“I must admit that I had mixed feelings when I saw the new toolbar metaphor for OpenOffice.org 2.0. On the one hand, the 1.x system for seeing different toolbars was a bit complicated and weird. On the other hand, the huge list of toolbars under the “View” menu of the OpenOffice.org 2.0 (release candidate) seemed potentially overwhelming. I must admit, though, that I am a happy convert to the new system.” (Part 1|part 2)
I always wondered by they dont use the gnome OpenOffice Icons.http://jimmac.musichall.cz/openoffice-icons.php They look so much better then the Windows 95ish look that they use now.
~”A”
The OOo2 toolbars are – frankly – a direct rip off of office 2003, even down to the poorly emulated far-right drop down to switch buttons on/off in a slow way.
for crying out loud, come on. Is this innovation? No, it’s a lamemans copy of Office. I would have expected better from OOo but “catching up” seems all they want to do rather than overtake. At least Microsoft are totally rewriting the toolbar metaphor so we no longer have to deal with a toolbar menu with 100 available toolbars 😐
Isnt that what Microsoft did before taking over. Just thinking.
No, it’s a lamemans copy of Office. I would have expected better from OOo but “catching up” seems all they want to do rather than overtake.
On the desktop, it seems that’s all open source does with their apps – they always seem at least one or two steps behind. Look at Firefox (probably the best desktop app that OSS has ever created) – in most respects, still trying to play catch-up with Opera (tabbed browsing, mouse gestures, etc).
Firefox was the first browser to do tabs properly, they always were awkward on Opera, and still are to an extent.
Firefox’s innovations include the extension system; the Greasemonkey extension; the ability to open a folder of bookmarks, via one click, in several tabs; and an extraordinarily easy way of modifying toolbars.
On the desktop, there’s the idea of the virtual file-system, used in both KDE and Gnome; virtual desktops; and applets.
Also the OSS world has led the way in RSS publishing and reading tools.
There’s tons of inventive OSS stuff out there, people just don’t use OSS enough to leave the old habits in favour of the new.
Give a guy free food and all he does is bitch about how you forgot the salad fork when setting the table.
That’s not exacly fair. Whenever you have an MS article on sites such as ZDNet, you get at least half a dozen OpenOffice whores screaming that OOo is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it 0wNz MS Office, etc. So when people try it and blow it off as being the copycat app that it is, then the OSS zealots wonder why people bitch about free software. Well, if you had simply been honest and told us up front how good it really was (which, in all honest, is good enough … so long as you’re looking for free), most of us wouldn’t have bothered with it in the first place.
Firefox was the first browser to do tabs properly, they always were awkward on Opera, and still are to an extent.
Dunno … depends on how much you like MDI, I suppose. Besides, without extensions, the functionality is extremely limited.
Firefox’s innovations include the extension system
Which is horribly flawed. If you can install at least half a dozen of them (which you’ll need to even begin to match Opera’s functionality out of the box) and keep them from breaking from release-to-release, then you are most certainly a better man than I.
the Greasemonkey extension
It’s an extension (and a helluva insecure one at that) – not functionality built in
the ability to open a folder of bookmarks, via one click, in several tabs
I think IE shell browsers (eg MyIE2) have been doing this for longer
and an extraordinarily easy way of modifying toolbars
Shit, you gotta be kidding me. Right click/customize – Opera’s toolbars have got to be at least 10x more customizable than FF
On the desktop, there’s the idea of the virtual file-system, used in both KDE and Gnome; virtual desktops; and applets.
These are file systems and desktop enviroments, which I will admit open source does quite well. However, these are no more applications than Windows 3.1 was. Well, maybe ‘technically’, but you know what I mean.
modifying toolbars visually via drag/drop comes from OS X, not OSS IIRC.
not sure I would call any of the others innovation. nice, but innovation requires something to be unlike anything seen before. (lookup the dictionary definition)
take for example greasemonkey. javascript: bookmarks could edit pages, although greasemonkey makes it a whole lot nicer / easier.
I prefer the tabs in Opera. I use both browsers, I just prefer the way Opera works and find Firefox awkward. This is a case where choice is good. We each get to choose what works best for us.
I believe OOO is trying to look as close to MS Office in order to encourage people to switch. Once people are aware of alternatives then they can look for something better. It may be KOffice or abiword or something we haven’t seen yet. You need to be aware of another path before you can walk it.
The OOo2 toolbars are – frankly – a direct rip off of office 2003, even down to the poorly emulated far-right drop down to switch buttons on/off in a slow way.
for crying out loud, come on. Is this innovation? No, it’s a lamemans copy of Office. I would have expected better from OOo but “catching up” seems all they want to do rather than overtake. At least Microsoft are totally rewriting the toolbar metaphor so we no longer have to deal with a toolbar menu with 100 available toolbars 😐
Your point is? The OOo devs openly admit they are emulating the look and feel of MS Office to make a familiar environment for new converts.
Ah, the opera trolls come out… (FF can’t keep up with Opera, etc. etc.)
Why oh why they had to rip off “shaded” look :/
always wondered by they dont use the gnome OpenOffice Icons.http://jimmac.musichall.cz/openoffice-icons.php They look so much better then the Windows 95ish look that they use now.
The look depends upon (a) what is compiled into it (b) what desktop environment it is started from.
I compiled mine with both the kde and gnome options. If I start it from kde it takes on a kde look and feel (inlcuding the icons). Same for gnome.
Of course, if you start it from a terminal you can specify which look-and-feel you want.
The OOo2 toolbars are – frankly – a direct rip off of office 2003, even down to the poorly emulated far-right drop down to switch buttons on/off in a slow way.
for crying out loud, come on. Is this innovation? No, it’s a lamemans copy of Office. I would have expected better from OOo but “catching up” seems all they want to do rather than overtake. At least Microsoft are totally rewriting the toolbar metaphor so we no longer have to deal with a toolbar menu with 100 available toolbars 😐
Give a guy free food and all he does is bitch about how you forgot the salad fork when setting the table.
I actually agree with both sides in this argument… It is a free product and rapidly becoming a very good one, so we must be grateful.
The lack of innovation is annoying however. If they were going to clone an office suite, they could have copied a higher quality one like Lotus Smartsuite or Wordperfect Office, which were lightyears ahead of MS in many areas.
Usability must be the focus of the next release. OO.o had a chance to be ahead of MS Office on this front but now they will have to play catch-up to Office 12, unfortunately.
I have been hard at work in OO 2.0 recently and I don’t see the problem with toolbars or lack of innovation due to “cloning”. I am very impressed with the usability improvement over 1.1.X. The use of makes creating complex documents a snap and is very intuitive. I love it. And yes, I have a girlfriend too. Been married to her for five years now!
I agree that WordPerfect has similar power but at any price, OO is, to my way of thinking, a leader in many ways. I especially applaud the ODF default. If that ain’t innovation, what is? I think it looks better on Ubuntu, but man, I just have an affection for green lizards on the KDE.
…concerns Oo, not certain browsers little opera troll…
… is that the development team on this project doesn’t have as much resources at their disposal as other for profit application suites.
But OSS advocates say that the OSS development process produces better software by its very nature, regardless of other factors.
“But OSS advocates say that the OSS development process produces better software by its very nature, regardless of other factors.”
Keep in mind the difference between OSS and Free software advocates. OSS types claim open source is better because it always makes better code, their preference for OSS is based entirely on “pragmatism.”
For free software folks it’s all about the freedom. No unrealistic expectations about their software always being “better.” It’s all about being free.
This is why OSI is a joke, they are founded on an untruth: that open source is better technically just by being open source. Since that isn’t always true, they really have no reason to exist.
“the development team on this project doesn’t have as much resources at their disposal as other for profit application suites”
Incorrect. There are loads of Sun developers working on it (Sun basically does 75% of the work on OpenOffice.org), along with more paid employees from Novell, Red Hat, IBM and more. So that’s not much of an excuse. And as another poster pointed out, isn’t the power of Free Software supposed to HELP here?
Let’s be clear: the ‘lack of resources’ (ie 50+ Sun developers) still have to accept some responsibility for the leprotard mistakes in OpenOffice.org, such as the extremely slow startup time.
OOo is a great project, but there are problems that can and should be dealt with if it’s to really make an impact.
Perhaps the biggest issue people have with perceived innovation on OSS is the apps they choose to look at, e.g. Firefox which was designed to be standards compliant, not necessarily innovative, it is a good application I will agree (even if I prefer Konq) but to claim that OSS is not innovative on the desktop because firefox is not as innovative as Opera is not much of an argument. The same goes for OOo, which is not particularly innovative or clean, rather it works and is getting better and it manages to provide a Office look-alike suit which can provide a spring board away from Office for businesses and governments who are locked in. If you want innovative, perhaps KOffice, which is a lighter and cleaner solution although it is not as feature complete, would be a better place to look, or just use TeX and its frontends and realize that in this specific case yesterdays innovation manages to still lay a smackdown on the whole concept of an office suit. I personally use AmaroK as an example of an OSS desktop app that makes all proprietary competitors that I have ever seen pale in comparison.
Just My two cents,
Seth
Perhaps the biggest issue people have with perceived innovation on OSS is the apps they choose to look at, e.g. Firefox
The reason why I picked Firefox is, like I said … it’s the best OSS desktop app I’ve ever seen, so I think that as far as applications (not desktop enviroments) go, it is about as good as it gets for OSS apps on the desktop. Last time I tried Konquerer, it was dreadfully slow and clunky. Of course, that was a little over a year ago, and I know that’s ages in the OSS world
Fair enough, each to his own, isn’t choice a great thing
Seth
So, we have opera trolls, konq users etc saying Firefox didnt innovate. is that the reason Opera’s new version and konqueror and IE7 is looking just like Firefox?
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
For open office, give them a break.. They have come a very long vay, they cleaned up too much mess.
Great product guys. We are getting closer to the time when it would be possible to run any corporation without ever needing to pay huge fees for office software.
The next major innovation that I am looking forwar to seeing in 0penOffice is a web-based frontend. Install once on a web server and use from anywhere in the world with just a web browser. This is one innovation that keeps Bill Gates awake at night and that is why they are so scared of Google.
What you have to realize is that Openoffice has to do a simular layout to MSOffice, since most people know MSoffice. Just look at other office/Word application, the layout is very simular to each other.
You see this is the same as Linux window managers, people want a simular experience to XP (start menu) and call them harder to use or not innvotive. To me there is double standards when people talk about what they want.
I like OO 2.0 since the menus are more organized now and it appears to open/save Word files well. I have been using OO at my home office to open word doc’s with tables in them and it has been going well. It is great to have a nice word processor on linux that is quickly becoming very popular. Could it use some improvement here and there? Of course. The Base product is one of those areas but I don’t use it very much so I can wait. I love the fact that all of this is open source and I can download upgraded from Fedora yum repos. easily. The Java problem doesn’t bother me since I am using GNU Java runtime instead of Sun’s and it works well too. I couldn’t ask for too much more right now.
Looking back on it now I amazed how easy it has become to use a linux box to desktop work now. I use Gedit to edit text files, Firefox to preview HTML, Gimp 2 to edit photos, the HP drivers for my color printer work perfectly with CUPS. Thunderbird Mail is working fine at filtering spam and fetching my mail. Jpilot is managing my Palm Pilot. And finally RealPlayer (Helix) is streaming internet music. This is definately a great time for Linux and open source.