http://www.osnews.com/story/11431/Poll_Your_Thoughts_on_Macs_and_DRM Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:23:20 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread?12410 http://osnews.com/thread?12410 I'm not gay and I'm not gay-curious, thanks. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12411 http://osnews.com/thread?12411 how can any one have habits even without a single x86 mac released for the open market? may be you want to use a different word.. just a suggestion to avoid possible flame ;
cheers
ram Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (durbhas) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12412 http://osnews.com/thread?12412 It stands to reason that this Kit be married to the $999 heavily subsidized hardware Apple currently offers for Developing Houses to get their solutions Universal Binary tested and ready to sell when they have to return the hardware in 2006 -exact date disclosed between the two parties when one signs on board as an Apple ADC Select or Premiere developer. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12413 http://osnews.com/thread?12413 I am aganist DRM, in PC or Mac. And will never buy a computer that I cant disable (or at least control) this monster.

Some comments on the other thread said that those aganist DRM are those who wants to use pirated software, which isnt perfectly true, if you want to pay them to control your software and hardware its fine for me, Just dont whine later when the evil *asterds lock your stuff to pay them again. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12416 http://osnews.com/thread?12416 if apple was going to switch to x86, they had to do something to keep their os from running on just any x86 pc. I guess this was it. Bummer. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zizban) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12418 http://osnews.com/thread?12418 Didn't everyone see this coming? Apple makes most of its money on hardware, not software. They didn't announce their switch until Intel was ready to implement DRM. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (shaen) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12419 http://osnews.com/thread?12419 I'm sure most sane people will buy a new Mac when they're ready to upgrade; regardless of the processor architecture, and the inclusion of DRM. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fscotsman) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12420 http://osnews.com/thread?12420 I don't mind, I'm Morgan. As long as there is FOSS and p2p networks... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sbenitezb) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12422 http://osnews.com/thread?12422 The DRM doesn't keep you from using your mac hardware the way you want to use it. They already showed that you can put Linux or Windows on your Mac hardware. The DRM only keeps you from taking your Mac OS X to another computer that isn't a Mac. It wont stop you from playing your movies or your music. So this DRM isn't as horriable as people are making it out to be. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12429 http://osnews.com/thread?12429 I don't really mind DRM. It's coming wether we like it or not. Might as well make sure PC users get a decent implementation. I support Apple against their software being pirated.

If you want something to make me switch to Macs faster, git me Counter-Strike: Source and Visual Studio 2005 for MacOS X. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ronaldst) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12431 http://osnews.com/thread?12431 That's what I thought too but couldn't this also potentially be used to enforce drms on music and other media? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (moorewierdos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12432 http://osnews.com/thread?12432 If customers allow DRM in the Apple kernel because it isn't "real" DRM then the infrastructure has been laid for a simple software update that makes it "real" in the future. That is, when the movie execs come to Steve and say they want some assurances that their movies will be protected, he can say ok and point to the trusted computing infrastructure in every Mac. Then Microsoft can use the market penetration of movies on Mac to justify demanding that every OEM put DRM on motherboards of new PCs. Then consumers (the cattle) will run to get these new computers so they can get movies on demand. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (QuantumG) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12433 http://osnews.com/thread?12433 The Mac's main competitor is Windows and Windows uses their product activation so it's not like 95% of the computer market doesn't deal with it. I'm not the biggest fan of DRM, but it's not like it's a change for the Mac. Mac OS X wouldn't install on non-Apple PPC systems. Why would it install on non-Apple x86 systems?

Because you own a non-Apple x86 system and wish it could? Yeah, so do I, but it ain't gonna happen. Apple is generally nice enough when it comes to consumer rights (they don't have any piracy checks in the current Mac OS X and such), but they aren't all community free software like either. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (saterdaies) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12435 http://osnews.com/thread?12435 using DRM to stop Piracy, that has plagued the Windows Operating Systems for years will not happen on a Apple x86 computer this is good:), the people who like to get pirated copies of such will have to fork out a reasonable amount of money for the Best OS in the world OS X if they want to install it on their x86 Mac Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (clubgus) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12436 http://osnews.com/thread?12436 I really dont care if apple use DRM in their new computers to lock Mac OS to their hardware. I have Dual 2ghz G5 atm and when that gets out of date i will buy a new intel mac. If it works the same way as it does now who cares? not me... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sbeehre) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12437 http://osnews.com/thread?12437 Other than Eugenia and the bunch of ignorant wankers in the computer "industry" she hangs out with?

Everyone else epecially in the Free Software community saw this coming a mile away, and *SAID* so..... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12440 http://osnews.com/thread?12440 As long as it locks down only the OS I'm fine. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12442 http://osnews.com/thread?12442 You are such a good little sheep, sbeehre. Too bad the sheeple will never be rewarded. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12443 http://osnews.com/thread?12443 You can probably just install Linux and you disable the DRM. I think it is there to make sure OS X doesn't run on other platform. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12445 http://osnews.com/thread?12445 On a side note, if you vote or rate stories in a way Eugenia is "offended" by, prepare to receive a personal flame direct to your email box. Personally I am very offended by what I consider an *abuse* of OSNews having my personal contact information. If the OSNews staff doesn't like how I want to rate or vote stories or polls they shouldn't provide the ability to do so. Even if my vote and rate makes no sense to them. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (binarycrusader) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12447 http://osnews.com/thread?12447 DRM support in hardware isn't a problem, it is a feature. It is another chip with capabilities, however like all hardware you need to tell it to do something before it will. DRM hardware is only a problem if you choose to run software that takes control of your computer.

Your computer is a tool, and you will always be able to choose what runs. Windows and Mac OS may stop allowing you to play music your purchased online, but that is it. Does anyone really think that this will stop you able to install / run your own OS on the box? People have complained that this technology will leave you not in control of your box, but you have to yield control for that to happen. You have to trust what you install on your box, you don't trust it don't install it.

I have read that as part of this inititive computers will get the ability to partition memory so only a single process can actually use it, protecting even kernel level (Ring 0) code from effecting it. This is designed so no software can hijack the decoded buffer, and to provide a "Secure" path for the stream. If it is possible to have near limitless regions, it may be possible to isolate kernel drivers, so even a buggy driver cannot bring down the kernel. Allowing some of the advantages of microkernels to be done with monolithics.

Even if it has not advantages, it will not do anything unless the OS tells it to, you have a problem with what the OS is telling it to do, take it up with the OS provider, and stop running around like chicken little. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12450 http://osnews.com/thread?12450 Depending on how the DRM is used it might or might not influence whether I will get a Macintel Mini. I don't see DRM in the hardware as avoidable since so many companies are bent on it; however, I do want the DRM in the software to be limited. If I don't like the DRM in the software then I'll probably replace OS X with Mandriva and make it the last Mac I ever buy.

Since Windows is making increasing use of DRM, and Apple is following suit, I wonder what people who don't like Linux will do? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Celerate) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12452 http://osnews.com/thread?12452 no i as i said i just dont care! or see how its going to affect me. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sbeehre) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12454 http://osnews.com/thread?12454 Personally, I am praying that Microsoft does the same thing, so that your license is locked to the chip on your system.

Microsoft only has a monopoly because of piracy, everyone thinks their products are free.

Hahah..sucks to be a freeloading windows fanboy. You just know that MS is going to want this too if it works good for apple. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12456 http://osnews.com/thread?12456 What are you talking about? That's the problem with using a term like "DRM", no-one knows what it means. Product Activation is not DRM by any definition that is relevant to this discussion. The introduction of trusted computing hardware to Macs will fundamentally change the industry. It will also begin the end of freedom on the desktop. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (QuantumG) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12458 http://osnews.com/thread?12458 It's a tool, and one I'd love to make use of. I'm all for free/open source software, and they will be able to take advantage od the security related features (if not the corporate sanctioned DRM stuff) just as easilly as any other OS.

Just look at what IBM released for Linux, an example driver for it's TPM. Open source, GPL'ed even for those of you who demand such a thing (I'd have prefered BSDL myself), and you're free to extend the functionality based on available doccumentation.

Quit bitching about the automobile being bad for the horse and buggy business and learn to make use of a new set of tools.

Geeze. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12459 http://osnews.com/thread?12459 Ah, you didn't expect things to actually change, did you?

We have Microsoft employees voting down every anti-Microsoft comment and some young kid moderator giving comments a -5 score because he doesn't know diddly about computers.

While the new moderators are busy working on their corporate payoffs, the site will be slightly more balanced than before. So enjoy this brief respite from the tireless censorship that we had with the former editor. It won't last long.

The bottom line is that you've got to look at the site as entertainment, not news. Maybe if anonymous comments were not allowed and all posters had to post where they worked, it would be more interesting. It would certainly keep Microsoft's army of shills a bit more under control. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (pravda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12461 http://osnews.com/thread?12461 but i'm going to wait until an actual product is announced and released - and try it out before i start passing judgement and flaming on the relative merits of the product. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12464 http://osnews.com/thread?12464 > if apple was going to switch to x86, they had to do
> something to keep their os from running on just any
> x86 pc. I guess this was it. Bummer.

STOP YOUR APPLE PROPAGANDA PLEASE

Apple didn't switch to DRM because of x86, but Apple switched to x86 because of DRM!

> I'm sure most sane people will buy a new Mac when
> they're ready to upgrade; regardless of the processor
> architecture, and the inclusion of DRM.

Yes, "sane" people don't care about their interests, they simply say "It's in Apple's interest and not in mine, but hey, it's from Apple, the company who produces gorgeous music players and therefore it's OK to have a computer that does what Apple wants and not what I want". That's "sane".

> The DRM only keeps you from taking your Mac OS X to
> another computer that isn't a Mac. It wont stop you
> from playing your movies or your music.

APPLE PROPAGANDA ALERT

Next year, Apple will switch to x86 with DRM and one year later, Apple will release a silent update to "Pages" so that you can't open your "Pages" documents in software that was not produced by Apple. A silent update like all the silent iTunes updates that imposed more and more restrictions on the users.

> using DRM to stop Piracy, that has plagued the
> Windows Operating Systems for years will not happen
> on a Apple x86 computer this is good:)

Piracy has not "plagued" Microsoft, my darling, piracy has helped Microsoft to gain a monopoly, and now Apple tries to do it exactly the other way round by locking people in, but they will fail.

AND NOW PLEASE VOTE THIS DOWN BECAUSE I DID'T PRAISE APPLE Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12466 http://osnews.com/thread?12466 Somehow it is profoundly American that any intelligent discourse that contains a difference of opinion is voted down. But I did spot you a point for exercising your unalienable right to freedom of speech. Good luck keeping your comment above water. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (pravda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12467 http://osnews.com/thread?12467 This is kind of like throwing a Redwood trunk on the back of a dead camel. I stopped caring when:
1) Apple started suing it's fans
2) Apple switched to x86
I've wanted a PPC970 since it's inception, but kept holding off because Apple is out of control these days. Since the iTunes store success they've changed their face in some very frightening ways.
Since they've announced switching to x86 I have absolutely no reason to hope for their reform. It's not like I'd be buying a Mac for the software, I'd be installing Crux on it first chance I get. Why would I buy a subpar x86 build for a rather insane premium?

Now it's looking like we'll see DRM from them which, with the flip of some ./configure options, can be used to disable every legal flac on my system (were I not using Crux)? It's not a matter of having the choice to use another operating system, you're still supporting a company that is threatening to necessitate it with some truly evil controls, if they haven't already. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ethyriel) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12470 http://osnews.com/thread?12470 The DRM they have in place is to prevent people from running OS X on non-Apple hardware. It is already illegal to run OS X on non-Apple hardware, per the EULA, the DRM is merely a transparent enforcement of the license agreement that you, however unknowingly, agreed to.

Frankly, DRM is a necessary evil for companies, that are not providing open source solutions, to turn a profit. CD keys of the old days don't work anymore, as those can be cracked fairly easily (somewhat moreso than DRM as far as my understanding goes). So the DRM technologies we are seing are only out of companies desire to make money from theives that would just download the software at a click of a button without paying for it. It does punish the honest consumers among us, but the deliquent among us have brought this upon all. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12471 http://osnews.com/thread?12471 Spare me. This opinion isn't "intelligent discourse", and it should be voted down. While the comments the poster blasts down attempted to bring out some point, this poster just says WRONG! and brings up a bunch of end-of-the-world what ifs.

It is called trolling. There is not fact or reasonable point in the statements at all.

You want to blast the DRM because it "locks" you in? Fine. Change OSs. There is nothing that will stop you from using Linux or Windows.

Another thing, you talk about the more restrictive silent iTunes updates? When did the restrictions change? They haven't. They've been posted from day 1. The "silent" changes you speak of have been made to protect their current DRM from people who don't want to play by the rules.

Spare me the crap. Bring out real "intelligent discourse". Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (cujo) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12473 http://osnews.com/thread?12473 "when the movie execs come to Steve and say they want some assurances that their movies will be protected, he can say ok"

ummm... Steve *is* a movie executive:
http://www.pixar.com/companyinfo/aboutus/mte.html Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Jimbo) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12475 http://osnews.com/thread?12475 Why do people have this big problem with DRM? I mean cmon, is it not fair for a company to dictate how you use their software? When you purchase OSX you are not just buying the disk, you are licensing the right to use the software. It's all laid out for you in the EULA. Unless you are a software thief (in which case you are just lowdown despicable), I just cant imagine being bothered by DRM. And like posted above if you don't like it, learn to code your own system. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12476 http://osnews.com/thread?12476 Certainly. The day will come when I need a new daily work machine

But in the meantime I totally plan to get one of the last dual G5s and make it my dedicated multimedia machine. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kadymae) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12477 http://osnews.com/thread?12477 We saw this coming, didn't we? Apple has to lock their OS down somehow. It's not like this DRM chip is going to steal your soul and eat your children. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Jackson Brown) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12479 http://osnews.com/thread?12479 It seems as if Microsoft is going the software DRM route for the time being and Apple is going the hardware DRM route. I'm sure this is because the encryption of content via a hardware chip is a higher guarantee that content cannot be decrypted unofficially, then a software guarantee. I mean look at FairPlay how many times has Hymn continued to crack the DRM by leaps and bounds, no matter what Apple seems to do? I honestly believe the DRM is going to be used further than just the MacOS verification. I believe this is going to be incorporporated into a future yet-unreleased DRM mechanism/scheme for secure'd video and audio content playback. It would make perfect sense. Apple's DRM currently does not even come close to the rights managed artform's Sony's Open MagicGate, RealNetworks Helix DRM, or Microsoft's Windows Media DRM 10 all are. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12481 http://osnews.com/thread?12481 While everyone wants apple to stay 'pure' the fact is they need to make money like any other company. dnld some tracks on iTunes, there's DRM. Plus I want to buy an IntelMac to run OS X/Linux dual boot, and this will likely not change that. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12485 http://osnews.com/thread?12485 LOL that's the best laugh I've had all day. This DRM will be subverted just like every other DRM/copy protection solution out there today. It's really just cat and mouse. What's keeping me from emulating this DRM in some software virtualizer/emulator ala Qemu/Bochs? Copy protection is nearly as old as the software industry. We've had "unbreakable" and "implemented in hardware" copy protection solutions before, such as floppy disks with random lasered out sectors.

I am disappointed, but yes I did see this coming. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (the_trapper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12487 http://osnews.com/thread?12487 I remember every DRM article which involved Microsoft was received by people like: Microsoft owns you or i don't want Microsoft to control what i can do on PC.

Now its MAC and everyone is like its ok...i am glad i am not a part of this sucky double standard community.

Forever Windows here because it kicks ass and thats why its number 1....yeh baby...let these jealous people go to hell;) Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (CuriosityKills) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12488 http://osnews.com/thread?12488 If Apple thinks they are selling me a box that will run just MAC OS, I'm sorry to say forget about it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (anand78) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12491 http://osnews.com/thread?12491 Apple having joined in the content providing market, i think i tgoes far beyond the OS only. Movies thru iTunes, music thru iTunes. software. hardware that can interface with the machine. It's going to be ugly. Apple is still a corporation, and their devotion is to the bottom line, not to the user.If you have no content to provide because it won't play on hardware without DRM, then how are you going to sell hardware. Someone else will have the hardware that will play these files, and they will get the business. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12493 http://osnews.com/thread?12493 Your third paragraph is about something that would have to be very limited. Not to mention I believe it's already done with MMU's and no fancy dancy overkill encryption. If I write a program to walk over its bounds, at least on heap memory, the kernel will kill it once it gets out of its own memory region (not necessarily the memory allotted to that specific malloc).

I'm not sure if stack space is protected this way as well, but TMK the major stack problems have been with getting your own process overwritten not with writing over other processes.

Now, I could definitely see it used for things like streaming video which the source if concerned about people recording. This leads to encrypted and therefore illegal to hack things. The problem here is that you don't have full ownership of all your data, as a US citizen or citizen of any other DMCA country.
The idea here is that process x handles all stream downloading and encrypts it. This way, process y can look at it; but process z which isn't licensed legally cannot.

I think one of the biggest real advantages of this is disk encryption. It's done without it, but this would take a bit of a load off your cpu and probably save you some battery life. It's very nice on laptops which have sensitive data.

It is entirely possible for them to make it virtually impossible for you to legally do what you wish with your computer. Technically it's tough, but they can stop Joe User easily. We shouldn't be non-challant about things which can be dangerous. But we shouldn't see conspiracy where it doesn't exist either. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ma_d) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12495 http://osnews.com/thread?12495 You're missing a category:

"I don't play Eugenia's games." (x)

Mark Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12502 http://osnews.com/thread?12502 umm... no...

the DRM is so that OS X knows that it is an Apple box, not to exclude other OSs from running on it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Who is That) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12504 http://osnews.com/thread?12504 Guys, this is just the very first clumsy test-bed machine. I'll get upset if they roll out DRM in the real production models, not earlier. It is important to send the messge to Cupertino that we do not want DRM, but I would not become too worried right now. Moreover, we must all strenghten Apples market position so they can stand firm when the content industry demands strict DRM. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12507 http://osnews.com/thread?12507 Where's the "I'll buy when it's cracked" option? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12508 http://osnews.com/thread?12508 yeah, whatever LOL. i am sure some person will have cracked this in a day -- just like every other videogame, dvd, or piece of software out there. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12510 http://osnews.com/thread?12510 In my opinion, you guys fell for Eugenia's overt agenda. The "poll" has more to do with the kind of mean-spirited comment Eugenia made here:

http://slashdot.org/~Eugenia%20Loli/journal/113375

It's typical Eugenia "stirring the pot."

I was so glad when she left OS News. I thought we'd finally get some relatively agenda-free moderation. And now she's back with comments like "I laugh at your face." and a few minutes later, starting a poll on OS news!

Mark Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12512 http://osnews.com/thread?12512 How does having hardware DRM make sense for music and movies if they still plan on supporting Windows and their PPC customers? Make an Apple DRM card? Ok I won't give them ideas, lol Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (smoke) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12513 http://osnews.com/thread?12513 So, umm, yeah. I really think it would be smart of Apple to use this hardware DRM to tie things up on the Macintels. But wait! what about all those poor PowerPC Macs without hardware DRM?

If Apple will be supporting the 'legacy' PowerPC Macs any 'lock-down' of files they are planning would need to work on both for a good many years. I leave you to draw the obvious conclusion.

I personally prefer tea in my teapots. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12514 http://osnews.com/thread?12514 what makes you think it couldnt work the otehr way around.... of course i dont think it will, who would wan to anyway...

but what happens when you decide to upgrade your video card and all of a sudden you are locked out... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12516 http://osnews.com/thread?12516 That's what I thought too but couldn't this also potentially be used to enforce drms on music and other media?

No, because Windows is not using it. There is no way that the Mac version of iTunes (or whatever) could force hardware DRM because of the fact that you can copy your iTMS songs and play them on up to 5 different Macs and/or PCs. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12519 http://osnews.com/thread?12519 The is a typically Eugenia type of poll, trying to push her own personal agendas, as seen in her slashdot blog. We had an article before this, and it was already discussed. Get over it. There's no need to start a poll over this again. Are we going bloody start a poll over every single article in osnews? Or just the ones that dear eugenia would like to annoy us with. I was hoping she would no longer be actively participating in OSNews anymore. The quality of articles has really gone up since the new editors came along, but now we have back these flamebait artciles. Feh.

And magically a certain moderator will put a -5 on this comment, hiding whatever they don't want the public to see. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Johan) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12520 http://osnews.com/thread?12520 Agreed. If this were an article about Microsoft building DRM into the hardware, people (including Mac users) would be screaming bloody murder. But since it's Apple who's doing it, then it's ok.
Of course, I don't see how Mac users could protest - these are the same lemmings who've been buying up iPods and DRM'd music off the iTunes store, so who are they to criticize?

Face it, folks. Apple is nothing more than Microsoft in a different suit (though perhaps a little more innovative, but I digress). I guarantee you that if they get the chance to screw you over and get away with it, they will. If you are against DRM of any type, don't get the impression that "Since it's from Apple, it's ok." Of course, if you don't care about DRM (as most people don't), then it really doesn't matter anyway. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12524 http://osnews.com/thread?12524 I am VERY happy at the use of DRM for the purpose they are using it for. I do not want to see Mac OS X on other comptuers besides Macs. It is one of the biggest reasons of what makes a Mac "special" and I don't want any of those other cheap "things" using it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12527 http://osnews.com/thread?12527 >We had an article before this, and it was already discussed. Get over it.

Mod parent up! I agree totally.

http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11431&comment_id=12519 Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12528 http://osnews.com/thread?12528 Well, I am not surprised... In the past few months, I've actually considered going to MacTel instead of WinTel for my next machine... Knowing DRM is included, only gives me one more reason to NOT go Mac quite yet.

However, moves like this can only make you wonder what else they can do to micromanage the platform and keep themselves to as small a market share as possible. Unless you can camoditize the hardware OS X runs on, penetration into the holy grail market of the corporate desktop will be minimal and M$'s share will remain steady no matter how many blunders like Vista they release in the next few years.

I ask people posting here to consider this... DRM could be an integral part of how future OS X releases work... What prevents Apple from including access to DRM via the API to lock down virtually all aspects of the software/hardware you can install/run on your computer? If so, what prevents M$ from doing the same thing? What prevents other software vendors from doing the same thing too?

Someone before said they would not buy hardware where they could not control this... What if vendors stopped making non-DRM hardware? Hardware/OS level DRM has stopped being a question of if, but more of a question of when. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12529 http://osnews.com/thread?12529 "It will also begin the end of freedom on the desktop."

Thats overly dramatic don't you think. The PPC chip might just as well have been the DRM. It restricted you from installing OS X on your PC.

It sounds to me that your just upset that your hopes of running OS X on a PC were shot down and now you're bitter. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12534 http://osnews.com/thread?12534 I will wait till i can judge a final product, not... developer machine test builds... heh Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12536 http://osnews.com/thread?12536 Thats overly dramatic don't you think. The PPC chip might just as well have been the DRM. It restricted you from installing OS X on your PC.

Absolute nonsense. There are any number of ways Apple could've restricted OS X to their own hardware. This isn't about that. This is about Apple integrating the "Trusted Computing" platform into their OS, which they are incidentally using for the above purpose. If that doesn't bother you, fine. But if it does, then you've now lost your only mainstream alternative to this scheme put forward by Microsoft and Intel.

People were (rightly) outraged by the Pentium III serial number debacle. Now the computer companies are backdooring exactly the same technology into all of our computers. Some thought Apple machines would be an oasis against that onslaught. Now we know, for certain, that they won't be.

Trusted Computing FAQ:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

Be for this technology, or be against it. But stop with the red herring arguments. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12537 http://osnews.com/thread?12537 Apple has every insentive to give you that freedom... as long as you buy their hardware.

Its Microsoft that has the insentive to cause PC manufacturers to incorporate such DRM methods because they only benefit from the OS sale. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kellym5) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12539 http://osnews.com/thread?12539 just like every other technology... DRM will be cracked, probably in a very short ammount of time after it's wide inseption

remember..... crackers/hackers are always a step ahead of the software industry.... even if it is a hardware feature

point is..... this will only punish the legal users of OSX, not the pirates who se it illegally, they can try to protect their software/OS all the want... it will never happen on the x86 platform Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12541 http://osnews.com/thread?12541 legal users will legally use it and pirates will pirate it.

i don't care what kind of software/hardware security is added.... it will always.... yes always be cracked, and the crack will be released to the general public and everyone else who has any desire to use it illegally will.

DRM is a joke like every other copywrite/patent measure..... just wait and see. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12542 http://osnews.com/thread?12542 It is also the reason why Macintosh computers will remain a niche product. They could have sold Mac OSX to a lot of people with existing x86 systems, they could have even had a non-support clause for "non-Apple" hardware. Why would they cut out 100% of the existing x86 market simply to ensure smooth hardware support for Mactels? It doesn't makes sense, Linux is doing a fine job of supporting tons of hardware, Apple could as well. Why would Apple want to lose out on a large potential market for their OS and a chance to expand their breadth in the market? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BFGoodrich) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12544 http://osnews.com/thread?12544 Why would they cut out 100% of the existing x86 market simply to ensure smooth hardware support for Mactels?

Because the next day there wouldn't be a Microsoft Office for Mac?

As an aside, your argument has nothing to do with the TC technology being built into Mac OS X (the real source of concern here), it just refers to Apple restricting Mac OS X to their own hardware (which could have been done in any number of ways). That's been known for months. Why are people using this thread to rehash an issue that's been known and discussed for months, and completely ignoring the actual news here? Apple has embraced TC. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12546 http://osnews.com/thread?12546 Sorry for the off-topic comment, it has been re-hashed, I just continually am surprised at Apples stance.

Back on topic, it is NOT very surprising that Apple is looking at DRM and I don't think this is simply to lock OSX onto Mactel boxes. Apple is very concerned about coming out on top in an internet driven media content market and they want to be the first to offer media executives copy-safe "pay per view" streaming content to computer systems. The idea that no one will own the copyrighted material aside from the media companies probably has their hearts all a twitter. Apple is very concerned about this market as this is going to be their bread and butter in the future. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BFGoodrich) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12548 http://osnews.com/thread?12548 I really don't see an issue, though it only seems to punish the legit users. People who want to steal will do it regardless of DRM... they will find a way around it. I love all things Apple, and don't care about DRM I think it may help in ways. It'll get worse before it gets better. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12549 http://osnews.com/thread?12549 What if this DRM-thing is intended "for-this-developer-edition-only" - in order to prevent "this-copy-only" of Mac OS X to circulate freely on the Internet

The Mac Intels will not have BIOS. These developer machines have BIOS - maybe the reason for why this DRM-thing is present in this developer-edition of Mac OS X.

The end-product, Leopard, will then handshake automatically with MacIntels firmware only Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12550 http://osnews.com/thread?12550 I switched from BeOS (i know ) to OSX because i trusted the company.

its not that i have any problem with the DRM but it just the "up-front-ness" (or lack there of) of companies that try to sneak things in under the radar.

these things individually may not seem a significant step, but as they creep more and more into "our space" the more leverage we give them.

if i could switch back to *BSD (of which i was a desktop user of back in 96'-ish range.) i would, but the clean-ness of the mac (ripped from the heart of the BeOS, unix with a GUI) is what keeps me in the main stream market.

I think apple as a company is wonderful, and has some of the most market oriented ideas, and at some times, the best tech ideas around (read: general hardware choices and design choices).

though, the same with others like google i fear there rise to power.

they have most defiantly brought to the desktop something that no other unix could do. however i most defiantly hope they don't use that to destroy that very thing that makes them appealing to ex-BeOS's and other alt. OS users.

enough with the talk.

i say NO on the DRM. and the can quote me on that. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (YNOP) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12551 http://osnews.com/thread?12551 The problem with Apple is that it is always solving the wrong problem. Apple has two problems in the market: 1) it is uncompetitive cost-wise as a hardware manufacturer 2) it is the sole source for Macs, which limits its market share to niche levels. The right solution to these problems is to get the costs out, and to arrange second sourcing. The DRM or any other locking solution is just a way of sacrificing market share in order to avoid dealing with their strategic problems. It has gone on for 10 years now, but it is coming to an end, and at the end of this particular road lies the Amiga.Before you write. We all know, by the way, that Apple is a hardware manufacturer, and makes its money from hardware. Our doubt is not whether this is happening, its whether this is a viable strategy for the next ten years. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12552 http://osnews.com/thread?12552 DRM may not be evil, but men can be...

http://www.linuxvoodoo.com/news/article.php?sid=2008

* Claim number one: Using DRM technology you can immediately lock down the number of times a work sold to a customer can be viewed or used....

* Claim number two: Using DRM you can keep documents from being transferred between machines and they can be tied directly to a piece of hardware....

* Claim number three: DRM is the only way that content will be delivered in the future, so you had better ge invested in it now...

* Claim number four: DRM technology will open up a world of new revenues by forcing more sales from potential customers....

...

There is an old saying that explains why DRM is a bad idea that Mr. Ulanoff would like you to forget,"The customer is always right."

Even when the customer is clearly wrong, and we all know that there are times when we have been wrong, the company must earn their trust by going "above and beyond" to show they value their loyalty and business. What DRM says to the customer is "You are always wrong. You are a cheat, a thief and a liar we do not trust."

That is what DRM is all about. Deny it if you feel the need, but the public will not be fooled forever by those who make these claims. When the public perceives that the market is gouging them, they will make things work differently by any means necessary. Let's face it, the customer is always right, and in a bad time for the economy, the last thing you should be doing is attempting to tell your customers where to get off. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12553 http://osnews.com/thread?12553 CURSE: If you moderate down this comment, you will have the worst luck, your kids will never love you and you will have a sad life forever.

I remember every DRM article which involved Microsoft was received by people like: Microsoft owns you or i don't want Microsoft to control what i can do on PC.

Now its MAC and everyone is like its ok...i am glad i am not a part of this sucky double standard community.

Forever Windows here because it kicks ass and thats why its number 1....yeh baby...let these jealous people go to hell;) Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12554 http://osnews.com/thread?12554 http://osx86.classicbeta.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12555 http://osnews.com/thread?12555 Ok, haven't read all 73 comments, but why did this warrant a poll? We all knew Apple was locking OSX86 to their machines. Now we've found out, that, um, Apple has locked OSX86 to their machines. Where's the mindblowing revelation that would cause me to change my initial decision as to whether or not I would buy? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12556 http://osnews.com/thread?12556 It makes sense they are using on-board DRM for this product, as OSX on x86-generic is one hot idea. Keeping OSX in their little play pen keeps out the masses from replacing Windows on their Dell with OSX. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12557 http://osnews.com/thread?12557 "Apple is very concerned about coming out on top in an internet driven media content market and they want to be the first to offer media executives copy-safe "pay per view" streaming content to computer systems."
(Reply)
Movielink.com and CinemaNow.com show the majority of movies that are being shown on PPV. They have license'd content from Warner Bros, Columbia Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios, Disney/Pixar, MGM, Miramax, Lions Gate, and Paramount. About the only major studio they don't have is New Line Cinema. Movielink has all their movies in either Windows Media DRM or Real Helix DRM. Both are mainly downloadable. CinemaNow just utilizes Windows Media DRM. Both services even have Windows XP Media Center 2004/2005 Interfaces and set-top box media center extenders. Apple would be basically playing DRM catchup, primarly. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12558 http://osnews.com/thread?12558 Nor will I support any company that employs drm in their products. They've definetely lost me as a potential customer. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (crashback) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12559 http://osnews.com/thread?12559 Ok, haven't read all 73 comments, but why did this warrant a poll? We all knew Apple was locking OSX86 to their machines.

Because this isn't about the fact that they're locking it down - it's about how they're locking it down. There are lots of ways to do this. Many of us believe that the method they're using - DRM, in particular the hardware-based flavor of DRM backed by Microsoft and Intel - has tremendous implications for the future.

See my earlier comment:
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11431&comment_id=12... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12560 http://osnews.com/thread?12560 I'd buy it with our without DRM.
As long as the DRM doesn't intrude my normal workflow, I couldn't care less. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (marcof) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12562 http://osnews.com/thread?12562 "Apple would be basically playing DRM catchup, primarly."

How is that justified?

Order of preference:

1) Apple with no DRM: Very do-able

2) Apple with "Software ONLY" DRM: Understandable

3) Apple and hardware DRM: Utterly against

Keep in mind, that a point in time, the hardware based DRM may not get updated or upgradeable. Now what choice does that leave for the user?

Buy a new system. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12563 http://osnews.com/thread?12563 The developer kit Macintels use an Infineon TPM module (DRM and "serial number" identity chip), but it's very likely that the final boxes will use the Intel LaGrande chipset - which has the same functionality built in. What that means, Windows fans, is future PC's will also have the same technology built in.

Fortunately, Microsoft's Longhorn/Vista delays have led to Microsoft pushing off the "Nexus" TPM APIs - essentially, the equivalent of the TCPA kernel extension that has been found in the x86 Mac OS X. This puts us in the funny position where Apple's boxes will have full support for Microsoft's Palladium ("Trusted Computing") lockdown and identity technology long before Windows boxes do.

For those who refuse to see the threat, understand that this technology is not just about restricting Mac OS X to Apple hardware. That could be accomplished in many different ways. By choosing TPM and building kernel support and a kernel interface for it, Apple is installing an accessible, unmodifiable "serial number" into every x86 Mac. They're also building a wall between "trusted" (to the vendor) and "untrusted" (everything you run now, including conventionally DRM'd software like iTunes) code, with the vendor - not you - the final arbiter of what is "trusted." You may trust Apple to only use this power for good, but you owe it to yourself to understand the potential abuses of Trusted Computing technology - right up to government censorship of your private content - before buying a box with one of these chips implanted in it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12564 http://osnews.com/thread?12564 "I mean cmon, is it not fair for a company to dictate how you use their software? When you purchase OSX you are not just buying the disk, you are licensing the right to use the software"

I don't rent software, I buy software and once I've paid for my copy I get to do whatever I want with it as long as it doesn't violate good ethics. If some company wants my money for something and then wants to tell me how to use it then I'm going to buy from someone else. If you need the basic idea simplified consider this: what if your boss told you how to spend the money you earned at your job, it's the same idea. You work for the money you earn, just like you pay for the software and movies you want, why should someone else tell you what to do with it once you've worked/paid for it.

People don't trust DRM because companies will get to use it to tell them exactly how to use the things they already paid for, it's a very easy way to force everyone to upgrade to a newer product when company X wants more money. How about when Disney decides to release updated Disney "Classics", they could just cause the older copy of the movie that you already own to stop working and then if you want to watch it again you have to buy a new copy.

DRM is way too easy to abuse, ignorant fools are the only kind of people who would walk into it without any caution whatsoever. Companies don't care about you, they care about getting your money, and anyone who isn't blind can see that when it comes to getting money, they don't have any trouble ignoring morals. How is it that as soon as Apple decides to use DRM, all of a sudden it's ok and everyone against it suddenly becomes a radical software pirate.

Try reading up on exactly what the whole "Trusted computing" initiative is. Considering what it can do I find it hard to belive that it's uses will be limited to preventing piracy. Choosing to be uneducated as to what DRM and "Trusted Computing" really means is setting yourself up for a very ugly trap, do you really expect the companies that want to put a DRM leash around you neck to tell you the truth about it? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Celerate) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12565 http://osnews.com/thread?12565 but it's very likely that the final boxes will use the Intel LaGrande chipset

Likely ? = this is pure speculations

I doubt Apple will do anything to scare off potential customers. And I doubt Apple will be first to do this. There is no reason why Apple would do this on the Intel Mac's and not on the PPC processor machines. Why now ?

Could the DRM have anything to do with a possible future Windows Vista emulator included in Leopard ? Just an idea. Will the future Mac Intels possibly ship with a fast emulator intended for running Windows Vista in a "safe" environment - a sort of think a head solution Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12566 http://osnews.com/thread?12566 You've got to laugh at all the apple haters actually upset that they now won't find it easy to put a pirate version of OSX onto there PC - as mentioned it was always going to be locked to a Apple produced machine and whether it is this way, with a Firmware chip or with a ROM boot chip, there isgoing to be something in place so it won't work - the only way to run OSX is on a Apple produced machine Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12567 http://osnews.com/thread?12567 Thanks God this is going to keep OS X an exclusive product - I for one wouldn't want every Tom, Dick and Windows-Fanboy pirating OS X to run on their computer then slamming it for not working with their hardware.

And I definately will buy into the new systems - a laptop and desktop. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12568 http://osnews.com/thread?12568 Likely ? = this is pure speculations

You're right - the point about Apple using LaGrande was speculation. But it's irrelevent - whether they use the Infineon chip (as they do in the developer kit boxes) or use the LaGrande chipset, the result is exactly the same. My point in mentioning LaGrande was just to point out to Windows folks that the exact same technology is coming to their world via the chipset.

I doubt Apple will do anything to scare off potential customers. And I doubt Apple will be first to do this. There is no reason why Apple would do this on the Intel Mac's and not on the PPC processor machines. Why now ?

Apple is not the first to ship a TPM module. But - since full support has been dropped from Longhorn/Vista due to delays - Apple will indeed be the first mainstream OS vendor to include full "Trusted Computing" lockdown and identity technology in their operating system. Why introduce it now? Probably because it also solves the "Mac OS X only on Apple hardware" problem - and if they do use LaGrande, it solves it for free (no additional chip required).

Could the DRM have anything to do with a possible future Windows Vista emulator included in Leopard ? Just an idea. Will the future Mac Intels possibly ship with a fast emulator intended for running Windows Vista in a "safe" environment - a sort of think a head solution

Unlikely, since Microsoft has pulled the Nexus APIs from Vista, and because Vista must run on legacy hardware, we know that Vista will not require a TPM. Mac OS X x86 will be the first mainstream OS to require, and fully support, a TPM. Like I said, this is a very funny position for Apple to be in. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12569 http://osnews.com/thread?12569 "Apple only wants to prevent OSX from running on non-Apple systems", "It's illegal to run OSX on non-Apple systems".
Exscuse the language but that's BULLSHIT.
Apple has no right to dictate what I can run the OS I own on (no, it's not leased, that's more bullshit). Sure, they are in their full right to void any warranted should I run it on non-Apple hardware but it is not, and never will be, *illegal* to run it on what you want.
It's about as insane and bizarre as if Barnes and Noble would sell me books and claim it to be illegal for me to read them while not sitting in a Barnes and Noble chair. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12571 http://osnews.com/thread?12571 They have every right - seeing that they Build both the hardware and software

It is you right not to buy it and use something else Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12572 http://osnews.com/thread?12572 Sure, they are in their full right to void any warranted should I run it on non-Apple hardware but it is not, and never will be, *illegal* to run it on what you want.

It may indeed be illegal, if you live in the U.S. - under the jurisdiction of the DMCA, or in a country with similar law. That's because the software will require an Apple-blessed TPM, which your non-Apple hardware won't have - and to get around that limitation, you'll have to circumvent the TPM (with a hack). IANAL, but that's exactly what the anti-circumvention portion of the DMCA makes illegal. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12573 http://osnews.com/thread?12573 Well, they have the right to void any warranties and support if I run it on other hardware but that does in no way make it *illegal*. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12574 http://osnews.com/thread?12574 They have every right - seeing that they Build both the hardware and software

It isn't their right, today at least - if you could get Mac OS X to run on some generic PPC hardware, and owned Mac OS X, that would almost certainly be legal (despite any stipulations to the contrary in their EULA). The situation with x86 Macs will be different due to the TPM module and the DMCA. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12575 http://osnews.com/thread?12575 Agreed 100%! Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (D3M0N) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12576 http://osnews.com/thread?12576 Well, they have the right to void any warranties and support if I run it on other hardware but that does in no way make it *illegal*.

You're wrong. It has nothing to do with voiding warranties or support. It actually has nothing to do with your license for OS X. But if OS X (in the future, for x86) requires a TPM, and you have to hack OS X or the TPM to make it work on non-Apple hardware, *that* act will likely be a crime under the anti-circumvention portion of the DMCA. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12580 http://osnews.com/thread?12580 Could the DRM have anything to do with a possible future Windows Vista emulator included in Leopard ? Just an idea. Will the future Mac Intels possibly ship with a fast emulator intended for running Windows Vista in a "safe" environment - a sort of think a head solution

This doesn't have anything to do with DRM, but a hypervisor solution - like Xen combined with Intel's upcoming virtualization technology (and possibly the hypervisor Microsoft is working on) - will allow you to run both OS X and Windows at full native speeds and switch between them with a keypress. I wouldn't be surprised if the next version of VirtualPC is exactly this. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12581 http://osnews.com/thread?12581 You do know that the DMCA isnt an international legislation, right? So for me, along with most other people on this planet, it doesnt really mean anything.
At least so far.... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12587 http://osnews.com/thread?12587 Stop buying computers with DRM is not enough. The main forces for introduction of DRM technology is the music and movie industry. This means that you should stop buying music or DVDs as well if you are against DRM.

They tell us they wan't to protect their IP. But if I am to license it at current prices I should be able to listen to, or view it any way I please. If that is not possible the licence fees needs to be significantly lower. And why isn't the IP costs and the media costs separated. If it is IP I'm buying when I buy a CD, I should be able to buy media separately if I allready got a license.

As long as these parties doesn't come up with some kind of protection that doesn't limit fair uue I will not buy anything from them. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (unoengborg) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12588 http://osnews.com/thread?12588 So many say they don't mind!?

*sigh* so it has come to this that consumers think it's ok for manufacturers to control what we do with the goods we have bought.

If you buy a car it would seem ridiculous that the manufacturer build it so you only can refill the tank at their stations. That's counter to all sense and the bloody point of capitalism!

So, I would never buy a computer with Palladium chip in it, or an OS with DRM code in the kernel!!

I can't for my life understand why anyone would. This isn't about illegal software, it's about if I can do whatever I want in my own home. Apparantly folks don't see it that way. Guys, you will regret it I'm sad to say.


Just say No. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12589 http://osnews.com/thread?12589 but I bet you down load it for free thou Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12591 http://osnews.com/thread?12591 If Apple want to use DRM technology to make sure that their OS only runs on their own hardware, that would be fine, but only if I can mix and match parts in that computer, or install the same CD on another Mac without having to get some kind of new licence key from Apple.

All systems where you need a new key for a new install is unacceptable. Who knows if the vender is there 10 years from now to give you that new key. It is hard enough to protect digitally stored information over time due to media degradation adding DRM makes it worse, and we can expect that cultural and financial values will be lost if such practices becomes common. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (unoengborg) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12592 http://osnews.com/thread?12592 I'd never have bought a Mac anyway, I'm a happy Linux user on my fast, cheap PC. This DRM stuff just give me one reason to think my personal choice is right, that's all. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jbauer) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12593 http://osnews.com/thread?12593 Typical overreaction to something everyone knew would happen. Apple sells a beautiful, cohesive computing experience, not just software and hardware. So, it's no surprise to me that it wants to keep its OS off of cheap, cheesy hardware that would dilute that experience. Not to mention, cut into their profits. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12595 http://osnews.com/thread?12595 Until we know exactly what they want to do with it, I'll refrain from getting any more involved with Apple Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dukeinlondon) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12601 http://osnews.com/thread?12601 1) Boot a 'new world' PPC Mac

2) Check out Hardware Overview in System Profiler

3) Gasp at the fact that your OS 'knows' the hardware serial number of your Mac

4) Tremble in fear at the fact that for the last 6 years Apple could have used some form of 'DRM' to 'lock' your copy of the Mac OS to Apple-only hardware, but didn't, 'cause there was little need to.

5) Contemplate why not even one of the above posters who've mentioned 'many different ways' Apple could protect their hardware sales, have actually explained even one way of doing it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12602 http://osnews.com/thread?12602 I can't believe that a whole 37% would buy a Mac with DRM (compared to 28% who wouldn't).

I guess the Mac brigade don't understand the evils of DRM, although I'd expect OSnews'ers to be a bit my clued-up.

Would you put up with a car that would only take one brand of petrol as defined by BMW?

Or an iPod that would only play broken AAC files downloaded from Apple, oh wait.... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12605 http://osnews.com/thread?12605 So once every car(computer) is using this technology you want to walk??? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12608 http://osnews.com/thread?12608 It never changes. Apple could take a bowl of cow manure and call it tutti-frutti and all the Apple fan boys would eat it up and call it the best tutti-frutti they'd ever had. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12610 http://osnews.com/thread?12610 Fine, but no body is making you eat it, if we want to buy we will, even if it was real tutti-frutti and tasted the best in the world, you'd still find it'd taste like manure Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12611 http://osnews.com/thread?12611 Agreed. No matter what engineers/programmers come up with next to protect their software, there is always a way around it. Just a though, anyone wondered if maybe one day people will put mod chips in their computer, similar to xbox/ps2. Wouldn't that be a simple solution to this DRM chip? I know people who know next to nothing about hardware/software, downloading xbox/ps2 games, and playing them. Just seems like a waste of time to put so much money into something, when it will simply be cracked. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12612 http://osnews.com/thread?12612 DRM in general that is... It's quite fair that the authors can decide what product they want to sell. If they wish to sell an OS which works for maybe 3 years, that's fine with me.

Also when it comes to Audio and Video, they should be able to choose to sell something limited too, then the consumer is the one deciding if $15 is a fair price for a movie that won't work more than a year. I believe competition would regulate that market.

I don't want everything for "free", and I find DRM in general to be fair. And to those of you Mac-users laughing at people making an uproar, because you think it's because MacOSX then won't run on cheap machines, I've got to ask, can I laugh at you for thinking so?

We're many, simply wanting freedom, freedom to write a document, that won't have to be certified by the global TCPA system to make it useful for others, of course that would be automated in coming editors, you won't feel it, but it's there.

So can I ask you, do you remove cookies? Just because the privacy violation in them is peanuts, compared to the privacy violations of TCPA. With TCPA it can be put into effect that ALL files have to be certified, it won't be like that from the beginning, but it's a potential of the system, and I believe at some point every commercial OS will want to (ab)use that potential. That's why I have to distance myself from any TCPA approaches, whether they be small or bigger. I am against that others have the potential to know about what files I create on my own computer and against that they can see who I've sent them to. That's why they're sneaking TCPA in.

On the other hand, I see a great potential in TCPA within the corporate world, it renders antivirus obsolete (in a perfect world scenario) and problems about leaked firmware, and product images and specs would be a thing of the past (damn, wouldn't it get boring to read IT related news from that time on?). It would in theory make the optimal security.

I think that anyone wanting to sell a product limited by any kind of DRM, should be demanded to put a little folder next to their product, describing in less than 1300 chars, exactly what is limited by the DRM used, so that consumers know exactly what they're paying for. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12617 http://osnews.com/thread?12617 Well, in theory I do agree with you.

Problem is, what about retail licences? Do you want them locked to a specific computer? What if you decide to get a new computer, and want to move your retail license? Ok, we can assume you just need to activate Windows again.

The idea is sound, but it also implies quite a few problems to solve. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Arawn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12618 http://osnews.com/thread?12618 Talk of DRM being used as a tool of extortion by remotely preventing paid-for software from working is ludicrous, not to mention illegal.

Apple as a consumer company is hardly going to alienate its users thus. DRM will be used to protect the Mac OS from piracy, which is fine by me, and to protect the iTunes music/video store, which is also fine by me as I have the right, as I presently do, not to acquire my music from it. I would lay a bet that iTunes on OSX:Intel will still have the option to rip my CDs to unprotected Mp3, and if it doesnt then another app will.

There will always be player software on the Mac for Mp3 music and mpg video, which are the only formats I use, so the DRM won't affect me:

However:

I can use DRM to encrypt my data, or to protect my system from rogue software or hackers. I probably won't though. As with all DRM, it only affects you if you use software that interlocks with it, and I don't, and won't. (except for the OSX anti-piracy stuff. that's fine by me)

Regards

CdBee - fed up of paranoid lies Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12620 http://osnews.com/thread?12620 I agree with your idea about exercising freedom of speech, but awarding him a up vote just because of that wasn't a good idea. I do understand why some thought you deserved down votes.

It is also my opinion that, despite what I said above, you shouldn' have been voted down. Just disregarded. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Arawn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12621 http://osnews.com/thread?12621 Apple: the company that can do no wrong because its users lack any form of critical thinking.

Google for apple, drm and censership or apple, drm, and democracy. The guys, who were to support the creative thinkers, the misfits, the artists have sold us all out down the river.

I like Macs but I will not use one until Apple mends its ways, I suggest you do the same. If enough people boycott Apple's products, they might get it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12623 http://osnews.com/thread?12623 >What are you talking about? That's the problem with using a term like >"DRM", no-one knows what it means. Product Activation is not DRM >by any definition that is relevant to this discussion. The introduction >of trusted computing hardware to Macs will fundamentally change >the industry. It will also begin the end of freedom on the desktop.


DRM is a very broad label. It only stands for Digital Rights Management, e.g. ways to enforce a copyright holder's rights. For example, the macrovision encryption is a form of DRM since it prevents people from doing what they're entitled to do according to fair use rights. Now, DVD protection wasn't very effective and no longer really is a hindrance to consumers except possibly legally. Encrypted AAC files from the iTunes Music Store is another way of DRM. The CD keys of popular online games is yet another.

However, point is, there are endless ways of implementeing DRM. It can be DRM without having something like a TPM/TCPA chip as long as it's in some way limiting the uses of the DRM-enabled product. Also, it is already possible to create very effective DRM-schemes today, without TPM-like chips built into computers.

That said, I'm not very happy about TPM in computers or other electronic devices. While I doubt that future TPM-enabled computers will be limited to run only TPM-signed code, there is a possibility that it will happen and that will obviously be A Very Bad Thing™ for consumers. However, i believe that should that happen, there will be something akin to modchips releasing the appliance from it's TPM-shackles for consoles very shortly afterwards Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12624 http://osnews.com/thread?12624 in addition to my opinions about drm posted above, I would like to say that I will still buy a TPM-enabled Mac. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12625 http://osnews.com/thread?12625 I agree with you.

And I'm sorry too see that some people don't know how to use the down votes. Surely the work of fanatical Apple zealots. I don't see what you wrote to deserve down votes, specially under this site's rules. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Arawn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12628 http://osnews.com/thread?12628 Frankly, I don't see what you wrote that made you earn down votes. Apple zealots again? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Arawn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12629 http://osnews.com/thread?12629 I think this is a good example of using DRM, Apple is selling Macs with OS X, It's part of the product and exclusively for Macs. Thus it should be protected. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12630 http://osnews.com/thread?12630 I've been lusting after a Mac for a while, saving up for a G5. There is one issue that I have to see addressed now that DRM enters the picture.

If Apple locks its own software to one machine and it makes movie rental and buying easier (with transfer to plain DVD for storage/playback on a TV) I'm OK with that. For this use it's just another chip to be ignored if you don't need it and makes dongles, which come with many of the applications I use, a thing of the past.

But I still need the ability to run Linux, BSD, etc. If the BIOS locks out other OS's, I won't buy one. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12635 http://osnews.com/thread?12635 i was thinking about buying another Mac as my next desktop but from an ethical point of few i cannot support Apple anymore. i am buying an Athlon 64(you get more performance anyways) and go Linux. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12636 http://osnews.com/thread?12636 The ideas behind protected code are not bad per se. It's the potential for abuse and scope of control that a company (or companies or government) could have over my computer that is troubling.

It seems strange to me that more people on this forum aren't really bothered by this or maybe I'm missing some important point here. Can we really trust any company to have our best interests at heart even when it runs contrary to profits?

I own a Mac Mini and really like the interface. Due to the uncertainty in the upcoming switch I am staying away from recommending things Mac to my clients (at least for the next 2 years). Not sure what I am going to do after that though. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12637 http://osnews.com/thread?12637 I'm eagerly awaiting the x86 Macs... being able to use Mac OS X full-time (and still boot into XP for playing all those games I've invested in; until they port City of Heroes to OS X, anyway) will be awesome.

If the DRM is used only for authenticating OS X, I can live with it. If it's going to be used as a dongle for preventing my software from running if I copy it to my iBook, then I'll do whatever I can to disable it. I don't live in the US and have no plans to travel there until the fundamentalist regime is overthrown, so I won't be in any DMCA, etc. danger.

The key benefits for me are being able to use a significantly better OS full-time on my home systems, having better hardware with less random behaviour, and (of course) being able to boot into that other OS when I "need" to play a game. Until I'm done all my PC games and go full-on console... which may or may not ever happen.

- chrish Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (chrish) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12653 http://osnews.com/thread?12653 Once again, I don't see what has been said to "earn" neagtive votes... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Arawn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12655 http://osnews.com/thread?12655 3) Gasp at the fact that your OS 'knows' the hardware serial number of your Mac

And you somehow think this compares in any way to the identity technology built into a TPM? How about reading up on Trusted Computing and then playing again?

5) Contemplate why not even one of the above posters who've mentioned 'many different ways' Apple could protect their hardware sales, have actually explained even one way of doing it.

Oh, how about checking for a valid, unique version of the serial number you mention? Or how about a custom BIOS, or OpenFirmware? Or how about the use of a monitor ID chip, mounted on the motherboard instead of in the monitor, as had been rumored? How about any one of a thousand hardware dongle technologies, built into the motherboard?

You can believe that Apple had no choice but to adopt Trusted Computing. But it isn't true. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12669 http://osnews.com/thread?12669 i was thinking about buying another Mac as my next desktop but from an ethical point of few i cannot support Apple anymore. i am buying an Athlon 64(you get more performance anyways) and go Linux.

Hear hear ! That's how to do it !

There are also rumors that the new Apple Macintosh Intel will include an all new Al-Queda-Agent-Detector, built directly into the keyboard (which cannot be removed or replaced) and the graphic card will also mirror your face against an On-Line CIA Database built right into Leopard - but even further - it will also include a brand new operation manual for a Second Russian Revolution (SRR) which will run on the future version of the KGB-II XHy SUB Processor, also built into the new Intel CPUS's

The first prove has already been published as of today. The brand new Mighty Mac Mouse, with a built-in fingerprint detector. This means the 3-Button-Mac-Mouse-Issue (3BMMI) will take on a whole new dimension (not even foreseen by top tech writers) Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12674 http://osnews.com/thread?12674 I will support IT companies using DRM to protect copyrights.

I'm sick of paying money to buy music and videos when others are stealing them.

Maybe we should all steal and let the record companies and motion picture studios go bankrupt?

Moral is there for a reason.

Many people today have no respect for other people or their work.

This is why the world is a mess.


Best Regards,

George Lien
georgelien@email.com Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12677 http://osnews.com/thread?12677 I will support IT companies using DRM to protect copyrights. ... I'm sick of paying money to buy music and videos when others are stealing them.

Agreed. I strongly support the inclusion of RFID chips in all products, including CDs and DVDs, and the mandatory installation of RFID monitoring equipment in all homes. The equipment will automatically detect when stolen items are brought into the home and alert the authorities. That way those who steal will no longer get off scot free, and those of us who don't - well, we have nothing to worry about, right? Only criminals should fear this kind of technology.



Somehow people think this is OK when translated into your computer. I think it's mostly because a computer is just a scary, mysterious box to many people, but obviously that doesn't apply here on OSNews. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12679 http://osnews.com/thread?12679 People aren't worried about OS X piracy, and there are plenty of ways to make that difficult; this will likely only make it illegal not difficult.
People are worried they'll download: Pop Chick D sings "I Want Your Body" from iTMS and it will only let them listen to it 5 times a day.
People are worried they'll put in a DVD successor into their computer and won't be able to run a backup because the market for copying them will be riddled with DMCA based lawsuits about decrypting the disc.
People are worried they'll visit the New York times site and not be able to print articles (that one's extremely unlikely in the near future).

I think all Apple has to do to keep OS X off every other machine is simply not allow driver development for other motherboards for OS X. They just have to call up those lawyers and tell the guys over at Asus: You can't develop OS X drivers. I'm not sure how they'd legally manage it, but who knows.
They may not even have a problem with that anyway. Motherboard companies, other than Intel, may not want to write OS X drivers. And I'm sure Intel would be happy not to given that nice bit of money they'll be getting from Apple for purchasing Intel chips.
Maybe OSS hackers you say? Yes, I'm sure they'll be all over that . Who knows, maybe they will, but I honestly doubt many would want to write drivers for a proprietary kernel. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ma_d) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12684 http://osnews.com/thread?12684 It's not really about piracy is it.. it's about control.

Those IN power (maybe you) want control over those that may not know any better. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12689 http://osnews.com/thread?12689 No comment. No need. This site says it all.

http://2lmc.org/spool/id/4931 Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (barcode) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12700 http://osnews.com/thread?12700 You have been brainwashed by the corporate overlords,
DRM stands for DIGITAL RESTRICTIONS MECHANISM!!!! Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12708 http://osnews.com/thread?12708 No, because Windows is not using it.

but its only a question of time before there is a windows out with support for drm hardware under the hood.

thing is that they dont want to introduce it with fireworks and fanfare. they want to sneak it under your nose.

so while it may be only to stop you from using osx on a non-mac x86, they only need to release a os update (most likely mandatory for using the latest itunes and/or quicktime and so on) and presto, its in there at full force.

it may sound like paranoia but given the actions taken by both goverments and industry lately i would not be surprised if it happens. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (hobgoblin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12712 http://osnews.com/thread?12712 Hardware DRM is unacceptable if it restricts what I can do with the machine it's installed on; specifically, my right of fair use. I don't care if Apple uses DRM to ensure that the Mac OS will only run on its hardware. But if Apple used built-in DRM to prevent me from copying data, I'd be off the platform immediately. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12716 http://osnews.com/thread?12716 No comment. No need. This site says it all.

Actually that site says nothing of substance, and the author appears to misunderstand the issue at hand. Apple is using a TPM and adding support and TPCA API's to the kernel. They've beat Microsoft and the PC hardware vendors to the punch, at their own game. What's so difficult to understand about that? The author comes to the conclusion that many in this thread have - roughly, 'hey, Apple is only using this to lock Mac OS X onto Apple hardware and that's fine.'

Yes, that's fine. But it also doesn't require a TPM module nor TCPA support in the kernel, by any stretch of the imagination. Why is Apple adopting Trusted Computing?

This is no anti-Apple conspiracy theory. The same technology is coming to PC's via the chipset, although full support by Windows is farther off. This is a problem we're all going to have to deal with down the road.

But for some strange reason, when this was framed as what it is - a lockdown and identity technology pushed primarily Microsoft and Intel, with plenty of legitimate uses but also the ability to be abused to frightening lengths - people were up in arms about it. They went ballistic when Intel tried to push primitive serial number technology into the Pentium III, and consumer resistance has led to Microsoft constantly changing names and tactics and perhaps contributed to the delay in introducing Nexus TC API's into Windows (now pushed beyond Vista).

But when Apple uses the exact same technology... when in fact, Apple is the first mainstream vendor to fully support TCPA in their OS... for some reason it's OK. For some reason, anyone who complains is just a thief or a ranter. sigh How incredibly ignorant and short-sighted is that?

Hey, look, I like Apple. I certainly trust them a hell of a lot more than I do Microsoft. But through our complasence we are handing the computer companies a loaded gun. Surprisingly, Apple is the first company to pick it up. They haven't fired it yet, and they may never fire it. But let's discuss the actual issues here, the potential for abuse that a TCPA lockdown and identity system present. And let's ask why Apple is adopting this technology when so many alternatives exist that don't present the same threat. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12726 http://osnews.com/thread?12726 I'm not aganist locking OSX to Mactels, as its their right.

I'm just aganist DRM for giving others control over my hardware and software.

People may think, Oh DRM its good, it keeps me secure, Thats TOTALLY WORNG.

It gives others control over your owned property and treats you like a thief although you pay for every bit of it.

And still, those who pirate it will get away with it all the time. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12738 http://osnews.com/thread?12738 "I am aganist DRM, in PC or Mac. And will never buy a computer that I cant disable (or at least control) this monster."

Agree with this one... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12747 http://osnews.com/thread?12747 please stop tying DRM to piracy Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12748 http://osnews.com/thread?12748 The silent iTunes updates you were refering to did not add restrictions to the original iTunes user agreement. The deal was that iTunes Music Store purchased songs would let you do a certain amount of things, and all the updates still let you do just that.

But even though it's "cool" to be able to override the copy-protection of these AAC songs and easilly convert them to MP3 or to just skip installation of the DRM layer alltogether does not make this right! It's a breach of the agreement on the user part, and if the user didn't want any part of it, he's free to "not" purchase songs in the iTunes Music Store.

Those extra restrictions in silent updates were only implanted because some people abused them, and Apple needed a way to reassure all parties involved (artists, record companies, users, and other stakeholders) that it would still be able to guarantee that the user agreement would still be enforcable.

The consumer always has the choice, but when other people want to abuse theirs by doing something that wasn't agreed in the first place, others are inevitably impacted by this. You're free to buy CD's and rip them for your own personnal archival use (if you're in Canada anyways), buy songs from other services which usually restricts you more than the Music Store, buy iTunes songs, or just do without.

Of course, opening the door to DRMs would be like opening Pandora's Box for some, but the same is for running an unpatched Windows XP system connected to the Internet. I can use a hammer with nails, or with someone else's head... The choice is mine and wether or not I chose to abuse it and face the consequences.

And think about it, just because Apple is using a way to prevent OS X Intel from being leaked and usefully pirated like hell doesn'T mean that it won't be part of all other PC boards within the next 3 years... MS will also want to use it then as they are pushing for it. As far as I know, OS X Intel and PPC doesn't technically prevent you from abusing your "one install" licence and install it in countless other Macs, Intel or PPC, unlike other operating systems we know...

I've been using "dongle" controlled software for a few years, and these companies never abused their license agreements. If they started doing so, I would change software provider in a snap, and their reputation would likely go down the drain along with their revenues if anyone else would be reconsidering as I would. Apple, to me, is no different; as long as they play fair, I'm OK with it. Personally, I don't think that they can afford not to...

So instead of complaining about DRM, I'd start reading those licence agreements more carefully, and let the companies, the protecting instances, and the public know about any abusing clauses before they buy the stuff and get bound by the EULA without a refund. DRM is really just an enforcing medium that will only enforce what you agreed on in the first place. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12754 http://osnews.com/thread?12754 On my blog I did quite a lengthy post about this with some useful links about Trusted Computing articles I read.

The net-net? Apple needs to play ball in order to accelerate their business. Maybe...just maybe...part of the shift from IBM to Intel was more control over *how* DRM was implemented (since IBM has already implemented it within their PPC cpu's). Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12756 http://osnews.com/thread?12756 And I say this as I type this out on my new iBook. People who complain about DRM are tin foil hat wearing alarmists that dont really know anything about it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12765 http://osnews.com/thread?12765 Of course it's never as bad as the tinfoil hat alarmists portray (myself included in this category I guess) but then again it's never as good as the apologists/fanboys hope.

I agree with some of the comments here, it is about knowledge and understanding of what the real issues are.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

- Stephen Hawking Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12770 http://osnews.com/thread?12770 (Hundreds of comments later)

Incredible argument (at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html). Especially:

But isn't PC security a good thing?
The question is: security for whom?

Immediately I realize "security for an extreme minority, one of which I and most I know are not included."

Ya' got me. DRM is officially bad.

i3x171um Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12773 http://osnews.com/thread?12773 ..and no amount of flashy plastic and oooohhh...aaahhhh marketing will make me think otherwise.

Half the fun of learning computing waaaay back when, was in trying to get things to work together that probably shouldn't have. Like installing Windows 95 on a 286 with 4mb of RAM, or shoe-horning OS8 onto a 6800 just for the fun of it all and to help me learn about things that I otherwise wouldn't have known existed.

Being able to do stuff like this is what ultimately got me, and no doubt thousands of others, interested in becoming part of the IT industry in the first place.

But anyway, rock on OSS! Before long it'll be the only choice for anyone that actually wants to fool around with their own PC's, without having to call some support line in India to ask permission to do so. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (wakeupneo) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12793 http://osnews.com/thread?12793 The fact that the two previous comments in this thread have a negative score suggests to me that the new voting system is not working very well. I don't necessarily agree with either of the comments but neither of them use offensive language or are obvious trolls. I shouldn't have to set my filter at -5 in order to even see them.

Please don't vote a comment down simply because you disagree with it. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (whenney) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12802 http://osnews.com/thread?12802 When did Apple announce that the not-yet-released Intel-based Macs have DRM?

Just because there is DRM in the development kit doesn't mean it'll be in the consumer Macs Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mrevelle) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12815 http://osnews.com/thread?12815 "You want to blast the DRM because it "locks" you in? Fine. Change OSs. There is nothing that will stop you from using Linux or Windows."

Okay...

"Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each worker may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!"

I wonder if Apple will ever consider running that commercial again...

(Have we become the evil we deplore?) Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12848 http://osnews.com/thread?12848 If DRM is used for locking out generic/non-apple hardware from installing OSX, I have no problem with it. If DRM is used to authenticate commercial software against the box, I have no issue with that either.

If on the other hand they are doing something naughty, then yes, it's a issue that would affect my desire to get the new hardware. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12875 http://osnews.com/thread?12875 I hope so Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12903 http://osnews.com/thread?12903 ok, so lets pick a few good/bad points at random...

Apple switch to x86 which allows them alternative cpus

This is a bad thing because :
a) they'll never ever be ahead of the game again
b) it's a hideous pandoras can-o-worms architecture
c) it opens them up to x86 kernel hackers

It's a good thing because :
a) Mr Jobs finally gets his dream ticket DRM
b) Apple can now open up iTunes for other media types
c) Apple now have access to far more CPU ranges (xScale for iPod etc)
d) Apple now have access to centrino etc

After using Apple products and being the proud owner of two G4's (and OSX *2) for some years, I've been watching Apple recently change as others here have too.
They've gone from a customer-centric niche market (pandering to techies like me), to a much larger designer-product market in the space of five years.

If you look at my good/bad points above you'll notice the bad points are the kind of things only technical people worry about, sucks to be us! ...and the good points are heavily weighted in Apples favour, it's great to be them!

If a shift to Intel looses 1/2 their stalwart techie fanbase they'll not even flinch, we'll be replaced by a zillion screaming teenagers stamping their feet and pointing at "the one with the Apple on the front" before you can say VelocityEngine.

I'm guessing Apple will launch the new machines with iTunes and iFlicks built-in, tied into some big movie merchandise deal - all DRM'd and ready to suck in cash from all corners of the globe....please drive thru... Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12910 http://osnews.com/thread?12910 what about those of us who have systems that are more expensive then most Macs?

dual opteron 265 system, 4gb registered ddr...

it's ok if it's an expensive system right? Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12920 http://osnews.com/thread?12920 i am not a pirate, and in fact.. i don't care at all about pirated software...

This is a matter of principal.... the world is moving from a state of innocent till proven guilty to guilty till proven innocent.

you people that accept this don't understand what you are doing. You are little by little throwing your freedoms out the window, you are removing the option to make your own choices and letting someone else make those choices for you.

I'm sorry, but there is no company or copywrite or patent that is worth this loss of freedom

I love my freedom and if you value your freedom... don't use drm Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12926 http://osnews.com/thread?12926 As long as it gives more rights to corporations and takes away all my rights, the world needs more American Style freedom! All the pirates, or anyone who says or does anything against a US corporation should be sent to Abu Gharaib Torture Center or the Camp X-Ray Concentration Camp. Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12930 http://osnews.com/thread?12930 if you want to rip on your own country go ahead

i rip on my country all the time (USA), but because I have respect other countries i do not rip on them and talk down about them despite being adamently against some of the things various countries do

besides,.... you don't live here, you don't know jack

come live here for a comple years than judge Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12931 http://osnews.com/thread?12931 adamentally Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12942 http://osnews.com/thread?12942 You *want* to use VS 2005 on OS X? is it that much better than the currect VS offerings? perhaps the *only* benefit to that would be easier to write C# programs for the Mac....but i prefer XCode (yes, i've used the current crop of VS & Xcode) by a long shot. i still have not had the opportunity to cut my teeth on obj-c, but i'm working on it. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12943 http://osnews.com/thread?12943 I don't think he would want to. He has probably seen too much Fox News (website, Esat) and is scared of what he perceives to be a very aggressive and hostile nation. This is unfortunate, most of us are not like this. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12947 http://osnews.com/thread?12947 You really are dumb. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12976 http://osnews.com/thread?12976 Egads! Does this mean my roommates' band can have a modicum of control over how their music is distributed?! That's terrible! Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?12984 http://osnews.com/thread?12984 Egads! Does this mean mac, intel, microsoft, and gov't will be able to control what I see, what I do, what I listen to........ I think so. In addition to that.. not only will they be able to control all that.... but they will aslo be able to see what I do.

Do you want to live in a police state?

And when I say able they mean have the ability, not that it will necesseraly happen (but it will)

but... if we learn from history (and most don't) corporations and gov't will exploit this and take advantage of us consumers.... they will push farther and farther till we lose all our digital freedoms

I don't steel music or software but.... sorry.... nothing is worth this loss of freedom.... if this was an outright war.... I would give my life for these freedoms, these are the necessary freedoms of the future and we are losing them fast. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13000 http://osnews.com/thread?13000 Through the course of history only a few people can see the consequences of human actions. People who are able to perceive abstractions like "freedom" are rare.

From the time of the ancients, most people have been sleepers. They cannot be awakened.

For the sleepers, a PC is just a toy. There will always be build it yourself machines for people who are not sleepers.

It is in the nature of the awakened to "build for oneself". While it is shocking and saddening that vast armies of sleepers do not understand the consequences of DRM, it is also the way it has always been.

The ranks of men are filled with those who are fit for nothing other than slavery.

And on the pragmatic side of things, the planet is in such dire shape that dumb tyranny tech like DRM will not matter.

It is likely that within the next 10 years, we will realize that man has irreversibly killed Earth. Already much of the ocean life is dead, including even the most basic life, plankton.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050802/ap_on_sc/ocean_crisis

Of course the sleepers will never know what happened. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (pravda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13009 http://osnews.com/thread?13009 we are in for a rough road my friend...... i hardly believe it...... someone on here with in IQ over 65.... amazing lol Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13012 http://osnews.com/thread?13012 Quote: "but I bet you down load it for free thou"

Nice assumption anonymous. Music is cultural, as is literature, I personally feel that neither should be copyrightable, or "enforceable", but should remain in the sole ownership of the public domain.

unoengborg is absolutely correct in his/her line of thought. One thing that always makes me ponder, is why are two American organisations controlling world music, and world movies? Why? Why hasn't the US government taken action against the RIAA and MPAA for being monopolistic and anti competitive entities? I can tell you why - money, and bribed politicians. If politicians actually had morals, and spines, things might be a bit better. Being a politician in this day and age is all about money and power, not representing the people.

Dave Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (morgoth) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13013 http://osnews.com/thread?13013 Quote: "i rip on my country all the time (USA), but because I have respect other countries i do not rip on them and talk down about them despite being adamently against some of the things various countries do "

So, you're saying that the original poster cannot "diss" the US, or US policy because he/she doesn't live there? Whatever happened to freedom of speech, and freedom of thought? This is obviously more of the US style "freedom" that's being constantly imposed on the rest of the world. Rather sad.

Dave Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (morgoth) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13019 http://osnews.com/thread?13019 lol dave...... i'm all about freedom.... but i'm also not an ass hole..... how would you like it if i ripped on your country saying it was led by a tyranical gov't and all the while not knowing what the hell i was talking about (which people who don't live here have no idea about)

I keep my mouth shut because i treat others the way i expect to be treated myself and i don't judge others so i will not be judged (freedom while maintaining decency,.... not ripping others to shreads just because i "have the freedome to", and not talking out of my ass)

and why do you ask.... because i am trying to keep others from speaking out.... no,.. because i am a decent person and i don't try to make others look bad to cover up my shortcomings.

and oh yeah...... THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL FORUM

and yet another thing..... just because you have the right to do something dosen't make it right.....

to me this says that because i have some common decency, treat others with respect, and stick up for what is right that i will be labeled as a "evil american"..... I'll tell you what... that's total crap, quit your stereo typing and treat me like an equel..... i do the same for you... Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (re_re) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13020 http://osnews.com/thread?13020 Politicians have always been about money and power. They don't add value to a society, so their role will always be corrupt and parasitical.

Today's use of the word "democracy" is hardly related to the original Athenian democracy. And people are so brainwashed you could present the democracy of Athens and it would not be accepted as a democracy by the stolid masses of today.

We live in a society of zombie people who are woefully ignorant and getting dumber every day.

There is no "cure" for this. The movie plays, the people overpopulate, the people overpollute, the planet dies, and the worshippers of the death god at long last relax into their paradise of oblivion. The shining blue planet is gone. At least it will then match the other two planets that the virus called "humanity" has killed. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (pravda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13106 http://osnews.com/thread?13106 Quote: "how would you like it if i ripped on your country saying it was led by a tyranical gov't and all the while not knowing what the hell i was talking about (which people who don't live here have no idea about) "

Want my take? I couldn't give a shit if you diss my country, cos in all reality, Australia is no better than the US. The dishonourable John Howard, a poor excuse for a MP, is a right bastard, and I'd happily spit on his grave. He's one more to fuck Australia up, screw the poor, the powerless, and empower the rich, and the powerful with even more power; and I hate him, and his government, and all that it stands for. So, as, you can see, you can "diss" my country, and my politicians, and quite frankly, I wouldn't give a fuck. Freedom of speech is just that - the freedom to air your views. Of course, in the US, speaking out against the current regime is a big NO NO, you're suddenly unpatriotic, and a potential "terrorist".

Quote: "THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL FORUM"

Operating systems are political, whether you like it or not.

Quote: "quit your stereo typing and treat me like an equel..... i do the same for you..."

So, what, in effect, you are saying, is that I should shut my mouth up because it doesn't correspond with your thoughts, and/or makes you feel angry because I don't like your country's government?

Sorry, you lose, I don't think so. I'm not going to be bullied by the likes of you, or anyone else. As someone else has said (and correctly so I might add), this world is full of brainless zombies, who go along, day to day, doing what the powers that be want of them. They live without thought, they take without thought, and they destroy without thought. You can admit that, or you can hide from that truth, either way, it doesn't stop it from being the truth. It's amazing, mankind is the only species I see fucking each other over to make a buck. It's the only species on the planet that makes war on others.

You can keep your righteousness, I'll keep my freedom, and my freedom of speech thanks.

Dave Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (morgoth) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13114 http://osnews.com/thread?13114 I suspect a few people posting here to have in interest in this dirty DRM buissness and to hope trying to keep the sheeps quiet. I mean, there can't be people that stupid, that's just...

Anyway, as for all the other (genuinely clueless) people who do not mind that their computer will become a real threat to their privacy I have two words to say: hardware dongle. Go check that out, it's nothing new, really.

Ah yeah but DRM is so much cooler, it has way more (r)s, (c)s and tm's... I waaaaante two bi haîpeuh.

No chances left to ever see me buying Apple (well, we don't need you in the first placeee) and you can be sure that I can live without OSX. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?13137 http://osnews.com/thread?13137 My fellow Anonymous Poster,

For starters, let me thank you for being the first poster to actually explain a number of the 'many different ways' that Apple could actually protect their hardware sales. I sincerely believe that most of the posters here aren't actually aware of any, and are making comment without any 'real' understanding of the implications of Apple's move - sinister or otherwise... thus the 'Moron' call.

Secondly, I actually don't believe that Apple had no choice in adopting Trusted Computing - I believe they simply took the easiest, cheapest and most convenient (for them) option available, and that's it. They're moving to Intel anyway, the framework is already there, as a PC manufacturer they're uniquely placed to take full advantage of it and it costs them fuck-all in R&D to do so.

Thirdly - will they use it for some nefarious ends? Dunno. I've productively and happily used Mac OS-based systems almost exclusively for the last decade, but that doesn't mean I naively believe that Apple Corporation are any less of a pack of profit-driven ruthless arseholes than Microsoft Corporation - I just find they've got better products and slicker marketing. Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?14128 http://osnews.com/thread?14128 That's being done already. Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?14131 http://osnews.com/thread?14131 Well, pretty soon you won't be able to buy a new computer. So I'm pretty sure that you will change your mind if you want to keep up. Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?14921 http://osnews.com/thread?14921 http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/log/DD25062005.gif Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments