Linked by Jeremy Wells on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:05 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu For over six years I have been hunting for a Linux distro that would allow me to replace my Windows installation. I've tried many versions of RedHat and Mandrake, and more recently, Gnoppix, Kanotix, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Knoppix. In my evaluations, I would start with high hopes that the latest and greatest distro would install smoothly, support my hardware, and create a genuinely usable system, but none of them really worked--until now. I recently came across the first distro that satisfied all my requirements: Ubuntu.
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A lot can change in six years....
by Gent on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:21 UTC

Linux development is pretty fast paced, a lot can change in six years. You might find a lot of the other distros you tried earlier are now at the same position.

On the other hand, I love ubuntu myself and install it for all my friends who are new to Linux aswell as on several of my machines here. Great distro.

Well its...
by poofyhairguy on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:22 UTC

A little late to be having a review of Warty (the Hoary preview release will be in March), but I am still using it so it must be good enough. ;)

Ubuntu has a lot of wind in its sails lately. Hopefully Hoary will live up to high expectations.

I am getting annoyed
by Mario Giammarco on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:35 UTC

All these new distro are the same.
I have tried ubuntu is just a polished debian. It does not support laptops. Reading this review it seems that ubuntu does a miracle on thinkpad notebook. Then I discover that acpi not work apm not work, ipv6 not work etc. etc.

So what? On my thinkpad r50p I have installed debian. Compiled kernel2.6.10+ac10+swsusp2 and now I have ACPI FULLY WORKING (yes fn+f4 suspends, fn+f12 hibernate, fn+f3 blanks screen).

Without ubuntu! Only with debian!!!

Stop hyping! I am annoyed.

SMP
by Corey on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:41 UTC

I installed it on my dual PIII system last nite. It looks good but doesn't recognize both CPUs.

RE: SMP
by Jon on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:43 UTC

simply use its graphical package installer, subscribe to a few channels, and download the -SMP kernel and then it will.

Will stay with other distro
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 08:54 UTC

This review did not convince me to switch from Mandrake which seems as polished, works better on laptops and provides a good KDE experience.
It's true that I don't care much about a 100% free distro. To be able to truely replace Windows, a linux distro has to provide Java, Flash, DVD player, etc.

RE: I am getting annoyed
by Cosmo on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:09 UTC

> I have tried ubuntu is just a polished debian. It does not support laptops. Reading this
> review it seems that ubuntu does a miracle on thinkpad notebook. Then I discover that acpi
> not work apm not work, ipv6 not work etc. etc.

On a Thinkpad? That's funny, 'cause on mine (R51) APM works absolutely flawlessly. If you had taken the time and actually browse the Ubuntu wiki for 2 minutes you would have gotten it to work in no time as well.

Stop bashing without seriously trying. I am annoyed.

PS: APM is probably what you want to use on the R50 since ACPI consumes a lot more battery in standby.

Re: Will stay with other distro
by Finalzone on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:18 UTC

It's true that I don't care much about a 100% free distro. To be able to truely replace Windows, a linux distro has to provide Java, Flash, DVD player, etc

Windows XP does not include neither on the system as default. You need to install them first from either online or a separate CD provided by hardware manufacturer(DVD for example). That is the baddest assumption from many people.

Good article
by Morgan on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:20 UTC

This article pretty much mirrored my experience with Ubuntu, with the exception that I installed it on a Duron 1GHz-based desktop system. I'm actually back in Slackware for the time being because the Duron motherboard died, and Slack is faster than Ubuntu on the old PII I'm borrowing from a friend. I'm hoping I'll be able to afford to build a new system by the time Hoary is officially released; I still love Slackware, but now that I've gotten used to Ubuntu and apt-get I can't wait to get back in there.

RE: RE: I am getting annoyed
by Mario Giammarco on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:21 UTC


> On a Thinkpad? That's funny, 'cause on mine (R51) APM >works absolutely flawlessly. If you had taken the time >and actually browse the Ubuntu wiki for 2 minutes you >would have gotten it to work in no time as well.

My dear ubuntu defender I was talking about his review! He has found that apm is not working on his laptop with ubuntu not me!

I am pretty sure that on ubuntu you can repair apm because ubuntu is more or less debian. But what advantage I have to use ubuntu if I have to do the same operations to support apm as I do in debian?

PS: APM is probably what you want to use on the R50 since ACPI consumes a lot more battery in standby.

Thanks but my r50p does not have the acpi bug so battery consumption is accettable. With acpi I can put cpu in c3 state and consume very little when I am using it. Unfortunately there are shitty radeon drivers... but this is another story.

network trouble
by Julian on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:46 UTC

I recently upgraded from Ubuntu Warty to Hoary, but unfortunately I kept the old versions of all initscripts (I assumed the apt-get defaults were sane and the changes were trivial).
Now my network interfaces fail to start on boot, and i have to bring them up manually each time i boot.
Apart from that I'm totally happy with Ubuntu, and I almost totally abandoned my BeOS and Gentoo installations, which I use mainly for DJing now (my Gentoo is tailored towards low latency).

Good but...
by Zorro on Tue 8th Feb 2005 09:52 UTC

After so many great reviews and because I am a Gnome fan I decided to install Ubuntu on my Dell Inspiron 3800 laptop. So, deleted my Slackware 10 and prepare it for a fresh install. This time Ubuntu. I have to say that installing Ubuntu is not difficult at all, Slack though goes faster I think. When I boot up , no sound , I have checked , no sound devices,Ooops, Slack was picking the sound card on the fly. No ACPI, ooops , I just chose bare.acpi in slack and it works. So , tried to install some things from gnome files , boing , no gcc , hmmm. Go to the site , ahaaaa , I have to check the repositories.So , good , I connect , not all mirrors work , but at least I found gcc , some other packages where nowhere to be found , probably a bad settings on my side. Shortly, I decided Slack will go back.
And one more thing , on Slack Gnome is faster than on Ubuntu , at least for me. I don't know the reasons and frankly I don't care.I will use Slack for time being. Or maybe I'm not ready for a change.Or maybe I don't want to change.Don't know.
All these things happened 2 months ago,Ubuntu was on my laptop for about one month,just for me to get used with it. Is a no go for me but I have to admit that is the perfect distro for beginners if somebody configures the system good.I like to tinker a lot my machine and Slack offers me exactly what I need.

Ubuntu
by dex on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:06 UTC

Ubuntu is perfect for those of us experienced linux users that got sick of dicking around with gentoo or slackware and just want something that works.

To those that have troubles. It's a linux thing. Linux is still years away from working on all the hardware, out of the box, if ever.

I like Ubuntu too
by Kaya on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:14 UTC

I really like Ubuntu for the desktop, it definitively is the first dirrto that conviced me that Linux is ready for the desktop. I have the usual problem with KDE, its too bloated and far from bein simplistic (I love Mac OS X). Gnome offers a very straight environment and seems to be more leightweight than KDE. I also have to agree that Ubuntu looks far more polished and professional than many other distros.

For servers I still prefer debian, but this is no contradiction, because Ubuntu was specifically developed for the desktop.

The only downside is that I am not satisified with the performance, resizing windows seems a bit sluggy and the login is slow, too. Although the machine (Dual P3-8666 with Radeon 8500) should be fast enough to handle the GUI. But maybe it's only the drivers (I didn't succeed in installing the proprietary drivers provided by ATI, but they seem only to accelerate 3D anyway).

Kaya

Assumption....
by Archangel on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:17 UTC

I'd disagree with a few of the statements in the article:
First, I was under the impression that the Linux kernel's ACPI implementation wasn't buggy - but most laptops use a lot of weird-ass extensions and their implementations are often buggy.

APM is okay, but has it's issues - which is why ACPI was created. Frankly I don't see the big deal - my laptop does everything except suspend-to-RAM (hibernating works, and without a FAT partition) using ACPI - which is pretty much what he'd found.

And saying the KDE project's design goal is clearly to look like Windows is ludicrous. I'm sure that's the last thing on their mind.
With the number of times he mentioned Macintoshes, it sounds like he'd be better off buying one rather than trying to find another interface that he thinks mimics it.

*sigh* more GNOME/KDE silliness
by salmacis on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:22 UTC

rather than the cluttered, sickeningly sweet, drippy, transparent eye Kandy of KDE.

Although the Gnome developers may not admit it, the Mac user interface appears to be their design goal while KDE's design goal is clearly to duplicate the Windows UI. To most people, the consensus would be that the Mac is the clear winner in usability and appearance.

If you didn't want the comments to degenerate into yet another GNOME/KDE flamewar, why did you include these two statements? A simple "I prefer GNOME so I wanted to use a GNOME-based distribution" would have been better.

I've yet to hear a compelling reason to install Ubuntu, and given your problems with it I'm surprised your review was so positive. These days, no modern distribtion from one of the bigger players should cause too many problems, even on an old laptop.

Horses for courses
by nick on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:27 UTC

I had very pleasant experiences with Ubuntu when my Aunt wanted me to build a new system for her and I told her it was now against my religion to install Windows on any machine ever again ;) It installed perfectly and detected all the hardware except for the HP PSC 1210 which worked after some tweaking. As a die hard Debian man myself, I feel the distro takes nothing away from Deb which is, as already mentioned, a server distro. But it's like I tell all these distro bashers - horses for courses people. Just because you'd never use something yourself or are annoyed at its shortcomings, it may be perfectly suited to someone else. Ubuntu, really hits home with it's appearance, and the reviewer (I think) was referring to its mac-esque appearance out of reverance for OSX which (come on people) really does look totally schmick compared to everything else. So give it a whirl, and if you don't like it, use something else and keep your mouth shut.

v Repeat with me...
by Jesus Climent on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:32 UTC
screenshots?
by prayforwind on Tue 8th Feb 2005 10:59 UTC

I'd kind of like to see what it looks like, especially since the Gnome interface has been tweaked

RE: screenshots?
by Julian on Tue 8th Feb 2005 11:18 UTC

http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=156&slide=1

OSDir's got a hell of a lot of screenshots.

The magic bus
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 11:35 UTC

Hey, everyone, let's all hop on the Cannabus. Really though, it's Cannabis, and could you point out which distro features it so prominantly?

Re: The magic bus
by Devon on Tue 8th Feb 2005 11:43 UTC

"...and could you point out which distro features it so prominantly?"

Berry Linux

RE:RE: The Magic Bus
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 11:54 UTC

I can't seem to find any pictures of cannabis on their website, just, well, berries. Perhaps they changed it.

PR/spam
by Omega on Tue 8th Feb 2005 12:26 UTC

My "perfect" Linux distribution would be completely open source, professional in appearance, have good laptop support, and be simple and clean


His requirements can not meet his objectives (laptop support vs no proprietary software in particular). So his review is flawed from the very first line.

Just another PR/spam article about Ubuntu....getting boring.... *yawns*

RE: The magic bus
by Kaj on Tue 8th Feb 2005 12:29 UTC

"Hey, everyone, let's all hop on the Cannabus. Really though, it's Cannabis, and could you point out which distro features it so prominantly?"

Dynebolic

NO wifi card detection.
by d on Tue 8th Feb 2005 12:55 UTC

Wifi card didn't work out of the box on my ubuntu install. Worked great with knoppix though, for some reason.

Warty
by Artem on Tue 8th Feb 2005 13:18 UTC

All I can say about Ubuntu is that it looks nice. I wouldn't however call it easy to use or just working. The non-default install can be frightening for a newbie (and with the default you have to wipe your entire HD). It didn't recognize my Windows partitions, so I had to add them manually. It didn't have a driver for my Lucent winmodem; I compiled the driver from source, but couldn't get it to work properly (it wouldn't load automatically, had to make "sudo ./autoload" in the src directory before connecting). Wvdial/pppd permissions weren't setup for non-root dialing, had to do it manually. Totem doesn't play DVD out of the box... So Ubuntu leaves much to be desired in the ease-of-use department. A second, non-US .iso with all necessary codecs, plugins, and drivers hosted somewhere in Europe would be one step in the right direction.

Stop the PR
by cmit on Tue 8th Feb 2005 13:46 UTC

Come on guys. Stop all this PR -the sun does not shine out of Ubuntu's backside. This sort of in your face PR is starting to look a lot like the Linspire PR from last year when they had to post a review of it on a daily basis and boy was that annoying

it is ok
by raver31 on Tue 8th Feb 2005 13:50 UTC

but there are other "nicer" variations, like SimplyMepis....
why are you all not giving the thumbs up to this distro ?
I found it to be amazing, and more than a match for Ubuntu

v ubuntu sux
by scum on Tue 8th Feb 2005 13:56 UTC
couple of responses
by Jeff Waugh on Tue 8th Feb 2005 13:59 UTC

Kaya: Ubuntu was not designed specifically for desktop use, it just happens to be a really kickarse desktop. :-) It is also a fully supported server distribution too.

cmit: Hard to control the amount of content and praise our user community manages to create. :-) We are not doing any active, professional media PR at all.

Crabs in a bucket
by A+ Tech on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:01 UTC

I love linux and will continue to use it and support it, but with all the distro-whoring and continuous wrangling,reminds me of crabs in a bucket.Not good at all for tux.

Peace.

RE: ubuntu sux
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:13 UTC

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but...

Ubuntu may not be the fastest distro, but it has saved me a lot of time in configuration. I used to use gentoo and it was snappy, when it wasn't compiling something. And ubuntu plays mp3s just fine. I no longer have any desire to try a bunch of distros now that I have found ubuntu, and that says something for me.

disenchanted
by int argc on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:15 UTC

I was very excited about Ubuntu, but when I finally got a chance to try it, I had a lot of problems. I was trying to set up a box that I use for a file server, as well as for remote access via X for programming and the like. I had A LOT of problems.

1) The unit has 3 ethernet cards; however, the networking completely failed unless I disabled two of them. This three-NIC setup had been working flawlessly for 2 years under RH8.0

2) There are 3 hard drives in the machine. When it boots, it frequently fails to mount partitions from _at_least_ one of them automatically. This despite the fact that they are all in fstab and flagged for mount at system boot

3) For some reason, it boots graphically at runlevel 2. Don't these guys understand the purpose of the runlevels?

4) The samba package is completely broken. I had to edit the symlinks by hand in order to get samba running. I can handle that, but I tend to expect a little more from an apt-based system.

5) Many key components of Gnome, including serviceconf, are missing, which made me waste a lot of time trying to do (4) the easy way before giving up and using the command line.

I haven't had time yet, but I'll probably be wiping the drive and replacing Ubuntu with Fedora Core 3 the next weekend I have free.

I'm usually annoyed with people ranting about the distro, but there are some serious problems with Ubuntu that surprised me when I tried to use it, and I thought that other people might benefit from knowing.

That said, I do have high hopes for Hoary Hedgehog. I like the look & feel of Ubuntu, and if they can fix the stability problems it will be a very nice OS indeed.

You guys are being too tough
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:22 UTC

I think some of you guys are being too tough on this distro, it's only its first release, I cant remember a distro that wasnt a little buggy on its first release.

I was also wondering how many apps are in the repository, right now I use Mepis, is it worth the switch?

Backports?
by Devilotx on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:26 UTC

If its based upon Debian Unstable... why in the blue hell would you get a backport? and what would would it be a backport of? something from Debian Experamental?

I thought backports were for people needing more current stuff on in debian Stable?

maybe I'm wrong...

RE: You guys are being too tough
by Mario Giammarco on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:40 UTC

RANT MODE ON
Yes I am very annoyed: why on earth I should be patient when they came out with a debian testing a little modified and polished and nothing more? And people hype it as the best thing? I think seriously I will write a piece for osnews titled "value added distributions" to explain that:

-I like forks
-but a fork should add more value (real value)
-you cannot call a distribution "a desktop distribution" just because it includes gnome
-you cannot call a distribution "a powerful server distribution" just because it includes apache

RANT MODE OFF

Re: Backports?
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 14:57 UTC

Warty based on a snapshot of Debian unstable made in October '04 afaik, if you want newer packages you either have to run Hoary (which will be their next release) or use the backports.

Glad I run Ubuntu on an iBook instead
by Jocknerd on Tue 8th Feb 2005 15:17 UTC

I didn't have any problems with the install. Sound worked. The keys mapped correctly. Glad to see that Linux on PPC works better than Linux on x86!

RE: disenchanted by int argc
by jofas on Tue 8th Feb 2005 15:31 UTC

Not very smart to test high-level functions and non-standard or complicated hardware config for a first shot at a distro. What do you expect?

- 3 hard drives and 3 NICs? You're just begging for trouble.
- runlevels? Can't comment.
- Samba worked out-of-box for me and for most people, in fact. I don't know what you're doing wrong, but Samba does not seem to be a huge issue on the ubuntu forums, either.
- serviceconf is a RedHat tool, not a Gnome component!

Everyone here is forgetting that Ubuntu isn't even aimed at us! It's designed for use in places that lack funding for commercial OSes, i.e. third world. You're all expecting WAY too much from it.

@jofas RE: disenchanted by int arc
by SubAtomic Toad on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:05 UTC

3 hard drives and 3 NICs? You're just begging for trouble.

Works fine in Windows, BSD, and most linux distros. This is just a silly comment.

Tried Ubuntu
by TaterSalad on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:06 UTC

I must be one of the very few who didn't care for Ubuntu all that much. I had it installed on my system for 2 weeks or so, but went back to my other distro. Maybe it was my ignorance on not knowing how to use the apt commands properly, or when I tried to compile applications and found missing libraries, but something just didn't sit right with me. Using apt-cache showed lots of packages, but they all seemed older. Perhaps my apt conf file didn't have the proper entries.

If you don't like it, don't use it
by Mike on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:08 UTC

If you don't like it, don't use it and don't complain. If it doesn't work as well as your current distro, why even bother to switch? If your PC ain't broke don't fix it.

Ubuntu has it's place - understand what it's purpose is before complaining about it. It doesn't play MP3? Read the Wiki, it probably explains why.

etc...

These arguments and complains are boring and just detract from reading useful, relevant comments about Ubuntu (and other distros).

v @Mario Giammarco
by Pier Luigi Fiorini on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:14 UTC
Ubuntu may be nice for the end user
by Matze on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:23 UTC

I tried Ubuntu Linux 4.10 for about three weeks, because it was one of the first distributions which included Gnome 2.8. For users used to Windows, Ubuntu represents an easy-to-use desktop like the reporter said in the article, but for professional use, I wouldn't recommend it at all due to the following reasons:

- the root user hasn't got a password, therefore unexperienced users are likely to damage the system
- I'm unsure whether Debian packages could be installed or not without the risk of an instable system

I think Ubuntu could have a great future as a end-user distribution, because it's free, easy to use and everyone could order some free cds at http://shipit.ubuntulinux.org ... I really appreciate that Ubuntu is GNOME-only, so users aren't bothered with applications which doesn't fit in the enviroment.

RE:disenchanted
by yanik on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:27 UTC

"3) For some reason, it boots graphically at runlevel 2. Don't these guys understand the purpose of the runlevels? "

relax dude, the default runlevel to boot in graphical mode in debian is level 2. It's the debian way, as they say ;)

@jofas
by int argc on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:34 UTC

Not very smart to test high-level functions and non-standard or complicated hardware config for a first shot at a distro. What do you expect?

This wasn't my first shot at it. I also used the livecd in the machine to verify hardware compatibility, and I do not consider my config to be particularly exotic--it's not as though I've got some kind of NUMA platform here. Not very smart of you to insult me without knowing the facts.

- Samba worked out-of-box for me and for most people, in fact. I don't know what you're doing wrong, but Samba does not seem to be a huge issue on the ubuntu forums, either.

Can't comment on other people's situation. Here's what I did. I performed a standard install. I then installed the samba package using synaptic--the first package I even installed! It created a broken symlink in /etc/rc2.d and a correct symlink in /etc/rc3.d, which wasn't used because of the runlevel thing.

- serviceconf is a RedHat tool, not a Gnome component!
If that's the case, then this gripe was a mistake. The fact is, however, that one of the gnome packages promised a tool to edit runlevels, which I was unable to locate.

Everyone here is forgetting that Ubuntu isn't even aimed at us! It's designed for use in places that lack funding for commercial OSes, i.e. third world. You're all expecting WAY too much from it.

I just expect it to be featureful and correct. My config (a sort of improvised server built from commodity parts) is exactly the kind of thing I would expect to encounter in a third-world business, NGO, or government.

re:
by Luk van den Borne on Tue 8th Feb 2005 16:47 UTC

@Matze:
There is no root user by default. The first user that is made during install has the rights to do admin tasks with sudo command. Just enter your user password, which is technically not less secure than an ordinary root password (ie same encryption). It's just more convinient when you get used to it. You can also do sudo -s if you want a nice root session.

@matze
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:14 UTC

This makes absolutely no sense to me... can you elaborate?

"""
reporter said in the article, but for professional use, I wouldn't recommend it at all due to the following reasons:

- the root user hasn't got a password, therefore unexperienced users are likely to damage the system
"""

Just Installed recently and...
by D on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:17 UTC

I have to say, this is the nicest distro to date. Every time a new distro comes out from Mandrake, Fedora Core/Red Hat, Knoppix, what have you, I install it and see how it "feels". After all my searching, testing I've come to the conclusion that I like Gnome the best, I like my systems to be Fast and responsive, even on older machines, and I like simplicity. Ubuntu hits the nail on the head on ALL categories.

I'm currently using Warty, and have a few items I hope they resolve in the next update.

1. I'd like to see the packages grouped into categories, perhaps a nice graphical view, with icons. Something kosher and Gnome-ish.

2. I'd like to see a splash screen when Ubuntu starts...I hate looking at the endless scrolling of services loading. I know they are working on this...kudos.

3. A few more simple configuration tools would be great. Being someone that's not all too familiar with all the different packages, I'm not sure what package to look for when I want to do something in Linux. Example. If I want to edit the services and what starts up, I don't want to have to spend freaking half a day looking up online what package I can install to disable them. There should be a clear basic "standard" item installed. Power users can change later if they'd like.

There are a few more minor tweaks, but all in all, I think Ubuntu is heads and shoulders above it's fellow distros.

re:
by Roy on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:18 UTC

I have fooled with the live version and installed hoary last night, compared to Mepis, Ubuntu has a long way to on my old machines. Everything has worked for me in Mepis, not so with Ubuntu. I spent half the night trying to get stuff to work that should have worked right after install.

This is just my opinion though.

@jofas
by Metic on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:21 UTC

Everyone here is forgetting that Ubuntu isn't even aimed at us! It's designed for use in places that lack funding for commercial OSes, i.e. third world. You're all expecting WAY too much from it.

Where did you get that opinion from? Just because the distro name is an African word doesn't mean that, nor is it said so in the Ubuntu documentation. Though it's true that Mark Shuttleworth and co try to make Ubuntu a third world friendly distro too (language support etc.). Ubuntu is meant for anyone who would like a tweaked, supported, relatively easy and up-to-date Debian-based (and GNOME-based) distro.

By the way, I think Ubuntu should consider including a default firewall (maybe Firestarter?). Having a secure default install with no unnecessary ports open is no excuse for not having a firewall in a supposedly easy to use desktop distro. Period. Many people are sure to install software that opens all sorts of ports to Internet anyway. Is it really necesssary for newbies to try to find information about Linux firewalls and their configuration all by themselves after Ubuntu installs and while their Ubuntu boxes may remain vulnerable to outside threats?

A centralized configuration tool (à la Libranet Xadminmenu) for those tasks not well enough covered by the GNOME config tools would be cool too.

@mario
by mattb on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:32 UTC

>Yes I am very annoyed: why on earth I should be patient when they came out with a debian testing a little modified and polished and nothing more?

why would this annoy you?

>And people hype it as the best thing? I think seriously I will write a piece for osnews titled "value added distributions" to explain that:

i cant count the amount of distros that have been hyped to within an inch of their life. welcome to the world of linux, glad you could join us.

>-I like forks

ubuntu isnt a fork. the universe repos could be called a branching, cause the changes are made to be rolled into the official debian packages.

>-but a fork should add more value (real value)

like security updates?

>-you cannot call a distribution "a desktop distribution" just because it includes gnome

my definition of "desktop distribution" would be a linux distribution that includes desktop software. what is yours?

>-you cannot call a distribution "a powerful server distribution" just because it includes apache

my definition of "server distribution" would be a linux distribution that includes server software. what is yours?

network trouble
by Chris on Tue 8th Feb 2005 17:40 UTC

Hi fellow Austrian, which program are you using for DJing on Linux? I'm a gentoo-fan myself, but I never considered using it for audioprocessing....

v ubuntu hype
by slacker on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:01 UTC
One odd question
by Nicolas James on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:17 UTC

Is it actualy called "warty"?

v It's the flavor of the week
by Mortis on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:26 UTC
my 2 cents
by amiroff on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:34 UTC

I've tried Ubuntu on 2 different systems and ended up going back to Mepis on both of them. Mepis gives me all plugins out of the box, detects windows partitions and mounts them, has a bootsplash, some config tools (not enough though), uses debian repos directly, has a very very good installer (the easyest one, PCLOS installer comes next), all of gnome system tools actually work, windows network works out of the box and it has a good KDE support for my KDE fellows.

The only thing Mepis lacks is some graphics, and polish here and there on KDE desktop, and that it has many many packages installed by default (so called bloat). And of course, Ubuntu community is even bigger.

Anyway, I'll be downloading hoary again, checking other distros won't hurt anyone...

@mattb
by Mario Giammarco on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:50 UTC

>>Yes I am very annoyed: why on earth I should be patient when they came out with a debian testing a little modified and polished and nothing more?

> why would this annoy you?

I was replying to a person , read the subject.


> i cant count the amount of distros that have been hyped to within an inch of their life. welcome to the world of linux, glad you could join us.

Sorry but I am in linux world from a long time: when there was no hype and new distro were really "new". And when people started to hype redhat5 I tried it only to discover that "man printf" not work: I steered clearly from it and started using debian. Hype is for the windows world, in linux world it hurts me a lot.

>-I like forks

ubuntu isnt a fork. the universe repos could be called a branching, cause the changes are made to be rolled into the official debian packages.

Wow now you are discussing about the meaning of a word. Well, if it is a branch why they use a different versioning scheme so you cannot use debian repositories in ubuntu apt?

>-but a fork should add more value (real value)

like security updates?

No comment. BTW: also debian has security updates I suppose it is not necessary to start a new distro just for this.

> >-you cannot call a distribution "a desktop distribution" just because it includes gnome

my definition of "desktop distribution" would be a linux distribution that includes desktop software. what is yours?

Terrible: so all distributions in the world are desktop distributions.
Try to raise the bar please.

> >-you cannot call a distribution "a powerful server distribution" just because it includes apache

>my definition of "server distribution" would be a linux distribution that includes server software. what is yours?

Terrible: so all distributions in the world are server distributions.

Try to raise the bar please.

yep
by poofyhairguy on Tue 8th Feb 2005 18:51 UTC

"s it actualy called "warty"?"

Yep, the first release is called "warty the warthog." I use it daily.

kde
by Jere on Tue 8th Feb 2005 19:16 UTC

And saying the KDE project's design goal is clearly to look like Windows is ludicrous. I'm sure that's the last thing on their mind.

I doubt it. Anyway, they should.

re:Ubuntu
by anon on Tue 8th Feb 2005 19:19 UTC

I've installed Ubuntu before.. - a little "faster" than Fedora, nice GNOME experience - generally enjoy using it - however - to keep it in perspective - was it significantly better than anything else around - No, not at all....

Will look forward to the progress in future releases though, and good begginings so far ;)

ubuntuuusdfsad
by speel on Tue 8th Feb 2005 19:38 UTC

ubuntu replaced windows for me ;)

v Oxymoron
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 19:58 UTC
My distro is better than yours part 1000
by MateoGWJ on Tue 8th Feb 2005 20:16 UTC

Like everyone has said, ad nauseum, that Ubuntu is Debian, just modified with the latest kernels and drivers and tweaked a bit. So is MEPIS, as is Xandros.

It's not revolutionary, but they have hit on the right mix of ease of use, polish, cost, and expandibility. For most users, there will be a few apps missing, but the base configuration will be enough to fit an average desktop users needs.

Mepis is very close, but it lacks the polish that Ubuntu has, even though it ostensibly the same code base. If Warren gets the graphics nailed down, then noone would be fired up about Ubuntu, since most of what Mepis has, Ubuntu users have to install manually. He hasn't, and as a result, we are talking Ubuntu all the time. Looks matter.

And then there is Xandros. Xandros runs rings around most distros in terms of spit and polish, but it's proprietary, whereas Ubuntu is free. Xandros breaks Debian compatibility on occassion, so you are locked into the Xandros Network if you want to update reliably. Ubuntu lets you do that for free, and sends their code changes back to Debian. I'd rather spend the $80 for Xandros Deluxe (assuming its not on sale) on Codeweavers and Cedega on Ubuntu than on another form of lock in.

Does that mean that Ubuntu is better than Mandrake, Fedora, Slackware, etc..? That's an individual opinion, so it is hard to actually say.

For me, I think its 'Linux done right'. That's just me. I'm sure everyone else thinks their distro is the best as well. Great. What works for you, works for you, and what works for me works for me.

But this endless bickering over Distros has to cease. Suck it up, grow up, and understand that people will disagree with you.


Try MEPIS
by Linux_Hawk on Tue 8th Feb 2005 20:17 UTC

Try MEPIS!
No configuration required on Laptop, Dell desktop, Clone desktop 1, or Clone desktop 2! None, Zero, Nada, Zilch… It just works!!!
I have been using 6 months now, no Windows!!!

My only regret, I miss trying out new versions of Linux, but MEPIS is so cool and everything just works, I do not really feel the need to try anything else! I do miss it, but my satisfaction with MEPIS over-rides my desire to play with other distro’s.

Getting back to Warty… I have been checking on the reviews and forums. There seems to be a lot of issues with it, but people like this guy just seem to make excuses for it.

A perfect distro would not require all that tweaking, at least not for me. If it was supposed to satisfy all my requirements, it would begin without a hitch.

But that is the fun of Linux. It takes all kinds of people to make a world go round.

Releases every 6 months
by dimosd on Tue 8th Feb 2005 20:27 UTC

>generally enjoy using it - however - to keep it in perspective - was it significantly better than anything else around - No, not at all...

For me the single most important advantage of Ubuntu is its 6-month release schedule (and it's free). Otherwise I would stick with Debian testing/unstable.

I haven't tried Mepis, it should be good, but I prefer Gnome to KDE.

I tried Ubuntu ...
by blixel on Tue 8th Feb 2005 20:42 UTC

I put Ubuntu on an extra hard-drive on my Desktop and tried it on my Laptop. It was almost the distro that made me quit using Gentoo. I love Gentoo, but all the time required to install it is sometimes questionable. On my Laptop, I want a "just works" Linux distro.

Ubuntu is missing two things that would otherwise make it a perfect "just works" distro for me.

1.) An automatic repository updater that works the way "mirrorupdate" works on Gentoo. If "emerge" ever stops working for me under Gentoo due to a mirror being busy or no longer available, I simply run "mirrorupdate" and it will find available mirrors automatically. A long time ago when I used Mandrake, I hated that I would have to search the web and find new mirrors to add to the urpmi installer. "mirrorupdate" on Gentoo is a Godsend and I pretty much refuse to use a distro that doesn't have something similar.

2.) The portage system on Gentoo has a *huge* software repository. I never have to rely on downloading and compiling source code by hand. When I was playing with Ubuntu, I found several little things that weren't available via Synaptic. If I'm going to run a binary distro, I don't want to have to compile *anything* - otherwise it defeats the purpose in my opinion. Libs and compilers take up a ton of disk space. So if I have to compile even 1 thing, I might as well just use Gentoo and have the bennefits of compiling everything with the USE flags I want.

Out of the Box
by D on Tue 8th Feb 2005 21:27 UTC

Typical Users of Linux today (any flavor mind you) tend to know that they could tweak, configure, modify until their hearts are content. They are on the upper end of the bell curve often described as early adopters, innovators..etc.

What Ubuntu does well is give the average user a nice Distro they can quickly, and relatively easily install onto a machine, get them up and running with little to no linux knowledge, and have a useful, nice looking desktop that does very simple things.

No startx, no configuring Lilo, or Grub, no hunting for a program to edit a config file, just a nice clean system.
I could sit my wife down with Ubuntu and she can open a browser, configure basic look and feel items, and compose an email or two without asking a single question. Yes, there are other distro's that do this as well, some do it effortlessly like Mandrake, but they install a lot of other crap that the average user doesn't know, or could care less about.

Ubuntu makes it easy to drop in the CD on ANY computer and in about 30 minutes have a slick, nice system ready to use, that even the average person could use.

Not to bash further on any Distro's, they all serve a particular niche, Ubuntu seems to have found the General public niche, and done it well. Hopefully more will follow suit and stop adding features, and start working on simple, open, useability.

One final statement, I'd switch to a OS X in a heartbeat if I could get it on x86 architecture...why some people ask? Because I like the simplicity, I like how it just works, and I like how it looks. I could care less about being able to configure my mouse seven different ways from sunday. Give me a few programmers and graphic designers with a propensity for keeping things simple and asthetically pleasing, and I'll show you an OS people will like. Ubuntu seems to already have figured that out too...can't wait for the next release! Woot.

@mario
by mattb on Tue 8th Feb 2005 22:01 UTC

>Sorry but I am in linux world from a long time: when there was no hype and new distro were really "new". And when people started to hype redhat5 I tried it only to discover that "man printf" not work: I steered clearly from it and started using debian. Hype is for the windows world, in linux world it hurts me a lot.

gentoo? knoppix? mandrake? xandros? libranet? lindows?
six off the top of my head that were hyped to death.

>Wow now you are discussing about the meaning of a word. Well, if it is a branch why they use a different versioning scheme so you cannot use debian repositories in ubuntu apt?

a fork means "i am going to take this codebase and run in a different direction". a branch means "i am going to take this codebase and maintain it as a different version" linux 2.6 branch is the current version that gets fixes and whatnot (like ubuntu universe), 2.7 is the development branch where the new stuff actually gets added on. universe snapshots are taken every six months, that is not a fork.

>No comment. BTW: also debian has security updates I suppose it is not necessary to start a new distro just for this.

you mean WOODY has security updates. and no it is not nessicary to start a new distro, but you said there was no difference, i just pointed one out.

>Terrible: so all distributions in the world are desktop distributions.
Try to raise the bar please.

almost all operating systems try to be everything to everyone. personally, i think thats an awful way to design an os, but my opinion on the matter doesnt really matter ;-).

RE: NO wifi card detection.
by Ecio on Tue 8th Feb 2005 22:13 UTC

In my case Ubuntu perfectly detected my wifi card (vanilla orinoco 11b card) on my laptop during installation, tried to get the AP, then asked for SSID and wep password, got Ip via DHCP and everything worked flawlessy (i updated it after the install and still updates it via wifi). Im currently using Hoary (5.04) but Warty did the same (i tried it)

@Luk
by Anonymous on Tue 8th Feb 2005 22:17 UTC

sudo is technically less secure than having a seperate root password. if a user has used sudo recently, other sudo using apps don't require the users password typing do they. malicious code could take advantage of this.

spelling
by roshman on Tue 8th Feb 2005 22:19 UTC

If you are going to write an article, at least get the spelling right for a key program like SynaptIc (spelled in article as Synaptec, multiple times).

@ Chris (IP: ---.3.sc-graz.chello.at)
by Julian on Tue 8th Feb 2005 23:08 UTC

I'm using mixxx: http://mixxx.sourceforge.net/
Unfortunately its' not in the Ubuntu repositories, I didn't yet give a shot at compiling it.

Re: Roy
by Piers on Tue 8th Feb 2005 23:16 UTC

I did the same as you. I tried the Hoary Live CD and tested it on two systems, then on my home system I cleared a drive and installed the 06/02 Hoary iso.

At first I was getting a failure to read from the CD during the install process but then a niggling thought told me to switch off the PC not reboot straight from WinXP. Sure enough, after a cold start the install process was flawless and in a very short amount of time a functionable desktop.

Have yet to play extensively with Hoary but as being a Deb vet I'm sure it won't be too unfamiliar. It was the most painless Linux to setup and work with all hardware detected and working. Just like with the Lice CD on the 2 computers I tested it on.

X-org also leaves XFree in the dust. It is much nicer to use but that is too be expected as that's where the development effort is going. I liked using X-org server on Arch and I like it with Hoary.

i dig
by Anonymous on Wed 9th Feb 2005 00:06 UTC

I dig the Ubuntu. It's a great Desktop Linux where most everything Just Works. Also it's not cartoony like other Desktop Distros, it dosn't try to baby the user but give them a well rounded setup. I've noticed some bugs in Ubuntu on some people's hardware, like this weird video desync when some one logins with a incorrect passwd. Also their Ubuntu package repositories need more apps. A working Fluxbox with Menu building support, BMP and its plugins, root-tail, torsmo, to name a few. I hope some of those are included by now.

I also dig
by bman08 on Wed 9th Feb 2005 00:45 UTC

For me Ubuntu is also the best. Aside with some major problems with Warty on my laptop that are solved in Hoary, it works great right out of the box; even my d-link wireless card works. There's a good community that can answer almost every question in an average of 5 minutes, and if you add the proprietary and universe repos you're not going to find yourself wanting for packages. Among other distros I've tried, only Gentoo has had all these things, but after an injudicious -5 in etc-update I couldn't face a reinstall. Ubuntu installs in 15 minutes. For me, this is the first distro I've used that is LESS WORK on a day to day basis than Windows. To me the true measure of this distro's success is the fact that I'm spending less time than ever wrestling with system software and more time working.

Ubuntu...close, but no cigar.
by buldir on Wed 9th Feb 2005 01:16 UTC

"I think some of you guys are being too tough on this distro, it's only its first release, I cant remember a distro that wasnt a little buggy on its first release."

I agree with this.


"One final statement, I'd switch to a OS X in a heartbeat if I could get it on x86 architecture..."

And this.

I tried out Ubuntu, got all the multimedia stuff to work, i.e. mplayer, mplayerplug-in, xine, DVD playback, but...then there's this GD bug that doesn't allow me to eject an "enhanced" CD/DVD (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=9395&highlight=eject). My Intel Pro 2100b wifi card would also randomly turn itself off, even though I disabled the the wired eth. Intolerable. Other than those two things...keep up the good work. I'll come back in two years when it's name is Wascally Wabbit.

Ubuntu isn't all that
by Robert on Wed 9th Feb 2005 01:52 UTC

I have to agree with Mario Giammarco. Ubuntu is nothing more than the Debian installer with some additional packages. Which in itself, isn't necessarily bad, however, the additional packages are maintained by Ubuntu themselves rather than Debian. Why would you recreate a repository when there is one that has been in operation for years and has been proven time and time again. For those of you who believe Ubuntu is compatible with Debian repositories, you should read some of the forums on Ubuntu's site. Ubuntu themselves do not recommend using Debian repositories with Ubuntu as they may break the system and indeed, I have broken a Ubuntu system doing so. Also, what happens if Ubuntu's funding falls through? Will they start charging for access in the way that Linspire and Xandros simply to maintain this independent repository? The default theme in Ubuntu is awful and it isn't as polished as it could be. And Ubuntu doesn't give enough credit to all the works they have incorporated into their software.

I have tried every Debian variant out there (Knoppix, Mepis, Libranet, Ubuntu, Progeny, etc.) and found none of them to be pure Debian. And of course, pure Debian is hard to install for all the lazy people out there. However, I'm currently testing the usability of a new system which is in development. The link is as follows:

www.debblu.com

This distribution is another polished Debian system, however, there are some differences from all the others. DebBlu is 99.9% compatible with the Debian repositories. I say 99.9% because the only way to get 100% is to install using the chroot method. So don't worry about fees to access repositories. This project will include kernel 2.6.8 and gnome 2.8 with a decent theme. It is very polished and I have yet to see issues with it. Everything I've apt'd has installed perfectly and it is using Debian repositories in its /etc/apt/sources.list file. It's similar to Ubuntu as it uses the Debian installer, but uses pure debs (there is talk about an anaconda installer for the next version also using pure debs). From what I understand, they're using seeding methods rather than recreating the pure debs which keeps compatibility at perfect. I'm currently testing the "Xtra" version of the software which comes bundled in full with Java, Flash, Crossoffice, Cedega, DVD, and more. There is even a hard-printed quick-reference guide (like 30 pages) which will be made available for newbies. I've corresponded with the project leader and he is very practical and was another frustrated user of half-ass Debian systems and decided to finally put one out there that works, is compatible with Debian repositories and one that MS Windows users can understand. He is also considering writing up a how-to for folks who have no need for a printed manual and would simply like to install pure Debian and have no need for pretty packaging. But, it's clearly targeting people who despise installing Debian and to switch over those MS Windows folks. With the combination of Crossoffice and Cedega, many MS Windows applications and games will be made available. He mentioned that he hates having to include this software since there is so much software like Openoffice and others that replace windows software and also that this software will require a higher price tag since Crossoffice and Cedega aren't free, but, he feels to make MS Windows users switch, they need to have roots to their old software. The project is also instituting a very lucrative reseller program which will consist of store fronts and sales people. I don't think the details are available yet, but there is a link on the website for anyone who might want to earn some extra bucks. The website itself looks very professional. It doesn't have a support section yet, but will once the software is released.

I honestly think this could be the Windows killer since the leader of this project is not only good at keeping things simple and usable, but has a business mind as well. I believe the project will be offering a download edition which will be scaled back and won't include a manual obviously and the non-free stuff. The standard edition will be a hard copy for people with limited bandwith and that will have a small fee for the printed material and shipping costs. And finally, the Xtra edition which will be fully loaded and obviously won't be free.

Another plus is that the DebBlu project is self-funded and no one is pulling their strings. They are committed to pushing a Debian desktop to the world. Check out their website and drop them an email. They have been incredibly friendly, honest and very open-minded. Their quick reference guide will even have a list of all the names of people's work that have been incorporated into the software. Although because of the GPL, this isn't necessary, but it's nice when people give credit when it's due. I'm hoping more people get behind this project and will help get it out to the masses.

RE: Ubuntu
by Carlos Daniel Ruvalcaba Vlz on Wed 9th Feb 2005 03:10 UTC

I tried this distro a few months ago on my desktop, installation went ok, all hardware was detected fine as I use pretty much compatible hardware. The only thing was the video card, I downloaded the nvidia drivers, configured X and done.

I'm also an slackware fan and user, but I liked the clean ubuntu desktop, as well that openoffice at least comes packaged (you know, no slackware packages for OOo).

One thing that really annoys me, and so does many distros, is that I can't develop software out of the box, unless you are using one of those 4 cds or 1 dvd set distros, ala RedHat and SuSE, you will have to download and install several development packages, I don't say that package management with apt-get + synaptic is hard at all, is fine, but having to download at either slow speed or bear the yellings from my sister wanting to use the internet connection (online games), well, it annoys me. I love Slackare for this, no development packages, everything comes right on the same package, as compiled from sources.

Ubuntu and Mepis
by Anonymous on Wed 9th Feb 2005 05:05 UTC

I've recently tried both Ubuntu and Mepis (several releases), and while both do an okay job neither is as good or polished as Xandros.

@Robert
by Jeff Waugh on Wed 9th Feb 2005 05:08 UTC

"Ubuntu themselves do not recommend using Debian repositories with Ubuntu as they may break the system and indeed, I have broken a Ubuntu system doing so."

Ubuntu's repositories are not compatible with Debian's in the same way that the woody repository is not compatible with the sarge repository. Ubuntu stable releases are done every six months, branched from sid. This is essentially the same as what Debian releases are (ie. no more updates) but more regular. You shouldn't mix packages between warty, sarge and sid for *exactly* the same reasons why you shouldn't mix packages between woody, sarge and sid.


"Also, what happens if Ubuntu's funding falls through? Will they start charging for access in the way that Linspire and Xandros simply to maintain this independent repository?"

See the front page of the website. We have made a very public commitment that Ubuntu will always be free as in beer as well as free as in speech. Ubuntu will shut up shop before charging for the distribution.

"The default theme in Ubuntu is awful and it isn't as polished as it could be."

Oh well, at least this gripe you can easily deal with on your own desktop.

"And Ubuntu doesn't give enough credit to all the works they have incorporated into their software."

We don't? You should read our website. I believe we do, very much so. We even mention a number of the important projects we incorporate and work with on the default home page used in our browsers. The people involved in Ubuntu development *know* what it takes to be a good community citizen, and we take that role very seriously.

wrong
by poofyhairguy on Wed 9th Feb 2005 07:38 UTC

I have tried every Debian variant out there (Knoppix, Mepis, Libranet, Ubuntu, Progeny, etc.) and found none of them to be pure Debian. And of course, pure Debian is hard to install for all the lazy people out there. However, I'm currently testing the usability of a new system which is in development. The link is as follows:

www.debblu.com

This distribution is another polished Debian system, however, there are some differences from all the others. DebBlu is 99.9% compatible with the Debian repositories. I say 99.9% because the only way to get 100% is to install using the chroot method.


Wow. Thats super. And wrong. Kanotix will easily throw a Debian Sid on your system with a NICE installer. Not that it matters for me....Hoary has everything I want.

Same ole
by Jose on Wed 9th Feb 2005 18:38 UTC

Not to sound like a troll - but I have to agree that all of these distro reviews are all the same - 80-90% installation discussion and 10-20% about the distro itself. Not very useful.

re: wrong
by Julius049 on Wed 9th Feb 2005 21:08 UTC

Kanotix does not install a pure Debian Sid system on your machine. The kernel is custom and if you apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade, you'll eventually break the system. The website itself says it's "mostly" pure Debian Sid. I've taken a look at some of the preliminary Hoary stuff and it looks like a good product, but I'm still not convinced it's better than Libranet. As for DebBlu, it looks like the packaging of this product might convince some Windows people. I think it's quite good that someone is listening to the Joe Schmo's out there rather than trying to tell people what is best.

well...
by poofyhairguy on Wed 9th Feb 2005 23:35 UTC

Kanotix does not install a pure Debian Sid system on your machine.

Actually, when I tried to install the newest version it gave me two options: I could either install Kanotix (with all the Knoppix add-ons) or I could install plain Sid. I think that what they call Sid must be compatible with Sid (more than Libranet at least. I used that before Ubuntu, and it required some forcing to turn into Sid. Worth doing to have new apps with that nice adminmenu.)

Ubuntu
by felixdzerzhinsky on Thu 10th Feb 2005 07:54 UTC

I have am running ubuntu, fedora and windoze xp on my laptop. Ubuntu and Fedora were both easy to install but post-installation on Fedora is a pain. Fedora has failed to configure my sound card and my screen resolution is 800X600. Yum is a real improvement on up2date.

In ubuntu by contrast sound worked and I get a screen resolution of 1024 X 768. I love apt-get. I tried installing Sarge with the netinstaller but it did not work as well.

I do have a preference for Debian based distros mainly because of apt-get. But sometimes I will install Mandrake on some my freinds computers because they seem to like it.

Lately I have been getting requests from a lot of people to set up dual boot systems. Surf the net with linux...play games with Win XP. They can always get their email and do their banking.

I think some of these "distro wars" are a bit sad. The important thing is more people are moving towards linux and other open source solutions. The varied distros are a blessing. Try a few distros. Use the one that suits your hardware and your style of working. And no Bills!

Ubuntu the best?
by Tonto Schwartz on Tue 15th Feb 2005 20:32 UTC

Sorry, that is a comical notion to me. Like the reviewer I have been
around the block with many distributions, and many of the ongoing
versions of the various distributions, from Redhat 5.2 to Fedora Core
3. From SuSE 7 to Novel 9.

And many of the "little" distros, as well, including Vector, Mepis,
Libranet and a bunch of other Slackware and Debian clones.

What is my default? The "best?"

Mepis. Try it. ;)