The first in a new series of development builds of GNOME has been released. You can compile GNOME 2.13.1 by using these jhbuild modulesets. Planned features can be found here.
The first in a new series of development builds of GNOME has been released. You can compile GNOME 2.13.1 by using these jhbuild modulesets. Planned features can be found here.
1) rm -rf jhbuild garnome
2) get konstruct
3) run construct
4) alias gnome=startkde
5) run your newly great GNOME desktop and yes GNOME works
Gnome has always got my love and the love of the people who knows what a DE is and what it should be. Kudos to the developers for always making every release a great improvement and not only some bugfixes and a GUI redesign. We all know the disadvantages of gnome that so much trolls keep posting here but, we don’t care because the good things of Gnome outweighs the bad things that are being fixed very fast.
> Kudos to the developers for always making every release
> a great improvement and not only some bugfixes and a
> GUI redesign.
I can not confirm this. With every release I see more suckage, more stuff not working correctly and even more features and options removed. Huge instability and slow progress in making even basic things work. Why does GNOME need a GUI redesign with each release ? That’s what the HIG was meant for. If the developers would simply follow that guide then there wouldn’t be a need to redesign the stuff all the time. But then, maybe it’s the GUI redesign that keeps them busy with GNOME rather than fixing the basic things to make the desktop useful and operational.
What GUI redesigns? Do you use Gnome? I realize you’re probably trolling, but really, that’s just silly. They have been tweaking the Nautilus GUI for a while because of user feedback. I don’t know of any other significant GUI changes. A new theme, maybe?
> Do you use Gnome?
Using, contributing, sending in patches and seeing how developers make it worse and worse with each release. There are usually two sides of the coin. Btw. I am running CVS and know the entire development process from early 1.2 days till the sad mess we have today.
Well, if you use CVS, how can you think that everything will work perfectly?
> Well, if you use CVS, how can you think that everything
> will work perfectly?
Those screenshots show Fedora Core 4 and Debian. And not my CVS System, while I don’t have that issue, I do have that issues shown on the FC4 screenshot when printing out exactly one page.
Kudos to the developers…
Goodness me. Using a word beginning with a K, and a capital one at that, in the comments on this article is just asking for trouble!
Obviously some people can’t take a joke…..
Yes, it was actually a good joke. But people at OSNews have no sense of humour.
“Obviously some people can’t take a joke…..”
No, they are just getting tired of the constant trolling from the KDE community.
I don’t know why the KDE folks can’t just stay quite and enjoy their DE, I guess they are just insecure at the the rate at which Gnome is improving and how it has, in my opinion, overtaken KDE as the superior desktop enviroement.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Gnome has always got my love and the love of the people who knows what a DE is and what it should be. Kudos to the developers for always making every release a great improvement and not only some bugfixes and a GUI redesign. We all know the disadvantages of gnome that so much trolls keep posting here but, we don’t care because the good things of Gnome outweighs the bad things that are being fixed very fast.
Gnome maybe a decent DE but it’s apps suck big time.
In particular Nautilus is still as useless as ever.
After trying the latest Ubuntu (which btw is pretty amazing piece of work) I was disappointed that I still couldn’t have a “delete” button on Nautilus toold bar.
Or some other buttons like “New folder” which I’d find very usefull and which would increase my productivity when managing my files.
That’s why I find Nautilus and most other apps that come with Gnome quite useless and anti-productive.
If I have to reach for the keyboard and hit delete key or right click and hunt for the delete item on the pop-up menu (which is not there by default btw) then I don’t call that a usable and productive human interface design.
There is a point when too much functionality may be overwhelming but Gnome has gone too way too far in feature cutting. So far in fact that it’s become counterproductive.
Taking Nautilus for example, I can’t think of a single file manager (other than Mac’s Finder) that has less functionality than Nautilus and that includes Windows Explorer which lets you add buttons to the toolbar.
I’m far more productive with a tiny Gtk1 file manager called Emelfm (or it’s newer version Emelfm2) than with Nautilus.
And getting asked for a network password three times when browsing my Samba network is just plain wrong.
Why was that not fixed long time ago?
It’s simply sad to see what’s happening to Gnome.
Do you know what a right click is?
To delete, you can simply drag files to the trash can on the panel.
Or on the desktop if you have it there.
Or on the desktop if you have it there.
No, neither works for me and most people because I don’t like the stupid trash can on my desktop and if I make the panel small it’s hard and slow to drag and drop files to it.
Plus I don’t use trash can ever, I delete files for good.
Therefore it would be much easier to have a delete button on the toolbar in Nautilus so I just select the files and hit the button to delete them.
Gee, it’s such a basic feature even Windows Explorer has it if you disable simple folder view.
But no such option in Nautilus.
I guess Gnome considers EVERYBODY too stupid and unqualified to delete their own files!
And this is why I have no respect and will never use Gnome (until they fix it).
Plus Gnome is such a hypocritical DE.
On one hand they cut basic but important features and on the other they make Evolution, which is an overkill for a basic email app, a dependency.
And yeah! Gnome has REGISTRY, like Windows, yeah REGISTRY. And don’t tell me it’s not registry because it is. If it gets corrupted you can kill you Gnome configuration bye bye. Gnome doesn’t start any more.
What a joke of a DE.
It happened to me and I was pissed!
Oh look it is angry. See how it jumps up and down. I will take it home with me, it is in dire need for food.
Plus I don’t use trash can ever, I delete files for good.
Therefore it would be much easier to have a delete button on the toolbar in Nautilus so I just select the files and hit the button to delete them.
If you delete files in Nautilus they still end up in the trash can
You can’t have deleted many files with Nautilus if you hadn’t realized that yet
So your whole rant is nothing but that… a rant…
Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:
Stability;
Features;
Speed;
Performance;
Useability;
Number of known bugs per l. o. c.
Speed in addressing known bugs;
Look and feel.
Yes, any such review would be necessarily subjective in most of these areas but at least from a neutral standpoint (preferably a panel, so that a few different views would be incorporated) we would start to gain a clearer picture, instead of this muddying of the waters. Honest critiques of both systems, including genuine strengths and weaknesses, would help focus developers.
“Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:
Stability;
Features;
Speed;
Performance;
Useability;
Number of known bugs per l. o. c.
Speed in addressing known bugs;
Look and feel. ”
the big players already have, and thats why they’re ausing GNOME and avoiding KDE.
“Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:”
Yes, but I dont want to see an evaluation. I dont CARE.
I want people to shut up about how much better KDE is in Gnome threads and vice versa.
Obvioiusly both are good environments and if either one works for someone that’s just awesome but for the love of God, shut the hell up about how much the other suck. We dont care. Noone does.
Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:
The bickering will exist until the end of time, and when you cut through the crap and BS it’s actually indicative of Linux’s greatest strength: choice.
KDE and Gnome have design philosophies that are almost at extremes. KDE is all about integration and functionality whereas Gnome is about simplicity and purpose. They’re both focused on user experience but with different interpretations. And users of course, being what they are, have very different interpretations of their own about what they want in a DE.
The Gnome zealots will forever consider KDE bloated because of things like Konqueror’s uber-functionality or the less-than-intuitive but fairly granular control panel. The KDE zealots will forever consider Gnome simplistic, lacking control, having to work with multiple applications to get things done etc. For the rest of us, the non-zealots, it comes down to what works best for you and not giving a crap about what other people think.
The politicos will crow about KDE’s dual-licensing, claiming that nobody will want to pay for a development license to write closed software. The other side will retort that the big players would view development licenses a small price in the big picture for a more advanced development framework, and then drop in a comment questioning how the big players feel about LGPL permitting reverse-egineering of their work etc. etc. That all gets extremely tiring. Once again, the non-zealots will make a smart decision about what works best for what they need to accomplish.
Then there’s the crap about stability, crashes, etc. Gnome sucks ’cause it’s unstable on my system! Konqueror crashes on me so KDE sucks! These are akin to the comments people make along the lines of this distro sucks/is crap/bites/will never succeed because I couldn’t make it work on my hardware, so there. Ignore these posts. If the problems were widespread beyond someone’s ignorance or inability to install software on their particular setup, you’d be hearing more about it from reputable sources.
And finally, of course, there’s all the crap about eye candy and Windows look and colors and this sucks and that is crap. At the end of the day, both DE’s are highly customizable and you can frankly make one wind up looking like the other. Just because the distro packages a desktop a certain way doesn’t make it somehow illegal or immoral to change it to your personal liking.
And this also completely overlooks the fact that the majority of users intermix GTK apps and QT apps regardless of their DE anyways. Which really makes me wonder why the hell people waste time in these flames. I mean, if you were restricted in the apps you could run by choosing a particular desktop, fine, but really. I know the purists will say they don’t want unnecessary libraries polluting their system, but most of the rest of us don’t care and just want to use our systems whichever way works best.
So no, you’ll never see an end to the bickering. Frankly I think having Gnome and KDE (as well as the others) is brilliant because it means people have to make less compromises when working with linux, just pick what works and go with it. People who say choice makes things to complex and confusing are missing the point. My personal choice is KDE, and I feel no need to justify that to anyone. But as much as I respect someone else’s right to run Gnome and will not question their choice or make fun of them for it, I’d resent it if Gnome was the only desktop I could run on Linux. In fact, as much as KDE is my choice, I’d probably resent it if it was my only choice. That’s the kind of thinking that drove me away from Microsoft into Linux in the first place.
At the end of the day, I think, that’s all that really matters. Choice and preference. The rest is just noise. Amusing sometimes, but just noise. Best to just try them for yourself and see what you like best.
> The politicos will crow about KDE’s dual-licensing,
> claiming that nobody will want to pay for a
> development license to write closed software.
Just a little correction: KDE does not have a dual license. Kdelibs are LGPL (some parts even more liberal), and the apps shipped with KDE are mostly GPLed.
You obviously don’t need to buy a license to kdelibs to produce closed-source software (in fact, you *cannot* buy a non-LGPL one). You’d need to buy a license to Qt, though, as kdelibs depends on it. That’s probably what you were thinking of…
And that subject has already been trolled to death at osnews.com.
> and then drop in a comment questioning how the big
> players feel about LGPL permitting
> reverse-egineering of their work
This would obviously not happen as kdelibs is LGPL itself. But I see what you wanted to say…
Apart from these nitpicks: Great post!
GNOME is fater then a 5000lb cow
> GNOME is fater then a 5000lb cow
Mooooooooo Mooooooooo Moooooooooo 8)
After having read this bLog entry:
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/blog/these_are_awesome
And then followed the Screenshots provided:
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-fc4-evince-a…
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-debian-evinc…
http://www.jawebada.de/dl/evince-ss.png
I stopped believing that GNOME will ever become corporate ready.
“I stopped believing that GNOME will ever become corporate ready.”
I guess Ubuntu is “corporate ready” since it renders that PDF fine.
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6571/renderpdf0uq.jpg
“I stopped believing that GNOME will ever become corporate ready.”
I guess Ubuntu is “corporate ready” since it renders that PDF fine.
I guess Gentoo is “corporate ready” as well…
http://img434.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evince3vw.png
> I guess Gentoo is “corporate ready” as well…
It’s not, or why does it have italian (?) language in the About box but in the Toolbar and other areas it still shows english ? Poor corporate italian company who may have employees who are not aware of the english language.
evince 0.4.0 is not fully translated in italian, because the release occurred on august 26 and translators didn’t manage to add the italian support in time.
CVS is fully localized, however, and so will be the next release. Could have fixed this (it requires 30 seconds) but I didn’t care and Gentoo doesn’t fix this small glitches.
Well, guess what, I’ve just fixed it, thank you for the boost.
http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evinceit9pt.png
Isn’t evidence a work-in-progress app from the enlightenment project?
What about xpdf – I think that should be standard for gnomers (me, I’m happy with kpdf’s rendering ability)
ohhh, shoot my post down, please (along with this one) – misread evince to evidence…
Isn’t evidence a work-in-progress app from the enlightenment project?
Evince, not Evidence, is a libpoppler-based pdf/ps/other formats viewer: http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince/
BTW, kpdf is supposed to switch to libpoppler as well…
I’ve been a gnome user for a couple of years now and it’s nice to work with, I can do my work in it I can stream internetradio, surf the web etc etc.
But let’s be honest, I don’t know what the dev’s of gnome are doing but I think they are totally not focussing on important shortcomings of gnome.
Take Nautlius for example, it’s really a pain to find a file, even Windows 3.1’s filemanager was far better, why don’t they focus on that?
So without trolling, i’m starting to get a little dissapointed about gnome and with it’s current progress it’s never going to be one of the leading Linux window managers.
Look at alternatives like Enlightment, KDE, Looking Glass, progress is begin made there very fast.
It looks like GNOME is stuck at some point and all they do is bugfixing.
I hope this will change because I’m used to GNOME and it would be great if they could really improve user experience so that I can keep using it in the future.
Comparing Nautilus with Konqueror is pure nonsense, comparing GNOME with KDE is even bigger nonsense. If we get a team of developers on a Table and discuss all the crap we find between KDE and GNOME then I can tell from own experience that the answer is clearly that GNOME will fail horrible here.
IMHO gnome will konquer the world the next time (only in their dreams).
“I guess they are just insecure at the the rate at which Gnome is improving and how it has, in my opinion, overtaken KDE as the superior desktop enviroement.”
its like what many people have said. KDE has so much to compensate for, so they criticise GNOME to make KDE seem much better, less bloated, quicker, and more stable than it is or it ever will be.
Hey Ali, take a look at these:
Evince on Ubuntu 5.10:
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6571/renderpdf0uq.jpg
KPDF on Ubuntu 5.10
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3909/kpdffailedrender9fm.jpg
So I guess KDE is the one that is not “corporate ready”. LMAO
Sorry that was me, I forgot to login after switching browsers.
So, did you log in with your other account and modded your own post up?
Maybe we should continue with this movie then, which shows more GNOME related non working stuff.
http://zerv.internetcafe.nl/~nexu/lol/gnome-the-movie.avi
Show me the KDE counterpart.
Maybe we should continue with this movie then, which shows more GNOME related non working stuff.
Ah yes as in the movie you recorded of a highly unstable, development release of Gnome. So sad Ali, that you have to stoop so low.
Atleast my comparsion used STABLE Evince versus STABLE KPDF. Its very intresting how you always sidestep KDEs problems. This just reinforces that you are a brainless troll.
Sorry its me ‘carbon-12’ again. I just have different accounts for my Laptop(work) and Desktop computer.
> This just reinforces that you are a brainless troll.
This only reinforces
a) My prove that people keep using fake accounts to moderate valid comments down.
b) That you kept ignoring the fact that the evince links provided by me are hosted on a *.gnome.org server and show Evince with the same problems on Fedora Core 4 and Debian (which obviously use stable tarball releases).
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-fc4-evince-a…
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-debian-evinc…
http://www.jawebada.de/dl/evince-ss.png
c) That the guy who wrote the blog seem to be one of the core Evince developers.
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/blog/these_are_awesome
d) That there are at least half a dozen bugs reported for Evince just by me with valid confirmed bugs.
So far, since I only share my personal objective opinion on GNOME I do believe that I am right with what I say.
Assuming this, even if I use GNOME from CVS, then you can be sure that these problems do exists for months now. Also shown in that movie. And from the date of the movie till now different versions of GNOME has been released 2.12.0 – 2.13.1 which means, pretty much stable as well as testing tarballs got released but none of these bugs got fixed. Or in case they got fixed dozens of new ones have shown up meanwhile.
Evince is new – and ? It has been put into offical GNOME 2.12 release and shows the same symthoms. It’s valid to argue if something in a stable release (and beyond that) is not working correctly that this is not good for corporate needs. Half working Software is still broken software. The IT Industry in the USA do have a high standard for software and even non existing documentation, half translated software or software not working as written in the docs, or as specified is a guarantee that the company who wrote the software won’t see a buck until the software is fixed (which can easily ruin a company). Of course this is not valid for open source stuff (maybe I’m wrong but who knows) but it’s clear that the software is buggy as hell. Basic stuff not working properly means that it’s not corporate ready.
I have no issues if GNOME continues the way it is, but please understand that the marketing that GNOME does won’t help anyone. Their marketing sells GNOME as corporate ready – but it sadly isn’t and as long as this behavior continues no serious business or company will care.
Even SUN (as read in a different article) seems to be stepping away from GNOME (as JDS) to use Looking Glass for future JDS releases.
Even SUN (as read in a different article) seems to be stepping away from GNOME (as JDS) to use Looking Glass for future JDS releases.
Uh, no, they’re just shipping it because it’s cool. JDS is still 100% GNOME based, on Solaris and Linux. What they actually announced is that a bunch of the Sun apps from JDS (including StarOffice, their modifications to Mozilla and the Java VM) will be supported on other operating systems.
You’re a loon, Ali.
Uh, no, they’re just shipping it because it’s cool.
They’re not wasting their time on Looking Glass for nothing. Honestly, if and when they get Looking Glass into a stable form, can you really see them continuing to use Gnome? They can just run Gnome and other apps like Star Office and Firefox in Looking Glass anyway.
It does seem that Sun have never really went 100% with Gnome, although it’s sometimes difficult to gauge anything from Sun. You look at their JDS and it’s nothing like vanilla Gnome at all. It’s basically a clone of Windows, and when you look at Gnome UI differences like the button ordering and HIG differences you have to ask yourself why.
Ali you are incredible. I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you because your obviously not going to listen; also its time for me to get my work done.
G’day
the SUSE 10 version of KPDF (0.4.3) renders
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/61/Evince_PDF_Viewer.pdf
just fine.
I tried the antique KPDF 0.3.3 and I am only getting an small issue with the picture. The text is alright. There are so many variables that can screw up the Evince or KPDF rendering… but I guess it doesn’t matter since fanboys are not interested in finding these issues. They have bullshots to “back up” their stance.
Oh, lets begin playing the “who can produce worse pdf output screenshot” game now … I don’t understand how can your post taken seriously… Just checked it myself (had to google for the document) and it displays perfectly here: ftp://hatvani.unideb.hu/pub/personal/screenshots/evince.png
So you can LMAO as much as you want, but your screenshot only proves that your install/config/whatever is seriously screwed up.
Evince DOES have problems. For example, most of the new pdf manuals for Canon cameras do not render on Evince correctly. Check here: http://www.osnews.com/img/11800/gnome3.jpg
Are these manuals online?
Just curious how they render in kpdf – wont’ post the results, I promise
) I never used evince btw, so I don’t know anything about it – my point was about using random screenshots to prove a point 
You are totally stupid!
libpoppler do not render this pdf correctly.
But on evince and kpdf build with xpdf code, it will work perfectly!
Gnome probably only still exists at all now due to corporate sponsorship as it, and that is a mistake. Rather than pouring large amounts of money into a sinkhole, attempting to prop up something which should be allowed to die, Red Hat and whoever else are currently bankrolling Gnome should instead start syphoning those funds into KDE. It’s a lot more advanced in virtually every respect, and the comparitive popularity of the two environments speaks volumes if nothing else. Gnome is spartan, primitive, fragmented, and generally not worth bothering with.
True! All those companies should start working on improving Qt and syphoning their money into Trolltech; that way, Trolltech could charge them exorbitant amounts of money per seat, just to allow them to use the fruit of their own work.
Great idea! Really sound business! How come they haven’t thought of that?
Gotta love the fanboys who crave for Widows-like environments… lame. Enlightenment beats these noob DE’s by a great deal.
‘So I guess KDE is the one that is not “corporate ready”.’
what a surprise!
“True! All those companies should start working on improving Qt and syphoning their money into Trolltech; that way, Trolltech could charge them exorbitant amounts of money per seat, just to allow them to use the fruit of their own work.
Great idea! Really sound business! How come they haven’t thought of that?”
thats a bad idea. just think of all the work that will have to be pumped into it just to de-uglify it,de-bloat it, spped it to up to at least reasonablly usable levels, and plug all the gaps to stop konqueror and most of the apps from crashing all the time.
> konqueror and most of the apps from crashing all the time.
I rarely see Konqueror crashing, but then I use a reliable compiler (GCC 4.0.2) without “leet” CFLAGS like most people I know do. It is no secret that older versions of GCC badly supported C++ code generation but in the recent past the GCC development team did a great work to improve in this area. The new GCC compiler generates much better code but there are still cases where it still generates buggy code and one example was the “leet” CFLAGS where people go so insanily bad with them that they cause more damage at the end than anything good. I usually compile KDE using -O0 (seriously) but -O2 is very much enough. No need for extra leet flags such as -march=athlon-xp -ffunroll-loops and other stuff that might be overkill for the compiler to handle.
“I rarely see Konqueror crashing”
then you obviously have never used it – some people have to. its also exceedingly slow.
what is this trolling crap
I use konqueror all the time and it is not only quite stable but is smokin fast
now, i have to say, nautilus is also stable and very fast, but to say konqueror is slow and unstable is just ignorant, konqueror is every bit as stable as nautilus and just as fast (if not just a little bit faster).
I use both Gnome and KDE and I like both. They both have their faults and strong points, but as far as speed and stability…… they are not much different (maybe a slight variation between apps)
anyway, my main point……. stop bitching about kde (gnome people), and stop bitching about gnome (kde people)…… how about we just learn from the competition and build a better product (kde and gnome)
“konqueror is every bit as stable as nautilus and just as fast (if not just a little bit faster).”
how can konqueror be as fast as nautilus when konqueror is bloated as heck? next you’ll be saying that open office’s word processor is faster than abiword or kwrite.
well, if you mean by having the features that i need to efficiently do my job, yes, it is bloated, but……. even with this “bloat” it is still as fast or maybe even slightly faster then nautilus, i suggest you try a recent version of konqueror on a decent linux distro
don’t get me wrong, i use Gnome (nautilus) all the time and it is fast as well……… but certainly not faster or more stable, they are on par with eachother
why compare something that you clearly have no relevant or recent knowlege of?
most people that have used both agree……… kde fanboys only use kde and think it is the best
Gnome fanboys only use Gnome and think it is the best
people who use both know the truth…….. both are good for certain things…… and bad for other things but on par with eachother when it comes to speed and stability.
“why compare something that you clearly have no relevant or recent knowlege of?”
you mean using konqueror 3.4.0-6 about 12 hours ago!? how recent do you want?
..then your install is borked.
There is alot of work that needs to be done with Gnome.The recent upgrade comes with a half written nenu editor. I use smeg its better. Why not incorporate this stuff into the DE and get rid of unnecessary services that start and slow down the pc. I dont need pcmcia support services started if I am using a desktop..
Konqueror has gotten as fast or not faster then nautils with 3.4 kde. With its split view options and other options it is way better then nautilus. But…I will say being a long time user of KDE, I am using gnome 2.12 in ubuntu and cannot stand looking at KDE anymore, with clearlooks, Blended theme (from gnome-look.org), and nuoveXT icons from (gnome-look.org) and the default ubuntu wallpaper, this is the best looking o.s. i have used, especially the integration of the look among apps. Quite impressive, KDE has better apps, quicker, and better file management at the moment, but with Gnome’s useability, looks, and ubuntu distro..I havent been this happy with a distro in a long time.
I’ve been using GNOME for 2 years now. Every release has more features. They also DO fix bugs. However, what concerns me much is that they introduce more and more new bugs. Especially the code for new features is of a bit low quality. For example:
1. Evince and Gpdf in Gnome 2.12.x don’t show pdflatex-generated documents at all. They just show blank pages. In previous releases, Gpdf (and evince <= 0.3) worked fine. Evince 0.3 was the best pdf viewer I’ve ever seen, but 0.4 is MUCH worse.
2. Nautilus crashes when creating thumbnails. This happened in 2.10.0, 2.10.1, 2.10.2, 2.12.0 and 2.12.1 (perhaps in older ones too). I can’t open my “Desktop/Downloads” folder right now unless I turn of thumbnails.
3. Epiphany constantly crashes when viewing some pages (on http://www.wp.pl). Mozilla, the libs of which ephy uses, works fine.
However, they also fix bugs. I remember panel applets were crashing badly before 2.8 release. They work fine now.
Did you report those on http://bugzilla.gnome.org ?
This is a message to everyone. The next time you are considering writing a reply containing any of the following sentances please make the suggest improvements I have listed below;
1)”now, i have to say, nautilus is also stable and very fast, but to say konqueror is slow and unstable is just ignorant, konqueror is every bit as stable as nautilus and just as fast (if not just a little bit faster)”
YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADD THE “(if not just a little bit faster)” – It just gives people who disagree with your view the ability to disregard your post as trolling.
2)There is alot of work that needs to be done with Gnome.
Well thanks alot, thats about as useful as saying the sky outside is blue. There is alot of work that needs to be done on ANY software. You deserve a phd for your observation, where can I shake your hand and give you a medal
3)”and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on”
Yes an honest evaluation of the two distributions will be beneficial to the open source community. NOT. It will only serve to stoke the flames on the issue.
Thankyou for your time
I would be thankful if people stopped comparing Nautilus with Konqueror. These applications are two entirely different things build ontop of totally different technology.
While Nautilus is just a Filemanager (which besides this doesn’t perform well or reliable enough) Konqueror on the other hand is just a “Window” around the KParts/KIOSlaves system providing an interface to these plugins.
See it like a plugin system that you can expand unlimited. You write a ChickenGame Plugin and you can play chicken game inside Konqueror. You write an SQL plugin and you can query SQL databases from inside Konqueror. The most prefered and default features for Konqueror therefore is Webbrowsing as well as Filemanaging but it can be extended to whatever required.
This is also no disadvantage as some people might say since the KParts/KIOSlaves system is the heart of KDE, you write a plugin and every other application can share it. You write one HTML plugin and you can use it in any app you need it.
Also please stop talking about KDE and GNOME being in competition. There is no real competition between both of them not even close to that. There would be a competition between XFCE and GNOME if you wish but definately not between KDE and GNOME otherwise you won’t see GNOME people working for Red Hat (to not name someone now) who recently addmited that KDE is far ahead of GNOME in many areas.
A competition requires that both desktops offer similar features and tasks but GNOME is by far too broken and don’t perfom basic stuff well and reliable enough.
> This just reinforces that you are a brainless troll.
This only reinforces
a) My prove that people keep using fake accounts to moderate valid comments down.
b) That you kept ignoring the fact that the evince links provided by me are hosted on a *.gnome.org server and show Evince with the same problems on Fedora Core 4 and Debian (which obviously use stable tarball releases).
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-fc4-evince-a…..
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-debian-evinc…..
http://www.jawebada.de/dl/evince-ss.png
c) That the guy who wrote the blog seem to be one of the core Evince developers.
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/blog/these_are_awesome
d) That there are at least half a dozen bugs reported for Evince just by me with valid confirmed bugs.
So far, since I only share my personal objective opinion on GNOME I do believe that I am right with what I say.
Assuming this, even if I use GNOME from CVS, then you can be sure that these problems do exists for months now. Also shown in that movie. And from the date of the movie till now different versions of GNOME has been released 2.12.0 – 2.13.1 which means, pretty much stable as well as testing tarballs got released but none of these bugs got fixed. Or in case they got fixed dozens of new ones have shown up meanwhile.
Evince is new – and ? It has been put into offical GNOME 2.12 release and shows the same symthoms. It’s valid to argue if something in a stable release (and beyond that) is not working correctly that this is not good for corporate needs. Half working Software is still broken software. The IT Industry in the USA do have a high standard for software and even non existing documentation, half translated software or software not working as written in the docs, or as specified is a guarantee that the company who wrote the software won’t see a buck until the software is fixed (which can easily ruin a company). Of course this is not valid for open source stuff (maybe I’m wrong but who knows) but it’s clear that the software is buggy as hell. Basic stuff not working properly means that it’s not corporate ready.
I have no issues if GNOME continues the way it is, but please understand that the marketing that GNOME does won’t help anyone. Their marketing sells GNOME as corporate ready – but it sadly isn’t and as long as this behavior continues no serious business or company will care.
Even SUN (as read in a different article) seems to be stepping away from GNOME (as JDS) to use Looking Glass for future JDS releases.
Evince has bugs as any other free PDF reader, but compared to the prior gpdf is a blessing.
Ali again shows his video about a CVS version of gnome that had, surprisingly, bugs. And we discover in awe that he reads planet.gnome.org to get more data to troll on OSnews.
Wow, if that’s not dedication I don’t know what it is. Oh, wait, I know: obsession.
Does anyone know if they are going to include an api to specify the xcomposite transparency for a toplevel GdkWindow?
Gnome was founded as a political reaction to KDE’s licensing about five years back: all the pragmatists who just wanted to make a good desktop stayed with KDE as the most advanced project (one that started a year earlier and had quite a head start), and all the idealists who cared more about licensing terms than code that worked went off to do Gnome. Throw in a few totally boneheaded moves, and the fact that their stuff just isn’t comfortable to USE (even if it was more functional, it’s simply not a pleasant desktop experience), and then the infrastructure nightmare that is Bonobo.
Gnome was founded as a political reaction to KDE’s licensing about five years back: all the pragmatists who just wanted to make a good desktop stayed with KDE as the most advanced project
Well I for one am really glad that the people who ended up going off with Gnome never got involved with KDE. For that reason I’m glad that Gnome exists. Looking back on some of those mailing list conversations just makes you say “Oh dear”.
When Matthias Ettrich came up with KDE you could see clearly in the comments of some of these people around the FSF, and now Gnome, that they thought they had missed a trick. KDE had started something, a usable Unix desktop, that they hadn’t thought of first, so they had to have it. If KDE had totally acceptable licensing then they would have tried to force themselves on the project to gain some sort of control, or, as happened, they would find things wrong with it so they could start their own.
IIRC Miguel de Icaza initially worked on KDE in the beginning but then was told to go away. After his ego and feelings got hit badly he trashed together existing applications and converted them to use GTK+ over the time the GNOME desktop saw its light.
I am not sure whether this myth was real but then I keep hearing it from time to time
I was also told that he joined the KDE developers IRC channel around the 3.x announce time and whined about the suckage (clusterf–k (to say it with his own words)) that GNOME represents today. From what I know he was quite excited and impressed about the good shape and usefulness that KDE has shown (and this with the 3.x release already).
Even Owen Taylor (one of the Red Hat lead developers) seem to have realized that KDE is far ahead of GNOME (there is a blog entry somewhere but don’t nail me on that). I mean these arguments speak for itself.
It is not a myth. you can still read the archives from the very early KDE times on http://lists.kde.org
It’s not a myth. There are many mailing list entries to browse, and he was on IRC a few times. In fact, there were a few people around KDE, including Richard Stallman, when it first started up.
It’s not worth dwelling on. I’m just glad that some of these people went off and did something else. We ended up with GTK, which is a different option for people and that you can use with different desktops, and a number of other things. I think we would have ended up with two desktops anyway just due to different personalities. If KDE had become a crowded project then I think it would have failed, and with it, any hope of desktop Linux at all.
you won’t see GNOME people working for Red Hat (to not name someone now) who recently addmited that KDE is far ahead of GNOME in many areas.
Even Owen Taylor (one of the Red Hat lead developers) seem to have realized that KDE is far ahead of GNOME
Really? I didn’t know that. Where?
> Really? I didn’t know that. Where?
It was written in an article in the first quarter of this year. I was now searching for it for nearly 20 mins but couldn’t find it. If I recall correctly then it was related to the ‘desktoplinux’ results where KDE has shown 2-3 times more users than on GNOME.
In case you find it before me, then please post a link. I keep on seeking.
you won’t see GNOME people working for Red Hat (to not name someone now) who recently addmited that KDE is far ahead of GNOME in many areas.
Even Owen Taylor (one of the Red Hat lead developers) seem to have realized that KDE is far ahead of GNOME
The only reason KDE is ahed is because the propietary ToolKit Qt, TrollTech works on it full time.
But of course, you won’t get more than a forced GPL license or an expensive tax to use it.
GTK is developed for less people and mostly volunteers, given the advantage KDE has in this area is not weird KDE is better in some places.
And of course, its totally free and get the work done and done well.
To me GNOME is better and is getting better despite the disadvantage they have.
The only reason KDE is ahed is because the propietary ToolKit Qt
It’s not a proprietary toolkit.
Call it whatever you want, is still ruled by TrollTech.
Call it whatever you want, is still ruled by TrollTech.
Sun called Red Hat proprietary, and in a way they’re right, simply because these people payed full-time control major open source projects like GTK and Gnome. GTK is controlled by a bunch of Red Hat developers, and all the project politics that goes with it. Try getting a patch into GTK without being part of the ‘club’. Being open, and allegedly not being tied to one company (the usual tosh people come out with) is about an awful lot more than a license.
Actually, you only wan’t to twist the reallity, GTK is free and LGPL, not like Qt, that is owned by TrollTech, simple, even if you try to denie it with false claims about GTK, honestly, why don’t you better read news rellated to KDE if this makes you angry so much?
Actually, you only wan’t to twist the reallity, GTK is free and LGPL, not like Qt, that is owned by TrollTech,
As I said – being open, and an open source project where people can freely contribute, is about being more than a license. Gnome and GTK are owned by companies like Red Hat, Sun and any other corporate the Gnome Foundation can drag on board like Nokia. They’re the ones who are going to take control and decide the direction of the whole thing, not people like you.
even if you try to denie it with false claims about GTK
Have you tried to get a patch in, or seen someone who has tried?
why don’t you better read news rellated to KDE if this makes you angry so much?
It doesn’t make me angry in the slightest (although you might wish I was!) – it’s just a bit of fun.
As I said – being open, and an open source project where people can freely contribute, is about being more than a license. Gnome and GTK are owned by companies like Red Hat, Sun and any other corporate the Gnome Foundation can drag on board like Nokia.
Honestly dude, you have a big imagination, go and read KDE related news, that is what you like, maybe you feel better.
It doesn’t make me angry in the slightest (although you might wish I was!) – it’s just a bit of fun.
In other words, you have no life.
Honestly dude, you have a big imagination
Hmmm, no. It’s true – Gnome and GTK are owned by these companies. They’re the gatekeepers of the code and everything that gets in.
In other words, you have no life.
Ha, ha, ha! What are you doing here then? Feel free to get one!
No it’s not an awful lot more than a license. If you don’t like the direction Gtk is moving, you can fork it and take over maintainership. You can’t do this with Qt without losing the possibility to create non-GPL KDE applications. Whether this is a problem for you or not is an entirely different question which I don’t care about, but it does effectively put a depdendency on Trolltech which some people feel uneasy about to have in the core platform stack.
If you don’t like the direction Gtk is moving, you can fork it and take over maintainership.
If you don’t like it feel free to maintain GTK by yourself! How often have you heard an open source developer say that when they don’t like what you’re saying? Why do they say it? Because they know you can’t do it!
You can’t do this with Qt without losing the possibility to create non-GPL KDE applications.
For a quality open source desktop that wants to be taken seriously that hardly matters, but with the right stack above that (like you have above the Linux kernel) it is entirely possible.
but it does effectively put a depdendency on Trolltech which some people feel uneasy about to have in the core platform stack.
You’re going to have to depend on companies and individuals with a lot more selfish and corporate interests than Trolltech have to have any kind of chance of realistically maintaining a project like GTK yourself. Anybody who thinks they have any sort of freedom there is deluding themselves.
It is not about you or me maintaining Gtk by ourself. It is about the fact that any competitor to Red Hat could pick up Gtk and develop it into a different direction, without any limitations. If you want to ignore this difference, don’t expect me to bother.
It is not about you or me maintaining Gtk by ourself. It is about the fact that any competitor to Red Hat could pick up Gtk and develop it into a different direction, without any limitations.
Anybody’s free to pick up Apache as well, but guess what the de-facto standard project is still going to be? Whatever though, they are still going to have to maintain it.
Whatever you do with the source code as a fork will be meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The most you can do to prevent that scenario of lock-in is to use the source code to find out how something works and integrate with it to avoid any sort of monopoly. You can still do that with Qt because it’s there, and it’s something the LSB people have been extremely keen to avoid.
You can still do that with Qt because it’s there, and it’s something the LSB people have been extremely keen to avoid.
Trying to justify Qt at any cost is useless, the reallity is other, what he said is rigth you can fork it as you wan’t you certaintly don’t have such option with Qt because is controlled by Trolltech and they have the last word, with GTK you can fork it and have you the last word, GTK is more free than Qt, as simple as that.
Manuma, you are a f–kin’ troll. People should have a look at your account to see how many of your poor posts have been nuked down.
And till now I haven’t see him insult anyone just express his opinions, he is not insulting like you, grow up.
Anybody’s free to pick up Apache as well, but guess what the de-facto standard project is still going to be?
If people wouldn’t be happy with the work of the Apache project anymore, it would most likely be the fork. The relatively recent x.org incident shows how fast this can go. Imagine x.org would only be available under the GPL, so all applications linking against the new xlibs (which pretty much includes everything) would have to be released under the GPL as well. This would not be feasable for any distributor, so we would still be stuck with XFree86 for the most part.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, so there is nothing to argue about.
Call it whatever you want, is still ruled by TrollTech.
lets say Qt is ruled by a group of developer who does with it what they want. And you can say the same about Gtk+ and every other project!
At the end Qt and Gtk+ are Free Software, both have a strong development team who makes the decisions, and if some people don’t like it they can try to influence the development or start a fork.
Personally i love GNOME and couldn’t imagine to use KDE. But please try to be fair whether you like GNOME, KDE or any other Desktop/Windowmanager
lets say Qt is ruled by a group of developer who does with it what they want. And you can say the same about Gtk+ and every other project!
I can take GTK sources hacke it on my own way and even sell it if I wan’t, I can even make my own type of license,can you do the same with Qt? not in a million years. is not that hard to figure it out.
GTK is totally free, Qt is ruled by TrollTech, simple.
I can take GTK sources hacke it on my own way
You could do that with Qt, but let’s face it, who’s going to maintain a piece of software like Qt or GTK on their own? It’s the resources stupid!
and even sell it if I wan’t
You could (and you could sell a GPL’d Qt), but you still have to release the source that you’ve created because GTK is licensed under the LGPL. You still have to disclose the source code – it’s not a BSD license!
not in a million years. is not that hard to figure it out.
You have no clue what you’re talking about.
GTK is totally free, Qt is ruled by TrollTech, simple.
Qt’s development is controlled by Trolltech and the Free Qt guidelines laid down guarantee its future independent of Trolltech.
GTK is a large project, and is controlled mainly by Red Hat, and a few developers from Sun and Novell. If they don’t like it your face your patches don’t get in. You could always fork it (just as you can with Qt), but are you really going to be able to do that by yourself?
Dream on.
GTK is a large project, and is controlled mainly by Red Hat, and a few developers from Sun and Novell.
That is what you want to believe, because it makes you happy, you wan’t to believe Qt is more free than GTK, you wan’t to believe that GTK is evil, you wan’t to believe KDE is the victim, you wan’t to believe there’s is a Boston conspirancy againts KDE, in other words, you wan’t to denie the reallity, to bad, because you are only making KDE and Qt looks worse, no one reading your comments will switch to KDE because you paranoic hipotesis, simple, you wan’t to promote KDE? stay away from GNOME related news, you are only making think worse for KDE.
Because I got sick an tired by the hijacking of every single Gnome news item on the regular sites like osnews. And the sadest part is if I look at the reactions, only a view persons take advantage of every oppertunity to bash Gnome. It seems like a personal vendetta, very sad!
I get sick and tired of this gnome bashing but here is why I use gnome.
1. Simple minimal look with easy theme install.
2. No other DE looks like gnome and it has a different experience.
3. I love spatial nautilus, no other filemanager is like it.
4. The features that get implemented are always minimal but functional.
5. The menu is very well layed out and both my mum and uncle agree, I’ll never understand why people whine about a menu editor (good menu designs dont need one)
6. It’s good to see even KDE using idea’s from gnome, just look as KDE 3.5beta with the panel(just like gnome).
7. The volume manager is great for manageing your devices rather than a complex control panel.
8. Gnome control center is simple but just enough configuration not to confuse you.
9. The “Places” menu is a simple way of seeing where things are without the need for desktop shortcuts.
10. Default layout of gnome is natural with the panel andf menu at the top, since we all read top to bottom, left to right.
Points 1 – 10 are in no ways related to the requirements of a corporate. These are kids playtoy thingies but nothing that would impress a company.
You all amaze me, you really do. We get screenshots of Evince working, some of KPDF working, some of Evince broken, some of KPDF broken in the same way. Could it be the common base, libpoppler, that’s at fault? Gee you think?
Though it’s a bit funny when one works and another doesn’t on the same box as claimed by someone above..
Meh. Still using kghostview here hehe
Great, but I won’t be using the latest Gnome because I’m still on 2.10 in Debian. I prefer Gnome to KDE because of it’s (relative) simplicity, but I can’t help feeling that the KDE team appear a bit better organized, especially in terms of fixing bugs and optimizing apps.
Imho, it’s not cool to release unfinished apps like Evince because they just drag down everything else. Maybe the Gnome team need to concentrate less on “cool stuff” and more on the boring old business of a really really well-polished, complete and so far as possible bug-free DE. Imho, it’s this, not features, that will attract loyal users.
That said, my principal DE is xfce4.2. It’s fast, neat, clean, stable and uses noticeably fewer system resources than the big two. It does everything I want and does it well. Respect to the dev team!
The Gnome bashers here want you to believe that Gnome is a mess, but some of the nicest desktop independent infrastructure features that are popping up all over the place are a direct spin-off from gnome-first technology, like dbus-hal, gstreamer, libpoppler.
The Gnome community tries to make the infrastructure that makes great desktops desktop independant and KDE is more like there is only one way and that is the KDE way.
Same with language bindings look at the many applications in Gnome files using python, mono, perl. In KDE C++ is the king.
Need to have a moratorium. You need to just post the links to all stories on
gnome
kde
Apple
Microsoft
and maybe one or two others
with no comments allowed. For at least a month, till all these people go away. Its like visiting a kindergarten full of deranged illiterates, it inspires horror and pity, but its a complete waste of time if information is your purpose.
After a month, you could try making postings only possible from registered subscribers with real email addresses. Probably by then they will all have moved on somewhere else. Got to do something though. You still do have some readers who post informative, reasonable and good humoured comments, but you won’t have them much longer if you allow them to be drowned out by this stuff. And if you don’t do something soon, it will spread to all the topics. At that point, the site will die.
on still the bottom line that KDE people find impossible to accept is that all the big companies are ignoring KDE and going with gnome. instead, they spend their time bashing gnome to detract away from the inherent inadaquacies of kde. sad.
Exactly, the frustration of see GNOME success big time and see KDE fail thanks to the bad desition of use Qt makes them angry and of course bash GNOME, I can only feel sorry for them and ignored them, nothing in the world will distractme of the best free DE, and that DE ladies and gentlemen is called GNOME.
Dream on.
Exactly, the frustration of see GNOME success big time and see KDE fail thanks to the bad desition of use Qt makes them angry and of course bash GNOME, I can only feel sorry for them and ignored them, nothing in the world will distractme of the best free DE, and that DE ladies and gentlemen is called GNOME.
ROTFL turn in your bed
G.N.O.M.E
Gnome Users Offer Medieval Environment
on still the bottom line that KDE people find impossible to accept is that all the big companies are ignoring KDE and going with gnome.
I love how this keeps cropping up. Some people have filled you so full of hype that they’ve convinced you that Gnome is being used by these big companies, but what big companies? Tell me, where does this crap keep coming from?
Red Hat uses it as the graphical interface for its servers, Sun uses a bit of it for their non-selling JDS and Novell has no clue what they’re doing with it because they use KDE in all their selling products. As for big non-IT companies – who’s using Gnome? No big companies are using KDE either, but you won’t find any KDE people trying to vainly convince everyboody else otherwise.
You can’t probe the contrary, if they say it is deployed in many bussines I believe them, but if don’t what do you care? aren’t you happy enougth with KDE to investigate what other desktops are doing? if you really like KDE as much you people claim then stop reading GNOME news and go read news about KDE, oh I forgot, you all feel the frustration of seeing GNOME succes and KDE fail.
You can’t probe the contrary
Sounds painful.
if they say it is deployed in many bussines I believe them
Believe who? After many years of Gnome supposedly being this incredible corporate desktop, no major installations in companies of any kind have ever materialised. Feel free to keep believing.
if you really like KDE as much you people claim then stop reading GNOME news
Well, stuff like this and poking people is fun! Hell, that’s the only reason I do it when whiling away some internet time!
And keep in mind people like you started this whole Gnome corporate desktop thing, Gnome is the choice for business, Gnome has a better license for businesses, bal, blah, blah, etc. etc. No one else did – you brought this on yourselves.
you all feel the frustration of seeing GNOME succes and KDE fail.
Depends how you measure success I suppose. I certainly don’t see it.
Well, stuff like this and poking people is fun! Hell, that’s the only reason I do it when whiling away some internet time!
In other words, you have no life.
In other words, you have no life.
Nice try, but yes I do actually. All I’m doing is whiling away some internet time while twits like you try and keep on claiming that Gnome is a corporate desktop, licensing, etc. etc.
People like you haven’t had any sort of life at all, or had any sort of breakthrough with Gnome as a business desktop since, well, ever.
Nice try, but yes I do actually
You actions probe the contrary.
You actions probe the contrary.
Oooohh, painful! Learn to speak English properly before coming here.
you all feel the frustration of seeing GNOME succes and KDE fail
you mean KDE success
http://dot.kde.org/1130188084/
http://dot.kde.org/1129483687/
That’s good, why don’t you put those links in a KDE related news? oh I forgot, KDE is not good enought for you and you have to come to GNOME related news to feel completly.
> That’s good, why don’t you put those links in a KDE
> related news? oh I forgot, KDE is not good enought for
> you and you have to come to GNOME related news to feel
> completly.
Well what else can we do, if OSN does put 10 GNOME related articles online compared to 5 others where 1 of them might be a small KDE one every now and then. The editors here put only GNOME stuff online. Some days they even post 3-5 articles concerning GNOME and as counter they post 1 KDE article maybe once in a month.
Well what else can we do, if OSN does put 10 GNOME related articles online compared to 5 others where 1 of them might be a small KDE one every now and then.
Then why do you keep coming to OSNEWW?
No one is forcing you, go to kde.org or something if you are not happy here.
> Then why do you keep coming to OSNEWW?
Because I love seeing kids like you drive mad
It makes me get a stiff penis…
Actually, you only wan’t to twist the reallity, GTK is free and LGPL, not like Qt
While Qt are GPL, just as Free and with the license FSF prefer. You are the one trying to twist reality.
even if you try to denie it with false claims about GTK,
False claims? I only saw the claim of GTK being maintained and developed mainly by Red Hat. It’s both the truth and what gives RH de-facto controll over GTK.
I can take GTK sources hacke it on my own way and even sell it if I wan’t, I can even make my own type of license, can you do the same with Qt?
No you can’t actually, if you make any changes to GTK and distribute it you have to license it LGPL. All your rights to distribution(selling) are decided by the LGPL. And you can do the exactly same with Qt, as you are given the rights to by the GPL.
“No you can’t actually, if you make any changes to GTK and distribute it you have to license it LGPL. All your rights to distribution(selling) are decided by the LGPL. And you can do the exactly same with Qt, as you are given the rights to by the GPL.”
this still leaves the burning question: why are all the companies who want to put their money where their mouth is in promoting, or developing on, a DE, still avoiding kde in preference to gnome?
Do you mean? I can’t GPL a GTK application? please some one tell to all the developers of GTK-GPL application the need to change the GPL to LGPL inmediatly.
GTK is LPGL and free, is simple, you only have to acept it.
this still leaves the burning question: why are all the companies who want to put their money where their mouth is in promoting, or developing on, a DE, still avoiding kde in preference to gnome?
Well “all” the companies you are talking about are Red Hat, Sun, and a lesser degree Nokia and Novell, and they have already answered. It’s about controll, and they all pay to get GTK where they want. So it’s not even a hot question.
From a economic standpoint it would have been wiser for Red Hat to used the money they spend on GTK to buy Qt licenses to every developer now making proprietary applications on Gnome. Would have saved them tons of money.
“It’s about controll, and they all pay to get GTK where they want. So it’s not even a hot question.”
with companies that size, buying trolltech would be like a millionaire giving someone a few quid pocket money. trolltech is not exactly wallmart. its a miniscule company. once they’ve got it, they could do whatever they wanted with the licence and change it to suit their own ends. so it still leaves the question: why are all the companies choosing gtk/gnome above qt/kde?
“Would have saved them tons of money.”
how do you work that one out?
“Would have saved them tons of money.”
how do you work that one out?
Simple really, don’t you se it:-) While they spend lots of money on GTK, they pay people to work on it you know. There are not even rumours of anyone, anywhere making proprietary applications for Gnome.
“While they spend lots of money on GTK, they pay people to work on it you know.”
but if it was all to do with control as you’re saying, then it would be better for them to buy trolltech for peanuts and adjust the licence to their own ends. if they bought trolltech, they would still have to ‘work on it’ in the same way that they would have to ‘work on’ gtk. so if its not about control and its not about the licence, there must be something else thats making them consistantly favour gnome over kde. so it must be all to do with what kde and gnome presently have to offer, yet they are still favouring gnome as being the more suitable to offer the customer.
How can you buy Trolltech when there are different stockholders ? It’s not like going into a store for buying a candy or something.
“How can you buy Trolltech when there are different stockholders ? It’s not like going into a store for buying a candy or something.”
easy. the same way as any other takeover. in fact it would be considerably easier because trolltech is a tiny company. it would be just the same as adobe taking over dreamweaver etc. its no problem when there are profits to be made. yet they choose not to and support gnome instead of kde.
Whoever owns a majority of the stock (or a group of owners that make up a majority) can choose to sell the company and everyone else has no choice but to go along with it. This is why owning 51% (a majority) of stock in a company is talked about so much.
Not true at all.
I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop. We use many GNOME libraries. Workstation and the Player both fit well into the GNOME desktop. Many of the developers who make that happen were hired from GNOME-related projects. So your statement is flawed. Please refrain from making such bold statements without research
> I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are
> designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop.
Does it ? Why does VMware have a ‘drag handle’ in the menu ? Why doesn’t VMware obey the ‘Menus & Toolbars’ settings ? And why does it come with all the GTK+ libraries bundled in the resulting tarball which makes VMware which initially was some mb’s become 85mb and more ?
It does. I work on that part, so I’m quite sure I have a better understanding of this than you do.
The drag handle is something a few different programs have. It depends on how you pack your menubar. That doesn’t make us not target GNOME. Next!
We do obey the Menus and Toolbars settings. You just need to make sure you didn’t override that in VMware.
It comes with the libraries bundled because we have to support everything from Red Hat 7.3 to the latest and greatest. This is just reality. This also doesn’t mean we don’t target GNOME.
I’m honestly surprised you’re trying to debate this fact with me.
> We do obey the Menus and Toolbars settings. You just
> need to make sure you didn’t override that in VMware.
But this option is irritating, VMware don’t need to override anything if it simply followed the Menus and Toolbars setting since this is the ‘global’ overrider. Care to tell me where I can turn off the VMware draghandle for th emenu ? It doesn’t look very well together with Clearlooks’ menu gradients.
The drag handle can’t be turned off.
The option for the toolbars is there because not every user of VMware is going to run a GNOME desktop, or a version of GNOME high enough to support setting this on a global basis. So by default, it uses GNOME settings, unless you force it to something else.
> The drag handle can’t be turned off.
>
> The option for the toolbars is there because not every > user of VMware is going to run a GNOME desktop, or a
> version of GNOME high enough to support setting this on
> a global basis. So by default, it uses GNOME settings,
> unless you force it to something else.
Excuse me, but I don’t understand this. You said that VMare embedds nicely into GNOME but then it doesn’t because you can’t set the draghandle for the menu inside the menu and toolbars capplet ? And now you said you can’t turn it off at all. Please beg pardon but what kind of integration is that ? The GNOME version I am running is high enough to deal with this (whatever that means) and the menu and toolbar capplet is the correct way to interact with this stuff. Integration means supporting it. If it doesn’t support it then it’s not GNOME conform or not as integrated as you might want to make your customers believe.
The default behavior for GTK+ should be no draghandle for menu, no draghandle for toolbar. The default behavior for GNOME should be “obey the rules set through the menus and toolbar capplet”. The capplet where you can set the toolbar draghandle, the behavior of the toolbar (icon only, text only etc…) and within gconf-editor you should be able to enable or disable the menu draghandle.
If VMware would have been using the KDE Desktop then there would only be a common way doing this since you deal with full supported Toolbar objects than can’t malfunction. I think you people at VMare need to improve in this area and make it behave correctly to the way how it’s done. Now you are a known GNOME guy, as well as philip and as you correctly said, I shouldn’t have to tell you how it should work – but sadly I had to.
If VMware would have been using the KDE Desktop then there would only be a common way doing this since you deal with full supported Toolbar objects than can’t malfunction.
And they would have to expend thousans fo dollars in licenses, they made the right desition, VMWare is a hit a a great application, you are only frustrated because they choosed GTK/GNOME instead Qt/KDE, they made the right desition Cudos to VMWare developers.
How many fake accounts do you have ?
> And they would have to expend thousans fo dollars in
> licenses, they made the right desition, VMWare is a hit
> a a great application, you are only frustrated because
> they choosed GTK/GNOME instead Qt/KDE, they made the
> right desition Cudos to VMWare developers.
Uhm, your explaination is quite stupid. The question would be how many dollars are VMWare getting with each sold VMWare key ? Probably much more than the license they had to pay for using QT. Or are you telling us, you use a pirate version of VMWare ? Dare you, you make people like ChipX86 become unemployed maybe.
http://www.vmware.com/vmwarestore/pricing.html
VMware GSX Server 3 (for Windows operating systems and Linux systems)
Electronic Software Distribution
2 Processors US $1694.00 * BUY
Unlimited Processors US $3388.00 * BUY
I can’t consider this to be “cheap” even the workstation versions ain’t cheap. So how does these prices compare to what they had to pay Trolltech for using QT ? 20 developer licenses would mean, selling 10 GSX Servers with unlimited processors.
Uhm, your explaination is quite stupid. The question would be how many dollars are VMWare getting with each sold VMWare key ?
Now imagine how much would VMWare cost if you add the license of Qt cost? maybe triple. GTK is the right way to go, Qt/KDE is only destinated to fail, is to damn expensive, GTK will succes in other projects, you can be sure.
> Now imagine how much would VMWare cost if you add the
> license of Qt cost? maybe triple.
Thats pure bullshit and only proves that you have no slightest clue about economics.
> GTK will succes in other projects, you can be sure.
I am sure about is that VMWare of course did the right decision for going with GTK+, they don’t need to pay for GTK+ but still make the biggest profit out of the work from volunteers.
I feel sorry for the poor souls working their ass off on improving, fixing, translating and contributing to GTK+ only to fill the money bags of bigger companies.
I don’t condem VMWare for doing this but then, your VMWare defendings is simply plain stupid, since you don’t have anything from it, you don’t help those who work their ass off on GTK+ even without payment.
I think you just made a lot of GTK+ contributors become more upset because I know pretty much a few people who do feel ‘abused’ in a way.
Isn’t this economics great. A lot of people who don’t have much understanding about economics, trapped in this illusion called open source and free software working their tail off, don’t get anything for it (not even working desktop) for the benefits of those who sell commercial products and who drive the big BMW or Mercedes or live in a 200 square meter villa with good furniture and great meal, while those who work their ass off on GTK+ probably don’t know how to pay their next bills.
But then, the times where open source and free software still had the meaning it initially had (which I consider to be honourful) are over. Get real, it’s all about cash, everything is manipulateable with money, you can even buy loyalist people (like OSN) for promoting GNOME and other stuff, you only need to dump the right amount of cash down their throath.
So that’s why I believe that QT and Trolltech are doing fine here. I also believe that VMWare is doing fine and most other companies who try to make a few bucks to pay their employees, to pay fixed and variable costs and try to do something seriously productive. The primary fools are just those contributors who still believe in pride, in open source and free software – what a joke!
I feel sorry for the poor souls working their ass off on improving, fixing, translating and contributing to GTK+ only to fill the money bags of bigger companies.
And TrollTech is doing it all for charity, GROW UP.
> And TrollTech is doing it all for charity ?
I didn’t said that. I only said that the volunteer developers working their tail off on GTK+ seem to be doing this for charity.
And what is wrong with it? ain’t that the goal of free software? better than make rich a company in Norway.
> And what is wrong with it? ain’t that the goal of free
> software? better than make rich a company in Norway.
Better make one company rich in Norway, who seriously worked their ass off on QT, rather than making companies like SUN, NOVELL, RED HAT, VMWARE rich from the work done by volunteers – who don’t see a f–kin’ penny. Not even the “imaginary” money spent by those companies towards GNOME (some did) is showing up in the moneybags of those who contribute. I haven’t seen one single contributer receiving one penny out of these big donations.
Better make one company rich in Norway, who seriously worked their ass off on QT, rather than making companies like SUN, NOVELL, RED HAT, VMWARE rich from the work done by volunteers – who don’t see a f–kin’ penny.
Nobody is forcing them, what do you care?
You are dening reallity, and the reallity is that GTK/GNOME is a great option, it doesn’t matter how much you and other trolls think about it, GTK/GNOME will stay.
Better make one company rich in Norway, who seriously worked their ass off on QT, rather than making companies like SUN, NOVELL, RED HAT, VMWARE rich from the work done by volunteers – who don’t see a f–kin’ penny.
Right you mean like:
-the 500 free 770/Maemo that Nokia gave to the Gnome developers
– Red Hat who hired many of the Gnome developers so they can work full-time
-VMWare who hired Gnome developer Christian Hammond
-Canonical hired Jeff Waugh and many other Gnome developers.
-Novell hired Tor L, the volunteer that worked free on the Win32 GTK+ port and David R who was volunteering his time on Glitz/XGL/Gnome
….theres a shitload more.
> – the 500 free 770/Maemo that Nokia gave to the Gnome
> developers
This is called Marketing or Public Relations. We all knew that there was quite some articles floating around on the world where it was said that Nokia supported the Patents stuff from the EU. So it’s also an image thing. The 770’s iirc weren’t free. You had to pay 99$ usd for them. I think for Nokia this was just a +/- Null round and don’t fall into weight compared to the 50000 they might be selling due to the Public Relations of those 500 Linux users who use them. Mouth to Mouth propaganda.
> – Red Hat who hired many of the Gnome developers so
> they can work full-time
Red Hat hired the majority of active GTK+ developers. There are also other developers working on GNOME but those are not hired by Red Hat to work on it, they are doing this in their spare time after work but keep using @redhat.com for writing emails or changelog entries.
> – VMWare who hired Gnome developer Christian Hammond
That’s pretty much ok. Christian Hammond is just one person of the “thousands of GNOME contributors” as the GNOME PR machinery tells the public.
> – Canonical hired Jeff Waugh and many other Gnome
> developers.
Jeff Waugh is no developer, I seriously doubt that guy knows the difference between a for (;;) and a while (1) loop.
> ….theres a shitload more.
No doubt, but the amount of volunteers is still bigger than that.
> > GTK+ seem to be doing this for charity.
> ain’t that the goal of free software?
Charity as in “providing gratis libraries to corporations for building proprietary apps”? Then the answer is “no”.
The FSF says, right on their start page:
—
Free software is a matter of liberty not price. You should think of “free” as in “free speech”.
—
It’s not about providing gratis libraries to corporations for building proprietary apps. That *may* be a side effect in the case of the LGPL but it’s hardly the goal.
I can’t consider this to be “cheap” even the workstation versions ain’t cheap. So how does these prices compare to what they had to pay Trolltech for using QT ? 20 developer licenses would mean, selling 10 GSX Servers with unlimited processors.
Why would they throw money away just to please some trolls? grow up, If GTK can get the work done and save lots of money in the process then GTK will be the answer not only for VMWare but for many others too.
I think VMWare is a great application and looks great on my GNOME desktop.
Do you mean? I can’t GPL a GTK application? please some one tell to all the developers of GTK-GPL application the need to change the GPL to LGPL inmediatly.
Please reread what that Anonymous(you?) said and the answer. You can’t make changes to LGPL code and/or release it as anything but LGPL.
Nothing was said about applications, don’t change the subject..
And Qt is GPL and Free. It’s simple, you only have to accept it.
Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.
“GTK is a large project, and is controlled mainly by Red Hat, and a few developers from Sun and Novell.
That is what you want to believe, because it makes you happy
It’s fact, check out the GTK home page sometime and look at the contributors and maintainers.
you wan’t to believe Qt is more free than GTK
According to FSF the GPL are more Free than LGPL, or often called Lesser GPL. Not that it matters any. The question is why are you constantly denying verifiable facts, are you just clueless or a troll?
It’s fact, check out the GTK home page sometime and look at the contributors and maintainers.
So? they are contributors, you know the meaning of those words? or you are frustrated because they contribute to GNOME insted of the other DE?
According to FSF the GPL are more Free than LGPL, or often called Lesser GPL. Not that it matters any. The question is why are you constantly denying verifiable facts, are you just clueless or a troll?
I don’t care about the FSF, they are looking for their own interests like every one else.
And I could make the same question to you?
[i]Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.[i]
What does thet have to do with anything, as nothing of that applies to Qt. It don’t force you to GPL or cost 4000$. Try getting the facts first.
Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.
What does thet have to do with anything, as nothing of that applies to Qt. It don’t force you to GPL or cost 4000$. Try getting the facts first.
According to Qt’s licensing structure, you can either:
– Make your application GPL’d.
or
– Pay a $4000 fee to a license of your choice.
And if I don’t want to GPL my code and I don’t have enought money for a license you are screwed.
> And if I don’t want to GPL my code and I don’t have
> enought money for a license you are screwed.
Excuse me but your logic has some errors.
If YOU want to GPL YOUR code and if YOU don’t have enough money for a license. Why should someone ELSE be screwed ?
Because like my self there is another millions of developers.
That is why Qt/KDe will is destinated to fail always.
That is why Qt/KDe will is destinated to fail always.
yes in your dreams
KDE in 2004 resulted the best desktop for 60% of linux users.
What you actually meant to say is that 60% of the people who bothered answering a poll on a random website said they like KDE more. <put something here about lies, damn lies, and statistics>
That’s the sad truth, they don’t believe GNOME’S deployment stadisticts but they do believe in some random poll.
Strange that all these random polls result in KDE being always the winner. And hell we do have so many GNOME lovers (not). Even the KDE IRC channel does show 1/3 more users than the GNOME counterpart.
Exactly, and all this random polls were anounced in kde.org, so every KDE user when there to vote, GNOME by the other hand didn’t anounce anything , that’s the problem with this to much entusiastic KDE users, they think they help but they are only making KDE look bad, every KDE troll reminds me that I never should try KDE again, and they are succeding.
That’s the sad truth, they don’t believe GNOME’S deployment stadisticts
There are no deployment statistics.
but they do believe in some random poll.
It isn’t a random poll. The Desktop Consortium poll is on for months, and the methods they use are visible for all to see. Many polls have even been canned for irregular voting due to the way they monitor things, but no such irregularities have been found for the desktop section. KDE is the most popular open source desktop.
– Pay a $4000 fee to a license of your choice.
Uhm you should verify the values before posting crap.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.html
After reading that page and all the cool addons and the great support you get from professionals I consider the price listed there as reliable and quite cheap. It’s cheaper to contact Trolltech for help (which you receive within minutes) rather than spending 5 days digging in every mailinglist and forum or the GTK Application Developer mailinglist for getting a help (if anyone gives a flying f–k for your request). The hours lost for getting any suitable help with GTK is the win you would have if you had chosen to get a QT license. Of course this applies for commercial development of closed source applications. But which ever company decides to write close source applications deal with fairly larger money that you may imagine.
Looking at the QT partner page shows a long, very long list of companies that seem to be happily using QT for their commercial products. And hell, these apps are perfectly great.
I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop. We use many GNOME libraries. Workstation and the Player both fit well into the GNOME desktop. Please refrain from making such bold statements without research
Someone admits to it, that’s the first one:-) Perhaps a little bold, but not whitout research. But you hadn’t responded had i t not been bold, had you:-) Anyway I think my point still stands, Qt licenses to all at WMware would cost a lot less than what RH spends on GTK.
Who knows, but Red hat have customers that maybe would like to interact with their libraries, using Qt would inherited the GPL license to their customers forcing them to GPL their code or expend at least another 2500 dls, Red Hat is smart enought to go with GTK instead, GTK has save them a lot of money to them and the satisfaction of their customers.
IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg to the XFree86?
> IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg
> to the XFree86?
Actually the question is not “if QT was GPL’ed” the thing is QT IS GPL’ed as you can read here.
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4030623636.html
Even if you use the QPL you are still allowed to make changes of QT and redistribute it
http://www.trolltech.com/licenses/qpl.html
And why does anyone want to fork QT and who should maintain it ? I think the symbiosis with Trolltech and KDE is just perfect. The right persons working on the right things. Besides that QT is not the only project from Trolltech, they have created a lot of very powerful and great stuff.
IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg to the XFree86?
Qt is GPL. The reasons why no one bother to fork is that maintaining and developing it are a huge and costly job and that Troll Tech are doing an excellent job already, making a fork a ridiculous waste of resources.
Now imagine how much would VMWare cost if you add the license of Qt cost? maybe triple. GTK is the right way to go, Qt/KDE is only destinated to fail, is to damn expensive,
Actually that comment only shows how clueless you are, from the size of the company(VMware) I guess they spend more on coffee each year than the Qt licenses would have cost.
I guess they spend more on coffee each year than the Qt licenses would have cost.
If thinking in that way makes you happy, go ahead, but the really is quiet different.
> > I guess they spend more on coffee each year than the
> > Qt licenses would have cost.
>
> If thinking in that way makes you happy, go ahead, but > the really is quiet different.
They drink tea ?
Another discussion ruined by the osnews attention whores.
i always find it quite amusing that all those poeple who slate GNOME have no knowledge of it whatsoever, and always seem to demonstrate their lack of usage of it. they’re probably just passing the time waiting for KDE and/or konqueror to load.
i always find it quite amusing that all those people who slate KDE have no knowledge of it whatsoever, and always seem to demonstrate their lack of usage of it. they’re probably just passing the time waiting for GNOME and/or Nautilus to load.
thats the reason why there are more KDE trolls who like to trash gnome for any and every reason. because at the speed that kde and konqueror loads, they have tons more time to kill. i’m running 3.4.0-6 konqueror and it takes an age to load. nautilus loads instantaneously. if only i could post a video to prove it. even when i click on konqueror before nautilus, nautilus loads a good 3 seconds before konqueror.
> like to trash gnome for any and every reason.
If GNOME had a rock solid framework then there would be no reason not even the posibility to trash it.
considering how bloated, unstable, confusing, unintuitive, cluttered, and slow KDE is, it doesn’t exactly give KDE people any room to criticise any other DEs.
to quote from Linux User, Issue 55, pp61-62.
‘KDE has been going full tilt for years now., adding thing after thing, reworking things, rewriting this, adding new feature Y, etc. And, really, if yu compare GNOME and KDE…there’s not much difference to the user experience. It isn’t because GNOME is super-well-designed or anything, i’m just pointing that random aggregated development hasn’t gooen KDE anywhere where they first started out. I mean, they’ve gone somewhere but mostly going round and round in circles. Nickell believes that the smaller development in GNOME has reeped a similar level of userbility sheen: “On the other hand, a relatively smal amount of effort in the early GNOME 2.x timeframe (just works, preferences before settings, etc), done around a relatively loose but, at least extant, design idea actually moved GNOME somewhere. But if you look at the net motion of to programming work ratios, GNOME’s is way higher than KDEs”‘
and there we have it folks. KDE developers have been doing lots of the years but have gone nowhere fast. GNOME developers, with less effort, have gone further.
> to quote from Linux User, Issue 55, pp61-62.
> ‘Nickell believes …’
Nickell as in Seth Nickell, the GNOME developer? What a convincing quote to prove your point. NOT!
this post got modded down by people who don’t want the truth to be seen:
to quote from Linux User, Issue 55, pp61-62.
‘KDE has been going full tilt for years now., adding thing after thing, reworking things, rewriting this, adding new feature Y, etc. And, really, if you compare GNOME and KDE…there’s not much difference to the user experience. It isn’t because GNOME is super-well-designed or anything, i’m just pointing that random aggregated development hasn’t gooen KDE anywhere where they first started out. I mean, they’ve gone somewhere but mostly going round and round in circles. Nickell believes that the smaller development in GNOME has reeped a similar level of userbility sheen: “On the other hand, a relatively smal amount of effort in the early GNOME 2.x timeframe (just works, preferences before settings, etc), done around a relatively loose but, at least extant, design idea actually moved GNOME somewhere. But if you look at the net motion to programming work ratios, GNOME’s is way higher than KDEs”‘
and there we have it folks. KDE developers have been doing lots of the years but have gone nowhere fast. GNOME developers, with less effort, have gone further. and that is the reason why all the large organisations are faviouring gnome over KDE.
these legitimate posts got modded down so they are being posted again:
“considering how bloated, unstable, confusing, unintuitive, cluttered, and slow KDE is, it doesn’t exactly give KDE people any room to criticise any other DEs.”
“to quote from Linux User, Issue 55, pp61-62.
‘KDE has been going full tilt for years now., adding thing after thing, reworking things, rewriting this, adding new feature Y, etc. And, really, if you compare GNOME and KDE…there’s not much difference to the user experience. It isn’t because GNOME is super-well-designed or anything, i’m just pointing that random aggregated development hasn’t gotten KDE anywhere past where they first started out. I mean, they’ve gone somewhere but mostly going round and round in circles. Nickell believes that the smaller development in GNOME has reeped a similar level of userbility sheen: “On the other hand, a relatively small amount of effort in the early GNOME 2.x timeframe (just works, preferences before settings, etc), done around a relatively loose but, at least extant, design idea actually moved GNOME somewhere. But if you look at the net motion to programming work ratios, GNOME’s is way higher than KDEs”‘
and there we have it folks. KDE developers have been doing lots of the years but have gone nowhere fast. GNOME developers, with less effort, have gone further. and that is the reason why all the large organisations are faviouring gnome over KDE.”