http://www.osnews.com/story/12153/Native_GTK_for_Mac_OS_X_in_the_Works Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2013, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Sat, 25 May 2013 01:38:28 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://www.osnews.com/thread?41309 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41309 A dream come true~ Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (neowolf) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41312 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41312 sweet!!! Does this mean that Ximian's OO.o can be run on OS X out of the box? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Who is That) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41317 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41317 Another good reason to use GTK+. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Yuske) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41321 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41321 Good work! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41348 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41348 It's really great that someone has finally ported GTK. I hope someone will create a native Mac theme for GTK, just like Wimp for Windows.

@Who is That: No, you won't be able to run Ximian's OO.o on OS X (without X11), because OO.o is deeply tied to X11. It uses GTK for the widgets, but most of it doesn't use GTK. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41349 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41349 I think Ximian's OO.o (and OO.org itself) don't use GTK. Ximian just included a few font tweaks and Gnome icons in the app to help make it look native, but it's not. It's their own toolkit developed back in the day when Windows 3.11 was around. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41354 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41354 Well that just shits all over the apple HIG. Whilst this makes writing X-P apps easier, it doesn't make them any easier for the user to use. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41364 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41364 Just kidding. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41368 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41368 I mean really, is Windows support so much to ask? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41370 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41370 I hope someone will create a native Mac theme for GTK

They did, but Apple threatened them, and it was removed from popular theme sites, but I'm sure you can still find it.

Well that just shits all over the apple HIG.

Actually the Gnome HIG is very similar to Apple's. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41374 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41374 I mean really, is Windows support so much to ask?

Probably not. In fact, it's been around and stable for quite some time. So definitely not.

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gladewin32/gtk-win32-2.6.10-rc1.... Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41375 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41375 Actually the Gnome HIG is very similar to Apple's.

But on different platforms, they are entirely different things. Having a non Aqua app on OSX is non-HIG no.1 (and vice-versa) Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41389 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41389 Why would anyone in their right mind want to use GTK on the Mac? GTK widgets are butt-ugly. They can't even compete with QT-KDE on Linux and they want to port that abomination to the Mac. eeeuuwh!!! My question is why? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41392 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41392 Well that just shits all over the apple HIG.

Actually the Gnome HIG is very similar to Apple's.

Too bad that GIMP doesn't really follow *any* form of HIG.

This is cool, but I'm excited about stuff other than GIMP... as GIMP's paradigm is just straight up broken IMO. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jeffbax) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41395 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41395 Maybe it's because GIMP isn't a Gnome app. It's a GTK app. There's a difference. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41396 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41396 True, but have you ever used GTK+ applications in Windows? They look completely out of place. Not only that, but they got an
*horrible* redraw rate (resizing windows, putting one over another, etc). I have used GIMP and Gaim for a while and I stopped since they are alien to the rest of the environment. Last time I tried them (about 4 months for GAIM, last week for GIMP), they don't even use the Win32 standard dialog boxes!

In my opinion, the Win32 port was done as an afterthought. I guess the original poster meant: is _decent_ Windows support so much to ask? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Wrawrat) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41405 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41405 Great News! Yay!! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41410 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41410 Sigh, notice they havn't used the global menu bar? That's freakin' lame. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (QuantumG) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41421 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41421 i'ts been said here before: Gtk now has a native windows theme: Wimp

Try installing the latest Gaim or something...

Anyway this is (hopefully) very good news! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 03:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41423 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41423 It is extremely alpha quality right now. I'm sure it'll be made to fit in with the rest of the system once they get important stuff done like, you know, actually supporting every widget. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 03:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41426 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41426 It looks good with the latest wimp. It looks a lot better than the horrid mess that is Swing. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 03:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41430 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41430 "True, but have you ever used GTK+ applications in Windows? They look completely out of place."

These look out of place?

http://gtk-wimp.sourceforge.net/screenshots/gfx/inkscape-winxp.png
http://gtk-wimp.sourceforge.net/screenshots/gfx/Gimp-WinXP.png

Microsoft products (Office 2003, WMP 10, etc) look far more out of place than GTK+. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 04:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (carbon-12) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41437 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41437 OK, I use both Linux and Mac OS X, but I thought it was generally agreed that OS X widgets and screens are far more graphically sophisticated (drop shadows for windows, for instance) than GTK apps. So isn't this a step BACKWARD for that platform? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 04:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41439 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41439 They did, but Apple threatened them, and it was removed from popular theme sites, but I'm sure you can still find it.

What a load of codswallop - GNOME and KDE theme sites till host Aqua inspired themes for their respective desktops.

Apple got in a tizzy by the fact that people were copying native icons and making them available free of charge for other platforms, and also including the use of trademarks such as the Apple logo and so forth - I see nothing wrong in what Apple did; its no different to, say, Adobe turning around suing people for copying fonts out of their Studio CS and making them available for download free of charge.

Oh, and back to the issue; they don't need to bundle the icons with the source distribution; it would simply be a matter of setting up some macros in the configure script so that when it detects MacOS X, it uses the icons that are native on the machine, thus not requiring any copying. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 04:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41442 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41442 Unfortunately the Win32 port is horribly maintained. There are serious bugs that cause major usability headaches that have been there for over two years and haven't been fixed.

As much as I would like to be able to use this toolkit on Windows, I simply can't take it seriously after having written a few Windows apps in it. It's simply too buggy. And major headache bugs go for a year or two with no attention. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 04:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41467 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41467 The toolkit doens't have anything to do with the dropshadows, that's done by the windowing system. If you look at the screenshots, the GTK windows do have dropshadows: http://people.imendio.com/mitch/screenshots/gimp-on-os-x.png

As for "more graphically sophisticated", I'm not sure what that means, but Cairo gives you features comparable to Quartz.

So isn't this a step BACKWARD for that platform?

You don't have to use it, but GTK opens the door to making more native-looking ports of Free Software. For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a lot of native Free Software. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 05:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zerblat) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41471 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41471 Yuck, it looks almost exactly like a Windows app. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 05:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (melgross) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41474 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41474 "You don't have to use it, but GTK opens the door to making more native-looking ports of Free Software."

wxWidgets does a far better job at that than GTK does. On Win32 GTK does not look native even with Wimp, and some controls do not exhibit native behavior either. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 05:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41481 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41481 I'll stick to writing Cocoa Apps on OS X.

I'd rather see a fork of Gimp with Cocoa interfaces and access to advanced features (CoreImaging, etc) to enhance and augment Gimp on OS X, and then see it sold for $50 and compete against Photoshop on OS X. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 06:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41495 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41495 In my experience wx apps look fairly broken in either environment.

Bear in mind that on linux the most widespread wxGTK libs are still tied to gtk1.x (no aliasing, no modern themes, no nothing), because wxGTK2 is still very buggy.

Besides, wx apps for the sake of "same code everywhere" do not use most of the things that make a gtk2 app good: no sizers (fixed size app, just like your average VB6 app), no native fileselector, dropdown and combos custom made and very strange, etc.

I use aMule (for example), but it is absolutely ugly.

Not to mention that writing an app in python+gtk is a lot easier. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 06:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41505 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41505 Oh, and back to the issue; they don't need to bundle the icons with the source distribution; it would simply be a matter of setting up some macros in the configure script so that when it detects MacOS X, it uses the icons that are native on the machine, thus not requiring any copying.

Even easier than that, instead of using GTK controls/widgets functions, use the native OS-X controls, with a thin GTK emulation layer on top of them. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41508 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41508 Microsoft products (Office 2003, WMP 10, etc) look far more out of place than GTK+.

Yeah, sure, dude. Wake me up when GTK+ apps use native Windows dialogs. When the buttons - even with the oh-so-great Wimp theme - are sized like normal Windows buttons. And, finally, when widgets GTK+ don't REDRAW THEMSELVES AT 1 Hz RATE. Seriously, I was able to reliably make a screenshot of a Gaim or Gimp window in the process of redraw. Just how much slower can it get? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41509 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41509 Or it will be as useless on OS X as on Windows. I'm sure most of GTK+ features can be implemented using native OS X and Windows controls and dialogs, so that GTK+ would in effect become some kind of binding to MFC (or whatever Windows uses now?) and Cocoa. That way it wouldn't look foreign and would redraw with the normal rate for native controls. So far, looking at Gimp screenshots in OS X, I can see that GTK+ does drawing itself, even if without X Window. That's not a proper way to do it. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41513 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41513 true; but then again, I think there are some widgets that aren't available on MacOS X because of HIG issues (a Mac/*NIX guru will be able to point them out).

I'm sure they'll find a solution, but I think the more important thing is getting GTK working, then worry about tweaking and beautifying it later on. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41520 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41520 "In my experience wx apps look fairly broken in either environment."

It sounds like most of your experience is with rather dated builds. I use both Debian unstable and suse, and haven't seen a gtk1 wx application in quite some time on either. I used to find the gtk2 build buggy, but again, that was ages ago. Though I suppose it's certainly possible that the bugs are there, but I'm not happening to use any of them. And Wx certainly does have sizers now. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Emerson) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41521 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41521 Besides that this indeed is a nice announcement the GNOME community has yet shown their other side of the face again. Hubert Figurine was working on a GTK+ to MacOSX port for quite some time and with the recent Immendio announcement (which made it sound like they are the first) the GNOME community has thrown the hammer again in the face of a prominent and till now contributing and very valuable member of the GNOME community.

Read more here:

http://www.figuiere.net/hub/blog/?2005/10/05/307-i-m-so-pissed-off Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41525 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41525 Bear in mind that on linux the most widespread wxGTK libs are still tied to gtk1.x (no aliasing, no modern themes, no nothing), because wxGTK2 is still very buggy.

wxGTK 2.6.x (2.6.0 released on April 21st, 2005) has a stable and enabled by default GTK2 support Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (GhePeU) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41528 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41528 >>would in effect become some kind of binding to MFC (or whatever Windows uses now?)

Windows (32bit) always has and still uses win32, MFC is an abstraction on win32 to make programming easier, same for winforms. Wimp draws to windows using win32, there will probably be something like Wimp for MacOSX in the near future.
I don't know why people still bitch about GTK+ apps on windows, with Wimp I find they are sufficiently native. If that's not sufficient for you, think about this, is it usual for all window apps to look the same? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41539 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41539 Example of a corporate Apple box :

- MacOSX and defaults apps ( Apple HIG )
- Lotus Note ( NOT Apple HIG compliant )
- MS Office ( NOT Apple HIG compliant )
- Photoshop ( NOT Apple HIG compliant)
- 2 Corporate Apps in Java ( NOT Apple HIG compliant ) Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41540 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41540 > Example of a corporate Apple box :
>
> - MacOSX and defaults apps ( Apple HIG )
> - Lotus Note ( NOT Apple HIG compliant )
> - MS Office ( NOT Apple HIG compliant )
> - Photoshop ( NOT Apple HIG compliant)
> - 2 Corporate Apps in Java ( NOT Apple HIG compliant )

What a great justification! This makes the entire Apple and GNOME HIG become useless and just a waste of time. The HIG was created to exactly avoid this kind of non-compliance. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41548 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41548 Why waste your time with gtk toolkit when you can develop your apps in c++ and qt framework ?
http://www.trolltech.com/download/qt/mac.html Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (pierino) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41550 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41550 Good Work ! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41554 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41554 I can't believe the ridiculous amount of hatred for a possible GTK port. You know what, It does not stop people programming in Cocoa, or Carbon, and believe it or not you don't have to use software written with it if you don't want to. This will bring a few quality apps to OSX from Linux that would never get ported from the platform otherwise. It gives developers another cross platform option which will help bring software to OSX. I imagine with a decent theme, a bit of care and consideration you and easily write GTK based software to Apples HIG

Talking about the HIG, when it's a choice between not having a program what I want to use that follows the HIG and not having the software I'll take the former every time.

Fainally, for those saying it looks just like windows, please consult your optician and look at

http://www.vargolsoft.net/2005/09/ooh-we-are-where-flies-are.html

to see what a default cocoa button actually looks like, I'll give you a preview, in is not lozenge shaped! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41555 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41555 will you port gimp to qt? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gullevek) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41557 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41557 Actually the Gnome HIG is very similar to Apple's.

What's the Gnome HIG got to do with cross-platform GTK applications? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41558 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41558 because you can develop your apps in c++ and gtkmm if you want c++, and don't have to learn yet another way of doing things as gtkmm is STL like. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41560 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41560 > - MacOSX and defaults apps ( Apple HIG )

Apart from the one's that are not, like Safari, iTunes, etc... Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41563 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41563 The problem there is that GTK offers features that either aren't available in Aqua, or else don't map directly to Aqua features. Any application that uses GTK extensively (especially one that features custom widgets) wouldn't work, and unfortunately that's the majority of the "killer" GTK apps out there. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BryanFeeney) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41567 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41567 Wake me up when GTK+ apps use native Windows dialogs

WAKE UP!

Inkscape uses native Windows dialogs and redraws fast enough on my 3.2 GHz Pentium 4 box at work. It's also prety fast using Linux on my old 700 MHz Celeron at home Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41576 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41576 >What's the Gnome HIG got to do with cross-platform GTK applications?

Rather much, most >>cross-platform Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41585 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41585 Maybe because someone doesn't want to shell out $3000 for a license if they want to write a commercial app. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41586 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41586 Show me the screenshot. I'm staring at inkscape on XP and it's using GTK+'s native file dialog. Redrawing is an issue as well, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

I tested GTK+ and wxWidgets to see what to use to program a little utility app I wrote. I ended up choosing wx because of the above issues, which was disappointing.

Here's to the continual improvement of cross platform GTK+! Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (urmensch) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41587 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41587 People seem to forget that the folks who maintain GTK+ are all GNOME hackers. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41599 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41599 These look out of place?

Completely! They're way too intuitive and user friendly. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41662 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41662 because you can develop your apps in c++ and gtkmm if you want c++, and don't have to learn yet another way of doing things as gtkmm is STL like.

Learning the Qt way takes about 10 minutes. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41787 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41787 "Besides, wx apps for the sake of "same code everywhere" do not use most of the things that make a gtk2 app good: no sizers (fixed size app, just like your average VB6 app), no native fileselector, dropdown and combos custom made and very strange, etc."

I'm not sure where you got that information from. wxWidgets has layout systems similar to Gtk (tables, boxes, etc.), and on Windows will use the native Windows file chooser. On Linux, it will use the Gtk one. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41789 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41789 "Why waste your time with gtk toolkit when you can develop your apps in c++ and qt framework ?"

A: It's ridiculously overpriced if you don't want to inherit the GPL virus.

B: I don't like the fact that qt adds propietary extensions to the C++ language which requires a special pre-processor. Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41823 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41823 I should have said they are. There is more than look in "Look & Feel". But talking of look, Inkscape uses many GNOME icons and GIMP uses GNOME's button order. Other than widgets, GIMP doesn't look like any other Win32 app. That said, it doesn't look like any other GTK or QT app...

If you stop your comparison at screenshots, then you can conclude they look similar. But use the applications for a while and it's clear that they don't feel at home under Win32. WIMP cannot help this. Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Wrawrat) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?41927 http://www.osnews.com/thread?41927 well, at least in the cross platform sense. developers should start separating the front and back end in their apps. That way they can make the backend very platform independent and portable and then make the frontend with the native toolkit for each platform.

Gtk and Qt works well in an x11-enviroment but much less so on other platforms suchs as win32 or macos. Even though an app built with these toolkits may be functional on, say macos x, it almost always feels clunky and like a foreign citizen in the host os.

This way, apps will conform to the HIG of the respective OS and generally will feel more enjoyable to work with. You might not get a consistent look across different OS:s but as long as the general layout and menus are the same, I don't think that matters.

I must add that Adobe has succeded pretty well with a cross platform look and feel, though. Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments