came Internet Explorer and ActiveX. One company with many users i.e. RedHat, SuSE, MS coming up with thier own standards and products throwing the current standards and other workable software out the window. I may be the average "Joe User" when it comes to Linux but I have been using Windows since the beginning.

Standards and the LSB certification
by Dark_Knight on Thu 25th Nov 2004 06:59 UTC

Kancept,

The LSB certification may have big players such as Novell and Red Hat in the group but the LSB cerification is open to all distributions including Debian based ones such as Linspire. What it truly means with having standards is that you as a consumer would not have to worry about things such as being limited on what distribution to install your software. Developers whether commercial or open source would not be forced to create multiple variations of software to suit differant distributions because the ones that have LSB certification would be following the same standards. This is part of the reason why Novell made YaST an Open Source project for anyone to build on and use in their distribution. I believe Sun was the first to adopt YaST in their software. Anyway, as a Linux community working together we truly don't need 100 distributions doing their own thing instead of following set standards. Linspire has an opportunity to be part of this initiative. Whether they choose to support this initiative or sit on the side lines only time will tell.

Just my two cents!
by Robert Trembath on Fri 26th Nov 2004 14:32 UTC

Linspire has taken Desktop Linux to a standard it should be, simple to use even for a new computer user, complete with animated tutorials. This costs time and money to educate and train people in how to use software. Any developer knows that documenting your software is most times the longest and most expensive part especially if you go to the level of polish Linspire has to make sure people know how to use it.

You can complain all you want about how it's not for advanced users, but it was developed for any skill level, new users to advanced. I am a Sr. Project Manager for an IT firm as well as a Linux/PHP/MySQL programmer for about 10 years now. Linspire has everything I need doing any of these jobs, Apache, PHP, MySQL, MySQLCC and a variety of editors for programming.

I have used just about every major Linux distro and it is a love-hate relationship with almost every one. Gentoo is fast but you spend more time building and maintaining than you do actually using it. And emerge is far from perfect. Mandrake and Fedora are very stable and have great package management. But none are as easy to use as CNR.

None of the free distros will install without fail, Nvidia and ATI drivers, java and mplayer browser plugins, multimedia applications, by default, out of the box, in 10 minutes. I even timed it just out of curiousity. These are things everyone installs but aren't included "out-of-the-box" on most distros for licensing issues.

No one said it was the best distro, they just claimed they were on to something. And he's right, they are. They made Linux easy to use for a complete newbie. I praise them for that, that is how users will be converted. Many new users to the Internet started with AOL because it was simple to use, then graduated to regular broadband, DSL or Cable modem and left AOL behind. I see Linspire filling that role. It may not be what they end up using, but they are using Linux because Linspire introduced them to a world without Windows.