“Seigo has been working with the KDE project for some time, and is now working on the KDE Plasma project, a new direction in the way that users will work with the desktop. We asked Seigo if he’d spend a little time talking about the new project, and the direction of KDE, and he kindly obliged. Read on for an interesting look at what’s going on with KDE.”
Another power features for the KDE. 🙂
Number of occurences were they spelled Qt right: 0
😉
And they had dconf instead of DCOP.
Problem there is that dconf is a really different project
Number of occurences were they spelled Qt right: 0
😉
where
😉
Its funny the progression of news stories. This store was first posted on Aaron Seigo’s blog. The it made it to DotKDE. And now its one OSNews. If it is big enough it will then make it to Slashdot.
BTW, The interview is worth reading. KDE has some cool things coming.
Can someone tell me how to find actually usability studies on openusability.org? Either they’re not there, or the name is a misnomer…
There are public forums for each project. For example, for kpdf I found the following: http://openusability.org/forum/forum.php?thread_id=325&forum_id=304
entitled “First usability inspection”.
Replying to self: And for other programs the section “Usability Reports” is actually filled, for example for kivio: http://openusability.org/reports/?group_id=44
I am using Gnome, but hey i am really excited by the steps the KDE project is taking – can’t wait to see Plasma, Tenor and cleaning up of the interface … might give it a go then. Well done go for it !
Are there any examples of the UI they plan on using? I have to get my usability trolls ready
Btw qt 4.0.1 is out.
http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/00000214.html
Changelog:
http://www.trolltech.com/developer/changes/changes-4.0.1.html
yey
After looking at what plasma does, I have to say I’m not impressed. It reminds me a lot of Symphony OS, which I don’t like at all. The problem is real–the desktop does need to be actually used for something instead of an icon bucket, but their approach to solving this problem seems incredibly naive to me. They’re basically stuffing in new features instead of factoring and extending current ones; eventually the whole thing will collapse under the unstable foundation.
-bytecoder
Why all that fear?
Do you know that these are just ideas yet?
Do you know that you can get involved?
Do you know that you can post your ideas to prevent that what you fear?
Why keep all those ideas locked while you have the freedom to express those ideas?
If you are so very certain that this will fail, then why not write a great text explaining those reasons and, why not, tell how to solve them with your ideas?
You are free to do so.
If you can’t come up with specific points to why the current ideas would fail, then I don’t get where all this fear comes from.
I know they’re ideas, and I’m expressing my opinions about them. I’m not particularly good at writing things, but, ironically, I’m working towards my ideas as we speak. Specifically, I’m working to integrate the linux kernel into a more coherent directory structure, along with writing a completely new environment–new DE, new language, new applications. I don’t want to bore you with the details, but hopefully it will be pretty usable when I get some of it done in a year or two.
-bytecoder
“Specifically, I’m working to integrate the linux kernel into a more coherent directory structure, along with writing a completely new environment–new DE, new language, new applications. I don’t want to bore you with the details, but hopefully it will be pretty usable when I get some of it done in a year or two.”
hmmm… I wish you good luck and long life. Many have had such ambitions, and few have succeeded. Does your project have a name?
Well thanks. It is a very large project, but I don’t see myself quiting–I’m very excited about it. I don’t have a project page up or anything, but I’m currently going by the name HeliOS (pronounced he-lee-ose); I figure I might as well get something up and running before bringing it out into the open.
-bytecoder
“Specifically, I’m working to integrate the linux kernel into a more coherent directory structure, along with writing a completely new environment–new DE, new language, new applications.
Is this new directory structure Gobolinux-like?
I suppose–it’s roughly based around the same principles. This is basically what I’ve got so far:
/ –
Applications
System –
Kernel
Libraries
Services
Temporary
Utilities
Users –
bytecoder –
Documents
Images
Music
Settings
There will be no package manager; instead, application bundles would be used, a la NeXT. The user simply drags a self-sustaining application into the /Applications folder to install it, and deletes it to uninstall. I should point out that, to the user (bytecoder), the filesystem is presented like this:
Applications
Settings
Help
Documents
Images
Music
Both Settings and Help are smart folders, which collect the settings program and help files from each application bundle and lists them to the user.
This just scratches the surface of what I’m planning on implementing, but I don’t have the time to describe the rest.
(I didn’t proofread this much because I’m tired, so ignore any gramatical/spelling errors)
-bytecoder
Ugh, the spaces ( ) showed up fine in the preview…
well, you seem to have a distinct vision for your project and it seems like a good one, if you would expound a little more on the details of the project perhaps you could get some other developers involved, perhaps me.
I’m planning on waiting before getting other people involved, because doing so will require a lot more formality, which would slow down progress immensely early on. I figure it would be better to get a solid base done, then release it to the public and grow it.
-bytecoder
sounds good
Be sure to post on here when you are ready to have the community help, I will be the first in line to help out.
If you have the time, please do “bore” us with the details
KDE 4 and Reiser4 (wide use of): what a great OS!
Finally something interesting on that site! I really though openusability.org was under construction so nothing was up…am I the only one?
I knew for sure that actual work was being done by the openusability folks (from blog postings, news on dot.kde.org, and so on) but I didn’t know the state the openusability.org site was in. So I took a look and found what I was looking for…
The problem is real–the desktop does need to be actually used for something instead of an icon bucket
Why? Who is this going to benefit, except those who run their desktops at resolutions of 1600×1200 or higher? I personally keep a few folders on the desktop, simply because it’s easily accessible from the Open/Save As dialog boxes (Windows), but ohter than that, my applications windows are covering it 98% of the time, so putting all this crap behind everything I am already working on is a waste of resources to me. I have the taskbar raised one level (and would probably do the same in KDE), so anything to beef that up is a plus in my book.
Well, part of the idea for Plasma is that you’ll be able to bring your desktop “to the front” and then send it away again – rather like the Mac Dashboard but seemingly more generic.
AFAICT the core plan is to unify “dashboard-like” functionality with the desktop and the taskbar to get the same functionality but with greater flexibility. In that sense, this part of Plasma is evolutionary rather than revolutionary (not that it’s a bad thing).
Well my resolution is “just” 1280×1024 and I can use my desktop just fine, I’d argue that’s not so rare anymore. One reason I like GNOME is, that I can keep most windows relatively small, which allows me to work more object oriented (as opposed to application oriented). On Windows, most applications are much more designed to live in a vacuum with huge MDI container-windows and similar monstrums.
I’m personally quite happy with using the desktop as a virtual workspace and just dumping (temporary) files on it, but I’ll remain curious what ideas KDE comes up with. The idea to combine the desktop and panel into one entitity is definitely a step forward. The current separation feels artifical and is not extremely useful.
Since transitioning from Windows to Linux I’ve always preferred KDE over other desktop GUI like Gnome. Though what’s planned for KDE 4.0 is really exciting. Putting forward projects that are not only the best suited tools for Linux users but also provide more eye candy with out being a resource hog is better for the user base. A clear indication developers are listening to KDE users.
a new Miguel de Icaza has emerged from the KDE camp. The community definitely needs more Desktop/GUI minds on a fulltime payroll. Although it is way too early to even speculate about this Plasma thing (the mockup includes quite a few explicit “maybe/maybe not” sort of statements), it seems like there’s a focus here: let’s do useful things with eye-candy.
I don’t own a Mac, but I’ve seen some friends use Dashboard, and it seems like it is way easier to do useless things with it (i.e. check the weather) than it is to do useful things with it. I think it would be great to have a hotkey (or similar) that brings up a full-screen, highly-context-sensitive console for managing your session in a high-level sense: dealing with tasks (that probably span multiple applications), related documents, environments, and notifications.
How often have you, for example, compulsively switched virtual desktops while waiting for something to finish, be it a download, a build, a script, an expected email arrival, etc.? It should be easier to multitask in your desktop environment. In this sense this Plasma concept appeals to me ideologically.
Now that the “desktop environment” aspects of KDE seem to be moving towards harmonious usability, it would be appropriate for the application stack to follow suit. Using some KDE apps for the first time is like trying to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics: “uh, it’s a man pointing in both directions, and next to that there’s a magnifying glass with footprints around it, and then a really big down arrow… what does it mean?”
Quote:
” Using some KDE apps for the first time is like trying to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics: “uh, it’s a man pointing in both directions, and next to that there’s a magnifying glass with footprints around it, and then a really big down arrow… what does it mean?”
Ohh come on.
Bad programs is not something specific for KDE.
Even extremely good programs with a high level of usability can be difficult to use for the first time.
Ohh come on.
Bad programs is not something specific for KDE.
No, but it’s much more common.
Even extremely good programs with a high level of usability can be difficult to use for the first time.
By definition, programs with a good user interface usually have a medium to low learning curve. It’s very rare when a well designed program has a high learning curve.
-bytecoder
>By definition, programs with a good user interface usually have a medium to low learning curve. It’s very rare when a well designed program has a high learning curve. <
any powerful program aside from a cd burner, web browser, or a word processor generally has a somewhat steep learning curve for an average user. However, these are what most average users use on a daily baisis
If you took an average user and ploped them down at a comp running adobe premiere and photoshop and told them to edit a video or photo, I find it hard to believe that they would just click their way around and magically edit the video/photo to a decent standard.
the same goes for most any software that has any ability to do anything out of the norm.
the applications that the average user uses on a regular baisis are exceedingly easy to use on kde or gnome.
Apps like Softimage|XSI or Alias Maya have legendary well thought out usability and interfaces. But that does _not_ mean you’ll be able to get anything done without reading the manuals or some tutorials – because some people don’t think good usability is, like, get simple crap done quickly and without learning, while advanced stuff is hidden (like Gnome’s gConf) or missing. For those people, and for me, good usability means: once you get the concept, know the structure and shortcuts, you’ll get complex stuff done _real_ fast… 🙂
amen brother
Apps like Softimage|XSI or Alias Maya have legendary well thought out usability and interfaces. But that does _not_ mean you’ll be able to get anything done without reading the manuals or some tutorials – because some people don’t think good usability is, like, get simple crap done quickly and without learning, while advanced stuff is hidden (like Gnome’s gConf) or missing. For those people, and for me, good usability means: once you get the concept, know the structure and shortcuts, you’ll get complex stuff done _real_ fast.
Once you get the concept, know the structure and shortcuts, gconf-editor becomes very easy to use.
You have to draw a line between specialized applications for the professional sector and tools which exist to get a particular job done. Nobody wants to lose valuable time while working on Project X, because one first has to figure out how to get a simple ISO image burned. Even expert users regularly have to accomplish tasks they never had to do before, and then intuitiveness and ease of use are key.
Also, powerful and efficient interfaces have nothing to do with the amount of customizability or the amount of buttons on the toolbar. A good example would be Blender. It doesn’t have a whole lot of customizability and basically forces you to learn the obscure way it’s meant to be used. But that’s not a bad thing, because it’s actually a very well thought out and powerful interface.
Generally, I’d say good usability means thinking things through instead of just piling features on top of each other. Everything else depends on what kind of users you are targeting and what you want to enable them to do.
“For those people, and for me, good usability means: once you get the concept, know the structure and shortcuts, you’ll get complex stuff done _real_ fast… :-)”
Sounds like the command line.
> > “For those people, and for me, good usability
> > means: once you get the concept, know the structure
> > and shortcuts, you’ll get complex stuff done _real_
> > fast… :-)”
> Sounds like the command line.
Why not? A *good* command line is one example. But it’s the same game as with GUIs. There are shells or configurations thereof that are more usable than others (working cursor keys, correct terminal settings).
It doesn’t mean that CLI > GUI or the other way around. They’re different and have different uses and audiences.
Crap, it seems like I didn’t construct my post in order to stimulate *worthwhile* discussion…
So more directly, what do you think about Aaron Seigo being the next Miguel de Icaza? Does this mean that a laundry list of Linux vendors missed the boat by putting their weight behind GNOME? Does Plasma seem broadly applicable to both consumer and corporate desktops?
I’ll go first:
1) My money’s on Miguel in a FOSS celebrity deathmatch. He’s small but scrappy.
2) No, the only way you miss the boat in free software is by not getting on the freakin’ boat.
3) No, unfortunately eye-candy has a bad reputation for being unproductive.
Why all the time KDE is mentioned as Linux desktop environment? I use KDE with FreeBSD and it runs actually faster than with Linux kernel. Linux is for loosers and masochists. IMHO.
Why all the time KDE is mentioned as Linux desktop environment? I use KDE with FreeBSD and it runs actually faster than with Linux kernel. Linux is for loosers and masochists. IMHO.
This all sounds great, but how much extra ram should I buy and what kind of new cpu should I look for?
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if such feature-fest enhancements give rise to further optimizations when the code is revisited? Call me old school, but I think each component of KDE should have a “target usage” or “resource limit” which their devs need to stick to. So if it’s desirable to have new features to make things look nicer, clean up some code and make some room.
I’ve seen some pretty amazing things come from such practices in the past. Just a thought….
> This all sounds great, but how much extra ram
> should I buy and what kind of new cpu should I look for?
The Plasma devs keep performance in mind:
See
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2005/07/moving-web-servers-what-plasma-n…
while gnome developers are fighting every day to use
an high level language (python vs java vs mono )
Kde developers are more pragmatic and they all have a shared vision.
It is a Good idea to seperate KDE from Linux.
Is there a good KDE build for Windows 2000 for example? Win2K still runs well on older hardware and supports a lot of hardware features a lot better than Linux.
(Not out of the box perhaps like Linux does, but drivers are generally downloadable from vendors web sites, or even come on disk with new hardware! e.g graphics cards with full openGL support, Wireless cards, DVD writers, Scanners and so on – many of these things dont work or are incredibly hard to get working on Linux, even worse on BSD..)
WinKDE would allow people who enjoy running a stable operating system with good driver support to experience an open source Desktop experience.
Is there a good KDE build for Windows 2000 for example? Win2K still runs well on older hardware and supports a lot of hardware features a lot better than Linux.
It also attracts worms better 🙂
Not if you know what you’re doing. To use Linux you must know very well what you’re doing anyway, so that point is moot.
I’ve been using MacOSX Tiger for about 3 weeks for home use, on an old 600MHz G3 nonetheless and I must say I am impressed… However, one of the least useful features to me is Dashboard… Yeah, I like widgets and what they do but that’s about it… There’s no value added for the resources they use on my machine and having to press F12 to see them is annoying at best.
If I understand this correctly, Plasma is just like Dashboard… Useless eye candy… What about this can’t I not get from a docklet in WindowMaker with its well established UI? Why not put something useful like active folders? Or work more on a true UI replacement to the old files/folders/desktop metaphor??? Or something that works just as well as Apple’s Spotlight in linux…
Will this change the way I work day to day, probably not… Will I like the nice shiny/antialiased pictures, of course… But I will get no use out of them just like dashboard or konfabulator.
If I understand this correctly, Plasma is just like Dashboard… Useless eye candy…
No, it’s a lot more than that. Plasma encompasses the desktop, kicker, notifications and applets like Super Karamba, and a contextual search and linkage system (Tenor). It is an awful lot more than just a Dashboard.
By the way, what’s happened to Gnome’s Dashboard these days?
Or work more on a true UI replacement to the old files/folders/desktop metaphor???
It’s being done, but it’s not practical do just move to some other way of working because people work with file and folders today.
But I will get no use out of them just like dashboard or konfabulator.
It’s not Dashboard and Konfabulator. It’s about much more and about how all these desktop components hang together. That’s what real usability is about, not just human interface guidelines.
By the way, what’s happened to Gnome’s Dashboard these days?
You mean, this one?
http://24.15.37.191/~bytecoder/screenshots/8-11-05.png
I wonder how well Plasma interfaces with Gnome or if there are similar Gnome projects underway. Lets hope Gnome and KDE developers are getting a bit more determined about converging the two so we finally have a unified Linux desktop.
I think we can only hope the Gnome and KDE developers will allow their applications to work better in the ‘other’ desktop environment. the KDE devs did some work with the GTK-QT theme engine, altough this is just about the looks. and afaik scribus (or was it some other app?), altough using the GTK toolkit, does have some integration in KDE like KDE file open dialogues, and support for the KIO slaves.
Scribus is a Qt app.
Maybe you mean Sodipodi.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/08/15/kde_responds_were_not_scare…
KDE might lack the PR attack dogs, spin teams or budgets of the rival Gnome project, but maybe it doesn’t need them.
“It’s more talk than substance,” says KDE developer Richard Moore of the new Gnome Foundation, backed by Sun and friends. “But maybe the substance will come later at LinuxWorldExpo,” he told The Register.
Oh boy, your link is 5 years old! And KDE still lives and prospers despites all trolling during last five years.
Oh boy, your link is 5 years old! And KDE still lives and prospers despites all trolling during last five years.
I think that was the point. I can’t believe that’s five years ago. It could have been written yesterday.
Yes, I think what I said in that interview stands up pretty well – there wasn’t really any effect on KDE at all. I’m not sure how much effect there was on Gnome in the long term either.
By the way, what’s happened to Gnome’s Dashboard these days?
It’s either complete and bugfree or abandoned, since according to Gnome CVS nothing has happend the in the last 15 months to 2 years. Looks like a hype and drop project. A minor part of it lives on in Beagle.
It’s either complete and bugfree or abandoned, since according to Gnome CVS nothing has happend the in the last 15 months to 2 years. Looks like a hype and drop project. A minor part of it lives on in Beagle.
Actually, I was investigating it a while back, thinking much the same thing. The focus of the project has certainly switched to Beagle, though I’m not sure if that’s an abandonment of Dashboard, or just a matter of focusing on getting the search component working first.
I really like thinking on the future, Imagine all this new projects, all the work on freedesktop projects, this include the modularization of Xorg, the upcoming release of Xorg, the new Reiser4 filesystem, KDE 4.0, Cairo, Glitz, E17, InitNG, and all the new projects that are coming, all this will be amazing
I can see it
I think search is the most important factor.
After using OS X Tiger with spotlight, I find it really difficult and tedious sometimes in KDE to go hunting for files.
I think the OS X interface to search is a bit weak, personally. But I really like the CMD+SPACE hotkey to searching in OSX; there certainly needs to be something like that. Then of course, a second, more powerful search interface for doing more comprehensive searches – and then saving them into a smart folder.
I have 250+GB of data on my linux desktop, and 40GB on my OS X laptop, so I feel the pinch of bad data organisation on my desktop much more.
The other thing KDE needs to think about is to (by default) provide ONE solution for each task an average user might like to accomplish. e.g. one of each of the following
– Music player (at least as good as itunes – i.e. amaroK. Can also RIP CD’s. No need for a separate ripping program)
– Media Player (ties into GStreamer backend for video playback)
– Photo Management app a la iPhoto (including basic editing, like Red Eye reduction, etc).
– Groupware (kmail, korganiser, kopete, address book)
– Office (KOffice)
– Text Editor (KWrite)
– Small selection of _quality_ games.
– CD/DVD burning tool (k3b for more advanced projects, but basic support for burning files/iso’s should be in Konqueror – burning audio/mp3 disks should be in amaroK).
… and then of course, all apps should be able to share data. For example, if doing a slideshow in the Photo app, you should be able to choose a playlist from amaroK as the music (a la iLife on Mac OS X).
The other thing KDE needs to think about is to (by default) provide ONE solution for each task an average user might like to accomplish. e.g. one of each of the following
But it already does …
– Music player (at least as good as itunes – i.e. amaroK. Can also RIP CD’s. No need for a separate ripping program)
Useless, no need for that, as kdemultimedia (I think) already provides you with a KIOSlave to do that : when you click on your popping CD icon, you see several directories (WAV, Ogg, MP3, …) which contains all your tracks encoded and even one file containing all the CD tracks. Just drag and drop, it’s accessible from Amarok too !!
No need for a ripping program ! The preferences for the encoding are in KDE preference dialog.
– Media Player (ties into GStreamer backend for video playback)
My wife uses KMPlayer, but there is Kaffeine which is very good too. And both can use gstreamer or Xine, that you can select at runtime.
– Photo Management app a la iPhoto (including basic editing, like Red Eye reduction, etc).
Digikam is already there and so powerful.
– Groupware (kmail, korganiser, kopete, address book)
Kontact !!! Do you actually use kDE ?
– Office (KOffice)
– Text Editor (KWrite)
– Small selection of _quality_ games.
Already there obviously. The last Ksirk is out BTW, and slibo still works in latest KDE (perhaps one day I will dust it off as it seems no longer cared upon by its author).
– CD/DVD burning tool (k3b for more advanced projects, but basic support for burning files/iso’s should be in Konqueror – burning audio/mp3 disks should be in amaroK).
All of this have been there for a long time. You should read the docs that come with KDE some time. The icon is right there on the panel.
– Music player (at least as good as itunes – i.e. amaroK. Can also RIP CD’s. No need for a separate ripping program)
Why the hell? Why would I have to waste my resources for a full-blown audio player when I only want to rip CDs? But I agree that amaroK needs CD-ripping possibilities.
– Media Player (ties into GStreamer backend for video playback)
And why gstreamer, why not xine?
– Photo Management app a la iPhoto (including basic editing, like Red Eye reduction, etc).
It already has – digikam.
– Groupware (kmail, korganiser, kopete, address book)
Kontact.
– CD/DVD burning tool (k3b for more advanced projects, but basic support for burning files/iso’s should be in Konqueror – burning audio/mp3 disks should be in amaroK).
Both konqueror and amaroK had those features for a long time.
So, most of your arguments are missed.