Submitted by The 17″ MacBook Pro has just been released. The 17″ model has Firewire 800 and 8x dual layer Superdrive, both of which the 15.4″ version lacks. The new MacBook Pro was presented during the NAB2006. The machine will cost $2799,- in the US, or round and about EUR 2879,- (differs per country) in the EU, or GBP 1999,- if you live in the UK.
Nothing unexpected, but it is good to see fw800 again. BTW have you guys noticed that this one is available for shipping already?!
Since there’s all that extra room on either side of the keyboard, why not include a full-size keyboard and a 10-key pad? Why does the 17-inch model have to use the same cramped keyboard that the smaller models use? That small keyboard looks odd on a laptop that big.
Other than that, very very nice! But I’ll never be able to afford one of these babies unless one happens to “fall off a truck”. That happens more often than you’d think, though. 😉
probably to keep costs down. the more parts that are standard across machines, the cheaper they are to produce, support, replace, etc etc.
none the less, youre right.. but economicly it just doesn’t make sense
… and many of my colleagues are also.
The problem’s just that apple products are designed to meet personal preferences of a single particular individual (who doesn’t want numpad, or, until recently, didn’t need more than 1 button on his mouse).
Poor myself, I want my laptop keyboard to be full AND illuminated. Bad luck, there is no such laptop in existance…
HP dv8000t 17″
Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo processor T2600 (2.16 GHz)
2.0GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x1024MB)
17.0″ WSXGA BrightView Widescreen (1680×1050)
120 GB 5400 RPM SATA Hard Drive
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Home Edition with SP2
FREE Upgrade DVD /-RW/R CD-RW Combo w/Double Layer
FREE Upgrade to Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 3945ABG w/Bluetooth
256MB NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) Go 7400
$1,929.99
The computing world isn’t waiting around for Apple to sell them overpriced x86 boxes.
And with iPod sales slowing massively…
Can it book OS X and Windows and Linux?
Can it book OS X and Windows and Linux?
no sir it can’t book os x and windows
boot – yeah sure, why not ?
Licensing issues mainly.
“The computing world isn’t waiting around for Apple to sell them overpriced x86 boxes. ”
Yes, the world would be better off saving money and going with Dell. Oh wait….
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/cto_xpsnb_m1…
If you don’t want to follow the link, let me save you the trouble. The Intel Core Duo XPS laptops cost $2,600 to $3,855. I don’t think you realize how expensive the Core Duo chip is compared to the G4 1.67 GHz in the old 17 inch powerbook have.
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/notebooks?c=u…
Inspiron E1705 : 999$
Inspiron E1505 : 799$
BTW he showed a Intel Core duo system too from HP. Saying they dont come with OS X + software and same hardware is a valid argument , your point that the core DUO is pricier when Apple deliver it when its INTEL made and everyone use them is just bulshit.
BTW DELL offered to ship MAC OS X on its hardware , Apple refused.
That E-series machine you linked to is a full 60% thicker than the Macbook. Is your point that you can get a lot cheaper machine if you give up form-factor? Sure, I don’t think anybody would doubt that, but as someone who has done the whole “cheap Dell laptop” thing, let me tell you that it’s not quite the bargain it seems to be at first.
Compare the price on something like a Thinkpad to a comparable Macbook Pro, and come back with that.
For example, you can get a 14.1″ ThinkPad with 2.0 GHz Core Duo and X1400 graphics for $2200. The Thinkpad has a smaller screen, slower GPU, and smaller hard drive (or slower, depending on which Macbook HDD option you pick). On the other hand, it’s a bit smaller and lighter, and $300 cheaper. Seems like an entirely reasonable trade-off to me.
The XPS notebook comparison is even more entertaining. The *cheapest* XPS model, the M1710, costs $3400 when outfitted with a comparable CPU, HDD, and wireless options as the Macbook Pro 17″. For the extra $600, you can a much faster GPU, and a higher-res screen, but a notebook that is substantially larger and heaver. Again, the trade-off doesn’t seem that bad, does it?
Or, consider Sony’s VGN-FE590. Outfitted with comparable features to the 15.4″ Macbook Pro, it costs about $2200. That’s about $300 less than the Macbook Pro for a closely comparable machine. Is a $300 “OS X tax” too much? I don’t think so. Certainly, it’s a hell of a lot more reasonable than it was for the PowerPC machines. True, the machines themselves haven’t gotten any cheaper, but the CPUs, instead of competing with the ones in bargain-basement PC laptops, are now comparable to those in the top PC laptops. When compared to these top PC laptops, the Apple laptop prices are quite reasonable indeed.
“That E-series machine you linked to is a full 60% thicker than the Macbook.”
No , I dont know where you get your data either , feel free to provide them.
“is your point that you can get a lot cheaper machine if you give up form-factor?””
No , not at all , its actually quite clear what my point was , that the dual core is not the only motivator in the high price the Macbook pro demand and that Dell do offer cheaper Dual core solution.
Now that I cleared that up lets entertain your other point.
“Is your point that you can get a lot cheaper machine if you give up form-factor? Sure, I don’t think anybody would doubt that, but as someone who has done the whole “cheap Dell laptop” thing, let me tell you that it’s not quite the bargain it seems to be at first. ”
So your claiming that the Intel core Duo that Apple get are different in form factor and in price to the one Dell gets ? Your also claiming that because you bought cheap Dell model in the past that the newer higher end model with intel Core DUO will be the same ?
” Compare the price on something like a Thinkpad to a comparable Macbook Pro, and come back with that. ”
Why ? Because rayiner think and said so ? Its of no value to me at all , if I feel that comparing a Dell to a Apple MacBook pro is interesting and that sharing that information is also valid in my view I will do so , I will also add that your thinking , again , that the Intel core Duo that IBM get differ from the One Dell and Apple get both in form factor and in price ?
“you can get a 14.1″ ThinkPad with 2.0 GHz Core Duo and X1400 graphics for $2200”
Again your suggesting that Dell Core Duo differ from the One IBM and Apple get ? Or you simply changing the point of the discussion to show that if you use other parts you can come up with a smaller price ?
“The XPS notebook comparison is even more entertaining.”
Are you again claiming that the Intel core Duo that the XPS get is different in price and in form factor then the one Apple get ? Or are you again changing the subject …
“The *cheapest* XPS model, the M1710, costs $3400 when outfitted with a comparable CPU, HDD, and wireless options as the Macbook Pro 17″ ”
No , but nice try …
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/cto_xpsnb_m1…
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/…
“For the extra $600, you can a much faster GPU, and a higher-res screen, but a notebook that is substantially larger and heaver. Again, the trade-off doesn’t seem that bad, does it? ”
You need to really look closer , because your just talking hardware , I suppose , you missed quite a lot on both side.
“Or, consider Sony’s VGN-FE590. Outfitted with comparable features to the 15.4″ Macbook Pro”
Really ?
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/U…
Nope
“That’s about $300 less than the Macbook Pro for a closely comparable machine. ”
Nope , see above
“Is a $300 “OS X tax” too much? ”
Yes. But the Macbook pro come with more then just Mac OS X as a differentiator.
“I don’t think so.”
Thanks for sharing , but how can I put it gently , your false , erronous , personnal opinions is of absolutely no value to me …
“Certainly, it’s a hell of a lot more reasonable than it was for the PowerPC machines.”
Cant compare Apple to oranges …
“True, the machines themselves haven’t gotten any cheaper”
Around the same price , but offering more hardware and software and service , sorry I have to disagree with your false conclusion.
“but the CPUs, instead of competing with the ones in bargain-basement PC laptops, are now comparable to those in the top PC laptops.”
No , your tottaly wrong , they are the same , Intel core Duo from Apple , IBM , Gateway , HP , Sony , Dell , etc are all the same and come from the same vendor they all get it around the same price too.
“When compared to these top PC laptops, the Apple laptop prices are quite reasonable indeed.”
Not on comparable hardware only. Not because of the Intel core Duo either. The Macbook pro as more hardware solution and as more software and a different OS , thats why it cost more not because of the price of Intel core DUO.
If one remove the similar hardware and the Mac OS X OS , you still have tons of other stuff :
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/whatsinside.html
In other words , The Intel Core DUO as absolutely Zero influence on the price difference as both have it , and its exatly the same part and Dell will offer it in cheaper model too.
You can keep bulshiting yourself that the model you offered compared , but last I looked they dont come with the same hardware , Mac OS X and its software and service and they cant be made to legally triple boot MAC OS X , Windows MCE 2005 , and GNU/Linux , etc …
“the Apple laptop prices are quite reasonable indeed.”
No , for 2,699.00 you can get more hardware that is faster from other vendor , you can get cheaper model too , its the overall value you get for 2,699.00 that is hard to beat.
No , I dont know where you get your data either , feel free to provide them.
From Dell’s web-page. The E1705 is 1.6″ thick. The Macbook Pro is 1.0″ thick. Hence the Dell is 60% thicker, right?
So your claiming that the Intel core Duo that Apple get are different in form factor and in price to the one Dell gets ?
Hardly. However, the machine that Apple puts them in is quite a bit different in form factor and thus in price.
Your also claiming that because you bought cheap Dell model in the past that the newer higher end model with intel Core DUO will be the same ?
I bought a fairly high-end Dell laptop a few years ago (an Inspiron 8200, their top consumer model at the time). It cost about twice as much as the machines you linked to. I also had a newer Inspiron (I don’t remember the model, it was one of the gray and blue ones) at work. Neither machine is something I’d purchase for myself again.
While Dell’s latest cheap laptops might be completely different, I have a hard time believing the economics of the market have changed so much in three years that Dell can now afford to put quality case materials into a machine that costs half as much as my Inspiron did. There is a recent macnn thread in which people have posted pictures of themselves standing on their Thinkpads and Macbooks. My Inspiron’s lid flexes so much just sitting in a bag that the track nub leaves marks on the screen.
Why ? Because rayiner think and said so ? Its of no value to me at all , if I feel that comparing a Dell to a Apple MacBook pro is interesting and that sharing that information is also valid in my view
Not because I say so, but because comparing the prices of completely different products doesn’t give insight into anything. A Cessna costs a lot less than an F22 Raptor — what insight does that knowledge afford you? They’re two completely different planes for two completely different buyers.
Regarding the links to the machines: did you even try to configure them equally? The cheapest XPS notebook is $2600, yes, but that’s a completely different configuration. Bump the processor up to 2.16 GHz, add in Bluetooth, a remote, and a 100GB 7200 RPM hard drive, and the cost goes up to $3393. For almost $600 extra, you get a faster GPU, but a machine that has no integrated camera, and is bigger and heavier to boot.
Really ?
Um, did you even try and configure the two machines the same???
No , your tottaly wrong , they are the same , Intel core Duo from Apple , IBM , Gateway , HP , Sony , Dell , etc are all the same and come from the same vendor they all get it around the same price too.
I didn’t say otherwise.
As for the rest of your post, it hardly makes any sense at all. Of course everyone gets Core Duos for roughly the same price — what is the point in you saying so? Of course you can get a cheaper laptop if it has less features, again, what is the point in saying so?
“From Dell’s web-page. The E1705 is 1.6″ thick. The Macbook Pro is 1.0″ thick. Hence the Dell is 60% thicker, right? ”
If you whant to categorize it as 60% thicker that way , I prefer the total space volume. The Mac Book pro is bit larger but slimer in height if thats not changed.
“However, the machine that Apple puts them in is quite a bit different in form factor and thus in price.”
Its whats inside + software and service that make it at that price. The form could account for a small part of it but not the 900$ difference.
“I bought a fairly … myself again. ”
Personnal preference and older machine , I also pointed those other machine as a reference that the Dual core is not the reason why they ( macbook pro ) are pricier also that the XPS is not the only one to get them.
“While Dell’s … as much as my Inspiron did. ”
8200 whas made in 2002 ,
http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/notebooks?c=c…
you see any model that look like any you owned previously ? No thats because they improved there casing so did the Apple one too.
“There is a … leaves marks on the screen. ”
I dont think the Dell people had that kind of test in mind when they designed there laptop.
“Not because I say so, but because comparing the prices of completely different products doesn’t give insight into anything.”
Comparing parts , intel core duo is going to be the same across the board.
“A Cessna costs a lot less than an F22 Raptor — what insight does that knowledge afford you?”
I can buy more cesna with a hell lot less money …
“Regarding the links to the machines: did you even try to configure them equally? ”
Apple dont have the part Dell do , and Dell dont offer the parts Apple do , its pointless , please explain to me how I can have a magsafe and webcam in an xps or other Dell model ?
“Bump the processor up to 2.16 GHz, add in Bluetooth, a remote, and a 100GB 7200 RPM hard drive”
I tried adding Mac OS X and mag safe and webcam and bonjour , etc … but the Dell rep said where not Apple …
” For almost $600 extra, you get a faster GPU, but a machine that has no integrated camera, and is bigger and heavier to boot. ”
Tried to play oblivion or any PC game on that MacBook Pro ?
“Um, did you even try and configure the two machines the same??? ”
I am going to wait for the Dell price team to adapt to it first.
“I didn’t say otherwise.”
That whas my point , that the MacBook pro whas not priced higher vs the HP only because of the core Duo and that Dell had cheaper one if all you wanted was the CPU.
“As for the rest of your post, it hardly makes any sense at all.”
Really , It rather prooved that there whas no point in making a comparaison on anything you offered.
“Of course everyone gets Core Duos for roughly the same price”
Hence its not what make the Macbook Pro be priced higher …
“Of course you can get a cheaper laptop if it has less features, again, what is the point in saying so?”
I was only talking about the Dual core , you where the one to try and put me on the spot , your problem is you dont know all that is in the MacBook pro and you dont know the XPS that well either.
“again, what is the point in saying so?”
It show that the Dual core dont add 900$ to the price of the machine all by itself … Because hopefully you where not trying to compare a MacBook pro offer as a gaming machine contender that would do well against any XPS offer …
If you whant to categorize it as 60% thicker that way , I prefer the total space volume.
This is stupid. What other way is there to categorize thickness than the actual thickness?
Its whats inside + software and service that make it at that price. The form could account for a small part of it but not the 900$ difference.
Even ignoring OS X, the Macbook is comparably priced to other machines in its price class. The 1″ form-factor might not add $900 to the materials cost, but it does add a very large amount to the market price, based on what people are willing to pay for machines that thin.
Personnal preference and older machine
Dell’s older machines (my XPS D300) are a lot higher quality then their newer ones. And “personal preference” has jack to do with things. Dell uses cheap plastics in their machines, plain and simple.
I dont think the Dell people had that kind of test in mind when they designed there laptop.
What the hell do you mean? You don’t think they intended on people closing the lids when they designed the machines?
I can buy more cesna with a hell lot less money …
And a fleet of 10,000 Cessna’s as air superiority fighters does what for you? It’s a completely pointless statement.
Tried to play oblivion or any PC game on that MacBook Pro ?
Since the Macs can run Windows…
I am going to wait for the Dell price team to adapt to it first.
What does that even mean?
Really , It rather prooved that there whas no point in making a comparaison on anything you offered.
The machines I used as comparisons are ones similar to the Macbook Pro. When deciding between a Macbook Pro and a Windows machine, these will be the machines in the comparison, not machines like the E1705. The E1705 you linked to was the pointless comparison — if you’re looking for a 1″ laptop, you won’t want the E1705, and if you’re in the market for a $1000 laptop, you’re not looking at the Macbook.
Thickness :
“the dimension through an object as opposed to its length or width”
“the Macbook is comparably priced to other machines in its price class. ”
No , its better priced. For the moment.
“The 1″ form-factor might not … willing to pay for machines that thin. ”
I agree , but how is it related to me saying the MacBook price being higher is not due to the Dual core ? Its not , you keep introducing comparaison and your own points.
“Dell’s older machines (my XPS D300) are a lot higher quality then their newer ones.”
No , thats your personnal opinion , the materials and build quality and technique is higher today just for starter.
“And “personal preference” has jack to do with things.”
Apparently not , you keep making them …
“Dell uses cheap plastics in their machines, plain and simple. ”
Really ? Strange I tought it whas carbon fiber with mixed composite , I guess you must be right and can testify to it in court.
“What the hell do you mean? “<
You said :
“There is a recent macnn thread in which people have posted pictures of themselves standing on their Thinkpads and Macbooks. ”
I am 100% sure its not one of the current test that Dell notebook go true.
“You don’t think they intended on people closing the lids when they designed the machines? ”
You really do introduce a lot of new stuff that you did not discuss on your previous messages. No that I know they have a test for.
“And a fleet of 10,000 Cessna’s as air superiority fighters does what for you?”
Air supremacy over 200 F-22 Raptor , they may not show on radar nut they show on heat seeking and visual.
“It’s a completely pointless statement.”
Really ? or just another subject you dont know that well …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_T-37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor
Cessna is a level 2 threat , F-22 is level 5 , 10 cessna vs 1 raptor , nah forget it …
“Since the Macs can run Windows… ”
Really interesting comment , because you think that the requirement missing for playing Oblivion is the OS …
“What does that even mean?”
It means that Dell as a team that pricecheck there hardware to whats currently availaible on the market , thats one of the many reason why they are the #1 oem … The Apple MacBook Pro 17″ just recently came on the market , and Dell as a bigger buying power and control over there hardware supplyer then Apple does.
“The machines I used as comparisons are ones similar to the Macbook Pro. ”
You wish …
“When deciding between a Macbook Pro and a Windows machine, these will be the machines in the comparison”
http://reviews.cnet.com/Apple_MacBook_Pro_1_83GHz_Intel_Core_Duo/45…
“The E1705 you linked to was the pointless comparison”
No , but then again you dont know the range of the E1705 just load it up and load comparable components , also I whas not making a comparaison , it just happen I whas pointing out to other Dual core solution from Dell to justify my point.
“if you’re looking for a 1″ laptop, you won’t want the E1705”
Ok …
“and if you’re in the market for a $1000 laptop, you’re not looking at the Macbook.”
OK …
But the point is still that The MacBook Pro is not at that price because of the Dual core.
Dont worry you whont get it this time either ….
“BTW DELL offered to ship MAC OS X on its hardware , Apple refused.”
Dell ASKED OSX, not offered. And Dell asked it when Apple still used PowerPC. Than, Dell ASKED to sell Mac-clone with PowerPC G4.
But, PowerPC G4 wasn’t a poor processor? 😀
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:offer&sa=X&…
What was offered and what is shipping are two different concepts. The MacBook can and the Dell book can’t.
Michael Dell also told Steve Jobs to return money to the shareholders and close up shop a few years back. Now he wants to ship his OS on his hardware? How does the crow taste, Mr. Dell?
“What was offered and what is shipping are two different concepts. ”
Ok … But thats not what I said is it ? No …
“The MacBook can and the Dell book can’t.”
Interesting , since some model both came from the same manufacturer and have the almost exact same hardware.
“Michael Dell also told Steve Jobs to return money to the shareholders and close up shop a few years back.”
In 1997 to be precise , 9 years ago , when APPLE was at the bottom , just before Bill Gates Invested 150 million in Apple , Michael Dell was asked at a technology conference what might be done to fix Apple, then deeply troubled financially.
“What would I do?” Mr. Dell said to an audience of several thousand information technology managers. “I’d shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders.”.
Some people suggested that he was joking and was not informed at the time that Steve Jobs was back at the helm and did not knew that Microsoft would back them up with billion in product and support.
” Now he wants to ship his OS on his hardware? ”
Yes , Mac OS X is an OS , contrary to the lie you have been told it can run on more hardware then just the one from Apple.
“How does the crow taste, Mr. Dell?”
Crow ? You do actually realize that Apple is a very small company even today compared to Dell ? You might not see it , but Apple , is its own worst ennemy , it was brought down to the ground by its own hubris and its likely that they will again , go that way , since they make the same mistake.
You see Steve Jobs could let Dell ship the previous version of Mac OS X (Panther) and claim that is own hardware and company is the one shipping the best and latest that Mac OS X (tiger ) as to offer , this way he make money on volume for is older OS and he make money from people who will whant to upgrade to the current version. When The new one (Leopard) come out he can then let Dell ship Tiger.
He just as to be clear that he offer zero support on Dell Hardware and that Dell must provide it to the client it ship ( Zero cost on more support for Apple ), Dell also must go tru hardware certification on every model he ship with Mac OS X , thats more money for Apple. They will also increase the volume of sale on the software Apple make , as people using Mac OS X on Dell might whant to buy there software too.
Before you start calling me names , I just described the ITune strategy for windows , but for Mac OS X on Dell. If it worked so well for ITune , there is a good chance it can do the same for Mac OS X.
The computing world isn’t waiting around for Apple to sell them overpriced x86 boxes.
And with iPod sales slowing massively…
Cool!! When did HP start selling laptops that boot OSX? I can’t wait to try it. =/
Apple is refusing to license there OS , I am surer that HP would offer it , just like Dell and Gateway.
In other news, Porsches still cost significantly more than Fords, Pier 1 cost more than Walmart, and Coke cost more than RC cola. OSNews poster MediaSex baffled as to why people don’t always buy the cheapest thing, drives away angrily in ’79 pinto. More at 11:00…
Porsches?
MacBook Pro == Porsche 924
there is still significant difference between underhoods of Porsches and Fords, also in _raw_ performance.
which is not the case for apple vs hp here.
>there is still significant difference between underhoods of Porsches and Fords, also in _raw_ performance.
Thats funny, when did Ford start making cars that ran on nuclear energy? This must be new because the last time I checked they both had cylinders, they both required compression, and they both ran on gas.
But thats way beside the point. The point was that on a whole, Porche makes nicer (and therefore more expensive) cars than Ford, even though they are both automobiles.
>which is not the case for apple vs hp here.
Really? I see it as being very much the case here. Apple makes nicer computers than HP, just like Porsches are nicer than Fords. Are people who buy the HP laptop dumb? No, of course not. But the ones who buy the HP *specifically* thinking they are getting the same quality as an Apple are either very uninformed or just plain kidding themselves, which is what MediaSex appeared to be eluding to. Cheapest rarely == best.
waa..? what the hell “nuclear energy” has to do with it?!
Today’s Ford Focus and 80 years old Fort T also “both had cylinders, they both required compression, and they both ran on gas”, so you think they are in the same league, just Focus is “nicer”? Are you nuts?
Porsche is more expensive than Ford not because it’s just “nicer”… if you dont believe me, talk to anyone a)whom you believe and b)knows something about cars.
Granted, a lot of Porsche’s price is due to brandname, still the under-hood AND performance differences are real.
ones who buy the HP *specifically* thinking they are getting the same quality as an Apple are either very uninformed
ok, tell me what exactly inside the apple is of better quality than the hp’s (remember, os doesnt count here – we are talking hardware)
>Today’s Ford Focus and 80 years old Fort T also “both had cylinders, they both required compression, and they both ran on gas”, so you think they are in the same league
YES… yes I do. Why? Because the point in this matter has nothing to do with engine internals/chassis design/etc.., the point is that an 80 year old Model T and a Focus are both in the same category (i.e. Automobile) just like the porche just like a range rover, just like lexus, etc… Just like an Apple laptop is in the same category as HP laptop (i.e. Computers)
>Porsche is more expensive than Ford not because it’s just “nicer”… if you dont believe me, talk to anyone a)whom you believe and b)knows something about cars.
Ummm… I work on cars, Mercedes Benz and (older)Porsches to be specific. These cars are just plain engineered better than *most* of their american counterparts, are a nicer ride, and thusly command a higher price. If you need specific examples, I’ll be glad to site them. I have a 420sel in my driveway right now, if you want to come over and compare its quality to a ford focus, be my guest.
>ok, tell me what exactly inside the apple is of better quality than the hp’s (remember, os doesnt count here – we are talking hardware)
I’m seriously not trying to dog you here, but it seems apparent to me that you’ve never used an Apple (or driven a Porsche) before have you? If you think that simply comparing a list of numbers and part specs gives you a good idea of what the quality of the experience is like, then I don’t know what to say to you to make you understand. The best thing for you to do (if possible) would be go to an Apple store and a Best Buy and try both of these computers to understand the differences.
To reiterate my original point, the HP might be right for some people (budget conscious). But people who think they are getting the same thing as the macbook pro *just because* on paper they have identical specs, are sadly mistaken. I type this from a thinkpad T30 that I just purchased. I could have easily had a similar or better speced dell/hp/compaq for half the price of the IBM. However, the quality of the thinkpad (titanium composite case, more durable keyboard, better battery, longer lasting internals, better reputation, higher resale value) was what sold me on it.
1) cars –
I am not getting you. let me recollect the line of arguments:
MediaSex notes that Apple charges more for the same hardware as HP.
you sarcastically reply that it’s the same as Porsches being priced higher than Fords.
me humbly retort that it is bad analogy because while Apple and HP are the same hardware, Porsche and Ford are REALLY different under the hood => thus difference in price.
and then you 1st claim that there is no difference between Porsche and Ford, and 2nd you flip 180 to claim that “Mercedes Benz and (older)Porsches” “are just plain engineered better than *most* of their american counterparts”.
…. sooo … what do you really-really think: is Porsche technically different-better than Ford, or not ?!
2) Apple and HP
I asked you to elaborate about what inside apple is of better quality than the same thing inside hp.
And you replied with marketing-blah-blah-blah-bs, like, “…dont simply compare list of specs … quality of experience … understand the difference“.
“quality of experience” is inside your head (ie “opinion”), not inside apple laptop.
So I repeat my question: what EXACTLY inside apple laptop is of better quality than inside hp laptop?
———————
btw, apple’s “quality of experience” exists 50% thanks to OSX/AppleSoftware being better than MS/FOSS crap, and 50% due to a sole company having full control over the system.
but we are talking hardware here…
>I am not getting you.
I’m not sure why. Lets try this one last time:
Porsche = automobile
Ford = automobile
Therefore, I can justify a comparison by saying Porsche quality > Ford quality. It certainly wouldn’t make any sense if I tried to say Porsche quality > Bread Maker quality because they aren’t the same things. Are you catching on?
>you sarcastically reply…me humbly retort
Haha, thats great. Seriously, out of all the things you’ve posted, this is by far my favorite. You villify me for making fun of a troll while identifying yourself as the “humble poster”. Thats fantastic, like something out of Monty Python. How humble you are sir.
>1st claim that there is no difference between Porsche and Ford
No no no! I said they were in the same categoy (automobiles) which makes it a fair to compare the quality of the two. In my world, its fair to make comparions between two like objects. I can say that Filet Minion > Brisket, Mansions > Trailors, and CD’s > 8-tracks all because these things fall under like [respective] categories: beef/houses/music mediums.
You originally said they weren’t a fair comparison based soley on engine internals. I said they were a fair comparison based on the fact they are both automobiles. I never “fliped 180”. Please re-read my statements.
>what do you really-really think: is Porsche technically different-better than Ford, or not ?!
Yes, I beleive Porsche to better than Ford. I’m glad I could clear that up for you.
>I asked you to elaborate about what inside apple is of better quality than the same thing inside hp. And you replied with marketing-blah-blah-blah-bs
Ahhh yes. Something told me in the beginning that you were one of those people. Any attempt to make reference to Macintoshes being synonomous with quality is nothing more than marketing BS. So what do you want me to say then? Apple uses better quality parts (cases, screens, screws, connectors)? Apple has higher engineering standards (break away power cord, illuminated keyboard, thinner, lighter, quieter)? Tell me ssme, what would I say that isn’t marketing BS to you?
>So I repeat my question: what EXACTLY inside apple laptop is of better quality than inside hp laptop? but we are talking hardware here…
Funny because I was talking about the whole thing, internals, case, OS, the whole “quality of experience”. I could seriously care less that Apple and HP share the same motherboard/cpu which makes up about 25% of the computer (well, 50% to you since you apparently don’t believe in operating systems). Without the rest of the stuff, all you have is futuristic looking paperweight. If you want to think that just because the cpu/motherboard are the same, that makes Apple = HP, then keep telling yourself that. When everyone else makes this startling conclusion, starts purchasing HP’s buy the truckload, and Apple goes out of buisness in 3 months, feel free to reply back to me with an “I told you so”.
The HP is also 1.3 lbs heavier and half an inch thicker (thats 50% thicker than the mac). To some people that dosent matter. To others it does. I guarantee it costs more to put the same spec inside a smaller, lower weight package.
HP dv8000t 17″
Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo processor T2600 (2.16 GHz) same
2.0GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x1024MB) better
17.0″ WSXGA BrightView Widescreen (1680×1050) MBP has higher res
120 GB 5400 RPM SATA Hard Drive same
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Home Edition with SP2 OS X gives you the FULL version, not a watered down. You need to upgrade this to PRO to compete
FREE Upgrade DVD /-RW/R CD-RW Combo w/Double Layer same
FREE Upgrade to Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 3945ABG w/Bluetooth same
256MB NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) Go 7400 comparable
$1,929.99
Now add Firewall/antivirus, and an equally competing product for:
Firewire800
iLife 06 (iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD, GarageBand, iWeb)
Front Row with Remote
Photo Booth
Comic Life
Omni Outliner
Built in high-end Web Cam
iCal
Xcode2
iChatAV
A better warranty
Don’t forget to uprade to XP Pro and PAY EXTA for a back up CD
Have fun setting it all up too.
Let me guess? You don’t WANT all those features? Just the one’s that happen to be on the HP? Nice. A fcking iBook G3 has more and better features for half the price. Get real.
>>The computing world isn’t waiting around for Apple to sell them >>overpriced x86 boxes.
Let me know when they start.
>>And with iPod sales slowing massively…
“Apple sold 1.1 million Macintosh computers and 8.5 million iPods in the quarter, which marks only a 4% growth in Mac hardware but a 61% growth in iPod sales from the year-ago quarter.”
http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/laptops/story/0,10…
Uh, yeah that’s a massive slow down. Due to your outstanding market studies it’s no wonder you think an HP laptop can compare to a Mac.
XP Home.. thats about as useful as a shotgun blast to the head.
It would seem you’re the joke. The MacBook Pro can boot basically any x86 OS available. Show me an HP, Sony, or even a mighty Dell that can do that. I know MANY people who have both a Windows machine and a Mac for the widest app availability.. Or because they want to play PC games. Now that person can have both on one machine. In that regard, the MacBook Pro is a much better value than any other Core Duo machine on the market.
My roommate just bought one of the 15″ ones. Let me tell you, it’s expensive, but not at all overpriced…
Apple puts a lot of fit and finish work into their notebooks that no one else does. Things like ambient light backlight changing, putting the charge led on the cable instead of on the side of the machine, magnetic detaching power hookups, solid construction, a quality lcd that’s not pinched, lack of hooks sticking out on the top of the monitor.
If those sort of things are of no value to you, fine, but to some people those are worth money.
Edited 2006-04-25 18:38
Its a bit heavy for lugging around weighing in at just under 7 pounds. I can’t complain tho, the bigger screen size will make the over all unit weigh more. My 15.4″ laptop is about the same weight.
WOW!
The Europeans are getting screwed.
I hope the EU price INCLUDES the VAT that they have to pay. The price in Euros should be less than the price in dollars
Yes, Apple Store prices in Italy at least are IVA (your VAT) included.
Bye!
Yes, the EU prices include taxes (which are usually higher than US sales tax – e.g. Germany has 16%, most states north of it have even more).
Spain too. 16%. Included tho.
According to Apple’s online Irish store the price ex. VAT is 2,420.66 euro. Now if i go over to http://xe.com/pca and do a conversion into dollar that adds up to:
$3,003.64 ex. VAT a difference of about 200 dollars for the US price! so yeah EU customers are been charged extra by Apple, nothing new there though!
Remember that the US price is BEFORE sales tax which varies from state to state.
Yes, but i was comparing the price before Tax (VAT). In Ireland the price of this new MacBook Pro is $200 higher then before tax in the US. I didn’t know it cost $200 to ship a laptop from Taiwan to Europe (instead of to US) pfff!!
Apple US price (ex. tax)
$2,799 US = 2,260.65 euro (going by http://xe.com/pca)
Apple Ireland price (ex. tax)
2,420.66 euro = $3,003.64 (going by http://xe.com/pca)
“Yes, but i was comparing the price before Tax (VAT). In Ireland the price of this new MacBook Pro is $200 higher then before tax in the US. I didn’t know it cost $200 to ship a laptop from Taiwan to Europe (instead of to US) pfff!! ”
Apple charges for higher wages, longer warranty, and for most European countries: localization.
Entertaining that EU folks get gouged by Apple. Especially since they ship their machines from China!
Damnit. I love that high resolution. I was hoping Apple would wise up with that res. My next lappie would have been a 17 incher Mac then. Damn it is nice. Underpowered in the graphics department but nice.
1920×1200 is the native resolution of my 23″ Apple Cinema HD display. I can’t imagine that resolution on a 17″ screen. Sounds like it would be unusable (microscopic!) without an OS that’s resolution-independent.
I couldn’t agree more. In fact this decision alone pushes me towards a Dell Latitude D820. I want at least WUXGA on a 15.4″ screen. Why wouldn’t I want the most pixels my eye can see? I can comfortably read an LCD screen at about 12″. At this distance 1 deg is about .21″. A rough figure of the eye’s resolving capacity is 60 pixels in that 1 deg, so above 285 dpi or so, there probably isn’t much point. A 15.4″ screen is about 13.1″ across and 1920/13.1 is only 147 dpi. I hope WUXGA screens will make it down to photo storage devices with an 8″ diagonal screen. If Mac (or any other OS) can’t handle scaling every font and icon for systems with > 150 dpi, then it better get its act together soon as denser screens are obviously the future.
Dara
I am using it on a 15.4 inch widescreen. It is NOT microscopic and it is great when programming in IDEs. Also when editing word docs it is awesome because I have 2 pages open side by side. Same thing with pdfs. It is actually incredibly comfortable.
The MacBook Pro is now the lightest 17″ notebook on the market, with the most features. Software, and hardware wise. Period.
Agreed but not so for the price. I dont know about most features, software and hardware though. There are better configs out there but it is light tho the MBP.
Again somebody unable to get the difference between price and value.
E. g. product comparison between the MacBookPro 15″ and other 15″ CoreDuo laptops by c’t showed that the display of the Mac was better e. g. almost all laptop except the Mac laked non-reflecting coating making the displays unusable in bright sunlight. In fact, the Apple laptop was one of the best in almost all categories (battery time, weight, thickness, features, software)
Don’t get me wrong: The HP dv8000t 17″ maight be a good laptop – I don’t know – but stupid spec listings with the usual price comparision at the end are way to simplistic for the real world. Furthermore the iron rule of price comparisons states, that there is alway a cheaper machine.
In that sense:
The computing world isn’t waiting around for HP to sell them overpriced x86 boxes.
HP is not in the market for the cheapest machines, you say? Well – neither is Apple ..
//The machine will cost $2799//
~$3,000 for a laptop?
Sheesh. No thanks. What is this, 1988?
Love the laptop, like the OS, but I can’t find one rational reason to pay such a price (beast) for somthing that will end up as an internet terminal / word processor 90% of the time. If your not a graphics professional or a music maker, there is rationally no reason to spend a penny more than $1500 on a computer. Even that is a stretch.
I suppose the quotes from Rich Dad Poor Dad are true about people finding emotional reasons to justify purchases such as the Macbook/any PC over 1500 grand.
Lets be real, if you don’t write code for a living, do graphic design, or make digital music, it’s hard to justify buying this laptop even with it’s specs and svet design. If people were emotionaly void, would Apple still be in business?
If people were emotionally void, would civilization as we know it even exist? No.
go for used then and save a system from being wasted in the trash heap… seriously, after trying an umpteen amounts of different OS’s on this old G3 I got for free, finally I decide to try out OSX Tiger on it. I thought it would run like a turtle, but it’s actually (very surprisingly to me) running quite decently (by far the best performance wise out of all the OS’s I tried on it for this particular hardware). sure, it’s probably not up to task for heavy 3D rendering projects, but guess what, I don’t do those anyway… majority of the time, I’m in a terminal, a browser, maybe an email client, IM client, etc. with the very occasional light game. (mind you, I do have my sights on a lower end G4 powermac. the extra bit of umph from altivec might be nice to have)
to get even further off topic, it’s got me thinking, at work I have a linux box (dell optiplex gx280) which is comparitively a beast spec wise. thing is, it’s really a waste to have that much power since I run wmii as my window manager, and my most used apps are multiple xterms. the real work gets done on the servers I ssh to.
that said, I do also have powerbook they gave me, rather nice one to, but I hardly use it (at least not as an actual laptop). osx is great as a home desktop, but less useful for my work (basically, the way the desktop is setup isn’t optimal to me for having say 20 xterms opening and closing on a whim). for that, a cheap x86 running debian or something might be better.
Geez, wonder if it will work as well as the 15″???
This Weeks What’s Wrong With Macs! COPIED DIRECTLY From YOUR Helpe Site macfixit.com!
Special Report: Troubleshooting the MacBook Pro
Covering these topics:
-Audio distortion/poor sound quality
-Battery problems: Shuts off when not connected to power, more
-Built-in Display distortion
-Dead MacBook Pro’s-on-arrival units!!
-Downgraded SuperDrive relative to PowerBook G4
-ExpressCard issues
-FireWire 800 cards for ExpressCard/34 slot on the way
-High-pitched whining noises: Eliminating
-iSight not functioning properly
-Kernel panics upon waking up (Inability to wake from sleep)
-Lack of alternative power adapters
-Missing components
-Poor general network performance
-Printer issues: Not recognized, more
-Problems sharing the Internet connection
-Slow networking performance with VLANs; VOIP phones
-Wireless connectivity issues
-MacBook Pro (#15): Kernel panics upon waking up (Inability to wake from sleep); More on whining noise; Wireless connectivity issues; more
-MacBook Pro (#14): Inconsistent wireless connections with third-party routers; Problems operating from battery; more
-MacBook Pro (#13): Whining noises — more fixes; AppleTalk printers not showing up over AirPort; more
-MacBook Pro (#12): Poor network performance for some
-MacBook Pro (#11): More on whining noises, fixes; Problems sharing Internet connection; more
-MacBook Pro (#11): Audio distortion; whining noises; screen flickering; more
-MacBook Pro (#10): High-pitched whine being emitted, possible fixes; More seemingly defective units
-MacBook Pro (#9): More units arrive DOA; More on sound quality
-acBook Pro (#8): iSight not functioning properly; Screen artifacts; Sound quality/speaker issues; more
-MacBook Pro (#7): Notes from service manual; Poor sound quality; more
-MacBook Pro (#5): Notes from service manual; Poor sound quality; more
-MacBook Pro #4: FireWire 800 cards for ExpressCard/34 slot on the way
-MacBook Pro #3: Ship date; Lack of third-party adapters; Adding a FireWire 800 port; ExpressCard issues
-MacBook Pro (#2): SuperDrive apparently not dual-layer; S-Video out gone; No internal modem
-Apple releases MacBook Pro Core Duo: 4–5X faster than PowerBook G4 (yeah sure!, NOT what Benchmarks have shown!)
MacBook Pro (#12): Poor network performance for some
Monday, March 13 2006 @ 08:15 AM PST
Some users are reporting poor network performance from the MacBook Pro, an issue we are not experiencing in-house.
Note that we cover a broad range of Intel-based Mac networking issues in a separate series of articles, along with various workarounds that may also be applicable in the case of these MacBook Pro issues.
MacBook Pro – More on whining noises; Problems sharing Internet connection; and more PROBLEMS!
We continue to report on a distinct and irritating high-pitched noise being emitted by the MacBook Pro.
In some cases, whining sounds of this nature are related to the tied to screen brightness and caused by defective inverter boards. This was a common problem with the PowerBook G3 “Lombard” models, and the sound could sometimes be affected (or eliminated totally) by gently flexing the inverter board.
Turn on iSight Several readers have reported that turning on the MacBook Pro’s built-in iSight eliminates the whining noise.
One reader writes:
“Hi, i have the same problem. When i turn on the webcam the noise disappears, but when the webcam turn off, the noise starts again.”
The MacBook Pro ONLY SHIPPED IN February!!!
“The MacBook Pro ONLY SHIPPED IN February!!!”
You clearly are “somebody unable to get the difference between price and value.”
What kind of information do you think you’re going to come across on a site for people with broken Macs? People with properly working Macs don’t post there.
I’ve been holding out for the 17″ MacBook Pro… but I may try to hold off for a Merom processor. That’s the only thing missing from that machine.
And an extra trackpad button. And a better video card (ie. nVidia 7800). And -$500. I really wanted to get a Mac laptop, but Apple keep pushing me away. The ibooks wont be any better
Apple, this is what the market wants:
– 13.3 inch widescreen.
– 2 button trackpad.
– better video card and more hard disk space.
– keep the backlit keyboard / iSight.
All this for under $1600 US.
Is this too much to ask?
Actually this is what the market wants:
AMD processor dual core of course
2 button trackpad
7900 gtx or maybe the dx 10 version when vista comes out
17 inch 1920 x 1200 screen
Price no problem.
AMD’s chips own the desktop, but Intel still leads the mobile market. It would have been nice to see AMD’s chips in a PowerMac revision.
That’s what you want.
A 13.3″ widescreen might be fine for the general consumer, but I need a portable A/V editing machine. To be even remotely productive, 17″ is a minimum.
A two-button trackpad isn’t necessary. Right-click is a convenience for switchers. Besides, key+click combos take care of that.
A better video card? I suppose. I happen to prefer ATI, though. As for more disk space, I don’t think that’s quite necessary. DVD+/-RW’s, thumb drives and external hard disc drives provide ample storage and solutions.
Under $1600? Don’t we all wish. Is it plausible? Not built like this.
It does sound like you’re in the market for a revised iBook/MacBook. The MacBook Pro really is a professional portable workstation, not a consumer portable.
First to the post about the keyboard. The reason they do what they do is simple. They want to keep the keyboard centered for ergonomics. People don’t want to use a keyboard on a laptop that is shifted off center. Its very awkward.
Anyways, I see some disappointment here. Th FW800 port is a waste, there is almost no FW800 stuff out there. What should be on all new macs are eSATA ports, they already have the SATA inside. Give people a way to hook external drives in. eSATA will be taking over there and has much more of a future then FW800.
Also, why they are using the narrow Express slot makes no sense. It ruins the ability to have cards for directly connecting CF cards into the slot. That is a big thing for photographers. As is, people will have to use a dongle solution. There is a wider version slot in the spec, apple just isn’t using it.
Also, where is the built in GPS, this seams like a no brainer thing to add to a device which is mobile. As is, people have to go attaching an external unit to the laptop. Seeing how many people use macs on the road and as digital maps, GPS built in would be a wonderful thing, also allow for real time localization.
People don’t want to use a keyboard on a laptop that is shifted off center. Its very awkward.
I want. It is NOT awkward for me. Please do not decide what “people want” without actually asking those “people”.
Th FW800 port is a waste, there is almost no FW800 stuff out there
you mean you dont have fw800 stuff?
where is the built in GPS, this seams like a no brainer thing to add to a device which is mobile
there are a lot of mobile devices, like, err, calculators… should there be a GPS in every calculator?
yeah, probably laptop users are sooo engrossed into whatever they arre doing that they loose track where on earth they are… “yeah, I’m in some wifi cafe… but in which city??!!”
sorry, couldn’t resist 😉
will this ever end? this endless bickering about apples products comparied to the rest of the worlds PCs. let it die already!
if you are looking for a windows based PC…. go buy one! at what ever price point you can afford!
if you want to run OSX… go buy one! at what ever price point you can afford!
trying to do a line by line comparison is just futile! because no matter what you buy… in 10 minutes… the price is going to drop any way!
just get what you need and have fun!
windows people will always be windows people… and mac people will always be mac people!
my 17″G4 cost me 3500 when i bought it 3 years ago…. and i am sure i could have got a dell for cheaper….. but i tell you… my Mac gives me endless joy! i love the thing! no windows laptop could ever replace my PB….
but hey… thats just me.. and i could care less what you all buy…. just shut up with the “i know more than you” BS