Rumors circulating that Novell is going to kill off its popular Linux desktop lines are completely false. [However,] Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell’s interface moving forward will be on GNOME. “The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE.”
KDE is okay, but i happen to like GNOME.
I agree. I prefer Gnome, so part of me is definitely pleased. However, I’ll admit to feeling a bit worried for KDE fans, as SuSE was always one of the big KDE distros (I guess Mandriva being the other?) Redhat has long been focussed on Gnome, Ubuntu is Gnome.
Not that it’s hard to get KDE on these distros, but KDE is a good desktop, and I’d hate for support to wane.
“I prefer Gnome, so part of me is definitely pleased. However, I’ll admit to feeling a bit worried for KDE fans”
As a KDE fan let me say Thank you!
It’s nice to see someone who likes one desktop environment and yet still cares about what happens to the users of the other. 🙂
WHO CARES??????????
The statements in that article are made by a former Ximian Director of Marketing who really has nothing to do with Suse, the server people or are privy to what any of them are doing or the direction they’re going. I don’t give them much weight. Let’s see what Suse continues to do, because most Novell and Suse employees and customers use KDE.
Also notice that he was never actually quoted as saying they were moving to Gnome – there’s certainly no quote marks around the statement. It’s something the author has put in. This is a well worked PR tactic from the past. You imply something and let the author run away with it. If you’re questioned about it then you can say you were quoted totally out of context.
This happened a lot around the time of the Suse acquisition. There was one such article about Suse moving (‘tightly stitched’ in their words) all their distros to Ximian Desktop 2 before the ink was even dry on the deal. Remind me to ask the Ximian Desktop team how things are going.
Since they’ve laid off an awful lot of Gnome people this just doesn’t add up at all, and seems like the usual PR spin a manager puts on things when his department (or clique) has been taken to the cleaners. It’s also not possible. Novell and Suse’s products use YaST, and currently use KDE in SLES and OES and things will need to be seriously rearchitected if that were to change. They still need to be supported as well.
These people are continually full of the brown stuff, and consistently so. You lot really do have minds like goldfish. We’ll have to wait a few months to see what really happens.
I see I and others are right. People modding down comments they know to be true with no replies and no answers:
The statements in that article are made by a former Ximian Director of Marketing who really has nothing to do with Suse, the server people or are privy to what any of them are doing or the direction they’re going. I don’t give them much weight. Let’s see what Suse continues to do, because most Novell and Suse employees and customers use KDE.
Also notice that he was never actually quoted as saying they were moving to Gnome – there’s certainly no quote marks around the statement. It’s something the author has put in. This is a well worked PR tactic from the past. You imply something and let the author run away with it. If you’re questioned about it then you can say you were quoted totally out of context.
This happened a lot around the time of the Suse acquisition. There was one such article about Suse moving (‘tightly stitched’ in their words) all their distros to Ximian Desktop 2 before the ink was even dry on the deal. Remind me to ask the Ximian Desktop team how things are going.
Since they’ve laid off an awful lot of Gnome people this just doesn’t add up at all, and seems like the usual PR spin a manager puts on things when his department (or clique) has been taken to the cleaners. It’s also not possible. Novell and Suse’s products use YaST, and currently use KDE in SLES and OES and things will need to be seriously rearchitected if that were to change. They still need to be supported as well.
These people are continually full of the brown stuff, and consistently so. You lot really do have minds like goldfish. We’ll have to wait a few months to see what really happens.
When you actually have a reasonable response to this give me a reply rather than cowardly modding down comments. That’s not what the guidelines at OSNews state:
The statements in that article are made by a former Ximian Director of Marketing who really has nothing to do with Suse, the server people or are privy to what any of them are doing or the direction they’re going. I don’t give them much weight. Let’s see what Suse continues to do, because most Novell and Suse employees and customers use KDE.
Also notice that he was never actually quoted as saying they were moving to Gnome – there’s certainly no quote marks around the statement. It’s something the author has put in. This is a well worked PR tactic from the past. You imply something and let the author run away with it. If you’re questioned about it then you can say you were quoted totally out of context.
This happened a lot around the time of the Suse acquisition. There was one such article about Suse moving (‘tightly stitched’ in their words) all their distros to Ximian Desktop 2 before the ink was even dry on the deal. Remind me to ask the Ximian Desktop team how things are going.
Since they’ve laid off an awful lot of Gnome people this just doesn’t add up at all, and seems like the usual PR spin a manager puts on things when his department (or clique) has been taken to the cleaners. It’s also not possible. Novell and Suse’s products use YaST, and currently use KDE in SLES and OES and things will need to be seriously rearchitected if that were to change. They still need to be supported as well.
These people are continually full of the brown stuff, and consistently so. You lot really do have minds like goldfish. We’ll have to wait a few months to see what really happens.
Follow the OSNews guidelines and don’t just mod down what you don’t like. Give me a reasoned response to this please, otherwise you’re going to be seeing an awful lot of it and you’re going to run out of mod points – even with all the accounts you have! People can also take that there is something in it as well ;-):
The statements in that article are made by a former Ximian Director of Marketing who really has nothing to do with Suse, the server people or are privy to what any of them are doing or the direction they’re going. I don’t give them much weight. Let’s see what Suse continues to do, because most Novell and Suse employees and customers use KDE.
Also notice that he was never actually quoted as saying they were moving to Gnome – there’s certainly no quote marks around the statement. It’s something the author has put in. This is a well worked PR tactic from the past. You imply something and let the author run away with it. If you’re questioned about it then you can say you were quoted totally out of context.
This happened a lot around the time of the Suse acquisition. There was one such article about Suse moving (‘tightly stitched’ in their words) all their distros to Ximian Desktop 2 before the ink was even dry on the deal. Remind me to ask the Ximian Desktop team how things are going.
Since they’ve laid off an awful lot of Gnome people this just doesn’t add up at all, and seems like the usual PR spin a manager puts on things when his department (or clique) has been taken to the cleaners. It’s also not possible. Novell and Suse’s products use YaST, and currently use KDE in SLES and OES and things will need to be seriously rearchitected if that were to change. They still need to be supported as well.
These people are continually full of the brown stuff, and consistently so. You lot really do have minds like goldfish. We’ll have to wait a few months to see what really happens.
Novell realised just like Red Hat that there is a market where users are not apassionated with DEs and use the computer like what it is, a tool, they own nothing to you or other KDE apassionated users with to much free time.
Got that?.
Now you go and do something productive instean of thinking in fake conspirancies, take some air, enjoy life, and don’t get apassionated for a DE, ain’t nothing but a tool, no more, but people like you are making it simple the center of their lifes and that is not a good signal.
Edited 2005-11-06 01:22
> ain’t nothing but a tool
If its just a tool like you rightfully say, then why do you keep defending the hell out of it ? And good, if we all use tools then we should be using the best tools to get the stuff done we want. And the luck is with KDE here since it offers exactly these tools.
I make you an offer to evaluate into:
Planner (GNOME)
http://developer.imendio.com/wiki/Planner
TaskJuggler (KDE)
http://www.taskjuggler.org/
I’d really like to know from you, which of these two applications you would use. Please do us a favor and ignore the desktop or toolkit preference, simply value these two applications from their capabilities and look at them like you would be running a small company that needs to do project management in the IT business. I hope I don’t overstrain your skills in this area but I do believe you will realize what I am up to. Please also ignore the buttons, usability and whatever. What matters are the tasks to accomplish, the functions, the features compared to say MS.Project.
It’s Task Juggler, hands down, because I’ve needed a project management tool to use. Now that’s not an impassioned, fanboy response. Planner is an MS Project wannabe. TaskJuggler is just plain better.
– Exporting to different formats
– Resources and costs
– Analysis, profit and loss
– etc etc
What’s more, this stuff actually works!
Why? Well, one can certainly work out fairly quickly that the quality of the development framework available with Qt and KDE allows the developers to spend more time actually adding features that are actually useful to people. You know, software is a tool, no impassioned responses, people need to get work done etc. etc.?
At some stage the quality of the applications on top of a decent KDE application framework will get to a tipping point and really, really tell, and it isn’t going to matter one jot just how hard some people try to make something a ‘standard’. I just wonder what people are going to come up with then.
> It’s Task Juggler, hands down, because I’ve needed a project management tool to use.
Been using it daily here. It simply rocks and it costs us nothing. I somehow feel ashamed to use such a great piece of software without the posibility to give back something to the author. The quality of Task Juggler is impressive and it integrates nicely into KDE. People should throw an eye on the screenshots and examples section. MS Project costs around 750€ (Euros) here and this for the standard 2003 version. We saved so much and we owe that guy who wrote it at least a big thank you.
Novell realised just like Red Hat that there is a market where users are not apassionated with DEs and use the computer like what it is, a tool, they own nothing to you or other KDE apassionated users with to much free time.
Got that?.
No, because you can say exactly the same of people like you. I’m actually arguing something here and presenting something far more solid as evidence of what is going on. When you have something more than a fanboy response, feel free to come back.
Now you go and do something productive instean of thinking in fake conspirancies, take some air, enjoy life, and don’t get apassionated for a DE…..
I would advise you to do the same, because that’s not an actual reply to the issues raised. It’s an impassioned and desperate response to something you obviously don’t like. Got that?
No offence, really, get some air, it is just a DE, don’t make it the reason of your existence, wake up for Christ sake, don’t waste your life in stuff like this, Novell is free to do with Suse what ever he want’s he payed good money for it, and he own you nothing, it is their right and they are doing what they think is the best for their enterprice, let them be, thet are not doing anything wrong.
Mitarai, could you please comment on this reply of mine. It was directly targeted to you and you owe me an answer.
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12551&comment_id=56634
Sure, as a user I would use the one that feed my needs, if TaksJugger is better than planner the I’ll prolly useit, but I don’t use that kind of software, I’d use it for the same reason I would use GIMP and INKSCAPE over Krita and Karbon14, because both do the work better than the other.
Now if I have to answer that from the developer point of view, I can tell you that Qt is hands down a better toolkit but I don’t have money to pay for a license and I don’t wan’t to GPL my code, so I prolly go with pyGTK despite of its inperfections it simple feed my economic needs, you may argu that in the long run Qt can be more cheaper but Im on the risk of not being succefull and Qt won’t allow me to make my software as a shareware.
Now, why is windows software with of its flaws more succefull, they simple feed the needs of the people, it doesn’t have to be the best, it just have to get the work you need done, and GNOME does that, but I don’t get apassionated with it, if KDE 4 were going to be a piece of art I’ll prolly use it only as a user, as a developer never, Im don’t have any religious commitments with GPL, im just realistic.
No offence, really, get some air, it is just a DE, don’t make it the reason of your existence, wake up for Christ sake, don’t waste your life in stuff like this
I refer you back to my original comment, should you feel free to actually reply to the issues raised.
Novell is free to do with Suse what ever he want’s he payed good money for it, and he own you nothing
Well, people like you are getting a lot from a dodgy article about what Novell ‘is going to do with Suse’. I’ve raised some pretty valid concerns as to the accuracy of that information.
You’re not presenting evidence, you’re engaging in speculation. Evidence would be you obtaining a useful quote from someone at Novell responsible for making these decisions. Speculation is when you comment on what you think is really happening, and then maybe base this on your interpretation of history. Regardless I assure you the reason whoever is moderating you is doing so is that you cannot frame your argument in a manner that is civil.
If you keep spamming with this off-topic stuff then it will continue to be moderated, regardless of whether your original comment should have been. In your comment you insulted a nebulous group of people that must be the readership of this site, or the editorial staff. If you do either and it annoys someone with mod points, there you go. If you can’t articulate what you mean without being obnoxious, don’t be surprised when your comments are moderated down. It doesn’t matter if there’s a 1% kernel of truth in your post if you frame it in flamebait.
Instead of just stating that it is indeterminate as to whether this is true because the conclusion does not eminate from a direct quote, you opted to share with everyone your completely level-headed opinion of certain employees of Novell, and while yourself not having anything to with this, position yourself as a more authoritative source than someone that actually works there. For your grand finale you insulted either the editorial staff or the readers of this site. Let’s not forget that you brought up YaST and other support matters that are directly addressed in the article, as reason for why Novell wouldn’t transition its default desktop primarily to GNOME.
So please, keep whining and spamming your comment so that there is doubtlessly reason to moderate your posts down.
Haha, Sege you’re in a state of mental meltdown. This is hilarious. There are professionals out there that can help you with your obvious problem.
No sege, de Icaza is not going to put a gun to your head and make you run Gnome. Get a grip man, you’re a basketcase.
Haha, Sege you’re in a state of mental meltdown. This is hilarious. There are professionals out there that can help you with your obvious problem.
Yawn. Give you internet access in your padded cell do they?
No sege, de Icaza is not going to put a gun to your head and make you run Gnome. Get a grip man, you’re a basketcase.
Well no, because it’s not true and certainly not from these guys. That’s what the point was about. Should you have a problem with it I would suggest you reply to the actual points.
Well no, because it’s not true and certainly not from these guys. That’s what the point was about. Should you have a problem with it I would suggest you reply to the actual points.
Way to go loser. You’ve basically proved that your nothing more than a pathetic fanboy who can’t face reality. Grow up and get some professional help for your problems. It’s just a DE. Novell doesn’t take away KDE from Sege.
> Way to go loser.
Would you please stop calling people losers ? How pathetic is this GNOME community that you belong to ?
Get a picture of yourself !
http://www.angelfire.com/tn2/parrish/images/retards.jpg
Perhaps your last two comments were modded down because you don’t know how many times to hit the submit comment……I only need to read your comment once to make a decision about it. Re-posting it is simply annoying.
After spending two years as a Gnome-only user, last night I installed KUbuntu via Synaptics, and man, I was really impressed by what I saw.
Not only KDE is much more appealing in an aesthetics point of view, its components are better designed compared to Gnome.
Konqueror outperforms Nautilus in every single detail. I liked KPDF more than Evince. Even Konqueror was more usable than Firefox (but it wasn’t rendering the pages as good as Firefox). I could go on and enlarge [ 😉 ] this list…
So why is Novell turning its back on KDE? Because Novell is an American company, and Americans prefer Gnome over KDE (a European technology)…
So within the timespan of one evening you have become an expert not only on the technical and aesthetic supremacy of KDE, but also how to introduce nationalism as the motivation for Novell’s strategies.
No, they did that for one simple reason. The same reason that KDE developers realised with planning 4.0
Simplicity. If you want to give desktop to the masses you can’t give them tweak’n’trick-whole’lot’a’bunch’o’mess like kcontrol. Every preference in KDE (in any KDE software) is designed to tweak even the last detail on desktop (that probably no one even looks at). Which is all and well (probably even better) if you’re either unemployed geek who likes flashy things and you’d do anything to have your desktop just a little bit flashier than your friends.
The only single reason why KDE is heading the wrong way (or is loosing) are old KDE users. Buggin’ for new features and tweaks and not considering that JoeSixpack might be just confused with them.
Here is a question for you. Why is design for 4.0 completely different and focusing for simplicity without so many features (or better said, having more features, better designed and less options. As far as I read the 4.0 papers, KDE finally turned into the right direction. Even I’m probably gonna take a good look at KDE when 4 comes out)
Take me for example. I was using KDE back from 1.2 times (or even sooner).
I’m no JoeSixpack. But I still preffer clean and simple design. I left KDE completely as soon as G2 came out. And “simple, non confusing and well designed” were the only reasons. I don’t need zillion buttons, options and preferences. And yes I know I can disable them. But why waste my time when there already is desktop which I consider as better in its basic and preinstalled state.
Oh Dear. We have y.a.g.t (yet another Gnome troll). How the f–k did you get modded up to 5?
Quote: “If you want to give desktop to the masses you can’t give them tweak’n’trick-whole’lot’a’bunch’o’mess like kcontrol. ”
huh? kcontrol is no where near as messy as you’re trying to indicate. Stop spreading fud. Oh hang on, osnews.com is a pro Gnome site. Fud is allowed here 😉
Quote: “Every preference in KDE (in any KDE software) is designed to tweak even the last detail on desktop (that probably no one even looks at).”
That’s right. Is someone holding a gun to your head saying that you MUST change and play with all of the settings? No. The default settings are relatively sane, just as sane as what Gnome offers.
Quote: “The only single reason why KDE is heading the wrong way (or is loosing) are old KDE users. Buggin’ for new features and tweaks and not considering that JoeSixpack might be just confused with them.”
I’d personally disagree here. To me, as a former Gnome user, it lost the plot around v1.4, and KDE picked up the plot around v2.0. Just my honest 2.2c (inc GST) worth.
Quote: “But I still preffer clean and simple design. I left KDE completely as soon as G2 came out. And “simple, non confusing and well designed” were the only reasons. I don’t need zillion buttons, options and preferences.”
And some people do like that. Neither Gnome or KDE are totally right. Desktop environments are a preference. I see many things wrong with Gnome, that I personally dislike. That is part of the reason why I use, and prefer KDE. Someone else might be the exact opposite – they might prefer fluxbox to either Gnome or KDE for a variety of reasons.
What you are basically saying is that “I like Gnome, and everyone else better like Gnome as well, or else! Because I dislike KDE, it must be shit, and everyone else must not use it because they should agree with why I dislike KDE!”.
Dave
What you call simplicity, I call it dumb-down. If you want to dumb-down linux DE just to attract more JoeSixpacks, then linux DE would just be heading in the wrong direction. Part of the appeal of linux DE, KDE in particular, is the ability to change/customize settings to suit my need and how I use my computer. For those who do not want to change/customize settings, they can just leave everything default. It is simple as that. There is no need to dumb-down KDE. Leave Gnome and Windows GUI to JoeSixpack and those who like dumb-down DE. I seriously doubt that taking away choices form users would make them more productive. If people spend too much time worry about having too many buttons, then they probably not very productive to begin with.
“Even Konqueror was more usable than Firefox”
Can I have some of what you’re smoking please, as it’s obviously pretty good stuff!
If you want a good example of Gnome, then don’t look at Ubuntu or Solaris, look at Fedora. RedHat has always had the best-looking Gnome, and best support for it.
KDE is way to childish for my liking, jees it even makes WindowsXP look mature! Keramik practically is XP and Crystal is MacOSX.
I’ve been wondering for a long time why SUSE hasn’t swapped to Gnome since it and Ximian were bought by Novell. This is excellent news if it’s true.
> KDE is way to childish for my liking, jees it even
> makes WindowsXP look mature! Keramik practically is XP
> and Crystal is MacOSX.
KDE doesn’t use Keramik, jeez, when did you last use KDE ?
> KDE is way to childish for my liking, jees it even
> makes WindowsXP look mature! Keramik practically is XP
> and Crystal is MacOSX.
KDE doesn’t use Keramik, jeez, when did you last use KDE ?
This is really a bad attempt to circumvent the issue. KDE has been shipping the heavily overloaded Keramik for at least two whole releases – as default! I am wondering what kind of internal system comes to the conclusion that Keramik should actually be a default theme.
Er, no. The current default theme is Plastik, and it looks a hell of a lot better (and more professional) than the old Keramik.
I’m an America, I prefer KDE. KDE is not a European technology, and Gnome is not an American technology. What a silly idea, simply because KDE’s geographical center of development is in Europe does not discount the contributions of people outside of Europe.
What a horribly rude thing to say…
Yeah, both DEs and in fact, almost all of the development of GNU/Linux is geographically independant. It does not matter where the HQ for a project is, the programmers can submit their code from anywhere
Seems like just another novell-type blunder to me, like buying wordperfect and then letting it lie to rot.
Face it, SuSE’s been KDE-orientated for quite some time now. So novell bought loads of KDE experience, and now decided to throw that out for a desktop which alwas has been sort of neglected by suse?
Everyone thinking “makes perfect sense to me” raise your hands please
(counting…) nobody? ah i see, no managers here.
Face it, SuSE’s been KDE-orientated for quite some time now. So novell bought loads of KDE experience, and now decided to throw that out for a desktop which alwas has been sort of neglected by suse?
<p>You’d prefer that after they’ve bought Ximian, and all that Gnome experience, that they just throw that away in favor of a desktop that Ximian completely hasn’t worked on?
You’d prefer that after they’ve bought Ximian, and all that Gnome experience, that they just throw that away in favor of a desktop that Ximian completely hasn’t worked on?
Well, Ximian was bankrupt and SUSE profitable. So which one of those two would you prefer?
“So novell bought loads of KDE experience, and now decided to throw that out for a desktop which alwas has been sort of neglected by suse?”
Actually Novell bought SUSE for their server experience not for their desktop experience. Even if a lot of people seem to ignore it: a distro is way more than a desktop.
Seems like just another novell-type blunder to me, like buying wordperfect and then letting it lie to rot.
Face it, SuSE’s been KDE-orientated for quite some time now. So novell bought loads of KDE experience, and now decided to throw that out for a desktop which alwas has been sort of neglected by suse?
Everyone thinking “makes perfect sense to me” raise your hands please
(counting…) nobody? ah i see, no managers here.
Novell also aquired Ximian, a Gnome company. So Novell bought Gnome experience too. Your point makes no sense.
I like SuSe and KDE, but I cant help but be pleased that the linux “industry” appears to be choosing one standard “GNOME” and pretty much sticking with it. People will still have a choice, but there will finally be a “default” that almost everyone uses..
People will still have a choice, but there will finally be a “default” that almost everyone uses..
Since when does almost everyone use GNOME?
Novell is slowly but surely trying to phase out KDE. This is a real shame.
> Novell is slowly but surely trying to phase out KDE.
> This is a real shame.
I think what Novell needs is to get rid of those hatepreachers and hatemongers inside their company. The first to throw out are their two open sores VP’s.
well, at least novell can now start to move forward given their latest decision.
That SuSE will be around. As many other do, I happen to enjoy SuSE quite a bit.
As far as GNOME being the new standard, it appears that many are using GNOME as a standard.
As for which is actually better, KDE or GNOME, it really doesn’t matter. With GNOME being used as a standard, this means that it will get better & improve faster.
And that’s VERY good news.
> As for which is actually better, KDE or GNOME, it
> really doesn’t matter. With GNOME being used as a
> standard, this means that it will get better & improve
> faster.
This is not necessarily true. GNOME could have been improved and made better (much faster) in the past years. I happen know a lot of people (including me) who spent days and nights by contributing to GNOME, willing to sent in patches and other stuff, like writing feedback with constructive stuff etc.
The problem is that GNOME is a quite closed group of people and the real life problems like dealing with jealous people, killing off enemy projects etc. is coming with it. Even if GNOME standardize, it still doesn’t mean that it improves better or gets better fixed. I think that GNOME has a lot of internal problems to solve first. GNOME don’t want any exernal contributors, only those who fix the leftovers that no one wants to work on.
What you regarding the internal problems within the GNOME Project could very well be true. I believe we’ve all seen out of control egos and the ‘elitest’ attitudes that can lead to a lot of strife & internal problems.
My reason for feeling the way I do is that with GNOME being used more & more it’s becoming somewhat of the ‘defacto’ standardized Window Manager/GUI. This is a good thing.
Standardization & adoption of GNOME would (hopefully) usher in more money, support and talent to help advance it.
With the additional exposure and useage of GNOME, the developers and project folks would be in the spotlight more than they are now. Additional publicity for any project is that sometimes the doors open up and some of the personality issues will calm down (by moving on or getting it together).
Your explaination is faulty and I tell you why.
> What you regarding the internal problems within the
> GNOME Project could very well be true. I believe
> we’ve all seen out of control egos and the ‘elitest’
> attitudes that can lead to a lot of strife & internal
> problems.
So far this is valid.
> Standardization & adoption of GNOME would (hopefully)
> usher in more money, support and talent to help
> advance it.
And this is not valid anymore because you contradict yourself here. With your first sentences you might agree that these problems and egos exist. But your other sentence you speak about adoption of GNOME and more money, support and talents helping to improve it.
But this is what people tried for years now. How can you improve something if you permanently nail your head against egos and eliteists ? Guess sherlok, many people have tried to help improving GNOME but failed miserabely because of such bad attitude. As if the idea of ‘helping’ is new.
Way back when I first used Linux I tried Mandrake and it was installed with KDE as the default desktop. After trying Gnome 2.12 on Fedora 4 I fell in love with it. Man has Gnome improved a lot. I recently removed KDE as a startup option since I found I didn’t need it anymore. I find the latest version of Nautilus is cleaner than KDE’s Konqueror. I use Firefox for browsing so I dropped Konqueror. I think other people and Novell have caught onto these improvements and there is always that KDE licensing problem with applications. I don’t think the majority of KDE users are aware that developers making commercial applications have to pay a royalty if they use the QT toolkit. For me this is a good enough reason to avoid KDE.
“I don’t think the majority of KDE users are aware that developers making commercial applications have to pay a royalty if they use the QT toolkit. For me this is a good enough reason to avoid KDE.”
Correct me if i’m wrong, but I believe there is an option to avoid royaltoes IF and only IF you release your program under the GPL. In that cae I fully agree and understand that commercial distros move away from KDE.
/Lennart Fridén
Yes, you are right. Anything else but GPL app requires you to buy commercial development license.
And prices are insane. Insane high, I mean.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.html
Not everyone writes GPL software, there is much more shareware than freeware, and how can one afford to even think about proffit if he has to pay 2630EUR for one workstation development desktop license? Well, in case of buying some comercial product you get cheaper license, but that doesn’t mean that you can use newer Qt if any.
For example Kylix is still at Qt 2.0 (ok, there is a FreeCLX project that will support newer, but… read forward to know why but exists here) and owners of older licenses will be able to write commercial apps with 2.0 only where it doesn’t matter if 4.0 is out. But on the other hand these same people will be able to write GPL software with 4? Wow, that is a real deal for anybody who bought Kylix, basically he can stick FreeCLX somewhere where the sun doesn’t shine if he would like to write closed applications.
Life sucks, doesn’t it?
There are no royalties involved if you code with Qt. To quote the KDE myths page:
There are no per-product or per-sale fees associated with Qt development on X11, Windows or MacOS X, open or closed source.
You do have to pay a per-developer license fee, however horrible it is to have to pay for service and support. It must really suck having to spend money to make money…
I couldn’t care less which OS or desktop to use as long as it does what i want when i want and i can tune it accordingly>
That’s exactly what you can’t do with Gnome (tune it accordingly)
“That’s exactly what you can’t do with Gnome (tune it accordingly)”
you can fine tune GNOME and you can fine tune KDE, but have you ever heard of the words – overkill, clutter, confusion, and unintuitive. they are not things that users want.
“you can fine tune GNOME and you can fine tune KDE, but have you ever heard of the words – overkill, clutter, confusion, and unintuitive. they are not things that users want.”
Oh come on, I’ve been using KDE for years and it’s not overkill; when I first started using it I had absolutely no trouble learning where things were. Some people don’t like having that many options, but that doesn’t mean there are too many, it’s a simple matter of preference.
He has been saying this would happen for the last 2 years and no one belived him. Everyone owes him an apology for calling him a troll. Gnome *is* the standard Linux desktop as far as commerical entities are concerned.
No one owes Lumbergh an apology for calling him a troll. That’s about as absurd as suggesting the same of Dvorak, because Apple eventually switched to Intel CPUs. It ignores the nature and quantity of poor content in the interim.
I’m right here. No one owes me an apology. For the record, I use KDE on linux these days with the gtk-qt engine and consider it a superior desktop and far superior framework for programmers (that’s just my opinion). But I think it was inevitable that the Qt license would come back to haunt KDE eventually. It’s a shame that someone didn’t buy out Trolltech years and years ago and liberalize the license.
But this really doesn’t change anything as far the linux desktop market is concerned. Although the previous story was pretty much BS, I don’t think there’s much doubt that Novell will tighten the belt and focus on where they can make money, and that’s the server market. Linux continues to be pretty much a server-side phenomena and I don’t think the major players focusing on Gnome now is going to change that.
I agree on the Qt license, it costs more than the computer it’s used on and someone should change that.
What makes me sad is that I can’t write apps that truly fit into KDE without using Qt (which I do not any more). I would really like to have an alternative toolkit which is still portable across Windows, Linux & Mac OS and yet themes perfectly with KDE and matches the button order. Even if the new toolkit weren’t free or libre that wouldn’t matter to me any more, what would matter is good documentation, good design and a reasonable price.
Kde seems to have many nice features that gnome does not have.
Things like kate and the tabular console window, etc.
I don’t like the ‘bare bones’ feeling of gnome.
It seems like this decision is based more on politics than anything technical.
I really wish one desktop environment would ‘win’ this war. Having 2 different desktops is stupid, unless you are a geek.
If linux ever wants to go mainstream, we need more uniformity…so we should let KDE kill gnome.
Gnome-terminal has had tab functionality for a long time.
/*I really wish one desktop environment would ‘win’ this war.*/
Your wish is coming true, everyone is standarizing on GNOME.
Also I like the version of Gedit that comes with Gnome 2.12 now. I used to use Kate but now use Gedit. It has tabs too.
I often encounter the idea that FOSS “fails” because of effort duplication (“Why don’t “they” just do one good Desktop/Distribution/etc ?” type of saying), especially from newcomers and outsiders. I think this is totally missing the point.
Some people tends to consider the FOSS community as some monolithic company who would be developping two (or more) competing softwares for the same field, thus failing to complete any of them. But in the FOSS community, you have little chance to see someone working on a project he doesn’t believe in. FOSS developpers do write software for fun and this allows them to make decisions based on personnal point of views (and hopefully technical ones) rather then commercial considerations. Freedom it is. So there is no point in creating lots of code if it’s not Good or if the engeneering is poor. There’s of course much more to say as to why FOSS is a pleasant place to be as a developper but about the question of effort duplication i really can’t settle anywhere else than “it’s all for the best”.
What really mad me mad was the two panels in Suse 10.
There’s one at the top for like a star menu and sys tray and one at the bottom for just programs so I have to run my mouse up and down, up and down, and side to side.
That wasn’t the worst. The worst was autohiding but still sticking out (still visible )by around 6 pixels top and bottom for each panel.
Could I right click on the panels and configure them?
Not those setting. I googled and googled. I was thinking about using the monitor controls until I found out I had to use GNOME Configuration editor and search for a config option like I’m in window.
Suse, you need to do a little more work on the HIG and GUI.
I modded you back up – obviously the gnomites are out again, modding down anything that dares trash their beloved Gnome desktop environment. I agree with you that Gnome’s interpretation of UI is pretty odd. Many things just do not make an ounce of sense in Gnome. I’m not saying KDE’s perfect (or any other desktop environment for that matter), but in many areas, KDE just does things smarter. That’s my opinion, and I’m entitled to it.
Dave
It’s simply not a good idea to have tools built on two different desktops. So you’ll still have KDE but gnome will be the platform that their apps run on. Not a surprise since they’ve been doing iFolder and stuff on gnome (plus just having mono in general).
I still cannot believe the nerve of the guy who originally wrote the article. How can someone be so dishonest.
/*I still cannot believe the nerve of the guy who originally wrote the article. How can someone be so dishonest.*/
According to the article, he is a KDE developer. Looks like he was overcome with emotion. Maybe thats why he lied.
“How can someone be so dishonest”
Actually to be fair, you have to admit, he did f**k up, but he did NOT tell straight lies, he just used terms like “is said to be” all over the place. Still VERY unprofessional from a kde dev to do that (writing an article based on such an uncertain / wrong info-base). I really would hope, that at least the devs stay out of all this stupid desktop-flamewars. There are already enough trolls around for that…
If it was not invented here, kill it.
No mather if it is better, just kill it.
It’s always the U.S.’s fault, for everything, right — including which Linux desktop is being used? lawl.
That is just not true, I by far prefer KDE over gnome, it just works better. I don’t really care where KDE comes from.
Really, I’ve yet to meet a geek that gave a damn over where KDE and GNOME are developed.
Really developers focusing on one desktop is better for end users as it offers yet another standard for the Linux community to follow. Though I admit I was hoping Novell would focus on KDE for a few reasons. Such as Gnome looking more like OSX with it’s toolbar at the top of the screen unlike KDE where it’s familiar to Windows users (the main competition) being at the bottom of the screen. Also Gnome’s GUI with default icons seems more of an outdated look than what consumers expect to see in a commercial distribution. I must say I’m a little confused about the comment that they’ll still offer KDE with OpenSUSE. Is this a “just in case” Novell move to see how the KDE desktop progresses over time with projects such as http://plasma.kde.org/ ? It would of been nice for Novell to post an online poll for their customers to see what desktop they would prefer. This at least would not cause customers to be upset and consider other companies. The other option is for the information to be sent back to Novell which desktop GUI the end user selects during installation of SUSE Linux. Over at LinuxForum.com it’s apparent with their KDE vs Gnome poll which consumers prefer http://www.linuxforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115995
Edited 2005-11-05 19:19
It would of been nice for Novell to post an online poll for their customers to see what desktop they would prefer.
They alread did, I remember reading an interview with a Suse spokeperson and he said that the vast majority of their customers wanted KDE.
Novell’s move seems really dumb to me. They have thousands of paying customers. Imagine when they’ll come in and say “we’re sorry, but you have to train again all your employees because from now on we only support Gnome”. What do you think these companies do? Switch to Gnome to please Novell or look for another supplier?
This is so dumb that I can’t think it’s true. Gnomedesktop.org posted an announcemnt like this, but after a while it got removed. Maybe they know something we don’t (yet)?
i have reading this interview too… surely this customer will switch on another linux kde distribution… surely mandriva…
i will do the switch
Really developers focusing on one desktop is better for end users as it offers yet another standard for the Linux community to follow. Though I admit I was hoping Novell would focus on KDE for a few reasons. Such as Gnome looking more like OSX with it’s toolbar at the top of the screen unlike KDE where it’s familiar to Windows users (the main competition) being at the bottom of the screen. Also Gnome’s GUI with default icons seems more of an outdated look than what consumers expect to see in a commercial distribution. I must say I’m a little confused about the comment that they’ll still offer KDE with OpenSUSE. Is this a “just in case” Novell move to see how the KDE desktop progresses over time with projects such as http://plasma.kde.org/ ? It would of been nice for Novell to post an online poll for their customers to see what desktop they would prefer. This at least would not cause customers to be upset and consider other companies. The other option is for the information to be sent back to Novell which desktop GUI the end user selects during installation of SUSE Linux. Over at LinuxForum.com it’s apparent with their KDE vs Gnome poll which consumers prefer
Yes, because all businesses (which is what NLD and SLES is aimed at) take polls on LinuxForum.com. I’m sure the CEO of these companies says “Holy shit, another poll on a geek site. Get one of our IT staffers on this right now!!! Tell him to choose KDE”. These polls are for home users, which is exactly what OpenSUSE is aimed at, and why it still includes KDE.
This is not only a bad day for KDE, it is also a bad day for GNOME. Now the two major Linux companies (RedHat and Novell) have abandoned their home user desktop distributions. Home users can still use Fedora or OpenSUSE, but their is no packaged version, you won’t get a manual and there is no official support. Also Sun seems to abandon JDS and there are rumors that Ubuntu has financial problems (but I really don’t know if this is actually true).
More and more Linux companies are abandoning the home user versions of their distributions (and this affects both GNOME and KDE) and are focusing on the corporate desktop and servers. This is bad because obviously these companies will also not put resources into projects that are only useful for home users. And most corporate desktop and server software is not really that useful for the average home user.
KDE is affected even less then GNOME by that because it was always more community orientated, while GNOME relies much more on corporate support.
In my opinion the problem is, that the major Linux companies cannot make (enough) money with home user desktops/distributions. Home user desktops/distributions typically come with thousands of software packages on several CDs and all these software packages have to be maintained. On the other hand, a stripped down corporate desktop needs only few packages and can probably be sold for more money.
So this is basically about home users vs. corporate users and not about GNOME vs. KDE. For home users it really doesn’t matter much if Novell uses GNOME or KDE on their corporate desktops and servers because these distributions are not aimed at home users and are inappropriate for home users.
and there are rumors that Ubuntu has financial problems (but I really don’t know if this is actually true).
Ubuntu has more money now than they ever did. They just received $10 million from Shuttleworth.
Ubuntu has more money now than they ever did. They just received $10 million from Shuttleworth.
Aye, it’s hard to have money troubles when the guy backing the company makes more on investments then the entire linux service industry.
> “Now the two major Linux companies (RedHat and Novell) have abandoned their home user desktop distributions. Home users can still use Fedora or OpenSUSE, but their is no packaged version, you won’t get a manual and there is no official support.”
That is NOT true if the newest eweek article about that is correct:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp
Mr. Mancusi-Ungaro says:
“The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE,”.
And the last statement I heard about OpenSUSE is that they continue to offer boxed versions.
If so, I can continue using SuSE, which is currently my favorite distribution.
I understand Gnome is a viable choice for many users, but I am not a Linux user so much as I am a KDE user. SuSE just happens to let me use KDE right of the box with almost all my hardware working (which no other distribution can say). It will be a sad day if KDE is dropped as the default in OpenSuSE.
“Is OpenSuSE still going to default to KDE?”
It never did (suse did, but not openSUSE), openSUSE provides a mandatory choice between kde and gnome atm, so there is no “default”. About the future: openSUSE is a community distro now, so I don’t think Novell will force a change there.
If so, I can continue using SuSE, which is currently my favorite distribution.
You require KDE to be the default or you can’t use it?
I understand Gnome is a viable choice for many users, but I am not a Linux user so much as I am a KDE user. SuSE just happens to let me use KDE right of the box with almost all my hardware working (which no other distribution can say). It will be a sad day if KDE is dropped as the default in OpenSuSE.
You are not “so much” a GNOME, KDE or Linux user as you are a Suse user. The desk top has very, very little to do with getting your hardware working; You can thank Suse for that.
“If so, I can continue using SuSE, which is currently my favorite distribution.
You require KDE to be the default or you can’t use it? “
I think much along the same lines as the person you were replying to. I personally don’t need KDE to be the default desktop environment, but I do need it to work well and be properly maintained otherwise I go to another distribution. When there isn’t a distribution out there that can put a good KDE desktop together any more then I have no more use for Linux any more as KDE and it’s applications are THE reason I like Linux.
It’s sad but true that the default desktop for a distribution is also the only one to be well maintained, the other more or less gets neglected to the point where it becomes unpleasant to use. Gnome users should know this to be true as it used to be Gnome that was widely neglected, now it’s becomming KDE as Linux distributors turn more towards commercial customers. It’s not a balanced playground, Gnome is now the default on far more significant distributions than KDE despite KDE having more users, this trend deeply concerns me.
A good choice IMO.
Agreed
i dont’ understand all the panic.
OpenSuSE will still come with KDE. And, like on every other distribution, everybody can install the desktop he wants!
I think it was always clear that Novell goes more the Gtk+ way. Just look at their work: Mono with Gtk#, ifolder,…
And remember SuSE was about 10 years a KDE distribution so their is no reason to cry for the KDE people or had the GNOME people cry for 10 years? GNOME has to catch up 10 years of KDE/SuSE until they are tie. At the earliest than, the KDE gusys can cry.
By the way Novell have a long way if they want to make GNOME/SuSE as good as KDE/SuSE they first have to get things like yast on a Gtk+ basis. Until they have achieved this, SuSE is still a lot KDE.
So don’t panic!
Actually, it is part of a worry. Why? Let’s look here. Suse, Novell Linux, Sun JDS, Redhat, Fedora Core, Ubuntu are all Gnome based. How much of the market do they take up? I’d say that between them, they take up a good 70% of the market. Players like Slackware are very small in the market. Sure, we have Mandriva, which does set a KDE default. Xandros and Linspire do as well, but they have very small percentages. With Suse being KDE based before, it made the numbers relatively even (in terms of distributions shipping with one or the other as a default desktop environment). I suggest that this is part of a push by the freedesktop consortium (which has always favoured Gnome I might add from day one for a variety of political reasons).
Dave
“I don’t think the majority of KDE users are aware that developers making commercial applications have to pay a royalty if they use the QT toolkit. For me this is a good enough reason to avoid KDE.”
Looks like most OSS users are no longer aware you have to pay for proprietary software… I considder it totally fair the company’s that force you to pay for your software are forced to pay for their development tools. especially if their payments are used for improving OSS! (Trolltech uses lots of this money to pay KDE and X developers)
You have it backwards Superstoned, WE are the ones that are begging for commerical support. If we want commerical software like that which is avaliable on Windows and Mac OSX, we have to be as developer friendly as possible. Forcing a company to pay $3300 per developer just to develop on Linux* would be suicide. Even Microsoft’s development tools are cheaper!
*Yes, $3300 for just Linux, then $4950 for two platforms and $6600 for 3 platforms and all of that is for ONE developer. Could you imagine how much money a small company would have to pay to develop on Linux? WOW!
>WE are the ones that are begging for commerical support.
Does WE are really doing this? Does WE are begging for commercial support? Does we are begging for proprietary Software? Does we are begging for both? Or maybe for nothing of both?
Who are you that you think you can talk for US?
>Yes, $3300 for just Linux, then $4950 for two platforms and $6600 for 3 platforms and all
No, $3300 is for all 3 platforms. $3300 for the best cross-platform toolkit you can get. $3300 for the best C++ Framework. $3300 for maintainig ONE code for ALL platforms. $3300 for a great tool if a single project has a value of more 100000 dollars, that’s the best bargain everyone can get!
“We” refers to everyone who is not a zealot and wants Linux to be real solution for everyone, home users included. Home users need commerical support.
/*No, $3300 is for all 3 platforms. $3300 for the best cross-platform toolkit you can get. $3300 for the best C++ Framework. $3300 for maintainig ONE code for ALL platforms. $3300 for a great tool if a single project has a value of more 100000 dollars, that’s the best bargain everyone can get!*/
Fine don’t take my word for it, take a look at Trolltech’s pricing guide then.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.html
$3300 is for ONE platform and ONE developer
> $3300 is for ONE platform and ONE developer
I don’t understand how this is related to KDE ? Does it make KDE technically any worse ? Does it prevent you from using KDE and get your job done ? In what particular ways does it affect or cause damage to your money bag ? The majority of people are simply users who want to use KDE. KDE as desktop is fully GPL (the one and only GPL).
I think the people shouldn’t be fooled by the license bullshit that people keep spreading for years, people should finally open their eyes and use the desktop that simply works.
You can defend GNOME as much you want (I did so too for years) but I realized that it doesn’t help. It doesn’t help you, and it doesn’t help GNOME in general. You only accept the misery GNOME as it is now as being a good desktop. With your attitude you stop GNOME from getting serious progress because everyone believes things are right as they are. I think all the ‘yay’ sayers for GNOME prevents GNOME from getting fixed – correctly.
The KDE IRC channel has over 240 people at the moment, which only explains the big acceptance. KDE wins every desktop poll every years since it exists. KDE offers a lot of powerful productive tools. License besides – KDE works.
Ali we all know that you are troll. I’m not going to waste time with you.
QT licencing doesn’t have anything with KDE per se but it limits its attractiveness as a third party developers platform and that’s wkat SUSE cares about. Also the fact that Redhat pushes GNOME and if not defacto platform for linux ISV’s has something to it. I will be much easier to thighly integrate their Redhat products into Suse desktop and thus lower entry barrier to supporting Suse as well.
Sure, you could run Gnome apps on KDE but there are still performance and integration issues in this approach.
Nevertheless that’s sad as KDE really seems much cleaner and powerfull framework by now and if plasma guys deliver it could also take the lead on usability front.
> KDE per se but it limits its attractiveness as a third
> party developers platform and that’s wkat SUSE cares
> about.
That’s not entirely correct. SUSE was a KDE centric distro since day one of KDE’s existence and they still keep pumping money into the project. They hired a few KDE developers and they still work on it (as internal circles say even after these few articles). If SUSE had cared about the things you mentioned then they would have left the KDE desktop environment years ago. But KDE is one of they key selling thing that made SUSE so popular or how can you explain SUSE have such a big and great name even across the sea in USA ? It’s not just their server support but also their great distribution that made many users happy. Even in our school they sell SUSE mainly because of KDE. KDE is one of the key elements they teach here in every Linux courses (which costs a shitload of money by the way).
*Yes, $3300 for just Linux, then $4950 for two platforms and $6600 for 3 platforms and all of that is for ONE developer. Could you imagine how much money a small company would have to pay to develop on Linux? WOW!
Let’s see. (I’d probably better check your figures, but I’ll just take them at face value for now).
Assuming the company is in Germany, OK? Assuming it has 6 developers. Assuming 3 of them work with Qt, and they develop multi-platform. Ready?
1st year:
————
+ 3x annual wage, plus health, tax, insurance:
(per developer 50.000.- )…….. 210.000.- EUR
+ 3x license (a 6.600.- )…………. 19.800.- EUR
2nd year:
————
+ 3x annual wage, plus health, tax, insurance:
(per developer 70.000.- )…….. 210.000.- EUR
+ 3x license (a 0.000.- )………….. 0.000.- EUR
It’s less than a 10% increase of costs in the 1st year, just compared with wages, and 0% increase in all the following years.
Trolltech licenses includes world-class support. They are known to make developers so much more productive and writing code that contains far fewer bugs. It allows them to sell any amount of derived software, on any platform.
I call this a bargain.
Since you’re calculating for us, perhaps you can do the same for programmers in India, Russia, or Poland. While we’re at it, how many third-party commercial widget and theme providers are there for Qt? Am I going to be able to license third-party controls not available as part of the Qt framework, or am I going to have to mine them from KDE? How much should I expect to license these components? If there isn’t such an industry around the toolkit, could I save more money by hiring fewer programmers proficient with something else than hiring more to build all of my own widgets not included in the toolkit?
None of this is as simplistic as you want it to be. TT has produced an excellent portable C++ toolkit, and I think it’s obviously the best of its kind, but it’s not exactly blazing through the proprietary software development world.
…because of GTK and it’s corporate-friendly license. Cool, the LGPL allows everyone and their dog to develop commercial Gnome/ GTK apps for free. But where are those apps? I know of a few commercial GTK applications:
– Acrobat Reader, the closed source GTK reference app.
– Helixplayer, free like Acroread, and developed open source.
– Pagestream, a rare DTP app.
– VMWare, an application where the toolkit doesn’t matter at all – they could have used TCL/TK, nobody would have noticed the difference, as the GUI is only used to configure the application.
– Xara for Linux, not released yet, also not a GTK app (uses WxWidgets).
That’s not much. commercial desktop Qt/ KDE apps anyone?
– Viva Designer, a DTP application.
– Skype, obviously.
– Opera, obviously.
– Hancom Office, chinese office suite.
– Serna, XML editor.
– FormularManager, tax application.
– QCAD Pro, 2D CAD.
– ARCAD, CAA.
– …
The list goes on, and you see, there are many more Qt/ KDE closed source apps than GTK apps. Also notice, most closed source Linux apps are from outside the USA, from countries where desktop Linux is more widespread and KDE is the default desktop.
>>commercial GTK applications:
– Acrobat Reader
– Helixplayer
– Pagestream
– VMWare
– Xara for Linux<<
– Nerolinux
– icluster
– transcribe
– mathwords
– netfront
-…..
The list goes on, and you see, you haven’t searched hard enough….
… but then this might have killed your false argumentation kde fanboy.
Oh my, great apps you listed. Let’s dissect that list, shall we?
– NeroLinux: Uses GTK1! Not even GTK2. And the reason is that they used an already existing interface instead of creating their own.
– icluster: Quite unknown shareware app. Not exactly common desktop stuff. But yeah, it uses GTK2.
– transcribe: Shareware. Uses GTK1.
– mathwords? You mean Master Math Words? Shareware, math-learning program for kids. But yes, uses GTK2.
– netfront: Are you serious? That’s a browser for mobile phones! There’s a Linux SDK for GTK _and_ Qt.
Try again. Maybe you should name some real desktop apps written in GTK. According to the list you posted, GTK is suited for cheap hacks, shareware and kiddy stuff, but not for any serious application development…
The list goes on, and you see, there are many more Qt/ KDE closed source apps than GTK apps. Also notice, most closed source Linux apps are from outside the USA, from countries where desktop Linux is more widespread and KDE is the default desktop.
The problem with your argument is, as like most carelessly made and naive comparisons, you cannot compare. Like:
– What is the last time you checked the company address of Opera and Trolltech?
– You attempts to argue about the widespreadness, but how widespread worldwide is e.g. Hancom Office (which is a CJK office suit, not just Chinese, by the way).
Acrobat Reader (last version 3.x) was actually a Motif application. Adobe Reader has not been so long out, and I am wondering who declared it to a “GTK reference application” (which would be GIMP as in “GIMP Toolkit”).
And you clearly attempts to discredit products like VMware. It does not matter whether they could use something else – this is true for a lot of products. But they chose it, whether it is VMware or Skype.
You also ignore other factors that contribute to the decision. Opera is designed to share source code between different platforms. GTK is not designed with cross-plattform in mide as like Qt.
More issue arises with commercial applications because not even your assertion GTK = GNOME and Qt = KDE is true. Many of the applications you listed made the decision on toolkit, not desktop.
> What is the last time you checked the company
> address of Opera and Trolltech?
Uhm… Does it matter? And if so, why? First of all, both companies’ headquarters are in Europe. And I said most commercial Linux _applications_ come from outside the US, which is quite easy to see.
> You attempts to argue about the widespreadness, but
> how widespread worldwide is e.g. Hancom Office
> (which is a CJK office suit, not just Chinese, by
> the way).
I wrote about widespread use of Linux as an desktop OS, not about the widepread use of the applications. It doesn’t really matter how widespread Hancom Office is. If I want to develop a desktop application for Linux (even if portability doesn’t matter), I would try to use a toolkit that feels native on _my_ desktop, especially if there are only two choices anyway – with similar market share. And I need to correct myself, Hancom is a Korean company…
> Acrobat Reader (last version 3.x) was actually a
> Motif application. Adobe Reader has not been so
> long out, and I am wondering who declared it to a
> “GTK reference application” (which would be GIMP as
> in “GIMP Toolkit”).
The last Acroread using Motif was 5.0, not 3.x. And it’s the only real closed source desktop GTK2 application, that makes it sort of a reference application. Since we’re talking about commercial closed source applications, GIMP doesn’t matter.
> And you clearly attempts to discredit products like
> VMware. It does not matter whether they could use
> something else – this is true for a lot of products.
> But they chose it, whether it is VMware or Skype.
You didn’t get the point. The user interface doesn’t matter at all for VMWare. Because you don’t _work_ with VMWare’s interface, you set it up, start the VM, and that’s it. It doesn’t matter if the interface/ toolkit is buggy as hell, slow, un-intuitive or butt-ugly. For a desktop app like Skype the toolkit matters (integration, look, speed, memory footprint).
You forgot two impartant ones: Google Earth and Adobe Photoshop Elements are based on Qt, too.
/*You forgot two impartant ones: Google Earth and Adobe Photoshop Elements are based on Qt, too.*/
Both of which are not avaliable for Linux.
> > /*You forgot two impartant ones: Google Earth and Adobe
> > Photoshop Elements are based on Qt, too.*/
> Both of which are not avaliable for Linux.
Which proves that companies are willing to pay the QT license fee without problems. Thanks for your comment.
/*
Which proves that companies are willing to pay the QT license fee without problems. Thanks for your comment.*/
Then why are they not avaliable for Linux? Or in the case of GoogleMap, MacOSX aswell?
Edited 2005-11-05 20:49
Don’t know – it’s Adobes/ Googles decision. But I don’t think a few thousand dollars would be the reason for Adobe or Google.
But at least they have the _option_ to release ports in no time when needed, and I think that matters…
Then why are they not avaliable for Linux? Or in the case of GoogleMap, MacOSX aswell?
Because they don’t see the Linux market as important as the Windows one. Practically speaking, who would buy Adobe Photoshop Elements for Linux? Not many people, I’m sure. Oh, and Google Earth will come to Linux soon.
Nope, I only listed a few of the commercial Qt apps available FOR LINUX. There are many more – TheKompany’s stuff for example, VariCAD, Iridas Framecycler and Speedgrader, RaveHD, Mainsoft Mainactor…
IMHO, i wonder why there hasn’t been a project to re-create the KDE desktop with GNOME widgets. If this happened, i’d use it.
And what would be the point.
I think the point is that it would allow people to write applications that look nice alongside the Desktop Environment without paying through the noze for the right toolkit. However I don’t think GTK is the right toolkit for something like KDE, if anything a new toolkit should be made by the KDE developers if they have the manpower and resources for that. Then the new toolkit should be released under the GNU LGPL so people can actually afford to make a living writing software with that toolkit.
Then please for the love of god, I wish Novell would FIX their Gnome set up so that the menus are STANDARD. The Menu should be Applications -> Internet -> Firefox. Not how it is now, with Applications -> Internet -> Web Browsers -> Firefox. You should have to go down that far in a menu tree. Mandriva does the same thing, and it’s irritating. I prefer Ubunut/Debian/Fedora, they do it right. KDE based distros, when they do have Gnome, usually screw up the menu structure.
One of the main reasons I think that a Linux desktop is easier to use, especially for new computer users, is the menu structure is so much more simpler.
If you just use a default Gnome install, using Epiphany instead of Firefox, it’s even easier with the menu entry just saying “Web Browser”. Simplistic and fantastic.
I don’t really care much if Suse switches to Gnome or not, since I use Debian, but if they do, they should at least fix their menu layout so that it matches other distributions. There really shouldn’t be different menu layouts per distribution anyhow!
RedHat:
Standardize on Gnome > Become disillusioned in desktop on linux > abandon Desktop-oriented product.
SUN:
Standardize on Gnome > Become disillusioned in desktop on linux > abandon Desktop-oriented product.
Novell:
Standardize on Gnome > Become disillusioned in desktop on linux > abandon Desktop-oriented product.
If a company wants to dump a Client-side Linux distro, adopting Gnome makes perfect sense/excuse to me.
You forgot to mention HP.
HP:
Standardize on Gnome > Become disillusioned in desktop on linux > abandon Desktop-oriented product.
Wow suse switches to gnome, and the kde babies seem to go ballistic with an all out frontal assault on gnome.
I find gnome to be perfectly fine as a desktop DE. I can do everything i want, its more pleasing and less stressful on the eyes and noone will convince me otherwise. So people can go on about their polls about how KDE is accepted everywhere or whatever. The DE world is changing now. XFCE is in the game now and enlightenment might jump ship soon.
Im srry for the kde guys, but it looks like enterprise is now synonymous with gnome now. Dont bash the gnome folks for that but just accept that and let them enjoy their moment. A standard was required for linux to move on.
most of my linux life has been with kde. I kept switching to gnome….. but i would switch back to kde since i was more familar with it. But i loved the gnome look. Later on i went to WM and enjoyed my time with enlightenment and flluxbox, but the DE world was calling me. I then decided to get to learn and use gnome and I havent look back. The applications just intrigue me and the stuff that is in beta has got me even more captivatied like luminosity and beagle. KDE always screamed complexity and i was never satisfied with it no matter how much i tweaked it.
KDE and gnome are 2 different things for 2 different people. And you cant tell me otherwise. My lust for features wasnt on par with most of the kde developers and supporters….. so i switch to gnome.
There goes the main reason I was using SuSE.
So, now it’s a rumor, eh? Come on, guys. Yesterday, you were reporting this as solid news, as certain as tomorrow’s sunrise.
In case anyone was wondering what’s wrong with “news” sites that fail to independently verify the stories they publish, this is it.
They killed other products before. Now they kill SuSe by forcing it into Gnome, the second choice on the desktop.
fourth choice, actually…
kde > xfce4 > windowmaker > gnome.
ok ok windowmaker per se is not a desktop…
but that up there is my chain of choices.
Standardizing on Gnome seam to be a very good idea. I’m by no means saying that KDE is a bad desktop, on the contrary it is very good, but Gnome is good enough. A standardized look of the commercial Linux desktop is more important than the additional bells and whistles KDE would have offered.
The notion of a standard will make it easier to convince companies to port applications to Linux as they will only have to offer support to one desktop.
To Novell this is important, as the more applications that becomes available the easier it will be to sell subscriptions.
Chosing Gnome over KDE as the standard is rather obvious. First we have the licensing problems of QT, not that a the cost of a QT license is that high, but it makes it harder for semiprofessional developers to enter the market.
Another problem is the KDE configurability and notoriously bad defaults. Being able to change everything and sit down and make it just right for days, is fine for the geek home user who even might find this process fun. However, when you have to pay somebody for doing that, instead of having that person doing productive work it is not fun anymore. Windows suffers from the same problem by the way.
In Gnome simple things are kept simple. This will make Gnome users become productive faster, and will require less training costs. Lessened costs is one of the thing Novell, and other commercial Linux distros tries to offer their customers. So from a business point of view this makes sense.
> This will make Gnome users become productive faster
I didn’t made that experience. Actually I had a lot of problems using GNOME specially all the basic features don’t really work. Printing, Mailing, Crashing, Weak apps and so on. I always have to seek for KDE alternatives to get my work done.
> Lessened costs is one of the thing Novell, and other
> commercial Linux distros tries to offer their
> customers.
That’s whyt many companies aquiring licenses and support from Trolltech to get their software ported and working. They don’t need to waste hours of manpower to google for GTK+ solutions, they simply call up Trolltech and continue doing their work. Even the OOP approach of QT allows rapid application development.
> So from a business point of view this makes sense.
Exactly! It makes a lot of sense as we can see on Trolltechs portfolio they have a lot of really known companies who use their work. It speaks lectures.
> This will make Gnome users become productive faster
I didn’t made that experience. Actually I had a lot of problems using GNOME specially all the basic features don’t really work. Printing, Mailing, Crashing, Weak apps and so on. I always have to seek for KDE alternatives to get my work done.
I think we are talking about different things. I talk about how Gnome is supposed to work, you are talking about bugs.
Up until Gnome 2.6 or even 2.8 I would agree with you, that the basic functions was too bug ridden to be of any use for real work.
It was not long ago I always found myself going back to KDE to get work done after trying Gnome, but after using late Gnome distros such as Ubuntu and Fedora I would say Gnome is shaping up rapidly. This time I will not switch back on the grounds that Gnome is technically substandard.
Exactly! It makes a lot of sense as we can see on Trolltechs portfolio they have a lot of really known companies who use their work. It speaks lectures.
I agree with you that Trolltech technology is superior to gtk, but unfortunately the best technology doesn’t allways win. Just remember the case of the much better Sony Betamax being beaten by the mediocre VHS VCR systems.
Sure, QT makes development faster, but Gnome/Gtk is not that bad if you use e.g. gtkmm/glade. The problem is that KDE lacks so much in the usability and accessability department that it doesn’t make up for the better development process in KDE.
After all, in most cases there are more users than developers. Just look at the old MacOS, it was hell to developers but even so Apple is still alive and kicking today.
Do you know why this sucks? Now Novell, Sun and RedHat are all pulling on Gnome and not in the same direction. Thats not good for Gnome. For KDE this means litle, their course was always more or less the same no mater how much or litle distros suported them.
What gets me thinking is Yast, it’s a QT app and now Suse is going Gnome what dose this mean for Yast?
YaST itself is a console app, YaST2 is written in Qt.
I think that YaST and YaST2 use the same underlying code and the curses and Qt parts are just frontends, so writing a GTK frontend and no doubt calling it YaST3 wouldn’t be too difficult.
“so writing a GTK frontend and no doubt calling it YaST3 wouldn’t be too difficult.”
i disagree. i tried to make a ‘pure KDE’ on suse and failed miserably. while its possible to have a ‘pure GNOME’ on suse without any kde libraries whatsoever, the same is far from true the other way round. yast and lots of qt/kde applications make use of glib, bonobo, and quite a few other gnome libs. if you try to uninstall yast, half the gnome libs gets uninstalled too because of dependencies. so it seems like making a gtk port will be quite straightforward.
whoops
. ignore that bit about me disagreeing. i read the persons post wrongly.
“The problem is that GNOME is a quite closed group of people and the real life problems like dealing with jealous people, killing off enemy projects etc. is coming with it. Even if GNOME stand The problem is that GNOME is a quite closed group of people and the real life problems like dealing with jealous people, killing off enemy projects etc. is coming with it. Even if GNOME standardize, it still doesn’t mean that it improves better or gets better fixed. I think that GNOME has a lot of internal problems to solve first. GNOME don’t want any exernal contributors, only those who fix the leftovers that no one wants to work on.ardize, it still doesn’t mean that it improves better or gets better fixed. I think that GNOME has a lot of internal problems to solve first. GNOME don’t want any exernal contributors, only those who fix the leftovers that no one wants to work on.”
you can see that even on events. the ppl in talk sessions and on booths make it clear – KDE is all about fun. nicely hacking together. you don’t see that in the gnome camp (or, at least, less).
Well folks this puts an end to my company’s move towards Linux versions of our games.
Linux will remain with us for server use where it shines of course.
The ability, almost desire, for Linux projects and companies to deliberately shoot themselves in the foot is staggering and sickening.
I was my hands of the Linux desktop mess.
I wash my hands of the Linux desktop mess.
O.K., goodbye
Well folks this puts an end to my company’s move towards Linux versions of our games.
Linux will remain with us for server use where it shines of course.
The ability, almost desire, for Linux projects and companies to deliberately shoot themselves in the foot is staggering and sickening.
I was my hands of the Linux desktop mess.
OK, Have a nice day!!! Nice knowing you!!! Buh-bye!!!
the eweek article has a few very interesting lines, quoting and paraphrasing Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (novell director of marketing for linux and open source — ex-ximian, for those who need this info to judge the guy’s credibility).
‘As for the Evolution e-mail client, “this is a stable, mature product, so we are redeploying its developers to other more strategic projects.” However, “It also has a lot of community support, and we plan to leverage it with other e-mail programs like Hula.” Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. (….) “The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE,” said Mancusi-Ungaro.’
this is all in response to a previous linuxtoday.com opinion piece
[ http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-11-04-018-26-OP-SS-… ]
that claimed “Novell Is Chopping Its SUSE Linux Workstation and Desktop Product Line”.
“we are redeploying its developers”
in my book, this amounts to a complete disolution of the previously existing Evoluton development group in India.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of euphemisms.]
“to other more strategic projects”
in my book, this amounts to the complete dropping of any future Evolution support by novell. Evolution once was dubbed as “a strategic cornerstone to conquer the linux desktop market”.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro for clever wording.]
“it also has a lot of community support”
in my book, this amounts to a lame justification for dropping Evolution. as for the substance of the claim: i can’t say anything. from a cursory look however, it seems the community support for Evolution isnt quite famous.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro for clever wording.]
“default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop”
in my book, this amounts to the confirmation of the linuxtoday claim which said “Novell Is Chopping Its SUSE Linux Workstation and Desktop Product Line”. Or do you see it mentioned? SLES is not “workstation”, and NLD is not “SUSE product line”.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro for clever wording.]
“KDE (….) will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE”
in my book, this amounts to saying that novell drops support for kde. novell and suse had made it a big point before that opensuse was not a product, but a project. being an *open* project, it may be well assumed that kde will still be supported there, by the community, not by novell.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro for clever wording.]
Verdict: Mancusi-Ungaro is a clever marketing guy. most readers would easily fall prey to him.
and NLD is not “SUSE product line”
This is plainly not true, what you are talking. SuSE has been marketing SuSE Linux Desktop before the Novell acquisition.
of all this Linux stuff. I will stick on my w2k. After all, there are enough apps (all type of licences) for it.
This is not only a bad day for KDE, it is also a bad day for GNOME. Now the two major Linux companies (RedHat and Novell) have abandoned their home user desktop distributions. […] This is bad because obviously these companies will also not put resources into projects that are only useful for home users. And most corporate desktop and server software is not really that useful for the average home user.
I would actually question the fact that the distributors did invest significantly in home user centric development in the past. My impression is that most home user demand not covered by those “enterprise distributions” is multimedia, and the development has not been significantly sponsored by distributors anyway.
At least someone had this stuff in perspective. Personally I don’t really care which outfit comes out on top in the Great Linux Desktop War. I just want an elegant, well-designed desktop that works. And if one doesn’t arrive in the next couple of years, I guess I’ll lose faith in Linux and move on, or back, to Apple. This endless ya-boo-sucks, yabber-dabber ding-dong between KDE and Gnome has gone on for years and it’s poison. As the main said, What’s wrong with these people? Why can’t they just get along?
All this implies that Novell have a plan and know what they are doing, of course. I wouldn’t place too much faith in that looking at events in Novell over the past year.
Anyway, I’ve copped out for now and use Xfce. Ok, there are no icons. But considering the terrible standards of design in evidence both on Gnome and on KDE, I count that a blessing. All this arguing and they can’t even sort out a professional designer or two. As for fonts, we won’t even start on those.
Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth announced that he was now using Kubuntu on his desktop machine and said he wanted Kubuntu to move to a first class distribution within the Ubuntu community.
http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php
These are great news for the KDE movement.
Then why are they not avaliable for Linux? Or in the case of GoogleMap, MacOSX aswell?
One of the Adobe developers working on Photoshop Elements said in his keynote at the Trolltech Developer Days in Munich that it is not a technical desicion but a marketing decision to not offer Photoshop Elements for Linux or MacOSX. Even if it is technically simple to port Photoshop Elements to Linux and MacOSX, support for three platforms instead of one costs money.
not if you know what you’re doing.
back in the days when i was learning C and C++ at the U, one point in EVERY piece of code we had to write was “must compile and work under DOS as well as under unix, without changes to the source. and #IFDEF doesnt count.”
Solution: stick to standards. never assume things because they are like that on ONE platform. use sizeof(int) instead of a constant value, for example.
There’s a point where standards don’t cover what you need any more, for example without turning to 3rd party libraries there is little to no support for networking, getting information on file systems such as the contents of a folder, or threading in current ISO C++. Posix libraries provide such functionality and are available in almost every OS, but those aren’t part of the standard libraries of programming languages.
The sample programs you work with in computer science courses are very controlled to avoid this obstacle. Furthermore there are libraries provided for you as part of the course that provide a frontend to anything beyond the scope of the course, thus making it seem easier than it really is.
I have stopped using Gnome this year. I now use KDE because it just works, and it’s a lot more polished.
With Gnome I have had serious unstability issues, it used to freeze several times a week. I remember re-compiling it over night several times. I don’t know, for instance the logout button stopped responding at times.
Other than that, Gnome is ugly whereas KDE is modern and clean. I also feel that KDE grows faster than Gnome and new releases are always THE event.
Oh well, I don’t use SuSE, so that doesn’t matter for me.
Debian’s default desktop has always (as far back as I can remeber) been Gnome. And yet they have always provided (vanilla) KDE, which is fine with me, even if it doesn’t get the polish that Gnome does.
And yet I am a happy Debian and KDE user.
– Novell was not making money on SUSE
– Novell have invested a lot of effort in Mono
– Novell are bulding a large Mono stack for Gnome
– Novell had to cut costs
You can complain as much as you like, but that will not change the situation.
So instead lets focus on what needs to be done with Gnome:
– Performance has to be better
– Media files needs to work
– More eye candy!
– More and better System GUI tools
– Firefox and Gecko needs to improve
– Usability, usability, usability
There is one big BUT in the Gnome camp, and that is the use of Mono. Red Hat are not thrilled and Novell are manic about the development platform. Will the community fork?
Novell was not making money on SUSE
Yes it was, because Suse was making money.
Novell have invested a lot of effort in Mono
Which creates zero revenue.
Novell are bulding a large Mono stack for Gnome
Not that I can see, and they’re certainly not using it if there is one. And no, one or two applications here and there doesn’t count.
Novell had to cut costs
Well done.
So instead lets focus on what needs to be done with Gnome:
– Performance has to be better
– Media files needs to work
– More eye candy!
– More and better System GUI tools
– Firefox and Gecko needs to improve
– Usability, usability, usability
Which costs serious amounts of developer time, resources and money – all of which Novell has just fired in order to cut serious costs. For crying out bloody loud, where do you people think all of this comes from to fund this stuff? It doesn’t come out of thin air! Novell does not exist in order to pump its own resources and money into something so you little fanboys can use software and develop everything for free. Reality bites.
Get this. Novell does not have the money or resources to do absolutely any of the above, and it certainly doesn’t any more. Get real.
> Novell does not have the money or resources to do
> absolutely any of the above, and it certainly doesn’t
> any more.
Not just that, have a look at their current stocks:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=NOVL&t=1d
I’d get rid of my Novell stock too after this.
– Novell was not making money on SUSE
SUSE is a profitable division of Novell. Just because Novell itself is starting to go down the tubes, doesn’t mean SUSE isn’t making money for Novell. That has more to do with Novell’s spending habits and maintaining the dying Netware.
– Novell have invested a lot of effort in Mono
And Novell spent a lot of money on SUSE, close to $300 million, so your point is?
But ahs anyone noticed that All the BSD’s are standardizing on KDE and linux on Gnome. Sounds good to me.
I purchase SuSE since version 6.1.
Replace KDE by Gnome, bye Novell.
I purchase SuSE since version 6.1.
Replace KDE by Gnome, bye Novell
Geez, you must have a lot of money, buying yearly subscriptions to NLD or SLES. Of course you couldn’t be talking about SUSE Pro, considering this change doesn’t affect that product line.
A few nice personal KDE screenshots. They are not representative just my own personal customized preferences.
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot10qu.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss6id.jpg
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot11yl.png
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot39vf.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot42sc.jpg
http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot22rk.jpg
http://img288.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot54gf.jpg
This decision had nothing to do with Gnome vs KDE. The executives at Novell couldn’t give a fig about desktop choices.
Novell is emphasizing Mono. They are evangelizing it. They want it to become the de facto application platform. I won’t comment on whether that’s the best decision becuase frankly, I’m not a developer so am hardly qualified to make a judgement eitehr way, but having made that decision then it seems natural to focus on GTK resources vs qt, making gnome a natural choice pretty much by default.
So the question now is what happens with Gnome? Novell will no doubt push for mono’s inclusion in Gnome, and Red Hat will not accept that. So if mono becomes a requirement, will gnome’s biggest backer accept having to re-write or re-engineer the mono-dependencies out of gnome? Will Red Hat walk? Will gnome resist mandating mono for that reason? Will Novell accept Red Hat’s reservations about mono and not push for inclusion in gnome and the increased legitimacy?
Gnome is dependent upon corporate backers, and therefore incapable of maintaining autonomous control. I’m not criticizing them for weighing heavily on their backers, any project of that nature needs funding and sponsorship to grow and prosper, but it also makes Gnome’s roadmap and direction a bit volatile.
Complain all you want about KDE and eye candy, but at the very least Trolltech is self-funded and can react to market demand rather than balancing sponsor’s agendas. I would expect that gives qt, and indirectly KDE, at least some more stability in terms of direction and roadmap. THAT is the kind of thing enterprises and commercial developers look at.
The qt licensing FUD is BS. If you’re a small developer and can’t see the value in qt, then don’t use it, you’ve got many choices. But the big commercial developers, and many of the smaller ones, weigh things a little differently. They don’t look at qt’s development license in terms of free alternatives, they look at it in terms of return on investment. Leave it to them to decide.
Flame away, I try not to leave incendiary posts but really, this whole topic is getting out of hand. Novell is a multi-billion dollar organization, they’re not making product development decisions, restructuring and setting corporate direction based on Gnome vs. KDE, that’s simply one of many results. But don’t kid yourselves into thinking it was a factor.
Novell is emphasizing Mono. They are evangelizing it. They want it to become the de facto application platform.
No, they’re not, in any way shape or form – period. Some people wish that to be true, but it just isn’t and the notion that it is is just plain laughable. Mono makes no money whatsoever for Novell, and in these layoffs and cuts it is most definitely out of the picture.
>Novell is emphasizing Mono. They are evangelizing it. They want it to become the de facto application platform.
No, they’re not, in any way shape or form – period. Some people wish that to be true, but it just isn’t and the notion that it is is just plain laughable. Mono makes no money whatsoever for Novell, and in these layoffs and cuts it is most definitely out of the picture.
Mono was key to their enterprise stragey, Ximian wasn’t just a boutique purchase. They wanted customers to be able to transition from MS to Linux easily, at least that was the original spin. They need to compete with Red Hat as an application platform. They’ve stated time and time again they don’t intend to remain a server-based platform relying on network services. They are sponsoring the project, they have developers working on it and they’re the only mainstream distro that includes it. Novell doesn’t openly dis Java, and they support it, but they won’t embrace it.
Of course they’re not making money directly on Mono, nobody is. The intent in sponsoring and endorsing is to increase help increase adoption of linux as part of their enterprise strategy.
I can’t speak to Novell’s ultimate future plans, nobody can at this point, but I have a buddy that works there and when he’s out presenting to the channel, mono has been stated as part of their strategy. I’d be very surprised if they wind up totally cutting off sponsorship and funding, and left it to the community to succeed in developing it on their own. If Novell cuts ties with mono it would not bode very well for the project in terms of enterprise legitimacy and may re-ignite the FUD over IP/patent issues.
Anyways, just MHO.
> Mono was key to their enterprise stragey, Ximian wasn’t
> just a boutique purchase.
Actually the majority of Open Source people I met so far asked what the intend of Novell was to buy Ximian. The majority of people came to the conclusion that Novell didn’t knew what they bought. They seem to realize now – now when it start to be too late.
> They wanted customers to be able to transition from MS
> to Linux easily, at least that was the original spin.
That’s a honourable thing to do but as long as the licensing issue with MONO is not cleared – people still avoid MONO and fear being sued by Microsoft for violating patents and other things. Personally it’s easier to have sex with a lion rather than having to deal with Microsoft. It’s cheaper to purchase a QT license for commercial use from Trolltech including great support, rather than dealing with 20 MS lawyers and committing suicide after that because you can’t pay what they ask – only because you use patent violating software like MONO. Wasn’t there a reason why Novell wanted to sell customer protection services (insurance) in case Microsoft wants to chop off your noodle for patent infrigment ?
And what makes you think that TrollTech and KDE couln’t be demanded for Microsoft? MS have the patent for many litle thinks that everyone use including TrollTech and KDE, the diference is that Novell can defend it self with its own patents.
Get real facts troll boy.
And what makes you think that TrollTech and KDE couln’t be demanded for Microsoft? MS have the patent for many litle thinks that everyone use including TrollTech and KDE
Right now, there are no known patents violation in Qt/KDE. If you know something we don’t know, tell us.
Meanwhile, Mono is CLEARLY violating specific patents (ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms as written on the Mono website). There’s a difference.
Novell can defend it self with its own patents.
Microsoft can decide to sue Novell AND the companies using Mono for their projects. I bet noone wants to deal with Microsoft lawyers. At least, noone with a sane mind.
Actually the developers of most OSS software are very careful to avoid infringing on patents, that includes KDE.
looks like the decision to chop the complete retail suse desktop product line is meant to push the worldwide novell organization into a redhat-like server-only subscription-based business
standardize on gnome?
yes, as the GUI terminal used by admins for maintaining there servers!
but novell is going to loose lots of existing customers with this strategy, and win only few new ones.
o well. novell management are not famous for continuing a well running business. they proofed themselves on unix, dr-dos, wordperfect and netware already.
kde they will not kill. kde can happily switch to kubuntu. gnome is in danger to go the way to hell where previous novell products are waiting for it!
if i were a gnome type, i wouldnt rejoice so much!
Uh, no GNOME user is rejoicing. They already use GNOME. What the hell does it matter that Novell is standardising on GNOME?
http://antizealot.blogspot.com/
Don’t waste your time people, this guy’s an anti-OSS troll.
As both a user and a developer, I’m pleased to hear this news. Any developer here would know how we cringe to hear having to develop applications twice to support two platforms. Now, with this consolidation, hobbyists can target KDE or Gnome if they want to, but more finnicky ISV’s who’d like to developer for corporate and enterprise users can just concentrate on one.
Now if only the Gnome people would complete their API Reference and Programming Guide docs.
> Now if only the Gnome people would complete their API
> Reference and Programming Guide docs.
And fix the broken GNOME architecture, concentrate on not so many programming languages for the primary GNOME desktop and get basic things to work normally. Then yes but not earlier!
I have the same problems with KDE, it simple sucks, crash on me all the time, the UI is to confusing and the applications are useless, KOffice its a monument to mediocricy and Konqueror its a slap on my face.
And no, amaroK won’t make me more productive (geez, is just a music player and album collector for then lazzy ones).
So if any KDE developer is reading this you better fix the mess you have in KDE 4 because right now is pathetic.
> crash on me all the time
Care to explain what crashes ? Have you investigated whether the code generated by the C++ compiler you are using actually generated WORKING CODE ? It’s a known fact that C++ support within GCC was pretty poor in the past. Most of the time when I read about KDE crashes it most of the time isn’t a KDE problem, it’s mostly a problem with GCC generating bad code or people overusing CXXFLAGS or whatever.
> the UI is to confusing
I made exactly the oposite experience with the GUI. The GUI is consistent, the toolbar options, features and objects are similar across all KDE applications that use a toolbar. The window components are great too and it’s easy to tell people where to find something to have the settings changed to match their needs. At least its much easier than telling someone to use gconftool-2.
> and the applications are useless
What applications are you refering to ? Most applications on the KDE side that I tried and used are quite mature applications. But then it also depends on your needs. I do assume that you are a hobbiest user who doesn’t know much about the things that students, science or corporates needs. So I can tell you that programs like Kivio, TaskJuggler, Umbrello, Kstars, Koffice, Kedu, KTechlab and many more are quite mature and great applications. I tried to find aequivalents for GNOME for quite a long time but always failed to find anything that comes close to the software offered for KDE.
When I was student at the university I needed to draw some UML stuff (colaboration diagrams, class diagrams, use case diagrams) and all the stuff around it and DIA which is the only existing application that time, gave me a lot of problems by permanently crashing, by giving really ugly and bad results, by causing a lot of errors during loading and saving etc. I consider that stuff to not to be corporate ready. Not to speak about DIA’s printing issues – but that already was enough to get lost with DIA. Umbrellos and Kivio saved my day and they looked and felt the same as known commercial high graded counterparts found for Microsoft Windows.
Also now as IT-Projectmanager I rely on software that simply works, here again Planner comes into my mind which exists for GNOME but compared to TaskJuggler or (MS.Project) it’s just a toy and immature. I had to switch over again to KDE to use TaskJuggler to get my work done correctly.
So honestly by all good will, I can not see how KDE offers crappy applications. Either you are quite clueless troll or you simply don’t know what’s really required in daily business. At least I earn money not from the desktop but the work I give to my customers and I can only accomplish and finish this work by using at least reliable and good software and KDE offers plenty of them. They are not just great applications, their developers do their best to improve the things and the improvements happen in a short time due to the great object oriented background that KDE offers. Great applications to be developed in short time.
> KOffice its a monument to mediocricy
Again I can’t follow your critics here and your ramblings aren’t backed up with facts either, just random bullshit generated comments. Of course KOffice is far from perfect but the KDE developers do their best (even in these hard times) to offer the best possible solution for the best desktop there is.
> and Konqueror its a slap on my face.
For something you haven’t contributed a line code and for something you don’t need to pay for you seem to be shouting out quite energic.
Konqueror is basicly nothing else than just a Window (a User Interface) to the great KIOSlave modell beneath KDE. KIOSlaves as well as KParts are one of the biggest strengths that KDE offers. Modules written and easily shareable for other things. Konqueror makes use of the KIOSlave and KParts model and provides a Window for the most common used things such as FTP, WEB, Filebrowsing. But it’s just a matter of seconds to access other things such as POP3, SQL and other things from within it. Something Nautilus will never be able to do because it’s not laid out to do this kind of tasks (while, it doesn’t even do the basic tasks good enought at all).
So seriously, I can’t understand the audience here. We can have all disputes we want, we can disagree each others and thats all ok. But I am a bit fed up about the FUD spreading and the false facts that some people like to manifest. This is simply ignorant, wrong and plain idiotic.
At the end KDE and GNOME people are sitting in the same boat (not that just that one SUSE developer got fired, but also plenty of GNOME developers got fired as well – for really essential and critical GNOME components).
Hey it is My experience, I don’t go there questioning to the users with bad experience with GNOME.
In my experience KDE simple sucks and is a mediocre DE and the developers better come with something better for KDE 4.
Mitarai I was replying to an Anonymous person. Now I am wondering why you reply to a comment that wasn’t targeted to you – or does it mean you troll around anonymously but then post using different nicks ?
Looking at your user statistics you seem to be one of those who like to post bullshit.
http://www.osnews.com/user.php?uid=2257
29 posted comments and 14 voted down into oblivion.
Well if you are going to look for my profile why don’t you just look the profile of users like, amadeo, cm__ (a KDE developer in a disguise), seged whatever and see the quality of trolls they are.
In my experience KDE simple sucks and is a mediocre DE and the developers better come with something better for KDE 4.
OK, it’s your experience. Others have come up with solid reasoning as to why it is the best open source desktop today, and why the vast majority of people who use Linux desktops seem to agree. When you’re able to do the same, give us a call.
Could the same be aplied to all those GNOME flamers?
or is only valid for KDE?
ick umbrello and kivio. Kivio was straight up useless and umbrello would spontaneously crash on my slackware system. It makes me wonder if there was this much crying when slackware dropped gnome. It made me switch over to debian. I think slackware dropping gnome hurts WAY more then suse dropping kde. I might try dropline or some alternative but ill hold off on that.
yes the UI for most of the kde toolbar is exceptionally cluttered. Some people like it, some people absolutely hate it. There is no other DE which just throws a barrage of icons at your face then kde.
as for kde crashing, I mean it happens to me. It aint super frequent but a lot of things would tip it off, from kscreensaver to kopete. Gnome never crashed for me unless i run xcompmgr. The number of crashing was the same compared to running kde with kcompmgr……which was really high (someone fix it!!)
When it came to looks. KDE would lliterally make me barf until i did a good bit of tweaking. Had to custom build my own icon set cause the ones that were out were either for 3 year olds or OSX ripoffs….or gceanzze…. those are some good icons but they are only really for mime types. Then i needed kpager2, then mtaskbar, of course the only viable theme was baghira (blatant OSX ripoff but only thing i can stand). At that point, i could at most make running kde bearable, but it got a bit to complex.
I have successfully found gtk-gnome applications that is on par or better then kde applications (and i do a lot of different things on linux). And some of these mono projects are looking really good. From my testing monoUML simply destroys umbrello as does monoDevelop does KDevelop (although KDevelop have more tools here and there). And as i mentioned before i love using beagle and luminosity. Since my computer is a speed machine i use them with no problem. and i like gaim, totem, graveman, bluefish, evolution, and gedit and im still stuck in xmms world even with all the songs i got =).
Although Konqueror is nice, I will honestly tell the kde team to simply give up on koffice. And i hate that monolithic package system. Thank god they now have options to install by app, because there is so much crap that i dont need when using those packages.
Well umm in the end…. i like gnome. leave me alone, because i dont feel any less inferior or productive then the kde camp. Suse picked gnome…..leave them alone because they feel just content with the decision……….or else they wouldnt have made it. There is a reason where they are where theyre at……..and you guys are where u are at. Of course the company is not doing spectacular at the moment, but they have focus and bring in their revenue and have way more people that know more than u.
It sucks when a company cant make a damn decision without some crackpot useless flame war starting up. I didnt see the gnome camp spewing this crap when kde was the default for suse….. it would be best if the kde campe return the favor.
If you hit random crashes on various KDE applications then you should investigate whether its a compiler issue or not (generating broken code) and from your comment I conclude that this is the case. Try recompiling your KDE without and leet CXXFLAGS primarily -O0 -g and investigate into the backtraces. In case you might want to report to slackware (was it that distro) to throw an eye on their packages.
As for MONO. I can tell you that there are mixed feelings about MONO in the GNOME camp and even amongst the core developers. There are a few who like developing in MONO and there are even companies pushing it and even argue against using JAVA and then there are developers and companies involved into GNOME doing exactly the oposite. I will see hell freeze once MONO becomes part of GNOME. Sadly MONO is a nogo for my personal system because simply for the fact that the license issues with MONO are not clear and I don’t know how the future for it looks and what Microsoft is going to say or do in the future. As long as these issues are not cleared I (and many others) are stepping away from it.
Looking at the MONOUML page and reading their HOWTO (and looking at the screenshot provided) the program looks like its in the beginnings of something. KDE’s Umbrellos is regulary being worked on, don’t depend on MONO and correctly integrates into KDE as a whole. It’s possible to export stuff in various languages, import diagrams (xmi), you can do usecases, colaboration diagrams, class diagrams and a few other things as well such as component view and deployment diagrams. And this was already possible a few years ago. Nowadays Umbrello has received many changes and improvements. I regulary keep throwing an eye on it but my personal needs for Umbrello isn’t existing anymore due the fact that my university times are over. But maybe I need it again one day in my daily work.
About the toolbar issue you described. I wasn’t refering to all the buttons you got thrown to your head. I was more talking about the toolbar object as a whole.
It’s one ready written object that exists inside KDE. The toolbar offers the possibility to set buttons, change the toolbar (editor), have the toolbar show up under various ways (text below icons, icons only, text only, text beside icons), then the buttons can be shown with different sizes 16×16, 24×24, 48×48 and so on. Things the GNOME derivates don’t offer. That’s why you see Evince as well as Epiphany coming with their own toolbar editor while other gnome applications don’t offer it. That’s why you see so many different types of toolbars and toolbar styles, behavior, features etc. It’s not the buttons I talked about, it’s the toolbar as a whole and imagine this for many other cool objects that KDE offers.
http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg
You like to throw an eye on that screenshot above.
Im running on a slackware system. I assume that kde was compiled at the max -O2 when it comes to optimizations. -O2 is not l33t in anyway. It’s stable and everything runs fine.
KDE crashes. I aint really go beyond that and blame anything but KDE. Its not that often so i dont really get on its case, but it does crash and i would expect that. In fact it was the 3.4 version that I used, and it might have been fixed in 3.4.1. who knows. Its a big project…. and I dont mind thinking that the kde developers are incapable of implementing “crash-free” code.
I mean umbrello is ick to me. Oh its better than visio, but it crashes way to often and I cant really get far with it. Prolly because I am a software designer, and I do use tools like this very often (though i stick with rational rose).
Anyways with the toolbar issue one thing is that i never saw gtk and gnome as the same thing. That screenshot doesnt really tell me anything. Having evenly sized toolbars across all apps for a DE is not a criterea for being usable, even creating a greater sense of integration. No DE provides what ur saying. There is a great deal of apps outside of the KDE packages that are created with the QT toolkit, but looks way off in size shape compared to other apps. Alot of people dont use the toolbar objects to develop their software….. and thats ok. Windows dont do it, OSX doesnt do it. Its a moot issue to me.
Ali you are clown. The toolbar is an object/class in GTK+. Developers are at liberty to set it up however they like. As usual, spouting bullocks you know nothing about.
> The toolbar is an object/class in GTK+. Developers are
> at liberty to set it up however they like. As usual,
> spouting bullocks you know nothing about.
Lateef, you are wrong. First of all you need to distinguish between a class and an object. A class is some sort of abstraction to define an object. And if developers “set it up differently” they simply create different objects out of it.
Example:
The Evince toolbar offers a toolbar editor so it’s basicly a different object than the initial object as found inside GTK+. If we build up using the GTK+ object then we usually call it subclassing. That is adding or overwriting existing class definitions and attributes. The result is a new object as in this case it’s an Evince toolbar object.
But now imagine this, it would have been better to move the toolbar editor object code inside GTK+ to make this a default behavior of the internal GTK+ toolbar object and as soon as we inherit that object in our applications we instantly would allow all our apps to use that toolbar editor.
Since this is not happening we deal with even more toolbar objects than the basic ones we already have (GTK+, GNOMEUI, BONOBOUI, the ones through bindings).
If the GTK+ toolbar object was designed correctly then it would allow us to do this (out of the object itself)
a) describe whether we want handles or not (to drag the toolbar out of the app or align it horizontally, vertically, at the bottom or the top or inside other toolbar elements)
b) allows us to globally set the icon size (as KDE offers this possibility by right clicking on the toolbar object)
c) allows us to globally edit the toolbar and save the results in a configuration file so it stays permanent.
d) react on global changes set through control center.
But within this screenshot:
http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg
You see all the toolbars to be different. Some toolbars already come with drag handles, others come without one, other toolbars are essentially bigger (higher even if its just 1-2 pixels) than others, other toolbars already come with text below icons while others come as icons only on default.
For me these are all “new objects” or different humans such as an indian, an afro american, a chinese, a japan, a turk and so on.
KDE offers one toolbar object which already is defined with many methods and attributes. This object is inherit in all applications as object (and not via functioncall). The objects do look the same while providing an interface to define own toolbar actions (such as a new button, save button, forward and backward button, help button, zoom in zoom out zoom 100% button and so on.
Also the bindings that exist for GNOME are quite incomplete or broken I don’t know how valid this is for pythong (since I assume that python bindings are quite good) but there are other bindings who’se toolbars look differently because the maintainers are bone headed to inherit the default objects correctly.
Now GNOMEUI and BONOBOUI as far as their maintainers told me inherit their toolbar code from GTK+ but yet the GNOMEUI and BONOBOUI toolbars are new objects since they react and do basic things totally differently than others.
Now it’s a known fact for over one year and longer that GNOMEUI and BONOBOUI are going to be deprecated and disappear (for me this process is not going on fast enough) but there are still people who “style their own toolbar objects” and this is not acceptable. At least not for a corporate desktop that wants to be coherent and clean.
The abiword toolbar for example is nearly 4 bixels bigger than the other toolbars – why ? All this mess with different “toolbar art” only says that there is something dramatically wrong with GTK+ otherwise I can’t see the point for applications to create new objects.
Besides said that, I don’t see the point for Evince providing a toolbar editor. I say this because there are far other issues with Evince (even basic tasks) that it can not accomplish correctly due to crashes, due to not implemented (like printing correctly) so I wonder where the priorities are set.
Wouldn’t it have been better to provide the toolbar editor code towards GTK+ for global acceptance and global effect ?
> As usual, spouting bullocks you know nothing about.
I think the guy who spouts out bollocks and who know nothing about is you otherwise you would have been agreeing with me as everyone else whom I have shown the problem agreed with me. The reason why I come up with the toolbar issue is, that the toolbar issues is pretty easy to explain. It’s so easy that even non-technical people get an idea of what I am trying to explain them.
There are dozens of other issues that I could easily throw up here but I avoid indepth enmeshment with developers and people.
Having different toolbars is not an advantage, it only leads to irritation.
Example:
Say you get a new user for GNOME and that user starts using GNOME for the first time, he first starts Evince and changes the toolbar by adding the zoom in and zoom out buttons, then he starts Gedit and wants to remove a few buttons, he is irritated and asks why he can change elements in Evince but not in Gedit. He feels irritated.
Maybe assuming that Gedit offers a toolbar editor as well, if he has to access the toolbar editor through the menu then he might get confused as well, because the option to access the editor might be burried around some deep menu structure or offer a different name.
He is also confused and irritated because he can drag off a toolbar from Gnumeric but can’t do so with Evince, He will also be confused once he set the global “Toolbar & Menus” capplet (control center) and realizes that only 1/3 of the default GNOME application obey these rules and others not.
This is totally inacceptable and for me this is a bug. What I don’t understand is, that even if you point the people to these obvious bugs they seem to not be willing to solve them.
Another issue would be the way to concatenate filenames in GNOME but this will clearly be getting to technical here. It looks like everyone does whatever he feels right but at the end we get a wild mixture of applications that don’t follow any standard guidelines. Maybe this is also put back due the lack of documentations but who knows.
How comes we don’t have these “critical” issues inside KDE ? One possible answer is that the developers understand to follow some global guidelines, maybe they know aesthetics, or maybe their OOP approach is so foolproof that you can’t do wrong, regardless if you try. Maybe their technology is supperior enough so people don’t need to subclass things like toolbars. If they need something they improve the toolbar class and so make the resulting object more mature.
Anyways I hope my explaination wasn’t overkill to you.
Ali, just stop please. The more you talk the more you expose your ignorance.
If the GTK+ toolbar object was designed correctly then it would allow us to do this (out of the object itself)
a) describe whether we want handles or not (to drag the toolbar out of the app or align it horizontally, vertically, at the bottom or the top or inside other toolbar elements)
I have written GNOME apps, and I know the GTK+ toolbar class/object allows you to set this up.
b) allows us to globally set the icon size (as KDE offers this possibility by right clicking on the toolbar object)
Are you kidding me?
c) allows us to globally edit the toolbar and save the results in a configuration file so it stays permanent.
No shit! What is UIManager is GTK+ for? There is even a library that gives you a toolbar editor for free.
d) react on global changes set through control center.
You don’t even have to write any code for this. It is the default behavior.
But of course, if you knew what you were saying to begin with, I wouldn’t be writing this comment.
You are a sad case, truly.
> I have written GNOME apps, and I know the GTK+ toolbar
> class/object allows you to set this up.
So did I and it’s not based on gay ass python language.
http://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotgenesihome2hl.pn…
> What is UIManager is GTK+ for? There is even a library
> that gives you a toolbar editor for free.
GtkUIManager is the right keyword for it and I am using it for my own project too. But that’s not the point, there are still a lot of applications which are not using GtkUIManager or alter the attributes of the toolbar.
> You don’t even have to write any code for this. It is
> the default behavior.
No you don’t but if you would have tested what I wrote then you would realize that I was right.
Start up GNUMERIC, ABIWORD, GEDIT, NAUTILUS and go to the gnome-control center (Menus and Toolbar) and try altering the toolbars. Now click on the ‘deatachable toolbars’ setting and see if you get that in GNUMERIC, then try setting TEXT below ICONS and see what happens with GNUMERIC (and then try testing this with all the other apps you got).
> But of course, if you knew what you were saying to
> begin with, I wouldn’t be writing this comment.
I can say the same about you but unless you, I am able to prove what I wrote. Simply take a look at this movie and wait until the toolbar section shows up
http://zerv.internetcafe.nl/~nexu/lol/gnome-the-movie.avi
I dont really want to say anything. But I think you are possibly going way off base into a pointless argument here.
The GTK toolbar classes are just fine and developers can make all the applications have the same infrastructure pretty easily. They dont…..and neither does the people who use KDE and the Qt toolkit.
Why the hell are you comparing how the icon sets toolbars (and that is all u are focusing on) is different in one application to the next. Get real. KDE has the same damn problem because you dont have to use the QT toolbox classes to create your program.
I have no clear idea as to the point you are proving. You keep talking toolbars, toolbars, toolbars in some vain desperate attempt to mathematically prove how kde is more usable then gnome. Meanwhile the toolbars in kde have no standard between applications. For each application the buttons are arranged differently, some applications dont even have toolbars, some qt applications look nothing like other qt applications, and kde allows people to use none kde applications. So its a moot point.
You seem to have a VERY poor grasp behind the purpose of a framework and when and what is used within it. Your crying because different applications have different toolbar sizes……..mabey because they are different applications. I mean look at the screenshot you provided. Do you want gedit to really have the same size toolbar as gnumeric. Hell no. Gnumeric has leagues more frequently used icons. I DONT want some huge toolbox with the same icon size. And at the same time, I DONT want 5 tiny little icons that are the same size for gedit (ala kwrite). Your argument is stupid not because of what you said, but how u seem to stand by how having the same size toolbars for apps is a fact that the DE is better. You might like it better and that ok, but please dont pound it into my head that that makes kde better. OSX doesnt have same size and form toolbars across all apps, neither does windows. Thankfully the same can be said about gnome, and its not because GTK is unable to facilitate it.
In other words, GNOME is unusable.
> I dont really want to say anything.
Then please don’t. After having read your comment, you clearly have shown that you don’t understand anything about the matter.
> The GTK toolbar classes are just fine and developers
> can make all the applications have the same
> infrastructure pretty easily.
Right, but the problem is, they don’t.
> They dont…..and neither does the people who use KDE and the Qt toolkit.
Every KDE toolbar that I have seen so far is inherited from the same object. They all provide drag handles, obey global preferences, have the RMB feature to change the icons (with text or without) and to change the default size of the toolbar (16×16, 24×24 and so on), they also offer a toolbar editor. Show me one KDE application existing (even 3rd party KDE app that behaves differently.
> KDE has the same damn problem because you dont have
> to use the QT toolbox classes to create your program.
You are wrong, that’s exactly one of the biggest strengths inside KDE, to reuse components and objects, this also explains the rapid application framework that it offers.
> I have no clear idea as to the point you are proving.
Why do you waste my time with your reply then ?
> Meanwhile the toolbars in kde have no standard
> between applications.
They do, they inherit the KDE toolbar object and change the attributes to match the buttons that the application has to use. But I haven’t seen one KDE application that comes with an custom own toolbar code.
> For each application the buttons are arranged
> differently, some applications dont even have
> toolbars.
That’s of course ok but wasn’t my point. I clearly said that it’s not the BUTTONS and how they are arranged, I spoke about the toolbar object (the code beneath it) – which part you don’t get here ? It’s clear for even clueless donkeys.
> You seem to have a VERY poor grasp behind the purpose
> of a framework and when and what is used within it.
You seem to be quite clueless in what you want to reply compared to what I initially wrote. Go back, read what I wrote, think about it, think again about it, and then reply.
> Do you want gedit to really have the same size
> toolbar as gnumeric.
No and again, that’s not the point.
> Your argument is stupid not because of what you said,
> but how u seem to stand by how having the same size
> toolbars for apps is a fact that the DE is better.
My argument might be stupid in your eyes, but then it’s because you don’t understand the point. Everyone else whom I brought up this issue seem to have understood the problem. Go back, read what I wrote, think about it, think again about it, and then reply.
> Thankfully the same can be said about gnome, and its
> not because GTK is unable to facilitate it.
Go back, read what I wrote, think about it, think again about it, and then reply.
They do, they inherit the KDE toolbar object and change the attributes to match the buttons that the application has to use.
Actually developers usually don’t inherit from the KToolBar class but use it as-is and plug in actions, again usually the standard actions created by kdelibs
But that are mainly technical details, you’re correct on the point that the applications use the same code
“You are wrong, that’s exactly one of the biggest strengths inside KDE, to reuse components and objects, this also explains the rapid application framework that it offers. ”
From that point on I really dont know what your point is or if you are sure what you are talking about. For one I know that you dont even need to have a Qt application for it to run on KDE. And also even though Im not familar with the Qt platform, I know that developers can create their own classes when it comes to how the toolkit will work.
Please for the record, state what your point is then. If it is that KDE is more usable then say it. If your point goes back to how some gnome applications use their own or derived classes to customize their applications, then fine you made your point. What that really means in the scheme of things…. i really dont know.
GTK provides the tools to do what ur talking about in KDE. However, I like how application developers actually use seperate classes so that it is actually tailored to what the application does. Of course Qt promotes using their classes and probably makes it easier to use their classes. Which causes a great influx of applications from 3rd parties. I will chalk that up to you. However, It also causes a great influx of crap, in terms of application purpose and usability. For every new application there was a good amount of tweaking I had to do. It seems like the 3rd parties let the toolkit do all the work and not provide proper integration.
It is a win-lose situation. And one of the reason that KDE and Gnome advocates just argue for years over things. And it is a reason why Gnome and KDE users say that they like the look of a certain DE over the other, even though they cant explain why. For every advantage there is a disadvantage.
Call me stupid or whatever, but I dont want GTK to be like QT. And I know the same applies vice-versa.
Go back, read what I wrote, think about it, think again about it, and then reply.
Ummm no.
If you have made your point already…..then so be it. You can continue to act like that and not say what the overall point is. Thats ok whatever.
I know all about software reuse is and I know what the Qt toolkit can provide. I know what the GTK toolkit can provide. I know which DE I like better and which DE i am more productive with.
I read what you wrote. I understand what you said. I dont know what your point is. It is possible to say stuff and not have a point……and you either didnt have a point, or failed to emphasize what it really is.
I should expect something like this from someone who told me that KDE crashes because i am going beyond -O0 optimizations (if that was in fact you).
> I should expect something like this from someone who
> told me that KDE crashes because i am going beyond -O0
> optimizations (if that was in fact you).
Yes it was a recommendation from my side to use -O0 since it’s a known fact that the GCC compilers produce bad code for some architectures, specially when under heavy optimisation. It’s no secret after all – so a recommendation to test it without optimisation could be a benefit not just that it’s also better for backtrace reporting in companion with the original KDE code in case it’s really a coding fault.
Well thanks for the recommendation. Its a known fact that on an x86 architecture with few extra optimizations using -O2 is stable.
I would try it out……but its 2 time consuming to recompile kde packages all over again using different optimizations (unless i can obtain some binary packages compiled like that). Im sure that nothing different will happen. And im pretty sure that a good deal of the crashing problems that happened in kde 3.4 were resolved in kde 3.4.1 or kde 3.4.2.
Anyways does anyone in fact know if slackware compiles it packages with -O2 optimizations. Since its focused on stability and security, it might already use -O0 but its running -O2 max. Yes I will accept that -O3 is a lil questionable and anything more than that is nuts. But not really -O2. But i guess thats for another discussion.
So did I and it’s not based on gay ass python language.
Wake me up when C has real OO and half the dynamism, power and flexibility of Python. And for the record, I’ve written apps in languages from COBOL, to C, to Java and many more.
By the way, what’s the name of this so-called app you have written, and where can I download it? For someone who spouts so much crap about GNOME, I’d like to take your perfect GNOME application for a spin.
I won’t respond to your other retorts because quite frankly, I’d be wasting my time if I did.
> And for the record, I’ve written apps in languages from
> COBOL, to C, to Java and many more.
I’ve been into programming for nearly 24 years now starting with Zilog80 asm, over to 6502/6510 asm, over to 680×0 asm and later on to powerpc asm. I’ve settled on using C as my primary language because of the portability issues of asm. I also program some Perl, Java, AREXX and am well aware of Bash scripting such as CVSGnome one of the key leading GNOME buildscripts that I wrote and maintain for the past 6 years now. I was also involved into Balsa and Galeon development and contributed quite some stuff to other modules from GNOME as well as a former GNOME foundation member – so I seriously wonder who that unknown person that you seem to be is who has the balls criticising and personally attacking me in the public.
You can find a bunch of things on my website. Some of them are open source and others not (depending due to the different philosphies that I share and the fact that some of the stuff has been written long before the open source movement got that known). I am also maintainer of the dc395x SCSI driver inside the 2.6.x Linux Kernel tree.
Atlantis for GNOME and MorphOS (its also mentioned on the GTK-Webcore site of Nokia)
http://www.akcaagac.com/index_atlantis.html
CVSGnome:
http://www.akcaagac.com/index_cvsgnome.html
A well awarded GNOME buildscript that has been reviewed here on OSNews.com, Arstechnica, LinuxPlanet and APCmag
Stratagus:
http://www.amigafuture.de/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=369
Some of my ports got an own article on some known Amiga magazines there is also a VIM article for my MorphOS port but there is no article online. You can read more on my webpage: http://www.akcaagac.com/
Rising High Monitor for Amiga:
http://www.akcaagac.com/index_risinghigh.html
Is some sort of Linice or Actionreplay in case you can handle these names. It’s entirely written in 680×0 asm language and primarily makes usage of hardware programming. This piece of art which costs me more than 1.5 years of my life features, assembler, disassembler, debugger, memwatcher, tracer, breakpoints, trainer, copperlist ripper, musik ripper, image ripper, calculator and many other features (look at the screenshots). If you can come up with something on your own then I start taking you serious.
There are a lot of other stuff I made public just for the sake of it such as found under the following link.
http://www.akcaagac.com/index_tools.html
A lot of Bash scripts, ARexx code, some C stuff and primarily 680×0 assembly language written code, tools and fragments of routines and functions, even some legendary amiexpress doors (for those who have a use of that name).
Greetings!
I don’t give a shit who you are or what you’ve written, but you spout a lot crap about GNOME, many of which are plain lies. A good example is the silly toolbar comments which are just all wrong. It makes you look like you don’t know what you are talking about. And people who have little or no knowledge about how the GNOME frameworks work can easily be mislead by your FUDs, which of course is your goal, for some sick reasons.
Oh and you need to fix the installation procedure for Atlantis. It’s really broken. Users shouldn’t be playing with gconf or login in and out to launch the browser for the first time. That turned me off.
> I don’t give a shit who you are or what you’ve written.
If I recall correctly it was you who asked me for the stuff I’ve written. So why do you act like a moron now ?
> but you spout a lot crap about GNOME, many of which
> are plain lies.
Care to explain where I lied ?
> A good example is the silly toolbar comments which
> are just all wrong.
What was wrong about the toolbar issue ? I mean everyone with brains can test the same stuff on their own machines.
> It makes you look like you don’t know what you are
> talking about. And people who have little or no
> knowledge about how the GNOME frameworks work can
> easily be mislead by your FUDs.
I think you are the one here who don’t know anything about the GNOME framework, but then you are just hacking along a silly editor in python while we already have Gedit which is much more powerful. Do you have users for your tools ?
> Oh and you need to fix the installation procedure for
> Atlantis. It’s really broken. Users shouldn’t be
> playing with gconf or login in and out to launch the
> browser for the first time. That turned me off.
a) I don’t need to fix anything,
b) I write my stuff for my own needs,
c) I don’t owe you or anyone else unaccountable of what I do.
d) 0.1.4 don’t suffer from the things you said but it’s not released.
As a user, and a developer Im happy with Novell’s desition too, I live in a poor country where I couln’t pay for a Qt license (and like me there are many), Giving support to GNOME is giving the chance to me and others who can’t pay for an expensive license.
Thank you Novell.
I like fluxbox.
mandrake will be the next one to switch over to gnome as all the others are doing.
It’s a bit early to be saying something like that, besides Mandriva just finished purchasing Lycoris and all their stuff was KDE based.
Not every distribution is going Gnome, it’s not like Gnome is really universally better than KDE. The reason Novell is going Gnome is because they’re aiming for corporate customers, those corporate customers preffer Gnome because there’s no Qt and no Qt licensing issues. With a GTK based desktop environment companies can have internal apps written, and then can distribute them later without having to worry about distributing source code, that isn’t the case with Qt unless they also want to buy a very expensive license.
I really do like KDE and used to use and like Qt, but I have to say that Trolltech is crazy with their pricing and that is what is hitting KDE so hard.
Is it just me or is the KDE irc channel getting more users. The past 2 days the amount of people increased immense. We had up to 280 people in the channel. Now if that doesn’t speak for itself. The support from users is great.
“The problem is that KDE lacks so much in the usability and accessability department that it doesn’t make up for the better development process in KDE.”
i think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. kde may well have a better framework than gnome. but gnome is significantly more usable, more attractive to look at in its basic state, and with applications that have a more intuitive interface. these are things that matter most to the end user. kde has a lot of catching up to do in these areas.
I do enjoy both KDE and Gnome, but Gnome has a leg up on keeping the UI simplistic.
I look forward to more KDE usability and GUI restructuring in the future.
Any true Linux user would realize that the desktop can be changed at one’s whim. Gnome –> KDE –> XFCE –> Blackbox –> back to Gnome–> etc. This is not Microsoft where you are pretty much tied to one desktop ALL THE TIME. The drama over this is sad…
Have the recent Novell decisions aroiund SuSE and their recent lay-offs effected your purchasing decisions?
Effected mine … bought the last three distro’s released … won”t buy another.
“What makes me sad is that I can’t write apps that truly fit into KDE without using Qt (which I do not any more). I would really like to have an alternative toolkit which is still portable across Windows, Linux & Mac OS and yet themes perfectly with KDE and matches the button order. Even if the new toolkit weren’t free or libre that wouldn’t matter to me any more, what would matter is good documentation, good design and a reasonable price.”
i was going to suggest wxQt because ive seen it mentioned before. i typed in wxqt to find the home page and i found it. however, this is what it says for wxqt:
“Are there any efforts to produce a wxQt 2.X?
There are several reasons why this is probably not going to happen. To begin with: most people consider one port for Linux as enough and as long as a wxQt does not match the quality of wxGTK, nobody would use it anyway. We also expect almost all people to use GNOME a few years from now and we have no interest in promoting the use of KDE against that positive trend. Positive, because we don’t see any advantage in having to write programs for two versions of Linux.”
http://www.freiburg.linux.de/~wxxt/issues.html
i dont know how old the site is and when it was last updated though, so maybe they have made a qt port now.
I don’t think wxWidgets could use Qt as a front end without running into license problems again. Linking with GPL software requires that the software linking with it be under the GPL license as well. There’s no way around this that I know of.
Linking with GPL software requires that the software linking with it be under the GPL license as well.
nope. kde libs link to qt but they are lgpl.
“What makes me sad is that I can’t write apps that truly fit into KDE without using Qt (which I do not any more). I would really like to have an alternative toolkit which is still portable across Windows, Linux & Mac OS and yet themes perfectly with KDE and matches the button order. …
Maybe once solution will be pyQt. So far I understand, pyQt != pyKDE.
http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pyqt/index.php
about time Novel did something like this with , i havent exactly liked Suse Because of the orientation with KDE look at feel in GNOME,
First, I wrote very large comment, how GNOME is better, etc. etc.
(Disclaimer: I am GNOME user for four years, and love progress and iniciatives of Ximian and Novell)
But, then I thought all about this and went to try to understand – why such outrage? One point is clear – SuSE was very big sponsor of KDE and now there is going to be less money for that. That I understand – If they have been fired all Ximian team (and I don’t agree that Ximian was just empty dose, Evolution, Mono, lot of integration stuff – it makes sence, they are NOT stupid, and they can create income for Novell – in many ways), I would certainly feel the same.
But do I judge Novell? No, because they should do that. It was clearly painful choice – and they weren’t ignorant about that. I even think that it wasn’t easy choice in the eyes of Ximian team too – because in my opinion, they don’t just be in war with KDE community. Actually, what I have seen that GNOME guys seems to want work more on common ground – desktop standards, D-BUS, HAL, etc. such things. However, KDE team looks for doing things their *own* way – and it is ok for that, but is is somehow childish. For example, KDE officially won’t support gstreamer – there are some excelent KDE apps who does and will, but KDE just went to doing it in their own turf again. Why? Reading Gstreamer, everything is done to assure desktop envorement independence – gstreamer is NOT depend on ANY GNOME/GTK+ lib.
As from my point of view, I see that KDE guys was in the first place. They were best, they had most brainshare, they were “Unix desktop #1” – because most Linux desktop users where power users and hackers. However, times has changed and now Linux user base are consists more of common users, which, _in my opinion_, more preffer simplicity of GNOME. So, problem is there – is KDE are ready to change and finally accept GNOME (and drop the stupid and childish trolls, modded insightful or interesting, claiming that GNOME is error, stupid, Novell will die, etc.) as viable brother _or_ they will continue claim that they are wholy one?
In resume, I would like to say – I would like to see both desktops to stay and improve AND provide choice for many of new Linux users which will sure come. Let’s not claim death of Novell, let’s say – there should new coorporate desktop of KDE arise. Kubuntu could be good start for some company to create Kumbuntu Enterprise Desktop.
Let’s go with peace, brothers – and improve things in our backyards.
You’ve got it all wrong. GNOME has since day one been about whining about qt’s “evil” and “non-free” license, and the clique around it as been trying to backstab kde and it’s users and backers in any form possible ever since. Read up, and you’ll find out that they are little more than bullshitters and backstabbers with a project that’s a total mess.
> The clique around it as been trying to backstab kde and
> it’s users and backers in any form possible ever since.
> Read up, and you’ll find out that they are little more
> than bullshitters and backstabbers with a project
> that’s a total mess.
You are fully correct here. In the past six years of my contributions towards GNOME I made the same experience with that stuff. As sad as it sounds not only KDE is affected here but also competitors (competition projects) amongst GNOME who get this to feel. Even if you as developer want to contribute to GNOME you are under permanent attack, you receive nothing else than huge diffamation, attacks, namecalling, slandering and so on. This drives people away from contributing to GNOME.
Most developers around GNOME are some sort of having found themselves in “groups” they usually block every contribution from outside and usually declare valid and good stuff as stupid, silly or as troll attempt. This is quite frustrating for people who want to contribute. The attempt to contribute something towards GNOME is a very stone way and usually leads to frustrations at the end.
The best thing for contributors is to do the dirt work. The leftovers which the GNOME developers don’t want to work on. Like writing documentations, doing the translations and so on. But as soon as it goes to normal bugfixes for bugs that are known for years these bugreports stay in bgo without attention. If you happen to have some time please head over to bgo and have a look on your own and you see how many bugs have been left there without attention. No comments, not even a feedback why the bug has been rejected or what was wrong with it.
Totally impossible is it as soon as you want to contribute some sort of features (because you reject working on the dirty leftovers or the simple patches that no one gives a f–k for). Working on features is usually the fun part of contributing. You are then directed to put your patches on bgo with comments like “we will have a look at that later” and then it stays there without any feedback for years. They are not interested to get new people helping that project.
For example, KDE officially won’t support gstreamer
If you mean KDE4, there is no decision about a default backend for KDEMM yet.
If you mean KDE3 you might want to check the release date for KDE3.0 and Gstreamers first release
“But, then I thought all about this and went to try to understand – why such outrage? One point is clear – SuSE was very big sponsor of KDE and now there is going to be less money for that. That I understand – If they have been fired all Ximian team (and I don’t agree that Ximian was just empty dose, Evolution, Mono, lot of integration stuff – it makes sence, they are NOT stupid, and they can create income for Novell – in many ways), I would certainly feel the same.”
Well, it now seems Novell sacks more Gnome devs than KDE devs (just one KDE dev, and several Gnome devs) so I guess i have to feel sorry for you 😉
“Actually, what I have seen that GNOME guys seems to want work more on common ground – desktop standards, D-BUS, HAL, etc. such things. However, KDE team looks for doing things their *own* way – and it is ok for that, but is is somehow childish. For example, KDE officially won’t support gstreamer – there are some excelent KDE apps who does and will, but KDE just went to doing it in their own turf again. Why? Reading Gstreamer, everything is done to assure desktop envorement independence – gstreamer is NOT depend on ANY GNOME/GTK+ lib.”
you seem to have missed some things. KDE doesn’t want to standardize on Gstreamer for several, very valid, reasons. first, it can’t be garanteed Gstreamer wil stay api/abi compattible through the full KDE 4 series. and this is a requirement. next, Gstreamer is not real-time capable. and last but not least, it isn’t very network-transparant. so KDE will create a intermediate layer that WILL stay api stable, and default to gstreamer. but pro audio users will be able to use jack, NMS and others. (i know i don’t have ALL facts strait here, too, but i’m to lazy to look it up…)
point is, the childish one here is more likely to be gnome – replace gstreamer in your story with aRts and we have the situation a few years ago. except aRts was once much more advanced than every other sound server, independend of KDE/Qt – but because KDE started to use it, gnome choose a technologically inferior esound. now esound sucked so hard, they had to jump on the gstreamer wagon while gstreamer was still very unstable – while KDE had the luxury of a relatively better sound server (aRts) so they could wait a little more.
Ok guys take a look at this kde app
http://kat.mandriva.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_…
and now the Gnome (Ximianized) app
http://img496.imageshack.us/img496/5360/screenshot1fh.png
Why Novell choosen Gnome ?
now you know why
Because KDE design sucks, too many colors, unpolished made by people without art skills
Before complaining about KDE, yet I haven’t found a good full complete theme for GNOME. All the artwork found on art.gnome.org as well as gnome-look.org are unpleasing to look at, the icons are looking bad, wallpapers look bad and you don’t find anything matching.
For KDE I primarily go with the fefault plastik setup and nuvola icons. This setup feels like its made and waiting specially for being used inside KDE.
Besides that a MONO application can not be considered a GNOME application. MONO only happen to have provided GTK# bindings so their default interface uses GTK+ but thats almost all. MONO still isn’t a requirement nor part of GNOME and you will see hell freeze the day MONO gets part of GNOME, we will see another topic on OSN saying that MONO is part of GNOME and you see a comment section that passes the 250 comments barrier because of this (which in effect means another at least 200 users more for KDE).
Why gnome sucks more: Too many totally lame lusers – most without any brains, apparently.
“Because KDE design sucks, too many colors, unpolished made by people without art skills
”
You sound very intelligent! You must be one of those JoeSixpacks that Gnome tries very hard to attract with their dumb-down DE. I don’t ever want to see people with your intellect using KDE because then I would have to look for another DE to use.
I know it’s a matter of taste where you cannot wrangle about but I think quite the opposite:
I don’t know anyone who likes the standard Gnome stock icons. They look very outdated, unsharp, too complex – see the stripes at the help icons which are and some childish – see GConf editor icon – in my point of view.
The new Tango icons look better but still do not have the quality like Crystal or Nuvola icons. The perspectives are not correct – see the battery icon – nor are the colors consistent – see log out button and new contact etc. The log out button for example was completely taken from the old Gnome stock icons and is very outdated and not very friendly to look at: if I log out i don’t want to step in a dark room…
Show the KDE icons and the Gnome icons to some professional designers and I’m sure most of them will say that the KDE icons are more professional than the Gnome icons.
And your point is? Some UI stuff for you. What exactly does “reveal” mean? I suspect that it means “show file information” or something similar, but it’s not very clear. “Refine” – Again, not a word I’d use. “Find now”. You don’t really need to use the word ‘now’ in all honesty. By clicking on the ‘find’ button, you’re expecting it to start searching as soon as you click on it! UI isn’t just about how the windows look, how you interact with the windows visually, clutter/unclutter, etc, etc. Using the right label idenfication, etc, is also very important. I almost get the impression that the various labels in this example were originally designed for a non English language, and then very badly translated into English.
Dave
Ah, nice troll.
So you think comparing a KDE app with an interface that even the developers admit is terrible and that they are working on fixing in the next version, with the mockup of a new frontend for beagle, that doesn’t exist yet apart from a development version in cvs is a great idea?
Wow.
But I _clearly_ don’t get WHY is there such FLAME war? First, it is not quite clear what Novell will do. AFAIK Novell choses GNOME as default desktop BUT will provide KDE envorement as well. So WHERE is problem? Because of choice? Because GNOME gets more attention?
This is very big problem with Linux _desktop_ community and it is such flame wars. WHY?
We should work TOGETHER for future. But all you winning is all – ohhh ahh Novell is dying, GNOME sucks, oh well, KDE sucks too.
GET OVER IT!
Jesus Christ. Just. Stop. It.
Comparative study of various vendors’ business decisions:
Redhat:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy
Sun:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy
HP:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Unix desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Unix
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy
Eazel:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy
UserLinux:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy
Anyone else seeing a common pattern here?
Probably Mark Shuttleworth does. He’s a smart guy. He embraced KDE and encouraged Kubuntu to take off. He now uses KDE/Kubuntu on his personal desktop [ http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php ].
I’m sure this man already thinks how he can take advantage of the stupidity displayed by Novell management in chopping KDE and betting their careers on Gnome.
The Ubuntu suite of offerings is starting to become really sweet — rock-solid servers based on Debian, Gnome/Ubuntu as well as KDE/Kubuntu offerings for desktops, workstations and thin clients — and it is going to be ready to enter the enterprise market very soon too. (And in my definintion of “enterprise”, it is not only the top 500, but most important the Small and Medium Businesses (SMB), where Linux stands the best chances to be adopted by the owners, as well as supported by small IT professional service providers.)
Care to explain where I lied ?
Sure, I’ll point one of your numerous attempts.
Ali wrote:
If the GTK+ toolbar object was designed correctly then it would allow us to do this (out of the object itself)
a) describe whether we want handles or not (to drag the toolbar out of the app or align it horizontally, vertically, at the bottom or the top or inside other toolbar elements)
b) allows us to globally set the icon size (as KDE offers this possibility by right clicking on the toolbar object)
c) allows us to globally edit the toolbar and save the results in a configuration file so it stays permanent.
d) react on global changes set through control center.
If you have actually really written a GNOME application as opposed to copying and pasting code of the internet, you’d know GKT+ allows you to do all these.
What was wrong about the toolbar issue ? I mean everyone with brains can test the same stuff on their own machines.
What’s wrong is that it is stupid for all toolbars to have the same attributes because different applications are constrained by different needs. Something your 24 years of programming should have made obvious to you.
I think you are the one here who don’t know anything about the GNOME framework, but then you are just hacking along a silly editor in python while we already have Gedit which is much more powerful. Do you have users for your tools ?
Scribes is one of my pet GNOME projects. And yes, it is has a lot of features that Gedit doesn’t have it will have more. And yes, I do have a community of users with thousands of downloads. And for someone who doesn’t know shit about how the GTK+ toolbar class/objects work, you have a lot of nerves questioning my knowledge about GNOME. I don’t claim to be a GURU, but even a toddler knows GTK+ allows you to do everything you say it doesn’t. Quit copying and pasting code from other projects, and actually go read the GTK+ manual sometime.
a) I don’t need to fix anything,
b) I write my stuff for my own needs,
c) I don’t owe you or anyone else unaccountable of what I do.
d) 0.1.4 don’t suffer from the things you said but it’s not released.
This is the same person who tells everyone GNOME developers are jerks, don’t fix bugs in their software and don’t listen to users. It is worthless wasting my time with you. Good day.
> What’s wrong is that it is stupid for all toolbars to
> have the same attributes because different applications
> are constrained by different needs. Something your 24
> years of programming should have made obvious to you.
You still don’t get the point ! Are you doing this on purpose ?
> This is the same person who tells everyone GNOME
> developers are jerks, don’t fix bugs in their software
> and don’t listen to users.
Not all are jerks but the majority are – from my past 6 years where I tried to contribute to GNOME I happen to came to this conclusion. Besides that my application is not part of the GNOME desktop. You know the desktop that is ready for “corporate” needs but lack basic features. I didn’t hang a sign around my neck saying “Atlantis is ready for corporate” because I know it’s not but GNOME did hang out that sign for years and they deserve what they get.
About the jerk issue again, If you happen to have dealt with GNOME developers, like contributing patches, trying to innovate, or simply try to come up with own ideas then you know what I talk about. Most of the shit they tell you is either ignorance, telling you to put everything you have on bgo so they don’t need to talk with you and forget about your bugreports or if you happen to have some really good ideas it’s being talked to death or your ideas are being turned into a troll attempt. Hell god know’s how many contributors GNOME lost in the past years due to that very bad attitude. You seem to be one of those people whom working with should really be avoided.
Calling the majority of gnome developers jerks wont get you anywhere. You dont know the process by which they move foward and how much information and request they get daily.
It would sound a bit more professional…..and more reflective of having 24 years of programming experience, if u criticized their development model or process, rather then calling the developers flat out jerks.
Personally I find it better then how KDE does things. I dont like how things seem to change spontaneously and randomly. And how things are introduced slowly. I aint gonna say its a bad model…..because some people like it. Its just that I dont. Meanwhile you are giving the vibe that gnome this sucks and gnome that sucks. I might come off like you, but im going to say thats immature.
Look, when I started to help out GNOME around 1999 or so I defiantely didn’t came and called the people “jerks”. This has been grown out over the long time of six years. I have never been treated like a piece of shit as I was when trying to help GNOME to help shape GNOME, to be part of it. But I had to deal with ignorants, hardheaded people, egoists and a lot of people who are incapable to work together with others.
Even if you as developer want to contribute to GNOME you are under permanent attack, you receive nothing else than huge diffamation, attacks, namecalling, slandering and so on. This drives people away from contributing to GNOME.
Most developers around GNOME are some sort of having found themselves in “groups” they usually block every contribution from outside and usually declare valid and good stuff as stupid, silly or as troll attempt. This is quite frustrating for people who want to contribute. The attempt to contribute something towards GNOME is a very stone way and usually leads to frustrations at the end.
The best thing for contributors is to do the dirt work. The leftovers which the GNOME developers don’t want to work on. Like writing documentations, doing the translations and so on. But as soon as it goes to normal bugfixes for bugs that are known for years these bugreports stay in bgo without attention. If you happen to have some time please head over to bgo and have a look on your own and you see how many bugs have been left there without attention. No comments, not even a feedback why the bug has been rejected or what was wrong with it.
Totally impossible is it as soon as you want to contribute some sort of features (because you reject working on the dirty leftovers or the simple patches that no one gives a f–k for). Working on features is usually the fun part of contributing. You are then directed to put your patches on bgo with comments like “we will have a look at that later” and then it stays there without any feedback for years. They are not interested to get new people helping that project.
Now I hope you may imagine why I don’t have very good words left for GNOME. Sure not everyone is guilty not everyone is an ass or behaves like that, but you need to take my apology that I stopped separating the good ones from the bad ones. I am seriously tired doing this.
Ok thats understandable.
I know that I like gnome and gtk better and I like its apps better than KDE/Qt.
In turn, that means I like the process by which they got to where they are at atm.
IP: 84.129.237,
i’m curious. what made you choose GNOME in the first place? what were your reasons at that time for choosing GNOME as opposed to the alternatives?
Good riddance to your arrogant developers and zealot supporters. You have reaped what you sowed.
Anyone that wants to depend on corporate sales for a living is not going to succeed. Corporations want the lowest TCO. Period. Your chances of earning a profit is slim to none. Best to point your marketeers at niches.
It’s Ubuntus’ success….BUT wait…See Novels’ history..they have great records… 🙂
When you look at Windows, you see a lot of products developed for it integrating seamlessly with the desktop. This is all the more important in the corporate setting, where third parties develop software solutions around Microsoft products.
Now, with a KDE desktop, the GPL licensing stops any kind of integration with third-party tools, unless the software vendor decides to GPL too. And we know, this might not be the right business model, in particular for small software houses, because you’re throwing your source code in the open, and big corporations have big IT departments, and your support model then is obliterated.
If you want people to come in and write software “around” the desktop and principal applications, you need to let go of the GPL. OpenOffice.org, for instance, recently has realized this too, changin the license to LPGL. The GNOME desktop has a license that is non-viral. Thus, it makes a lot more sense in the corporate setting.
It is alright to mix proprietary and FOSS software. In fact, this might even be a sine qua non if FOSS is ever to succeed. The very core of systems need to be open source. What revoles around this core, particular in the applications domain, may or may not be. That’s all right. We’re now seeing people realize the GPL might not be the best option in some circunstances. This is something the BSD camp always understood, and I hope to see more people eventually come grips with the realization that the LGPL and BSDL make a hell of a lot more sense in a business setting, or if if you’re a an ISV, than the GPL.
Please read up on KDEs licenses before you speak…
http://kdemyths.urbanlizard.com/mythTopic.php?topic=10
KDElibs are under LGPL, BSD and MIT licenses, it is true that you have to buy a commercial license to Qt if you want to write closed source.
The QPL allows you to link non-GPL open source applications against Qt. Qt (open source edition) is under dual license, QPL/GPL.
It is simply not true that you are forced to use GPL with KDE and Qt.
From everything I’ve read over the past few years it seems KDE has about 60 to 70% of the linux desktop market. I know I started out using Gnome and switched to KDE about somewhere around 3.0 with SuSE 8.
I always install Gnome and give it try every few weeks thinking maybe I’m missing something but in my opinion it just does not compare to KDE 3.4. Part of it is speed, part of it is control and customizability, and a lot of it is just the look and feel of the desktop.
Despite the best efforts of OS developers, Sun, Red Hat, etc. Gnome remains a fairly primitive desktop environment with as an interface almost as dull in appearance as CDE. I mean, I’m an American, but apparently it mostly only Europeans who can clearly see that KDE is better, has more features, is easier to customize, etc. Now that Suse belongs to Novell, they’re going to screw it up just like many of us said when they first bought it. But only after , of course, they raised the prize dramatically. Novell should have stuck to Netware because that’s all they know. It’s half their fault we have the whole mess with SCO.