“Microsoft may not make flawless software, but its proprietary strategy is hard to fault. In particular, Microsoft has mastered desktop lock-in, undermining users’ confidence in any alternatives and creating a slew of minor difficulties that irritate those who do switch. Two themes dominate the stories I hear about the tribulations of using and adopting non-Microsoft business desktops: the difficulty in finding compatible hardware and the stranglehold Microsoft Word has on users. In the last week, IT pros have shared their experiences with these two adoption inhibitors. They’re representative of other stories I’ve heard.”
“Unfortunately, the other 20% have fouled the nest. One had some minor issues with a table inserted into a document and others reported number of everyday formatting issues. This vocal minority has rebelled against OpenOffice.”
You could get this level of trouble upgrading from MS Word N to MS Word N plus 1. But that’s not the way thes particular losers are going to see it.
“Finally, there’s not a Linux driver for the PC’s built-in modem.” Modems? How quaint.
Seriously, the OPTIMUM solution for Word compatibility AND hardware support–and TCO, too– is just to upgrade everybody to OS X. I can’t imagine why this hasn’t occurred to the author.
the OPTIMUM solution for Word compatibility AND hardware support–and TCO, too– is just to upgrade everybody to OS X
Word compability, yes, but at the cost of buying MS Office, which is already available on Windows, of course. So where’s the gain here?
Hardware support? Linux supports far more random hardware than do Macs. And the killer from a corporate point of view: going with OS X means tying oneself to a single hardware vendor. This reason alone is sufficient to ensure that Apple will never capture much of corporate desktop market.
Crossover Office would work too. Assuming they are re-installing Linux on Computers that already have licenses for MS Office, they would only have to pay for the Crossover License.
Although I can imagine most executives wouldn’t be pleased paying for a piece of software so that they can continue using another piece of software they have already paid for.
I don’t think they were using Linux. Just trying to move from Office.
Actually werent they just trying to move to an open format?
Two ways Linux sabotages its own desktop adoption …
1. Political wars between projects. Stop duplicating efforts, and just get your act together to make a few really awesome pieces of software. The KDE/GNOME war is just one of these.
2. Developing a system for developers, all while ignoring the little details that make an OS pleasant for the dull, non-technology-oriented general populace.
You can blame Microsoft all you like, but the truth of it is that we’re not innocent either. 😛
A third way Linux sabotages its own desktop adoption…
3. Zealotry. Try installing one of a number of leading Linux distros. Easy install, pretty desktop, media player…Now try playing your MP3 collection.
What does MP3 playing have to do with zealotry?
What does MP3 playing have to do with zealotry?
Or migrating business desktops to linux?
Eye candy and mp3’s are low on the list of priorities for a business desktop, something Novell will soon be discovering.
Standardized document formats and groupware/scheduling software are a little more pressing and have nothing to do with zealotry, other than maybe on behalf of the organizations that won’t at the very least explore alternatives.
I suppose maybe he’s trying to make the connection between zealots that go so far as to say things like “Your graphics will run faster and your sound will sound better! AND IT’S ALL MORE STABLE AND EASIER TO USE AND YOU SHOULD SWITCH RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE WINDOZE SUX0RZ!”
Then the victim of this kind of rhetoric installs Linux and finds that he can’t even play his MP3 collection. It’s twisted.
Then he gets pointed out to the MP3 player that is not installed as default and all is fine.
Stop using Red Hat people , they build Corporate products , support the Mandriva , Ubuntu , PclinuxOS and even the one who remove thousands of software but add integration and customization like Linspire , Xandros , Mepis.
3. Zealotry. Try installing one of a number of leading
Linux distros. Easy install, pretty desktop, media player…Now try playing your MP3 collection.
The mp3 issue is not related to linux. It is related to patent that cover mp3 technology.
Beside, installing mp3 support in today’s distro is just a one mouse click effort or so.
The mp3 issue is not related to linux. It is related to patent that cover mp3 technology.
Actually, it is. If every Linux distribution is going to cave in to everything that happens to get patented then nothing will get done. What is required is a Linux distributor who is serious (and I mean serious) about carving a market out for themselves who will just ship LAME as part of their distribution and vigorously defend themselves. Again, as part of that, a background strategy of converting people to Ogg Vorbis needs to happen as well. You notice that Microsoft has recently been developing stuff that will kindly allow people to convert their MP3s into WMA files ;-).
The problem with the MP3 patent (although ‘MP3’ is never mentioned anywhere in it) is that people have simply just accepted it. If patents are going to be accepted in that manner then open source software can never reach critical mass in the desktop world.
Its people being lazy , name me one distribution that cant have MP3 support and installed in seconds , You have to respect those company who dont whant to support patent and pay the fee associated to that rip off. Distribution have to leggaly pay millions in order to offer it legally , when user can go and dowload it legally from some providers. Its also paid by almost any hardware maker that as something related to sound ( read you paid for it when you bought your dvd in your cd-r , cdrw , sound card , modem , etc … its not a one time fee for all , they all paid for it and they pass on the fee to you. )
MP3 is a fancy name for a compression algorithm that became standard among the content provider after they saw it used by the users in masse. If people keep paying for MP3 support the cycle never ends.
The problem is really higher then that , the normal user cant go in a best buy , Wallmart and pick from a choice of the best offer between a PC and Apple and GNu/Linux system , most of the integrated system ar enot sold in the big cahins or cost is prohibitive.
The mp3 issue is not related to linux. It is related to patent that cover mp3 technology.
But it is related to Linux, in that it’s a choice on the part of whoever manages the distribution. There’s no technical or legal reason why mp3 support can’t be included (if I understand correctly)…it’s just an ideological choice. Users don’t care about ideological choices, nor do they want to be told that they should really re-rip all their music in another format. They want to play their music, which worked just fine before they switched to Linux.
Beside, installing mp3 support in today’s distro is just a one mouse click effort or so.
The last time I tried to install mp3 support on Ubuntu, it required at least (1) going to the wiki and doing a search to get instructions, (2) editing my apt sources file, (3) installing the appropriate packages, and most importantly (4) knowing that this was an option and that somewhere on the Ubuntu site I could probably find the answers. These are things that took me a while to figure out, and I do this stuff for a living.
If the ideological divide simply can’t be bridged, there are alternatives but they need to be more user-focused. For example, an option during or right after install that says, “Do you want to install mp3 and Flash support?” But even that isn’t foolproof.
“technical ”
Yes , its beeing watch over like hawk. It whas tried inclusion from third party and it whas refused.
“legal reason”
Yes there is the distribution have to legally pay millions for beeing able to offer it legally.
“it’s just an ideological choice.”
No , but thats what some idiot would have you believed.
“which worked just fine before they switched to Linux.”
Thats a load of crap , Do a real OS install of Windows sometime from the retail version , you will see that MP3 , codecs and a lot of DVD stuff is not included.
The OEM ( Read Dell , HP , Gateway , etc ) are just including it in there price and passing the bill on to you.
“The last time I tried to install mp3 support on Ubuntu”
There is your real problem , no really , Your NOT an Ubuntu expert , your NOT a qualified GNU/Linux expert ? Your NOT an integrator specialist ? NO ? Thats why you fail :
http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/
“If the ideological divide simply can’t be bridged”
What Ideology ? the I am going to blame the product for me behing clueless. The problem can only be solved with Help , Support and training class. Or buying a trun key GNU/Linux system.
“and I do this stuff for a living. ”
I think its time to change job or get social skills.
> “The last time I tried to install mp3 support on Ubuntu”
>
> There is your real problem , no really , Your NOT an Ubuntu expert , your NOT a
> qualified GNU/Linux expert ? Your NOT an integrator specialist ? NO ?
> Thats why you fail :
Suprisingly, many Windows users have no problem to download an MP3 player from http://www.winamp.com with a few clicks and no expertise. Can you tell me how to do the same with Linux (preferably Ubuntu)?
– Morin
“Suprisingly, many Windows users have no problem to download an MP3 player from http://www.winamp.com”
85% of windows user Never have to instal software.
I did in the above message its clearly written :
http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/
You dont know how to install software on ubuntu ?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&scoring=d&ie=utf-8&…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5253052326994067125
Learn it.
85% of windows user Never have to instal software.
Where did you pull that figure ? Out of your ass I presume.
I do development and support. Almost every user I’ve dealt with is familiar with downloading, double clicking a setup.exe program and using “add/remove” programs to remove an app.
I did in the above message its clearly written :
” Where did you pull that figure ?”
http://www.thechannelinsider.com/
search for it , you say your smart , you can find it.
“I do development and support.”
Really ? for who ? Microsoft ? Apple ? or ?
“Almost every user … to remove an app. ”
I dont think a pool of 5 people count really high.
Really ? for who ? Microsoft ? Apple ? or ?
Multiple companies. I’ve contracted in the past for one of the companies you list above.
http://www.thechannelinsider.com/
search for it , you say your smart , you can find it.
Honestly I don’t have the time nor the care to search for it.
With the amount of spyware/malware that installs with 3rd party software and the uproar about all the widespread problems and systems being infected I’d assume it was obvious most people know how to install something.
I dont think a pool of 5 people count really high.
Well at my last support position I handled approx 300 customers a month for a major company with 150,000 employees. I might have found 5 in a month that didn’t know how to install something. In fact that was usually the problem – they INSTALLED something and screwed up the OS configuration in some way.
Usually it was some sort of security anti-spyware/anti-usability app that broke a company web based app in some way.
Open a terminal, type sudo apt-get update and then sudo apt-get install gstreamer-plugins (which will install all of the codecs gstreamer supports that are listed in the repos).
Done.
Sudo apt-get update and install are NOT difficult. If they need to go to winamp.com, find the download, download it, remember where they downloaded it to, double click, and go through the install…
Or, they can learn to do something different. Yes, different.
If it’s a brand new user, that’s especially easy. Just because they do something different from most users, doesn’t mean it’s any harder. In fact, if they do exactly what I said, they can close the window, open their menu, point to the media player (which rather than being listed under “nullsoft” will be listed under “audio” or multimedia…And boom! MP3!
Is it perfect? Nope. But neither is the Windows method (contrary to popular belief). After all, apt will automatically find, configure, and install everything for their system. How do they know whether or not to make Winamp the default mp3 player? Or where to put it?
ThawkTH :
http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/
Multimedia
* Enhance video player: Install a better multimedia motor (totem-xine replace totem-gstreamer)
* Free Codecs: Add Support for playing mp3 and other non-free formats
* Binary Codecs: Add support for proprietary video and audio formats (w32codecs)
* libdvdcss: Read commercial and encrypted DVDs
* RealPlayer: A proprietary software to read Real audio and video streams
* MIDI: Add support for playing midi files
Web
* Flash: Enable the Macromedia Flash plugin
* Java: Enable the Sun Java plugin (Java 1.5)
* Videos: Enable viewing videos embedded in webpages
* Firefox icon: restore the official Mozilla Firefox icon (work in progress)
* Firefox forms: install nice buttons integrated with GNOME (work in progress)
Archives
* RAR: extract and create RAR archives
* ACE: extract ACE archives
* 7-Zip: Extract 7-Zip archives
System
* Repository list: Main, Universe, Multiverse and PLF (replace your previous sources.list
* Fonts: Install Microsoft and other nice fonts
* DMA: Enable Direct Memory Access to improve DVD reading
* Num Lock: Enable the Num Lock at system startup
* KDE/QT integration: QT/KDE apps with a GNOME look’n’feel (work in progress)
* Ctrl+Alt+Del: Windows-like shortcut to run the system monitor
* Nvidia: install the official driver to enable 3D on Nvidia graphics cards
* ATI: install the official driver to enable 3D on ATI graphics cards
Voice Over IP
* Wengo: a free Voice Over IP software (work in progress)
* Skype: the most popular VoIP software
Very interesting!
I wasn’t aware of this as I only used Ubuntu for a short time, Kubuntu since Hoary was released, and I’m currently in Kanotix.
Very interesting tool though.
I know, I only discovered it recently. It seems better than Automatix (which was pretty neat also), I haven’t had a chance to use it (my Kubuntu system is already all set up…)
Automatix is nice too but not as well developed :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=66563
I forget about it all the time and it as to many “Please DO NOT” for me to recommand it fully.
Yes, easily:
– Choose Synaptic from the menu
– Type “mp3” in the search box
– A series of mp3 players will appear.
– Double-click on one.
– Click on install.
– Confirm.
– Wait a few seconds.
– Done.
“Easy Ubuntu is easy, graphical and safe. Even your grandmother could use it!”
Right, I download “The last Easy Ubuntu snapshot”, but it’s a archive, no problem, I decompress, and it’s stuck a load of files on my desktop, Hmm, click on “easy Ubuntu”, as that seems to be the most likey, and ask for admin password, that seems good, But, no, hang on it’s asked for another password, it’s not accepting my “root” password, it’s what a suprise, it’s not JUST WORKING.
Yes it’s my fault for being stupid, maybe I should get my grandmother to do it for me?
There’s no technical or legal reason why mp3 support can’t be included (if I understand correctly)…it’s just an ideological choice.
Actually it’s a legal issue.
For example, an option during or right after install that says, “Do you want to install mp3 and Flash support?” But even that isn’t foolproof.
Check out Automatix and EasyUbuntu.
Yup, because every distro I’ve ever come across that doesn’t play mp3’s out of the box, it’s next to impossible to just *gasp* download mp3 support on sites like livna or plf. And I mean, whoever heard of someone downloading an mp3 player on Windows, something along the lines of winamp or realplayer. I sure haven’t heard of such a thing.
Really though, what is it with everyone and mp3’s? I really don’t get it. Why not just rip your stuff to ogg? It takes less space and it’s higher quality.
Edited 2006-02-09 19:36
1. Because people understand downloading and installing a media player. They don’t understand codecs. They fire up their media player, try to play an MP3, and it either crashes, doesn’t play anything, or shows an error message. How is this person supposed to figure “Oh! I need an MP3 codec! I’ll just go to _____ and download one.”
2. Because most people already have a huge MP3 collection, that they either don’t want to re-rip, or never ripped in the first place. OGG is also next to useless for most portable music players. Nice solution.
Because (call me ignorant, you wouldn’t be the first one) I would suppose a novice user that is interesed in using linux to have either a geek friend who does this for him/her, use a distro, that supports out of ignorance or due to commerical 3rd party products mp3’s out of the box (I know it’s far from the perfect choice for newbs, but I never had to install anything additional to play mp3s on my Slackware systems, and they do not even have a localized version for non-US countries, I’m pretty sure, there are other distros out there that take the risk too) or ask the vendors/user groups of their distro *why* there is no such thing as a native mp3 support and what to do about that.
If installing a codec is such a big hinderance (given YaST,Synaptics,yumm, …. ) then perhaps the person in question should wait until the patent that interferes with mp3 support has expired, because it seems to me, that the user isn’t ready for linux (yet).
PS: Why is it, that I can’t find the typos, when I preview the comment, but later, while reading it again?
Should really improve my English
Edited 2006-02-09 20:04
So remind me again how people running windows play divx files for example? People understand the concepts well enough I figure. Anyway, there’s always realplayer.
And yeah, mp3 has the momentum, I guess that’s what it comes down to, but these betamax vs. vhs type situations still strike me as odd. What can I say. People are sheep I guess.
Usually when you download a DivX from somewhere legal, there’s a big, bright, blue “Download DivX here!” button. The site is obvious enough as well.
Do I go to http://www.mp3.com when I want to download an MP3 codec for Fedora Core? Nope.
Usually when you download a DivX from somewhere legal, there’s a big, bright, blue “Download DivX here!” button. The site is obvious enough as well.
But divx is a codec and you were just saying earlier that users dont understand codecs. Hmmm…
I go to http://www.mp3.com when I want to download an MP3 codec for Fedora Core? Nope.
You have to understand that most people arent as dumb as youre pretending to be. Anyone who has surfed the net knows what a search engine is, and Im quite certain they would use google or whatever before trying to find something by just randomly typing stuff directly in the address bar.
They know they need something called DivX, they don’t know what a codec is or how it works.
When it comes to MP3 support, that’s just something people expect is a built into the operating system — something that “just works”.
1. Political wars between projects. Stop duplicating efforts, and just get your act together to make a few really awesome pieces of software. The KDE/GNOME war is just one of these.
Agree here. Linux could easily overtake Microsoft if all of its developers would put their collective minds together and come up a unified and cohesive desktop experience for the end user.
But they seem have no vision at all, so the whole thing is splintered in 1,0000,000 directions. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing (as many people will tell you, choice is a good thing), but it’s a little short-sighted I think to blame Microsoft for issues that are mostly your own. If you really want to convert the masses, why not come together and put together a better mousetrap instead of bitching and whinning about what MS is or is not doing?
…their collective minds…
Since all the developers are human and no Borg, there is no such thing as a collective mind.
Moreover, the developers understanding is that there is more than one kind of user.
Yet both OS X and Windows really only have a single user interface, and nearly everyone who uses those interfaces are pretty happy, or simply don’t care.
That argument is nil, because a DE can be made flexible enough to accomodate almost all of the popular usage patterns. Hell, they already are, if screenshots of people’s Linux desktop are any indication.
The bitching about what MS is and isn’t doing does have to stop, though.
Yet both OS X and Windows really only have a single user interface
Sorry, I always thought Windows and OSX had different user interfaces.
Actually I believed that the difference was one of the main reasons people were using OS X.
Windows has one UI, right? How many does OS X have? One, right? OK, now you can feel/be sorry.
Windows has one UI, right? How many does OS X have? One, right?
Right. Which is exactly what I am saying: there are at least two different preferences of UIs on proprietary operating systems, so why shouldn’t there be two different UIs on free operating systems?
Right. Which is exactly what I am saying: there are at least two different preferences of UIs on proprietary operating systems, so why shouldn’t there be two different UIs on free operating systems?
Very well put, let’s hope this puts this silly argument to rest.
It should be noted, however, that there are shell replacements for Windows, so in fact it’s not true to say that there is only one UI for Windows.
In any case, as I’ve already said, I’ve never heard of a single person who has shied away from using Linux because they had to choose between KDE/Gnome.
The bitching about what MS is and isn’t doing does have to stop, though.
It will stop when Microsoft stops trying to use its monopoly status to stifle competition in the OS and Office Suite markets.
Since all the developers are human and no Borg, there is no such thing as a collective mind.
Well, whatever the semantics .. maybe they should look and see how Apple does it, and take notes.
Moreover, the developers understanding is that there is more than one kind of user.
Right, the kind of user who wants to dick with the OS all day and those who don’t. I’m speaking about the latter type of user.
Stop using Gentoo and the developper or from source distribution.
Try Mandriva , PClinuxOS and get a mentor , teachor or some class on them.
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing (as many people will tell you, choice is a good thing), but it’s a little short-sighted I think to blame Microsoft for issues that are mostly your own.
I disagree. The “choice” issue has a negligible effect on Linux adoption. MS Office not being available, on the other hand…
Let’s also not forget MS blackmailing OEMs for years if they dared sell their machines with anything else than Windows pre-installed!
“1. Political wars between projects. Stop duplicating efforts, and just get your act together to make a few really awesome pieces of software. The KDE/GNOME war is just one of these. ”
There is no war between KDE and GNOME. These are two projects each developing a graphical interface much different than the other, and the differences only increase as time goes by. I see how you’d think that from reading OSNews though.
My family uses GNU/Linux exclusively, they don’t know what GNOME or KDE is.
“2. Developing a system for developers, all while ignoring the little details that make an OS pleasant for the dull, non-technology-oriented general populace. ”
I don’t think that’s true. RHEL, NLD, Ubuntu are all systems that target end users.
Even if some of the software available is designed towards advanced users they can be tweaked by these companies, since the license allows that.
RHEL = Red Hat Entreprise Linux
NLD = Novel Linux desktop.
BOTH are targeting corporations and have spin off project ( fedora , Open Suse ) for the end user because they just care about making big profit and cant achieve the level of dekstop of the current GNU/Linux desktop for end user champions :
Mandriva
Ubuntu
PcLinusOS
Linspire
Xandros
I would have to agree with the intent of this post, but I have a different take on the content.
RHEL and NLD are very much targeted at corporations as mentioned. They are installed on workstation computers. Workstations generally have a more focused purpose in mind than do desktops, and they require more guarantees on stability and reliability. So, the design criteria is quite different for RHEL and NLD than it is for some of the more desktop oriented distributions.
Fedora and openSUSE are both incubation projects to test a wider variety of software without needing to worry as much about the stability of a workstation in a corporation. Because of the different approach and goals of Fedora and openSUSE, they better satisfy the “do anything” needs of a desktop user.
I have used every distribution mentioned including the supposed “GNU/Linux desktop for end user champions.” I have even had my mother (not a computer genius) try some of them for her needs. None has had as good a combination of user-friendliness and power as SUSE (IMHO). Regardless of the OS/distribution, no one could have gotten my mother to install an OS on her own. All the same, SUSE required less tweaking to get it where my mother was happy with it than any other distribution of Linux or even Windows.
NLD 9 wasn’t something I would ever imagine offering to my mother. That doesn’t mean that SUSE was flawed. Perhaps NLD 10 will be a better derivative product, but it doesn’t really matter as long as openSUSE continues to be a terrific product and other products continue to improve.
Moulinneuf is very correct in his attempts to explain that not all distributions are created equally, but he is wrong in his implications that Fedora and openSUSE were created as afterthoughts in the market. They are both very competent products in their own right, and are superior for some to the other distributions mentioned (even for desktop use).
Moulinneuf is also very correct in stating that there are definitely distributions better aimed at satisfying the home user than RHEL and NLD.
This makes no sense (even excluding the “Linux is only the kernel” argument).
1. Political wars force you to evaluate your ideas, competition drives your efforts. Without these, you’d get shoddy and/or slowly released software. Just because the linux developers aren’t writing what you want/expect doesn’t mean that the stuff isn’t moving forward.
2. It’s pretty obvious based on my experiences that software that is written with the details first and the main part later tend to be poorly designed. Details come from refining what you’ve made, not from guessing before you make it.
If “we’re” not innocent, it’s that we’re guilty of not realizing that first doesn’t always mean best.
1. The existence and evolution of OS X disproves this. Vista also, but to a smaller extent.
2. Software development should start with good planning and models. Writing the code is the second-to-last stage. 🙂
1. The existence and evolution of OS X disproves this. Vista also, but to a smaller extent.
However in the world do arrive at this conclusion? OS X and Windows XP/Vista are in competition with one another. Exactly like Gnome and KDE are in competition with one another.
The root of your misunderstanding seems to be that you are treating Linux (or FOSS in its entirety) as though it were the equivalent of a single company. It’s not. FOSS software represents an extended ecosystem which is the equivalent of the entire proprietary software market. Asking Linux/FOSS to get its act together and abandon competing or overlapping efforts is the equivalent of asking the whole proprietary software market to get its act together and abandon competing efforts.
Political wars are one thing. Competition is another. I have no doubts in my mind that KDE/GNOME are competing, just as much as Apple and Microsoft are.
I think perhaps you should pay less attention to the endless web forum chatter from the foaming-at-the-mouth fanboy set. There’s an unfortunate geek tendency to transform simple tool preference into an urgent matter of cosmic significance. Although, it should be noted that this very same tendency can be witnessed on forums devoted to proprietary software as well. The only difference being that proprietary companies have PR departments, which helps to dissuade people from assuming that the opinions of some anonymous and socially maladaptive teenager are in any way official.
“the foaming-at-the-mouth fanboy set.”
Like :
Linux Torvalds
Alan Cox
Miguel De icaza
Aaron J. Seigo
etc …
The difference between GNU/Linux and the rest is things are Open for everyone to see , The one that are the loudest are usualy developper themself.
The difference between the two is really that you cant legally and at no cost participate to Microsoft windows and Apple Mac OS X CORE , where as GNU/Linux anyone can.
You forget the media categorization and generalization from some widely published technologist and Writer for hire that GNU/Linux user are a special brand of people who will go on jihad when they dont like you. The problem is usualy the people that show up to defend stuff are usually developper or project participants.
competition is about running the race… not winning then killing all the loosers!! KDE and Gnome can compete all day… some years one or the other gets ahead, but then something the other does different gets it more fans at some point in time.. wittness the big Ubuntu/Gnonme fad lately.
1. The existence and evolution of OS X disproves this. Vista also, but to a smaller extent.
Surely you agree that there are political wars between Apple and Microsoft?
And no, I think lack of “internal” competition has held MacOS back. They may have a good product now, but it’s taken them longer than “Linux” has had, and it still doesn’t have the diversity you find with Linux.
2. Software development should start with good planning and models. Writing the code is the second-to-last stage. 🙂
True enough, but some or even most software won’t ever be “finished” so there is no second-to-last stage. Details change much faster and more often than the core stuff.
1. Political wars between projects. Stop duplicating efforts, and just get your act together to make a few really awesome pieces of software. The KDE/GNOME war is just one of these.
Actually, that’s got very little to do with any of the problems this person is talking about. Both major desktops provide pretty sound integration with Open Office, but OO’s problem is that it tries very hard to be an MS Office replacement with full support for Microsoft’s closed formats for reading and writing. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that just isn’t achievable, and more importantly, sustainable, and it also ensures that Microsoft’s future ‘enhancements‘ to their formats will need to supported by OO as people are still locked into that cycle. It’s the same for stuff like Windows Media formats and other things.
What is needed is a concerted strategy to get people converting their Microsoft Office formats, one-way, into Open Document or something open source software can conceivably used. It has become pretty clear to me that no one (including those who are supposed to be involved in promoting desktop Linux) has thought about how to do this, or even knows that it exists, and I’m not even sure that anyone involved with OO or promoting an open source desktop has the backbone for it. It’s a long hard slog and a war of attrition.
Over many years Microsoft have carefully put in place roadblocks with regards to their desktop dominance, and even before they were dominant, and they’ve been pretty clever about it.
Edited 2006-02-09 19:29
While the statement seems sensible, it’s not going to happen. KDE is a desktop environment for *ix, as is GNOME. They are not Linux projects in and of themselves, though most of their use is indeed Linux.
Second, GNOME and KDE and XFCE and …and…and… all exist for a reason. Those who develop for them, for whatever reason, LIKE the project. If there was just GNOME, how are you so sure everyone working on KDE would put their energies (not to mention the same amount of energy)into the “one project”.
Third, much of the OSS movement invests itself in the value of choice. While this may be seen as a hinderance to some, it’s seen as a strength to many others. While some see KDE/GNOME as fighting a war, one must realize it’s a war without casualties. I tend to see more friendly competition and motivation than anything else.
Linux is not cohesive (in the Windows sense), and while that has certainly slowed it down in many ways, it has also made it into what it is today. Development has been and continues to accelerate at a pace faster than I can keep up with.
I’m tired of people wanting to make Linux into an operating system. It’s not in the Windows/OSX sense! It’s a kernel and some userland tools etc. There will always be different DE’s. Different distros.
Freedom. Choice. Evolution.
Thank God.
Agreed — choice is great.
I really wish some Linux zealots would realize that, and accept “I choose to use Windows” as a valid choice as well sometimes.
I really wish some Linux zealots would realize that, and accept “I choose to use Windows” as a valid choice as well sometimes.
Who here has said anything about choosing to use Windows not being a valid choice? No one.
The problem is that most people do not choose to run Windows. They do so precisely because they don’t have a choice (or at least think they don’t).
Who here has said anything about choosing to use Windows not being a valid choice? No one.
It’s kind of implied when people are criticized/mocked/whatever for using windows (with snide remarks like “enjoy your spyware” and the like).
The problem is that most people do not choose to run Windows. They do so precisely because they don’t have a choice (or at least think they don’t).
Wrong. Most people either are perfectly content or simply don’t care enough.
I’m sure there are idiots out there who think they don’t have a choice, but they are in the minority. Just don’t confuse apathy with ignorance.
It’s kind of implied when people are criticized/mocked/whatever for using windows (with snide remarks like “enjoy your spyware” and the like).
Well, considering that spyware does not exist for Linux, that is a valid criticism. However, no one is saying that it’s not a valid choice. A lot of us, such as me, also run Windows – heck, I have a Windows virtual machine inside this very laptop (my tax software won’t run under WINE).
Wrong. Most people either are perfectly content or simply don’t care enough
I disagree. Nearly every Windows user I know hates Windows. Many of them would buy a Mac if they didn’t think they were so expensive. When I suggest Linux, most of them either don’t know what it is, unsure what it does or are afraid it’s too complicated.
The only people I see actively defend Windows are anti-Linux posters here and other websites, and I suspect that at least a portion of them are really Microsoft astroturfers.
I’m sure there are idiots out there who think they don’t have a choice, but they are in the minority. Just don’t confuse apathy with ignorance.
So, if someone isn’t aware of something, they’re an idiot? That’s nice…
Oh, and don’t forget those who would like to run something other than Windows but can’t because of MS Office, or because their hardware is certified for Windows only. You know, the topic of the article…these people don’t have much of a choice.
But I’m sure you’ll continue to defend the multi-billion dollar monopoly because, you know, it really needs your help…
Well, considering that spyware does not exist for Linux, that is a valid criticism. However, no one is saying that it’s not a valid choice. A lot of us, such as me, also run Windows – heck, I have a Windows virtual machine inside this very laptop (my tax software won’t run under WINE).
That’s not the point though. It’s the snide remarks and ridicule, especially on sites like this where most posters are probably competent enough to properly upkeep their desktop, whether windows or linux.
As well, sure there are a lot of people who also run Windows, but that’s not who I’m talking about.
I disagree. Nearly every Windows user I know hates Windows. Many of them would buy a Mac if they didn’t think they were so expensive. When I suggest Linux, most of them either don’t know what it is, unsure what it does or are afraid it’s too complicated.
So you just admitted they do know that they have a choice.
The only people I see actively defend Windows are anti-Linux posters here and other websites, and I suspect that at least a portion of them are really Microsoft astroturfers.
This is exactly what I was talking about!!!
So, if someone isn’t aware of something, they’re an idiot? That’s nice…
Idiot was poor choice of words, but if someone truly believes there are no other choices besides for Windows on a PC, then well.. that’s kind of odd.
You know, the topic of the article…these people don’t have much of a choice.
That is not Microsofts fault though.
But I’m sure you’ll continue to defend the multi-billion dollar monopoly because, you know, it really needs your help…
Again, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Thanks for proving my point jerk.
That’s not the point though. It’s the snide remarks and ridicule, especially on sites like this where most posters are probably competent enough to properly upkeep their desktop, whether windows or linux.
I disagree with ridiculing someone because they choose to run Windows. However, many people get snide remarks not because they choose Windows, but because they defend Microsoft. That’s quite a different thing. Microsoft has demonstrated time and time again a predatory behavior with regards to Linux, trying by hook or by crook to stifle its development.
So why I have nothing against Windows or people who use it, but I am very critical of Microsoft. If you can’t separate the two, that’s your problem. I certainly can.
So you just admitted they do know that they have a choice.
No, I just said that some have heard of Linux but are unsure as to what it is. In order to choose, you have to be informed, and many people don’t know what Linux is. Heck, many computer users don’t even know what an OS is…
“The only people I see actively defend Windows are anti-Linux posters here and other websites, and I suspect that at least a portion of them are really Microsoft astroturfers.”
This is exactly what I was talking about!!!
Uh, no. You were talking about people who choose to use Windows. I’m talking about people who actively defend Windows on web sites. Please pay attention, if you’re going to misunderstand/misinterpret everything I say, we won’t get very far.
And, yes, I do believe that a portion of pro-Microsoft posters are really MS employees. After all, we had Sun employees post here, and MS is a much bigger company…also, they’ve done this kind of thing before. Read up on the history of astroturfing, you’ll see it’s not just fairy tales.
I’m not accusing you of being an astroturfer, by the way. Unlike you, I’ll refrain from personal attacks and insults.
Idiot was poor choice of words, but if someone truly believes there are no other choices besides for Windows on a PC, then well.. that’s kind of odd.
That is not Microsofts fault though.
Tell that to the BeOS people…
Microsoft didn’t get where it is today by playing nice. The problem with Linux is that it’s not a commercial entity. When Microsoft uses disinformation and predatory tactics against Linux, the member of the community tend to take it personally. That’s just the way it is, and it’s not going to change until Microsoft changes its attitude and starts making at least some of its products available for Linux, like they do for OS X.
Again, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Thanks for proving my point jerk.
Mmm…too bad they don’t give out mod points, as your post goes against the terms you’ve agreed to by posting. But hey, it’s your credibility. If you want to throw it out the window (no pun intended) go right ahead.
As I have written above, I won’t criticize people who choose to use Windows. That’d be pretty stupid, because I use it myself (just like I do MS Office, a fine office suite which I wished I could run natively). I will, however, spar with people who defend Microsoft and try to minimize/deny the way it abuses its monopoly, and will continue to do so as long as Microsoft keeps its predatory tactics against Linux.
Feel free to add more insults, they really don’t affect me and only strengthen my position.
So why I have nothing against Windows or people who use it, but I am very critical of Microsoft. If you can’t separate the two, that’s your problem. I certainly can.
Great for you, but not everyone is like you.
No, I just said that some have heard of Linux but are unsure as to what it is. In order to choose, you have to be informed, and many people don’t know what Linux is. Heck, many computer users don’t even know what an OS is…
But they KNOW the choice exists. That means you have the choice. If you don’t have enough to make the decision, you can find out more.
Uh, no. You were talking about people who choose to use Windows. I’m talking about people who actively defend Windows on web sites. Please pay attention, if you’re going to misunderstand/misinterpret everything I say, we won’t get very far.
Try again. Reread what you said, “the only people I see actively defending Windows [i do] are anti-Linux [i’m not].” THAT is what I’m taking about. I do actively defend Microsoft by proxy of actively defending Windows by proxy of defending why I think it’s a decent operating system. Follow?
I’m not accusing you of being an astroturfer, by the way. Unlike you, I’ll refrain from personal attacks and insults.
Where did I insult or attack you? “Jerk” is not an insult or an attack.
Mmm…too bad they don’t give out mod points, as your post goes against the terms you’ve agreed to by posting. But hey, it’s your credibility. If you want to throw it out the window (no pun intended) go right ahead.
Try again. Jerk is a synonym for a rude person, which is the context I meant it in. Yes, I think you were being a bit rude.
What I don’t get is why people aren’t allowed to defend Microsoft without being accused of being an astroturfer or being told they don’t need help. Guess what? Not everything they do is wrong. Maybe when someone defends them, it’s because the person actually believes, in that case, Microsoft is being unfairly criticized. So should people that disagree just stand by while others unfairly (to them) trash Microsoft? Sounds like a circle-jerk to me.
If you (you in general, not you specifically) want to trash Microsoft, trash them for what they have done wrong. Don’t trash them for anything they do because they have a bad history.
Me, I like to judge individual actions, and not blanket things, even if it is easier.
But they KNOW the choice exists.
If you don’t know what an OS is, how can you choose to use something else!
Come on, are you really trying to say that the majority of people who use Windows know what Linux is and what it can do, and have chose not to use it?
Reread what you said, “the only people I see actively defending Windows [i do] are anti-Linux [i’m not].”
Okay, it’s my turn to invoke a poor choice of words (we’re both allowed one, right? :-).
I should have said “people who defend Microsoft”. However, it’s usually true of people who defend Windows as well. Note that, as I replied to Tom K, I don’t see this as a causal link (“you are anti-Linux BECAUSE you defend Windows”) but rather as an observation (“posters who defend Windows tend to also post FUD about Linux”).
“Jerk” is not an insult or an attack.
I believe it is. Merriam-Webster defines “jerk” as “an annoyingly stupid or foolish person”. “Jerk” is not a synonym for “rude” anymore than “idiot” is a synonym for “unaware”…
So should people that disagree just stand by while others unfairly (to them) trash Microsoft?
Sure, MS can take care of itself, it has a Marketing budget in the hundred of millions.
If you (you in general, not you specifically) want to trash Microsoft, trash them for what they have done wrong. Don’t trash them for anything they do because they have a bad history.
No, I will trash them because of their bad behavior against Linux, even if they also do some good things, because a right doesn’t cancel a wrong. And I don’t mind being unfair to a multi-billion monopoly who has very little scruples when it comes to crushing its competition.
Why YOU feel the need to spend so much energy to defend this abusive mega-corporation is beyond me, though.
Come on, are you really trying to say that the majority of people who use Windows know what Linux is and what it can do, and have chose not to use it?
Um, no, not at all. I said most people KNOW they have other choices. That’s it.
I believe it is. Merriam-Webster defines “jerk” as “an annoyingly stupid or foolish person”. “Jerk” is not a synonym for “rude” anymore than “idiot” is a synonym for “unaware”…
I’m sorry, I should have simply said rude. However, jerk is in fact a synonym for rude according to dictionary.com
Sure, MS can take care of itself, it has a Marketing budget in the hundred of millions.
I see. So I’m not allowed to defend any large company even if I believe they are not in the wrong because thye have money. Great logic.
No, I will trash them because of their bad behavior against Linux, even if they also do some good things, because a right doesn’t cancel a wrong.
But I’m talking about trashing GOOD actions or actions that are neutral because of their history.
Why YOU feel the need to spend so much energy to defend this abusive mega-corporation is beyond me, though.
Why YOU feel the need to trash them and defend linux is beyond me. Please, that’s a ridiculous thing to say.
> The only people I see actively defend Windows are anti-Linux posters here and other websites, and I suspect that at least a portion of them are really Microsoft astroturfers.
Wrong. Most people who defend Windows are people who use it and know that the snide remarks of Linux/Mac fanboys are bullshit.
“Enjoy your blue screens of death!” is a common one, and it’s one that is 100% *NOT TRUE* as long as your hardware isn’t crap. If I defend that, am I seen as anti-Linux? Give me a break.
Wrong. Most people who defend Windows are people who use it and know that the snide remarks of Linux/Mac fanboys are bullshit.
See my response to sappyvvc.
“Enjoy your blue screens of death!” is a common one, and it’s one that is 100% *NOT TRUE* as long as your hardware isn’t crap.
Half-Life 2 spontaneously reboots my Windows 2000 PC at work. I’m not making this up. Windows 2000 is a great OS, very stable, but it does crash.
But you missed my point. The point is not that people who choose to use Windows make a bad choice, is just that those who defend it on this website almost invariably (with a few exceptions) post FUD about Linux.
It’s quite simple. Linux advocates criticize Microsoft, because MS spends lots of time and money to make their life more difficutl than it needs be (see the recent ODF story in Masschusetts). Windows advocates – on this site at least – tend to criticize Linux and Linux USERS.
If someone is guilty of making snide comments (zealots, communists, geeks, etc.) about the OS users, its Microsoft apologists against Linux users. Linux users will mostly criticize Microsoft, and sometimes Windows, but very rarely Windows users (because a lot of them are also Windows users).
If I defend that, am I seen as anti-Linux? Give me a break.
Defending Windows will not make you anti-Linux. You misunderstood me – I’m not implying a causal link here.
It’s not “people who defend Microsoft are anti-Linux because of that”, it’s “most people who defend MS here also seem to post anti-Linux messages”. It’s as simple as that.
Half-Life 2 spontaneously reboots my Windows 2000 PC at work. I’m not making this up. Windows 2000 is a great OS, very stable, but it does crash.
You do realize that when a 3d game causes your system to reboot, it’s way more than likely because of a problem with the video card, right?
But you missed my point. The point is not that people who choose to use Windows make a bad choice, is just that those who defend it on this website almost invariably (with a few exceptions) post FUD about Linux.
You can make that generalization about “Microsoft-defenders”, and I can turn it around on Linux advocates, and neither of us would be that much more right than the other.
If someone is guilty of making snide comments (zealots, communists, geeks, etc.) about the OS users, its Microsoft apologists against Linux users. Linux users will mostly criticize Microsoft, and sometimes Windows, but very rarely Windows users (because a lot of them are also Windows users).
Maybe you need to pay attention here a little more.
You do realize that when a 3d game causes your system to reboot, it’s way more than likely because of a problem with the video card, right?
We’re talking Dell hardware, here, not some hacked-together box.
BTW, you should let Tom K repond to the post that was adressed to him, though. It’s hard enough debating with two people at once, if you’re going to hijack his thread I’ll have to bow out gracefully! 😀
Seriously, I’ve already spent over my quota here tonight (gotta limit myself, or I get no work done!!)
I’ll pick up the discussion tomorrow.
Oh, and guys, don’t take anything I say personally.
Oh, and guys, don’t take anything I say personally.
Don’t worry, I’m not.
I only responded to you because I’ve had the same problem with HL2 and I know many others that have. It’s a very video intensive game and will push video cards to their limits, even in OEM boxes. I wasn’t trying to say in your specific case it was definitely the cause, but the most likely culprit.
Yes, I agree with you. In fact, video hardware seems to be the culprit in most Linux hangs as well. That said, I’ve never had a Linux system spontaneously reboot. I’ve always been able to salvage it using the Magic SysRq key combinations…
I’m not harping on Win2K, I actually like the OS a lot. I’m just a bit insulted that a game would somehow be able to spontaneously reboot my PC, especially since I have documents open (believe it or not, I had to run HL2 for work purposes, someone sent us a HL2 level as part of his portfolio).
Anyway, let’s all agree that we should not deride someone for the OS they use. We can agree to disagree on whether unfairly criticizing Microsoft is a bad thing… 🙂
// especially since I have documents open//
First, you probably shouldn’t run the most graphically-intense game on the market with any other apps open, and hogging your PC’s memory. Kinda asking for it.
Second … In my experience, HL2 runs better on XP than on the now-six-year-old Windows 2000. I’ve run it on both.
First, you probably shouldn’t run the most graphically-intense game on the market with any other apps open, and hogging your PC’s memory. Kinda asking for it.
Come on, I have 1 Gig of memory on my PC, are you telling me that having Word, Firefox, AlienBrain and Lotus Notes open at the same time is asking for it?
Hmmm. Then again, Lotus Notes…yeah, maybe I was a little! 😀
Second … In my experience, HL2 runs better on XP than on the now-six-year-old Windows 2000. I’ve run it on both.
Unfortunately I don’t get to choose when my OS is upgraded. I imagine it will be with the next hardware upgrade, but since I don’t do actual production work (I’m more of a manager-type) I don’t think this is going to happen for a while.
Oh well, after I restarted the PC, loading HL2 worked fine. I still think Steam is a pile of shiate anyway…
Fair enough.
Just remember it’s possible for a computer to reboot, running any OS, if something overheats
Sappy said what was on my mind. There’s no need for me to rehash it.
I disagree. Nearly every Windows user I know hates Windows. Many of them would buy a Mac if they didn’t think they were so expensive. When I suggest Linux, most of them either don’t know what it is, unsure what it does or are afraid it’s too complicated.
I don’t know where you are coming, but what you are saying is not true in most of the third world and as well in US. Nobody has any major show stoppers with MS products here. Yeah there are some problems, and almost every one of them learn to work around the problem. This is/will be the case with any OS/products. There will always be some problems and people will learn to work around it and live with it. Nothing that a friend in the neighborhood can’t solve. Do you mean to say your coveted Linux/OSX does not have any problems/issues. Yeah it might solve somebody’s spy ware/virus problem. But will it solve their hardware support or lack of application problem ? What good is to have the best OS in the world if it does not run your preferred application. Would you now ask them to change their applications too? What is the motivation for them to do so ? Will they save money ? No, they have already acquired their applications. So they won’t get a refund just because they started to use some other product. Once you know this truth what is the motivation to try and find a new OS/tool. Anyway even the other OS/Tool won’t promise 100% glitch free experience. So why not stick with what you have tried and majority use.
People have different priorities and different expectations out of tools they use. For majority of them MS OS/products seems to satisfy their needs quite well. So why would they change sides. Remember, to topple the incumbent you need to offer hugely higher value. Or bring some new, something innovative, that the incumbent can’t/won’t offer. None of these tools offer anything more then what MS products they currently own are offering. So why bother ?
I don’t know where you are coming, but what you are saying is not true in most of the third world and as well in US. Nobody has any major show stoppers with MS products here
Nice try but your’re full of it.
What you are saying is not true in most of the third world and as well in US. So I disagree with you. The difference is that I have proofs : the endless issues of Windows journals found in store, that endlessly explain how to do basic things in Windows, and how to work arounf all of its flaws.
The fact that you still have to wait to access lots of support centers for Windows, despite their number.
The fact that people resort to tell us that people will buy a new PC instead of trying to fix their Windows.
Yeah there are some problems, and almost every one of them learn to work around the problem. This is/will be the case with any OS/products. There will always be some problems and people will learn to work around it and live with it. Nothing that a friend in the neighborhood can’t solve
“some” problems. Minimizing the problem is not going to prove your point.
The BIG problem, you see, is that on Windows, the problem is ongoing endlessly.
Do you mean to say your coveted Linux/OSX does not have any problems/issues
It does not have endlessly ongoing problems, that’s a big difference.
Yeah it might solve somebody’s spy ware/virus problem. But will it solve their hardware support or lack of application problem ?
Yes it will. Will Windows do it ? No it won’t. My Mustek scanner is still unsupported on Windows XP (and never will be supported), and I still lack software that can make me run several simultaneous desktops. Your BS won’t go anywhere.
What good is to have the best OS in the world if it does not run your preferred application
I don’t know. Now, what good can be the worst OS in the world if it does not run your preferred application ?
Would you now ask them to change their applications too? What is the motivation for them to do so ? Will they save money ? No, they have already acquired their applications. So they won’t get a refund just because they started to use some other product. Once you know this truth what is the motivation to try and find a new OS/tool. Anyway even the other OS/Tool won’t promise 100% glitch free experience. So why not stick with what you have tried and majority use.
Because it does not work and you are tired of being screwed.
This simple answer answers nearly all of your stupid questions. If you didn’t forget 99+ % of reasons people have to get other applications, and if you were right, nobody would get any new app at this point of time. I just cited one motivation that worked for me, but there are tons of other ones.
Because you’re narrow minded does not make everyone like you.
People have different priorities and different expectations out of tools they use. For majority of them MS OS/products seems to satisfy their needs quite well
That’s false, and just an assumption of yours. Experience tells me that what satisfy the need of those users you talk about is the free labor geek in the neighboorhood. Given that I never saw one Windows user without pirated sofware, I fail to see how MS OS/products satisfy anyone. If it did they would pay for it.
So why would they change sides. Remember, to topple the incumbent you need to offer hugely higher value. Or bring some new, something innovative, that the incumbent can’t/won’t offer. None of these tools offer anything more then what MS products they currently own are offering. So why bother ?
Wrong. If there was a mean to enforce legit software instead of pirated ones, then it would be a very different story. I just have to look at the tons of people who complain about the Mac being more expensive than a PC, but who all seems to have bought Photoshop or MS Office.
Because when you think something’s value is worth its price, you buy it, right ?
Edited 2006-02-10 12:21
Amen!
I tried to argument below similar to your comment, but you put it both better in wording (and you were quicker 🙂 )
Regards Martin
Sorry for switching to rant mode, but :
First of all, neither GNOME nor KDE are Linux only (and a lot of other software that duplicates effort isn’t limited to linux either, just btw.). If the project members feel like sharing technology and not duplicating efforts, then (given their choosen licenses are compatible) THEY CAN !!! In most cases, where this doesn’t happen, there are reason for this, and if the only reason is the ego of the project members, than thats a big reason, because in many (but perhaps not most) cases ego is a pretty big motivation for starting a project.
Also, most projects accept pretty any help they get, so nobody is held from participating in an existing project, than rather start a new one. But it’s fun to do, you learn a lot, and most projects do not aim at taking over the market leadership. If a project is interesting enough for *the market* to get support and/or wider acceptance, then this is very likely to happen, this is called competition, and I’m perfectly aware, that this is a rather arcane concept in the current software market.
Sticking to the case of KDE vs. GNOME (I like a good flamewar like the next geek, but please don’t turn this into one, thank you) both desktops follow very different philosophies, I can’t see what good should come from a merge. Working at compability (which could be improved, no question about that, but thanks to efforts like freedesktop.org, something is happening in this area) is indeed needed, but I have the feeling, that most computer users are used to the “there must be one application per task with no alternatives” feeling because one software vendor has a market share of 90%+ in the key segments.
Which is, but that is merrely my personal opinion, a big hinderance for development and innovation.
And in reply to the message below :
You do realize, that there are legal problems (esp. patent difficulties), that stand in the way of providing out-of-the-box solutions for playing mp3’s in some countries, do you? If you do not want to risk using the linux mp3 codecs that the rest of the world uses, then moving your music collection to a legally less problematic format (ogg comes to mind) is probably a better solution than ranting.
PS: Edited some typos, sorry, English isn’t my mother tongue
Edited 2006-02-09 19:38
The problem (with respect to non-technical users) is not how easy it is to install mp3 support (or do any other task), but whether (a) users realize it’s possible, (b) it’s easy for them to find out how to do it, and (c) it doesn’t scare them or sound daunting.
For example: Suppose a user opens his music player and attempts to play an mp3. If the player says, “Unrecognized file type,” the user may conclude that his music doesn’t work with Linux. If, on the other hand, the player says, “I don’t know how to play this file, but click here to install support for it,” then everything is fine.
All that said: Can someone elaborate on the legal issues surrounding the mp3 and Flash patents? I know that several distros don’t include them, but for example the last version of SUSE I played with (9.3 I think) did. Does that mean SUSE paid someone a license fee?
All that said: Can someone elaborate on the legal issues surrounding the mp3 and Flash patents? I know that several distros don’t include them, but for example the last version of SUSE I played with (9.3 I think) did. Does that mean SUSE paid someone a license fee?
Probably, yes. It means that these are only available in the paid-for version, not in the “download freely” version (of which I’m not sure there’s one).
Basically, it is illegal to freely redistribute the Flash player/plugin and the mp3 codec, even if they can be downloaded for free from Macromedia/whoever owns the mp3 patents.
Basically, it is illegal to freely redistribute the Flash player/plugin and the mp3 codec
I think the mp3 plugin for GStreamer created by Fluendo is actually free for download
1. Its irrelevant , there will always be somekind of political war about something. There is no duplicating effort , because there is MORE then two project working on the desktop : http://xwinman.org/
and they all cooperate when its of value ( Xserver , desktop customization arts , Icons , PIM network standard ) , also frankly competition and choice is really good , Because if only one choice and one option whas availaible all those who dont like it would be stuck using it. There is no KDE and GNOME war , the KDE and GNOME supporter are really known if your not a newbie , the problem is people choose a company and then a desktop , when it should be choose what you like and see who support it.
2. Your talking about integration and desktop customization and mixing the two , as shown by Novell recently they do work on it from tiume to time , so does Red Hat with bluecurve , Mandriva with galaxy , etc …etc. The problem is that they dont have the 250 million in budget specificaly for that , that Apple and Miccrosoft have , but :
http://www.kde-look.org/
http://art.gnome.org/
http://themes.freshmeat.net/
The community compensate.
The real problem with Microsoft is its hold on the hardware market. Parts , Device , driver and access to it. They get access to the prototype years in advance and often are the only one to get acces to it from the OEM , ODM and resallers. You know like Airport extreme , Broadcom chipset , Printer , New Graphic cards , even some older cards.
Until now GNU/Linux as been a parasite on others hardware , We dont have any company that is 100% behind GNU/Linux on the desktop that is large enough to make a real impact.
Give the right budget to the right people and things wil start to sparks. If people continue buying MAC and PC from 100% apple and 100% mac , the reality stay the same , and if you only support the distribution that only really support the company , then your out of luck.
You need to read something other than an Internet forum.
1.) There’s no war. The political war ended when Trolltech made QT GPL compatible. That’s ancient (5 year old) history.
Besides, you forgot a few: Xfce, Enlightenment, and boxes.
Effort duplication is not a bad thing. There’s a definite limit to how many people can work on one project and have it still work at all efficiently, especially if they differ greatly in design ideals.
What really needs to happen is exactly what is happening: freedesktop.org and standards. If they agree on standards switching desktops and using the same apps become painless.
Today my only frustration is that KDE eats 300MB of my hard disk to give me about 3 programs I use. I could cut that down to around 100MB, but still, 100MB for 3 programs!
2.) This is actually completely fallacious. Microsoft has spent the majority of its later life creating developer tools. Its two best products are .Net and Visual Studio! The only thing that compares in quality to these two is: a.) The NT Kernel, b.) Excel. And Excel is definitely going off momentum from over a decade ago!
If you look at the development environment for Unix you’ll find much more effort in userland tools than developer tools.
The two best IDE’s I’ve seen are Anjuta 2(eternally in beta it seems) and Eclipse (the slowest bloatware I’ve ever used). This is probably because Unix development is anti-IDE; it goes against the do one thing well principle.
What is RMS known for? Emacs. Is Emacs a devel tool? Yes. But it is also a userland tool, it edits plain text, latex, html, and it even does e-mail. Gnome, KDE, Enlightnment, xine, xanim (dead I think), mplayer, mail utilities (12 or so?), browsers (epiphany, firefox, mozilla, galeon, konqueror, dillo, lynx and variants), amarok, rhythmbox, rox, konqueror (fm), nautilus, openoffice, abiword, koffice, the GIMP, gqview, feh (small program), evince, xpdf, remotedesktop, vnc, gaim, kopete, k3b, kaffeine, xchat, ksirc, irssi, gnomesword, bibletime, kedit (doesn’t even do syntax highlights), banshee, composite managers, dia, kompose, privateer-remake and every other game.
You’re telling me that a company which can’t make a system for mobile devices that doesn’t randomly lockup and drain batteries, currently has the most obnoxious media player (10), left their browser untouched for years, won’t fix the locked out window minimization problem, can’t figure out virtual desktops, won’t let you change the start button to be smaller, won’t let you make multiple panels, etc. You’re telling me this company has more attention to userland detail?
Come on! They offer almost as little customization as Gnome, and they didn’t do it by removing stuff
.
Microsoft is a platform and Office software company (with other losing strategies, for now). The only quality non-techie tools they ship are in Office.
Maybe they’ll fix some of that with IE7, the new media player, and Vista.
Come on! They offer almost as little customization as Gnome, and they didn’t do it by removing stuff
.
They make the user experience so wonderful, nobody really needs to customize that much.
1. Political wars between projects. Stop duplicating efforts, and just get your act together to make a few really awesome pieces of software. The KDE/GNOME war is just one of these.
I disagree: competition brings innovation, which is quite clear when one looks at the rapid pace of improvement for both KDE and GNOME.
Choice is a strength, not a weakness. I have never heard anyone say that they wouldn’t use Linux because there was too much choice of DEs/WMs/apps. I have, on the other hand, heard people say they really needed to use app X or hardware Y with Linux, as the article states.
2. Developing a system for developers, all while ignoring the little details that make an OS pleasant for the dull, non-technology-oriented general populace.
Again, GNOME/KDE are very usable from a non-technology-oriented user’s point of view. I’ve tested this many times, with a good variety of user types. Once they get past the initial hesitation (which is normal when you deal with something new) both DEs are quite newbie-friendly.
So I do not believe that the issues you’ve stated actually matter, especially not when compared to the arguments put forth by the article.
You can blame Microsoft all you like, but the truth of it is that we’re not innocent either.
What do you mean, “we”?
You can blame Microsoft all you like, but the truth of it is that we’re not innocent either. 😛 —Tom K
I clicked on your profile thinking that you might have been a friend of mine who runs a computer shop for a local private school’s network, pleasantly surprised to see my good friend Tom talking about Linux–only to see the following in your bio section…
Linux is f***ing garbage. —Tom K
So not only are you not my friend, you’re not a friend of Linux either.. you’re a ####ing hypocrite pretending to be one of ‘us’ who’d like to see a free (as in beer and as in freedom) desktop operating system take hold.
Nice try Tom K, but there is no we here, just someone who doesn’t care about integrity or misrepresenting themselves in bid to destroy something that hurts no one and benefits many.
–bornagainpenguin
“–bornagainpenguin”
Did you lose your start button, and now you want it back?
I clicked on your profile thinking that you might have been a friend of mine who runs a computer shop for a local private school’s network, pleasantly surprised to see my good friend Tom talking about Linux–only to see the following in your bio section…
Linux is f***ing garbage. –Tom K
I think Tom K is the poster formerly known as “Linux is Poo” – which, of course, tends to prove my earlier assertion that people who defend Windows here also tend to post anti-Linux message. He threw a hissy fit over this accusation, but in his case it’s plainly true – unless he tries to argue that saying “Linux is f***ing garbage” is not indicative of an anti-Linux stance. You never know with these MS apologists, logic is not their forte…
Well that’s one person, so I don’t think it’s fair to back up your assertion with that alone.
I’m not trying to argue whether your assertion is true or not here, just saying one person doesn’t change anything.
And for future reference, I would find it insulting if you called me a “MS apologist” simply for defending Windows and/or Microsoft.
Well that’s one person, so I don’t think it’s fair to back up your assertion with that alone.
I’m not basing my judgement on Tom K/Linux is Poo. I’m simply noting that he did not dispel my impressions at all. I could do some research and come up with a more scientific assertion, but I really can’t be bothered (I work full-time and have a writing project on the side).
And for future reference, I would find it insulting if you called me a “MS apologist” simply for defending Windows and/or Microsoft.
I promise I won’t call you a MS apologist if you defend Windows. However, if you were to defend Microsoft, then by definition you would be a MS apologist, wouldn’t you?
From http://www.m-w.com:
Main Entry: apol·o·gist
Pronunciation: &-‘pä-l&-jist
Function: noun
: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something
I make a point of using that word to make sure that I don’t insult anyone (instead of calling people “zealots” or “fanboys”). In any case, it is a lot less insulting that “jerk.” 🙂
Ok, but why use that term in the first place? It comes off as insulting. I wouldn’t call you a “OSS/Linux/Whatever Apologist” because it gives off an insulting vibe.
And yeah, I apologized for the jerk thing. “Rude” will be used in the future (if at all).
Ok, but why use that term in the first place?
Because Microsoft acts in a predatory way towards Linux, and as a member of the Linux community I take it personally.
Calling those who defend the abusive monopoly (that actively tries to make my life harder than it needs to be) apologists is pretty mild, in addition to being etymologically accurate.
If that insults you, I suggest you start growing a thicker skin…
But I’m not Microsoft. Their actions do not reflect me.
I have very thick skin, trust me. That’s not the point however. Calling someone that serves no purpose. If someone is defending Microsoft and/or Windows, calling them an MS Apologist is redundant. I can see no reason for using that term other then as a light jab at someone and in a way trying to out them to others who read your post.
Yeah, that probably seems kind of odd. I just don’t understand the purpose behind it.
If someone is defending Microsoft and/or Windows, calling them an MS Apologist is redundant.
Windows has nothing to do with it.
I can see no reason for using that term other then as a light jab at someone
That sure took you a long time…
I don’t use those words lightly, mind you. I keep them for notorious MS apologists. It’s just a way to characterize certain types of poster to this site, you know, those who will always take MS’s side against its critics, but will never admit to bias. The kind that claims that they are critical of MS as well, but really only are when they’re called out on it, and usually in very timid terms. Those who find it normal for Microsoft to abuse its quasi-monopoly powers because of extreme free-market ideologies.
MS doesn’t need anyone to defend it against threats, they can (and do) take care of that themselves. Those who do it anyway, in my view, can be accurately described as MS apologists.
those who will always take MS’s side against its critics,
Too bad I don’t, so I guess you can’t call me that then
MS doesn’t need anyone to defend it against threats, they can (and do) take care of that themselves. Those who do it anyway, in my view, can be accurately described as MS apologists.
That’s ridiculous to me. I don’t think people should keep quiet because Microsoft “can take care of themselves.” Them being right doesn’t change because they have a bad history. But hey, if you really feel that way, go for it. You’re just going to step on a lot of toes that way.
Too bad I don’t, so I guess you can’t call me that then
Neither have I… 🙂
But hey, if you really feel that way, go for it. You’re just going to step on a lot of toes that way.
That’s fine with me.
That said, the fact that I’m critical of Microsoft’s tactics in the OS and Office markets doesn’t prevent me from recognizing the quality of their products (Office in particular) nor from buying stuff made by them (such as an Xbox and Xbox games).
They are also very good to work with for games development (for the Xbox/Xbox 360). In fact, they are by far the best of the three manufacturers (MS, Sony, Nintendo) in that regards.
I think Tom K is the poster formerly known as “Linux is Poo” – which, of course, tends to prove my earlier assertion that people who defend Windows here also tend to post anti-Linux message. He threw a hissy fit over this accusation, but in his case it’s plainly true – unless he tries to argue that saying “Linux is f***ing garbage” is not indicative of an anti-Linux stance. —archiesteel
This wouldn’t surprise me at all these days. I’m of the opinion that Linux is Poo, Tom K, and several other accounts are all sock-puppets for the same person. Look at the following post by moreglum666:
“–bornagainpenguin”
Did you lose your start button, and now you want it back? —moreglum666
Now why in the world would this moreglum666 call me out, when he and I have never exchanged words on any subject before (at least not that I know of) and make such a childish statement– especially given his usual quaility of posting on OSNews.com which is usally much higher than this– unless moreglum666 is nothing more than a sock-puppet for those other three accounts?
[shakes his head] Pitiful really… just pittiful. If you have stong opinions you should stand by them, not try to create an army of zombies to agree with your every word.
Obviously these guys are either 13 year olds with nothing better to do than lamely attempt to start flame wars or they’re the newest Astroturfers from Microsoft (you’d think they could get better for their money tho’ I mean really!)
Not that all of this matters. I’m moving to Linux or SkyOS as soon as is humanly possible. If not those two then probably I’ll run over to Haiku once it gets ready–whatever I have to do… I’ll not be giving Microsoft another dime. And this is someone who bought their copy of Windows XP on the day of release…
–bornagainpenguin
Guy, you’ve got to relax.
I’m myself, I’m morglum (not moreglum), and I’m not any other poster.
I thought the term born again penguin is kind of funny. The term is typically used by born again christians and that was my reference point
Its just the internet, os wars arn’t important and the weekend is at hand. Enjoy it. Theres nothing on osnews that warrants anyone getting upset.
Yeah because we all know adults are not capable of being immature. Why don’t you stick to not attacking that which you are ignorant of?
I’m sure I’ve seen a thread where LinuxisPoo came out as a BSD fan, yeah, that suprised me too.
If you’re going to blame office for Microsoft’s operating system monopoly, you have probably spent too much time working in your office. The convenience and options provided by momentum should be pretty high on your list.
The biggest problem I see at least toward the end of the article is that Mr. Canfield use generalized statements about Linux instead of getting to a specific distro.
Linux on the laptop won’t recognize the built-in touchpad. Also, the laptop’s Linux can’t detect wired versus battery power. Finally, there’s not a Linux driver for the PC’s built-in modem.
It would have been nice if he specified the distro, not just MS sabotages Linux professional do to by being to generic in their speech. For instances I have used Mepis and it recognized the touch pad perfectly, no problem with wired v. battery either. The win-modems are a different story.
I don’t see win-modems being a factor for long as DSL in some cases cost less then dial-up.
It would have been nice if he specified the distro, not just MS sabotages Linux professional do to by being to generic in their speech. For instances I have used Mepis and it recognized the touch pad perfectly, no problem with wired v. battery either.
I agree, Kubuntu automatically configured the touchpad on my laptop, and has no problem detecting wired vs. battery power either.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did the article just blame Microsoft because Open Office wouldn’t open up some Word documents? It is that company that decided to switch to another office suite. They should have been more thorough in their compatability testing. If you notice they didn’t have problems opening the tables and formatting in Word, they had the issues in Open Office. Thats not something I would call brain washing especially when its an error on the part of the company.
Now onto the hardware side of things. Again putting blame on Microsoft for hardware companies not releasing drivers for linux. Releasing drivers for Windows would make sense since most of their revenue would come from devices to be used on Windows. If the costs outweigh the benefits in creating a linux driver it just isn’t going to happen. But you can still contact the hardware company and ask them to make a driver. But before you do this you better have a good reason why they should. Just saying because its linux and you want to play quake 9 with your new joystick controller isn’t going to cut it.
If the costs outweigh the benefits in creating a linux driver it just isn’t going to happen. But you can still contact the hardware company and ask them to make a driver. But before you do this you better have a good reason why they should.
Because it takes next to no effort to release their source code and/or specs. Any extra sales for no effort means the benefits outweigh the costs.
If they consider their drivers proprietary, that suggests that it’s the software and not the hardware that does the important work, and who really wants that?
The problem is they may not want to release specs or source code. Within those specs and source code could be trade secrets, which is the reason given by a few vendors. And like you said, if they release the proprietary driver they will be shunned by the open source community. So where is the benefit for them?
You must admit it does take some effort to release the source code. They may need to package additional code not entirely related. And write documentation. And they can’t do a half-assed job about it, or you’d criticize them about it.
But has it even crossed your mind that they simply don’t give a rat’s ass about linux? Not everybody thinks 24×7 about linux and open source.
and why exactly should they release it ? its their code. They wrote it and they are prefectly allowed to do whatever they wish to do with it. Will you relent if somebody forced you to go against your wish to release code under GPL ? What they do with the code they have written is absolutely nobody business other then their’s. What you, as a consumer can do, is to avoid doing business with companies whose business practices you don’t approve. That is completely within your limits. Asking somebody else do something they don’t wish to do, looks a lot like authoritarian
This article is outdated, it describes situation with linux drivers few years old. Significant amount of work has been done since to improve drivers and power management on linux desktops, ranging from kernel and daemons to user interfaces.
USB support is very good now, most devices work (printers, scanners, cameras, input devices, usb audio, usb hard drives and dvd burners, USB DVB), either with vanilla kernel or additional driver compiled and installed (e.g. usb quickcam or ati remote wonder over USB). There’s problem with modems but they are becoming (finally) a thing of past, and wireless problems are currently at least partially solved with ndiswrapper.
I think the desktop part is there however, its the applications I see as the problem. Everyone wants to build a MS Office clone. Why? Why not be innovative and build something better so that people will WANT to use Linux. Look at Apple and thier applications; Pages, Numbers, Garage Band. They think outside of the box, just enough outside the box that people become wow’d over it.
Most of the applications on Linux are missing some simple features that could be a big boon to adoption. How about a unified spell checker that is the same in all applications [text boxes/text areas] that has the words that I tought it from another application. A contact manager that so I can simply choose a contact and insert it into any text box/text area. Simple servies like these that work in all applications and innovation in applications will want to make people move.
Just because I can have a Word compatable editor on Linux gives me no reason to leave Windows.
Amen. Exactly my thoughts. Why not something innovative for the users. Almost any new and innovative application gets either written for Windows or gets ported natively. So why will anybody bother to look at Linux. I think its unfortunate we are still caught up in the act of copying UNIX. I sincerely hope some other OS should have caught up instead of Linux. Something which does things differently
KDE vs Gnome aside, I think an issue is the lack of a way for software makers to release “one binary to cover them all.” It’s like every distro has their own system; Fedora RPMs are different from Suse RPMs are different from Debs (which also differ between distros), etc. A higher lowest-common-denominator than source would be handy.
It’s easy to blame others and not accept any responsibility. It’s easy to say it’s good enough. It’s easy to tell people they are stupid when they try to use an alternative and don’t like it or are confused.
As much as I dislike the guy, Asa Dotzler has a lot of insightful things to say about the Linux Desktop.
Here is my 2 cents on the subject.
http://rjdohnert.blogspot.com/2006/02/linux-desktop-adoption-sabota…
If the kernel hackers don’t keep changing the frigging kernel-driver interface so often, may be some of the device makers will create Linux drivers. Every other OS maker tries to keep the interfaces relatively stable, but not the Linux crowd! Linux deserves all of its device problems. No need to blame MS here.
If the kernel hackers don’t keep changing the frigging kernel-driver interface so often, may be some of the device makers will create Linux drivers
BS. Kernel 2.4 hasn’t changed in years and still has none of the drivers you talk about.
Every other OS maker tries to keep the interfaces relatively stable, but not the Linux crowd!
That’s not true, but you sure love to pull things out of your arse.
You obviously never wondered why lots of hardware have different drivers for Win9x, WinME, NT4, Win2000, WinXP and Win2003.
Being ignorant does not make you right you know.
As well, Linux crowd tries to keep the interfaces stable, but they won’t stop going forward for non cooperative hardware vendors. Strangely enough, all the hardware vendors for which Linux counts never had problems to provides what Linux crowd needs : specs or open-source drivers.
Linux deserves all of its device problems. No need to blame MS here
Linux has no device problems. You meant Windows I think. Go blame MS then.
Linux only has unsupported hardware.
“BS. Kernel 2.4 hasn’t changed in years and still has none of the drivers you talk about.”
Bull. Kernel-driver interface in Linux can and does change even with point releases. There’s no 2.4, only some 2.4.x.
Here’s what one of your own (Linux sympathizers) says in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/09/02/driver_ease.ht…
“Although the Linux kernel is an impressive and stable feat of distributed engineering, the incompatibility between different stable point versions of the kernel hampers the Driver on Demand concept. You could compile a driver for 2.6.5 and it would probably not work on 2.6.10 if you simply loaded the precompiled binary module; you would need to recompile the driver for each kernel version.
This problem worsens when you consider furnishing a driver for all distributions. Not only do you have the official 2.6 tree to consider, but you also have the slight modifications that different distributions add to the kernels. If you want to distribute a precompiled binary driver, you’ll need to provide a binary for each point version in the kernel for each distribution. This can amount to hundreds of modules for a single stable kernel release.
The reason a single binary driver will not work across a kernel series is the lack of internal API and ABI (application binary interface) compatibility in the kernel.”
For a tiny portion of desktop share, how many vendors will go to so much trouble?