http://www.osnews.com/story/10195/Linspire_and_the_Insider_Program Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:46:53 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Serious question here Eugina: Is Linspire an OSNews sponsor? significant space appears to be alotted for them. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...but figured I had nothing to 'lose' since... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? no, they are not a sponsor, we have no "sponsors" of that kind at all. We just receive these articles from our readers. If you want more variety, feel free to write an article, and we will publish it. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...at least this isn't a review... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? However, it does sound like Linspire is using the insiders for market research, which is generally something people either do for free or sometimes even get paid for, but that Linspire actually charges you for this is amazing since it is to benefit their product. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ... but I guess at least it's a nice marketing story... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This looks like a really badly written "Linspire insider" advertisement Cmon Osnews can do better than that. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm sorry but I still don't get it. If I understand correctly, for $99 you get :

- the right to beta test a product (which will be buggy and use up your time)
- you are required to give feedback, therefore use *your* time again
- Linspire will listen to your requests. Does this mean they don't listen to their other paying customers requests ? Are the people that pay the full price for CNR & Lindows ignored ?

It seems to me like this is a complete rip-off, where Linspire gets ALL the advantages. Actually, this sounds like a clever marketing ploy. Sorta-like a "club" membership, but instead of getting more value you get more trouble. If at least it meant you got free support or something like that then I could see the value, but here it seems that the price is there only to limit the number of participants. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i dont see whats the big issue with the insider program. Apple and MS have similar paid programs for betatesting, right? Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Linspire is no different from other company. Its only free within the 15 days trial. I got screwed into by paying for it two days after the trial from my credit card statesment! Linspire by DEFAULT will charge you unless you tell them otherwise. They don't mention it when you sign up. You have to login an dig around in the website to find the option not to charge you aftert he trial. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Linspire by DEFAULT will charge you unless you tell them otherwise."

If you need to provide a credit card number to participate in a free trial, what other logical conclusion is there other than they'll start charging you once the trial period ends?

In other words, why would they want your credit card number other than to get at your money? Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I thought the article was very well written and fair to boot. It's nice to get an idea of what the Insiders Program has to offer, both good and bad. I get the idea that Insiders are people who believe in Linspire and believe in Linux so that's why they spend $99 to be part of this program. The Insiders don't mind spending their time working on beta software and testing the OS if it means they can make a difference. I can understand how this program can APPEAR to be a little shifty but I don't think it is. I love Linspire 5 and it's my OS of choice (has been since early 4.5). I've used Fedora, Mandrake, Lycoris, Xandros, Ubuntu, Knoppix, as well as many others but Linspire is the distro I kept coming back to. It just works for me.

Thanks for the info on the Insiders Program and thanks to Linspire for putting out a great product. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? - the right to beta test a product (which will be buggy and use up your time)

Beta Testing is not for everyone!

- you are required to give feedback, therefore use *your* time again

Your not required, but why sign up and not provide feedback?

- Does this mean they don't listen to their other paying customers requests ? Are the people that pay the full price for CNR & Lindows ignored ?

Did I say that? You must stop reading into things. Linspire offers some of the best support available in Linux. Unless you used it you would not know!

- It seems to me like this is a complete rip-off, where Linspire gets ALL the advantages.

Again if that's how you feel don't sign up. It's not for everyone. Your entitled to your opinion and beliefs, but don't blow things out of proportion if you have no idea what your talking about. It's not about mine is better than yours, it's about what fits your needs. That's why we have choice in Linux. Do you have choice in Windows or Mac? Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=293&sli... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? alot of ppl are critical of linspire(lindows) although i don't use it, it really has done alot for the linux community as a whole. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Thanks for the "inside" look to Linspire's Insiders program.

As President of Linspire, I'd like to add one thing...

The main reason we charge for our Insider's program (we have around 15,000 Insiders), is that we don't want just anyone being an Insider. We want those who will really get involved and be part of our team. We actually give lots of perks, discounts, free services, etc. to our Insiders, which more than makes up for the cost, but we WANT a small barrier to entry for our Insiders program to keep it exclusive to those who really want to join us and help.

As for the rate of new products, services and announcements, if you visit http://www.linspire.com/lindows_news_pressreleases_archives.php you'll see Linspire moves quickly and does more announcements than just about any Linux company. Our Insiders are involved in many of these activities.

We're thrilled with our dedicated Insiders. As pointed out, we have a money back guarantee on everything we sell, so it's not like we're forcing people to participate in this program. We find it to be a true win/win arrangement.

Linspire wouldn't be the company it is, nor have nearly as good of products, if it were not for our dedicated Insiders.

Kevin Carmony
President, Linspire, Inc. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Xandros blows it out of the water. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Again, it's not about my Distro is better than yours. Use what fit's your need. It's comments like this that make the Community look bad at times. I just don't understand! Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @Dukes:

"Xandros blows it out of the water."

Xandros is a very nice distribution. I like it too.

What's great is that there are room for people to like Linspire, Xandros, Mandrake, MEPIS, Ubuntu, and others...

I like that Xandros is less cluttered and flashy than Linspire is.

I could use either Distribution in place of Windows right now. And I think that's good...

Linspire has more of a human face than Xandros does. I've NEVER seen a Xandros exec post in a thread about Xandros.

And what I like about Linspire and the company, is you KNOW they are reading the threads and taking the comments seriously, because as is shown above...

Kevin responds intelligently and honestly to the comments made.

That's worth my dollars. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? hey screw the gui all together... it is a resource hog...
bah... when are ppl going to learn, it is not about what 500 ppl want it is about what 500000 ppl want, but Linux is great because it can cater to the 500...
the distro wars must end for linux to make a stand EVER. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Sometimes (ads and marketing aside) the letters that Mr Robertson writes are really good, Most of them are worth reading.

Linspire is improving a lot on each release, I'm not an user myself as I use vanilla Debian (I use Linux only as a server) but if I had to buy a distro to use it on a desktop, I'll seriously consider Linspire. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I normally don't read articles from "Special Contributors", as they are usually not worth my time. I fell for this one, and I regret reading it - I think Linspire are trying to copy Microsoft's ad agency tactics. Harumph. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I swear if I have to read the word "insider" once more, I'm gona flip. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Money isn't allways proof of skill. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well I see a lot of people ripping on Linspire because they're cheap like me or they just can't concieve what they'd be paying for. But give the guy a break... He's talking about his personal experience with it.
I'd just like to point out just incase nobody else remembers, that the owner of Linspire (formally Lindows) wasn't just some Joe developer, and he wasn't just a regular Bill Gates either. In fact, you could say he's located somewhere right in between. He sold mp3.com to Cnet and picked up a nice chunk of cash (at least a million $ from what I remember) and decided to create a linux distro with that money. I'm sure he's taken a big hit in the wallet taking a chance like this so although many users don't agree with their business model, I believe they've got to make their money back some how, and attempting to provide a proper linux desktop distro for windows users to switch over should earn them a few bucks from the few who will actually need it. For the rest of us, we've got our hands full deciding from other linux distros are right for us. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Unfortunately (and it may not be intentional on the author's part so AIA) the article reads like an infomercial so for me was difficult to read. More of an appeal to my emotion than any real substance.

The underlying gist seems to be the author loves Linspire and the insider program. I'm happy for him that he enjoys it. I'm not so sure what this means to me.

Other than social interaction with fellow linspire enthusiasts what real benefits does one get for this money? Alerts to (some but not all) new features a day or so before they're released to the public? Possibly a chance to have a say in the direction of the product? Secret clubs? What is the value-add? Love of a for-profit distro?

Again, I'm not trying to knock Linspire. I just think the author could be a little more clear.

I have participated in commercial betas in the past and have usually been rewarded with a free or reduced priced copy of the product or service or some other $$$ incentive. I don't remember ever having to pay for the priviledge with no clear ROI.

For OSS sw everyone who uses it are the beta-testers (though not everyone provides feedback!).


E. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Money isn't allways proof of skill."
Wow, only on osnews can you read insightful comments like this...
Of course it isn't and nobody said it was, so what's your point? Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Money isn't allways proof of skill."
Wow, only on osnews can you read insightful comments like this...
Of course it isn't and nobody said it was, so what's your point?

I regret you have the impression that the're flat comments being made all the time on osnews.My point was and still is that i would rather see an entry level (for an "insider" program) that's higher than usual regulated by a slightly more difficult install which would most of the times assure to some extend that both motivated and "*skilled*" users are attracted. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Note : I am not a Fan of Linspire or Kevin Carmony.

Mr Carmony ,

I find it intriguing that your company is running at a loss and have been for so many years ( since its creation ) and that you still find the time to browse the news website.I think your time would be better spent analyzing the failure of your sales teams and of your products sales.

I also like to point out that your showing your incompetence by saying things like : "(we have around 15,000 Insiders)" , I find it really strange that a President of any company dont know the exact number of suscriber at a given date of any of there program.

I will point out that with 15 000 suscriber at 99$ each , you would bring in 1,5 milion ( rounded number ) of revenues which are beside the normal product sales , thats not chump changes , but I seriously doubt your numbers as they have been proven in the past to be innacurate and/or over exagerated to make your company look better. On a side note Linspire is based of San Diego wich is a city of 1,264,600 habitants ( http://www.sandiego.gov/publicmediaaffairs/facts/fast.shtml )

15k users out of a possibility of 1,2 million , in the same city ... you need to go to the nearest mall and show your product a bit ... Or distribute more free CD like AOL does ... and get income from CNR subscription , you might get a couple thousand , tens of thousand or hundred of thousand and maybe who knows millions of users and this year pull a profit.

Of course your not going to get everyone with a price entry worldwide of 99$ USD , 99$ USD might seem cheap for you but in some country its 1/2 there yearly salary.

In the other end your cutting yourself from some the best of the brightest who go on and work for the other distribution , this may not mean much to you but in reality , your going to have to face there idea and advancement that could have been yours in the futur , if you dont know the saying 2 head are better then one , you have never seen 10 thousand able body and minds vs 1 or 2 insider and developpers, there is not one real distribution who as not more paying users then yours, not going to even discuss free developper and free contributors.

" We actually give lots of perks, discounts, free services, etc. to our Insiders"

Strange that you fail to validate your comment with an actual example , but I think you have learned that most people would analyze your word for what they are and make comparaison with whats availaible from others, and that would make your offers and advantage look ridiculous.

" we WANT a small barrier to entry for our Insiders program to keep it exclusive to those who really want to join us and help. "

Actually what you whant to do is make a small profit from the sales of your development. If you where after getting the best and brightest and hardest working there would be a note beside the Linspire Insider BUY NOW saying : "we whant you , if you whant to participate but cant afford 99$ , press here and write us a short note what would be your contribution and why we would be interested to having you."

I have seen first hand , and many time and in many project, what it means to get the help from free developper , when 100 + people show up and come to your help and contribute , you have things like KDE that gets created.

"As for the rate of new products, services and announcements, if you visit http://www.linspire.com/lindows_news_pressreleases_archives.php you'll see Linspire moves quickly and does more announcements than just about any Linux company."

Lets see :

- Linspire Launches World's Easiest Desktop Linux, Linspire Five-0

- MP3beamer Makes Personal Music Catalog Available From Any Device

- New Products, Services and Software to be Featured at Desktop Linux and Open Source Conference

- Lphoto 2.0 Improves Photo Management on Desktop Linux with DVD and Flash Options

- AMD and RealNetworks Sign on as Key Sponsors At Premier Linux and Open Source Conference

- Wal-Mart breaks price barrier with $498 Linux laptop running Linspire

all I can see is your company make a lot of noise about nothings ... I am really sure you would not like me explaining what I mean by noise.

"we have a money back guarantee on everything we sell"

1) Interesting point you make , more on that below , too bad its not replacing one of your noise annoncement nobody cares about. Its a great sales argument, it could , ho , I dont know win you some sales from people who are afraid of trying your product ...

2) Its certainly not showing or advertised on the most important place :

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_storefront.php?own=no

3) Remember , I said "interesting" , that because I have the old habit to verify fact of people who in the past who have add there words and action proven wrong and false :

http://www.linspire.com/termsconditions.php

"All fees and charges are nonrefundable. Linspire will not provide refunds or credits for any partial subscription periods."

"Linspire wouldn't be the company it is, nor have nearly as good of products, if it were not for our dedicated Insiders. "

Linspire would not exist if it where not for GNU/Linux and the free developpers , your insiders have little to do with most of your products , yes some are among the brightest I have seen, but they cant compensate for people like you who dont do there jobs and who employ proven loosing strategy for GNU/Linux.

http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?sent=...

I must say I am really impressed by your Canadian Division , I bet it dont even exist at Linspire , 2 company , one dont even sale hardware and both dont sale your insider program. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Exactly. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @Moulinneuf

Thanks for a wordy and empty reply to Mr. Carmony.

My advice to you, is if you don't like Linspire, don't buy it.

Making up all that stuff you just did, doesn't create anything.

Thanks for your opinion, though... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Is OSNEWs now promoting Linspire? For a price? Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? > I think your time would be better spent analyzing the failure of your sales teams and of your products sales.

Most companies are setup with the knowledge that it will take 5 to 10 years to break even.

In addition, keep in mind that Linspire received about 20 million dollars as settlement with Microsoft to change their name from Lindows to Linspire. This is more money than they have spent upto now. This means that they 'are' profitable.

> I also like to point out that your showing your incompetence by saying things like : "(we have around 15,000 Insiders)" , I find it really strange that a President of any company dont know the exact number of suscriber at a given date of any of there program.

He is giving an approximate number, since there is no need for an exact number. Would you prefer 15, 345? Anyway it's not necessary.

> Of course your not going to get everyone with a price entry worldwide of 99$ USD , 99$ USD might seem cheap for you but in some country its 1/2 there yearly salary.

Linspire's comes installed on many low-cost systems. This systems are generally 50 to 100 dollars cheaper than equivalent systems that come with Windows.

> Linspire would not exist if it where not for GNU/Linux and the free developpers , your insiders have little to do with most of your products , yes some are among the brightest I have seen, but they cant compensate for people like you who dont do there jobs and who employ proven loosing strategy for GNU/Linux.

Linspire is one of the largest contributors to opensource.
see: http://info.linspire.com/opensource/

You are just a troll. You write a lot without having any knowledge about the company or what it does.

You don't like them, don't use Linspire, it's that simple. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I don't understand the venom against Kevin Carmony. I think it's good that a President of the company tracks his company and responds online.

Insiders do get benefits as Mr. Carmony referred to such as CNR membership, invites to special parties, tickets or discounts to Desktop Summit, free MP3beamer software, etc. I don't think he listed them out to make sure it didn't seem like a big advertisement.

Linspire is a HUGE open source contributor in money and code. They are investing millions if not tens of millions in making linux usable by mass market and getting stores to carry it. That's a good thing. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why the venomous diatribe? I find it astonishing that someone would object to the President of a company paying attention to what its customers think, and writing thoughtful, reasoned replies (which Kevin has done consistently, on many websites, for at least the last two years). This company really listens to feedback from its user base, and frankly it's not all that common to see that in this day and age.

Linspire 5.0 is an excellent O.S., appropriate for many users, but if it's not your cup of tea, DON"T BUY IT ! For me, it's the best O.S. investment I've made in years...... DR Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Hi Kevin - I hate to be competitive, but I notice 5 press releases for 2005 on the Linspire page you linked to, while on http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/prs we have 11. . No, seriously, good work on Linspire 5-0, it looks like a nice product and should help the whole Linux industry. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? and proud to be one too. I see people all the time spouting off about how Linspire is an evil company and they don't follow the GPL and even after being shown proof that these things are false the Linux community still gives them grief. I am not a typical Linspire user I have been running Linux for many years and have installed most distros and done Linux from scratch and many others but I love being able to install an OS and my apps that I typically use and just start working.

A couple of years ago I was one of those that thought Linspire was out to make a buck and only tried it so I could prove it to the world but you know what they showed me I was wrong they care about their customers and they give back to the community. Once again I'm an Insider and proud to be one.

John Pisini Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm not sure why linspire gets attacked so much i am new to linux and if it wasn't for linspier making it so easy to install i would still be useing windows and so would some of my friends.And yes i am an insider and when it comes to helping anyone i would like to but i am still trying to learn my self so i am not much help to anyone.Maybe one day because of linspier i might get there.So if anyone wants to make fun of this post its ok all i know if it wasn't for linspire i would be using windows still. I thought linux is linux and windows is windows isn't it better to see linux grow?
Thanks all. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm a happy insider too. I use both Mac (OS X 10.3.8) and LinSpire.

I find LinSpire to be a very _clean_ Linux distribution compared to Mandrake and others that give you multiple "brands" of same type of product. I don't need that. And I also really like CNR. Sure you can use app-get but I'm not anal about being in control. I just need to get things done without an OS or app getting in my way. Macs and LinSpire do that for me. And I've been a tech since 1979. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @ Al Hartman (IP: ---.phila.k12.pa.us)

Thks Mr Hartman , I have taken your advice into consideration and have rejected it , but thks for offering it.

Actually your right , my wanting to see Linspire stay alive is less constructive then say others thing I could do , but none the less I find it important to offer my diverging opinion. I do not make any stuff up. You just have to go and verify them by yourself and confirm your own opinion. My advise to you dont believe everything people say without verifying the facts.

Arpan (IP: ---.53.79.170.nettlinx.com)

Btw , Thks for your astroturfing.

"Most companies are setup with the knowledge that it will take 5 to 10 years to break even. "

Actualy 75% of the company setup dont make it up past the first year and of that remaining 25% only 5% pass the 5 years. Most company are setup with the interest to make a profit.Most fail due to bad management.

"keep in mind that Linspire received about 20 million dollars as settlement with Microsoft to change their name from Lindows to Linspire"

Keep in mind that even do Mr Robertson made millions with the sale of MP3.com he add to go and ask the community for a defence fund and that Lawyers in case like this all around the world are not cheap.

"This is more money than they have spent upto now."

Interesting :

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes_archives.php?id=162

"3 Years and $20 Million to Linspire Five-0!"

The cost of development for Five-0 is 20 millions , thats just R&D for one product ...

Before the setlement Mr Robertson add already invested over 10 millions personnaly into Linspire which Linspire owed Back to him ...

And seing the Add campaign Linspire is making it must not come cheap at all ... etc ...

"This is more money than they have spent upto now."

See above ..

"This means that they 'are' profitable. "

I tought ( its more I know ) that for a company to be profitable all the debts must be repaid in full and that all expense for this year are covered in the income and that then the income still as some money left ...

"He is giving an approximate number"

Why , He is Linspire President , he should know and say the exact number or dont mention it at all. Its called accountability of the management.

" since there is no need for an exact number."

Actually there is , He should know by now that we can add up and I am sure someone is going to go and add them up and compare the numbers.

"Would you prefer 15, 345"

If its the exact number , off course ... Accurate Fact instore trust into the minds of investors.

"Anyway it's not necessary."

Its with answers like that , that they failed there 3 previous IPO.

"Linspire's comes installed on many low-cost systems"

The insider version come installed on many low-cost systems ? Really ? Can you show me a direct example , I missed that one.

"This systems are generally 50 to 100 dollars cheaper than equivalent systems that come with Windows. "

Again , I missed the insider version one so I cant comment on those , I will assume only on this that you know something I dont and that you will provide a link to those cheaper insider version you speak of , If your thinking about the regular hardware offer with 4.5 pre-installed ( I failed to see any 5-0 offer yet ) , there not cheaper , they have cheaper parts , the only ones that have better hardware then Windows for cheaper is Apple , thats because they build there own and have very good deals with the hardware maker and ship 250 000 units minimum.

"Linspire is one of the largest contributors to opensource. "

Linspire like to make themself look bigger and say that they contribute , but the reality is tottaly different. They donate little amount of money to some really huge project.

"You are just a troll."

No , but then again you dont know the meaning of troll, and I dont feel like stepping really down to your basement level and getting into personnal attack with you.

"You write a lot without having any knowledge about the company or what it does. "

Funny :

- I have there 3 former IPO submission.
- I have some copies of there deals and financials due to the relation I have.
- I have 5 years of news about them in 5 language inside a folder.
- I have 1 full Google Alert Platinum set on them.
- I Have a copy of there incorporation statement.
- I have 30 report from many group who I had to pay 1k - 3k to get a copy about what They think of Lindows/Linspire
- I have 50 + people that track them and there doing and fill my inbox with what they do.
etc ...

You got the same as above and more ? Mr Robertson and Mr Carmony dont even have what I have. In fairness They probably know something I dont , but its because I cant know everything.

I am The #1 Linspire Expert outside the company, I jus whont admit ot it. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @ Anonymous (IP: ---.snd1.dsl.speakeasy.net)

"I don't understand the venom against Kevin Carmony"

You dont even understand the meaning of the word venom ...

" I think it's good that a President of the company tracks his company and responds online. "

Thats the Job of the PR and communication President or VP ... President of a company first priority is to make is comapany profitable.

"Insiders do get benefits as Mr. Carmony referred to such as CNR membership, invites to special parties, tickets or discounts to Desktop Summit, free MP3beamer software, etc."

Wow , that really nice ALL the Insiders get :

- CNR membership ( Excuse me I tought it whas included for 99$ )
- invites to special parties
- tickets to Desktop Summit ( airplane tickets ? )
- discounts to Desktop Summit ( I assumed it whas free )

I am wondering why just 15k people ...

I whas sarcastic here ...

" I don't think he listed them out to make sure it didn't seem like a big advertisement. "

OR He dont whant some people starting to wonder why they did not get some of this stuff even do they paid 99$ too ...

"Linspire is a HUGE open source contributor in money and code."

Care to back that up with full detail and the money involved ...

"They are investing millions if not tens of millions in making linux usable by mass market"

Really ? Thats why there own open source page dont even go as high as 500k , all added up and comptabilised ...

"and getting stores to carry it. "

Do this for me , name 50 computer store in your area , list them , go on a treck there and see wich one carry Linspire , put your report on the same page , and dont forget to ask if they heard of Linspire and why they aint carrying it and come back and tell me how many do and why ...

David Ross (IP: ---.isp.comcastbusiness.net)

"Why the venomous diatribe?"

Learn what venomous means ...

" I find it astonishing that someone would object to the President of a company paying attention to what its customers think"

I find it really unbeliveable the amount of people who think the job of a President of a company is suppose to be PR outside is company website inside the comments. I dont think 5% of the Linspire user come and read here , and that it is more important then increasing is sale numbers and findings ways to make the company profitable.

"and writing thoughtful, reasoned replies (which Kevin has done consistently, on many websites, for at least the last two years). "

Since is writing are toughtful and reasoned , why does he have 90% of the GNU/Linux community pissed at him personnaly and the majority at his company and product and often more then not he is proven wrong in is assupmtions?

"This company really listens to feedback from its user base"

Thats why "most" people buy once and thats it ?

"and frankly it's not all that common to see that in this day and age. "

Its common , but you just dont know what your talking about.

"Linspire 5.0 is an excellent O.S"

Linspire 5.0 is a really good Gnu/Linux version ...

"appropriate for many users"

Thats why out of all the GNU/Linux offer , Linspire as the least user ?

"but if it's not your cup of tea"

Never said that , but then again a lot of Linspire user like to fabricate fairy tales and ignore the facts, and put insult in the mouths of others to explain things they dont comprehend.

"DON"T BUY IT ! "

I will Buy it , I will analyze it , I will discuss the management and its company and every detail I see fit and I will discuss it. If you dont like it , thats not my problem.

"For me, it's the best O.S."

You dont even know what an O.S means ...

" investment I've made in years...."

I really pitty you right now. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why all the Axe Grinding? It seems you have serious issues with Linspire and everything about it. Why not take it up with Kevin Carmony or Michael Robertson. They don't hide, just email them. The bottom line is if you don't like don't use it. If you don't want to support it don't support it. I'm just amazed at some of the issues others have and the silly venting to get their point across. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? And I am growing weary of astroturfing by Lindows/Linspire folks who do nothing but essentially run infomercials for the company in question. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? what I find funny is that the first part of your post was wildly inflamatory, big on accusations, low on facts. The rest of it actually contained facts backing up what you were saying. And of course, you get fifty comments based on the top part, while everyone ignores the bottom part. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? noone here said they violate the gpl. noone hates them because they are "evil".

here is why i dont like linspire:
they charge money for apt-get.

not only apt-get, but a very small subset of whats available if you go the free route. i would have the same issue if ubuntu charged for sid. sure, its legal, but its not too ethical. They also have bad history in dealing with open projects. granted, they have been working quite hard to change that image, but the oss community is like an elephant, it doesnt forget.

On the flipside, n|vu is quite nice, and mp3beamer looks neat, although I dont think the market is quite ready for something like that yet.

but hey, i dont take any success that they have as a personal insult. a fool and his money, and all that...

but lets actually look at what Moulinneuf said:

They say "we are doing great" quite loudly at every oppertunity to anyone who will listen, but they really arnt.

The link the president pointed to as evidence that they are all a-bustle with activity is filled with marketing fluff.

They claim that the insiders get compensated, he asked for something substancial saying that. He makes a very good point that it looks like linspire charges people for beta testing. unlike him, i dont get upset about that. (refer to the quote about a fool and his money)

the president said that they offer a money back guarentee on everything they sell, Moulinneuf posted a link to a liscence agreement that says otherwise. Someone is lieing here, the linspire website, or kevin carmony.
-------------------------------------------------
Honestly, linspire seems like one of the billion "whats the point?" distros out there. if they actually manage to make an idiot-proof linux that still has all the power and flexibility that linux offers, ill change my tune and start singing their praises. I dont think that will ever happen for any distro, and I think if it did we would lose alot of what makes linux rock so hard. But hey, these are personal opinions. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? anyone who went from xandros to lycoris to linspire has no clue what I would consider a good distro to be. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? To Kevin :

As the person partially responsible for starting this debate, I'd like to thank you Kevin for taking the time to answer here. I think that was a great way to demonstrate that I was wrong when saying that you didn't answer to customers outside of Insiders.

Btw, just to clear out things, I am a LifeTime member of CNR, and I think I got a really great deal by doing that. Thanks a lot for offering that opportunity.

Just to make things even more clear, I am a developer, and I know the value of time when beta-testing, so this is why a lot of my questions were centered around value for the user versus value for Linspire.

Again thank you for answering honestly, and I have no problem at all that the $99 entrance fee is a barrier to entry to get the most motivated people. I understand this very well and I think the total value to the buyer is probably right, as the people participating in the program seem happy. And as you said you have a good money-back guarantee.

I did myself consider becoming an Insider, mostly out of curiosity because I liked 4.5 and wanted to see where Five-O was going. I didn't go through with it at the time because I didn't understand the value, and also because I couldn't spend the time testing the distribution, so I guess I was indeed not in your target market.

Just to quickly finish, I tested the Linspire Five-0 Live CD and unfortunately it didn't work on my Dell Dimension at work (I think it didn't like the graphic card, which is an ATI Radeon but connected with VGA, not DVI) and on my home machine it didn't recognize the on-board Ethernet card (on an ASUS P5GD1 motherboard). I did though get to see the GUI on my home machine, and I must say it looked impressive.

To Moulineuf :
I'm really sorry but I have a lot of trouble believing you are doing anything than flaming. How can you expect us to believe you have 50 people working for you analyzing Linspire ? Even stock market analysts do not assign as many resources on studying *one* company.

Sure Linspire has had problems with it's image. I do partly agree that they could do a better job about communicating what they have contributed. Why is it that Lsongs and Lphotos are open-source but that we don't see them in other distributions ? Are they too branded ? NVU seems to be doing better in that regard, and seems to have been very successful. I'm sure that Linspire is also working with OpenOffice, and I would love to see them get more involved, as this project has some amazing potential.

Despite all the negative things I've said about Linspire, I still like Michael Robertson's general direction (for example MP3Tunes is a *GREAT* idea !), and they are DEFINITELY on the right track for building a Linux distribution that is really easy to use ! Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Just because you don't like someone's choice of distros does not make their choice less valid. They follow the GPL and still you say that's an issue how can someone doing what they are told they can do by a license be bad? I don't get it. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Why all the Axe Grinding?"

Why the nonsense comment , no really , venonemous , axe grinding , dont buy it , dont comment on it ... etc ...

Might it be that your not interested or dont understand what I am talking about ? why bother making me into something I am not ? If what I discuss dont interest you , dont comment or reply to it.

" It seems you have serious issues with Linspire and everything about it."

No , but then again there is this enforced notion , that one cannot discuss anything done badly at Linspire and not be a troll ( because they dont know what a troll is ).

" Why not take it up with Kevin Carmony or Michael Robertson. "

You have seen them reply ? here ? I whont even go into the details about the many people who add there post deleted on Linspire forum because they where shading some light on things they saw as a problem.

"They don't hide, just email them. "

same as above , and you would be surprised to know the truth about that one. Its my real name and real working e-mail ...

"The bottom line is if you don't like don't use it."

Simplistic answer but true , but since I buy it ...

"If you don't want to support it don't support it."

Again with the Simplistic answer , since I whant them to increase there sale point in my country to more then two ...

" I'm just amazed at some of the issues others have and the silly venting to get their point across."

Your so superior , you said exactly the same thing as the rest of them which is absolutely irrelevant to what I discuss and your not in the same boat as them. (sarcastic) Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Listen... don't respond to this troll any more. You're just encouraging him. The ONLY people that bash Linspire publicly and harshly are those who have NEVER used the product or they think that everyone should be using the distro they prefer. I read his thoughts and frankly found them to be hysterical. They are typical of someone who doesn't know the facts and isn't motivated enough to do their homework.

I've never ever seen a Linspire user bash the other Linux distros out there. That should tell you something about the community Linspire has built. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Its all factual and 100% accurate , there is a lot of stuff I dont feel like going and pulling of the web , I pay for the information and even if I provide a link to every phrase I make there still going to be someone saying I am trolling or personnaly insulting me.

I have learned recently that most people dont understand what I am talking about because most people are not educated in what I whas educated and dont have access to all that I have access to. And sometime my medium english writing skills are not enough and gets in the way.

I guess I am also not like you I care a bit much about seing Linspire survive and do well and you dont. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Keep in mind who the target market is for Linspire. It's for the non-technical user. Everything we do is to make desktop Linux SUPER easy to use.

For example, Linspire computers are very popular in Mexico because they are so affordable. 85% of the homes in Mexico don't have a computer yet because they've been too expensive. That's now changing with Linux-based desktop computers which are free of the "Microsoft Tax."

If you sell a Linux computer to someone who's never owned a computer in their life, it needs to be SUPER easy to use. That's our market.

Yes, we charge for our products and services. It's how we pay our 100 employees to work here and make Linux better. We think our pricing is fair and offers a quality service for the price charged.

People pay for convenience all the time with things we could do ourselves "for free." We pay to have our hair cut, the oil in our car changed, someone to baby sit our children, someone to cook us a hamburger, someone to mow our lawn or clean our house. Just because one person would prefer to do these things for themselves, rather than pay someone, doesn't mean these services shouldn't be made available to those who find them worthwhile and convenient.

Many of the people reading this post will know how to use apt, but the average person wouldn't have a clue. If you know how to use apt, and you're happy with that, then of course you shouldn't pay for the CNR service. That would be like asking an auto mechanic to pay to have the oil changed in his car. But, just because the mechanic knows how to change the oil, doesn't mean that Jiffy Lube should be run out of town for charging for that service to those who find it a convenience.

Here are some of the differences between CNR and apt, as far as ease-of-use goes....

- CNR presents the products in an easy-to-browse "warehouse" with screenshots, user reviews, etc. (http://linspire.com/warehouse)

- CNR installs software with ONE click.

- CNR uninstalls software with ONE click.

- CNR notifies you of updates to any of the software you have installed on your computer, and those updates can be installed with ONE click.

- CNR can fix itself if it becomes wedged.

- Linspire tweaks, updates and enhances many of the programs in the CNR Warehouse to make them easier to use. For example, we default everything to use the My Documents folder. For new users, that's important. If you were to install GIMP using CNR, you'd see a very different layout, etc., designed to make GIMP easier to use.

- The CNR servers are kept on state of the art servers with a solid bandwidth pipe.

- CNR comes with support (phone, email, community, etc.)

- All programs are tested in the Warehouse to interoperate so that you don't break anything or have any dependency problems.

We've spent four years making CNR better and better, and it's come a long way. I wish it was just as simple as using apt, but it's much more than that.

Ease of use isn't critical to many of you reading this post, but if Linux is ever to get to the 98% of average computer users, it needs to be extremely easy to use. That's what Linspire is trying to do.

Kevin Carmony
President, Linspire, Inc. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "I'm really sorry but I have a lot of trouble believing you"

You dont have to belive me at all , confirm it by yourself ...

"I have a lot of trouble believing you are doing anything than flaming."

Learn what flaming is , its never going to be pointing out flaw and asking that they raise the visibility to make more income.

"How can you expect us to believe you have 50 people working for you analyzing Linspire ?"

They report to me , I dont have 50 people working for me doing that , I have 50 people then when they see something they think I havent seen about Linspire they forward it to me. its a two way exchange I provide information back to them in return.

"Even stock market analysts do not assign as many resources on studying *one* company. "

Many stock market analyst fail at there predicition due to this ...

"Sure Linspire has had problems with it's image."

I havent spoke of there image.

"I do partly agree that they could do a better job about communicating what they have contributed."

Not my point , its nice that they contribute , everyone should do it , but there wording is meant to imply they are sponsors and contributor when most of the time they are only donator and that others do less.

"Why is it that Lsongs and Lphotos are open-source but that we don't see them in other distributions ?"

Someone at Linspire aint doing its job properly , I think they are in SuSe do , not sure ...

"You can now use Lsongs to purchase music directly from MP3tunes for just 88 cents a song or $8.88 for a full album. "

Of course the above income from all the GNU/Linux distribution would not be nice ... why do you think apple released I-tune for windows ...

"Are they too branded ?"

Probably , but there is probably a possibilty to rebrand it for others , so that point is not really what mathers , what mathers is the lost income not generated by the others using it.

"NVU seems to be doing better in that regard"

You might be on to something ...

"and seems to have been very successful. "

Depends on how you quantify succesful.

" I'm sure that Linspire is also working with OpenOffice"

they sale OOoFf! , working with OpenOffice ? would be news to me.

" I still like Michael Robertson's general direction"

Not quite there in my opinion , but one as to admire is way of actually getting some job done and implemting a release on it. Too bad he dont see why is company fail and the big picture.

" and they are DEFINITELY on the right track for building a Linux distribution that is really easy to use !"

They dont deserve all the credit , GNU/Linux improve by a 2 year commercial leap every 6 month. Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "My point was and still is that i would rather see an entry level (for an "insider" program) that's higher than usual regulated by a slightly more difficult install which would most of the times assure to some extend that both motivated and "*skilled*" users are attracted."

If skill was a factor in being allowed to be and insider the market would not be better served.

Linspire Inc. is going after the pre-installation market so they want to get converts from Windows, but more importantly they want to attract people who never owned a computer before.

Commonly those who would sign up to be insiders do possess some knowledge of varying degrees which helps cut down on the noise level in the bug reports filed and requests made.

Unskilled people are needed as well because they will do things "skilled" people never thought of doing, and will help identify areas where things need to be simplified or made more clear.

A person that is willing to plunk down $99 to join the insider program is more likely to want to participate in a more interactive manner, communicate the bugs, work with other insiders to figure out what is going on and occasionally work it out with the engineers, and to try and provide feedback on new previously unreleased stuff or new features added to previously released stuff.

Anyone who is willing to communicate their ideas, their issues, and work with others to figure things out is a good candidate for the insider program and there are others who will welcome them to the family and help them along when there are problems or somethig doesn't make sense to them.

Later, Seeker Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? " don't respond to this troll any more. "

Learn what a troll is first ...

"You're just encouraging him. "

No actually , some fans of Linspire are bashing me , because they have absolutely no clue what I am talking about.

"The ONLY people that bash Linspire publicly and harshly are those who have NEVER used the product or they think that everyone should be using the distro they prefer."

I Have used linspire since its first release.

"they are typical of someone who doesn't know the facts and isn't motivated enough to do their homework."

I have the fact , I do my homework and I do the dirty work others fail to do.

"I've never ever seen a Linspire user bash the other Linux distros out there. That should tell you something about the community Linspire has built."

You must be really new ... and here I tought your where a Linspire user bashing me ... Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'll stick with Windows XP over Lindspire anyday. I also think it's cheap of your company Kevin, to make people subcribe so that they can download your proprietary AOL dialer.

You really should consider giving it away, because it's a product much needed for the Linux community in general. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? They do give it away, the source code is right here:

http://software.linspire.com/pool-src/los/los-aol/ Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? As with pretty much everything we do, the AOL dialer is open source and anyone is free to use our AOL Dialer.

http://software.linspire.com/pool-src/los/los-aol/

Linspire has spent over 20 million dollars improving the OS, and much of that has gone to projects such as Lsongs, Lphoto, Nvu, Mozilla, OpenOffice, Reiser FS, etc., all of which is given back to the open source community.

http://linspire.com/opensource

Kevin Carmony
President, Linspire, Inc. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Linspire appeals to people suffering from Obsessive Marketing Personality Disorder. They are generally loud, opinionated and equate high prices with quality. For them all that glitters is gold and a glossy brochure filled with testimonials is more important than reality or facts. They are also addicted to keywords like "insider", "exclusive member", "not available to others" etc.

If you suspect you are suffering from OMP Disorder or know a Linux users who is - seek help immediately!

Self help is now available by buying a copy of my exclusive book "Recovering from OMPD". It has a very slick and glossy cover and is filled with testimonials plus lots of helpful insider tips on dealing with this exclusive disorder. It's available online for only $49.95 and for an extra $50 a year you can download all the latest testimonials too!


Actually I'm only kidding but there does appear to be a portion of Linux users attracted to the more marketing orientated distros. Linux users probably just reflect society in general and will naturally gravitate towards what they are familiar with.

Peace and diversity Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Okay, quick message for Mr. Carmony:

Please tell your employees that I think they've done a good job working on the Linspire OS. I use OSX 10.3.8 and Windows XP almost exclusively now but was once a part-time Lindows user in the past. After seeing so much press about Linspire 5.0 recently, I may need to take a second look.

Another comment,
Whoever is directly responsible (Mr. Carmony or whoever) for making the decision to release the AOL dialer, Nvu, LSongs, Lphoto, etc source code back to the Linux community has my utmost appreciation. I'm glad to see a company respect the GPL by releasing code when it's appropriate and I am more overjoyed when I see a company actually promoting it. Thank you for your contribution.

For the people that have been ranting on this forum, please grow up. Everyone has their preferences for an OS, that's called choice. If you don't like the OS, don't use it.

I use Linux almost exclusively at my job everyday, guess what I do when I get home? I use my Mac... it's called choice. I'm not here to get anybody to use it either... you pick whatever you want. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This does me no good. I have no instructions on how to install this, or what to do with it.

It would be nice if I could ./recompile and then ./install Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "This does me no good. I have no instructions on how to install this, or what to do with it. "

I had stopped commenting on OSnews, but this is too much. What exactly do you expect? Do you want lindows to give you a support line as well? Try paying for the product.

Note: I am not a Linux(Lindows) user. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 04:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Everyone has their own preference. Some people feel strongly about them. I don't regret the money I have spent becoming a Insider. I'll admit that I was very hesitant to do so. After helping to get Five-0 ready for release and seeing the amount of dedication of the staff, I have no regrets. Whatever people's feelings about the Management, remember that there are some excellent employees who put a lot of blood sweat and tears into their product. Employees that have to buy food, pay rent/mortgage, and toilet paper to wipe their butts. You cannot give a product away and pay your employees. Personally, I've never met Kevin or Michael, but I have enjoyed observing them create a business.

I use Linspire on two out of three machines. I love playing with other distro's and find the improvements in a variety of Distrobutions, including Linspire over the past few years absolutely amazing. Imagine my surprise when I checked out Kanotix and found out that in their software library has NVU, Lphoto, and Lsongs. Products created by Linspire employees and released to the Linux community. Kanotix, by the way is a pretty cool distro.

There was one comment early that really gets to me. False misconception usually do... Linspire does not make you pay for apt. Just go and uncomment the apt source file and apt-get till ya break the thing. The CNR "service" is a proprietory piece of software that if you WANT to use - you have to pay for. Choices - that is what it is about. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I think enough has been said for and against Linspire. It is a matter of choice, if someone wants to pay money for something they think will benefit them, good luck to them. Trying to compete against Microsoft Windows on the desktop front and being easy to use are difficult goals to achieve. If you don't want to pay for an operating system/software, dont, but frankly speaking all this bashing is getting a bit over the top.

p.s: I do not use Linspire or Linux or Microsoft Windows Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm not going to try to find the quotes from all the comments I have read on this. I ran OS2 and loved it, I ran an isp service using it. When IBM quit supporting it and my internet software was obsolete, I had to switch to something else. I wound up with Mandrake linux. They have free downloads of their iso's but if you want the extras you must purchase the boxes. There is another option, it is called Mandrake club. A silver membership is $132 a year and gold is $660 a year. Note per year. This gives you say in some of what they are doing with Mandrake and opertunity to download more software. A 3 disk set will become a 5 disk set for silver memeber etc.Like insider but much more expensive.
A while back they were in financial trouble. Club memberships and box sales were part of them turning it around. I had a silver membership for years. I own box sets up to and including 10.1. Bottom line, I used their os and did what I could to support them.
I find the system hard to work with as I know so little about Linux.
I found Linspire about a year ago. I installed it along side winxp on my desktop unit and found I liked it very much. I also installed it afterwords on my working laptop,my main machine.This is something I can help friends using winXX switch to with ease. I did another one of these yesterday.
Getting back to what got me going on this in the first place
I paid my $99 after just a short time using the os and as an insider, some of the problems I came up with others haden't even thought about happening. If I had had to do some kind of test to become an insider, I probably wouln't be one and the problems I had could have been some of the bugs showing up when other users like me tried to install 5.0.
Just my 2 cents worth! Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Many of the people reading this post will know how to use apt, but the average person wouldn't have a clue. If you know how to use apt, and you're happy with that, then of course you shouldn't pay for the CNR service. That would be like asking an auto mechanic to pay to have the oil changed in his car. But, just because the mechanic knows how to change the oil, doesn't mean that Jiffy Lube should be run out of town for charging for that service to those who find it a convenience."

Agreed, and that isnt the issue. It is about whether there is enough added value to CnR to ethically justify charging for it. If you are talking about a mechanics point of view, than debian would have FAR more value than CnR, simply by the amount of packages available. I understand what you are saying, but that is not what I am talking about.

- CNR presents the products in an easy-to-browse "warehouse" with screenshots, user reviews, etc. (http://linspire.com/warehouse)

Synaptic (http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/action.html) provides a native frontend to the same kind of "warehouse". While lacking in screenshots and user reviews, that is nowhere near enough to justify a monthly fee when such things are so widely available elsewhere.

- CNR installs software with ONE click.

While synaptic requires a double click, a click on the apply button, and a click on a confirmation dialogue. Arguably, this is a point in Synaptics favor, as the queueing up of applications to install/uninstall lets you just walk away after you start the process. A non issue on most machines for sure, but it makes the inital setup process alot less painful than windows and linspire put together.

- CNR uninstalls software with ONE click.

Again, synaptic requires under five.

- CNR notifies you of updates to any of the software you have installed on your computer, and those updates can be installed with ONE click.

Synaptic will offer a category view called "upgradable", which can all be applied with (once again), under five clicks.

- CNR can fix itself if it becomes wedged.

As can synaptic.

- Linspire tweaks, updates and enhances many of the programs in the CNR Warehouse to make them easier to use. For example, we default everything to use the My Documents folder. For new users, that's important. If you were to install GIMP using CNR, you'd see a very different layout, etc., designed to make GIMP easier to use.

This is normal. Pretty much every distro does such things to add value to their product, and make them stand out. If you guys do it more than others, congratulations. It still doesnt justify a monthly fee for apt.

- The CNR servers are kept on state of the art servers with a solid bandwidth pipe.

I have zero complaints using ubuntu, but thats just me. To be fair, that is added value, but I have never used CnR for an extended period of time, so I cant really judge.

- CNR comes with support (phone, email, community, etc.)

Once again, this is standard commercial distro stuff. I would venture that the apt community is far larger then the CnR community, but regardless, it is irrelivent.

- All programs are tested in the Warehouse to interoperate so that you don't break anything or have any dependency problems.

Debian applications go through a three tier testing cycle, and it shows. You will get more problems with debian, but debian is also an order of magnitude larger then linspire.

We've spent four years making CNR better and better, and it's come a long way. I wish it was just as simple as using apt, but it's much more than that.

Im sorry

User reviews
Screenshots
Good bandwidth
Two less confirmation dialogues

do not add enough value to justify charging for it. I have no problem with an easy to use distro, and would definately consider linspire if CnR were free. Or even if you charged for the CnR frontend, but made a patched synaptic that would also work fine, and at no cost. That way, the people you are fleecing will still be happy, and people who know what is available would consider what otherwise looks like the easiest to use linux out there. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I disagree with you. Everything CNR offers, IMO, is worth the money. It's a single click solution. Not a between 1 and 5 click solution. If you don't like it... don't use it. As for me... I prefer my OS work for me... not the other way around.

CNR support is not irrelevant. If an application doesn't work on my system it's nice to know that I can send an email to support and get an answer.

My suggestion for you is to save your money and use a different distro. But whatever you do, don't sit here and tell the rest of us that CNR isn't valuable when we feel that it is. That's just lame. As long as folks are using Linux and liking it, it shouldn't matter which distribution they use even if it is different from the ones you like. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Thats fine, as I said in earlier comments, I dont get upset the way some other people seem to about linspire. I do use a distro (incidentily, one of the many where apt is free), and that last one was directed at kevin carmony, not general linspire users, and it is about what is a dealbreaker for me, not the people already using it.

Honestly, his attitude seems to be "If you know what you are doing, linspire isnt for you". I dont think it needs to be that way, but it will be unless they are able to maintain debian compatibility, allowing for users to install stock debian packages if they choose not to opt-in to the whole CnR deal, which I (and a GREAT many other people feel is a total ripoff). Or, they could offer the CnR 1 click interface as a service (since it seems to be so much better then using synaptic), and let people who know what they are doing connect to their repos in whatever way they see fit. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? the third option is to give us solid reasons why CnR is something more than an apt-replacement that doesnt boil down to 95% marketingspeek. Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "I disagree with you."

No , your harassing anyone who as a different view then yours. You dont offer a diverging view or offer precise detail of why you think differently. Strangely some moderator here think that you can insult personnaly others and go against there own chart. Its funny how the rules dont apply to you.

"Everything CNR offers, IMO, is worth the money."

Glad you think so , you have the 2000$ (1) worth of software that CNR offer I presume ? to make such a definitive comment ?

" Not a between 1 and 5 click solution."

Normally other Debian option offer command line solution or synaptic wich is now just as good as CNR. Seems to me your comment is like you irrelevant.

" If you don't like it... don't use it."

That seem to be your motto , only people you agree with have the right to speak about something and they must not discuss of what they whant to discuss because they will get harrassed and told to do something else.

" As for me... I prefer my OS work for me... not the other way around. "

Your using GNU/Linux from Linspire , Linspire work the way Linspire developper decide it should work , I doubt you of all people have much say in the way Linspire work.

"CNR support is not irrelevant. "

Yes it is , because CNR is a distribution system , it work at getting the software and instaling it or it dont. Its really simple.

" If an application doesn't work on my system it's nice to know that I can send an email to support and get an answer. "

Thats not CNR support thats Linspire service to you since you use there product ... There not going to make change to CNR , there going to look at the software your trying to get , and at your hardware configuration.

"My suggestion for you is to save your money and use a different distro"

And here I tought that ALL Linspire user where polite , respectfull and helpfull to each others. That comment examplify and explain perfectly why the Linspire company as a problem with its bottom line even do they have a great product , people like you tend to do one hundred time more harm to a comapny then a defective product.

" But whatever you do, don't sit here and tell the rest of us that CNR isn't valuable when we feel that it is. "

Right , only people who say CNR is great can talk according to people like you , if it work perfect for you it must be perfect for the rest of the planet. Too bad there is not much more people like you , then Linspire would be under so much wealth that they could buy company like Apple , Microsoft , or some of the other GNU/Linux commercial distribution.

"That's just lame."

No , whats lame is your assumption that your right and that because you like it everyone else should like it too. Your many other negative things , but I whont stoop to your lower level.

"As long as folks are using Linux and liking it"

People have been using GNU/Linux since 1991 , from many other distribution , most of them are profitable and have been in existance longuer then Linspire ... Linspire could disapear just like the company from wich code they started : Corel. And GNU/Linxu would not stop.

"it shouldn't matter which distribution they use even if it is different from the ones you like."

If your so sure about your company of choice and that they are so stable why do you feel the need to defend it ? why do you feel the need to harass other who dont like certain things in it ? what make you so sure your right when at the end of all the previous years Linspire whas in operation they did not made once a profitable year ?

Its not the difference wich is the problem, as proven by the hundred of different version based of Debian.

---------

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etc ... Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Keep in mind who the target market is for Linspire."

1) You dont have a market or more to the point looking at your financial result the market you target is unaware of your product and offers.

2) Your strategy as not been working until now , mostly because the market you target listen to the very people you insult all the time.

3) You have the vague notion that you can set your own rules , only a market leader who can crush all others can do that Linspire aint that big.

"It's for the non-technical user."

Thats part of your problem , most people dont think there non-technical or that they are not really qualified. The first thing they think is its to dumb down for me , and you loose a client.

"Everything we do is to make desktop Linux SUPER easy to use."

At the cost of security and choice and at the expanse of making your product less competitive, do you really think that the reason Slackware jumped box numbers whas to make a
joke on the others , the real reason is that they where considered old by most of the potential buyers , when people read 8000 softare vs 2500 software do you really think they
going to pick the 2500 offer ...

"Linspire computers are very popular in Mexico"

It would be interesting that for once you showed the data from which you make such a declaration , I dont see how you can be very effective with 7 main reseller to target a
population of 105 million people.

"Linux-based desktop computers"

Most people living in mexico who can afford a computer use Laptop , because the electric system there aint that great.

"it needs to be SUPER easy to use."

Your saying this like you have the most easy to use Gnu/Linux product ...

"we charge for our products and services."

Absolutely nothing wrong with that ...

"It's how we pay our 100 employees to work here and make Linux better."

I am certain that your all employee are not paid from the profit you make from your sales , feel free to show us all to the contrary.

"We think our pricing is fair and offers a quality service for the price charged."

The entire Gnu/Linux market and your own target market seems to disagree with you.

"People pay for convenience ... them worthwhile and convenient."

It seems your stuck on repeating the same thing to at least make yourself believe in it ,People will not pay to have there hair cut if a stylist do it for free , whont pay for the the oil in there car to get changed if a company or people give it away for free , whont pay if the aunt or someone they trust offer to baby sit the children for free , whont pay for a hamburger if anyone give them for free ,whont pay someone to mow the lawn or clean the house , if someone do it for free. Your point might seem valid but it dont make sense in the market your in.

"then of course you shouldn't pay for the CNR service."

I guess thats why I dont like you , instead of thinking of ways for people who use apt-get to whant to pay to use CNR , your just saying we dont care about you your not our target
market. And in doing so losing millions in sales.

"That would be like asking an auto mechanic to pay to have the oil changed in his car."

The auto mechanic still as to pay for the oil , no one is offering free oil. And if someone offer the super Oil xlxsuper turbo charged and you can only get it by having your car serviced he is going to pay for the service if thats what he really whants.

"But, just because the ... find it a convenience."

But if jiffy lubes is using Exon oils and is doing such a bad job at it that its putting in danger Exon , there oil and the service of changing oils and that in that town most people are auto mechanic , there not just going to run you out of town ...

"Here are some of the differences between CNR and apt, as far as ease-of-use goes.... "

You offer some valid point and I will say that some option you describe are not availaible from no one else at this time , But ease-of-use is only one point to consider , and apt may not be much by itself , but apt is never delivered alone.

"but it's much more than that."

Funny how you dont even see when your insulting the work of the others who provide the software your using ...

"Ease of use isn't critical to many of you reading this post"

Actually , speaking for me , its one of the point that must be met , not the only one and not the first but its in my top 10.

"it needs to be extremely easy to use."

I agree , but not at the expanse of the rest ...

"That's what Linspire is trying to do."

Amateur try , expert do it.

Cheaper , better , faster , better looking , secure

You dont meet cheaper , you dont meet better , you dont meet faster , you got better looking for some , and your not considered secure.

Corel got destroyed doing what you do , SuSe got destroyed and bought by Novell for the same reason , And Novell a 3 billion $ USD company adapted not to do the same mistake , and you still thinks that the same force in the market dont apply to your company.

Keep doing what your doing , your doing great at running your company out of existance ... Mr Robertson should be tieing your paycheck with the company real profit and results. Maybee then you would change your tune and scripted answers.

Oh , yes to stay in line with the main context how many mexican do you have paying 99$ to get inside your insider program ? Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? With all this fighting going on I will never have to worry about my Windows going away. You guys will find ways to get rid of Linux or whatever other stuff you guys come up by yourself. Thanks to users like mattb and Moulinneuf Opensource will never succeed in the market. Rock on guys and sink this ship with all it's crap onboard! Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "With all this fighting going on "

Fighting ? No its an open discussion , the sales of Linspire is not affected by what I say here at all ...
people who whant to try and buy it will do so.

"I will never have to worry about my Windows going away."

As long as Microsoft is alive and that enough people keep buying it , it whont go away anytime soon.

"You guys will find ways to get rid of Linux or whatever other stuff you guys come up by yourself."

Thats funny you might have missed the news but Gnu/Linux is now 9% of the entire desktop market , we beat Apple wich is now at 5% , and Microsoft is down from 90% to 78%,
and the remaining 8% is the other stuff ...

"Thanks to users like mattb and Moulinneuf Opensource will never succeed in the market. "

Open Source is in use at Microsoft :

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/default.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/licensing/getsource...

And You make the mistake so many uneducated people such as yourself make that assume GNU/Linux is the same thing as open source.

BSD are Open Source but they are not GNU/Linux , Solaris is now Open source but they are not GNU/Linux... etc ...

"Rock on guys and sink this ship with all it's crap onboard! "

It would be hard to sink this ship :

www.distrowatch.com

Its not just one ship anymore ...

Its gone from a one person row boat to the United Nations entire nations armed forces .....

And more importantly I dont run Linspire into the ground , Mr Carmony as been doing that for 5 years all by himself ...

And Btw Linspire came from Corel , it whas raised once , it can be raised again ;-) after all its Gnu/Linux. Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I expect in the tradition of GNU/Linux, developers release free versions of all of their software.

I am not going to pay for Linux, or any software that runs on it. If I wanted to pay for software, I'd stick with XP (I still currently use it because I have no choice), which I can do everything I need to do with it.

Because I don't like Microsoft's business practices, nor their draconian licensing agreements. I'm trying to find an alternative to replace Windows. Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Thanks for the clarification. I understand your point a little better now. Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "the third option is to give us solid reasons why CnR is something more than an apt-replacement that doesnt boil down to 95% marketingspeek."

There isn't one.

The one click install, categorized listing, sorting listings by most recent or popularity, screenshot, additional commercial software available as Click and Buy applications, being able to create aisles of software and view aisles others have made and made public.

These things are attractive to many people.

That's it in a nutshell.

I find Synaptic to be easy, flexible, powerful and superior to the Click and Run client, but as easy as Synaptic is there are many people who find the Click and Run client a more attractive offering.

No matter what front end you use apt-get occasionally does the wrong thing leaving things broken until you take measures (apt-get -f install or what ever) to fix the situation and this is something where the Click and Run cient does in many cases notice and take care of.

Later, Seeker Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments