A controversy surrounding Lycoris (which got acquired by Mandriva) is brewing. Apparently, Rus Bayne, ex-vice president of sales at Lycoris, is trying to start up a new distribution— but allegedly “ripping off” Lycoris along the way. Read the thread on Lycoris’ community site and judge for yourself.
Mandriva purchased Lycoris, so how long will Lycoris still be around ?
probably won’t be much of a threat to Mandriva/Lycoris, although he does have a point when he asks for the source code.
Paul G
Don’t load here.
http://www.lycoris.org/viewtopic.php?topic=13020&forum=24
Could someone mirror it ?
It seems to me that this is nothing more than the GPL in action. Of course, I’m not a follower of Lycoris or any of the young distributions, but shouldn’t Rus be allowed to fork the Lycoris project if he pleases? So what if Rus was an asshole in the process? It seems that the only complaint that may warrant any controversy is the fact that http://www.cannonbay.org is a rip-off of lycoris.org. In this situation, Rus could go out on a limb and claim that all artwork created by GPL’d software falls under the GPL (it’s been used before on documents created with GPL’d fonts). To me, it seems to be a group of users bickering about a bunch of nothing, trying to point fingers when they have done little to contribute to the codebase of Lycoris in the first place.
“In this situation, Rus could go out on a limb and claim that all artwork created by GPL’d software falls under the GPL”
All of the inforamtion given on the site is that it is already copyrighted unders Lycoris’ name. If he’d had an issue it should have been taken care of then. It’s interesting to me that a guy who is so Pro-GPL, so easily rips off known copyrighted material. Not only that, but he continued to lie about it. If he is in the right, why does he continue to lie?
CherryOS was mentioned before, has anybody checked to see if those same people are involved in this or not?
I think their complain is not if he starts another distro. The problem is that he is saying he just wants the code to be made available in a proper way. But he is not showing his other intentions. Plus, they are complaining for his website, which if you look at the source the same as the Lycoris website.
Well, GPL’ed fonts dos not make the document GPL’ed too, unless the fonts themselfs are embedded within the document, like in a PDF-file (if the fonts are embedded, they don’t have to be in a PDF).
A HTML-file is not GPL’ed even if it uses GPL’ed fonts (since it is only linking to fonts), just like a document isn’t GPL’ed just because it was created with a GPL’ed application.
People may claim that graphics with text made out of GPL’ed fonts is GPL’ed but this is not true for bitmap images, since the binary result does not contain any font information. It may be different for vector images if the used format actually stores the font itself within the image. If not, the image isn’t GPL’ed.
EOF!
Why on earth are there fonts released under the GPL? This makes absolutely no sense to me. What fonts are GPL’d so that I know to avoid them? Are any firefox fonts GPL’d?
This is a perfect example of using the GPL in the *wrong* situation.
Rus could go out on a limb and claim that all artwork created by GPL’d software falls under the GPL
Sure, he could try that claim. However, it would be ignoring the real issue surrounding creative works of art: copyright.
Just like GPL code is copyrighted by the creator (or whomever the code writer chooses to assign copyright to), an original graphic image is coprighted. It cannot be be freely copied without the creator’s permission. For example, Larry Ewing has very liberally released his Tux image, as found here: http://www.isc.tamu.edu/~lewing/linux/ And, Red Hat (as a business) is the opposite, and requires stripping of copyrighted and trademarked images and terms from people copying their product (CentOS, WhiteBox and others).
Actually I disagree on you calling Rus an asshole, he was obviously angry, but he made his case and gave his reason for doing what he did. In my opinion he went through due process before taking any major action.
I’ve followed Lycoris closely for a few years, but that was before it was acquired by Mandriva, it used to be a nice looking distribution and most importantly it had a very clean feel as far as the default software selection. Rus was in IRC a few timse and never seemed to me like an unreasonable person, I’m willing to consider what he has to say when I have more time to read thought it all.
Personally in that IRC chat log I don’t think they took him very seriously at all, they spent more time making jokes and aggravating him than seriously considering what he was saying.
As for the similarity between the sites, I’m no lawyer.
Ha ha, after reading the thread and some other stuff on that site I have determined two things.
1. Rus Bayne doesn’t appear to be able to tell the truth if he has to.
2. He’s having a real hard time keeping track of his own lies.
This really brings to mind the whole CherryOS thing.
It’s no wonder that Lycoris tanked with a guy like this leading up the sales team. Another thing that I noticed is that he has been asked several questions several times, point blank, and never directly answers the question.
The code thing I see, but even that seems to be directed by another person, who seems very reasonable about it. The Rus guy continues to say that he has no interest in the code, yet he continues to hammer on the subject. Then toward the end he says something that is very telling.
“regardless of whether I use the code in question or not. (And I currently am not using the code being called for proper release, either.)”
Notice the “currently”, he’s a pro at this kind of stuff it would appear. He denies and denies, and then slides in something that leaves him room. There are plenty of examples like this in that thread and others.
Who cares if he uses the code and starts another distribution, my question is, why does he feel the need to lie about it? I don’t get it. It’s obvious what he is planning to do, why hide it? And that is why I really have to question this persons motives.
It seems to me that if it were on the up and up he wouldn’t need to lie about it, and try this whole round-about in order to get the code.
Thanks, but if he’s the man running this Cannonbay thing, the only reason I’ll keep an eye on it is to make sure I’m staying as far away from it as possible.
You’re right, it does smack quite a bit of CherryOS. There are some differences of course, but this guy’s actions and how he answers questions are almost exactly the same way the CherryOS devs were handling the questions, and we all know what happened there.
Somebody should make a list of people like this so that everybody knows to keep clear of them.
I’m certainly no GPL fanatic, but I do believe that if someone chooses to use code that is licensed under the GPL that they should do so with the intent of releasing the source as soon as binaries are distributed.
Despite Rus’s deceits, possible motivations, and attitude, he does have a valid point regarding the release of the source code.
It’s easy to criticize someone you don’t know when you catch them at a bad time, people don’t think straight when they’re angry. I’m sure I’ll get moderated down like I did with many of the Apple DRM articles for stating an unpopular truth, but I’ve spoken to Rus on IRC before and he’s didn’t seem at all like you protray him. Spare your judgement until the guy has had some time to think things through.
Looking at both web pages, they are really the same. The guy just changed the links, but all the code in both pages is the same. Do not know the implications of this.
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/bugs-bug-genie.log
Holy crap, this guy is a major scumbag! I wouldn’t even believe all of this if there wasn’t such a history already. I had tried Lycoris about a year or two ago and saw that this Rus guy was running, or said he was at least, the company. It was his heavy handed tactics in the Greenhouse community that drove me away. He’s got a long history of being a jerk, but this is beyond anything I would have ever thought.
Holy crap, this guy is a major scumbag!
What exactly makes you say that? If the log is genuine, it says a lot in his defense.
LOL, I did read through this, pretty interesting. It says a lot to the character of the man in question. The one guy says some pretty damn funny stuff though, and makes some very good points IMHO.
The first IT job I ever had was working for a small ISP and reseller. All of the founders of the company were part of the staff, and when people start to lose their way, they really, really lose it.
One more reason to become “The man”..
Rus IMHO is the main reason Lycoris went down hill in the first place! It was Rus the enforcer that keeped chasing old and new users away with his antics of locking threats and not allowing any other Distro talk or pointing out negative things about Lycoris! I would never ever try any Distro that Rus helps produce or manage and would advice all otheres to stear clear of him!
Amen, brother. Rus killed Lycoris, and Joe let him do it.
There was once a very bright future….but Joe brought the wrong people in to help him MANAGE the busiMess.
I have read a fair bit of the forum stuff and it’s unclear whether the source for Lycoris has been released yet.
Anyone know if it has or not?
If not, why wasn’t it released when the binaries were released?
No, the source has not been released yet and according to Joseph Cheek, he has to move to Paris and then get his stuff about 3 months later, and then release the source, so the source probably won’t be released for about 6 months is my guess.
Well, at least it’s being taken care of. I’m sure everyone can understand that moving across continents will take up a lot of your time, and that the guy has to settle down before he can do much about it.
“Well, at least it’s being taken care of. I’m sure everyone can understand that moving across continents will take up a lot of your time, and that the guy has to settle down before he can do much about it.”
It can’t take THAT long. The source generated the binaries, so it is available… It shouldn’t be that hard to make it available.
And why does it have to be this one guy who releases the source. Anyone at Mandriva should be able to do this.
We (Mandriva) don’t have the Lycoris source. We’ve never built Lycoris here at Mandriva, we just sold some boxes of it through the store that I guess someone at Lycoris still had. As far as I know, Joe is the only one with all the source (and, as the dude above commented, he’s already packed it away in advance of his move to Paris).
Rus CC’ed me on some of his rather…demanding…emails to MDV staff about this issue. As far as I can make out the basic issue is that Lycoris was never 100% GPL (Linux distros don’t have to be, just look at Linspire, SUSE up till recently, etc etc). Rus thinks some bits of the distro which weren’t put under GPL have to be put under GPL – I don’t know if he’s right or wrong about that, I never used it or looked at the code – and is pushing for the entire thing to be GPLed in order to ‘simplify’ matters. As far as I know the status is that MDV management / legal team / whoever is looking at the request, and we’re all going to have to wait on Joe to get the source out of storage in any case.
Whatever kind of guy Rus is, thats irrelevant here. If the sources were not released, then they need to be. It does look like he is playing games here but atleast 1 thing he says is true, GPL violations have occurred.
If Rus is an ahole then cannonbay will fail. If we allow GPL violations to occur, we all fail.
Release the code.
Joseph has said he will release the sources when he his stuff arrives in Paris.
Agreed, the whole 6 month thing is somebody’s WAG, and probably trying to still the pot and divert attention off of Rus and on to somebody else, and he keeps trying to do.
People say that Rus isn’t the point here, but he is exactly the point
“A controversy surrounding Lycoris (which got acquired by Mandriva) is brewing. Apparently, Rus Bayne, ex-vice president of sales at Lycoris, is trying to start up a new distribution– but allegedly “ripping off” Lycoris along the way. Read the thread on Lycoris’ community site and judge for yourself.”
It doesn’t say anything about GLP infringement there does it. It says that’s Rus is ripping off Lycoris. So for you who are so concerned about the GPL, and you should be, where is your concern for copyright? The man is blatantly ripping off the Lycoris website, including copyrighted material. How about you start screaming out about that.
Joe and Mandriva have made it very clear that the code in question will be released, end of that story. Now how about Rus who is blatantly ripping off a copyrighted website and calling it his own.
Who does he rip off next? Your website, mine? What will he do with the released code? Will he reface it, get rid of all licenses and call it his own?
This guy is out of control and is the scourge or everything considered open about OpenSource.
The source *is* being released! That’s not the controversy anymore. The code is going to be released, not as soon as people would like, but there is nothing in the GPL that mentions a time limit to having to release it. Get over it people, it is going to be released as Joseph announced as well as the non-GPL tools to build some of it.
What is more suspicios is that the cannonbay.org site seems to be a direct copy off lycoris.org, right down to the tabs and the pictures. I mean, every little details shows that it’s a direct copy. How did he get ahold of that?
If the guy is not connected to Lycoris anymore – as he claims he is – then how did he get ahold of it?
wget -r -m lycoris.com perhaps?
He still has access to the lycoris.org srever so he was able to go directly on the server and pull the theme off. But yes, ever single detail was copied and it was an exact copy, but some graphics were finally changed after it was brought to his attention and convincing him that they are copyrighted and he can’t use them.
Using your username and password for a company that you are no longer a part of, to get a copy of something you’re not entitled to, just so you can benefit from it sounds a lot like stealing to me. And then he rambles on about this Joseph guys’ motives? I wouldn’t trust this guy.
If you read into what is being said, Rus is in the right about the GPL issue with Lycoris. Rus has asked for it, and Lycoris seem to be stalling.
What are the odds that there is a “hard disk failure” at some point and it never gets released….
Forget about the web site stuff – yes, that needs addressing, but the fact is Lycoris is holding up on the release of GPL’d code.
Did you not see that it is going to be released? Joseph just moved internationally and is probably going to be moving to a whole other continent and country again. I have full faith in Mandriva and Joseph that this will be released properly
Mandrake Linux was a rip-off of Red Hat in the first place. Mandriva has no right to complain.
“Did you not see that it is going to be released? Joseph just moved internationally and is probably going to be moving to a whole other continent and country again. I have full faith in Mandriva and Joseph that this will be released properly”
Yes – and I am willing to bet money on it that it never does.
Moving internationally is just a stall. Are you saying that out of a company, such as Lycoris, there was only one person who is capable of releasing the source?
If they had any intention of releasing the source they would do. While they are not legally bound to help users, they are morally bound. They have made profit off of other users work. I won’t allow any of my GPL’d code to be used by Mandriva until this issue is resolved, and I won’t buy Mandriva software again.
Also, you can’t tell me that a company that works with GPL’d code has never thought up a quick and easy procedure for releasing GPL’d code?
Rus’ concerns has been addressed for quite some time now. Joseph and Mandriva have confirmed that they will release the sourcecode as soon as it arrives in the EU.
Maybe it’s okay for you to spend several hundred dollars flying back to the States, picking up the source and then returning the Paris, but frankly, that’s way more than what is required. Joseph/Lycoris/Mandriva’s obligations are to make the source code available, which they’ve said they will do. What are the odds that the plane carrying the source code crashes? You can’t calculate everything. Sometimes you just gotta to what’s easiest for all parties.
“Moving internationally is just a stall. Are you saying that out of a company, such as Lycoris, there was only one person who is capable of releasing the source? ”
Actually, that’s true. Joseph was the only employee left in the company at the merger. Get your facts straight.
“Are you saying that out of a company, such as Lycoris, there was only one person who is capable of releasing the source? ”
Yes. That is exactly what is the case. Unless Mandriva already has the code, in which case they would probably not say that they have to wait for it to arrive. Joseph *was* Lycoris, there was noone else in charge of the actual codebase.
Someone seems to think that Lycoris was some kind of “big company”. Lycoris was a one man show. There was no “easy procedure for releasing GPL’d code”. Unless Joseph did it by himself, it wasn’t done.
Why not post under your real name Rus?
I do. You must have me confused with some other IP address.
Rus
I am amused by the posts above….
One person breaking away from one company and starting another…..in the process he had to do some arm twisting, some code stealing, some monopolized things……..
but that’s what champions of OSS are legally allowed to do, right?
Keep it up Rus, one day you will be billionaire like Bill Gates….
I don’t know what this Rus guy is talking about. I always though there were some parts of Lycoris that definitely came under different licenses, and some parts that were even proprietary. I don’t know where this ‘violating the GPL’ thing comes from, and then he continually tries to ram it home.
I’m not bad at reading between the lines on things like this – and it doesn’t take much reading. What it looks like is that Rus is trying to force Joseph, and/or Mandriva, to release the source on things like Desktop/LX, some of which may not even be GPL’d, just so he can start his own thing. I can well believe he was in the position of Vice President of Sales – clueles and useless twonks like him usually are. What would someone like him do with a bunch of source code? He even goes so far as to say:
“My plans get affected zero by the release of Desktop/LX code. Any code I’m working with is further advanced than the old Desktop/LX code.
The GPL is the GPL, and no one should let anyone violate it in major knowing ways.”
Yer, whatever Rus. You don’t need the source code at all to get whatever the woefully amateurish crap you’ve got off the ground ;-). I mean, for goodness sake, look at that Cannonball site….. It’s not just the look and feel but even the data in it that’s seems to be ripped off.
If I were Mandriva, Joseph or anyone involved with Lycoris like Zegenie I would just refuse to respond to him at all until his very big head exploded. There’s nothing for any of those people to answer for here.
Hi, I started the initial contact regarding GPL concerns with Lycoris and its former products.
I initially contacted Joe by himself, but after that being largely a none event (Yes, he asked for my address, but did not address the concerns), I contacted people at MDV. Even after further silence from MDV and Joe still dodging the issue, I contacted the FSF to confirm my stance and belief. Once they did, I forwarded that to MDV and as such, MDV finally commented that they will make good on the issue.
Thanks MDV!
I do not support Rus’ in his current plight against Lycoris and obvious discontent for Joe.
I had hoped that once news that MDV were working on the issue, that people would relax and wait. However, it seems not.
Michael.
I’m quite relaxed.
If I relax even more I’M GOING TO POOP IN MY PANTS!!!!
I’m quite relaxed.
-zegenie
… of two things.
1) OSS is inherently superior to proprietary software as a matter of general principle.
2) A truly Open Source distro such as Debian or one of the other non-commercially based releases are the only sensible way to go.
How many other software companies, large and small, have gone belly up over the years and left their customer base high and dry? This is just more of the same.
Why is it that most of the people posting, on either side of the argument, write like 5 year olds? It seems maybe 2 people are posting, just using different sames for the same old tired flamewar. As for the GPL, yes they need to release the source to GPL components, and will be reported to the FSF.
Distros come and go all the time. Just take a look at the distrowatch.com list of discontinued distributions. Many discontinued distros are forks off of distributions that are still active and thriving.
I guess it’s time to get rid of my Redmond Linux CDs (and my Deep Linux stuff too.)
Pretty funny, but quite typical. Joseph Cheek of Lycoris really made a “name” for himself by being unprofessional, picking fights with users and vendors, lashing out in public forums, etc. Maybe a brilliant guy (I don’t know him), but seemingly the kind of guy who doesn’t have the temperament to be an effective CEO of a Cracker Jack box, but with too much ego to know it. Learning now that Lycoris has code that needs to be released according to the terms of the GPL but that they’ve been bickering about this internally since February – again, typical.
With that kind of leadership at the top, it’s no surprise that the Lycoris employee ranks and user forum community turn out to be a hornet’s nest of flames and intrigue. Poor Rus, whoever the hell he is, does appear to be starting his own distro (good luck with that one, Rus – that always works out). And he appears to be completely in the right about Lycoris’ GPL obligations. But then he goes and mucks up his case by ripping off half the Lycoris.org icons for his own site (looks like he just did a simple copy of his work files, not bothering to check first what came with the software package and what was customized by his employer). And he jumps right at the bait offered up by this flamefest of a community. Comical!
Look, I don’t care if you’re buying an operating system or a stick of gum – it’s best to steer clear of businesses that are run and operated by clowns. People who don’t understand the basics of what is appropriate in business are very unlikely to get the difficult stuff right, like five-nines uptime or keeping the gum unadulterated with rat feces. Lycoris was always an also-ran in a field of also-rans and never-weres, but it was goofball nonsense like this – from top to bottom – that ensured its final fate: a consulting contract for the CEO and the sale of a few assets to another distro (the company was not acquired, no matter how many times OSNews prints that falsehood), rather than a wholesale buyout or continued life as a business. Mandriva was very smart to pick and choose what part of this cow to eat; may the rest be ground into hamburger for the forum trolls. Rest in pieces, Lycoris.
I think we all need more information before pointing the finger at either, so far this thread has looked like nothing more than defamation of character on whoever the punching bag was for each original post.
I’ve been on IRC lots of times in the Lycoris channel and I remember Joseph Cheek being there from time to time, he was very civil and never appeared rude to me. I’m also almost certain that Rus was there a few times and he was much the same. I never really heard about what things were like within Lycoris as a company, but I never suspected a year and a half ago that this kind of thing would happen.
Right now I’m not sure what to make of things, this seems more like a dispute between Rus and other former Lycoris employees, but what I do know is that a lot of people on this site are being very quick to pass judgement based on what limited information they’ve read so far, and perhaps a personal experience in IRC once upon a time. Very little new information is really comming up, and quite frankly no one is comming out of this looking good right now.
What we really need is for each side to clearly explain their stance with some background information and, most importantly, proof.
I remember Lycoris as the first Linux distro that I could actually install, the first one that “just worked”. It’s the distro that got me and a lot of other people into Linux during the last “Linux on the desktop” boom in 2003. (OT: I expect another in 2006…Linux seems to take a major leap forward every three years, and sink underground for in the years between.)
After learning about the GPL, I quickly grew frustrated with Lycoris. It was not easy to get at their source code, they made it harder and harder to use their distro for free, and they copyrighted every icon and color scheme in sight. (In the end, that’s all Lycoris was, KDE 2.2 with some prettier icons and lots of html masks in front of Konqueror windows.) They even added on a very un-GPL license restriction to their distro that said Lycoris was free to install and distribute, but only for home (non-commercial) use. Where in the GPL does it say they could do this? And their whole defense of it was “proprietary artwork!” Lame. So I can throw an a copyrighted icon into Debian and completely ignore the GPL based on that? And they were never, EVER forthcoming with their source code.
Therefore I’m not at all surprised Joe Cheek & co. aren’t releasing their source code still to this day. The company always had a hostile attitude toward the GPL and a VERY hostile and condescending attitude toward anyone using Lycoris for free. I and many others also grew frustrated with the the reluctance of the Lycoris devs to include the most recent software in their distro. They were stuck on KDE 2 long, long, LONG after everyone else had moved to KDE 3. I moved to Mandrake later in 2003 and it was like jumping ahead a couple years in one night. Everyone else I know left Lycoris for more bleeding edge tech also. Lycoris was like training wheels for desktop linux in 2003.
During the last couple years, and 2005 in particular, I’ve lost my fascination with Linux almost completely and replaced Linux in my life with OS X. I’ve moved away from an “I want to endlessly tweak my KDE desktop and Linux kernel” attitude toward a “I want to just get things done and leave the eye candy and system maintenance to the OS”.
I’m expecting big things from the Linux-on-the-desktop folks next year though. There’s so much cool stuff in the works that won’t make it into the major distros until next year that it’s really exciting to think of its implications. Demonstrations I’ve seen make it look like the eye candy might actually surpass OS X, while there has been a tremendous and valiant effort on the part of the new kids on the Linux block to simplify the desktop environment and focus on cleanliness and ease of use.
(Quote)Therefore I’m not at all surprised Joe Cheek & co. aren’t releasing their source code still to this day.(Quote)
This could stem from him being a Microsoft Employee before he started with Linux!
That’s a bit premature don’t you think.
Just because he worked for Microsoft doesn’t mean he shares Microsoft’s tendency to enter moral and legal grey areas.
Try, “which was acquired.”
Looks like someone pulled the plug on the site before Joe’s suggested date of Nov. 1 or, server meltdown from all the bitching.
Maybe something was posted that they didn’t want to be public…?
Actually, if you read everything, my guess is there would be a lot not wished to be made public, by more the one person.
Sometimes honesty is brutally painfull.
Yes, the site now redirects you to mandriva.. I would say they wanted to silence the issue. Where else can we go to find out about the results of the controversy?
I suppose you can try following this at the CannonBay site, but who knows if anything will continue there.
I used to be a Lycoris user and tester of their beta releases way back but Rus’ constant ramblings turned the forums into chaos and I got sick of it and left. That’s when I learned to install and use Slackware and eventually Xandros and the beauty of apt-get in debian distros.
I feel sure that Joseph Cheek and the Mandriva folks decided to yank the site to save face. It isn’t just down because it now redirects to the Mandriva site.
That takes some setting up, so its clearly intentional IMHO.
Cheek seems to have been caught and once that IRC log was published people started to see that maybe there was a lot of garbage going on. With that IRC log out, the attitudes changed a lot.
Thanks to Cheek and Mandriva for shutting down the site so they can try not to deal with the problems. Now they’ll try to let this issue fade and be forgotten.
If you were part of the Lycoris Community you would see what I mean! Hopefully Mandriva will keep him on a short leash and exploit his true talents…creating a nice looking OS! Just don’t let him run the show without the necessary fire extinguishers near bye!
After they released Update 4 (1.4) in September 2004, there were lots of unhappy people. I was one of them. A lot of us pre-ordered months in advance and some of us had trouble getting our stuff. Some of us finally got our orders filled in November & December.
There were a lot of posts from pissed off customers on the forum. Cheek finally stepped in and made things right. I did have to send him proof that my card was charged and I sent him the email I got from the store when I pre-ordered. According to Cheek, ‘somebody’ lost a bunch of the pre-order records. That ‘somebody’ could only have been Rus since all orders went to him. From the talk on the forum by the regulars, all orders went to Rus, and the email adress for questions ([email protected]) went to him too.
I finally got my copy after Thanksgiving – more two months late.
Wouldn’t suprise me if Joseph Cheek fired Rus over a big mistake like that. As I remember he was gone right after that.
Now I wouldn’t buy an apple from that jerk if I was starving. And I’m not interested in any new business he plans to start with Linux.
People like Rus Bayne are business mistakes waiting to happen. He should be banned from working in Linux.
Forever.