There is kind of a stir in the Amiga community. As Hyperion employees explained in an IRC chat, Hyperion suffers from a lack of hardware for the development (and thus sales) of AmigaOS4. However, what about Genesi? Genesi is the company behind the ODW, a PPC workstation that could potentially be the solution to Hyperion’s lack-of-hardware problems. However, friction between the two companies is preventing them from coming to an agreement. More from the community here, and here. My take: I find this a rather silly situation. It is quite clear that Genesi is one of the few companies capable of offering a steady flow of PPC hardware for the AmigaOS, yet things in the past are preventing a financially interesting cooperation. And who suffer? Exactly– Amiga fans.
There are a staggering number of x86/i386 computers out there, almost no non apple PPCs. Do the math. Hyperion is trying to solve the _wrong_ problem.
>There are a staggering number of x86/i386 computers out there, almost no non apple PPCs. Do the math. Hyperion is trying to solve the _wrong_ problem.
There are however a stupidly large number of configurations that x86 PCs can take – only a large company like Microsoft or an open-source effort (e.g. Linux) can have a chance of supporting most PC systems. If Hyperion ported OS4 to a specific set of hardware, then most people with x86 computers still wouldn’t be able to use it.
But you could then easely pick the combo supported by Hyperion… Most of the problem arises also when supporting a multitude of graphic, sound, ect… chipsets
>”There are however a stupidly large number of configurations that x86 PCs can take”
This is true – however there are standards there are only a finite number of combinations
> “only a large company like Microsoft or an open-source effort (e.g. Linux) can have a chance of supporting most PC systems.”
Not true. If you draw the line – let’s say you pick the baseline systems – for our example Dell, HP, Gateway, Apple, Sony and you support lets say models after 2001 the number of hardware you need to support goes down.
> “If Hyperion ported OS4 to a specific set of hardware, then most people with x86 computers still wouldn’t be able to use it.”
True – people are not inclined to buy new hardware if their current hardware works for them. example: I am a mac user – it works for me – I want some games which exist on windows – I am not inclined to go out an buy an x86 dell,hp,gateway,whatever to run it – I can do without it that is why I stick to apple. Now with apple going x86 – chances are that I will be able to VMware the environement and run the software that I need to run – Amiga, Inc should just port the darned thing over to x86. Emulators for pre 4.0 already exist
Unlike Apple there is not a closed memory protected environment for the OS to be ported from big-endian to little-endian processors easily. There was an Intel port for AmigaOS 3.9 called Amithlon that ran quite fast but it had to convert endians of every write cycle and read cycle all of the time to even run. AROS runs on Intel and I think that is as close as anybody’s going to get to an Intel-based Amiga.
Personally, I think Amiga, Inc. should ditch their AmigaAnywhere and start planning to port all of their old software to LLVM. That way they can get a static compile of their programs at install time and still get decent emulation of the past systems.
As someone who has watched this ridiculous situation from the sidelines, it seems that Amiga Inc. will not liscense the operating system for a Pegasos port, nor will Hyperion do one. This might be tethered to Hyperions connection with EyeTech, the maker of the AmigaOne. I have a feeling EyeTech would not want to lose any part of the (small) Amiga PC market.
If you would like to read more, AmigaWorld forums is the best place to start. There are over 100 threads on this specific topic, often leading only to Amiga v. MorphOS v. AROS fights that accomplish nothing.
It is quite sad to see such an imaginative, filled with potential OS be hindered by bickering.
It is quite sad to see such an imaginative, filled with potential OS be hindered by bickering.
That is exactly my problem. The only way the Amiga scene will ever grow and expand, is by setting aside past differences, and work, together, to a common goal.
Now, they are destroying whatever’s left of the Amiga scene. And that’s just plain said.
The problem is hardly Genesi. They have made mistakes, but earned their stripes. Freescale and IBM are Genesi customers, not to mention the companies that buy the ODW to have a PowerPC host/target development environment. This bbrv blog made the most sense to me:
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2005/12/every-developer-needs-desktop.html
So get it right Dark Leth. There are plenty of communities using this hardware, including Sun!
http://www.blastware.org
Rasmus
Get it right? Could you have not guessed, from the context of the post, that the title was an error? It was supposed to read as following: No, the problem is not Genesi.
My apologies, but please calm down in your retorts. I thought I made it clear that I thought that the problem was with Hyperion/Amiga Inc.
Whoops, my apologies to you!
Rasmus
If someone, Say a New Car salesman, spent considerable time, effort and resources trying to destroy all that you are and you escaped by the skin of you teeth would you then buy a car off him regardless of the price or deal he offered you ?
ETHICS DO MATTER !!
Don’t forget that Genesi isn’t thining of selling anything here. They’re opening up the design of the Pegasos/ODW for anyone who joins Power.org. A hardware developer would need to get the specs, stick on a firmware (how about UBoot?), organise a port of OS4 and production. Genesi wouldn’t have anything to do with the operation – it’s not a case of selling “Pegasos” systems, and I rather suspect that trademark issues would prevent the producer using that name anyway.
As far as I know the design will be released under a completely free license – not even GPL-style clauses about keeping derived designs open – Genesi have nothing to gain directly. I do think that they have some sort of an interest in this however. The more people who build PowerPC-based systems, the more viable the platform as a whole will appear, which will help their own offerings. x86 only succeeded due to the wide availablity of clones, and this could be seen as a means to pre-empt that.
Regarding Genesi, I’d lovce to purchase kit off them, if they offered a PPC970 kit for the great unwashed masses out there – couple that with their helping FreeBSD, Solaris and Linux getting up to speed with performance on these machines, I’d love to purchase one.
The problem is, however, when you’re charging a small fortune for a G4 based processor/motherboard, and even the novelty value cannot justify the extra-expense, little wonder things aren’t working out too rosey.
The problem isn’t lack of hardware. For a PPC desktop OS such as AmigaOS4 the obvious choices are Macs and Pegasoses, and those aren’t lacking.
The problem is the idiotic deal between Amiga Inc., Hyperion (the OS developers) and Eyetech (a hardware dealer) which artificially limits the number of hardware options.
AmigaOS 4 needs hardware. Hardware doesn’t need AmigaOS 4.
The simple and obvious solution would be for AInc/Hyperion to make and sell their OS for the hardware that people own or want to own. But we can’t have something simple and obvious, can we… We’ve got to pretend that there’s a need for “Amiga hardware” (hardware re-sold under a licensed trademark through a limited licensed dealership on a tiny, restricted pseudo-market at up to 60% higher prices).
Read more at:
http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk
>The simple and obvious solution would be for
>AInc/Hyperion to make and sell their OS for the hardware
>that people own or want to own.
They already have their OS for hardware that I own, and the hardware I myself want to own doesn’t exist right now, from ANY vendor. That’s a very subjective thing there.
Yes, Peg2 may be a step up from my AmigaOne XE. But it’s still many steps behind what I want.
You gotta be kidding. If not, what made you think I was referring to you, billt, or indeed the total pathetic number of “AmigaOne” owners?
This is a thread about the constructed lack of hardware for AmigaOS to run on. That it will run on “dead” products such as “AmigaOnes” or Amigas (or “PowerVixxens” or “Amy ’05s”) is not a solution to that problem, it’s a symptom.
In case I failed to make myself clear, you could substitute the part of my post saying “hardware that people own or want to own” with the synonymous “more popular, better and cheaper hardware”. This means Macs and Pegasos 2’s, as we’re bound to PPC options.
“It is quite clear that Genesi is one of the few companies capable of offering a steady flow of PPC hardware for the AmigaOS”
Not so IMHO, Genesi do NOT have a good reputation for delivering hardware (be it on time or in any form of quality).
They had horrible problems with the Pegasos I which they balmed on the Mai northbridge (which has since been proven by Eyetech to have NO DMA issues – there were some issues with the Via southbrdige which both companies use due to the lack of available docs from Via). They then acted very imatureley (sp) slating Mai in public and released tthe April “fix” which seemed to fix nothing (correct me if I am wrong – this is what I heard from a “blue” site)
They then released the Peg II which has been selling well and had respectable specs but has seen no update and is now starting to look as dated as the AmigaOne/Terron (which has at elast seen a form factor shrink etc.)
There was the whole OpenBSD debacle as well as that with ShopIP over the Guardian/Crunch Box and then then the whole dispute with some of the MorphOS devs
The OpenFirmware implementation for the Peg II is bug ridden according to the OpenBSD (and other?) devs
There is also the promissed blades and PPC970 designs which never arrived (and apparently never will)
They have however been very succesfull with the ODW and that is something which they deserve much credit for. As does the EPKA board which is an incredible feat of engineering.
If you take away all of the public statements etc. of BBRV which just seem to detract from Genesi and sweep tthe OpenBSD, ShopIP, MorrphOS and other such issues under the carpet Genesi have been very sucesfull, particullarly given the cirrcumstances and can be excused for being over zeolours in announcing products which theey could not bring to market for whatever reasson (it is better to scrap the project thatn run it at a loss over time or release something which ruins your reputation due to being low quality and buggy!)
I think you are nothing more than the digital troll of sunday morning.
And it is proven by the fact that this is your single one post…
…and even your name sound trollish.
Unfortunately for you, now OSNews does not allow Anonymous posting.
I ask moderators to monitor this post from you and other posts which could follow, and (just in case) eventually to take actions against you.
Now it is up to your statements:
>>>
It is quite clear that Genesi is one of the few companies capable of offering a steady flow of PPC hardware for the AmigaOS”
>>>
Seems so…
>>>
Not so IMHO, Genesi do NOT have a good reputation for delivering hardware (be it on time or in any form of quality).
>>>
Genuine uninformed nice attempt to spread manure on us amigans.
Regarding quality, you are true.
Pegasos machines broke as usual for any kind of computer on the market…
And at Genesi also they repair and fix broken hardware on the fly honouring well their warranty
(and more ***with no cost shipping***) 😉
Here the witness of one of the satisfied users:
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=…
Here are mine proofs! Where are your proofs, you digitaldisaster coward?
>>>
They had horrible problems with the Pegasos I which they balmed on the Mai northbridge
>>>
And it has been proved by what happened to MAI inc. sued by their partners and design manufacturers by Socle inc.
http://www.oalj.dol.gov/decisions/ALJ/LCA/2005/WAGE_and_HOUR_DIVISI…)_170747_CADEC_SD.PDF
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/calendar.nsf/0/bac39a90f972ea6288…
>>>
They then released the Peg II which has been selling well and had respectable specs
>>>
Your words, not mine…
>>>
but has seen no update and is now starting to look as dated as the AmigaOne/Terron (which has at elast seen a form factor shrink etc.)
>>>
Updates? You are looking for hardware updates? Wait and see. Time will judge.
/ME is waiting for real silicon, and you?
>>>
There was the whole OpenBSD debacle as well
>>>
True.
And both parts (Genesi and OpenBSD team) posted their versions of the facts.
Would you be so kind to post us links to BOTH point of views?
>>>
as that with ShopIP over the Guardian/Crunch Box
>>>
Don’t konw about it… This is new even for me… please tell us.
Gossip. Gossip.
:-O 😉
>>>
and then then the whole dispute with some of the MorphOS devs
>>>
True. And it is true also that there are again two versions of the facts.
Again please post links to *BOTH* sides point of views.
>>>
The OpenFirmware implementation for the Peg II is bug ridden according to the OpenBSD (and other?)
>>>
Come on! Bugs claimed by one of the competitors in a controversial struggle?
I think that you could do it better and would be so kind to bring us proofs by neutral observers.
>>>
There is also the promissed blades and PPC970 designs which never arrived (and apparently never will)
>>>
“ANNOUNCED”… The word in plain english language is ” *ANNOUNCED* for the second quarter of 2006″.
Now you are travelling time and space to bring us news on future products which are not being released yet…
How silly.
I hope you are not a Cassandra prophet, announcing disasters, and that the new machines could be proved as real solid silicon.
>>>
They have however been very succesfull with the ODW and that is something which they deserve much credit for.
>>>
Your words, not mine.
And remember that ODW == Pegasos II
>>>
As does the EPKA board which is an incredible feat of engineering.
>>>
I think you would had saying Efika???
Please document yourself before posting.
>>>
If you take away all of the public statements etc. of BBRV which just seem to detract from Genesi and sweep tthe OpenBSD, ShopIP, MorrphOS and other such issues under the carpet Genesi have been very sucesfull, particullarly given the cirrcumstances and can be excused for being over zeolours in announcing products which theey could not bring to market for whatever reasson
>>>
Lack of money??? No investors??? Tell us.
>>>
(it is better to scrap the project thatn run it at a loss over time or release something which ruins your reputation due to being low quality and buggy!)
>>>
Here is a buggy project (and it costs sure alot) which won the award of “best in show” in Freescale Technology Forum meeting last june 2005…
http://www.pegasosppc.com/homemedia.php
And the award comes from visitors of meeting, and NOT from Freescale itself.
http://www.genesippc.com/press.php?date=20050624
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/display.jsp?nodeId=093623&…
Sure do all visitors who voted considered it buggy and low quality?
They had horrible problems with the Pegasos I …
The Mai northbridge was the source of problems. Why do you think Mai never got any other customers for it apart from Terra Soft, which is now working with Genesi? In any case, at considerable expense Genesi made replacement boards available to buyers of the Pegasos I.
They then released the Peg II which has been selling well and had respectable specs but has seen no update and is now starting to look as dated as the AmigaOne/Terron
The difference being that the Peg II board has actually worked as advertised all along, while the AmigaOne experience has been one of finding workarounds for various hardware problems. In any case this is a moot point. There are no AmigaOnes being produced any more, and none likely to be in the future. Thus the Peg II, while not cutting edge, is at least an efficient, working hardware option for Hyperion, which was BBRV’s point.
There was the whole OpenBSD debacle as well as that with ShopIP over the Guardian/Crunch Box and then then the whole dispute with some of the MorphOS devs
See http://phinixi.com/tiki-index.php?page=OpenBSD-Peg%20Wrap-up for all pertinant public posts on that topic, and note the very significant retractions by former accusers. As for “some of the MorphOS devs,” there have been disputes, no doubt about that, but no full airing of both sides’ arguments. And at least some of the people listed as being owed by Genesi have said they didn’t authorize their names being included. It looks like there’s a credibility problem on that side as well, so be careful about making assumptions based on partial information.
There is also the promissed blades and PPC970 designs which never arrived (and apparently never will)
Projects get tabled routinely and then (sometimes) resurrected when the timing is better or problems are resolved or whatever. Is this really a valid criticism of any company?
They have however been very succesfull with the ODW and that is something which they deserve much credit for.
It’s good to acknowledge that. This seems to be what Genesi wants to leverage.
— Gary
http://www.morphos.net
If someone sooooo good tells me what to do, what’s better for me, and then tells me s/he won’t win a dime, be sure something fishy’s going on…
Mr Ferry wrote:
>>>
http://www.morphos.net
If someone sooooo good tells me what to do, what’s better for me, and then tells me s/he won’t win a dime, be sure something fishy’s going on…
>>>
Well, I just asked mr digitaldisaster who pointed same facts that scares you…
(i.e. Genesi Vs. “Some MorphOS developers”)
…to be so kind to post the points of view from both sides and not ONLY the one by a single contendant in the controversial.
Well. I don’t konw why even this thread started.
Hey Mr. Thom Holwerda… OSNews deals with OSes and their developing, new functions and so on.
It seems to me that it never dealt with hardware problems (at least this site reports with bugs of OS related with hardware)…
…neither OSNews dealt with lack of hardware of ANY OS on the market…
(And this is mostly true for Amiga since the times in which we didn’t have *ANY* hardware…
BUT even in those DARK AGES of Amiga, OSNews was so kind to host Amiga related news.
And we thanks this site for the help which gives to us all amigans!)
Actually Amiga world is splitted in various parties.
1) Amiga INC with AmigaONE produced ON LICENCE by Eyetech with AmigaOS 4.0 developed by Hyperion.
2) Genesi with Pegasos II from bPlan, with MorphOS by MorphOS team.
3) AROS Open Source Amiga OS 3.1 adapted to run on various platforms…
I don’t want to bother you with other viable solutions (Amithlon, WinUAE, RC Drummond UAE, WinFellow, PearPC, etcetera).
Now AmigaONE suffer of problems. TRUE.
Because Eyetech, the producer (under licence) has problems, and mainly beacuse MAI Articia Northbridge used seems not good, and the fact that MAI went down and none has more Articia chips on the market, problems of prices, problems related to amiga fanboys and many other problems.
Had I missed one or more? 😉
Well. SURE! Genesi’s Pegasos could be a solution.
Into Amiga world we users have decided AS USUAL (as a common silent agreement) that we will wait and SEE how things will evolve.
Don’t worry! Amigans share great patience.
We had bear the demise of Commodore and 10 (*TEN*) years of sufference.
News and “wannabe” problems that you evidenced in the news you posted are kind a joke for us amigans.
😀 😀 😀
We have developed iron guts as responce to environment. Such kind of Darwinian Evolution.
But also a Superior Power is blessing us and give us the strenght to resist and stay our ground in Amiga camp, and Our Prays have been attended by the Almighty!
Because:
AFTER TEN YEARS FROM DEMISE OF COMMODORE, NOW WE HAVE TWO DIFFERENT PLATFORMS WITH TWO DIFFERENT OSES.
Not only one, but TWO!
(and we have also a Open Source Multiplatform OS as spare part).
And also new programs and new DLL-libraries born again into Amiga camp almost every day (Ami-NETRadio, CDPlayer, ZoneXplorer, etc., etc., etc.).
Portings from other platforms were made or are under development (Cairo, Blender, GTK+, mPLayer, etc., etc., etc.).
Take a look back into OSNews last weeks. There were lots of Amiga and MorphOS related news.
What a BONANZA!!!
(And this bonanza rises from a plaform considered by other OSes people as quite dead).
If one of the Amiga-like embodiments could vanish, we will not worry anymore!
The other two incarnations of Amiga will replace the void creating by the one which passes…
Think of such a kind of “seven heads Hydra”, or kinda like as ancient Persian Imperial Guard of 3000 years ago “The Immortals”!.
These are my two cents.
Ciao,
Raffaele
Is there any way to get into the new AmigaOS and not have to deal with all this endless political rambling that only a handful of people understand?
Your best bet would probably be Amiga Forever from Cloanto or AROS. You can’t get AmigaOS 4 as it’s not for sale yet.
A MorphOS ODW might meet your needs unless you have a particular attachment to OS4.
https://www.pegasosppc.com/special_odw.php?partner=morphos
$799 for a preinstalled ODW. $50 of that goes to MorphOS, via General Fund at Morphzone Bounties.
Im wondering, whats hot about amiga nowadays? Can somebody explain please? In the 80s/90s amiga platform was very technologically advanced (OCS, multiple dma channels, AGA, multitasking gui os). But in this days of powerful commodity hardware and operating systems – why amiga? Only for the sake of nostalgia?
Browser: Mozilla/4.1 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Symbian OS; Series 60;452) Opera 6.20 [en]
An Anonymous wrote:
>>>
Im wondering, whats hot about amiga nowadays?
>>>
– Responsivity of the OS?
– Programs light in code and compact when recorded into storage media?
(Almost all disks space free for data)
– Efficiency?
– Lower requests of resources?
– Light GUIs (MUI, ReAction, Feelin) and more ->
– more -> light graphical environment that not insist on the OS (as for example Heavy-Weight Absolute Champion XFree86)?
– Script Language (Arexx) TRULY integrated into system and third party programs, and not a curiosity feature like in other OSes?
– No tracking of private infos as in Windows Media Player and similar programs common in other OSes?
– Complete control of the OS by the user (and not the opposite -i.e. the user controlled by the OS as in Windows and MacOS X)?
– No need to became a computer geek to use it professionally as requested by Linux?
– Should I continue?
Those are all good reasons to buy the OS, but what about the hardware? What’s so good about (yet nonexistant) official Amiga hardware? It’s PPC, yes, and I like PPC, but it has a PCI and an AGP bus, an IDE bus, a USB bus, standard RAM, all that sort of things which can be found in x86 PC’s as well. What are the benefits? To my knowledge there aren’t even any custom, high performance chips, which used to be the reason why the Amiga performed so well in 1980s. (Not to say those are needed… and if they aren’t, why create the new board if the only difference is the CPU?)
Is it the fact that the hardware is known from the start, and only a limited set of devices is supported? That’ll make driver developers happy and making the OS a bit more stable easier, but is that all?
@ ALL
However What I am intended in my last post with:
FEVELOPING was DEVELOPING. Just only a typo error. Sorry.
@ W-ber. You wrote:
>>>
Those are all good reasons to buy the OS, but what
about the hardware?
>>>
New OSes run on a limited choice of hardware solutions, but these are more than old LEGACY classic Amiga hardware solutions.
AROS is sure a good choice because it runs on X86 and PPC too.
But it lacks of DRIVERS for PCI cards and AGP, and more (PCI-ex).
Because AROS lacks of developers, there are too few of them. Must increase growth of userbase and base of developers.
>>>
What’s so good about (yet nonexistant) official Amiga hardware?
>>>
Well Pegasos II exists… Why do you believe it is non-exixtant?
AmigaONE could not stand along, because MAI Logic Inc. is dead.
None is producing Articia neither the new IMPROVED Articia P.
Maybe when in the future another firm will collect all intellectual properties of MAI Logic, then production of Articia MAI chip could start again and new AmigaONE could be produced again along when refourbished of a quantity of Articia Chips…
But IS IT NECESSARY?
Pegasos is alread here. It is about to became FIRST OPEN PLATFORM with the design layout released to everyone.
Think of this:
UBOOT and OPEN FIRMWARE are open and based on BSD.
A good little team of two or three software gurus could adapt them to be loaded on Pegasos II open motherboard.
Then it is up to groups of buyers to join…
…and hire a german, or britannic based, or french, or american, or chinese manufacturer specialized in producing little quantities of motherboards to buy their machines, simply by collecting a bounty.
…or even resellers, who have alredy enough funds could hire small production of new OPEN BASED PEGASOS II MOTHERBOARDS, and then put some quantities of it on the market.
Future is SILICON-ON-DEMAND.
I.e. Customers or resellers can hire manufacturers of “little amounts of hardware solutions” to start productions of small amounts of OPEN motherboards.
And Pegasos II OPEN MOTHRBOARD is the first concrete example of it.
>>>
It’s PPC, yes, and I like PPC, but it has a PCI and an AGP bus, an IDE bus, a USB bus, standard RAM, all that sort of things which can be found in x86 PC’s as well. What are the benefits?
>>>
Standard hardware solutions = Low cost for the user to upgrade machines with standard RAM, Standard HDD, and so on.
Do you remember how much it costs to upgrade RAM of Amiga with GVP Inc. modules of memory???
Do you remember how much it costs to develop cards for ZORRO “Amiga Only” standard bus???
>>>
To my knowledge there aren’t even any custom, high performance chips, which used to be the reason why the Amiga performed so well in 1980s.
>>>
High performance chips are the reason because Amiga lost quickly top-of-the-hill ruler position in the market.
Because high performance custom chips are to be re-designed at any advance of the technology, and require new machines and new platforms to be mounted and on which to be fitted to.
That is not economic for the manufacturer itself, and not economic for the buyer who should pay a surplus for the high costs of re-design, high costs to assmble new motherboards, and change its machine at any advance of the technology.
It is good to change an entire motherboard when new connecting solutions raise as standards:
Such as SATA, DDR2 RAM, PCI-express, new form factors such as BTX.
It is not good to change the motheboard when another CPU processor came out, or new graphical chipset raises, or audio chipset (for example multi-monitor solution, DVI connector, new improved pipelines, vector shading, blending, mapping, etc., 32bit depth of video 40 bit depth video, HDTV, Audio AC97, Audio surround, Dolby 3.1, 5.1, 7.1).
In these situations it is very very better only to change CPU daughterboard, AGP card, or PCI card, than build a new Amiga, with new chipset.
This fact does not prevent some manufacturers to build amiga-only AGP, PCI, PCI-express hardware expansion cards or whatever else, capable of made use of Amiga drivers, and its peculiar capabilities to handle the hardware, giving a boost to performances…
And new Amiga motherboards with a mix of proprietary hardware (and new bus standards such as Zorro), and with a mix standard hardware (memories, HDD, PCI-Ex) could born in the future… Who knows?
>>>
(Not to say those are needed… and if they aren’t, why create the new board if the only difference is the CPU?)
>>>
New board intended opposed to old Amiga chipset legacy? New boards opposing X86 Vs. PPC hardware solution?
Please explain that.
Is it the fact that the hardware is known from the start, and only a limited set of devices is supported? That’ll make driver developers happy and making the OS a bit more stable easier, but is that all?
Well Pegasos II exists… Why do you believe it is non-exixtant?
Does AmigaOS 4 run on Pegasos II? I didn’t know that.
Standard hardware solutions = Low cost for the user to upgrade machines with standard RAM, Standard HDD, and so on.
Yes, I know and understand that. However, what do we gain if we buy the new Amiga? More CPU power? More elegant system (hardware-wise)? Better stability? Cheaper price? Better upgradability? Better support? What?
It is not good to change the motheboard when another CPU processor came out, or new graphical chipset raises, or audio chipset
Indeed, that would be odd. Still, it doesn’t answer the question why you couldn’t have custom chips on the add-on cards. The reason why I liked the Amiga fifteen years ago was because of the outstanding features of the AGA chipset. You could, for instance, have multiple different resolutions on the screen at the same time. That’s something you don’t see anymore. I ask again: If the new Amiga hardware has nothing out of the ordinary, no technical gimmicks, why is it worth a buy?
>>>
(Not to say those are needed… and if they aren’t, why create the new board if the only difference is the CPU?)
>>>
New board intended opposed to old Amiga chipset legacy? New boards opposing X86 Vs. PPC hardware solution?
Please explain that.
You’re taking my lines out of context. Let me rephrase:
If the new Amiga hardware has no technical advantage over existing platforms, why create it? Why should we buy it?
Before you jump in, I already answered it with a question in my previous reply: Is it the fact that the hardware is known from the start, and only a limited set of devices is supported? That’ll make driver developers happy and making the OS a bit more stable easier, but is that all?
I’ll leave that Pegasos hype unanswered…
Im wondering, whats hot about amiga nowadays? Can somebody explain please? . . .
Point your browser to
http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=content&task…
for “20 Features of AmigaOS4.0”!
. . and to
http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=content&task…
for “20 Reasons why AmigaOS4.0 such a great experience for the user:!
Hyperion explains it best.
“They had horrible problems with the Pegasos I which they balmed on the Mai northbridge (which has since been proven by Eyetech to have NO DMA issues – there were some issues with the Via southbrdige which both companies use due to the lack of available docs from Via)”
The Articia norhtbridge does not keep the cache coherent, which has been convirmed by many authorities (including Eyetech, OS4 developers and others). By some of them it was called a “feature”, by some it was called a “bug”. OS4 developers “fix” this bug by flushing caches before and after each BusMaster DMA transmission.
The truth is, however that according to Articia developer manual, this northbridge contains a unit which is (or should be at least) responsible for keeping caches coherent. And this unit does not do what it is expected to.
Call it a feature, but for me (and many others) it is clearly a HARDWARE BUG. I’m not sure whether I am allowed to tell in public more than this, but I know what I have read in the Artitia developer manual.
They had horrible problems with the Pegasos I which they balmed on the Mai northbridge (which has since been proven by Eyetech to have NO DMA issues – there were some issues with the Via southbrdige which both companies use due to the lack of available docs from Via)
The April hardware fix might be (I’m speculating here) trying to keep caches coherent, at least at some niveau.
Very true and very funny!
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2006/01/unblog.html
Rasmus
Solutions to the hardware situation are already being worked on. For instance there’s the Troika project, ACK project and OS4-beta is already running on an unspecified PDA.
Years ago AmigaOS4 was already announced for bPlan’s Pegasos hardware and yet unreleased Elbox hardware. bPlan changed their mind at the time.
In addition the final release will become available as a standalone product for classic BlizzardPPC and CyberstromPPC hardware.
OS4 middle to long run support for the Peg2 is still an option, just like running OS4 on higher specced Apple hardware (cool laptops…).
Also the AmigaOS4 website states:
http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/
“migaOS4.0 targets the PowerPC family of processors. It runs on the full PowerPC range, from the low-end 4xx series appropriate for information appliances and cell phones, up to the 9xx series appropriate for high-end server and processing applications. A highly portable codebase and Hardware Abstraction Layer makes porting AmigaOS to other devices using the PowerPC architecture, from SOC components to the STI Cell processor, a simple and speedy matter. The PowerPC family is one of the most popular CPU architectures, and whatever your application there will be a solution for you. However the clean AmigaOS codebase was written with portability in mind, so if you’ve got your heart set on another processor family, talk to us and we’ll see what we can do.”
The PDA is some old reference design by IBM they did some years ago. While it is nice that Hyperion seem to have enough spare time to adopt it to that thing, it is obvious that no company picked up IMBs design.
IBM themselves abandioned that PDA meanwhile..
The ACK board, while still vapour (no pics, no evidence of a working prototype yet), might be a nice addendum for old the A1200, but with it’s MPC5200 is neither a way into the future processorwise, nor a cost sensitive solution (300 US $ + taxes + unconfirmed ammount for an unconfirmed gfx card).
The Troika board is even more vapour than the ACK board. Three ppl hiding behind anonymous nick names who claim to develop a new ppc board who gave some DPaint alike system drawings as PCB layout. No thanks, that is not what I call a good repuation.
There is *no* evidence of a prototype, not even of a *real* pcb design yet.
I wish the OS4 folks the best, but the Pegasos was offered to them since long, long time as a potential home (even for their (paranoid) license scheme a solution was offered, magic word here since 2002: usb dongle – cheap, releibale). It was always denied. Now it is given them for free and still they are complaining.
‘Wer nicht will, der hat schon’ as we phrase it in German…
Edited 2006-01-02 12:05
“OS4 middle to long run support for the Peg2 is still an option, just like running OS4 on higher specced Apple hardware (cool laptops…).”
Yeah right, now Apple will be paying the licensing costs that seems to be needed… or had ever expressed it will to have OS4 on their machines, or have a multiple OS policy… 🙄
@Pixie
If Hyperion were to do what BBRV says, i.e. to port OS4 to another HW platform without getting any monetary help (call it license, call it whatever you want) and then expect that this HW is sold so they can recover their investment, I think Apple HW is the logical way, the number of sold machines is much higher than PegII, you can choose different configs and even portables, you can find a huge second hand market, and you get, even if you are thinking to use it for OS4, MaxOSX as a “bonus”. What would you choose?
Edited 2006-01-03 03:07
You homo SAPians in the Amiga Community are in the stone age. Did someone not tell you that nearly all software is or is going to be free? If Sun Microsystems releases Solaris do you really think OS4 has a chance at anything beyond selling the OS to a few strange people who know the light of their computer better than the light of day? Genesi needs to pay no one. They get ample support from many Linux distributions and count many corporations as customers. Take a hint: OS4 is a closet project. MorphOS too. I did try MorphOS though and Birdie Shoot was great. There could be a chance for them in the embedded world because at least it works and is support on the Pegasos.
Rasmus
@ Rasmus
You wrote:
>>>
I did try MorphOS though and Birdie Shoot was great.
>>>
This is all you Homo NEITHERtalensis spotted of a whole OS?
Birdie Shoot???
A gratis game given with the MorphOS os as a gift and mainly bad written, full of bugs, with 3 or 4 screens and unworthy even an Amiga500 with only 256K???
Believe me pal!
You have understood all of the Amiga Philosophy behind MorphOS, its power and its usability.
Think different again!
MorphOS is REALLY more than a tiny shoot-the-bird computer game.
>>>
There could be a chance for them in the embedded world because at least it works and is support on the Pegasos.
>>>
There could be a chance everywhere for Amiga and MorphOS market if well supported…
Because they could be mounted on NON PALLADIUM-TCPA-TGM machines, which spies the user and prevent loading software written by third parties.
Yes. World of IT by big companies, is about to trying to monopolize the market of software cutting the throat to all free developers. with the Palladium hidden DONGLE.
He who wants to develop software for new Palladium based machines, then he must join the Palladium consortium paying for develop software tied to the hardware.
AmigaOS and MorphOS could be the choice of the new generations of users along with Linux, to avoid palladium regime controlling FREEDOM OF FEVELOPING SOFTWARE.
I wasn’t talking about not paying for the port, I would assume that Apple would never do it, but being Open Pegasos Open, you can find a company willing to take the risk, even amongst those who already have a license
Once the AROS project has reached sufficient maturity, they could work on a “new” Amiga[-like-]OS that runs on a multitude of hardware platforms, much like Haiku and Syllable are working on BeOS-like OSes for – in the future – both x86 and PPC.
This would render AmigaOS, whether it be from Hyperion or other contracters less important, of course, but such is the inescapable development of our software eco-system, IMHO.
FOSS is slower but even the turtle will reach the finish line eventually, and I am personally not in a hurry to get to the future, just wish to get there eventually, since I live happily with what I have now.
…the feeling of integration, like the “Mac experience”, won’t ever be felt the way it was in the Commodore days of old. This is what people buy into – an experience of “belonging”, “identity”, “community”, the whole gammut.
Hyperion/Amiga Inc./Genesi etc. should work together, or they will have NO future except on a small scale. They need to provide a real media hub in a small enclosure, with SCART/S-VHS in/out for the people with “old technology”, like a video recorder, much like the far too futuristic CDTV, for general purpose use, and a rack server solution (SMP). It has to be cheap, provide something truly BETTER.
This is not the case now, says a guy who owns almost every Amiga model made, including a clone, and used it for production work until 1997.
…that commodity, of-the-shelf components are so cheap it’s almost not worth it. I can build an x86-based, virtually silent, fast computer (from 3-4 times as fast as the Genisi offerings) for multimedia use – including a video-capture card and the rest of the niceties – in a nice enclosure for less than 1000 euros. This makes the price of any of the offerings of any of todays Amiga-like companies seem less attractive, unfortunately.
Of course, the Apple survives on selling cheap components for more money [please ignore the flamebait] and have for a long time, so maybe, just maybe, there’s a chance for Genesi to survive on the “coolness” factor.
The bottom line is that in order for AmigaOS 4.0 to sell, there must be a product that runs it.
Currently, there isn’t.
And there simply aren’t enough AmigaONE’s to build a business model from.
And from what I’m reading, if MAI is gone… There won’t be any more.
The Pegasos II is at least available, and runs MorphOS and Linux and possibly AROS and Haiku at some future time.
I paid $50.00 to a fund to buy an AmigaONE and AmigaOS, and have nothing but a T-shirt to show for it.
Even given that, I’d prepay to help fund the porting of AmigaOS to the PegII.
I’m thisclose to ordering a PegII anyway.
MorphOS looks nice. And if AmigaOS was available, I’d order one tomorrow.
I don’t need a PegII to run Linux or AROS, I have plenty of X86 and Mac Hardware to do that.
If Hyperion won’t port to the PegII, port to the Mac.
There’s LOTS of Beige Mac Hardware or older G3 Blue and White / G4 Graphite and even Mac Minis that would make a good AmigaOS 4.0 platform.
Millions of them.
Rather than a few hundred AmigaONES and a few more hundred PegII’s.
The bottom line seems to be that no Amiga company wants to succeed…
They either give up, never finish their products, or shoot themselves in the foot.
There’s WAY too much ego and not enough business sense.
Look at YellowTab. They’ve already penetrated the PC Market with Zeta 100x what AmigaOS and MorphOS has done to their small captive markets.
Just port AmigaOS and MorphOS to some commodity hardware, charge $50 for it. Charge per incident for support, and set up some User forums so that users can support each other…
And then get Applications written for it.
But, all this wrangling over liking or not liking Genesi, and keeping product from customers over petty bickering and ego, doesn’t make it.
We got denied Amithlon and Umilator because a couple people couldn’t put the needs of their customers over their own ego, and convinced Bernd, it wasn’t worth it…
People have to be professional and realize that the ONLY thing that matters is providing a product that customers can buy.
Playing “keep away” might feel good…
But it sells nothing. And gives end-users no joy.
Hyperion/Amiga Inc./Eyetech whoever could have the same deal as Genesi’s other OS partners where the OS provider gets $50 back on each sale of a bundled ODW.
I don’t know if they hold out for more, maybe they expect Genesi to pony up some cash and put their developers on the payroll for a year or something. Is the OS4 they offer really worth the $50 and this too, I don’t know. Is Genesi going to go against their standard business model and extend this kind of capital investment based on likely returns for this? I kind of doubt it.
There may also be some lingo in their super secret contracts that ties OS4 to Eyetech, the hardware provider that doesn’t. I read some interview with Eyetech person that sounded like he wants a payoff too.
In my case MorphOS fulfills my desire for an Amiga-like system with unique software development and good responsiveness etc. So it’s no big deal to me, but I hope the OS4 fans finally get what they keep longing for.
The reason why I liked the Amiga fifteen years ago was because of the outstanding features of the AGA chipset. You could, for instance, have multiple different resolutions on the screen at the same time. That’s something you don’t see anymore. I ask again: If the new Amiga hardware has nothing out of the ordinary, no technical gimmicks, why is it worth a buy?
I’d suggest reading
http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=content&task…
but, go down to FEATURE number 5. Screens
“With the famous Amiga “screen dragging” ability, it’s even possible to drag the current screen down to reveal another screen behind it, so that you can view two screens simultaneously, or even drag and drop files and other content from one screen to another.”
THIS feature has been uncoupled from its former dependance on Hardware!!
WHAT-EVER Hardware AmigaOS4.0 is running on isn’t really all that important. For various reasons (including that Classic m68k + PowerPC legacy hardware was initally, and STILL is, used for development) ( and prevention of piracy ) the OS is to be mainly sold coupled with h/ware . . . just as Apple sells OSX 10.x!
(( I’m currently running DebianPPC, & AmigaOS4.0 Pre-3, on A1 XE-G4
and OSX 10.4 Tiger on PowerMac Dual G4 500mHz Ethernet hardware. ))
Genesi’s Peg2 could be A solution. It’s not THE solution. It’s not the holy grail left for Hyperion to live off of. Genesi is not hte messiah come to save AmigaOS from a slight case of existence failure.
Come on guys, it’s a freakin motherboard, not some religious artifact. Genesi has occasionally trumpeted the Peg2 as a possibel host for AmigaOS4. Genesi has consistently failed to do business with Hyperion and Amiga Inc. Genesi has consistently not paid up the required license fee or paid for the work of porting the HAL and writing drivers for Peg’s on-board chips.
There’s other solutions in the works. Some can go into smaller spaces than Peg2 possibly can. Some may not fit in any standard computer cases at all, but will be custom sysytem designs. Some may take smaller form factors than Peg2 yet have more performance. Some will fit somewhere in the middle. All are potential solutions, I’m not sure any of them are THE solution. They can all work together to fit different needs.
I myself would like a laptop, and I am not going to try to sledgehammer a MicroATX board into a laptop shell, it’s just not suitable for that, and yet I’d want more performance than Genesi’s smaller size designs offer. Those aren’t suitable for me either.
No one motherboard can satisfy all needs. That’s why Apple has lots of them, each of which has sold far more than the Peg2. I’d love an iBook.
Yes, billt, it could be a solution and that is the whole point. I have re-read the blogs and I do not see where bbrv suggest anything any different. And, I don’t think they are any more responsible for the port of OS4 to the Pegasos than Apple would feel compelled to be for the iBook. The answer is of course there is ZERO responsibility for Apple or Genesi.
They even posted some numbers for consideration which probably throws more light on the matter than just a potential host for OS4. There is much more to think about and the sooner the AmigaWorld members start doing that the better. Thom was right to post this story.
By the way, now that I read all that, what other solutions are there? The others discussed on AmigaWorld have provided ZERO documentation or even an image suggesting their existence beyond the wetdream of some fanboy. Much less, providing any info on what you just suggested investigating in the thread in terms of RoHS compliance. What is your beef on this? The design may have to be reworked for components that comply, but one still has more information than ever released by anyone for such a platform.
Rasmus
>What is your beef on this?
My beef is that they’re marketing a business model, but one which they themselves don’t seem to be able to imagine can be a profitable one. They’re giving this model for free, they’re providing the hardware design for free, and that’s all great. Hyperion could potentially benefit from having this platform available to them, no arguments there.
But bbrv goes on to say that there’s no financial benefit in doing this, even with so much of it all being “free”.
“Hey, you guys should lose money by licensing OS4 and manufacturing this open hardware design!” That’s what bbrv is saying, and I don’t find it very convincing. . It’s an odd marketing pitch that just isn’t going to get many people excited.
But this “tradition” of being turned down seems a second count against this business model being very popular. I asked once about iBook support, was told no, and left it at that. I sill occasionally wish for a laptop so I can more conveniently take my OS4 work with me when I’m out of town, but I don’t continually nag Hyperion for iBook iBook iBook iBook like some broken record. “What about Genesi?” Uh, good or bad, history tells us it’s a waste of all our time to do this yet again, especially with everything going on this round saying Genesi aren’t part of bbrv’s proposed business model. The correct question would have been “What about Pegasos?”, but the outcome is likely the same, again, good or bad as it may be it is what it is. I’ll be pleasantly suprised if anyone follows through with the idea, but I don’t expect it to work out in the end.
I just think bbrv’s publicity stunt with a bad marketing pitch for a business method that’s apparently been turned down again and again and again is a bad idea, and I’m unhappy with yet another flamewar erupting because of such a non-productive (IMNSHO) announcement on what I see as a dead, dead, dead horse of a topic.
Now, surely someone is interested in doing this even before bbrv’s blog, and we’ve seen one or two publically lambast the business politicians for ignoring their genuine attempts to go through the OS vendors’ process. I’ve recently read that there were other attempts that weren’t so public. I won’t say these entreprenurial spirits are wrong to do so. If I had some money I’d be willing to do something myself, investing in a new design even to replace some antiquated items with current equivalents (swap out AGP for PCI-Express and IDE for SATA for example), as I do believe there are opportinities to be had with OS4. Some might consider my ranting that a 3rd party with any design would be crazy to invest in OS4 licensing, and I’ve not meant to say that at all. I only argue that this whole topic is a nonsensical waste of time regarding very specifically the proposed “OS4 on 3rd party Pegasos” business model in bbrv’s blog, and I don’t at all object to Pegasos as a standalone entity, the opening of its design and opportunities because of it, OS4 opportunities in general or different systems designed by other vendors.
I do object to the notion that this proposed business model is the only way that OS4 goals can possibly be successful, and that no other system design has any capacity whatsoever to be at all useful. I don’t believe that, no, and I don’t think I’m alone in this belief. Peg2 support does nto guarantee OS4 success, and lack of Peg2 support does not guarantee its failure. One motherboard simply isn’t important enough to be so completely influential on other people’s products.
>The design may have to be reworked for components that
>comply, but one still has more information than ever
>released by anyone for such a platform.
And I’m not against that. I was really only correcting bbrv’s statement that DCE’s assembly line was all that was needed for a product to be compliant. The components themselves must also be compliant before being assembled, regardless of the production process or the entire system is screwed, and bbrv left out that nitpicky detail. My knowledge of whether or not the current BOM is compliant or not is exactly zero. If something needs corrected, it might be a small change, or we might find it’s no longer really a Pegasos2 at all. We’ll all find out for certain in a few days.
As for photographic proof of the existence of any alternatives, what good did all those pictures of AmiJoe or BoXeR or SharkPPC or Dragon do for us? They may give some people some warm fuzzies, but they don’t prove anything.
bbrv keeps bringing up that part of their reasoning in the blog was to get people interested in power.org and grow support around the PowerPC ISA. Uh, surely Hyperions goal is to grow support around the ISA as well, regardless of involvement with power.org or support of the Peg2 design. bbrv doesn’t need to argue that, as we’ve already been heading down that same road, or at the very least heading in the same general direction, for a number of years already. Why preach to the choir?
I think you totally missed the point. Genesi is not marketing a business model, they are offering a hardware design which for better or worse can be useful to an OS that has NO working target platform that exists today and people can purchase.
I lump you into the misguided Amiga Community that has been lost since CBM went down the tubes. What are you writing about? Those are your problems to deal with, not Genesi’s. You are wrapped so tight around the axel you cannot hear you head hitting the ground: thud, crunch, thud, crunch…
Your post is a “waste of time.”
Rasmus