Linked by LifesizeKenDoll on Fri 17th Dec 2004 16:17 UTC
GTK+ GTK+ 2.6, Pango 1.8, and Glib 2.6 have been released. Look for improvements coming to a Gnome or XFCE desktop near you soon.
Order by: Score:
Yay ! .. more indic stuff
by t3rmin4t0r on Fri 17th Dec 2004 16:29 UTC

The rest of the world might not care - but Languages are big issue in India.

"Even" Windows doesn't have a proper unicode renderer for Malayalam ;)

Screenshots ;-)
by MaX on Fri 17th Dec 2004 16:38 UTC

Are there screenshots from the new widgets?

RE: Screenshots ;-)
by alexl on Fri 17th Dec 2004 17:02 UTC
what the heck
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 17:04 UTC

"Even" Windows doesn't have a proper unicode renderer for Malayalam ;)
----

pango supports it. you need a active user community to test and formalise it

Performance improvements
by Chris on Fri 17th Dec 2004 17:26 UTC

From the changelog:

Performance improvements

The chunk size for incremental transfers of big selections
has been increased, reducing the number of necessary
roundtrips. GTK+ uses sync counters to speed up window
resizing. The efficiency of GtkListStore and GtkUIManager
has been improved by changing the used algorithms and data
structures. Icon themes are cached in an mmap()able cache file to reduce memory consumption and disk seek overhead. The cost of intra-library function calls has been reduced by avoiding PLT redirections.


Hooray! Now Gnome will be much faster!

RE: Performance improvements
by Lumbergh on Fri 17th Dec 2004 17:31 UTC

Woh, I missed that in the changelog. Lists have always had speed problems - scroll fast and you'll see what I mean.

gtk
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 18:21 UTC


GIMP is going to heavily use the gtkuimanager. the new nautilus threw away bonobo in favor of this API.

many improvements to major API's

libgnomeui is being refactored and slowly being removed too.

windows get wimp theme for native look and feel as well as integration of IME input method module

the best release of new gtk in a long time

Yay!
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 18:21 UTC

Finally, something to hold against the "GTK+ is so slow" whiners. I didn't measure it, but on my machine with RenderAccel, GTK+ feels much faster than QT.

Re: Yay!
by Richard S on Fri 17th Dec 2004 18:25 UTC

Is that with GTK+ 2.6 or with GTK+ 2.4? Because I don't anyone has said 2.6 is slow, yet.

gnome 2.10?
by neutron on Fri 17th Dec 2004 18:48 UTC

Does anyone knows if gtk2.6 will be integrated into gnome 2.10? That would be really cool!

Also, I've no idea what kind of new features I can expect for gtk 2.6. In other words; what kind of advantages do I have when I use gtk 2.6 on my desktop instead of gtk 2.4?

Anyone care to explain? Thnx in advance.

Re: gnome 2.10?
by neutron on Fri 17th Dec 2004 18:51 UTC

Sorry, I was too lazy to read it at first. From the release notes:

GTK+ 2.6 will be incorporated into version
2.10 of the GNOME desktop.

Gnome-terminal?
by dpi on Fri 17th Dec 2004 19:21 UTC

Woh, I missed that in the changelog. Lists have always had speed problems - scroll fast and you'll see what I mean.

I still gotta read the changelog, but does this mean gnome-terminal is finally not using ridiculous amounts of CPU time anymore when e.g. compiling?

mac OSX
by poundsmack on Fri 17th Dec 2004 19:24 UTC

is there any official plans by the gtk team to officialy suport OSX and not jsut through X on OSX

Geez.
by Chris on Fri 17th Dec 2004 20:32 UTC

Already! Slow down the mega fast release cycle boys, it's a toolkit! I hope this offers a real speed up ;) .

@neutron
by Chris on Fri 17th Dec 2004 20:34 UTC

Not integrated, but Nautilus is being modified to use some of the changes instead of bonobo.

@dpi
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 20:56 UTC


I still gotta read the changelog, but does this mean gnome-terminal is finally not using ridiculous amounts of CPU time anymore when e.g. compiling?
----

that was a different corner case and it has been resolved already. check bugzilla for details

RE: Screenshots ;-)
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 21:03 UTC

Sad all these screenshots showing GNOME style guide violations.

specific
by Anonymous on Fri 17th Dec 2004 22:08 UTC

Sad all these screenshots showing GNOME style guide violations.
-----

be specific. they are just widget snapshots

file chooser
by ahmed on Fri 17th Dec 2004 23:19 UTC

why did not file chooser use the Icon view widget ???

RE: Gnome-terminal
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 00:21 UTC

There's a terminal from some guys somewhat affiliated with the XFCE project (forget their name). They've got a gtk+ terminal (works just as good as Gnome terminal) that doesn't have all these idiotic gnome dependencies. I don't know how greedy it is with resources though.

Cross platform Gtk+
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 00:25 UTC

With QT having a bad license and Trolltech not releasing a free windows version anymore, gtk+ is increasingly becoming the native crossplatform toolkit. The latest packages from gladewin32.sourceforge.net integrate very nicely with windows....very nice windows fonts and look-n-feel. I guess Mac support is still not there for Carbon/Cocoa though.

Python + gtk = very nice crossplatform development environment.

RE: Gnome-terminal?
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 01:06 UTC

it will still be a cpu hog, hopefully future work on pango optimization will sort it out though.

@lumberg
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 01:29 UTC

With QT having a bad license and Trolltech not releasing a free windows version anymore, gtk+ is increasingly becoming the native crossplatform toolkit
-----

QT is dual licensed like many other projects include mysql, sleepycat and so on. there is a GPL/QPL license for free software projects and a proprietary license for proprietary projects. thats their business model.

opera,adobe products etc use the proprietary license

kde, scribus etc use the gpl license and QT 4 is about to be released with many improvements.

QT also has a better Mac OS X port than gtk.

so you are obviously biased.

I use gnome and gtk apps in windows even but calling QT license a bad one is obviously pointless

btw, QT gratis license for windows is still available. there is a book in the bruce perens series that comes with the these versions for free..

@Anonymous (IP: 61.95.184.---)
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 02:00 UTC

I'm biased just like everybody else is biased, but that doesn't negate the fact that gtk+ has a freer license than QT. I know that from a technical standpoint QT is better, but there are reasons why Sun, Redhat, and now even Novell are choosing Gnome as their desktops, and one of them is the QT license.

btw, QT gratis license for windows is still available. there is a book in the bruce perens series that comes with the these versions for free..

Is this the same Bruce Perens that started United Linux and chose Gnome specifically because of the license issue? So now I have to buy a book to get the free QT sdk for windows? great......

@lumberg
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 02:30 UTC

I'm biased just like everybody else is biased, but that doesn't negate the fact that gtk+ has a freer license than QT
-----

freer is a relative term. Trolltech business model in QT dual licensing. gtk doesnt have a business model. you dont need to trash any toolkit to talk about the other one's advantage. QT does not have a BAD license as you claimed. thats plainly wrong

"
Is this the same Bruce Perens that started United Linux and chose Gnome specifically because of the license issue?"

i dont care about his antics. its userlinux btw and development is extremely slow to matter ----

" So now I have to buy a book to get the free QT sdk for windows? great......
"
i didnt say that. i was pointing about one of the options. QT gratis license is still available and you can go ahead and look at trolltech website yourself/

also
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:00 UTC


Is this the same Bruce Perens that started United Linux and chose Gnome specifically because of the license issue?
----

since you are probably stating things in part for your support you should also be aware that bruce himself is a heavy KDE user and attends kde booths frequently.

it is also interesting that perens LLC announced full support for KDE and QT toolkit on userlinux.

Recent Linux Journal user awards based on popularity went to KDE as usual. you need to understand the reality that QT is commercially used very heavily with the likes of Opera and such who have no problem paying to develop commerical and proprietary software...

try coming up names for popular proprietary packages based on gtk2.x and there goes your theory of how everyone wants gratis stuff

@ Anonymous (IP: 61.95.184.-
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:01 UTC

freer is a relative term. Trolltech business model in QT dual licensing. gtk doesnt have a business model. you dont need to trash any toolkit to talk about the other one's advantage. QT does not have a BAD license as you claimed. thats plainly wrong

Nope. It's not relative. A BSD or MIT/X11 license gives you more freedom to do what you want with the code than GPL. That is fact. I didn't trash the toolkit. If you had read, I said that QT is technically superior to gtk+. I trashed the license.

i didnt say that. i was pointing about one of the options. QT gratis license is still available and you can go ahead and look at trolltech website yourself

I was at the trolltech site not to long ago and either they're putting the link to the windows sdk in some obscure place or its not there.

Cairo
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:16 UTC

Does the new GTK interact with Cairo? What benefits can be expected there?

Re: also
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:30 UTC

since you are probably stating things in part for your support you should also be aware that bruce himself is a heavy KDE user and attends kde booths frequently.


I use KDE apps too. Kdevelop for one. What's your point? Perens stated that the QT license was an issue for him.

it is also interesting that perens LLC announced full support for KDE and QT toolkit on userlinux.

Wow, I guess Ubuntu supports KDE too because I can put universal in respository list.

Recent Linux Journal user awards based on popularity went to KDE as usual.

Once again, do you have a point?

ou need to understand the reality that QT is commercially used very heavily with the likes of Opera and such who have no problem paying to develop commerical and proprietary software...

Yeah, I guess that's why Trolltech is still in business.

try coming up names for popular proprietary packages based on gtk2.x and there goes your theory of how everyone wants gratis stuff

Take a remedial reading course. I never theorized about everybody wanting gratis stuff. I said that the QT license was one of the reasons that Redhat, Sun, and now Novell are basing their desktops on Gnome.





RE: Cairo
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:41 UTC

It doesn't use Cairo at all no. That is planned for 2.8 IIRC

v RE:also
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 03:58 UTC
Re: specific
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 08:13 UTC

>> Sad all these screenshots showing GNOME style guide violations.
> be specific. they are just widget snapshots

Here you go (although I have no hope anymore that those are others in GNOME will be ever fixed):

Color selection dialog: Should be "Color name:" (label are not in book title capitalization style)
Font selection dialog: "Preview" (no colon for groupbox titles)
Check Button: check button labels should use sentence style capitalization
Radio Buttons: Radio button labels should use sentence style capitalization
In general, labels should use sentence style capitalization

RE: spank_da_monkey (IP: 64.178.138.---)
by M_abs on Sat 18th Dec 2004 11:00 UTC

"Bah what is the fascination with KDE? Do people like being visual raped everytime they boot their machine up? Do they get off on the millions of options and widgets cluttering the already ugly UI?

Pain is pleasure?"

IMHO, KDE is a lot better looking then anything GNOME has to offer, when again thats my opnion (Not that I have anything against GNOME, it just isn't me).

No pain, I use a desktop that works for me and gives me the control I want and need.

Re: RE:also @ spank_da_monkey
by DeadFish Man on Sat 18th Dec 2004 13:25 UTC

Bah what is the fascination with KDE? Do people like being visual raped everytime they boot their machine up? Do they get off on the millions of options and widgets cluttering the already ugly UI?

Pain is pleasure?


I'm sorry, but there is not a chance *in hell* of someone convince me that Gnome looks better than KDE (or more productive, for that matter)... You guys will have to take KDE off my cold dead hands.... :-)

That said, I respect your opinion though. Can we go on without this nonsense? This isn't an article about KDE.

KDE / Qt vs GNOME / GTK rubbish...
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 14:03 UTC

Interesting. Every time something comes up mentioning Qt, GTK, KDE or GNOME, some idiot has to either claim that Qt's license is evil, or that KDE is a pile of garbage / ugly / slow / evil / bloated, or that GTK is slow...

Qt is freely available under the GPL, which is fine if you're writing software covered under the GPL, or any compatible license. License your code under a BSD license if you like - that way, someone could compile your code against a non-free version of Qt and use it commercially.

Arguing that GTK allows closed source cross platform development is stupid, since virtually nobody uses GTK for closed source software. Qt is used in quite a lot of commercial software, and the licensing costs for Qt are trivial compared to the cost of actually developing a program. The single commercial app I have seen using GTK (GTK 1) is VMWare, and it most certainly does not use GTK on Windows.

KDE isn't anywhere near as bad as some people seem to think it is. I've never heard a KDE user claim that GNOME is completely useless. Most of them just don't like it that much, and prefer KDE. That's fine. They take different approaches, and work well for different kinds of people. As much as some companies (Microsoft) may want us to believe it, one size does not fit all. Just don't go around bashing a project because you don't like it.

And GTK isn't slow in most cases, and hasn't been for ages. Claiming otherwise is just dumb.

Now, can we stop all that rubbish and get back to the topic?

...
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 15:15 UTC

since virtually nobody uses GTK for closed source software.

Wrong, Nvidia, RealNetworks and Nokia does.

Re: KDE / Qt vs GNOME / GTK rubbish...
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 15:30 UTC

> License your code under a BSD license if you like - that way, someone could compile your code against a non-free version of Qt

I prefer GPL with Qt exception for this case then.

@lumberg
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 17:01 UTC

"With QT having a bad license"

how the hell is QT under GPL a bad license?. do explain. does the same apply for openoffice and many other dual licensed stuff.

"
Nope. It's not relative. A BSD or MIT/X11 license gives you more freedom to do what you want with the code than GPL."

thats what is called relative. bsd compared to gpl
"
I use KDE apps too. Kdevelop for one. What's your point? Perens stated that the QT license was an issue for him. "

how did dual licensed QT under GPl become a bad license according to you

"
I was at the trolltech site not to long ago and either they're putting the link to the windows sdk in some obscure place or its not there. "

look again then.

"Wow, I guess Ubuntu supports KDE too because I can put universal in respository list. "

no. ubuntu doesnt support kde. perens LLC does. big difference there

"
Recent Linux Journal user awards based on popularity went to KDE as usual.

Once again, do you have a point? "

point is, many people dont agree with you

"Yeah, I guess that's why Trolltech is still in business. "

exactly

"Take a remedial reading course. I never theorized about everybody wanting gratis stuff"

so what exactly is bad about QT under GPL. how about all other dual licensed stuff or is GPL as a licensed very bad in itself

RE: Cairo
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 17:20 UTC

It will happen in the foggy future of Gtk 3.0
when the API will actually break with a bunch of other things that will break the api (like full object introspection). When this actually happenes is up to when cairo becomes mature (it isn't yet), and when the gtk developers feel it is time to break the API.

The reason it will break the API is because cairo will replace GDK.

Re: Lumberg
by kubuntu ;-) on Sat 18th Dec 2004 18:17 UTC

> Wow, I guess Ubuntu supports KDE too because
> I can put universal in respository list.

Actually Canonical employees have already stated in the past that they will release a KDE Ubuntu edition. As I'm involved in this somehow I can tell you that due to popular demand this KDE Ubuntu edition is already in the works and isn't too far from being released.

Re: kubuntu ;-)
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 19:23 UTC

Actually Canonical employees have already stated in the past that they will release a KDE Ubuntu edition. As I'm involved in this somehow I can tell you that due to popular demand this KDE Ubuntu edition is already in the works and isn't too far from being released.

Well that's great news! Can't wait to see it... 8)

Re: Performance improvements
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 19:53 UTC

Hooray! Now Gnome will be much faster!

It takes a heck of a lot more than that I'm afraid. It's the toolkit and infrastructure as a whole.

Finally, something to hold against the "GTK+ is so slow" whiners. I didn't measure it, but on my machine with RenderAccel, GTK+ feels much faster than QT.

In one release? Wow. You haven't done much measuring.

Re: Cross platform Gtk+
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 20:25 UTC

With QT having a bad license and Trolltech not releasing a free windows version anymore, gtk+ is increasingly becoming the native crossplatform toolkit.

GTK is nowhere near good enough on Windows and Macs for enterprise use, and it isn't good enough on Unix/Linux either. If you think GTK is an adequate cross platform toolkit you need your eyes tested. Why do you think Eugenia and people using Fedora complain about the ridiculous amount of resources it takes? GTK also isn't a complete development toolkit and environment like Qt is, so when you put Mono and/or Java together with GTK you have something as slow as extremely thick treacle that consumes all your machine resources. I've converted some .Net applications to Mono

When you're pitching to companies etc. no amount of positive spin on GTK will make this go away.

I trashed the license.

The GPL? Err, I'm afraid not. If Qt is technically superior to GTK (not a valid comparison as Qt has more than what GTK has) then that's all that matters. That's become really apparent to a lot of people. You've not going to convince people to move away from Windows with that I'm afraid. That's the material point. Both Qt and GTK need funding to make them good enough - it's a question of how you go about doing it. Nothing is ever totally free in monetary terms, and enterprises understand that better than you.

Perens stated that the QT license was an issue for him.

For the potential users of UserLinux (i.e. enterprises) it isn't an issue for them. He may want to have a good look at the people he's pitching this to, because his reasons don't matter to them.

Yeah, I guess that's why Trolltech is still in business.

Well done Sherlock! How many companies that sprung up around Gnome are still in business for themselves?

I said that the QT license was one of the reasons that Redhat, Sun, and now Novell are basing their desktops on Gnome.

I'd love to know where any of them stated those reasons as primary factors, and I'd really love to know where Novell said that - oh wait, Novell's distributions are not based exclusively on Gnome but a combination of Gnome and KDE and Suse's are still based on KDE. Sun's desktops are a heavily modified version of Gnome to the point where it no longer really is Gnome (it's effectively a fork), and Red Hat no longer sells desktops.

david:
by AdamW on Sat 18th Dec 2004 20:39 UTC

"Why do you think Eugenia and people using Fedora complain about the ridiculous amount of resources it takes?"

I don't know, but I'm sure it's not GTK+, as Eugenia uses GNOME under other distributions, I believe.

@ David (IP: ---.freedom2surf.net)
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 20:57 UTC

It's ok to be sad David. We all know how bitter you are that Novell chose to go with Gnome.

Re: Lumbergh
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:04 UTC

>We all know how bitter you are that Novell chose to go with Gnome.

I don't know if that's true (oh wait, it's coming from Lumbergh, obviously it's not). Anyway, if they really chose to do so that would mean only one thing: they're stupid. Almost 99% of their current customers here in Europe use KDE (SUSE), and have no plans to change that.

Put Subject in Here
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:16 UTC

It's ok to be sad David. We all know how bitter you are that Novell chose to go with Gnome.

You think that if it gives you comfort. Those of us who've used the KDE desktop with the NLD and have seen how much Suse 9.2 and the SLES/Suse configuration tools depend on Qt know differently ;) . Then again, we've been told by various intelligent and knowledgeable people over a period of the last five years that everyone was going to go Gnome - we're still waiting.......

@david
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:23 UTC

<<Sun's desktops are a heavily modified version of Gnome to the point where it no longer really is Gnome (it's effectively a fork),>>

And how is it a fork exactly? Throwing in a new theme and a "Launch" applet counts as a fork now?

<<and Red Hat no longer sells desktops.>>

First hit, googling for "red hat desktop"

http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/desktop/

The horrible UI of KDE is obviously effecting your congnitive skills. There is still time to repent and come back to the light. There is no judgement "here", its beautiful...

@Anonymous (IP: ---.fastres.net)
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:45 UTC

I don't know if that's true (oh wait, it's coming from Lumbergh, obviously it's not). Anyway, if they really chose to do so that would mean only one thing: they're stupid. Almost 99% of their current customers here in Europe use KDE (SUSE), and have no plans to change that.

Baha, even the great QT/KDE defender David@freedomtosurf.net reluctantly acknowledges that Novell's desktop development is going Gnome. Yeah, I'm sure you know that 99% of Suse users in Europe use KDE (rolls eyes).

Hehe, we know how much it irked you that Suse, a "european" distro, was bought by an American company.

David's fear of GNOME
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:45 UTC

David, you have to accept reality. GNOME will continue to be embraced by the major players.

<<Those of us who've used the KDE desktop with the NLD and have seen how much Suse 9.2 and the SLES/Suse configuration tools depend on Qt know differently >>

Yes, YAST2 the configuration tool. This is the only technology that the Novell people have to keep, everything else is legacy.

RedHat - GNOME
Sun - GNOME
Novell - transition to GNOME

Ah but what about the commerical KDE-centric distros?

Mandrake - Had to file for bankruptcy protection! ;)
Linspire - Still hasent shown a profit.
Xandros - Insignifcant

...
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:50 UTC

After comparing both GNOME and KDE on my FC3 desktop I can only release 2 things.

1 .- KDE is to overhyped, ain't as good a KDE trolls say, it is messy and bloated.

2.- GNOME is cleaner, GTK applications are more elegant and can do what I need.

3.- The speed is the same.

4.- KDE takes to much time to start.

Just my opinion.


@spank da money
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 21:55 UTC


"And how is it a fork exactly? Throwing in a new theme and a "Launch" applet counts as a fork now? "

you dont know the amount of differences then. there is a reason why Sun rebranded the whole thing as "java" desktop. its a fork

"David, you have to accept reality. GNOME will continue to be embraced by the major players. "

if we were choosing software by the amount of enterprise players and popularity we would be running Windows

I dont care about whether redhat, sun or novell chooses gnome or kde. I decide what to choose depending on my tastes.

...
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:01 UTC

After comparing both GNOME and KDE on my FC3 desktop I can only release 2 things.

I mean 4 =D.

RE: @spank da money
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:03 UTC

<<you dont know the amount of differences then.>>

Well, then be so kind as to explain them to me.

<<Sun rebranded the whole thing as "java" desktop. its a fork>>

Um no, Sun is just a brand whore. They are trying to push Java onto the desktop (as evident by the focus of Java 1.5 / Java 1.6 "Mustang") and by calling their product "Java Desktop System" they can reinforce this illusion.

<<
if we were choosing software by the amount of enterprise players and popularity we would be running Windows>>

But they are competing against MS. They need the BEST tools at their disposal, hence GNOME.

<<
I dont care about whether redhat, sun or novell chooses gnome or kde. I decide what to choose depending on my tastes.>>

This is also true for myself. Gnome rules!

RE:...
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:09 UTC

You sir have excellent taste! I too find myself occasionally trying the lastest KDE release and am often in awe of the abuse the KDE userbase has inflicted on them.

Very sad.

RE:me
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:13 UTC

*them = themselves

Must...slow...down

Wrong Reply - Read Before Posting
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:18 UTC

Baha, even the great QT/KDE defender David@freedomtosurf.net reluctantly acknowledges that Novell's desktop development is going Gnome.

I didn't write that - that's why you replied to anonymous presumably.

@David
by Lumbergh on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:33 UTC

You're hilarious. You've seen the NLD screenshots. You've acknowledged that Novell is going Gnome. You've said stuff like Ximian has shoved their way into key decision making positions. Now you've sunk to calling JDS a "fork" of Gnome. The battle for the linux corporate desktop is already over and you just can't accept it.

@ Anonymous Proxy (IP: 61.95.184.---)
by dpi on Sat 18th Dec 2004 22:55 UTC

that was a different corner case and it has been resolved already. check bugzilla for details

It is? Since when? At least its not in version 2.8. Which bugzilla # are you referring to, or can you help me with a keyword?

I tried XFce4's terminal, but in GNOME, when starting up 'xfterm4' it just starts GNOME-Terminal. It uses that because of the default terminal setting. I'm currently using Aterm and while its not that bad (quite fast) it doesn't support tabs / multiple consoles in 1 terminal application. Screen solves this, but its quite a burder. Multi-Aterm ain't very stable here. When switching to a different tab, then switching back, it crashes. Konsole or Eterm don't cut it for other reasons... i got what i paid for though ;^)

how the hell is QT under GPL a bad license?. do explain. does the same apply for openoffice and many other dual licensed stuff.

Simple: Because GTK is LGPL (just like about any GNOME-related library i'm aware of), both commercial ISVs as well as non-GPL freaks are able to link their proprietary software to it, without a fee. This means the DE is more open to all of the worlds, instead of only GPL. And, while you might not care, a lot of people (with more power/money/interest) do care. Its basically not fixable in QT, because Trolltech earns a lot of money through their dual-licensing scheme. The same holds water with Postgres and Myohmy although quality arguments might differ than the ones regarding QT vs GTK.

Hilarious to see another DE flamewar here btw.

My Incredible 'Fear' of Gnome
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 23:06 UTC

David, you have to accept reality. GNOME will continue to be embraced by the major players.

So in a business world dominated by Windows at close to 100% usage these are major players on the desktop now? Wow, it's amazing how perception can put fog over your eyes. This is also the same thing many people have said for about five years. As I said - I'm still waiting.

Yes, YAST2 the configuration tool. This is the only technology that the Novell people have to keep, everything else is legacy.

Wow. I haven't heard Suse say that, and I haven't seen it in any of their products either.

Novell - transition to GNOME

Again, haven't seen it for reasons I've described. I'd love to know how their NLD rollout is going internally.

But they are competing against MS. They need the BEST tools at their disposal, hence GNOME.

They picked wrongly then, or they didn't think about what would be required for Gnome's future when they chose it. A good desktop stems from development because it is so difficult to get right. Gnome from a development perspective is a total and utter mess, difficult to maintain and difficult to develop for. You could use Mono or Java (I have), but that's only if you want your GTK/Gnome applications to really drop off the face of the Earth. Sun need to integrate Java fully with Gnome and make it perform acceptably to turn this Java Desktop into something enterprise grade. They're so far away from doing that it's incredible, but Sun have had a habit of picking crap technology for their desktops. Microsoft are different - they may have crap technology underneath, but they know exactly what is required and they have the massive resources to do something about it. Open source projects don't have those resources.

Everything about Gnome is the UI, which you can't keep pitching exclusively to people. Well yer, they've put some decent effort into it, but again - with Gnome it's top show. You need good technology to make something palatable for companies who would seriously look at changing their desktops. How usable do you think its going to be when a company runs two full-size Mono applications alongside each other and the whole system grinds to a hault? That's the situation at the moment, and the UI usability drive doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I know - I've test ported a couple of (fairly sizeable) .Net applications to Mono from .Net out of interest and it was painful to port and to use. I would never get away with unleashing that on a user. I know these are difficult concepts for those of you who simply assume that Gnome and GTK will take the corporate world by storm at some point(!), but there it is.

I'm afraid it isn't fear - although many of you wish it was. As someone who uses desktops, and writes for them, in a fairly sizeable enterprise I can see what is required. If there's any fear, it's the fear that free and open source software hasn't even got a glimmer of hope at the desktop end. It's all driven by bollocks, basically.

Talking about Gnome, KDE and other desktops as open source projects is fine and dandy - no problems. However, when you get some people mouthing off about making this that and the other a corporate desktop, you just have to put the brakes on a bit and remind them that the technology that they're pushing isn't up to snuff nor is it corporate in any sense of the word.

Fun
by David on Sat 18th Dec 2004 23:24 UTC

Errr, I still didn't write that comment. My response was at the top of the page.

You're hilarious. You've seen the NLD screenshots.

Yes - I've seen the NLD screenshots with a KDE desktop, and I haven't just seen the screenshots - I've got an installed copy of the NLD ;) . I'm not particularly interested in screenshots some people put out - I'm interested in the product itself. There's a handy hint.

You've acknowledged that Novell is going Gnome. You've said stuff like Ximian has shoved their way into key decision making positions.

I've acknowledged no such thing, and I've given ample evidence as to why it isn't happening based on what Novell and Suse are actually selling. I've talked about how any Ximian oriented decision-making would be disastrous for Novell. Why? Because the fact is that the only Linux-oriented activity at Novell that makes any money is happening inside Suse. Novell have a habit of courting failure though. I can sense desperation pretty well.

Now you've sunk to calling JDS a "fork" of Gnome.

Which it is. Sun aren't going to contribute to a wider Java infrastructure for Gnome, that much is clear, and yet they're going to put Java on their desktop somehow.

The battle for the linux corporate desktop is already over and you just can't accept it.

Oh, is this the Linux Corporate Desktop we've been hearing about for the last five years? There's no such thing I'm afraid - it's an illusion. There comes a time when something has been promised for so long you just have to accept that it's been kept up by hot air and bollocks. If you'd read any of my comments you should have at the very least picked that up. Alas....

reality
by Anonymous on Sat 18th Dec 2004 23:37 UTC

@dpi

"
It is? Since when? At least its not in version 2.8. Which bugzilla # are you referring to, or can you help me with a keyword? "

gnome 2.9. should be fixed in the next release. i am sorry. i dont have the patience to search bugzilla..


"
So in a business world dominated by Windows at close to 100% usage these are major players on the desktop now?"

when is windows close to 100%. come back to reality

"
Oh, is this the Linux Corporate Desktop we've been hearing about for the last five years? There's no such thing I'm afraid - it's an illusion."

serious investments only started last year. reality is better than your illusion anyway

@David
by spank_da_monkey on Sat 18th Dec 2004 23:47 UTC

<<So in a business world dominated by Windows at close to 100% usage these are major players on the desktop now?>>

Ah so sad that you have to nitpick since you can't prove your point. Alright I'll try to be even more verbose.

"Major players" refer to the major commerical entities in the Linux market.


<<Wow. I haven't heard Suse say that>>

Why would they? They are no longer independent.

<<and I haven't seen it in any of their products either.>>

You have such unrealistic demands. Novell is still in transition. Right now their focused on uniting Linux and Netware with OES (Feb.2005), then when more resources are avaliable, they'll work on their desktop offering.

Just take a look at all the projects Novell is already funding:

-beagle/dashboard
-ifolder
-f-spot
-sketic, new GUI designer to replace Glade

*cough* Gnome-centric!

Be sure to see even more activity from them in the future.

....

Hey wait a minute, I thought you said that:

<QUOTE>
GTK is nowhere near good enough on Windows and Macs for enterprise use, and it isn't good enough on Unix/Linux either.
</QUOTE>

All those projects are written in GTK#. Novell seems confident that GTK+ is up to the job.

<<They picked wrongly then, or they didn't think about what would be required for Gnome's future when they chose it.>>

Really? Since QT's license dilemma is somewhat solved now, why are these companies staying with Gnome?

<<You could use Mono or Java (I have), but that's only if you want your GTK/Gnome applications to really drop off the face of the Earth.>>

Yes I do use gtk#/java-gnome/pygtk and they are indeed wonderful. The Gnome developers are very aware of the need for a highlevel language to replace 'c', you know that Gnome3 will include a rewrite of the Gnome-core?

What do you mean by "drop off the face of the Earth."?


<<Everything about Gnome is the UI, which you can't keep pitching exclusively to people. >>

I can't pitch ease of use, simplicity, elegance, etc?


<<You need good technology to make something palatable for companies who would seriously look at changing their desktops.>>

Technology has always been GNOME's weakpoint. Inversely, KDE's weakness has been the UI.

Gnome is learning. Gnome3 will be the culmination of what they have learned.

Read the KDE-mailinglists, they still won't make simplifications because it supposdly takes away from the user's freedom. They have NOT learned.

<<How usable do you think its going to be when a company runs two full-size Mono applications alongside each other and the whole system grinds to a hault?>>

Im sorry but Mono and Gnome have no direct relationshop. If the Gnome-devs decide to adopt Mono in the future, you can bitch away, but until then...

<< As someone who uses desktops, and writes for them, in a fairly sizeable enterprise I can see what is required.>>

Um buddy, for all I know you could be somesort of a shemale living in your parents basement. I don't care who you claim to be.

@ Anonymous Proxy (IP: 61.95.184.---)
by dpi on Sun 19th Dec 2004 01:42 UTC

Ah, selective quoting... *claps*.

when is windows close to 100%. come back to reality


I meant desktops, and its theoretically close to that at both corporate as well as home-user levels. At least i call 90% or 95% close to 100%, don't know about you...

serious investments only started last year. reality is better than your illusion anyway

How do you define 'serious' and where are your sources?

PS: Don't you feel a bit ashamed drawing all kind of controversy behind that proxy of yours? Show yourself!

Desktop technologies
by Lumbergh on Sun 19th Dec 2004 04:06 UTC

So I think everybody will admit that KDE has always been in the lead technology wise, but a turning point has arrived. Namely, D-Bus and HAL(not really gnome technologies, but gnome people have worked on them). Gnome 2.8 has it and the latest KDE doesn't. The KDE developers have been very gracious in deciding that they will be using D-Bus in a future version of KDE (4?) when DCOP has done a great job.

I've never understood why the C++ gtk+/Gnome bindings never have gotten bigger play. It's absolutely ridiculous to write desktop apps in straight C today and it was ridiculous 4 years ago.

Sun's schizophrenia is classic too. They use Gnome as their desktop, but have never assigned 2 developers to a project to write some cool app using Java and the gtk+/Gnome bindings. This is probably partly because they've been shown up by SWT and also because they don't want to admit that Swing has been a failure for anybody that wants a nice integrated-looking app. Plus, Sun seems to think that the Java license is good enough for Gnome now, but the Gnome people think differently. Isn't there some communications going on?

It looks like Python will officially make it into Gnome fairly soon. Mono is a different story. Mono is good stuff, but most likely it will never make it into Gnome. Microsoft probably won't ever give the legal reassurances that the Gnome people need to put it in.

Re: Desktop technologies
by Torsten Rahn on Sun 19th Dec 2004 05:38 UTC

> So I think everybody will admit that KDE has always
> been in the lead technology wise, but a turning
> point has arrived

Not at all. D-Bus is widely based on DCOP and still it's rather in its infancy in terms of adoption as well as implementation. DCOP on the other hand is "proven technology" as stated in one of IBMs most recent Redbooks and has been extensively used in KDE. Nevertheless D-Bus is KDE's as well as Gnome's future common IPC-mechanism. Both projects are working on it at freedesktop.org and both projects are already exploring it in their current active development. It should also be mentioned that in the Qt4-Snapshots it has been used extensively since months already.
The same applies for HAL in a similar manner.

If you really want to know what e.g. IBM thinks about KDE and Gnome technology-wise you might want to have a look at their most recent Redbook

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg246380.html

Especially the chapters about "Migration best practices" and "Desktop automation and scripting" might serve as a nice inspiration: they mostly cover KDE technologies and even dub some aspects of Gnome technology as "not fool-proof".

Regarding the topic "Novell and KDE": Novell supports KDE as well as Gnome and their desktop strategy is that they support both equally now and in the future. No need to discuss about that. While the current NLD offers the choice between KDE and Gnome the most current home user offering SUSE Linux Professional 9.2 defaults to KDE. And judging from the most recent state of 9.3 this isn't likely going to change anytime soon.

Regards,
Torsten Rahn

Off on a Tangent
by David on Sun 19th Dec 2004 12:24 UTC

when is windows close to 100%. come back to reality

I suggest you find yourself a job then. I said that the business world was close to 100% Windows in terms of usage, and looking around I'm not wrong.

"Major players" refer to the major commerical entities in the Linux market.

Which is about the size of a pea. The people buying Linux desktops on a large scale (i.e. where the money is) are individuals, small businesses who know about Linux and people dipping their toes into something that isn't Windows. The Linux desktop leaders by various benchmarks are Mandrake and Suse.

Please! Get the corporate bollocks out of your head - it doesn't exist.

Why would they? They are no longer independent.

Suse is where the money is ;) .

-beagle/dashboard
-ifolder
-f-spot
-sketic, new GUI designer to replace Glade

*cough* Gnome-centric!

Be sure to see even more activity from them in the future.


And yet none of it is anywhere near working. Most of it is based on Mono, which incidentally, doesn't work either. I thought their IDE was going to be MonoDevelop? Anyway.

All those projects are written in GTK#. Novell seems confident that GTK+ is up to the job.

Novell don't use GTK#. Individuals within the old Ximian division are using GTK# and Mono - the rest of Novell don't, and probably have no idea about it. There are plenty of companies, like Novell and Sun, who've fallen flat because the technology they use isn't good enough.

Yes I do use gtk#/java-gnome/pygtk and they are indeed wonderful. The Gnome developers are very aware of the need for a highlevel language to replace 'c', you know that Gnome3 will include a rewrite of the Gnome-core?

Another re-write?!

Rather than creating your own custom small apps, try taking a sizeable corporate type system (financial etc.) on a large scale which does a lot of validation checking, connects to middleware and databases etc. The situation changes radically.

Im sorry but Mono and Gnome have no direct relationshop. If the Gnome-devs decide to adopt Mono in the future, you can bitch away, but until then...

Don't care - I'm looking at the end solution. Enterprise customers - remember? Some people at Novell and other places are pitching this, oblivious to the fact that it doesn't actually work. Gnome's core development technology - well.....

Um buddy, for all I know you could be somesort of a shemale living in your parents basement. I don't care who you claim to be.

Don't care, but I know for a fact that those around here that are mouthing off about Linux desktops have absolutely no clue as to what is required in this context. Anyway, you reply in that manner because you know it to be true deep down.

Talking about open source projects is fine. Talking about an enterprise/corporate focused end solution is quite another. That's what people don't get. This isn't religion I'm afraid, but reality. Until people, and the companies involved with desktop Linux, get into it absolutely nothing is going to happen.

@ David
by Anonymous on Sun 19th Dec 2004 21:52 UTC

Suse is where the money is ;) .

Ximian was a newer, though growing corporation before they got build. They were financially doing very well. If you don't take my word on it, then consider 1) Why Novell paid so much for them 2) Do a search on the statistics. I did both at the time they got bought by Novell. After they got bought by Novell, Ximian was not a corporation anymore so this remark doesn't apply to that.

Besides that, this is a pretty stupid argument anyway. The fact something is very profitable doesn't say anything about quality. According to that reasoning, Windows and Office are of good quality because they're very profitable...