OSNews

What Microsoft operating systems need to learn from Apple

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Intel could learn something from IBM too.

Isn't this the man who is said to have a significant influence on the average consumer? I don't really know why, but I think I remember an article about him (linked by or written by OSNews) on this man, his reviews and the influence of his opinion.

WSJ is providing this one for free through the end of the week.

http://ptech.wsj.com/ptech.html

I love apple. The iPod is a huge success and its looks like apple's strategy is working but i can't help but be surprised and a tad bit suspicious regarding the sudden conversion of people into apple advocates. Sorry but i can't help but wonder if IBM and/or Freescale/motorola have a hand in any of this.

Now don't flame me. Apple deserves credit and they executing well. I just wonder if the much deserved credit is being inflated a bit. By the way, i've watched my apple stock triple in value this year so i am not complaining.

You wrote:

I love apple. The iPod is a huge success and its looks like apple's strategy is working but i can't help but be surprised and a tad bit suspicious regarding the sudden conversion of people into apple advocates. Sorry but i can't help but wonder if IBM and/or Freescale/motorola have a hand in any of this.

Now don't flame me. Apple deserves credit and they executing well. I just wonder if the much deserved credit is being inflated a bit. By the way, i've watched my apple stock triple in value this year so i am not complaining.


The most likely reason behind it is that Apple is being less speculative and more roadmap committed to current and future product revisions, not to mention HP has seen the number of blue iPods fly out their distribution channels.

The joint venture with HP has and will pay off huge for Apple.

I'm betting that Apple has indicated to the analysts what they might expect this January as well.

1) At a time when script kiddies scour entire networks, scanning thousands (if not millions) of computers each month, is it really smart to pretend that the Mac's small market share presents an unattractive target for digital criminals ?

2) Why do reporters always feel the need to use superlatives in their articles ? "The single best desktop computer I have ever reviewed." Come on, a little moderation won't hurt.

Maybe a few more people have pulled their heads out of Bill Gate's rear end and took a look around and came to the conclusion. Hey, Bill is full of ****. Macs really work and you don't have to spend time (mostly time) and money on firewalls (built into Mac OS X) and AV software.

the guy did not say "the single best desktop ever"

he said "the single best desktop he has ever reviewed"

hardly an exaggeration. I mean, he is the reviewer, is he not the one that is allowed to judge his past reviews against this machine?

I'm a long-time Mac user, along side Windows at work (sigh). This is being written on my Mac, a 1Ghz G4 running OS 10. This machine has to be considered "old". My wife, lucky her, has a G5. They're both great computers and neither of us ever for a second wished that we had a Windows box. Never, not once.

It's funny, I've many friends that use Windows machines and they've all wistfully thought at one time or another, that "maybe I should consider a Mac". True, only one or two actually made the leap. Honestly, it's a terribly involved thing to do, and none too cheap, what with the software issue. So, they're stuck.

Do I believe Mossberg? Of course, I do. This is coming from one of the most respected journalists in the business. The fact that I believe him, though, is both a foregone conclusion and irrelevant. Intel/MS readers, though, should take note.

Any series of comments on OSNews must contain the requisite "Linux is better than anything else on the planet" post.

Really now, I've been using Linux since Kernel 0.9.2, and I agree it does have it's purposes and uses and areas in which it excels. However, as an everyday desktop that gets the hell out of your way and lets you get work done without fighting with the system, OS X is quite simply leaps and bounds beyond what is currently available in any Linux distro...

Yes I have tried the most recent ones, Suse, Fedora Core, Xandros (which comes closest), Debian, etc...
Yes they are good, and quite a bit better than before, but they still don't come close. Not for someone who does not want to play hacker to make it work (me, though I am capable) or for someone who is not well enough versed to do so.

Face it, OS X is an excellent OS.

The Mac bourgeois luxury machine is near the cost of two PC's.

Too bad paid for shills like Mossberg do not mention the most important things.

Apple will never be hero of worker until price exploitation stops.

i'm going to agree with you. i've had my powerbook for about 18-months and its one of the best computing purchases (if not the best i've ever made). i'll keep it until a G5 powerbook is released (whenever that is), give my G4 to my girlfriend, and hopefully keep that cycle going. every day i'm amazed at how functional, fun, and enjoyable my powerbook is and i'm not just some joe computer-user, i'm a developer who knows his way around windows (all we use at work) and linux (the only other thing i use at home).

i think if more people would spend a decent amout of time with a mac (say a month), they'd be hooked. but most people aren't willing to do that, despite a mac losing almost no value in that time period (look on ebay for gently used macs, you won't find them much cheaper then new ones). but, hey, for some people, it's easier to bash a platform they have little to no experience with then to actually try something new and different.

hopefuly a G5 will be at my desk in the next year or two.

When was the last time you honestly compared the price of a new Powerbook to a comparably featured Wintel notebook? Aside from the need to re-invest in software, they are priced almost identically. Get over yourself.

No hard feeling to Mac users but I can't even set up an HP Office Jet v40 printer after upgrading to Panther. Now, how's that the best desktop for an average pc user? Mandrakelinux PPC could set up the printer years ago.

Of course I could go on the net to search and read on but that's not the point, especially when one pays a hefty price for both software and hardware.

Maybe next release will improve.

feels like the good old days - here is my app-folder, put the whole app here, if I don't like it move it to the trash. There is still the .PKG system, but most of the consumer apps are using just .dmg->your app->drag'n'drop->Apps folder (or whenever you want).

I got so used with Mac OS X, and it's Dock, that I had to buy ObjectDock Plus from stardock.com - the concept of keeping the apps that way is really what I need.

Here is another small frustration with MS Windows, - the other day some window pop-ed up telling me that "There some icons that have not been used in a long-time".. Then something along the line - do you want to remove them? Now is that supposed to be an AI here, agent or something telling me how to organize my stuff? Is "he" better than me? Is "he" smarter? Should I comply to "his" way of doing the thing? I think not.... It's the same with the "dissapearing" menus in MS Windows - where if something has not been used in a long time - it dissapears.

Then again, I would not give my MS Windows for anything else when comes to doing my regular job as a game developer. I'm so used to it (MSVC, Perforce, cmd shell, various explorer extensions, etc.) - so I cannot give it away. It's like a drug.

I've tried doing serious stuff with XCode, and Eclipse on my iBook, but I feel I'm bit out of place - I did little stuff with Metrowerks gamecube compiler and environment, and XCode looks like that, but I need time to adjust to that interface.

And on Linux - KDevelop or Anjuta are good, until they start crashing, or not working correctly as expected (I might be using them wrongly)...

So where is the Anonymous Windows Developer Users group I have to sign for ?

i'd argue that you can't afford a PC:
http://hohle.net/scrap_post.php?post=50

where's Joe McCarthy when we need him?

OS X is the means of production!

In 10 years of using windows I have only once been affected by something.

It was some kind of IE web toolbar, that couldn't be removed by ad-aware (even though it said it did).

I have never done anything special to prevent all these things that plague windows. All I have is a router firewall.

BTW how can the Windows Firewall be inferior. I don't get it. If you block a port, isn't it blocked? Or is he talking about the add-on features of third-party firewalls?

There is still the .PKG system, but most of the consumer apps are using just .dmg->your app->drag'n'drop->Apps folder (or whenever you want).

and thats where the problem starts. how do *completely* uninstall a .pkg'ed app? there is no way.

but apart from that, i really like my emac.

florian

it doesn't matter when or where, but if someone solutes the mac, it's almost like standard practice to bash it. hey, mac bashing knobs, go use a mac for a month and then come back with your complaints. in the mean time, when people say something is an awesome product, stop screaming that they are wrong before you've even tried it.

there should be a method by which only user_agents including mac can post negative comments about a mac. don't ask me how that would work, but i'm sick of people bashing something they have zero experience with.

I can give several examples of this, but the bottom line is OS X is simply not mature enough to be considered rock solid yet, and there are several kinks that Apple is still working out in a 100% Apple provided package. I maintain an Apple HPC cluster, and have run into several stability issues. Here is an example of a recent one:

Apple recently (as of 2 weeks ago) released version 1.1.10 of their Ethernet driver. Previous versions of the driver for the Xserve G5's integrated Broadcom Gigabit Ethernet did not initialize the Broadcom ASIC's internal checksumming (which, according to Apple, was due to an error in Broadcom's documentation). Consequently, the driver would pass malformed packets to the TCP stack.

The result? A complete loss of all network functionality on the system. Having dealt with Sun hardware/software for a half decade I have only once experienced a problem like this and when it occured a Sun technician came on site to troubleshoot the problem (even bringing along a replacement logic board... "just in case") I pestered AppleCare for at least a month with this problem, which they could not solve and could only recommend that we pay more to upgrade to Apple's next level of support.

My attitude is... if you pay for a complete hardware/software package from a company, there really is absolutely no excuse for software failures. When these failures inevitably occur, my expectations are that the company should try their absolute hardest to remedy them in the shortest amount of time possible. OS X simply has not been time tested like Solaris and is still littered with flaws such as these.

For mission critical applications, I cannot recommend MacOS X. It's lingering immaturity will make itself evident to you over time. In my opinion, if you need a "rock solid" platform, Solaris is still the way to go.

Is there a rock solid OS? At all...

With all due respect, I am sure you're very right about it in that environment.....but this article was about a desktop. I don't think the arguement is really in a server market, at this point.

In that sense, Apple still is very green, and has a ways to go. Comparing them to Solaris isn't quite fair, IMO.

is here:
http://ptech.wsj.com/ptech.html
There is the original story and not the story about the story..

I read Mossberg's article. I also read the summary of it in Forbes: http://tinyurl.com/3vujr

From my own experience, Mossberg is right in his criticisms of Microsoft. I don't have enough experience to evaluate his comments about Apple. I'll just assume he's right, there.

I suspect Mossberg is the main topic of discussion over in Redmond right now. Why is that? Simple, he's the computer guy whose comments are read by management, from the PHB on up. The same applies to Forbes. While Mossberg didn't say that Apple's iMac G5 would be a great replacement for Windows machines in business, he came too close for comfort.

I suspect more executives will be asking, "What about Apple?" They may also start asking how to connect their new Powerbooks to the company network. That prospect should send cold shivers down Gates' and Balmer's spines. That would be a good thing.

Rock Solid when it is used for user applications.

it is more solid than windows XP on a user desktop (sure, informed users can run solid on anything but we are talking about UNINFORMED USERS)

My mom had a windows PC.... she called me 3 times a week to fix something on her computer... I made her get an emac...now I only here from her when she wants to call me to say hi.

she is an average user. she is the one that doe snot know that you have to run anti-Spyware apps and anti-adware apps to keep windows performing well... and if an average user needs 3rd party applications to fix a kludge in the system design through maintenance, is it really "good enough?"

You can turn all of that silly stuff off.

I paid close to $2400 for a top of the line iMac G5 two weeks ago, and it worth every penny. I am a UNIX admin, I love Linux but Mac OS X is the best workstation OS I ever have. This is my first Mac platform and its certainly not the last.

Windows' firewall blocks incoming traffic. Third party firewalls block outgoing traffic. The good ones let you tailor the rules for outbound traffic down to the individual process. The not so good ones grant permissions to individual programs. Either is better than what Microsoft offers.

As for your record over ten years, I can go you one better, and say I have never been infected by a virus, or hit by spyware when running Windows. That said, I still changed to Linux. It's a lot less work.

>> i'd argue that you can't afford a PC:

I don't care about the included software. Most of what I uses is freeware. So to me the iMac still is too expensive compared to a Dell. I would much rather use OS X, I just can't justify the price.

As for your record over ten years, I can go you one better, and say I have never been infected by a virus, or hit by spyware when running Windows. That said, I still changed to Linux. It's a lot less work.

You are saying in 10 years you never found spyware on your comp?

What's your secret? don't turn it on?

The argument on that site is rubbish. Nobody (sane) buys all that software.

Apple computers are expensive if your PC is built up incrementally (I couldn't afford a new monitor and disc drives every time). That's why mine's a G3 350MHz off eBay.

In the UK the difference between the Dell Dimension 3000 and and Apple eMac is £237 ($456).

If Apple would be the mainstream OS it would encounter the same problems as Windows has today, however I think Mac OS X is better thought out on the interaction design front, and I prefer the "Unix core" as well.

...I'm a Windows user but considering going cross-platform

When you figure out the cost of your computer, you should also factor in what your time is worth. I have a clamshell iBook that only crashed once in a three year period, and that was do to a third party RAM module that went bad. On the other hand, the two PCs that I own crash a few times a week. The time that I spend dicking around rebooting the machines, securing them against viri and spyware, and navigating with the crappy GUI of Windows XP has put me off Wintel machines. I'm placing an order for a new 12" G4 iBook next week. Aside from that, the prices on Apple's laptops are pretty decent and beat or match the prices on Wintel laptops. However, as nice as the G5 desktops are and how I would love to pick one up, they're still a little pricey. Granted, they're not some crappy generic box from Taiwan with a Dell case badge pasted on it; the G5s are quality machines that rival any highend workstation, but Apple should look into a more affordable lowend G5 box for those with smaller budgets. Also, please don't mention the eMac. They're perfectly fine machines, but they're only packing G4 CPUs and not everyone wants an integrated monitor, especially a CRT monitor. Apple needs a nice low-end, headless G5 for under $1000, preferebly closer to the $500 range.

I am a mac user and have been for as long as I remember, but i wish apple would sell just the bits ie the motherboard, ibm the chips then I could build myself a mac in what would be an ugly but cheap case. Upgrading bits as i go (im a student so i cant see myself buying any computer OEM) Currently im happy with my iBook and my 'built from bits' PC, but a G5 would be nice ;-)

>> I paid close to $2400 for a top of the line iMac G5 two weeks ago, and it worth every penny. I am a UNIX admin, I love Linux but Mac OS X is the best workstation OS I ever have. This is my first Mac platform and its certainly not the last

I'm the same I purchased an iBook G4 last year because I was sick and tired of Linux not working correctly on my x86 notebook, and when the Rev B Power Mac G5s came out I grabbed one of them. Linux is a great server OS, but it'll never be on my desktop again.

i just got my new iMac G5 a couple of days ago and I have to agree with this article. My wife had a Gateway computer running Windows XP and I had a G3.
One da she decided to use iPhoto because she wanted to edit a couple of pictures and for my surprise, she began to use it more often. The problem with that was that I had no time to use my G3. I told that I was going o get a new Dell computer and she almost killed me. "Are you crazy?%^&$^%#(*!!!"

She fell in love with it and when she saw the new G5, she almost fainted. She said that OS X was very easy to learn and that it was rock solid. No viruses, i doesn't crash, it is fast and beatiful.

this is my personal experience with Mac. Nothing against other Operative Systems, but I can tell that Mac is more stable and the software/apps are just awesome.

We are staing with Mac.....I might get one of the new Amiga computer later just to experiment with it. :-)

- 2501

I use OSX and XP (and Debian, Slackware, FreeBsd...)

I find XP to be very stable/reliable.
put it behind a firewall, maybe install a AV program, ditch IE and use a little common sense and you have a nice machine.

each OS/platform has its strength and weakness, but the WSJ author is almost spouting FUD!

Well, some things are good, some things are bad.

I reported a problem with the RTL driver a few months ago, and support said "what RTL driver? Apple doesn't make one."

Doh! It's there in the latest OS with an Apple copyright.

Speaking of Sun, I was in a bunch of datacenters when the cache failure thing was happening a few years back. Sun stonewalled everyone for months. One datacenter had rows of Sun boxes, and Sun totally denied there was any problem...until they admitted there was a problem and replaced the processors on all of them.

You get BS from every vendor.

Used G4s are like $400 and they run OSX

Yes OS-X has some great things going for it and is improving but so is Windows and Linux. Only time I'd get a crash in WindowsXP SP2 is if my system gets too hot playing games. If it does lock I remove the front of my case to let some airflow through and it resumes (old Athlon MP processors are known for their cooking ability which has been rectified with the new Athlon 64 cpu's).

Linux would just let the app crash back to desktop if it got desperate but not locked like Windows would.

Not sure what it would take to do the same for the G5's but I believe they are better vented than the average PC. Once set up Linux is a piece of piss to keep running and updated. Windows is more of a PIA and OS-X is great but how do you properly uninstall apps on OS-X?

I recently did an Adobe update on OS-X and all I could figure was to bin the app folders relevent to the ones I wanted to reinstall with the latest versions. Not sure if there was any further garbage left over from the process like I know Windows would have had with the same process. If it is actually just a matter of binning the app folders then kudos. As for firewalls, I run always behind a router with a firewall built in. Never had an issue. Software firewalls especialy on Windows are not the greatest solution especially as I prefer to have that task farmed out to another device leaving as much CPU cycles for what I want the computer to do.

Times are a changing and it is for the better, now if Apple would up spec their hardware (mem and vid card options) and reduce the price, they'd rake it in.

Ok not to go bashing on mac people or anything but my uniwill laptop which I made cost me 1,600 bucks with a 15.4 inch wide screen lcd which is real good (I play games and their is barely any difference between my 21 inch nec flat tube monitor and this screen), 512MB ddr 400, 40GB harddrive, radeon 9700 mobile 128mb, athlon 64 3400 mobile, and 24x cdrw/dvd combo.

I go to the apple store website and they got the same configured laptop with a 60GB harddrive for 2000 but has a G4 1.33 (anyone saying the A64 3400 at 2.2 is slower is dead wrong), the screen is .2 smaller, the ati radeon 9700 on that laptop only got half the gfx ram of whats in mine and its got half the ram in my system and its slightly slower. Since I did build the laptop just say my laptop cost like 100 bucks more if some retailer had it for sale then my laptop would cost 1700 its still a much better deal. Anyone like to point out any flaws in my conclusion that powerbooks are a rip off feel free to post I'll respond. Only reason to buy the powerbook is if you are an OS x lover and thats it but bang for the buck significantly goes to the PC.

P.S. The barebone laptop came from www.uniwill.com and the rest of the parts like the 3400 mobile, the harddrive and ran came from www.newegg.com and the damn thing was easier to build than a desktop system.

I agree with him on the G5 (the 20", since I haven't used a 17"). These are the nicest desktop machines I have ever used, by far.

Open them up and they are a thing of beauty as well. A pleasure to upgrade. The entire back comes off, and everything is right there--there is no where to hide any of the components.

I still use a Power Mac and an iBook, since they fit my usage patterns better, but I want one of these for my living room.

The only dissapointment is that Apple hasn't done a "Media Center". Everyone who cares enough to buy a Media Center PC should be drooling over these. Nothing else comes close.

You are saying in 10 years you never found spyware on your comp? What's your secret? don't turn it on?

LOL! You have to watch what you install, i.e. do a search on the software title and the term "spyware" before installing.

It helps to ditch Internet Explorer, or at least browse with something else. Browse without Javascript unless it's needed. Watch your e-mail like a hawk. View messages only as text. Be very careful with attachments. Use good spam filters.

Spybot Search and Destroy is your friend, especially its system lock down features.

Use layers, like a router and a software firewall.

Oddly enough, I have found anti-virus software less effective over the last few years. Weekly updates don't cut it anymore. Even daily updates will miss a few.

Anyway, that's what I did.

Yes, I could also run debian linux with all ports closed and use only lynx as my browser. And you can close the door just in case some hacker tries to sneak in your flat. Surely no spyware is going to infect your machine if you live like an ermit!

Many people just don't want to spend their life fighting evil. If you move to some other quieter platform then you are indeed safer. It's not because the platform is inherently safer. I am sure if apple had 95% of the OS share they would face similar difficulties. At times I get dozens of viruses a day on some e-mail accounts. Of course they are windows progs. I am pretty certain you can find the same security holes in some freeware IM client on OSX as was found on MSN/Win. There is just too little interest to do so and that's fine!

I of course never got a virus running on my debian system. Hell, you know I tried it just won't compile! Someone got a working patch for version 1.3.23b?

The reason I purchased an ibook last week (still waiting eagerly to see it coming in the mail) is just that I want a nice, beautiful system, that works fine out of the box and doesn't require me to make use of _any_ skill to be safe. I don't want to have to spend more time configuring my machine and limiting my activity to be safer.

I still need to have a PC for my work (many j2me/midp emulators and tools are not available outside windows). But for the pleasure part of my life, I'd rather get something that's easy and attractive, and yes.. huh? Different?

Here's my view

At home:
WinXP machine + half-life 2 = fun fun fun
WinXP machine + 1 year = Time to install linux

(Just why does windows slow down so darn much with time?)

At work:
Linux machine = great work machine
Linux machine + latest patches = broken, reinstall linux
Linux machine + 6 months = horribly outdated, upgrade linux

Mac OX X machine = awesome work machine. No half-life 2 though.

Well, it sounds like you think you got a good deal, so be happy. If you are looking for opinions though, then seems like $1600 is a lot for a game machine. You could've got an Xbox or PS2 for less money.

How long does the battery last on that laptop? How thin and how much does the laptop weigh?

I 100% agree with that assessment.

and the reason that windows slows down is because the registry (yes that great invention from MS that has worked so well) gets boated.

it is probably 2 inches thick and has a 1.5 hour life.

G5 is real fast, but OS X doesn't manage to max out it's speed. yet...

I bought my first Mac about a year ago, a 12" PowerBook. It replaced a fairly new P4M Dell Inspiron with a 15" screen, and I have never looked back. I'm no zealot, I have an A64 3400 desktop I built myself, but this PowerBook is the best portable I've owned. Add to all that the 4 hours of battery life, and I just feel for the guys in my class carrying around their power bricks. Do I wish it played Half Life 2? Ok, maybe once in a while, but for the most part, I do work on it, and I'm much more productive on it, despite the small screen.

But really, it's the OS guys. OS X is just plain awesome. There aren't 1001 services running for things that I will never ever use, I don't bother with virus software that saps the speed out of your box.. and really, the amount of software that is available, especially once you include open source build systems like fink and darwin ports, and it's an extremely versatile, competent, and idiot proof experience.

If only my student budget could afford a G5

Bascule,

I think you have a valid point about Sparc being a more mature platform than Xserver. It's a pity then that Sun are pushing for a move to x86.

It is pretty bad to sell a server that's not been properly tested.

Your comments ...

> pestered AppleCare for at least a month with this problem, which they could not solve and could only recommend that we pay more to upgrade to Apple's next level of suppor

> if you pay for a complete hardware/software package from a company, there really is absolutely no excuse for software failures

... are really about cost. If you can afford Sun support then surely your could upgrade your AppleCare. I don't know what the policy with Apple is, but with Sun you can't even move one of thier boxes from one rack to another without voiding the warranty. If you don't pay a certified technician to do move a box, the warranty is void and you have to buy a new box if you want it supported.

Also, you can't just blame Apple for the complete loss of network. Why was there so much corruption? Ethernet has a very low error rate in normal conditions.

I debunked that price comparison in the previous Mac flamebait thread. Refer to my post there. Simply put, it's BS. You can make a case that Macs are similar in price to x86 machines at the mid-high end and on laptops, but you certainly can't at the low end.

it is probably 2 inches thick and has a 1.5 hour life.


The Powerbook is an inch thinner, two pounds lighter, and you can squeeze out two and a half to three hours out of the battery while playing a DVD. The Powerbook (and iBooks) are better portables than your machine. For someone who wants a laptop that has offers desktop performance, the Uniwill is pretty decent (so long as you're not running Windows on it ;-)), but if you want a machine that is truly portable, the Powerbook is great. One of my budies recently purchased a Toshiba notebook. It's an impressive beast: 2.4 gHz Pentium 4, 17" screen, etc. Very nice machine. He can't wait to get rid of it, and get a tiny little iBook. His Toshiba offers pretty decent performance, but it's too damn heavy to carry around all of the time.

Windows firewall doesn't do stateful inspection and AFAIK it only filters one way.

"On the other hand, the two PCs that I own crash a few times a week. "

Then fix them, something is broke on them, most likely hardware, try the ram.


___________

On a differant note, I recently bought a powermac G5, and it kenel panics every few days and is currently at the store trying to figure out the problem, so i'm back the my windows computer. So you arn't getting away from hardware issues going to mac, they happen no matter where you go.

Is the mac nice, yeah, I like it so far, but at the same time I'm shocked often by all that it can't do, even simple things, like flip through photos fast and easy. Or how limited safari is and so forth. The more I use it the more the reality is there isn't much differance between it and windows, but it is nice, and it's differant. But plenty of room for improvement there.

I hate people having holy wars over the 2, they work both basicly the same in overall use. Both have places for improvement.

"old Athlon MP processors are known for their cooking ability which has been rectified with the new Athlon 64 cpu's"

Actually, the A64 sucks a ton of juice, too. Heatsink design and manufacturers' understanding of heat issues has come on in leaps and bounds in the last two or three years, though, pushed by the enthusiast market, so you're far less likely to buy a box which will have heat issues. (If you bought a whitebox Athlon tbird, you either got a machine that overheated under load or you got a machine with a Delta-type fan that sounded like a jet engine taking off. People used to *intentionally buy* those Delta fans. Looking back now it seems like a bad dream...)

I was not talking about my laptop. if you read a little slower you will see the probably in there.

I was commenting on what the size of that other guy's laptop probably is.

if you want to construct your own filing system for your photos you are free to do so. iPhoto can be pointed to any folder you wish, or you can simply use the file system with preview on and max iCon size for that folder.

and if you have something that you think you can not do, then you just do not know how to do it on the Mac.

there are no limitations on OS X. if people can get KDE and Gnome environments running on it, the system can be flexed to do what ever it is you like.

As I pointed out in other laptop threads, Apple don't make the smallest laptops. The absolute smallest would be Sony (Google for Vaio U101 if you want to know what a REALLY small laptop looks like - it was way too small to be useful, but it's funny), and currently Fujitsu, JVC and Dialogue (the start-up that manufacturers the Flybook) make 8.9" laptops in the form factor created by Sony for their old Picturebook series. I can fit my four year old vintage Picturebook in a courier bag with an entire Japanese language course and my packed lunch . Battery life sucks as it's an early model with P2 processor, but later Picturebooks used a Crusoe and had great battery life, current similar systems all use Centrino and get good life.

Why I like Mac OS X:

~ The UI is Consistent. Drag and drop works everywhere. Keyboard commands are the same between applications. Everything just works. It's pretty too.

~ Stable. Yes I've had it crash a few times. But it's stability is impressive. WinXP is actually not too bad but in my experience not as good as Mac. And please don't start in about Solaris...have you ever tried to use Solaris as your desktop workstation (by choice)...didn't think so.

~ The file system is consistent. It looks a little wierd if you're coming from UNIX but once you 'get it' it makes a lot of sense.

~ It's UNIX baby! I love my bash shell. Script once, run anywhere ;-) (Except on windows of course, and don't mention cygwin...cygwin is NOT well integrated into windows)

~ Installation of apps doens't leave you scratching your head thinking "what did that installer just do". In general, if you don't like an app drag it to the trash can and it's gone.

~ Java. It's well integrated into Mac OS X. I write a lot of Java apps, therefore I spend a lot of time helping windows users get Java 'working' on their machines. It just works on the Mac. Why? Because MS doesn't want Java to work well on windows, Apple wants it to work on OS X.

yeah and how much were those again? oh yeah... MORE than a figen power book.

mmm yeah, great.

It seems alot of people paint apple as elitist. But thats a sterotype based on the most vocal of past apple users. I think people should stop giving apple such a bad rap. Their just a company who creates well designed products not some Gochi.

Amazing what a few shares in a newly bouyant stock and a little payola under the table can do for IT journalism.

Slip him another 10K Stevo he deserves it!

I, like you, run Debian. Unlike you, I continue to use it as a desktop in my house. Why? Not "because it's quieter," but because in part it's more secure by design, just like the Apple OS/X is.

I changed my father over to Linux to reduce the amount of support needed. I got a "support call" the other day, though. He wanted to know how to update the anti-virus software. I gave him several reasons why he didn't have any, anymore. Only one was because the OS was quieter (I'm assuming "security by obscurity").

1) Pretty much every virus out there runs on Windows.
2) You can't double-click and launch an executable attachment.
3) Even if you saved the attachment to disk and made it executable, it would not have access to your system.

Finally, here is how I browse: I use Firefox with the Tabbed Browser extension. This lets me browse with images, Javascript, and plug-ins turned off. A double, or right click lets me turn any of that on when I need them. I use a fairly large "hosts" file. I use the Adblock extension. I block cookies, and use Cookie Culler to remove cookies when I'm done with them. Since I have a fixed IP, I tend to use an anonymizing proxy. I use the User Agent Switcher extension. You get the idea.

Oh, and I never use Lynx. Links is a better text only browser. OSNews looks better without graphics.

You wrote:

When you figure out the cost of your computer, you should also factor in what your time is worth. I have a clamshell iBook that only crashed once in a three year period, and that was do to a third party RAM module that went bad. On the other hand, the two PCs that I own crash a few times a week. The time that I spend dicking around rebooting the machines, securing them against viri and spyware, and navigating with the crappy GUI of Windows XP has put me off Wintel machines. I'm placing an order for a new 12" G4 iBook next week. Aside from that, the prices on Apple's laptops are pretty decent and beat or match the prices on Wintel laptops. However, as nice as the G5 desktops are and how I would love to pick one up, they're still a little pricey. Granted, they're not some crappy generic box from Taiwan with a Dell case badge pasted on it; the G5s are quality machines that rival any highend workstation, but Apple should look into a more affordable lowend G5 box for those with smaller budgets. Also, please don't mention the eMac. They're perfectly fine machines, but they're only packing G4 CPUs and not everyone wants an integrated monitor, especially a CRT monitor. Apple needs a nice low-end, headless G5 for under $1000, preferebly closer to the $500 range.


You only want Apple to make a headless Mac so you can jack in your monitor you already own to cut down the cost. When was Apple in the business of making sure your used hardware gets further use?

At a time when script kiddies scour entire networks, scanning thousands (if not millions) of computers each month, is it really smart to pretend that the Mac's small market share presents an unattractive target for digital criminals ?

Script kiddies can spend their whole lives scanning nothing but Mac networks, but if their scanning tools aren't written to try and exploit Macs, it's not going to do them much good.

You should not be asking whether OS X's relative matters to script kiddies, you should be asking if it matters to the people who write the tools they use.

You are saying in 10 years you never found spyware on your comp?

Nope. Never had a virus either.

What's your secret? don't turn it on?

Don't run as admin, don't browse dodgy sites. More recently (~9-12 months), don't use IE for anything except Windows Update and Exchange OWA.

On the other hand, the two PCs that I own crash a few times a week.

Your machines are broken, get them fixed. You allude that you wouldn't put up with it from your Mac, so why the hell do you put up with it from your PCs ? So you can sound smug on OSNews talking about how unstable they are ?

Windows firewall doesn't do stateful inspection and AFAIK it only filters one way.

The Windows firewall is, indeed, stateful.

actually its 1 inch thick, 3 hours of batterylife and thats without powerplay from ati enabled. That cool n quiet feature works wonders for batterylife and thats funny you mentioned pentium 4 laptops jack because I used to have one made by medion and that was one power hungry laptop. The battery on that medion weighed 3 pounds alone which is funny and only lasted 2 hours on mobile mode and that mode made things noticably slow while the uniwill's mobile mode worked kinda fast that I can still play halflife 2 on it with somewhat noticably framerate drops.

The uniwill's battery is 3 times smaller and lighter than the medion and probably the only drawback I had with the uniwill is that it ended up being wider since the screen is .4 inches bigger. Also I actually didn't weigh this laptop but it is obviously lighter than my old one as I can tell the difference when I pick the medion up and when I pick up the uniwill. I think it is around slightly over 5 pounds since the medion is 6.5 pounds. Also that damn medion was noisy even in mobile mode while the fans barely turn on with the uniwills mobile mode that I didn't even notice the thing is on unless I saw the leds on the side glowing. Also 1600 for gaming machine ya right. I use this machine in school to learn computer languages in college like Visual Basic, Cobalt, C++, ect. Also its comes in handy when fixing other peoples computers on the go, very portable LAN gaming machine (in my opinion halo 2 is overrated and doesn't deserve game of the year), mobile net surfing on my campus, good note taking since I am the note recorder of the group and I just email the notes to them (great when they are sick isn't it) and a whole bunch of other things I can't even think of but probably don't do much often. On this machine my spyware problems are almost gone ever since I switched to firefox and literally do scans once a month with adware and spybot and viruses mysteriously don't affect my machine for some reason. I remember viruses screwing up my machine to the point of forced backup and reformatting but in SP 2 they are their but not doing anything (I guess NX bit virus protection works but I am still skeptical). Also 1001 services? I am only running 20 processes in total but I guess joe wouldn't know how to turn off the rest of them. Joe doesn't even know about firefox, spybot and avg antivirus.

Anyways I do like apple and their OS X but what turned me off ultimatly is gaming and hardware. If OS X game releases was only 1-3 months between windows releases and If you can change that G4 with a faster G4 or G5 or whatever in a year or 2 I'd "switch" but what I see right now is gaming on OS X is falling further behind (doom 3 isn't even out yet and its opengl not direct x even linux got doom 3) and I don't even see G5 cpus for sale (much less G4 mobile cpus). If I need more speed and amd is still speeding up socket 754 mobile cpus and all the software I need is still windows only then switching ain't an option. I don't need to use OS X to know that. Great OS since I used to screw around with it at my friends house but its useless to gamers and people who want bang for the buck performance.

Also jack you mentioned mobility. Well then pentium m kits are also available with the same specs as my uniwill 258KA and is thinner, lighter than plus beats it when it comes to power usage. I was very suprised that even pentium m cpus are sold these days but it also seems barebone laptops are much more available to end users. Apple should learn from uniwill and offer barebones of their own.

3) Even if you saved the attachment to disk and made it executable, it would not have access to your system.

This is a really, really worthless reason. I guarantee your Dad considers his documents, mp3s, porn, etc far more valuable than OS sytsem files even he could reinstall in under an hour.

point me at the bit where I said they were cheap.

(i paid UKP600 for my Picturebook three years ago, pretty reasonable. There again, that was on eBay.)

While lower-end Apple laptops are quite appealing, I found it hard to persuade myself to consider Powerbooks. I am currently looking for a new "primary machine" laptop that I could use instead of my aging Duron 800. My workload consists mostly of programming, with some gaming and lighter duty stuff mixed in. My criteria include fairly fast CPU (i.e. no VIA or Transmeta stuff) - Pentium M 1.6 or any A64 is quite fine for me, 15" SXGA screen (because using development environments with low resolutions sucks), decent graphics for an occasional game (9200 aka 8500 aka 7500 is really damn old, but 9600 or higher is certainly good enough), and 512 megs of memory with one slot free for future expansion. It should be luggable without too much effort (<4 kg).
Unfortunately, while I really would like to get a 15" Powerbook, it happens to be way out of my budget - NCIX will assemble me Asus M6Ne/Pentium M 1.6/512 RAM in one module/60GB 5400 rpm/Combo drive for $1775 canadian. Apple student store charges $2650 for
1.33GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 1 SO-DIMM
• 60GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200 rpm
• Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
....
It's definitely nice, but I cannot justify price premium to myself. Size & weight are quite close. Powerbook has juicier (and mostly useless for me) I/O: gigabit ethernet, firewire 800, DVI, bluetooth. M6Ne offers higher screen resolution, faster CPU and disk, and multi-button touchpad (old habits die hard). Looks even enough to me. Fashion statement does not count - chic is nice and cool, but I got loans to pay.

"You only want Apple to make a headless Mac so you can jack in your monitor you already own to cut down the cost. When was Apple in the business of making sure your used hardware gets further use?"

Well, yes, he's a consumer. With a need. Colour me shocked! Maybe Apple *should* be in the business of making used hardware get further use, if it wants to sell *more* hardware.

@drsmithy: sorry, I should've said it doesn't do full stateful packet inspection (SPI).

one interesting trend with the pentium M CPUs is people buying them for *non*-laptop boxes - I've seen a few projects putting them into mini-ITX cases (you can buy mini-ITX pentium M motherboards too). One used a northbridge cooler to cool the CPU, heheh...this could be another reason why they're generally available now and not just sold to integrators.

1775 in canadian thats like 1600 right? Anyways good deal but for some reason I see dothans getting cheaper and kinda suprised you aren't getting a better deal than me. Check out http://www.avadirect.com which is where I got my barebone kit.

@drsmithy: sorry, I should've said it doesn't do full stateful packet inspection (SPI).

Er, yes it does. That's (by definition) what a "stateful firewall" does.

Perhaps you are working with a different definition of "stateful packet inspection" ?

Ya overclock those suckers to 2.3 off copper heatsink and they end up beating athlon FX 55 in gaming . Pentium M motherboards cost 250 bucks though . I am kinda curious how a top of the line G5 would do in half life 2 and doom 3 against a Athlon FX 55? Guess we will find out in 6 months.

1,775.00 CAD = 1,446.55 USD (by xe.com).
And I am not chasing the absolute lowest price and assembling myself. I'd rather have company do this and be responsible for whole thing.

I am not sure why people complain about Apple Computer prices. The low end Power MAC starts at $1500 and you can always add stuff, such as better video and more memory later. Now the more high end systems are dual CPU's with faster frontside bus than Intel CPUs. And do not forget that you are getting 64-bit RISC CPU. I think a system that performs equally as a Power MAC will cost almost the same price as the Apple hardware. In addition to the hardware you buy consider the software costs:
Microsoft XP license
Microsoft Office license
Antivirus Software
The above can set you back at least $500 to $700. Also do not forget that the upcoming version of Mac OS X will have 64-bit support. Now if you are thinking about a gaming PCs then the prices might go even higher than Power MACs. Look at Alienware for example.
Bottom line, for me, is that you buy high quality workstation at the same or better price than a 32-bit Intel/AMD system.

umm, actually I just swapped out my G4 400 MHz CPU for a nice G4 1 GHz CPU. I upgraded the Video to a GF3 TI and Added a dual layer DVD-/+RW drive.

1) x86-64 processors are (cheaper, and) 64bit. Yes, they're CISC, but you may do well to understand what RISC really means, and why CISC is actually more efficient in most systems than RISC at this point in time, and going forward in the future. Processor speeds grow exponentially faster than memory speeds, and that creates a bus bandwidth bottleneck. CISC helps to alleviate that bottleneck but sending more efficient instructions across the bus. (Laymen's terms)

2) Your inclusion of the OS and Office into the cost of a PC is laughable. I'm assuming you got OSX for free? Or that Microsoft doesn't make Office for Mac? Come on now. Moreover, XP when purchased with an actual system costs the end user a grand total of about $50. Not the $200 you pay when you buy it standalone in a store. You're also, of course, free to use a free OS. You're also, of course, free to use a free Office application (OpenOffice.org), just as you are on a Mac. And you're also, of course, free to use a free antivirus solution (AVG, Anti-Vir - Most people can even get by with a scan from Stinger once in a while since about 20 virii account for about 95% of infections - guesstimate numbers, but you get the point)

3) Finally, the broadsweeping generalization that "Mac's perform just as well as PC's" is simply ignorant. Mac's perform better *in some tasks*, just as they perform a lot worse *in some tasks*.

Here's the point: Choose the right platform for the right job, and stop this needless bantering back and forth with unthought statements from both sides. I've deployed Macs with OSX for some tasks, I've deployed Intels for others, I've deployed AMD x86-32's for others, x86-64's for yet others, and chosen between XP, Linux, or UNIX/BSD variants for all of them. There is no one end-all be-all solution for everything, even in a genre as basic as the "desktop."

"Now the more high end systems are dual CPU's with faster frontside bus than Intel CPUs. And do not forget that you are"

Not compared to Opteron - and it doesn't show up in benchmarks...

"getting 64-bit RISC CPU. I think a system that performs "

So? What do you think that buys you?

"equally as a Power MAC will cost almost the same price as the Apple hardware. In addition to the hardware you buy "

Not quite. Those expensive dual-Xeon workstation boxes have options not available for the Mac. Real workstation hardware and all.

"consider the software costs:
Microsoft XP license"

Comes with the machine - just as with the Mac.

"Microsoft Office license"

If you don't have to use this on the Mac, why would you need to buy it for Windows?

"Antivirus Software"

~$40 if you need it at all.

"The above can set you back at least $500 to $700. Also do not forget that the upcoming version of Mac OS X will have 64-bit support. Now if you are thinking about a gaming PCs then the prices""

Actually, I'm thinking about real workstation use and the Mac lacks both software and hardware for those tasks. Based on that, the Mac will always be the more expensive option as it'd have to be paired with a PC.

Maybe. Looks like I've been reading bad information again, in that case. You know a lot more about Windows than me from your posts, so I defer to you on this one.

From penguincomputing.com Tempest 2100 Workstation (Default Configuration):
Dual AMD Opteron 242 Processors
1GB Low Profile PC2700 ECC DDR (2 x 512MB)
80GB, SATA, 7200RPM (8MB cache)
52/32/52/16 IDE CD-RW/DVD-ROM
ASUS A7000/T Radeon AGP w/ 64MB DDR RAM
Preload, SuSE Professional 9.1 w/ Media

Total Cost
$ 2166.30


From apple.com (I added more memory only)
Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra w/64MB DDR SDRAM
56k V.92 internal modem
8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total Cost $2,224.00


I rest my case.

I guarantee your Dad considers his documents, mp3s, porn, etc far more valuable than OS sytsem files even he could reinstall in under an hour.

He doesn't really have any mp3s or porn. He has some documents, though. On his machine, it would be fairly easy to create a new user and copy his documents over to it. In Linux, that would be the end of the virus attack. Since I am the one that would clean up the mess (and I cleaned up a rather big one when he ran Windows), I find system files and directories that cannot be written to a plus. If the virus is limited to the home directory, it is easier to track down, or isolate.

"You are saying in 10 years you never found spyware on your comp?

What's your secret? don't turn it on?"

It's not that bad... just don't use IE. Using IE, you will always find some after surfing. Using some other browser, you never will.

Uniwill laptop:

Width: 14" (358mm)
Depth: 10.8" (275mm)
Height: 1.5" (40mm)
Weight: 7.7 lbs, (3.5 kg)
max memory 1gb.
15.4" screen 1280x800

Powerbook 15":
* Height: 1.1 inches (2.8 cm)
* Width: 13.7 inches (34.8 cm)
* Depth: 9.5 inches (24.1 cm)
* Weight: 5.7 pounds (2.6 kg) with battery and optical drive installed (9)
Support for millions of colors at 1280 x 854 pixel resolution

so the 15" powerbook is lighter, smaller, higher resolution, gets better battery life can have a built in bluetooth module, has firewire connections, gigabit ethernet, dvd burner, and an illuminated keyboard.

Now I still think you got a good deal, but don't spread misinformation.

It's not that bad... just don't use IE. Using IE, you will always find some after surfing. Using some other browser, you never will.

All have had there problems:

1) Opera:http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/11762
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/319813
2) Firefox:http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/11311
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/375016
3) Mozilla:http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/11760
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/10896

The important difference is:how quick is reacted upon vulnerabillity discovery? With the OS's i know something about like Linux,FreeBSD,OpenBSD, the package maintainers and or developers are most of the times the ones who discover the holes themselves.Wheras on other platforms some people (users/customers) have to experience a lot of irritation before something is been done to eliminate the discovered vulnerability altogether.The interaction in the opensource world is less about status,which car you drive,how much stock you have,.. but more to the point.
Besides that the info you can obtain via mailing-lists,OS forums,etc is mostly free.You don't have to go to a expensive seminars with champagne at the end as a reward for being so stupid to spend so much money on nothing.Well mostly,not allways.

(usual disclaimer: not a reflection of employment)
George, I don't doubt you at all, but I believe most PC shoppers, especially anyone savvy enough to consider penguincomputing, is not going to go for that price unless they *really* needed support from them (and again, for personal uses, I doubt anyone's going to pay that).

As nice as Mac OSX may be, if you're willing to build your own machine I don't think you can ever get a comparable new Mac that's even remotely close in price:

Fry's
-----
- Athlon64 3000 (2 Ghz) retail + MSI mobo w/ onboard everything incl sata and firewire = $199
- Maxtor 200GB 7200rpm 8Mb cache, retail = $89
- Coolermaster 80mm bb fan = $2

Newegg.com
----------
- Corsair 1GB (2x512) value PC3200 = $145
- Foxconn case w/ 350w PSU, 80mm rear fan = $32.50
- eVGA Nvidia FX5200 128mb AGP 8x, retail = $46

pcconnection.com
----------------
- NEC Dual Layer 16x DVD burner = $49

** Total: $562.50


Software (without support)
--------------------------
- Solaris 10 + OSS: free (add $8 for an oem Intel Pro100 NIC from www.centrix-intl.com)
- Suse 9.2 Professional from pctech101.com: $11.99


Now, if you're willing to take the refurbished/surplus/oem route and are willing to scrounge around a bit more, I've been able to get hardware at ridiculously cheap prices:

Local computer fair
-------------------
- Adaptec 3400s, 64-bit 4-channel SCSI U160, HW raid 0,1,5 w/ 32mb sodimm = $90
.. + 64mb PC100 sodimm ECC = $20
- 2 GB worth of *Registered* ECC ddr = $300
- U320 scsi cable 5 connector + terminator, oem = $15

hypermicro.com
--------------
- Seagate 146GB SCSI U320 10k rpm, 8mb cache, factory refurb + 1yr warranty = $219

ecost.com
---------
- *new* retail LSI SCSI U320 pci-x 2-channel hw raid 0,1 (53c1030; fully supported in Solaris 10, btw) = $128.51

newegg.com
----------
- refurb Tyan 760mpx S2466N dual Athlon mobo w/ 64bit,66mhz pci = $169

spartantech.com
---------------
- oem Athlon Xp 2400 (2Ghz, 266mhz fsb; connect last of L5 bridge to make it MP capable) = $67 x 2


.. though I guess Mac's justly deserved popularity with the idea of having everything "just work" would usually preclude this kind of hardware advantage.

I have never had spyware on my windows computer:

-I run Mozilla/Opera/Netscape (when no Mozilla was available)
-I don't use Outlook
-I don't open attachments
-I use virus checked webmail
-I use a firewall

That's all you need...

I am looking at buying an eMac in the next six months. For those who aren't familiar, it's similar to the old G3 iMacs, but with a 17" flat CRT, a G4 processor, and a DVD-RW. They go for $999, or $799 if all you need is a CD-RW/DVD combo. Now sure, you can get a comparably equipped PC from any major manufacturer for around $500. But, you will have Windows XP and that's it. No firewall to speak of, a crappy browser and an email client with so many security holes they should call it Swiss Cheese Express. If you want to create professional-quality DVD movies, throw down $400 for Ulead DVD Workshop. Making music more your thing? Try $299 for Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit Pro). Don't forget photo management; how about $50 for ACDSee? Now, that $500 bargain PC has jumped to around $1250, and chances are it doesn't even have a hardware accelerated 3D card.

With the eMac, I'll be getting a beautiful and easy-to-use UI, a decent 3D accelerator, a content creation suite that rivals the above mentioned software, and best of all, a rock-solid UNIX-based foundation. Add to that no more spyware or viruses, and you have a time-saving, productive and fun workstation.

Yes, I will keep a PC around for x86 Linux, but I am looking forward to being bug-free and tweak-free for the majority of my computing experience.

For those who are interested, here's a link:

http://www.apple.com/emac/

Yeah right. Audition (Cool Edit Pro), the professional tool, is now considered the right substitute for "look! I got 5 notes together" "music" editors. How about looking in the same ballpark for replacement software?
Ulead DVD Workshop? Now that is interesting. Why do you need to replace a handholding consumer editor with professional one? How about taking a same class piece of software (such as DVD MovieFactory 3 - DISC CREATOR Edition for $80)?
Do you buy an excavator if you need to dig a 50 cm deep hole in your backyard? That's what you appear to be doing with software.

My company has 3500 desktop computers. About 400 of them are Apples ranging from early G4 to the new G5’s, the rest of our equipment are Dells. From an enterprise support perspective Apple is not quite the end all desktop computer the world raves about. Our Macs have video card failures, motherboard failures, hard drive failures….the list goes on. This hardly separates them from any other computer company. Do our Macs get Spyware…no, viruses…no, but neither do our Dell boxes. This is due in part because we have very heavy handed security policies enforced on the desktop to prevent this from happening. From a software perspective we also reload the Mac OS and we also reload software….just like we do on our Dells. Of coarse, we do this less on the Mac’s mainly because we have less of them. I have seen Photoshop lockup on our Dells and Macs, same with Office. Do I blame Mac or Dell? Not at all. Apple doesn’t make it’s video cards any more than Dell does and the same goes for several other hardware components in each makers respective pieces of equipment. While the author of this article is certainly entitled to his opinions I have to wonder if he would write his article the same way after using the product in the real world for a month.

Your selection of dual processor systems is interesting. Most people aren't using dual's on the desktop, so I'm going to presume you're making a workstation, probably a graphics workstation. In which case you'd do well to select the Mac. Seeing my point yet? Specific task, ends up going one direction or the other. Where the "Mac price premium" becomes a myth is indeed in the business workstation level environment.

"I would much rather use OS X, I just can't justify the price."

I'm not saying it's not a viable argument, but it's getting old. Really.
Try driving a Mac for a while, give it an honest chance. It's really nice to use. Of course, I'm biased after 10 years .

A few years back, I wanted to have a high-end Mac too. And they were priced really ridiculously. I want to be a customer but you have to allow to buy something decent. $6,000 dollars or thereabouts was just too much. Not a matter of justifying the cost, I could not produce money like that just to buy a computer.

Today you still can't call them cheap, but now you can actually afford a machine that makes the 6K one look like a banana on a tricycle.
But now there are many cheaper options and they come with an OS that is a joy to use.
As long as Apple makes computers that are so much fun to use, I'm buying them.

I work with Windows every day, hours on end. From the point of view of user experience, I don't know anything that beats a Mac for that price.

But don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself.

I am a sane person, therefore I will say that Apple's hardware is super expensive.

However, it is a completely awesome platform. I was fortunate to get an iMac G4 1.25 GHz logic board for very cheap, so I am now the pround owner of a home-built macintosh. I love it.

After using it for 2 months now, I'm still not sure yet if I could justify paying full price for a new mac. My concern is that once this mac is obselete, I'll have to go back to the PC (I doubt I'll be able to ever find a good deal like this on a mac again...it only cost me about $400 to build). I can just as easily use Windows, but I love OS X because it looks so much nicer and has UNIX as its base.

Have you recently checked the prices and specs of Sun's Blade 150 ? Anyway even in a medium range workstation (I would consider the iMac G5) you buy a high quality LCD with a decent CPU. If you price a medium range PC from a known maker with a high quality LCD screen you are coming to the same price as the iMac G5 (20 inch model). As for the rest of the people who claim to do not use IE, Outlook, etc... Yeah lynx and pine are excellent Apps but do not provide any usefull functionality (All GUI Browsers have flaws). Gnome and KDE is cool and all but it will never come close to the Mac OS X GUI.
Apple users are considered elitists. Yes we are, and our money is well spent. For the PC user who can't afford to buy a Mac and complain about the price...well keep drooling. Wait few years until Microsoft will copy once again the GUI of the Mac OS.

What you spend is what you buy.

Everyone is responding to his post about not having virus/spyware problems on windows.

His other comment was the most observant, and it's about the part of this story that everyone is overlooking. This is an article from the Wall Street Journal. It's in the print edition (I know as it's sitting on my coffee table).

But for the WSJ to put that article in print is a fairly big deal. We're talking about a major publication that rarely even acknowledges that anyone but MS exists. And while they occasionally acknowledge server competitors, it is even more rare for them to acknowledge, let alone promote a desktop alternative. And this is to a non-technical, older demographic.

I don't care if you love or hate mac. Personally, I'm on the fence. Regardless, True or not, some things are significant because you'd never expect to hear them from an unexpected source.

Wow, another round of “I can build something for less than paying others to put it together for me.”. This is truly an ancient concept that has been reiterated so often that it is stale news. It is always so exciting (yawn) to find someone who has stumbled onto the obvious.

Here are some uninteresting facts: My eyes are unable to discern the difference between a photograph that is “improved” over the original unless drastic changes have been made so I do not need expensive software for correcting my poorly taken pictures. On the other hand my sense of smell (taste) is superior to most humans (Yes, I have been paid to identify odors, etc.) and I do not mind paying a little more for such pleasures as dining. My hearing is dimming from my youthful days so I do not hear the very high notes with clarity (including their wonderful overtones) so investing in a very expensive sound system makes no sense unless it is for others to enjoy. I do not like or understand or enjoy the paintings of Dali or Picasso but I do like the work of Michelangelo. These are the some of the traits that make me who I am.

I do not press upon others about how erudite I am when they do not have these same traits and abilities or appreciation for things. I keep reading about folks at this site that “prove” they can get a superior computer system for much less. Or, my computer OS is great and yours sucks. How juvenile, or less.

Let’s face it. If you do not see the difference between a $1200 monitor and a $300 one it does not make one superior or others dumb. It really says that you are unable to visually see the difference or you really can’t afford the more expensive model. In that case one would be correct to assume that the cheap monitor is perfectly acceptable. If you have no eye for good design or you are simply utilitarian then it would be proper for you to not pay extra for things that have no aesthetic value to you. Etc., etc, etc.

But how can one be so blind as to think that anyone can set the criteria for what is acceptable and what is stupid. We do not represent the average user if there is such a thing. So please, let’s discuss OS issues and not extraneous, dull, and overly discussed generalities of, “I am smart and you aren’t”. Or “I can spit further than you can”. Or “My criteria of a computing experience is superior to yours”. Or “My OS has no competitors”, etc. For those who want to have such childish and immature discussions I suggest that a separate website be set up to handle these exciting subject.

Everyone who says macs are the best desktop are speaking about their own personal needs. If you are joe bloe and you are deciding between a gateway and a mac for surfing the web, checking email, making xmas cards, etc. then sure, a mac would be great. But for people like me, who have never bought a prebuilt computer... people who do so many things that the pure strength in numbers in terms of both support and extreme software title redundancy/diversity is something the mac can't touch.

These are tools. Your little hybrid vehicle with bubbly dome lights and a voice that welcomes you when you get into the cushiony cockpit might make you feel warm and fuzzy, and might be worth the high cost... but I have more money into my ugly truck, with lots of extra tools slapped onto it so that I can get the job done. No matter how nice OSX is, the current situation is that a power user has more opportunities with a serious x86 machine. It might be different in the future. But this is just how it is right now.

I hope that this ends the mac vs wintel debate forever. I'm glad I could lay this to rest.

No matter how nice OSX is, the current situation is that a power user has more opportunities with a serious x86 machine.

What are some examples?

For games, yes of course that's true.

But what are some of these "extra tools" that pcs have that can complete jobs that a mac can't?

[i]No matter how nice OSX is, the current situation is that a power user has more opportunities with a serious x86 machine.[i]

Aren't generalizations great!? I love folks who just wave their hands and say 'X is true' without actually providing any facts. You could probably find a nice job in Bush's cabinet.

I use a vareity of systems. Generally the OS isn't too important (although it's very handy to have a UNIX shell) for the work I do. Most of the applications I use can be found on a number of platforms (for example, matlab, java, netcdf libraries, SQL tools and databases, C compilers, etc). The only exceptions are that I need a Windows platform to run ArcGIS and Microsoft SQL Enterprise Manager (Oh, and Half-life 2). My wife, on the other hand, needs a Mac platform for her profession as a video editor.

So I would say that the 'opportunities' are generally the same on both platforms. If you have specialized needs then you may be restricted to a particular vendor.

contrary to the opinion of a growing body of posters here like yourself, 'the real world' is NOT equal to 'The Mighty Corporation'.

Superbly faulty logic, there. Macs besides eMacs force you to buy LCD screens, so you must spec competing systems with LCD screens.

Why? I'm typing this on an excellent quality, nice looking 17" flat screen CRT. In the space where it sits, there would be no, zero, zip, nada, point in having an LCD. None whatsoever. With my nice high-quality CRT screen I enjoy the benefits of being able to render whatever resolution I choose without excessive loss in quality, and far superior colour rendering to *any* LCD. If I'd bought an equivalent LCD screen I'd have a monitor that does less for my needs and costs at least $100 more. Oh, whoopee doo.

And what the hell are you talking about, Lynx and Pine? Are you on crack? Firefox, Mozilla, Opera, K-Meleon are exactly as safe as any Mac browser, and have as much functionality. On a Windows system I'd use The Bat! or Eudora or something for email, on my Linux system I use Evolution. Again, just as safe as using a Mac, all the functionality and more of their Microsoft equivalents.

I've used the OS X GUI. It's not great. I run GNOME on my system, I use 100% GNOMEified and HIG-compliant (to some extent, anyway) apps, and I think it's an extremely nice and functional desktop. On OS X, call me back when they finally decide on one widget theme, would you?

"Macs besides eMacs force you to buy LCD screens, so you must spec competing systems with LCD screens. "

Absolutely not true.

My Dual G5 shipped with a vga adaptor(included in the box), and am using my old CRT right now.

"if you want to construct your own filing system for your photos you are free to do so. iPhoto can be pointed to any folder you wish, or you can simply use the file system with preview on and max iCon size for that folder. "

I really hate iPhoto, and i don't need something to go orginizing my photos, infact thats what i don't want to happen. I just want to put them in folders in my system that i use to keap things straight.

The problem is viewing pictures. In windows, it's great, open the folder, click on a photo and it opens up windows picture veiwer with all the pictures in that folder and i can click through them as fast as i can click no matter how many pictures are in the folder. Its great and I use it all the time for looking through them, finding photos, deleting bad ones, printing them, showing pictures to people at my computer and such. Apple doesn't have any such thing. Preview is as close as it gets, but it's not even close. For one, it's more of an app, not a off shoot from explorer like the windows picture veiwer is, I really don't like things that start become more of a app and not a basic built in utility. Second you have to select all the photos, and then open up preview to get them all at once, which is anoying. Third, it's massively slow, clicking between photos is very slow, and basicly un-usuable.

This is something that should simply be built into finder, it's so simple, click on a photo in folder, it pops up a viewing window and you can click through them fast, and being apple theys should have options like being able to get sub-folders at the same time.

I went through all the third party apps i could find, but they were all poor. They were largly fullscreen slide show apps, which i see nearly no use for. They are overly complicated and trying to do to much. Some want to set up spacial folders and rank photos and do all sorts of random stuff. Oh and they still don't have a good way to view pictures at a normal size in a clean window, and they are all slow.

For an OS that is suppose to be for photo people, you would think such an simple app would be at the core of things.

That was George's reasoning, not mine.

Not sure what you are talking about. iPhoto has always been an app, not a utility. Takes a few seconds to load, but once it does, it is blazingly fast (at least on my 1ghz powerbook). Albums are the equivalent of folders. Selecting a folder, then making the photo size the largest possible so it fills the viewer screen does exactly what you are talking about. Forwarding through the photos then becomes nothing more than clicking on the slider bar - and is immediate. Again, no idea why you would say Apple doesn't have an app that can do this for you, since it is the very one you have so disdained.
Semper Fi
Elvino

I think you need to read what I wrote again. I know iPhoto is an app, thats one of the reason I don't like it. I don't like how it orginizes things. It's also slow (it does not go through photos very fast, this could be patialy do to the brokeness of my powermac, but still. I don't like how iPhoto works and it's not at all what I want. Uses the Photo viewer in windows XP, it's clear as day what I want, and iPhoto is completely differant. iPhoto is way overkill, furthermore i don't want to open iphoto and then go find my photos. I just want to click on a photo and boom i'm good to go.

All apple needs to do is simple, add a couple minor things to preview. All it needs is an option to open all the pictures in a folder when you click on one picture in the folder (instead of having to do a select all, then open in preview), and be fast, thats it. They allready have 98% of what I want there.

It's sorta like safari, what is there is ok, the problem is it's missing so many options, like a new window, new tab button in the window itself, the ability to make a new folder when saving a bookmark, the ability to open up a new window when I click on the safari icon in the dock instead of bring up I one of my currently open windows, ability to export my book marks (yeah, you can sync it with .mac, but thats not the same and should have both routes).. etc. Its fine, it's just missing things.

I basicly expect apple to keap adding to things, OSX is still pretty new, and it just takes time to add things. I expect Tiger to bring more things that just seam to be missing.

>I've used the OS X GUI. It's not great. I run GNOME on my system, I use 100% >GNOMEified and HIG-compliant (to some extent, anyway) apps, and I think >it's an extremely nice and functional desktop. On OS X, call me back when >they finally decide on one widget theme, would you?

You should really reconsider on who is on crack. Mac OS X has the most advanced GUI for a general purpose operating system. If Gnome was as good as you think Novell, RedHat, and Sun would have made a big push marketing Linux as desktop computer.

>Superbly faulty logic, there. Macs besides eMacs force you to buy LCD >screens, so you must spec competing systems with LCD screens.
>Why? I'm typing this on an excellent quality, nice looking 17" flat screen >CRT. In the space where it sits, there would be no, zero, zip, nada, point in >having an LCD. None whatsoever. With my nice high-quality CRT screen I >enjoy the benefits of being able to render whatever resolution I choose >without excessive loss in quality, and far superior colour rendering to *any* >LCD. If I'd bought an equivalent LCD screen I'd have a monitor that does >less for my needs and costs at least $100 more. Oh, whoopee doo.

My 20'' LCD screen displays Mac OS X GUI in 1680 x 1050 by default. Try do that on your screen without torturing your eyes. In addition, most of the people I know, that use PCs, have LCD screens as well as the PC in my office. Oh and by the way the LCDs that ship with Macs are very high quality (Yes unfortunately you are forced you get the best of a kind hardware from Apple...oh well).

>And what the hell are you talking about, Lynx and Pine? Are you on crack? >Firefox, Mozilla, Opera, K-Meleon are exactly as safe as any Mac browser, >and have as much functionality. On a Windows system I'd use The Bat! or >Eudora or something for email, on my Linux system I use Evolution. Again, >just as safe as using a Mac, all the functionality and more of their Microsoft >equivalents.

What I have said in the previous post is that no usable browser is safe enough in these days. That works for email clients as well. The question is when you get compromised what happens next. In a non corporate environment (that means home use) most likely people are going to use IE and Outlook or web based email client. In this scenario it safer (IMHO) to use a Mac OS than Windows 98 through Windows XP. For people who know more about computers any UNIX based system is safer than Windows OS.

Sorry, still don't see it. You don't want to search through iPhoto for your picture (which is extremely easy and fast) but you are ok searching through folders to find the pic you want to open. I've got a couple of thousand pics in my computer already - if you get near the 25,000 pic max of iPhoto, searching through individual photos is impractical. Then you claim the program is too much, but want them to add features to Preview to get you the same functionality as iPhoto. Don't see that happening. As an aside you can set the icons in your folders to show a preview of the image, set the icons for the largest size and you'll have a quick and simple way to see what is in each folder. Again not exactly what you seem to want. Would still have to say that iPhoto is exactly what you are looking for - substitute the world album for folder and it does exactly what you state - " All it needs is an option to open all the pictures in a folder when you click on one picture in the folder (instead of having to do a select all, then open in preview), and be fast, thats it." You don't have to use it, but to say the functionality isn't there is misleading.
Semper Fi
Elvino

"You should really reconsider on who is on crack. Mac OS X has the most advanced GUI for a general purpose operating system."

You should learn to distinguish subjective opinion from objective reality.

"For people who know more about computers any UNIX based system is safer than Windows OS."

Only from the standpoint of obscurity. The security model in Windows is actually very good. Unfortunately, many don't use it (run as root) - which would be just as dangerous as running as root on a UNIX-based OS.