As most OSNews readers know, I got into a spat with the Gnome developers last week, which culminated in my publishing of an angry editorial, which sparked a firestorm of controversy. On one hand, the controversy was positive, because it introduced a lot of people to the fact that many people believe that Gnome developers have not had an effective channel to receive and interpret feedback from users. But on the other hand, the controversy had the negative effect of inflaming passions, putting everyone's guard up, and perhaps even widening the gulf between those who love Gnome but want a voice in its future, and those who hold its future in their hands. This effect was unintentional, and I would like to apologize for any damage I might have done to the project.
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At least everyone who likes GNOME can be happy about the publicity the project received this way. I can't remember any other article get so many comments as the item on slashdot about your article and the response to it.
well there's always free-speech.. if there's a flamewar about it it's not primarily your fault, but the one of the one starting it and making false/exagerated claims... i'm a gnome user and i kinda like it..there are always some quirks but that's not gonna change my basic feeling about how i like gnome..
They are not devloping a desktop for their "users" and it shows. This is why people do pay for software. Then what they want and need is important. Note: Microsoft seems to be an exception to this, they do whatever they want and then shove it down our throat. By by in large most companies are concered about what their users want and need. Most open source devs seem to wish us users would just go away and not bother them. I have, I pay for what I use. If I don't get what I need or want I get a refund.
I didn't agree with the original editorial and found it odd that the rant came from a fellow hacker. Still, opinions are opinions and so you're free to air them. I'm glad you followed up though, to ensure we understand your motives a little better.
well, i believe you have good intentions, eugenia, but you really should learn how to do politics.
after all, everybody agreed that better user feedback is required for gnome foundation, let's start from agreement from now on, not from conflicts.
In emotional, heated circumstances like this, it's very hard for anyone to step down and try to apologize; especially publicly. It takes someone big to be able to do that. I'm impressed. I'd like to apologize in turn for being one of the people who initially attacked, without trying to see your side of the story (though I hope my recent efforts to do so in my blog have helped).
Thanks for your hard work on various things you have done in Gnome, from gnomefiles.org to the Linux+magazine you mention, to the pointing out of various issues in Gnome. (One of the reasons for my trying to clear out all the focus issues in Metacity was something you stated).
Definitely. I understood Eugenia from the beginning, so this article wasn't of relevance to me. However, it is good that she clarified the issue for those who didn't.
Satus: bug resolved and closed.
What a lot of people are missing is the fact that Eugenia cares about gnome.
From Gnome-files to a lot of the comments she has made about usability and we a lot of things.
You know a lot of people just pick a fav desktop or OS and just shut down and troll about everything else.
Here Eugenia is trying to be involved as a non-programming user of the desktop.
Did the discussion get too heated? Yes.
But at least the woman gives sh*t.
I am not a GNOME user and therefore, I did not even know what was going on a few days ago when many people seem to start attacking Eugenia. Well, now I know.
Anyways, I hope you boys and girls are cool now and life goes on as usual, hopefully better everday.
At least you apologize, it's a nice thing 
The real fact is that we, developpers are working really hard for the users and that we really care about what users think and want... We listen a lot to what users can say...
You have been really unfair with gnome developpers in my opinion.
That was my comment on this story..
Cordially,
Jon1012
Forgive us for not taking your apologies seriously. You went out of your way to cause trouble, and you succeeded. It's going to take more than a blog apology to repair the damage you've done to the Gnome community in the intrest of petty vengance against certain Gnome developers who personally snubbed you.
"Too bad that so many assholes online today really fucked up my day with their intollerance [sic]. Yes, you won the battle, you fucking jerks. But I will strike back, with double the vengeance." --Eugenia's Slashdot journal ( http://slashdot.org/~Eugenia%20Loli/journal/99724 )
Thanks a lot. My bugs are getting ignored because all the gnome developers are busy putting out fires that you started.
That's very big of you to say what you said in the article and all due respect. Truly.
But also: don't forget that these kinds of disputes happen commonly in FOSS work: who knows, one day, MS management will be quoting you in a seminar one day as evidence that FOSS "always" falls apart!
(NB - I don't agree with my last point, but it's an existing criticism of FOSS. All software producers have disagreements, it's just that proprietary companies do it behind closed doors...!)
it's a known fact that open source projects in general are lacking in documentation, or are developer-centric (not user-centric). there are notable exceptions though, and these are the projects that are big hits.
it's good to be in touch with reality. and your editorial just hit it home. personally i'd look forward to the day when open source software projects would have subgroups/teams dedicated to making great documentation, and groups/teams that define the direction of the UI, etc...it's gonna require more coordinated effort but in the end it'll be worth it
" Microsoft seems to be an exception to this, they do whatever they want and then shove it down our throat. By by in large most companies are concered about what their users want and need."
Ridiculous. No company is concerned about what users want and need, only what they can they sell, how best to sell it and how to squeeze as much as they can out of people. It's never about making the customers happy, it's about getting them hooked and making them feel good about being hooked. It's all about style and hardly about substance.
> You went out of your way to cause trouble, and you succeeded
You are assuming too much. These two seperate events had no link even if I was indeed angry when writing that blog entry on 1st of March (mostly angry to forum posters on Ross' blogs, NOT to the bunch of the gnome developers -- except maybe one).
Eugenia
I enjoy your reading your opinion and agree with alot of your points on here. Some readers tend to take things personally and no matter who says what, there are passions that seem to govern people emostions. This is good, because passion is what makes this industry grow. I dont think you should need to apologize, after all this is, in fact what happens in the world of press. Especially when it comes to people's lively hood. No matter what anyone says on this site, im gonna read it for its value alone. I just wanted to say keep up the good work, the news and opinions on this site give IT professionals insight and direction.
It is funny, really, how people just loose all reason when they feel they are personally attacked and counter attack instead of trying to understand the reason for the critizism.
Anyway. I think Eugenia's points were (mostly) valid, I pretty much feel the same way.
BTW, aas anyone else noticed that when Linus Torvalds says, in his not so politically correct way, that he doesn't like someone's idea or code no one posts insults or personal attacks against him, instead they try to hide in shame?
.. and I'm still using WindowMaker and xterm..
Hey, Eugenia admitted that she said many things in anger, and you are kind enough to quote one of them, from her "personal" (though public) journal. Maybe the Gnome people needed a few days distraction from their business as usual to doscuss some fundimental organizational matters. Your comment was not helpful.
i disagree wholeheartedly with you on most of your points. that being said, i still thoughly enjoy your passionate editorial style (passionate, yet rarely zealotous, which is quite uncommon). people with a brain, opinion, and a forum where they will be heard are few and far between.
that being said, you did start off quite the flame war, and this editorial was very good, and appropriate. i can only hope that the others involved will see it the same way
The thing about impersonal mediums is that you have to take the responses equally impersonally.
That was alot of heat Eugenia, and some of it was unfair. I think a few others owe you an apology back.
I think people forget the contributions you've made so quickly, and remember the faults too fast. It's rather unfortunate.
I think everyone is biased to some degree. To say you're not biased toward any one particular OS is simply not true. We are all human beings and we have our own likes and dislikes.
Perhaps a clarification is needed on what OSnews.com is about. As domain name suggest is it a news site which reader can expect some journalistic standards? Is it more of an personal blog like opinion site and therefore there is no expectation on unbiased news reporting? I think you needs to pick a hat and wear it.
If you want changes made to GNOME, who do you ask? GNOME developers? No, you ask Novell/Redhat salespeople.
That's ridiculous. Gnome is repackaged by hundreds of distributions. If many users want a change, why would you go to ONE DISTRO when you could go to the source of the software that needs repair? That's just silly.
It's good to see you wanting peace. Hope you keep helping OSS projects.
But next time remember, if you get angry about some mails in a thread, have a deep breath and read all the answers. Federico's and Havoc's interventions on the webpoll issue were respectful and thoughtful enough to get more consideration than the ones that got you angry.
And also, wait at least a day before posting editorials in OSNews like that, in the heat of the moment.
P.S.: You should mention the KDE developers too. They got some nasty effects from this polemic.
"That's ridiculous. Gnome is repackaged by hundreds of distributions. If many users want a change, why would you go to ONE DISTRO when you could go to the source of the software that needs repair?"
Yeah, except for one thing. Novell bought and paid for Gnome. They're not ultimately responsible for it? The real question is why is there a Gnome "Foundation" anymore? What did Novell spend that $15-20 million for?
>From Gnome-files to a lot of
>the comments she has made about
>usability and we a lot of things.
Unfortunately, not too meny people gives her credit for making gnomefiles, only place where you can check out latest gtk2 apps. Like this from one blog:
-------------------------
when she's put so much time into things like gnomefiles.org (which I think rocks, even if there are a couple issues from the foundation perspective on worrying about it looking like an official site)
---------------------
Yeah, that's what we need.. "foundation perspective". When they tried to make something like that, it sucked big time.
Reading Gnome Planet in last couple of days was painfull. Like they had nothing better to do than bash Eugenia. (maybe she deserved it, but do they have anything more productive to do..like writing menu editor or something?).
Keep up the good work, Eugenia!
I've never really understood what it is that gets some people so worked up about you.
Only now are people calming down enough to realize that ELQ made some very salient points.
Personally, I think she should get a medal for making the OSS community take a good hard look at itself and its strengths, weaknesses, and priorities.
And all the folks who went off half-cocked and ranted at ELQ and TH should muster the stones to come here and apologize with with as much grace and eloquence.
(Although, I daresay, that because of them, for about 2 days OS News was more fun than Fandom Wank.)
Come on, what you said in that article was just the truth that many Gnome users think but don't have a means to express themselves. You don't have to apologize, I would have said the same thing. There is no big deal about it, it becomes a big deal only if you think it is.
I like that article a lot. Bravo!
It's back to rationality !
All got very agressiv - Eugenia, gnome developpers, kde developpers ...
read also that blog :
http://www.gnome.org/~newren/blog/2005/03/15
I think, it is quite accurate.
Eugenia is also helping opensource. And I hope she will be able to rejoin community.
Like they had nothing better to do than bash Eugenia. (maybe she deserved it, but do they have anything more productive to do..like writing menu editor or something?).
yes off course
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2005-March/msg00044....
As most OSNews readers know, I got into a spat with the Gnome developers last week, which culminated in my publishing of an angry editorial, which sparked a firestorm of controversy. On one hand, the controversy was positive, because it introduced a lot of people to the fact that many people believe that Gnome developers have not had an effective channel to receive and interpret feedback from users. But on the other hand, the controversy had the negative effect of inflaming passions, putting everyone's guard up, and perhaps even widening the gulf between those who love Gnome but want a voice in its future, and those who hold its future in their hands. This effect was unintentional, and I would like to apologize for any damage I might have done to the project.
??? More like it introduced that to 10-15% and others agreed with developers. I know I did
As I said in previous post, idea could boost (and it's not bad either) if you would use gnomefiles.org for this. Make a "donation for feature request pools". gnomefiles.org already is a central repository to look for OTHER (not in gnome tree) gnome software. Why not become more than just that. Gnome base tree can't afford to track todays users wishes and requests. OTHER software can. And if I think correctly, that software could easily land in base distribution.
Most annoying bugs? ... Well, patches can be sent to the gnome-devel, if they are accepted or not, that's a different story
In years to come everyone will forget the arguments, the Gnome devs will have evolved into a more balanced team and a more pragmatic approach will be given to the collation and processing of information. It has to happen.
Both Gnome and KDE teams will benefit greatly from business "sense" in buckets, donated by the "commercial" desktop flavours we're now seeing come to the fore.
Everything is getting easier to use, everything is becoming more intuitive, everything is improving, slowly. We all get a little impatient to see things we'd like to, we all get a little riled sometimes when things which we consider "basic" are missing in favour of something we value less.
Larger and more complex the code takes longer to improve and fix, at least if it's done correctly. I'm totally behind the Novell guy who's pushing for optimal memory usage and cracking down on waste, that for me has always been a big "feature" of Linux which is slowly being eroded. It's been interesting to read the guys blog and find he's doing something constructive and positive, he's in a good position to of course, advantaged even, he has a "budget" and clearly money talks louder than verbal-bombs. I think and hope there'll be more such "bounty" for results in future, I think both KDE and Gnome dev communities will gain so much from it, not just the small cash rewards but longer term benefits too.
Meantime, I've seen a lot of this bickering before, developers tend to want to do the things they want most first, I should know (hehe), and shouting louder only makes them LESS likely to do what you want them to do (hehe). However, just occasionally you'll hit a nerve and cause a jerk-reaction coding frenzy, or at least the raise of an eyebrow.
You were right to complain, or rather, you had every right to complain, and they have every right to make a choice...to listen, learn and be pragmatic, or to carry on regardless.
Eugenia has nothing to apologize for.
The developers should apologize, bunch of prima donnas, they have been ignoring the user basic needs, they ignore bugzilla, the don't do windows. Well, windows have to be done, otherwise, the job is not done and the house looks like sh*t. Six months to fix something simple? Unacceptable. What, no time? Get out! Let some eager-beaver kid take over and do that in a jiffy, hopefully he won't have an ego, and be searching for a name for himself. These developers are not interested in Gnome, they are interested in their own path to reaches once they leave Gnome and go to work for some deep pockets company. Proof of this is the bloated mess they got, Slackware bailed out, why?
I blame Havoc Pennington and the rest of the nice managers, for not taking action and doing things right by straightening out the ship; they should be the bosses not the uncouth developers that fly off the handle, when somebody, who really cares about Gnome, tells it like it is. The object of the game is to better Gnome, and they have failed miserably. I hate to see Eugenia apologize, this will validate the sphincters' reason for continuing their mediocre jobs.
I saw the light about a year ago, now i use IcewWM.
Anonymous wrote:
> It's going to take more than a blog apology to repair the damage you've done to the Gnome community...
It's not damage, only disruption. "A little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing."
Ano Nymous wrote:
> It is funny, really, how people just loose all reason when they feel they are personally attacked and counter attack instead of trying to understand the reason for the critizism.
A good developer will look for the source reason. Apparently, the Gnome project is (one of many) lacking in this particular class of developer.
Eugenia don't worry about trolls who are unable to do anything constructive and spend 100% of their time looking for fight.
You rock, You're the boss and my private usability guru, and there is a lot of people who admire your work.
Good job taking the high road. Looking back, I didn't so much disagree with the article's content as much as its tone. It just felt overly harsh ("confrontational writing style"). Hopefully, people can put this behind them and get back to the business of improving Gnome. Thats what we all want anyway.
Really funny. Do people really care this much about one person opinions, motives - whatever they are, and recourse? Come on. Everyone will learn lessons. Move on.
Gnome's success does not hinge on the balance of this...nor does Eugenia's.
Quite frankly it all sounds like self-serving pandering. I guess it worked, eh?
This whole thing is so overblown.
The only thing it's crystalized for me is that my descisions to buy a mac mini and to re-install Windows are the right descisions at this point in time.
After 5 years, it's time for me to give Linux and a 100% FOSS desktop a rest.
(Anonymous:)
> Forgive us for not taking your apologies seriously. You
> went out of your way to cause trouble, and you succeeded.
> It's going to take more than a blog apology to repair the
> damage you've done to the Gnome community in the intrest
> of petty vengance against certain Gnome developers who
> personally snubbed you.
> (...)
> Thanks a lot. My bugs are getting ignored because all the
> gnome developers are busy putting out fires that you
> started.
Although I agree that Eugenia went way off her track (by losing her temper), I also question the strength of a community that is affected by a meaningless (for a gnome developer) rant on OSNews. A well-established community wouldn't give a **** about it.
... assuming, of course, that the community *did* care.
You just told what you thought. It's a shame now you feel the need to apologize and -even worse- that you felt hurt by the comments of people on /. or OSnews or what.
Continue to tell us what you think about it. Who cares about jerks that make flamewars of it? You made people think. That's ok. Stop apologizing and go ahead.
Forgot to mention, the articles, ELQs and the other one (can't remember who it was by) were almost spot on. The FOSS desktops are no longer just hobbyist scratch-an-itch projects, thanks to commercial interest.
Nat and Miguel started GNOME and Ximian and they're at Novell. Suse employes several KDE people and they're now at Novell too. Sun and HP were founding partners of the GNOME foundation and (if memory serves) it was due to their influence that things like internationalization and accessability were brought into GNOME.
Then there's RedHat who seem to have a very loud voice regarding the direction of GNOME.
So, all told, these projects really are at the point where it's becoming more difficult to divorce the interests and demands of joe user from the interests and demands of joe developer, and a means of accommodating both to the satisfaction of both sides will need to emerge over the next few years.
Until then, for me, FOSS dektops are trying hard and failing to be "ready for the desktop" and are way past being hobbyist projects. Personally, I can accept a hobbyist desktop or a commercial desktop, but not one which is trying to be both at the same time.
I guess that's by way of qualifying my previous post about going back to XP or OS X.
I feel so sorry that I actually paid for an OSNews subscription, I should have known that I was paying for it to be Eugenia soapbox... Now can we, please, get back to the technology news, instead of this useless and counterproductive use of the site as Eugenia's blog.
A serious and unaddressed tension does exist, in fact, between the notion that F/OSS projects are responsible only to those developers working the code, and the notion that the resulting F/OSS products should be used by millions of people now using proprietary software.
If a product is intended to be used by non-technical lay people -- users -- then its developers have a responsbility to pay attention to the needs of users. This can be done, superficially, by reading user email or allowing users to file bug reports. More substantially, it should include observing and working with prospective users in the environment in which the software is intended to be used, where the software will be a means to an end.
Developers need to focus on what users are trying to accomplish with their software. Users, believing, usually correctly, that developers don't understand their work, will often suggest seemingly awkward or improbable alterations to code. Rather than reject these out of hand, developers need to press the users to determine why they want that change and what kind of behavior they believe it will enable.
If F/OSS developers persist in the notion that they are not responsible to their users, then F/OSS software will eventually be used only by F/OSS developers. Users will not happily use software that comes to them as the leavings of cloistered developers.
Attacking hobbyist developers is a worthwhile thing? You stand by the argument, but not the tone?
It seems the truth is that the "Open sourcers" don't understand the gpl and the Free software movement. Of course the open source movement has made this whole "business freindly" approach synonymous with OSS. But what has been missed here is that the gpl is much deeper than what OSS wishes to imply... it is a direction for a certain type of action, which can only realistically be carried out in a few ways which were mentioned in the earlier thread (ie. there is no one you can hold accountable other than yourself, because it is your own freedom on the line.)
FLOSS has a natural evolution which won't happen in one night, and won't happen by following poll numbers, or one overzealous person wanting to reorganize their schedules and priorities.
Eugenia shows that she knows absolutely noting about volunteer group dynamics and the politics behind them. The lead developers were 100% right in saying that "developers do not need to be scared away", because they would be.... because they want to follow their own free will.
In another post I made the American Idol argument, and why that type of development could never sustain a project beyond the current climate... because users can only guess what they would want, but a developer can conceive of something that a user could never imagine because they familiar with the possibilities which can be created technically and how practical they might be to implement. The American Idol mechanism is not built in to the GPL... it is not a mechanism of it, and it won't be a mechanism of the community developing projects which are licensed by it. I realize it could be frustrating, but you have to turn that frustration into action by taking the freedom in your hands and finding solutions for yourself.
Also... Eugenia never answered whether she gets paid to write for OSnews, and I have a hunch why.
Enjoy the evolution, and the revolution that is the free software movement. When it fully comes to power by its own mechanisms it will be something that none of us could even fully imagine until we see it. It very well may change economies to meritocratic competitive capitalist organisms where no monopolies will ever exist again. Let freedom ring.
>Eugenia never answered whether she gets paid
>to write for OSnews, and I have a hunch why.
I have answered this MANY times in the past and it's on my profile too: the answer is NO, I do not get paid by OSNews or GnomeFiles or anything else.
I feel so sorry that I actually paid for an OSNews subscription, I should have known that I was paying for it to be Eugenia soapbox... Now can we, please, get back to the technology news, instead of this useless and counterproductive use of the site as Eugenia's blog.
Contact me and I'll refund your OSNews Membership payment, if you really feel that way. I do agree with you, however, that this should be a news site and not a blog or confessional for Eugenia or any other OSNews editor. But we do allow anyone who can write a cogent editorial to air their opinions or gripes about important OS-related issues, Eugenia included. I encouraged Eugenia to write today's comments (which normally I would consider too personal for OSNews) because of the controversy, and because she and many other people were still quite upset at what had been said.
Anyone else who feels they have a stake in this matter, or any other OS-related issue, and would like to air their views, I invite them to submit them to OSNews. This site is still 90% news and reviews, but the 10% opinion and editorial content has always proved to be popular and thought-provoking, so I don't see any reason to change the mix.
We all know AQ is a troll. It isn't worth your time responding, Eugenia.
(Although, I daresay, that because of them, for about 2 days OS News was more fun than Fandom Wank.)
Do I want to know what Fandom Wank is?
Your involvement in the ensuing discussion was like pouring gas on the fire.
Still you weren't off-base.
they like to flame too, at least you speak your mind.
There's no such thing as bad PR, there's just PR. The editorial once more showed us why.
But the controversial thesis also made an interesting discussion. Maybe it will result into something constructive.
Btw, Nikola Pizurica wrote: Unfortunately, not too many people gives her credit for making gnomefiles, only place where you can check out latest gtk2 apps.
Please google for 'gnome apps' to correct this statement. Thanks.
Eugenia, I think Penny Arcade put it best:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03-19&res=l
I'm glad that people seem like they're ready to put all this behind, and I look forward to the beginning of a productive release cycle.
2.12, roll on.
It is unjust for a project to tell end-users that their software is user-centric, try to put it into places where end-users have no choice but to use it, and then insult those end-users and claim "volunteer" status whenever they have legitimate grievances with their software.
There can be no peace without justice. Until non-hacker, non-unix end users get the justice they deserve, FLOSS projects should expect no peace and will have to deal with the dissenting voices getting louder and louder.
I don't even think you should have apologized. This is your opinion, not everyone has to agree with it. Even if some are upset , they are big boys and they will get over it. Now please on with some more news, and less sob stories.
--Ashley
You said that GNOME, and by extension all of Open Source, is not as user centric as commercial offerings, then went on to admit that commercial Open Source offerings are user centric but you don't want to have to pay for one. That seems kind illogical. Of course, being female, it's your perogative to be illogical but surely you can understand that the rest of us have a little trouble following your argument if you do.
<p>Volunteers will contribute what they find interesting. Commercial distributions will contribute what their users want. So if you want to make GNOME more user centric doesn't it make sense to go make your suggestions to the commercial distributions instead of the volunteers?
<p>Sorry if I hurt your feelings Eugenia. I admit I have a failing in considering other people's emotions when talking to them over the Internet. After all, whenever I find myself getting emotional about something that is said to or about me over the Internet I pretty quickly shake it off.
i don't see any reason to apologize. it is not your responsibility that 90% of nowadays internet users are brainles trolls who start a flamewar around your article.
...I really like JDS 3 which comes with Solaris 10 - release. I have installed Solaris Express/early access on a SPARC computer earlier, and the JDS/Gnome that came with it was nothing special, but JDS 3 is truly excellent. It's fast, too, which was an even bigger surprise.
One reason why I preferred KDE to Gnome, is that I found some Gnome developers to be abrasive or even just f*cking mean. I won't mention names, a certain IRC troll, for example, should be well known to most people around here. He and his friends are mostly employed by Novell, at the moment, which is sad for me, as a lngtime Novell fan.
So, in a way I understand Eugenia. Some Gnome developers just stir the s*it too much.
So presumably they'd be implementing features requested by Novell's customers right?
Eugenia, you want to be of help. Here's how:
*Publish an editorial policy. And the moderation rules are not it.
*David Adams should hire an English or journalism major to oversee this site.
*Recuse yourself from writing anything related to KDE or Gnome as you obviously have preferences and a stake in the issue. In fact, I believe that this automatically disqualifies you from making any comparative analysis.
*Take a basic course in journalism. The first rule of writing a good story is "show, don't tell".
*If this is supposed to be a news site, keep your opinions to yourself on your own personal site.
One non-site related piece of advise, if you are going to be a part of the open source community, learn to play by *our* rules. In other words, show me the code, the documentation or the double-blind user study that backs up your claims. Otherwise, you have the same standing than any of the charlatans on Trafalgar Square.
*Learn to take tips such as this one in a positive light. Being angry all the time is not good for your heart, you know.
But all you are saying is already happening. Every good developer does exactly this (press users to explain what they really want to do, observe casual users what they have problems with) and people often share their observations and findings for everyone's benefit.
It is simply wrong to assume, that just because GNOME doesn't do everything that's most popular (or not) in the web geek community, they don't care about users at all. In fact they do not listen _because_ they care about users. All users.
That is why controversies like the latest one are really sad, because they only make the problem worse. Not a single developer claimed that users are unimportant, but only that users can't dictate what developers are doing (for obvious reasons) and that tech news readers aren't the audience you want to poll to decide on general desktop functionality. Still people took this as "developers don't care about users" and went on a rampage. 
>*If this is supposed to be a news site, k
>keep your opinions to yourself on your own personal site.
No, osnews is not just about news. We have said this many times. Just like in any other news site, editorials and opinion pieces are part of the weekly menu.
One non-site related piece of advise, if you are going to be a part of the open source community, learn to play by *our* rules. In other words, show me the code, the documentation or the double-blind user study that backs up your claims. Otherwise, you have the same standing than any of the charlatans on Trafalgar Square.
Show me the code they say. Sure, that way as Havoc said in that very thread they can ignore your patch.
Right you only count if you are big corporation that has enough cash to throw at a double blind study?
Right all the people who use the software every day if they are coders or not, if they do submit a patch or not, or god help us they are a sysadmin who is not a very good C hacker are all ignored? Or should be?
I think not and from the fact the entire thread was started by a gnome developer asking for ideas on how to better include users in the process, even the Gnome developers are not as ardent and arrogant as your comments.
"By Anonymous (IP: ---.trin.cam.ac.uk) - Posted on 2005-03-15 23:42:33
We all know AQ is a troll. It isn't worth your time responding, Eugenia."
And people who post anonymously have a good reputation?
you have renewed respect from me after this
not everyone have the guts to say they are sorry...
and yes, the net is sadly a impersonal place, i guess thats why these littile smilys got "invented" 
until the day that we use avatars or video to deliver our posts and articles, maybe we all should try to learnatleast some basic smilys and use them so as to indicate when we are sarcastic and similar. why? well those kinds of speaking is very much a effect of tone and visuals. get the right smile in place or the right tone of voice and people are more likely to understand that what your saying is not what your 100% talking about
still, it would be a boring net without some flamewars now and again. i know i have both started and taken part of my fair share. sometimes i didnt read between the lines, sometimes i took offense where there was none, and sometimes the basterd at the other end was trolling and i stepped right into it.
thing is, we are all human. and as long as we keep going forwards as a group, some infighting must be expected. but as long as people have the ability to do like eugenia just did, we should atleast not be moving backwards 
When looking at the infamous Eugenia-gate scandal, one has to look at the facts.
Who is Eugenia?
She runs a fan site for OS, and people with an interest in the OS scene who don't want to wait for the CNN one-paragraph/4week late spin, tune in to hear some interesting comments, often from those in the thick of it. That's all Eugenia is, and nothing more. She has her role to play, and her site is very entertaining, most of the time...it's the OS world's version of taking a break from mowing the lawn and watching a sitcom sipping some lemonade.
On the other hand, I think it's fair to say that Eugenia is more involved than Joe six pack, when it comes to the OS scene, and I mean Joe six pack OSS user. Nonetheless, this does not make Engenia anything near a member of the developer community, and her agressive posts on the GNOME message board quite simply are "not the way it's done"-period, no way around that. If for no other reason, you make nice when you are in someone elses living room, and the GNOME boards are not meant for the same random spewing that you see in a OS news board.
Who is Gnome? A very high level project used by hundreds of thousands of people. The developers are going to be sensitive when they perceive a slight issued by someone whom they know has a forum to make her perceived grievances known.
Nonetheless again, I think GNOME community reacted to Eugenia's comments as if they were sent by someone who has the power to derail their project--which is in no case true, nor is that her intention. And yes, we known planet GNOME cannot be bought for $30, that was pretty funny!! This is not an SCO trying to destroy LINUX kind of thing but the response has been vitriolic.
A fire started, burns brighter when gas is poured on it. Whatever Eugenia's faults, as the runner of this "sitcom" here, she tries to entertain, and she also does let her true emotions out, which you have to appreciate, even if they are off track--she's not a schemer, she is herself.
No harm, no foul, in my opinion.
So this all started becuase Eugenia wanted to have those 20 features developed.
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-March/msg001...
It seems that Engenia wanted to help, making the requests, but wanted to make sure that they were developed; that's why she didn't want to use the bugzilla.
Why didn't she just created the list of features that she would like to see, put that on a page, and sent that to the the developers, in the first place?
Actually, where are the features that she would like to see? Instead of just giving comments on how to improve gnome, she wanted to prove that the whole development model was wrong, and that her way (a pool?) would fix everything...
One non-site related piece of advise, if you are going to be a part of the open source community, learn to play by *our* rules. In other words, show me the code, the documentation or the double-blind user study that backs up your claims. Otherwise, you have the same standing than any of the charlatans on Trafalgar Square.
Yeah, just like the GNOME developers are doing when they add new features like spacial browsing or the lack of a menu edition tool... After all, they know what's good for you, just like the chinese government (on another Square).
I am not sayng developers should be their users' bitches but they should consider their opinions since they are the ones using it. Few people knows how to code but many among them have great ideas that could make your software better. Anyway, why should you bother to develop and distribute your program when you don't give a shit on who might use it?
I don't read osnews due to the editor's opions.. no need for the apology...
I read OSNEWS cuz it has links to some great OS News going on.
I guess my deep insight would be that employees of Novell are paid to work on things that customers of Novell care about. Whereas volunteers are not paid by anyone (by definition) so they can work on whatever they please.
Seeing as there actually are paid employees working on GNOME (you can't say that about many open source projects) I think it is logically consistent for GNOME to claim that it is a user-centric project and have volunteers that ignore user feedback.
That's not to say that all the volunteers ignore user feedback, just that it is acceptable for a project that claims to be user-centric to have volunteers which do, because they have other developers who don't.
> So this all started becuase Eugenia wanted to have those 20 features developed.
Very wrong. It had nothing to do with that.
That's nice. I don't see how this relates to my post, though. Any chance you missunderstood me?
Sorry I misses that article and the fireworks, but whatever you said, Eugenia, like trashing the stuff or whatever, what's the big deal? Everybody needs to chill a little. It just some friendly trash talk, you know what I mean? No need to get thin-skinned. Free speech, dudes!
I like OSnews because the user interface is cleaner. I don't like the user interface of the Slashdot web site, in fact I get lost there.
Perhaps the proper channels that users can use to make feature requests to GNOME develoeprs are not effective, however your articles have not proven this yet, because they go off on tangents. There is a basic method that anyone can use to write an essay article, which protects you from straying from your thesis, and destroying your own argument. In Canada an English 30 course deals with essay writing, but I'm not sure of the equivalent course in the USA. That would be a good begining toward learning how to write productive artices, in which the thesis can be defended. Just raise the level of your writing, and be more professional when you actually choose an article to publish. Going off on tangents on a blog is different.
The difference between what a user wants and what I want is that out of hundreds of Linux distributions, I prefer to use Ubuntu. Ubuntu is the only Linux distribution that I consider using for personal use and for business use. What is so especial about it then? It suits *my* taste, *my* need, *my comfort*, me. Do I count as an aunt Tilly or a grandmother? No. Do I count as a geek-no-developer? No. What's my opinion worth then? Zero. Taken alone, most opinions are worth zero. Based on usability studies, opinions are worth gold.
For example, games are not going to be a reality anytime soon on Linux, so many people will continue using Windows for the time being. Should we adapt Linux to Windows game players? Or maybe, if Linux is gaining acceptance in the enterprise desktops, where people need to use just a handful of programs, should we adapt Linux to the needs of the businesses?
By making Linux more business friendly, people will invest more money on Linux, helping develop it to the point of making Linux the ultimate multimedia and gaming platform. Wait and see. :-)
This is totally off topic, but Linux will be acceptable to gamers when games become Open Source. It's really unlikely that the consume-and-forget games of today will become Open Source but some MMORPGs are already available. So I guess it really depends what you define as "anytime soon". I think there will be an explosion in Open Source MMORPG usage in about 2 years time. Is that anytime soon?
I don't see all the FOSS developers responsible for this "User Friendliness" problem. The main ones who I see as being responsible are the ones who take RMS's political and even verging on RELIGION view of FOSS to seriously. These people tend to place user friendliness below "total software freedom" (in otherwords making or using software with the GPL or some other "copyleft" license ONLY) in their considerations when developing a project. I on the other hand hold to the Open Source philosophy held by Linus Torvalds and Eric Raymond where there is room for both proprietary and FOSS development in computing. (As you know Linus was the first one to allow exceptions to the REGULAR GPL so that proprietary nVidia drivers could be used in the Linux Kernel) Indeed most of the successful and user firendly FOSS projects even including some from the Free Software Foundation like the GCC family of compilers and programming libraries actually hold more to the Open Source than pure Free Software philosophy. (The other GNU license, the LGPL in fact is built on allowing the mixing of Proprietary code and FOSS programming libraries as the Open Source movement does.)
Microsoft hit a home run with its DirectX technology, which is very proprietary and easy to use. It means that it takes some effort to break free of the DirectX trap.
And I think that it was all constructive critics for the Gnome team. Just because some overly vocal individuals do not agree with you point does not mean that you are wrong or you are the only person having that opinion. I think that most users would tend to agree with you.
I live in capitalism, I have to work for a customer to make money - If I disregard my customer I will soon have to find another job.
Paid or not - Lots of people depend on being productive when using Gnome. Listening to your customers or for that matter, your inner voice (Luke), I believe doesn't make a difference as they probably tell you the same thing.
I love Gnome. I also understand that discussion and sometimes disagreement are important parts of all developement processes. Your article was entirely appropriate and needs no apology but to offer one diplomatically sometimes is helpful. Political correctness where you never say anything that offends is a disease of American Culture that needs to go away because too much is often left unsaid. Much good will come of this discussion and it is this right to sincerely express opinions popular or not that gives much strength to O.S. News.
Also, for the Gnome People, thank you for all of your work and the gifts you have given me. Write your code for your own reasons and if they parallel with others wishes so much the better. I wish I could write code and contribute but since that isn't one of my god given skills all I can do is thank those that do. Thank you.
The proverbial desktop user.
Which is why Eugenia should have been addressing her "user feedback" concerns to the commercial Linux distributions who pay developers to work on GNOME instead of to the volunteers who work on GNOME. That's what caused most of the controversy: the perception that Eugenia was telling volunteers what to do with their time.
Don't worry Eugenia, you've done very little difference to the Gnome project. A rant on OSnews and Slashdot will have no effect on the hardworking developers out there. They do what they do because they love what they do. There was no such "controversy", just yet another flamefest in yet another online forum. Ho hum. The developers who make the real difference in this world will not be bothered by some yelling on some blogs out there. They're too busy doing real work.
She was frustrated, she was angry, she did not understand the free software development model, forgive her. Eugenia, don't write when you are angry.
(Although, I daresay, that because of them, for about 2 days OS News was more fun than Fandom Wank.)
Do I want to know what Fandom Wank is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fandom_wank
.
Talk is so cheap.
It amazes me that Eugina seems to think this is some sort of controversy?? People can talk and talk and talk all they want, call it ranting, call it shouting, but makes no changes in this world. An empty can makes the most noise. There were plenty of empty cans here the past few days. Finally, if there is going to be any change, it alays goes down to the real workers, the programmers. Nothing that happened in OSnews will change anything.
How many man hours of the developers time have been wasted due to this silly argument. This rant has not helped anyone at all and is an annoyance to the project. The developers made a decision on the direction of their projects, and we accept that. Of course if they have to babysit every little tantrum thrown out there, no work will be done. I'm glad that the developers didn't waste any time replying in OSNews.
I would just like to congratulate them in a job well done so far, despite having to handle annoyances such as this.
"She was frustrated, she was angry, she did not understand the free software development model, forgive her. Eugenia, don't write when you are angry."
I second that! She's so much better writing when she's happy
Seriously, I think we've all been there before, ranting about something before sanity regains control. And then feeling like an idiot. She apologized and that should be the end of it.
Nice that you apologized, but I think you should respond point for point to some of the rebuttals, such as:
http://www.pycs.net/lateral/weblog/
Basically all your points got shot down, and I haven't seen any decent defense of them aside from self-righteous flamers on these forums.
I think many people are forgetting that open source software already has a built in solution to the problem of people being dissatisfied with the project (whether this is because of deaf developers or something else).
FORK IT.
This is what happens to OSS projects that are going in the wrong direction. A common argument that I've seen is that if developers are not willing to listen to users, they should step aside for someone that is. Well guess what, no-one is stopping these new developers from forking the project and listening to users until their ears bleed.
Basically, if this were really the problem people are making it out to be, we'd already have a UserGnome and a UserKDE out there right now, and they would be wildly successful.
But we don't. Funny that.
Controversy? No way. OSNews is another Slashdot. Good for a few laughs, but very easy to ignore.
Controversy? No way. OSNews is another Slashdot. Good for a few laughs, but very easy to ignore.
Fork it. Heh, that's funny. You know you actually have to do work to fork something? You can't just say "GNOME is broken. Here's all the things that I think should be fixed. We're starting a fork!" and then sit around and wait for someone to show up and implement it for you.
Eugenia, this site is great. That's all I have to say.
Direct comment link Hmm
By leo (IP: ---.gv.shawcable.net) - Posted on 2005-03-16 03:32:57
Nice that you apologized, but I think you should respond point for point to some of the rebuttals, such as:
http://www.pycs.net/lateral/weblog/
Basically all your points got shot down, and I haven't seen any decent defense of them aside from self-righteous flamers on these forums.
Yep another voice of a programmer who is developer-centric.
Wow. There is a lot of surprise in that opinion.
Havoc in half of the damn thread that started this nonsense refuted that guy.
Let me summarize his opinion:
You don't contribute so shut up.
Even though a ton of the gnome developers get checks from Novell or RH they should all be treated as donating their time and even asking for something like a feature request is a transgression to the great programmers gods. And god help you if you want to actually help the programmers find out what those nasty little end lusers really want. That is just a secret opening to the mean end lusers forcing their wishes upon the mighty programming gods.
Ok but what about the people that try to contribute through patches that are ignored and even Havoc on that thread admits it?
What about all those feature requests that are ignored? Its not like Eugenia's main point was that bugzilla is too hard.
The guy busts here for not doing something but she was proposing to try and do something. Maybe she did not have the best idea but you would think from the response that the women got from a handful <--(note this!!!) of developers she had gone to each of the developer's houses and crapped in their coffees.
Oh yeah, its so much fun to contribute to Open Source when you get that attitude back. The sad part is that a bunch of people I think responded to her in a completely reasonable way.
But a few responded like Eugenia was demanded they hand over the rest of their working lives to the whims of internet polls and user feature requests. She did not say that she was coming over to their house to chain them to the keyboard.
It was all about getting more user input and that was it.
She was even big enough to admit she did the wrong way and in a way that hurt the overall project.
But even when the programmers find the newest library they need off of gnome-files they will still curse Eugenia as they download it for gnome-files not being a Foundation site.
If you've been around long enough, you'd recall there have been attempts to fork GNOME. The forked project is clinically dead. Some people, users especially, underestimate the amount of effort it takes to establish and manage a successful free software project, like GNOME or KDE.
Let me summarize his opinion:
You don't contribute so shut up.
Re-read the article I linked to, nowhere does it say that.
And since your basic assumption is wrong, there is no point replying to the rest of your post.
If you've been around long enough, you'd recall there have been attempts to fork GNOME
Yup. I remember the last time.. Can't remember what it was called. I think the only patch to ever come out of it was one to reverse the button order.
Indeed, talk is cheap, but most people have no idea how much work developing something actually is. I do, and therefore I am very grateful to get all this kickass open source software for free. Yes it has warts, big deal, this is common to all software.
I've had bugs fixed and features implemented in OSS, even though I contributed nothing more than a bug report or feature request. That's more than I can say about any proprietary software I've used.
Let me summarize his opinion:
You don't contribute so shut up.
Re-read the article I linked to, nowhere does it say that.
And since your basic assumption is wrong, there is no point replying to the rest of your post.
Actually his point was even more harsh.
Developers are essentially the only ones that count and if you want to count then become a developer.
You don't respond but you comment which is typically behavior when one does not have a decent retort.
I hate to do this, but the project was called GONEME.
If another developer tells me to implement something that I don't want to I'll tell him where to jump too.
Those developers who get paid by RH or Novell probably have some manager at RH or Novell who tell them what they have to code. They listen to this person because that person gives them money.
I really don't know why we have to explain this. You'd figure it would be a simple thing to understand.
You don't respond but you comment which is typically behavior when one does not have a decent retort.
Sigh..
I asked you to respond to it or point me towards a point by point rebuttal.
What you did was reiterate the original points that Eugenia and countless others have made.
You see, an debate is structured like this:
1. Points
2. Counterpoints
3. Count-Counterpoints
I asked you to respond to step 2, not go back to step 1.
Notice how the post I linked to presented each individual point and then responded to it? That's how you debate.
I don't know what you mean by "count"
By QuantumG (IP: ---.lo1.lns1.server-access.com) - Posted on 2005-03-16 04:12:25
If another developer tells me to implement something that I don't want to I'll tell him where to jump too.
If you don't program then you cannot contribute and if you cannot contribute then you do not count and I can ignore you and 60% of the trolls on the net will back me up.
But!!!!
If you can code and you ask me to implement something I tell you to go freakin jump and write it yourself.
Then I take your patch and sit on it with my middle finger in the air pointed at you until you give up all hope.
That is the great paradox of bad Open Source development.
Not all projects are like this but it is damn frustrating to watch when your favorite desktop has some of its biggest guns sit back and tell you that submitting a feature request is pointless and submitting a patch moreso.
Ok but what about the people that try to contribute through patches that are ignored and even Havoc on that thread admits it?
I haven't read that specific post. I would suppose patches get ignored for a few reasons:
1. The patch is poorly coded
2. The patch implements functionality that is contrary to the goals of the project
3. The patch solves a problem in a backwards way
4. The developers are too busy to accept it. Remember that reviewing a patch is often just as much work as coding it.
What about all those feature requests that are ignored?
Once again, could be one of:
1. The feature requested is stupid or contrary to the goals of the project.
2. The feature requested requires major changes to the underlying platform.
3. There are no developers with time to implement that feature.
Oh yeah, its so much fun to contribute to Open Source when you get that attitude back. The sad part is that a bunch of people I think responded to her in a completely reasonable way.
Yes, some responded unreasonably. It is the way of nature to put your spikes up when you feel like you are being attacked.
re: Leo
By leo (IP: ---.gv.shawcable.net) - Posted on 2005-03-16 04:16:26
Sigh..
I asked you to respond to it or point me towards a point by point rebuttal.
Nope. Sorry. You are wrong.
You asked me to do nothing.
You asked Eugenia to respond point by point.
I merely commented on another arrogant response in defense of the developer-centric model and since you know that everything I said above is true but you don't want to admit it, you dismiss my post.
Which is a pretty typical method of admitting you have nothing productive to say or you would use your own words instead of hiding behind a link.
@Johnathan Bailes
By leo (IP: ---.gv.shawcable.net) - Posted on 2005-03-16 04:23:56
Ok but what about the people that try to contribute through patches that are ignored and even Havoc on that thread admits it?
I haven't read that specific post. I would suppose patches get ignored for a few reasons:
1. The patch is poorly coded
2. The patch implements functionality that is contrary to the goals of the project
3. The patch solves a problem in a backwards way
4. The developers are too busy to accept it. Remember that reviewing a patch is often just as much work as coding it.
How in god's name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
Havoc said that many developer's do not implement patches because it is in his own words "just too much of a pain" in such a big project.
I don't get it, if you don't like the way the volunteers are handling your feature request (with or without a patch) why don't you go become a customer of a commercial Linux distribution and let them know about it. They'll do everything in their power to make their customers happy and that means you. You don't have to learn how to code, you can "vote" with your dollars.
You can ask developers to implement features if you are polite, humble and willing to offer any form of assistance. Developers appreciate these qualities in users. You do not even have to be a hacker. Being reasonable and understanding is also a plus.
In contrast, if you are rude, uncompromisingly forthright and insulting to developers, expect zilch. If you make a mockery of their project, and you expect them not to take it personally, you are being obtuse. And if you compare their project to Apple and Microsoft projects, that have millions of dollars in funding to squander, you'll incur their wrath.
Not all projects are like this but it is damn frustrating to watch when your favorite desktop has some of its biggest guns sit back and tell you that submitting a feature request is pointless and submitting a patch moreso.
Where exactly did a developer say this?
There is a difference between not listening to users, and not bowing to every one of their whims.
Feature requests are appreciated, but don't count on them being implemented. Just checking the kde bugzilla comes up with: Total: 8312 bugs and 7930 wishes
Most of those will probably never be implemented even if every developer jumped to it right now. Big deal, get over it or start coding.
How in god's name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
I figured you'd wig out over that point.
I've read enough to know what its about.
Respond to my post, don't get sidetracked.
Havoc said that many developer's do not implement patches because it is in his own words "just too much of a pain" in such a big project.
Perfectly valid reason. You think they should be forced to implement these features against their will? No? Then do it yourself or pay someone.
How in god's name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
Also, don't compare me to those who are attacking Eugenia personally. They're idiots.
I have nothing against Eugenia. I just think she is misguided and doesn't understand how open source works
I merely commented on another arrogant response in defense of the developer-centric model and since you know that everything I said above is true but you don't want to admit it, you dismiss my post.
No, I responded to it. Just not in the first post.
Which is a pretty typical method of admitting you have nothing productive to say or you would use your own words instead of hiding behind a link.
Christ. I could rewrite everything this guy said in my own words, but what's the point. I agree with his points, and I think they are well stated, so why repeat it?
hey Eugenia,dont aplogoise.be happy that u have said ur words..remember one thing, "If you're on someone's shitlist, you're doing something right."...and as long as gnome developers dont change their harsh attitude,things wont be the same for gnome in future...and this entire event is one good example why many have already switched to KDE development..
@Johnathan Bailes
By leo (IP: ---.gv.shawcable.net) - Posted on 2005-03-16 04Most of those will probably never be implemented even if every developer jumped to it right now. Big deal, get over it or start coding.
What is the point if I code up a patch and it gets ignored?
What make a fork for goodness sakes?
Nobody was talking about chaining developers to a chair and forcing them to implement every user whim.
The whole thread in the developer list was started when a developer asked for ideas to involve users more in the next release.
It was about getting an idea of what user's really want because they cannot implement every feature request.
First the developers say essentially they want some ideas on involving users because of so many feature requests and a handful as per my original post please said they did not care and that even getting that information did not matter.
Caring what the user thinks is a far cry from being the request b*tch of the same said users. A fary cry in an arguement of pure extremes.
I use gnome every day for work and home. I am a Unix sysadmin. I like it a great deal and if the Gnome Roadmap is any indication and they actually get all that stuff in one release I will be a much happier user.
However, after reading some of the responses by some of the developers and looking over feature requests like proper samba browing in Nautilus (Connect to Server works but browsing into a host launches no username and pass prompt so you get no permissions error) or the now famously silly decision to implement a new menu structure before they finished a proper menu editor is just very, very frustrated for a user who prefers gnome and gtk+ over KDE.
Heh, that's interesting. I just recently heard that many of the KDE developers have quit over the years due to a lack of freedom. Maybe they went and worked on GNOME, maybe not. The point is, maybe whining users results in a lack of freedom, which results in developers moving on, which results in users switching to something else (cause there's no developers to implement their features) which results in whatever they switch to losing it's developers which starts the cycle all over again.
Gnome is and has always been the shining example of a user centric product. Not the users like whiny blog owning people, but the majority of Joe six packs out there. Therefore, the direction of the project can only be decided by those who do the programming, no silly web poll as suggested by eugenia will ever represent the opinions of the target audience.
eugenia can suggest, the developers can reject. They decided that the suggestions will are not suitable for the target audience.
Ranting and raving will not change their mind, only further solidify their opinion that you're just full of ranting and ravings.
firestorm of controversy ??? Give me a break! A couple of rants on this blogsite is totally irrelevant in the big picture.
Gnome is a very user friendly desktop, and its due to the acute sense of direction of the developers of finding the best suggestions to implement.
Gnome goes on, i bet the gnome forums don't even mention this so called editorial. They are hard at work improving their product, not busy complaining "no one listens to me".
Gnome goes on, i bet the gnome forums don't even mention this so called editorial. They are hard at work improving their product, not busy complaining "no one listens to me".
Could have fooled me half the personal blogs on Planet Gnome took the time to comment or in some cases personally flame Eugenia.
As someone else earlier said, "I wish they had put that time into writing the new menu editor."
But for the curious that and a lot more is coming:
http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap
Well this will be my last post on the subject ("Thank god" I hear you cry). I have wasted way too much time on an ultimately moot point.
I explained to you why patches don't get accepted sometimes and features don't get implemented. Many times it is just a matter of developer time not being available.
You claim you do not want to force devs to do anything, and you also don't want to code it yourself, or hire a developer to do it. So what is left?
So Gnome needs a menu editor in your opinion. Why does it not have one? It just hasn't gotten done yet. The lumps come with the gift I guess.
There are three options to get a menu editor:
1. Code it yourself
2. Hire a developer to do it
3. Force a developer to do it
You say you don't want to do any of those things, and yet you are mad that the feature is not there. I don't see how this line of reasoning is at all productive.
Take some courses in essay writing and journalism and rhetoric. Write articles using professional techniques.
Eugenia, well done! Its amazing the type of perspective time and distance can produce. The important thing is not that we agree or disagree but how we act towards one another; by reflecting and choosing grace you have demonstrated that it is always a better choice than disgrace. I wish more of the readers here would take your lead (ahem, Mr. Bailes) as no one needs to continue to rehash the points of an argument that went far beyond its intended mandate. When reasonable people act reasonably it is inevitable that reasonable solutions will be found. Many people who don't get involved in the development process aren't aware of how heated debates can get even among co-operating developers. It isn't the heat of passioned debate that incites division but rather the taking of personal stakes and the false impression that we are really distinct and disparate groups. You are correct, "users" and "developers" want the same thing. Both groups want to help the other. Not every discussion will lead to favoured results but when we remember each others humanity, we have already made the most important step, the very step that sits at the heart of the FOSS movement -- empowering each other through cooperation and respect. Ubuntu is an aptly named distribution for this very reason. If even one user (recall developers are users too) is left behind or castigated then we have much to learn and much more work to do.
Thank-you, Eugenia. I don't strictly agree with your points but I respect your right to have and to champion them and I applaud your decision to do the best thing possible (in this case) for the project and the community which also happens to be one of the hardest things a individual person can do: to let go of personal ego for a moment so as to stop a bloody battle. I'm left thinking of the story of the Mahabharata: despite the pleading of his family, his friends and even Krshna, Duryodhana would not set aside his pride and personal agenda. This lead to the inevitable decimation of an entire nation. How lovely that history need not repeat itself endlessly!
Best Regards!
So Gnome needs a menu editor in your opinion. Why does it not have one? It just hasn't gotten done yet. The lumps come with the gift I guess.
It does not have one because the gnome developers made the decision to ditch the old limited method and implement a new xdg complaint menu system but saw it as a low-priority (huh?!?) to actually finish the menu editor before doing this.
It is being coded now for the Gnome 2.12 roadmap and if I thought my patch would not be ignored I would go that devel thread that has some examples of the new editor and contribute some work. I don't program C that well but why bother boning up on it when developers say they just don't have the time to go through patches that they want to implement anyway.
That was the frustrating part.
Not that a patch was refused but they are being ignored and the guys who are getting paid to deal with gnome on a daily basis admit this.
Even the ones they want to implement.
I am frustrated that XFCE handles samba browsing better than gnome and that it was been a problem with gnome since vfs and nautilus was intro'ed into gnome.
Why not? I am not trolling around saying gnome sucks or nonsense like that.
With all the corporations using gnome as their desktop it is just mind-boggling that someone has not put resources on getting samba-browsing in Naut fixed.
I have watched a number of development lists for awhile now and I do know how OSS development works. It does not mean that FOSS is perfect or a panacea and I still believe it is the best way.
However, burying your heads in the sand and ignoring some of the problems like getting user input without bogging development down in useless features is important to address.
Am I fixated over the menu editing example?
Yes, because it is the perfect example of this since it did NOT have to happen. There was no over-whelming reason to break the little bit of functional menu-editing available in gnome to implement a new menu system until a functional menu editor was in place. The world would not have ended. Sun would not have dropped gnome and the sun would not have expired. But someone just forgot to care that not all of us want to edit desktop files through vi to edit a menu entry.
I know because I do read those developer lists.
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted. And then made decisions based on the need of their development with that input in mind. No dictation of development from users just input. Which is all anyone was talking about to begin with.
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted.
a better way to put it ...
It would be productive if Eugenia hadn't sidetracked the developers with the web poll idea and instead she could have tried to set up some real world testing so she could actually contribute and not rant.
Rambus (IP: ---.tm.net.my) - Posted on 2005-03-16 05:47:56
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted.
a better way to put it ...
It would be productive if Eugenia hadn't sidetracked the developers with the web poll idea and instead she could have tried to set up some real world testing so she could actually contribute and not rant.
If you do not know that a few of the developers were just as much to blame then you did not read that thread.
Yes, I think she reacted badly at one point.
Yes, I do not believe it warranted an editorial here.
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
Perhaps. But now is the time to let by-gones be by-gones and to lay down our arms. It is time to return to thinking, planning and working towards the next small or large contribution that we can make to help everyone along. Let us continue to disagree if we must but let us stop pointing fingers at each other. Who does that serve except, perhaps for one moment, our own egos?
Best regards.
By Magic8 (IP: ---.qc.sympatico.ca) - Posted on 2005-03-16 06:02:31
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
Perhaps. But now is the time to let by-gones be by-gones and to lay down our arms.
I should edit that remark to say a handful or a few of the developers.
By the way.
So why don't you contact your commercial Linux supplier and request them to make the menu editor a priority. As their customer they will listen to you. If not, go to another commercial Linux supplier.
GNOME rocks!
I'm using the latest version from Ubuntu hoary and it has a new theme and Firefox rocks even more. I can't tell you how much happy I am with my Linux desktop, though it's not perfect because I'm not using one of the latest kernels because one of the programs that I develop has some conflict with the kernels. The problem is that it's a "leaky abstraction" so I can't hand a C/GTK code that reproduces the problem, at least not yet, because I use Ruby-GNOME2, which adds two more layers to the C/GTK (Ruby's and Ruby-GNOME2's). But I'm still happy.
Very good attempt at peace making Eugenia. Unfortunately, the very predictable response and attacks continue even when you are trying to extend an olive branch. The name calling, pouting, and "I'll attack anyone who dares not share my opinion" crowd are whining as expected. The guys at Microsoft must be laughing their a$$es off when they read this stuff. Linux is growing in spite of you clowns, not because of you. Grow up or go back to Slashdot with the rest of your chest thumping cronies.
Sheez...
close your eyes and pretend that this is not happening as much as you want. Your frients at Microsoft have their eyes wide open, I assure you.
...if we made a big poll, and most of OSNews readers requested proper threading for this site's comments feature, would it be implemented?
That would be a nice way of saying "Dewd, get the hell out of here". :-)
Don't bet on it. Just a silly question: what software is it that OSNews is running? Is it even open source? Cause if so I'll gladly hack on threading.
It takes guts to admit that one wasn't innocent in letting this discussion (and I still think Eugenia had some valid points, btw.) spiral down into a flamewar. Very impressive.
And while we are at it, thank you Eugenia for your efforts in improving Gnome, gnomefiles.org especially is something I would truely miss if it wasn't there anymore.
"close your eyes and pretend that this is not happening as much as you want. Your frients at Microsoft have their eyes wide open, I assure you."
Sorry to burst your bubble dewd, but entire reason I even visit sites like this is to look at alternatives to Microsoft. Just because I think irrational rantings and attacks by a lot of childish posters accomplish nothing good it doesn't mean I have friends at Microsoft.
The bug that I referred to could be related to this:
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2004-03.html#04
Many many times on win32 I have wanted to make an app that lets the user choose the directory where files will be saved. Using GTK this has never been a problem. But now both win32 and GTK have this annoying feature that you can't select a directory in the file chooser.
This is so funny... You're all worse than 3 year olds. Having to post derogatory comments about each other and then having to publicly apologise is just so stupid. When are you going to grow up!
"I realize that my confrontational writing style makes me particularly susceptible to this kind of misunderstanding"
Personally, I've got more problems with the confrontational modding style you use. Sorry to have to say this, but I think you have an inconsistent modding behaviour and a lot of people I talked to agree with this point of view. This worries me much more than confrontational writing (which is often good to provoke discussion on a subject.
Hope you don't have hard feelings about my comment.
Darkelve
I don't think you're the one who should be apologizing for this Eugenia. It seems to me that you had full right to say what you said.
I just would like to mention the following:
I responded to Eugenia's original article with 4 posts. It was clear to me that she was on to something while at the same time it was clear to me that the rhetoric she used to make her points clearly illustrated her lack of 'savoir-faire' in how to deal with the FLOSS community on it's terms.
I read all of the pro-users and pro-developers this and anti-users and anti-devs that. Strangley enough I felt as if know one was speaking to me, and those who do what I do. I am a sys admin administering GNOME desktops for 300 users. So what does that make me-and those who do the same kind of work ? are we users? we certainly aren't devs -but where do we fit into this user vs. dev dilemna.
I did not feel as if I was being addressed when I read how some dev's were talking about users. Let's face it devs, as software developers, don't have any direct interaction with users, period. Me and my ilk do. We are the ones who have to work out work-arounds for all of those things which the dev's didn't get right.
I can attest to GNOME being 'user-centric' in one important sense-GNOME has made leaps and bounds when it comes to implementing software in such a way that users aren't constantly bothered by things which require more technical knowledge of the computer.
But from my standpoint as a sys admin "user" of GNOME I can state unequivocally that GNOME has been utterly lacking when it comes to providing the tools that I need to properly administer GNOME desktops. In fact administering GNOME desktops has been a usability nightmare since the introduction of 2.x. Ironically GNOME is so 'user-centric' that most of it is coded as if there were nothing but 'users' and developers.
Me and my ilk are fighting in the trenches. We are the ones who face user complaints.Moreover sys admins are the one who need to be convinced that GNOME is best platform for a solid desktop experience-we are the one who implement these desktops for users. When I took on my job as sys admin I chose to switch from KDE to GNOME for the default desktop- I did this because of the 'users'. KDE for sys admins is far and away much easier to administer. But KDE, IMHO, demands too much from users who usually cannot even remember to pay attention to where they saved their document. I am forced to follow the developments at GNOME just as I am forced to follow the implementation details surrounding the gconf system, the mime system and all of the issues with gnome-vfs.
In fact 40% of my time has been spent on trying to grok the various GNOME subsystems and find work-arounds for the issues that they bring. And considering that each of these subsystems have gone through major reworkings in the past 3 releases and that there is 0 documentation about these changes has made this work much harder.
to give a concrete example: as a personal GNOME user I abhor the loss of menu editing functionailty in 2.10. But as an admin, me smiles
When some dodo-bird dev decides to change the MIME-spec for MS-word documents according to what *he* thinks should be standard ignoring 99% of web page links- I have to solve it-for if I don't my users scream bbloody murder.
Gnome-vfs + samba has caused me more hair loss than all of the years of my life put together. I recently read about a 'bug' with gnome-vfs- and that bug suggested a patch to samba to solve it. ROFL. You(devs) want me to patch samba to fix the broken gnome-vfs- ha ha haha ha. Don't even get me goin on gconf. Or the situation with gnome-volume-manager where someone posted a patch to turn off the desktop icons for mounted drives-which was turned down by one of the devs because it didn't suit his notion of usability- previously this functionality had been hardcoded in Nautilus with a WONTFIX bug sitting in bugzilla for over 3 years. I can't tell you how much fun it was trying to disable this functionality-and I shouldn´t have to explain to anyone that as a an administrator I MUST BE ABLE TO TURN OFF DESKTOP ICONS FOR MOUNTED DRIVES.
My solution? I recompiled the GNOME desktop without hal/dbus support, ie. because I was not given the tools to properly administer this feature I was forced to withdraw support for all things hal and dbus enabled. (why oh whay is my /etc/fstab being constantly rewritten ?) Now Nautilus launches executables files not unlike Windows Explorer- for some GNOME devs this appears to be a step towards usability- but for sys admins like me who really appreciate the *difference* between Linux and Windows this is a major step backwards. Can we sys admins have an option to turn this *feature* off ?
But slowly but surely the situation is improving. GNOME 2.8 and 2.10 are primarily bug-fix releases. Sabayon is exteremely promising-and I am really looking forward to seeing it mature. I won't be updating our desktop to 2.10 for several months because I need that time to come to terms with all of the undocumented changes- time to compile some vague comprehension of these changes from the vast and asundry mailing list/bugzilla/blogs about functionality changes.
As usual I am caught in a netherworld between users and developers. I try not to get to frustrated and try not to laugh to much when I see how clueless most of the software devs are in dealing with administration issues-most of those blogging at planet.gnome would be lost having to deal with the issues which I deal with everyday. Personally I would love it if some of the devs actually spent some time working with GNOME in administrative settings- ie. set up an LTSP server and serve out GNOME desktops and then *see* what the problems with gnome-vfs are, or why Natuilus can't stat() freespace on local-dev samba shares correctly. But if I sound like I am complaing to much about GNOME- at least GNOME provides some documentation as opposed to the LTSP project which defies description.
I don't end up filing bug reports very often. I don't have the time. When the GNOME devs do something that breaks something I end up having to fix it. There are probably more GNOME users in thin-client situations than there are home users of GNOME. I belong to small voiceless army of thousands of sys admins working on trying to make GNOME *the* desktop for users. Perhaps one day we will see a gnome-admins mailing list which specifically address the issues that I and others like me have.
Finally a little note: if GNOME provides us sys admins with proper tools for administration chances are these tools can appeal to 'power-users' which have been sidelined in the 2.x GNOME development. The 'users' in GNOME's 'user-centric' model of development are the absolutely clueless 'users' who don't even know what a file manager is. The lack of 'power-user' features is really only a symptom of the lack of proper administrative tools. If the GNOME devs want to make things easier for their users please focus a little on the ones who will be providing these users with GNOME.
...as it did. I would have thought anyone who hangs out at OSNews would have known Eugenia's style by now... she does this all the time. I know, for example, how much she likes the BeOS, yet she takes lots of opportunities to be harsh about driver support and future development, etc... and I do believe it is to spur on Haiku (as an example).
It is very nice that everyone has kissed and made up. GNOME is an awesome project and I would not use Linux without it.
I would agree with you except for the fact that many developers appear openly hostile to users. The "stop bothering me and learn to code" retort is common and one that I certainly see as hostile. It's also common to see a developer assert that F/OSS is intended only for developers. Of course, there's always the tendency to tell the users they're wrong, especially when they don't behave the way the interface guideline du jour says they should.
I realize that those sentiments can't be applied universally. But, I've been using F/OSS products for 10 years and certainly feel that, on the whole, it has become increasingly resistant to user input. (In part, I suspect, because of the increasing politicization of F/OSS. Many developers seem to be primarily focused on bringing down Evil Corporations.)
You know I rarely agree completely with you editorials, but I always enjoy reading them. Just because you are headstrong and opinionated, like many of us geeks out there, doesn't mean your articles are somehow less valid than others' work.
Misunderstandings aside, this whole situation highlighted at the very least a communication problem and some raw nerves in the gnome project. But it's good to see the situation has calmed down.
As both a gnome user and regular osnews reader, I look forward to seeing more of your contributions in both.
I also sad some things that may have hurt you - maybe I was a bit ignorant.
I had to deal with the same accusations once, too, here on osnews and I know how it can destroy your self-confidence, so maybe I should've known what I was doing. However, I guess as soon as you start to do something that many people get to know about you will eventually get accused of things you never really thought about this way. Even if you _really_ just wanted to do something good and never intended to hurt anybody you will hear the strangest accusations.
However, I think most of us learned something out of this and it's past now (or soon will be). Just keep going your way and do what you think is the right thing to do. Don't let the jerks make fun of you and destroy your visions for there will be always something that can hurt you. You're too famous and honest to always be treated right.
When will GNOME apologize for not even reviewing 20% of patches?
some people should start seeing this whole desktop thingy more rational. seriously most of this stuff isnt really worth all this raving about.
Not only is it cheap publicity but its damaging to Gnome and Linux in that it's causing a division between users and the community.
People new to Linux do not need to read this. Eugenia please remove this for the sake of the whole community.
just for curiosities sake, why not patch samba(if you took the time to recompile gnome)? why are drive icons on the desktop not a good idea? does nautilus launch stuff without +x? do you use one of the "corporate" distros?(novell, jds, rhel, etc)
not being sarcastic, i just wanna get a better idea of where your comming from.
as for the whole developer/admin thing, its pretty much universal. we both think that we have the hard job, and the guys on the other side have it easy. honestly though, gnome sounds like a pain to support. its amazing that the dm most supported and deployed at corporations with big networks would be such a pain to admin.
@Johnathan Bailes
By QuantumG (IP: ---.lo1.lns1.server-access.com) - Posted on 2005-03-16 06:10:58
So why don't you contact your commercial Linux supplier and request them to make the menu editor a priority. As their customer they will listen to you. If not, go to another commercial Linux supplier.
1. I do not typically use a commercial linux at home. I use Ubuntu and I am a test user for RH's future in other words I also use Fedora.
2. I have mentioned this to a Sun rep before since I do use Gnome on Solaris and gotten the response that they did not plan on shipping a version of gnome without this functionality themselves but could not guarntee what community sites like blastwave.org would do.
Besides menu editing is coming in gnome 2.12. The fact the feature needs coding now was not the point. The point was that gnome had no overwhelming need to change the menu system until they had that part of the puzzle finished.
Also, just because I am frustrated by the some of the responses I saw in that thread from developers and the fact a good idea (getting more user input) went down the toilet of a long flaming thread, does NOT mean that I do not appreciate the work of OSS projects.
Just two days or so ago, I sent a kudos thank you letter to the rhythmbox people. I am using the main branch of their upcoming release of Rhythmbox compiled from the Arch tla archives and it rocks with the CD burning and the tag editing integrated soooo very nicely into the interface.
Many many times on win32 I have wanted to make an app that lets the user choose the directory where files will be saved. Using GTK this has never been a problem. But now both win32 and GTK have this annoying feature that you can't select a directory in the file chooser.
The Gtk filechooser has a mode for chosing directories.
Karl, I know where you are comming from.
I've been twiddling and recompiling gnome too and I am really starting to miss the good old fvwm days.
It is not that I disslike gnome (I use it at home and I love it), but it is hard to turn into a well behaved beast.
The mount icons on the desktop turns into a horrid clutter once the mounts exceed ten. I, for one, like my and my users desktop as clean as possible.
You voiced your opinion, some people didn't like it. Guess what? That's what's creates diversity. That's why we *have* opinions.
Gnome has a website, if they want to spout off about their favorite brand of hamster shampoo, that's their right.
This is your forum, use it as you wish. Just keep in the back of your mind, that the asshats who post here are only voicing their opinion, too.
Oh, yeah, and what the hell is up with that USB malloc() bug?
Linux users want webcams, too!
Chuck-
I've just read the modded down comments for this thread and they made me Laugh Out Loud! Is there an archive so one can have a chuckle at the marvellous polemics?!
Don't need to apologize. Those GNOME prima donnas have been years behind schedule. Besides, they don't even look at 20% of the patches people send to them.
Please, READ the header of the table. 20% is the percentage of ******UNREVIEWED******* patches, so the patches reviewed are 80%.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/patch-diligence-report.cgi
what would be OSS if directed by only one big boss
what would be OSS without review, debate, criticism
what would be OSS without free expression
what would be OSS without questionning
what would be OSS without remise en question
what would be OSS without fork, and evolution
All of you know the response. Some of you are afraid by the power of OSS. Don't be.
Don't know about GTK, but for win32 check this out:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/sh...
" I would like to apologize for any damage I might have done to the project."
Criticism against Integrism
By Robert (IP: 217.167.123.---) - Posted on 2005-03-16 15:11:19
...
what would be OSS without review, debate, criticism
what would be OSS without free expression
what would be OSS without questionning
...
All of you know the response. Some of you are afraid by the power of OSS. Don't be.
Gosh, some of us see some FOSS projects preferring the three things above with some of the elitist attitudes of once again a small minority of the developers responding to Eugenia.
I am NOT afraid of OSS and prefer it. Right now I am sitting at work hopping boxes and setting user creds on Ubuntu with gnome 2.10. Keeping notes with Tomboy and IM'ing with gaim or listening to music with Rhythmbox or writing my AAR's with Abiword and finally keeping up with mail using Evolution connected up to the corporate Exchange server.
I use gnome and linux for my work desktop to get real work done. Period.
That does not mean that I am not frustrated by some of the attitudes revlealed in that thread. It does not mean that I am blind to the disconnect between users or developers or even worse the antagonism. Just because I prefer the OSS method of development does not mean that I cannot see its faults especially in the difficult task of putting together a project so large it encompasses my entire desktop whether I work in Linux or Solaris.
The article greatly reduced my confidence in OSNews as a news source. I've seen a large amount of opinion based pieces that are grounded squarely in the whims of the author.
This isn't particularly bad, but does lead me to treat the site as it has become, an Opinion Editorial site. This simply requires me to come into the site with a higher degree of skepticism, much like I do with Slashdot.
What Eugine wrote was bad journalism, not uncommon in today's situation. A journalist should be truly objective, that article was not. It made inaccurate and unfair claims about the Gnome Project. Attempts to validate opinions with weak facts, including Web Based Polls. The article simply wasn't a good one.
If that is the intent of OSNews, then they can take their site down whatever path they wish. They have the right to print whatever they like on their website. But as they take their current road, they put their credibility at risk.
I'm just one reader,
Brandon
I'll try to answer your questions succinctly.
One should never have to patch applications which properly belong to the system- like the kernel, apache, or samba in order that something which is layered upon the system-ie. the gnome desktop, to function correctly. Requiring a patch for samba in order theat gnome-vfs functions correctly *means* supporting a fork of samba. An absolute no-no in my book.
As a user I love Nautilus drive icons on the desktop. But as an admin of a LTSP-based thin-client GNOME desktop I really hate it when all of my users suddenly see a clickable icon on their desktops that points to the backup partition that I just mounted. In a thin-client situation If I mount something on the server an icon for it appears instantly on all my users desktops. Absurd actually.
Actually GNOME is probably easy to support if your organization has thousands of users. In such a case you have at least a dozen people working on administering the desktops and probably have the man power to create custom schemas. It's as if administration facilities in GNOME were crafted for extremely large corporations/institutions. In much the same was as is the case with OpenOffice-sure you can create a 'resp' file that custom tailors how the OO install procedes. But you need to spend hours searching for this info, then hours reading the ~180 page file describing how to implement a resp file and however many hours testing until it actually works. Sure for Sun Microsystems, Inc. such functionality is a god send-but for lowly sys admin managing a media pool at the local university it is absolute overkill.
And no I don't use any commerical supported distros- I am using Gentoo. I chose Gentoo because it makes precisely the kinds of things I routinely need to do much, much easier. I know the filesystem layout like the back of my hand and have wrote-memorized the syntax for probably 80 different config files. Gentoo sources are, with the exception of portage patches, identical to the source released from the various projects. By the time Redhat or SuSE get done with a package it has been custom-tailored to their needs-ie. what they deem their enterprise customers to need-and in so doing only they can support their changes. In my situation I am running a hybrid-functionality- the machine must function as a non-stop server and as a modern-desktop with the newest software-becuase what it serves *is* the desktop. Gentoo has allowed me to cut my own distro specific to my needs.
There is a new version of Knoppix out, 3.8, that now includes UnionFS on the Live CD.
Let's get back to talking about OS updates please.
Conflict IS the source of all change. Creating conflict starts debate...debate changes minds. Eugenia, you do occasionally irritate me, like when you called Linux enthusiasts "freeloaders", but do not apologize or shy away from conflict. If you think there is a shortcoming address it. You obviously have much influence in the OSS world to have caused such a stir, so use that influence for the betterment of free software. If it turns out that you are wrong...so be it...move on.
Theodore Roosevelt had something to say of small minded critics:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Replace man with woman and drive on with enthusiasm.
It seems that many of the commenters here would rather restrict our right to voice our opinions than deal with those opinions. They seem to have a religious devotion to F/OSS that compels them to see anyone who doesn't agree with them as the enemy.
I think most of the adults in the room understand that folks like that pose the greatest threat to F/OSS. Who in their right mind would want to associate with or trust their software to anything that nurtures such an abundance of slanderous, vulgar, loudmouthed, arrogant adolescents?
Don't think developers are responsible to their users? Fine, but do't expect users to hold back their opinion of those developers.
Eugenia's editorial was right on target. She deserves praise for running it and more praise for not trashing the personal insults that many of the children who post here seem to confuse with an appropriate response.
My opinion is that OSNews has now become a tabloid, selling the same stuff over and over again, bringing no real news, just living on controversy.
And as always My opinion will be moderated down or simply deleted.
You're correct. This site is so boring. Selling the same stuff over and over again. New version of Fedora, new version of KDE, new version of Linspire, new Intel chip technology, blah blah blah. Like weren't there new versions of all this stuff just a few months ago? How boring to talk about Operating Systems all the time! You'd think this was a site about Operating Systems or something.
And it's just controversy after controversy. I mean, before this Gnome developer thing, it was ... er ... umm. Someone in the comments saying that Macs suck because they only have one button mice? Oh, wait! A Mono vs Java pissing contest! Yes! Controversy!
eug, You stood up for the right reasons IMHO, with your brilliant editorial. msg to gnome dev's "Dont shoot the messenger. it might serve you well to listen instead of dismissing every critisism."
also someone rewite esound, quick!, while they are still busy fighting
Here's the part some of you are not understanding. This is bigger than a simple Gnome user controversy. These recent discussions have merely brought out some facts which seldom get consideration. If Eugenia was a helpless female, almost nobody would be on her case. If she was merely an assertive female, she would draw no more flak than anyone else. But the fact is, Eugenia can and does dish it out just as much as she gets it back. Her comments are often rude and insensitive to others feelings, thoughts, etc. With Eugenia, it's often not a matter of objective comments on an OS or app, it's "This sucks" or "This looks like ass". She's not above flaming people either, and anybody who's been here awhile has seen her do it. Then we get told she thinks in greek which is a harsh language as if that explains it. So, guess what? Eugenia's earned some bad feelings over time and calling those who disagree with her "assholes" in her (public) blog certainly doesn't help. IF this forum is to be that ugly, then so be it, and no apology is necessary. It's just the way it is here and those who don't like it don't have to be here, but expect the ugliness to be going in both directions. But there's also no need for all these people to rush to her defense. She's a big girl. She can take care of herself.
Go ahead, mod this one down too.
Good post... but indeed in vain... I was happy that my post didn't get modded down, and I thought it was because it was a reasonably mature one like yours, but nope... no luck . Well... we'll see how this is gonna end...
I am glad she wrote the article for a few reasons:
1) Its good to clear cobwebs sometimes and get a new beginning as based on this:
http://www.gnomejournal.org/article/5/experimental-culture
its clear things needed discussed at least ? ;-)
2) I've seen useability slip some in gnome albeit its still by far my favorite DM due to its KISS elegance at least for me.
3) I wuv Gnome/Gtk etal.
I am glad to see this discussion take place because I want to be part of a 'community' where even users have a definitive 'team' member role, which is something all of us can feel good about. I must admit to being highly offended and hurt that things like this might be going on because it chipped away at what I feel gnome/OSS means and it doesn't have to be so.
I want to reiterate that my noted URL mentions 'stodgy' , and in conjunction with Eugenia's editorial I'd like to think that coupled with healthy 'stodginess' we will see a very upbeat personal user relationship continue forward to serve us all effectively.
cheers
nl
------
Eugenia: "In conclusion, I think that even if we disagree, we should be able to disagree without making enemies of one another."
Oh you realised too late you have alienated a substantial part of your readership? That's bad. Especially as you site was already going down.
Good job!
Bye bye....
(go on moderate my opion, as always)
Eugenia, you were absolutely right to drag the voodoo coders from their caves and show them the bright light of day. They do not code in a vacuum [at least, I hope they don't], they write code for something that actual users are going to get their hands on. They had better wake up to the real world.
And political correctness is not something we need. It is a luxury this world cannot afford and actually it is a sick joke played on people in a deeply cynical, utterly ruthless world. "Don't give offense, don't hurt one another's feelings". That's why people are discarded in their thousands if the board wants to make sure the numbers look good. No more political correctness. When we regain the courage to call things for what they are, maybe more people will start to really listen and do something about the problems they perceive there to be.
You tell it like it is, but you give them an opportunity to respond. That's more than a lot of people can say. And it's a great web site to boot.
Sock it to them, girl!
Greek is a harsh language?
I'm about to find out. Starting "Medea" by Euripides this weekend. In English I'm afraid [I don't speak a word of Greek, I'm sad to say], but the translation should be very good.