posted by segedunum on Tue 30th Jun 2009 11:22
I've got myself into a company feasibility project right now where I'm looking at the possibility of putting Linux on the desktops of our Rails developers. If you've developed for Rails then you'll have probably come to realise that Windows simply isn't a great environment for it unless you run Cygwin and start plugging everything into it. Yes we could use Macs and we might well still do, but we have a bunch of existing laptops that are OK for us. To cut a long story short, don't buy ATI if you use Linux. They've had their chances. They have two pointlessly different open source drivers in radeonhd and ati that often leaves 3D non-functional on many chipsets and fglrx is a poorly coordinated piece of software that leaves things like Xv non-functional on many chipsets and has a habit of deprecating chipsets like the X1200 for no reason whatsoever.
Until we have confirmation that AMD have kicked their heads in avoid like the plague and use Intel, or nvidia.
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Member since:
2007-02-17
The open source projects are not ATI projects. They are open source projects to write drivers for ATI hardware.
fglrx is the only ATI Linux driver by ATI.
http://www.radeonhd.org/
The RadeonHD (xf86-video-radeonhd) driver is designed for the ATI "R500" Radeon X1000 series and newer graphics processors. The driver is open-source and written by Novell with specifications provided to the public by AMD. Currently this support does extend to the "R600" Radeon HD 2000/3800 series. While the driver supports RandR 1.2 and other basic functionality, it is very much a work in progress. The RadeonHD driver was publicly announced in September of 2007.
For more information on the current status of the RadeonHD driver, check out the Phoronix coverage.
The open-source Radeon driver supports earlier ATI graphics processors including the R100, R200, R300, and R400 series. There is also initial work for the R500 and R600 series support.
For more information on the current status of the RadeonHD driver, check out the Phoronix coverage.
The open-source Radeon driver supports earlier ATI graphics processors including the R100, R200, R300, and R400 series. There is also initial work for the R500 and R600 series support.
The earlier ATI graphics processors have full working 3D support in the Radeon driver. Support for the later chips R600 and R700 is only experimental in this driver.
The RadeonHD driver is aimed at the later chips, R600 and R700, which have an entirely different architecture, and 3D support is not yet available for those, as ATI only released the documentation a month or so ago. 2D acceleration and accelerated video are supported, however.
However, progress is promising, and a full driver, capable of supporting 2D, 3D and accelerated video is not too far away. Recently KMS support for ATI chips has been added to the Linux kernel, and a new advanced graphics memory manager has been written. One might hope for a fully working and capable open source driver (possibly coming from these two projects merged) to be available later this year.
Meanwhile, the fglrx driver has recently dropped support for the older architecture cards, R500 or older. This is no different from the nvidia driver, where an exactly similar thing happened.
The proprietary nvidia Linux driver has had atrocious 2D performance (a decelerator really) for well over two years, and is only now being addressed. Don't buy nvidia if KDE4 is in your plans, because KDE4 relies on working hardware accelerated 2D graphics, and many nvidia cards cannot supply that at all in Linux (although 3D is OK).
Member since:2005-07-06
You know what cheeses me off about desktop Linux? The excuses. It's black or it's white. Works or doesn't.
The open source projects are not ATI projects. They are open source projects to write drivers for ATI hardware.
Poor, poor excuse. We have the ati driver, and for reasons I cannot fathom we also have radeonhd which is a collaboration between Novell and ATI.
It is up to ATI to get the required level of support in place for their graphics cards and ensure that all of them can be supported in one place in a unified way otherwise it is a no-go. Whether that's a set of open source drivers in one place that support all the chipsets and features available like Intel, or a binary driver that does the same thing from nvidia, that's what's needed.
The earlier ATI graphics processors have full working 3D support in the Radeon driver. Support for the later chips R600 and R700 is only experimental in this driver.
So it doesn't work? If you're in a position where these drivers don't work for you and support has been dropped from fglrx like some laptop IGPs then you're screwed basically.
I want one collection of driver(s) in one place that supports the features of the chipsets I've paid for. I don't want to hear "Oh, this driver supports it but it is 2D only, this driver has experimental support only and the binary driver has 3D support but cocks up accelerated video".
Meanwhile, the fglrx driver has recently dropped support for the older architecture cards, R500 or older. This is no different from the nvidia driver, where an exactly similar thing happened.
nvidia has support going back far further than fglrx does, which drops support for chipsets that have often been in use for only a few months where presumably they expect to just throw you into the arms of the inadequate open source drivers. nvidia's support for many chipsets goes back years.
The proprietary nvidia Linux driver has had atrocious 2D performance (a decelerator really) for well over two years...
Pick your poison. The point still stands and can't be invalidated by trying to compare with something else. nvidia's 2D at least seems to actually work, they have working 3D support and their accelerated video definitely works. You're going to have to jump between ati, radeonhd and fglrx before you have any clue where you are with ATI.
Not good enough.
Member since:
2005-08-11
Nice post, except entirely devoid of research. I think you may want to get somebody else to do your feasibility study, as ATI is only responsible for releasing documentation and the fglrx closed source driver. The radeon and RadeonHD drivers are OSS, and not written by ATI.
The fglrx driver works quite well, IMHO, though it's a blob, so it's questionable from a GPL standpoint.
Nice bit of trolling though.
RE: Comment by BluenoseJake
by segedunum on Tue 30th Jun 2009 13:27
in reply to "Comment by BluenoseJake"
Member since:2005-07-06
I'm not interested in research. I'm interested in what works NOW via ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. Throwing documentation at two different drivers that seem to have differing levels of functionality on different chipsets helps no one. Trying to shift blame from ATI is simply laughable because it's up to them to get the required level of support up to scratch for their own products and work out what it is that they're doing. ATI is not just responsible for releasing documentation.
The fglrx driver works quite well, IMHO, though it's a blob, so it's questionable from a GPL standpoint.
Am I speaking Swahili or something, or did you not read what was written?
The fglrx drivers has serious issues. As I'd said, it has serious issues with accelerated video (i.e. it's not there) on many chipsets, particularly integrated ones, and has a very, very poor level of compatibility with older chipsets (the X1200 in many laptops has gone) and it's virtually impossible to then know what to use to get the required level of support. In addition, it's updated on a very, very ad-hoc basis. Jaunty Jackalope had to wait months before they got an updated driver. Not to mention the regressions.
nvidia has a clear idea of how to support their graphics chipsets, they have one binary driver if you want everything to work and they put in the required level of support and commitment to get it working. Intel has gone purely down the open source route so that if you install a recent distribution it all magically works. ATI need to decide what on Earth it is that they're doing.
Try doing the research and actually USE what you're defending before trolling, eh?
ATI open source drivers are almost here
by lemur2 on Tue 30th Jun 2009 13:39
in reply to "RE: Comment by BluenoseJake"
Member since:2007-02-17
In fact, they are here for video and 2D (read: desktop use) graphics acceleration.
Not ready for 3D yet (read: games) but you SAID you were looking at it for rails development, did you not? 3D shouldn't be an issue then.
Here you go: Siddux.
Kernel 2.6.30
KDE 4.2.4
Pure Debian.
No Mono.
ATI drivers up to r780.
http://sidux.com/Article516.html
Please note this is not the final release, the full featured final release of "Αιθήρ" will be ready in about 1-2 weeks, further previews might be provided as needed until then.
sidux is a full featured Debian sid based live CD with a special focus on hard disk installations, a clean upgrade path within sid and additional hard- and software support. The ISO is completely based on Debian sid, enriched and stabilized with sidux' own packages and scripts.
Release notes for Αιθήρ (preview 1)
"Αιθήρ" mostly concentrates on integrating KDE4 into sidux and implementing the changes caused by kernel 2.6.30. While KDE4 is certainly a work in progress, both upstream and in terms of making it viable for a release, this marks the first milestone release for sidux. Be aware that the KDE-lite flavours avoid KDE3/ qt3 packages, which means that k3b, kaffeine and umtsmon are not preinstalled. These packages will be part of the KDE-full flavours and are still installable.
Kernel 2.6.30 doesn't only improve and stabilise hardware support for newer devices, it also further adapts the I/O scheduler support to improve prioritisation of disk accesses and to speed these up, also the kernel- and module initialisation process has seen further performance improvements.
Another hot topic has been ext3 performance and ext4 stability. While ext4 still has to be considered a new filesystem, which should still mature a bit before it can be relied upon in production systems, it is progressing quickly. For these reasons, we recommend against using ext4 for the time being.
Starting with kernel 2.6.30, new wlan drivers for Atheros ar9170usb, Atmel at76c50x-usb and Intel iwl1000, iwl6000 and iwl6050 devices have entered the stage and access point mode (nl80211) finally gets available for many mac80211 based wlan chipsets (in combination with hostapd).
Further areas of improvements are webcam- and DVB support just as well as finally bringing 2d acceleration for ATi radeon chipsets up to r780 (textured Xv).
...
Since "Πόντος", sidux is using "insserv" to reorder and optimise the sysv initscripts used during the system boot, this doesn't only improve the boot times, but also allows easier de-/ activating of particular initscripts using standard tools. Further efforts have gone into improving this setup and to fix a few minor bugs in regards to it.
As usual, a large number of individual functionality enhancements and bugfixes have been applied to the full package line up and sidux' own packages, in order to improve the general distribution infrastructure.
sidux is a full featured Debian sid based live CD with a special focus on hard disk installations, a clean upgrade path within sid and additional hard- and software support. The ISO is completely based on Debian sid, enriched and stabilized with sidux' own packages and scripts.
Release notes for Αιθήρ (preview 1)
"Αιθήρ" mostly concentrates on integrating KDE4 into sidux and implementing the changes caused by kernel 2.6.30. While KDE4 is certainly a work in progress, both upstream and in terms of making it viable for a release, this marks the first milestone release for sidux. Be aware that the KDE-lite flavours avoid KDE3/ qt3 packages, which means that k3b, kaffeine and umtsmon are not preinstalled. These packages will be part of the KDE-full flavours and are still installable.
Kernel 2.6.30 doesn't only improve and stabilise hardware support for newer devices, it also further adapts the I/O scheduler support to improve prioritisation of disk accesses and to speed these up, also the kernel- and module initialisation process has seen further performance improvements.
Another hot topic has been ext3 performance and ext4 stability. While ext4 still has to be considered a new filesystem, which should still mature a bit before it can be relied upon in production systems, it is progressing quickly. For these reasons, we recommend against using ext4 for the time being.
Starting with kernel 2.6.30, new wlan drivers for Atheros ar9170usb, Atmel at76c50x-usb and Intel iwl1000, iwl6000 and iwl6050 devices have entered the stage and access point mode (nl80211) finally gets available for many mac80211 based wlan chipsets (in combination with hostapd).
Further areas of improvements are webcam- and DVB support just as well as finally bringing 2d acceleration for ATi radeon chipsets up to r780 (textured Xv).
...
Since "Πόντος", sidux is using "insserv" to reorder and optimise the sysv initscripts used during the system boot, this doesn't only improve the boot times, but also allows easier de-/ activating of particular initscripts using standard tools. Further efforts have gone into improving this setup and to fix a few minor bugs in regards to it.
As usual, a large number of individual functionality enhancements and bugfixes have been applied to the full package line up and sidux' own packages, in order to improve the general distribution infrastructure.
My bold.
This is not what you are after (not stable enough) but it does show the state of play and the coming of working open source graphics drivers for ATI cards.
In a few months time, ATI cards will be by FAR the best performing graphics cards using open source drivers for Linux.
By the end of the year, all of this will be in the Linux kernel, by default, with no need to install a new proprietary binary blob after every kernel update.
Member since:
2005-07-06
Much hate will float my way for this - AMD has released the specifications; this is the deal that Linux and opensource advocates said, "give us the specifications and we'll sort the rest out". AMD's main focus is on Windows, and it is up to the distributors and open source developers to bring support on their respective platform.
At the end of the day, Linux is 'work in progress' so before you jump onto the Linux bandwagon you have to ask yourself, "am I happy using something that is 'work in progress'?".
You are right, the end user shouldn't care whose fault it is, there is a fault and needs to be resolved; Linux distributors have made it absolutely clear that they're unwilling to allocate the resources to fix up the hardware support issues nor are they willing to dedicate at least a programmer from each of the five main distributors to finishing Radeon support.
Personally I think you'd be better off going for Windows Vista Enterprise or waiting for Windows 7 Professional, and using the UNIX Subsystem which is pretty damn good when it comes to UNIXness.
Regarding some of the bile and vitriol thrown at you for purchasing and expecting support; I don't think it is unreasonable to expect hardware to be supported given that in their own documentation stating that the hardware should be supported. The one thing I have learned by getting burnt in the past is never trust open source documentation.
Member since:2007-02-17
AMD has released the specifications; this is the deal that Linux and opensource advocates said, "give us the specifications and we'll sort the rest out".
While that is true, it is also pertinent to point out that those specifications for R600 and later ATI cards were released by ATI only a couple of months ago.
It does take at least a couple of months to re-write drivers from new information after it is provided. That is exactly what is happening.
The new open source ATI drivers, re-written after release of the specifications, are only just becoming available now. It is pretty remarkable actually that it has been that quick. The open source community has been very quick indeed (once they had the specifications) to support these devices.
So, there is no fault at all here. Just a bit of impatience on the part of some people, it would seem.
Member since:2005-07-06
So, there is no fault at all here. Just a bit of impatience on the part of some people, it would seem.
Impatience? what a load of horse crap:
http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/
Some of the specifications for rudimentary 2D support have been out for almost a year. All the original author of the conversation wanted was basic rudimentary 2D support that was reliable - something that could have been achieved months ago.
How many people are also working on these drivers - 1 maybe 2 people? why aren't Red Hat, Novell, Ubuntu and Mandriva donating 2 engineers each to get the drivers up and running? 6 engineers sleeping, eating and breathing Radeon driver specifications should result in a stable and reliable driver within at least 6 months.
Btw, the difference between each version isn't massively large to the point that each release needs to be completely written from scratch; much of the devices build upon the last and simply need some additional lines of code for the differences. People don't expect perfection but the specifications are given and it is the distributors who take cash from customers but aren't allocating the man power to address the issues.
Member since:2007-02-17
Some of the specifications for rudimentary 2D support have been out for almost a year.
Au contraire, your own link shows that the earliest document for R6xx or R7xx was Jan 2009, and even that was only a register map, and the R6xx_R7xx_3D document was not released until May 2009.
That isn't a year, sonny Jim.
Please note that for Radeon chips, R5xx documentation and earlier is of no help for R6xx or later. ATI completely changed the architecture.
Note also that 3D support for R5xx and earlier ATI chips has been available in open source Linux drivers for quite some years now, even without having had any documentation from ATI.
Member since:2007-02-17
"Some of the specifications for rudimentary 2D support have been out for almost a year.
Au contraire, your own link shows that the earliest document for R6xx or R7xx was Jan 2009, and even that was only a register map, and the R6xx_R7xx_3D document was not released until May 2009. "
Here you go, (independent) confirmation of the state of play:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzM2Mw
Open-Source ATI R600/700 3D Driver Almost Working
AMD's John Bridgman has shared that the open-source R600/700 3D driver for Linux is becoming usable, slowly but surely. Months after releasing documentation, a programmer's guide, and sample code, their Mesa driver is beginning to do useful things -- more so than just rendering simple triangles.
The ATI R600/700 3D driver is derived from the Radeon driver rewrite and is currently living in a branch off of Mesa. DRM code that is also not living in the mainline code-base is also required for any level of 3D support. Bridgman shares on his blog that now approximately 25% of their test cases are passing, but the remaining majority are either crashing or rendering incorrectly.
With not even yet reaching the glxgears milestone, this 3D driver is currently not too useful for owners of the ATI Radeon HD 2000/3000/4000 series hardware. However, hopefully by the end of summer it will in good standing and usable.
Member since:2007-02-17
"Some of the specifications for rudimentary 2D support have been out for almost a year.
Au contraire, your own link shows that the earliest document for R6xx or R7xx was Jan 2009, and even that was only a register map, and the R6xx_R7xx_3D document was not released until May 2009. "
Here you go, (independent) confirmation of the state of play:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzM2Mw
Open-Source ATI R600/700 3D Driver Almost Working
AMD's John Bridgman has shared that the open-source R600/700 3D driver for Linux is becoming usable, slowly but surely. Months after releasing documentation, a programmer's guide, and sample code, their Mesa driver is beginning to do useful things -- more so than just rendering simple triangles.
The ATI R600/700 3D driver is derived from the Radeon driver rewrite and is currently living in a branch off of Mesa. DRM code that is also not living in the mainline code-base is also required for any level of 3D support. Bridgman shares on his blog that now approximately 25% of their test cases are passing, but the remaining majority are either crashing or rendering incorrectly.
With not even yet reaching the glxgears milestone, this 3D driver is currently not too useful for owners of the ATI Radeon HD 2000/3000/4000 series hardware. However, hopefully by the end of summer it will in good standing and usable.
Member since:2007-03-26
At the end of the day, Linux is 'work in progress' so before you jump onto the Linux bandwagon you have to ask yourself, "am I happy using something that is 'work in progress'?".
Every OS is "work in progress" as new hardware is constantly being released and security holes are constantly discovered.
Plus, it's not as if Windows and OS X don't have their own set of bugs that end up getting fixed post the OS release date.
Member since:2005-07-06
" At the end of the day, Linux is 'work in progress' so before you jump onto the Linux bandwagon you have to ask yourself, "am I happy using something that is 'work in progress'?".
Every OS is "work in progress" as new hardware is constantly being released and security holes are constantly discovered.
Plus, it's not as if Windows and OS X don't have their own set of bugs that end up getting fixed post the OS release date. "
Show me a release of Mac OS X which doesn't support the current shipping hardware.
RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Laurence on Fri 3rd Jul 2009 18:38
in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Member since:2007-03-26
Show me a release of Mac OS X which doesn't support the current shipping hardware.
Obviously OS X will support all the hardware on the device it's shipped with (given the hardware is hand picked by Apple), but there's heaps of hardware OS X doesn't support (and plenty more it does but not "out of the box"). Heaps of sound-cards, TV tuners and the lark. Plus, there's no way you'd expect any OS (inc OS X) to support any devices (internal or external) if they were released after the OS was!
To argue that OS X supports everything - old and yet to be released - is absolute madness.
Member since:2005-07-06
"
Show me a release of Mac OS X which doesn't support the current shipping hardware.
Show me a release of Mac OS X which doesn't support the current shipping hardware.
Obviously OS X will support all the hardware on the device it's shipped with (given the hardware is hand picked by Apple)... "
I cut you there because all the rest of what you said is a load of horse shit.
You stated that all operating systems are 'works in progress' and yet you ignore the context. The context is that Linux hasn't even got the fundamentals addressed! Yes, all software is in 'progress' but some already have the fundamentals covered and are merely building upon that. Linux doesn't even have the fundamentals - look at HAL for example, its a f--king disgrace, then there is pulse audio, gstreamer, the fiasco over the poor quality of wireless drivers (ath5k and data corruption).
Member since:
2005-06-30
Dear segedunum,
It seems you have not actually stated what is wrong with the current situation. What _specific_ problem are you facing? Your post talks about 3D and Xv, but later somewhere it evolves into "basic rudimentary 2D" problems. It is not really understood how you would need anything more than 2D acceleration in your rails project.
Moreover, if you are only needing 2D, there is no confusion whatsoever. Just the ati open source driver (as opposed to the radeonhd) is enough for you. The only possible problem is if you required 3D support, for which we can only say that your requirement unreasonable.
Why is the requirement unreasonable? It is because, instead of complete lack of documentation and needing to reverse-engineer (which is simply too damn hard), we have progressed so much as to have almost complete documentation from the source. Just 2 years ago we would not have such a "luxury". And given that we only had 1 year to write the drivers (compared to years of effort in commercial ones), what we have is already paradise. Asking for perfect drivers in such a short period of time is completely unreasonable.
Which brings us to the next point. Have you even tried the current situation, or are you just plain being nasty? I have not heard of any problems with 2D and ATI for a remarkably long time now, and loads of it from Intel and nVidia. It seems to me that the situation, due to the released documentation, has reversed and people are encouraging ATI now. My own personal experience (this is typed on an ATI) is stellar and has been stellar for quite some time now. Should you give it another try before you complain? I am on Fedora, Ubuntu, openSuse, debian, slackware and so on and they have all been fine in 2D. And since I have made my point that expecting 3D support is unreasonable, this is the best it can be.
Hence, please state the problem so that it can be reproduced. In fact, I even know that the chipsets dropped by fglrx are dropped because open source drivers are working better for them. Which is remarkable -- the vendor themselves, given so much headstart, had trouble with their own products, while open source drivers, with so much handicap, is doing better. If this situation is still not satisfying you, I would say that this shows more about you than the situation.
I hope that was not including excuses. Trying to get _any_ OS to support stuff that are so new as to be out of the coding cycle does not warrant an excuse.
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