Microsoft’s long-awaited release of the upgrade to its flagship Windows operating system will likely be delayed again by at least three months, research group Gartner said on Tuesday. The research note, released to clients on Monday, said the new Windows Vista operating system is too complex to be able to meet Microsoft’s targeted November release for volume licence customers and January launch for retail consumers. A Microsoft spokeswoman said the company disagreed with the Gartner report and it was still on track to meet its launch dates.
I think this is a good thing.. i think MS is making sure Vista is not a pile of rubbish or 95% of bug are really squashed and not just brushed under the mat.
Well only time will tell.
Either that or it is a big pile of rubbish and they just can’t get it working right. Take your pick, either one is a fine choice
I vote for the latter…
Yeah exceept that Microsoft is denying the claim that Windows will be delayed.
That means that they intend to ship on time, therefore they are not taking the extra time, as you say, to make sure that Vista is not a pile of rubish.
They’re going to ship what they can and tack on features later…including security features (see: http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39356292,00.htm).
The more time goes by, the more convinced I am that Vista WILL be rubish.
Microsoft will get made fun of a lot…
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Fool a third time, and we roll on the floor laughing about how you not only can’t hit a date, you can’t set one either
.
But it looks like the article is basically saying Microsoft’s predictions for getting this released don’t match up with its history at this point in the product cycle.
I’m not sure the metrics are really fair, given less than 10 releases to make metrics from; but it’s an interesting point. And it’s also interesting that they point out that missing the holidays is far worse than missing a few months after them.
My advice to Microsoft would have been to have been honest the first time, if at all possible, and set the date you can hit, with quality code. And maybe they did, and Gartner is just completely wrong.
But if they didn’t, I’m gonna join in on the “make fun of Microsoft for not shipping” jokes.
Since when is Gartner in any type of position to be calling the shots on when a company is shipping software? Since when is any company besides themselves able to do something like this…period? Articles like this are nothing but FUD.
It’s sad that they think they can get away with calling Vista “infinitely complex”.
While it’s got a few new features…They haven’t had to do THAT much…I’m sorry, if there was a new kernel/file system etc etc etc, then I’d understand this excuse and accept it.
We have NTFS. We have the WinServer2k3 kernel.
What else is there? A few updates, a new interface, some drm.
Hmmm. I’m seeing less and less a reason to upgrade. I think that more was added in Win98 SE! Am I missing anything? Is Vista ACTUALLY that different?
Compare the advances in Linux, for instance, in the past FIVE YEARS to Vista’s advances over XP. I’m not meaning to troll, only to illustrate a point: Microsoft’s gotten to big, comfortable, and sloth-like. We’re going to end up waiting over 6 years for minor updates to windows XP and a shiny veneer. Disgusting.
Edit: Decided to tone it down a bit.
Edited 2006-05-02 20:08
There’s actually a lot of changes, you just wouldn’t notice reading this site or slashdot. Almost everything was either overhauled or at least touched. Network architecture, audio architecture, driver framework, graphics subsystem, to name a few. There isn’t as much *new* stuff, but that’s kind of irrelevant. Sometimes even a small amount of change to a large component is just as complex.
Oh come now, Vista might be a disappointment in terms of what MS left out, but it’s not THAT bad. They *have* added a rewritten network stack and a new audio system that runs in user space, plus several other security enhancements, such as User Account Protection. (Which, arguably, should have been included years ago, but that’s not the point) It’ll also get the Windows Presentation Foundation, which should make Windows applications look a lot better than they have in the past, and Instant On, which will give uses of Windows laptops the decent sleep functionality that MAc users have come to enjoy.
Now, granted, it shouldn’t have taken them this long to do those things, but that what mismanagement will get you.
“Compare the advances in Linux, for instance, in the past FIVE YEARS to Vista’s advances over XP.”
You’re quite right here, Vista’s failure to come out within a reasonable time has really given Linux a lot of time to catch up. And it shows; I’ve been using an up to date Linux system running XGL and Gnome 2.14 and it works far better than back when I tried Linux five years ago.
Maybe that’s exactly how MS wants it. I mean, Gartner says “Is very complex. They’re gonna be late” and MS answers “Yes, it’s very complex, but we’re going to be on time”.
The public will wait and see if they do or do not make it to the date, but meanwhile they don’t question if Vista is really that complex or not, so the idea that it is complex gets stored subconciously.
While I am a Gnu/Linux user for most of my computer experience I have to say that we PROBABLY can see more changes in Gnu/Linux desktop because we had a lot of “catch up” to do when talking about average user needs.
Perhaps all the “complex changes” they talk about won’t be visible until the next few months (or years) just like it happened with Xfce 4.0 and Kernel 2.6 … it can just be laying the foundations from where new and cool features can be written… I hope.
I would really like a “Better Windows” since I am not a “Microsoft should die” kinda zealot… just think some competition is good and that Gnu/Linux is the way for me right now… if anything else gets better to my taste I just drop it.
Some employees also uttered this opinion on minimsft (in the comments that is).
I won’t be using Vista for anything…but it’s best to make sure that it’s ready than to push it out the door….so maybe they are doing the “right thing” with this…
I won’t be using Vista for anything…but it’s best to make sure that it’s ready than to push it out the door….so maybe they are doing the “right thing” with this…
———-
Not when it comes to your typical anti MS zealot. On one hand, releasing it on time means they rushed it and it will be filled with bugs. On the other hand, delaying it gives them another reason to hate on MS and to them looks MS look like a bunch of fools. Really, its a lose-lose situation.
Hmm, so everyone who is anti-MS is a “zealot” and anyone who is pro-MS is (by insinuation) “reasonable”?
Sorry. Not.
Anyone who thinks Vista will be on store shelves by January 2007 is, officially, precious. How many times do they have to jerk some of you people around before you stop believing their release dates? January 2007 makes no sense at all. People don’t buy new computers in January. People don’t like buying anything in January. That’s the cold, brutal month that the Christmas credit card bill shows up.
Longhorn/Vista has been “about a year from release” since 2002. None of the original “pillars of longhorn” will be making their exclusive appearance in Vista. Since its earliest days, MS’s main business model has been selling products that don’t exist. They’ve done it from the beginning, selling IBM an OS that they didn’t own yet, and have been pulling the same “just take our word for it, it’s super!” bullshit ever since. It really is time for all of corporate IT, especially the Fortune 500s who are being bled dry by the “pay for windows xp and office 2003 again and again every year” Enterprise Agreements, to stand up and say with one loud, collective voice, the emperor has no clothes. Because he certainly, truly, and OBVIOULSY, does not.
Meh, the problem is simple, however, with the Fortune 500 world, many of these organisations are like large governments – laden with people who have no real jobs – you know the ones, when you ask them what they do or what their job title is, they’re lost for words; in otherwords, they’re another link in the chain of ‘paper movement’, they could be easily gotten rid of tomorrow, but since these companies would rather price gouge their customers rather than slimming off their corporate fat, there is a move in the company to maintain that status quo.
Windows and the so-called “Office System” is merely an extension of this paradigm – do they need sharepoint? of course not; collaboration was done via passing around emails, and using php based forum discussion boards before this came along – and like the above scenario, do they need it to get work done? of course not; by adopting it, will it actually improve their working? of course not? will it create more jobs, and require more people to be hired, and thus, continue the ‘circle of life’ when it comes to beaucracies? you betcha!
So we have so-called “IT Experts” peddling this crap to upper management; upper management is either board shitless by hearing this geek rabble on about utter shit, or would rather be out on the golf course, so the automatic ‘yes’ sign in thrown up in the air, as if to say, “I give up! have your attrociously expensive toy! leave me alone!”.
That is why we have companies so ‘reliant’ on Microsoft – they have no ‘reliance’, its an addiction; just like a crack addict won’t die if they’re gradually weened off drugs, companies won’t suddenly ‘fall over’ if Microsoft applications were taken away; you might find 10,000 people, who should never have been employed, being let go, but the bottom line would look a whole lot nicer, and share holders would be a whole lot happier knowing that they’re getting a bigger, more juicy dividend.
If they are thinking of pushing it back. They may as well release a Windows XP Update Pack or Service Pack 3 Now
Which should includes WMP10, All the Update ( and the internal ones that never get released on Windows Update )
There is nothing wrong with Xp yet. So why not release SP3 now and rename the orginal Sp3 ( which includes some features of Vista ) to SP4?
Edited 2006-05-02 20:53
There is nothing wrong with Xp yet.
You have a strange definition of “nothing”.
…from Microsoft?! You mean, aside from the ones they’ve gotten rid of already?!
“And the latest target release for Microsoft Windows Vaporware is… Sunday the 12th of Never, twenty-twenty-seventeen.”!
Does it matter to you or me when Vista comes out? It might matter a great deal to OEMS and those in the retail trade, but for an ordinary user running XP just what is the hurry?
Just my 2 cents, but at the moment Wall Street and analysts seem to have declared open season on Microsoft which is just having to stand there and take it on the chin. They might be doing a great deal of things under the bonnet between test releases, but normal commercial confidentiality means they aren’t going to get into details. So, Gartner and co take advantage of this, perhaps, and the line starts up that Vista is delayed because of bigtime trouble, organization paralysis, insert dramatic allegation here, etc.
The real kicker date is June, I would guess. Microsoft’s financial year runs June to June, I think, and missing Vista by a whole extra year in accounting terms really might not go down well.
Edited 2006-05-02 21:31
Could it be that MS doesn’t want to release in January? It’s not like anybody will be buying it then, which will tend to make the product look bad even if it doesn’t deserve to. Right now Vista can’t afford any more bad press.
MS, via their unofficial PR department (Gartner), is trying to prepare everyone for another delay with less impact on their stock price than if the company said it officially. Even if Gartner has no possible basis for making such an announcement except privileged information from Redmond (not that it’s stopped them before), it still looks better than a press release coming from Redmond.
Vista will be in stores in January. I’m not sure about the volume license stuff (November is coming fast), but January ought to be doable, deducting from the last few builds I tested.
Comment bookmarked so I can post the link in a few months when Vista “officially” slips.
Edited 2006-05-02 22:48
… don’t care
Close to FUD … want to hear it directly from MS .
This is turning into Microsoft’s version of Zeno’s paradox. Everytime they have caught up with the release date, it has been pushed back a little bit further 🙂
Perhaps they should steal a gag from the Firesign Theatre and only announce release dates in terms of “fractions of a year remaining until Vista is released.”
Vista to be released in 1/2 year!
Vista to be released in 1/4 year!
Vista to be released in 1/8 year!
Vista to be released in 1/16 year!
Vista to be released in 1/32 year!
Vista to be released in 1/64 year!
ad nauseum.
Maybe in the future of philosophy paradox of Achilles and the tortoise isn’t known, but instead paradox of Windows Vista is part of every basic philosophy course.
We all know there will always be bugs in software — that’s one major reason for Service Packs, Second Editions, kernel updates, etc. What product has ever been released without bugs? There’s a good chance your first “hello world” had a bug in it. As software gets more complex, it becomes more difficult (impossible) to exhaustively test.
Vista will have bugs. The major ones will be fixed in the first service pack. IMHO, a product can’t be judged until the first Support Pack is released. By then the developers should have had time to fix the they couldn’t before the marketing department shoved it out to the masses.
One can only hope that the major bugs do get addressed quickly, or use an alternative, more stable product/version.
In all seriousness, there is ONE category of software that NEVER has bugs:
Software that is never released!
There’s a good chance your first “hello world” had a bug in it.
Indeed, my first “hello world” failed to compile because of a semicolon.
But still, that’s why you “code little and test a lot.”
Now, considering the talented programmers who work for Microsoft, I consider a very surprising thing all the wrong (decisions from a design standpoint) they’ve come up with
Now, considering the talented programmers who work for Microsoft, I consider a very surprising thing all the wrong (decisions from a design standpoint) they’ve come up with
That doesn’t surprise me much. A couple of key people with “non compatible” points of view may ruin the whole thing. Several years of delay is a sign of deeply plagued development processes.
BTW: I wonder if they’re still use QuickC to do the job?
Microsoft announces a quarterly slip on Vista to “add some new features it had in the wings.”
Could be, becuase they are waiting for the decision on the EU case? Either way, January is a weird date…
I am not going to be a guinea pig…again.
When SP2 is out, I will think about it.
Thus, I think a lot of experienced Windows users will feel the same.
Our time costs too much.
just has important as the predictions from Dvorak and the PBS dude.
Windows vista B2 build 5365 was tested by me and I found alot of bugs:
1. dpi for big screens @120 was showing jagged lines and curves, ie pixelated not vector based
2. networking was not taking advantage of 1GBps.
3. networking with xp machine is a matter of luck, sometimes it works and others not
4. limited user account “user” when prompted with administrator password and entered will not execute the desired function; eg, copying a folder from vista to a windows XP computer
5. concurrent networking eg IE with 10 tabs, azureus and FTP downloader will crash the connection completely leading to zero surfing; diagnositic windows then popup to correct the problem for you which finally says no solution for such a problem, report the bug to Microsoft.
6. IE startup with 10 tabs saved from previous session will not open up correctly.
7. Picture viewer was unable to execute with full screen or slideshow, it gives you a message that windows is unable to show it and advice you to hit Esc key
8. Restart or shutdown was not preferred over waiting for a crashed process (explorer.exe); ie system veto was not working properly
9. User Switching was so slow unlike windows XP, which takes 2-4 seconds
CPU P4 2.8 GHz HT enabled, 1GB RAM DDR 400 Corsair, 865PE intel chipset based Mobo “GA-IPE1000-G”, GeForce Ti4600 PNY GPU
Scores:
CPU: 4.1
RAM: 5.2
HDD: 5.6
Graphics: 2.0
Gaming Graphics: 2.0
Edited 2006-05-03 01:39
I can now honestly say… I don’t care. I have already switched to a Mac and I’m just loving it. Also I removed Windows from all my old PCs and just installed linux. My opinion of Vista is that it will be another bloated version, full of eye candy that will not run on my old machine. The best stuff of Vista seems to exist on Mac OS X for years so… what am I missing? Malware for sure! Too little too late Microsoft, I don’t care anymore.
Edited 2006-05-03 01:55
On the behalf of all Windows users: we’re very happy for you. We’re happy also you cared enough to comment on this article.
Thank you ^^
He was being a bit flippant, but I see his point. Microsoft is almost punishing its customers with this release, or constantly postponed lack thereof. Almost I say. Current XP and 2000 users are probably satisfied with what they have right now… and even when Vista arrives, they likely won’t switch for a year or so, letting the brave ones take the first, tentative steps into this newly written OS.
…this is really taking a looooooong time. They must be rewriting the entire operating system, from scratch. Seriously, someone doesn’t know how to manage a project and, at the very least, communicate it’s schedule and progress.
Heads have got to roll when this mess is over. At least there is hope that this will be an OS they can build on for a decade or so.
…this is really taking a looooooong time. They must be rewriting the entire operating system, from scratch. Seriously, someone doesn’t know how to manage a project and, at the very least, communicate it’s schedule and progress.
Well, its more of a cultural thing; observe:
MacOS X; they needed an XML/XSL parser, Java support, graphics accelerator; etc. Why not use opensource projects? they’re 90% of the way there, customise it, and dump it into MacOS X, and voila, a working operating system delivered on time – and better yet! we don’t announce release dates until 80% of the stuff has actually been done!
Microsoft: Bah, screw all those opensource projects, lets go out and reninvent the wheel.
And as you can see, look through MSDN and the wasted time on DirectX, XPS, the Office XML format and the likes – imagine if they simply adopted the openstandards and use opensource components where it made sense, then Microsoft could concerntrate on important things like security rather than trying to live in their NIH vaccum.
If this is true, it’ll just be Microsoft’s development model coming back to bite them in the ass. If you throw that many programmers at such a huge, poorly modularized system, complexity is just going to kill you. You can throw resources at it all you want, but complexity tends to grow exponentially, and you *will* lose to complexity, sooner or later.
Regardless of what you may think of OSS, you have to give them credit for their development practices. Everything on a Linux (or FreeBSD, etc) system is highly modularized (even Xorg these days!), and developed independently. There are probably as many programmers working on Linux + GNOME + X11 + etc as there are working on Windows and its default software. Yet, Linux improves at a tangibly faster pace than Windows, and that’s because of its superior development model.
PS) You’ve got to give Apple some credit too. Their handling of OS X has been very good. Its quite nicely modularized into frameworks and components, and Apple seems to have taken a page from OSS’s “release early, release often” mentality. OS X, too, has improved at a tangibly faster pace than Windows over the last five years because of its development model.
Until Micorosoft says it I will not believe it.
Analysts will say anything and some of it is probably paid for from competitors (I would not doubt it).
There are so many people that want Microsoft to screw up as it is like kicking a dog that is already down from his mistakes.
Look at this forum, notice how many people dislike Microsoft and want them dead so that linux can thrive and everyone can use that?
Sure, Microsoft had issues of mismanagement to make things even worse, but the people on here make up FUD and negative news because they want Microsoft to just die.
The big reasons is that they don’t like Microsoft as they are a company that makes money and they don’t open all of their sources to people and that makes them angry and they know that with Vista looming, Linux can no longer compete on quality and just on being free alone and this scares them.
So some of these liberal people happen to be anaylists and other companies who are jealous like Sun Microsystems.
“The big reasons is that they don’t like Microsoft as they are a company that makes money and they don’t open all of their sources to people and that makes them angry and they know that with Vista looming, Linux can no longer compete on quality and just on being free alone and this scares them.”
Not at all, I’ll be happy for Linux to compete on quality when Vista comes out. I know I already use Linux at home for quality reasons, not because it’s free. I use XP every day at work, without any stability problems (apart from Outlook crashing daily), and still much prefer Linux, for me it’s just a better system. There are too many bits of Windows I find annoying. I’ve also spent more on software for Linux than I ever did on software for Windows. Microsoft could release a fully polished Vista tomorrow for all I care, at least it might give them feature parity with what you can use in Linux today.
Anyway, I’m sure Microsoft are big enough to look after themselves. They’re the experts on FUD after all.
people always make comments in this cain os news?
You gonna useit anyway, today tomorow or next year its the same thing, and you can still playing with XP a little more thas a plus…
Its like the PS3 thing… its a strategy to make everyboody talk of it to make it more desire..
We are many who won’t be switching to Vista. ReactOS probably, but as the number of cross platform applications rises, the need for a specific OS declines.
We are many who won’t be switching to Vista.
It’s not a matter of switching. It’s what comes with new PCs that counts. And all those new PCs, starting January 2007, will ship with Vista, whether you like it or not.
ReactOS probably
You are comparing Vista to ReactOS? I have a lot of respect for the team behind the effort, but let’s face it, there’s no way in hell you can compare ReactOS to Vista.
“You are comparing Vista to ReactOS? I have a lot of respect for the team behind the effort, but let’s face it, there’s no way in hell you can compare ReactOS to Vista.”
Sure you can. It would be pointless and more than a bit ridiculous, but you could do it 😉
Of course I can. I can also compare Vista to CP/M-80 v. 2.2. It wouldn’t make much sense, if the comparison was based on functionality.
Comparing ReactOS with Vista is very reasonable. Running on the same platform and they both run the same applications, and have much of the same functionality. True, ReactOS is far from finished, but so is Vista. Many applications already run on ReactOS, so in a year or two it can replace Vista, unless eye candy is a must.
ReactOs its like win98…but like Vista hell no..
ReactOS is not like win98.
ReactOS is to Windows what GNUstep is to Cocoa.
You could also say ReactOS is a compromise between NT4, 2K and XP.
But like Win98? No way. CP/M is more like Win98, or perhaps it’s Win98 which is more like CP/M.
MS isn’t worrying, the moment it comes out and in the OEM’s hands, new computers would ship with it and life goes on.
which is fair enough, but Vista alone will not make people go out and buy a new PC.
..could not this be viewed as a failure of C# and .NET?
Maybe new fancy garbage collected languages are not that good for system development…
They haven’t been using .Net since at least 2004, probably earlier.
Interesting… any references?
Trying to find some, but I don’t think it was really “announced” or anything.
The only parts of .Net in Vista that I know of as the inclusion of the framework and the WinFX APIs which are built on .Net. Considering WinFX is a new API intended to eventually replace Win32 (MS hopes), then I guess yeah.. it does use a lot of .Net. However, WinFX is not the problem with Vista. Management and other things are.
We’ve been waiting too long for Vista and I think it will be so buggy when it comes out, nobody will want it.
The company I work for is finishing out the XP rollout along with new PC’s. The only thing left to do is to get our new Win2003 Server running and we’re in business.
For my home, I’m not even considering Vista. It’s been too long in the vaporware department for my use.
Make way for Microsoft Copland 😉
Mod Parent Up!
Brilliant!
I love reading the news on this site… but the zealotry sometimes gets stupidly old.
Ok… great you don’t like MS products… that’s your freedom to do so. but for the love of GOD! whenever a news story is posted about MS.. We have to wade through a trillion and half of posts like “Well Vista is vaporware and it sucks because my Linux is better… etc etc etc etc etc etc ” Cool… i agree that there is alots of merits in the Linux environment. I use a Linux Box at home as our families file server and Photo Album website server. BUT…. Linux is still NOT perfect either.
Bottomline… NO such thing as a perfect OS…
We come to this site for news and discussion, NOT News and rampant MS Bashing… it gets tiresome and old and boring… etc etc etc etc etc … MS Story posted… 4 comments are good and are related to topic, 146 comments are MS bashing and how Linux at home washes their cars and saves the universe… ugh…
Honestly want to “kill” MS… Work with the FOSS community and make REAL WORLD improvements to Linux and FOSS, like… TRUE ease of use… Give someone a Windows based Program CD… 9 times out 10 , then can install it.. they put in CD, it pops up… they click install… it puts an icon on Start Menu and/or Desktop… they’re done. In Linux… lol… ok… “RPMs…. Double click on the RPM… What? there is a Dependancy? Crap have to search for that RPM… Oh Someone said use YUM… ok.. What.. My Yum repositories and not set up.. ok.. Edit these files… damn still not working…” See the point?
The Lay user will NEVER go through that much trouble…
It seems in the FOSS/GPL circles there is a mental block on making things easy.. Because easy is MICROSOFT.. and we HATE Microsoft!
Can i get an AMEN?!
No, you cannot get an AMEN, I for one am an atheist, and there are readers from other factions, beliefs and religions here…..
Anyway, you say you use Linux as a server at home, but you say you faff about with RPMs and editing config files ? I am not calling you a liar, but how old is your distro ?
Is it RedHat ?
Why not try a distro set up for the ease of use you are looking for ?
Linspire would be a good choice for point and click installers, as is Xandros with the Xandros networks.
However Yast under Suse 10 has excellent package installer as does RPMDrake under Mandriva.
These are as easy to use as Synaptic under all Debian based distros.
Here is how they all work..
Scroll down the list of apps, click the ones you want, then click the Apply button… Software gets installed and set up. Simple as that.
At the minute, Linux is far more advanced and user friendly at installing software than Windows is.
amen
Used at the end of a prayer or a statement to express assent or approval.
Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to be offended.
Edited 2006-05-03 17:50
I was not meaning to offend. I was raising the guys awareness of others.
where did you get that defination btw ? sounds a bit evangelical to me !
No, you can’t. Because I disagree.
There is no mental block in the FLOSS world in regard to making things easy. I dare say the many FLOSS projects aiming at making things easy proves you wrong.
But hey… don’t let facts get in your way.
@embleau
Can i get an AMEN?!
AMEN!
Don’t worry about it. In the end, all that stupidity is gonna work against the OSS fundies. Just like the posts about how he or she can’t “cope” with Windows anymore and switched to Ubuntu or MacOS X. I call it the SteveJobs Syndrome.
In the end, I just make fun of them. Some get mad then I laugh.^^
Don’t worry about it. In the end, all that stupidity is gonna work against the OSS fundies.
Stupidity always works against fundies. And your stupidity is working against your fundamentalism. Just like the posts about how Master or Miss Windowsfan installed Uberdistro GNU/Linux for Geeks and now can’t get X working. If I have another reason to respect that person, I don’t call it Pigheaded Cretin Syndrome.
Can i get an AMEN?!
——-
I’ll give you an AMEN!
I disagree with you about dependancy hell though. Its really gotten a lot better over the past few years. But hey, if Linux zealots get to use arguments from Windows 95/95/ME days, why cant the MS guys use arguments from past Linux distros?
What I giggle at about this site is that mostly anything that has a high score is either pro Linux or anti Microsoft, even if its something thats obviously crap or pure brain dead zealotry. Take anything that has just a hint of pro Microsoft even if its a good valid point and its score stays rock bottom.
So yes, its very tiring indeed. I like to consider myself a free agent and open to any new OS that can get the job done for me whether it be Linux or Windows. I just stumbled upon this site not too long ago and while great at the begining, I have seen just how bad things are here. Its almost like slashdot jr! I think its time for me to investigate some other places to get my news…
Take anything that has just a hint of pro Microsoft even if its a good valid point and its score stays rock bottom.
That’s not really true. What you describe as “pro-Microsoft” posts are usually off-topic, anti-Linux rants, and they are modded down accordingly.
The__dude Said….
“Not when it comes to your typical anti MS zealot. On one hand, releasing it on time means they rushed it and it will be filled with bugs. On the other hand, delaying it gives them another reason to hate on MS and to them looks MS look like a bunch of fools. Really, its a lose-lose situation.”
He speaks the truth … yet it was modded down to -3
I guess the truth hurts when it is given like salt in a wound.
But he is correct… If MS just released Vista and it had some bigger than minor issues… People will cruxify MS. So… MS waits and tries to clean up code and issues as much as possible to make a cleaner release, hoping to make people happier… and what happens? They get bashed and chastised for “Not being able to release code on time”… Vicious circle it is. It truely is a no win situation. No pleasing everyone.
<Shrug> I personally don’t mind waiting. If it means a cleaner intial release. Notice I didn’t say perfect release? No such beast as perfect software.
It’s just sad that this guys post got modded down and the only way i saw it was to view posts under my threshhold. Why? because he spoke a truth, that hit a nerve with 3 people somewhere. So much for free speech
Edited 2006-05-03 17:25
How much “bigger than minor” do you want your issues to be? I have used Windows and Linux distros alike with “bigger than minor” issues. (Specifically, Win98 and Xandros, to name two). Where was the outcry from Windows users?
NON-existent.
Windows is made for the lowest common denominator, i.e. people who wouldn’t know a “bigger than minor” OS issue from minor issue, or (more likely) a hippopotamus’s rear end. The difference is that with Linux you have a CHOICE, so when a distro comes out that is targeted to newbies, but has “bigger than minor issues,” (e.g. Xandros completely failing to install on my machine), you can switch to a distro that doesn’t.
With Windows you either take it or leave it. Yes, I left it, and was quite happy to do so, ta very much.
Why did Xandros fail?
Only times I’ve seen Windows Fail on install is if the hardware is glitchy somewhere. Bad Memory, CPU, or Motherboard mostly. Change one of the above and voila… it works…
“Windows is made for the lowest common denominator, i.e. people who wouldn’t know a “bigger than minor” OS issue from minor issue, or (more likely) a hippopotamus’s rear end. The difference is that with Linux you have a CHOICE, so when a distro comes out that is targeted to newbies, but has “bigger than minor issues,” (e.g. Xandros completely failing to install on my machine), you can switch to a distro that doesn’t. ”
You are absolutely right… BUT…. the lowest common denominator is the MOST common. So are you saying that people who don’t want to “chose” or tinker are stupid and get what they deserve?
I’m pretty well versed in Linux being Linux+ certified and administrate about 10 Linux-based server here at my job. I used to teach linux certification as well as A+ and Network+. So I’m in no way a “newb” but I also see the big picture here. Windows is NOT going anywhere anytime soon… it’s here to stay and will be the dominate OS… UNLESS The Linux community and Distro makers can get more uniformity across the board. As for people knowing Minor or bigger than minor issues.. They shouldn’t HAVE to worry about those things. Not all people are computer/OS enthuseists like us. They just want it to work and do what they want to do. And the truth is.. Windows DOES just work for a majority of people. they can go into any store and buy software and/or games off the shelf and it just.. works… Not everyone knows about repositories and some don’t even know about free download sites for free software.
I’ve used Windows since Dos/Windows.. I’ve seen the ugliness, it has come a LONG way. I’ve used all the MS OSs at one time or another. I used XP SP2 at home now, mostly because I’m a WoW freak, and I don’t have the cliche “BSODs” all the time and all that other Fodder you hear.. I never had.. I’ve had a few random oddness in the past, but no more than I have on Linux. Like I said above the only times I’ve had trouble on other machines with Windows is when there is sometime not right with the hardware, like it’s starting to fail. Windows is MUCH more pickier with hardware quality than other OSs. I can take one of the machines that XP is bombing on and put Win98SE on it and it will work.. Does that mean XP is crap? no… XP uses a different kernel and it requires more stability in Hardware than the 9x kernel does.. Same goes with Linux, sometimes the Linux kernel is more forgiving. Is that MS or XPs fault? no, I’d say that is the hardwares fault, but yet people quickly point their fingers at MS. <Shrug> oh well.
Why did Xandros fail?
I think the installer had trouble coming up on my machine. It was a long time ago, but seeing as how it was supposed to be a well-supported distro for newbies, I was NOT impressed.
Come to think of it, its predecessor Corel Linux failed as well…spent all night trying to install itself, and STILL wasn’t finished by morning. But that was even further back. Two different machines.
Only times I’ve seen Windows Fail on install is if the hardware is glitchy somewhere. Bad Memory, CPU, or Motherboard mostly. Change one of the above and voila… it works…
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I was mainly thinking of Windows problems after installation, like crashing every five minutes due to a program it didn’t like (Encyclopedia Britannica). note: not only the PROGRAM crashed, but the OS. I never saw crashes that frequent even on AmigaOS, with no memory protection.
Come to think of it, though, I once tried to install Windows on a second hard drive with Linux on the first drive. Crashed and burned, but thankfully didn’t screw up Linux. OK, so it was DESIGNED to only install on the first HD, first partition, but that is BAD design.
You are absolutely right… BUT…. the lowest common denominator is the MOST common. So are you saying that people who don’t want to “chose” or tinker are stupid and get what they deserve?
No, I’m saying that Linux is (increasingly) made for almost everyone, depending on the distro you choose. Just like cars. If we (again) compare the car and OS markets, the situation in the OS market (excluding Linux) is like having a choice between three or four Ford or Toyota models, and NOTHING else. But some people like Audis, Vauxhalls (GM-owned British make), or even Kias.
I’m pretty well versed in Linux being Linux+ certified and administrate about 10 Linux-based server here at my job. I used to teach linux certification as well as A+ and Network+. So I’m in no way a “newb” but I also see the big picture here. Windows is NOT going anywhere anytime soon… it’s here to stay and will be the dominate OS… UNLESS The Linux community and Distro makers can get more uniformity across the board. As for people knowing Minor or bigger than minor issues.. They shouldn’t HAVE to worry about those things. Not all people are computer/OS enthuseists like us. They just want it to work and do what they want to do. And the truth is.. Windows DOES just work for a majority of people. they can go into any store and buy software and/or games off the shelf and it just.. works… Not everyone knows about repositories and some don’t even know about free download sites for free software.
Uniformity isn’t the problem (see above). Enforced dominance of Windows is. Companies like HP and IBM already spend millions on Linux so that they can use it on server systems; if they didn’t have the Sword of Ballmercles hanging over them, threatening to pull Windows from them if they even countenance anything else, they would both pre-install more Linux systems and improve it for newbies. Plus, there’d be a bigger market for software, so people like Corel and Adobe would port Wordperfect and Illustrator, MS be damned.
I’ve used Windows since Dos/Windows.. I’ve seen the ugliness, it has come a LONG way. I’ve used all the MS OSs at one time or another. I used XP SP2 at home now, mostly because I’m a WoW freak, and I don’t have the cliche “BSODs” all the time and all that other Fodder you hear.. I never had.. I’ve had a few random oddness in the past, but no more than I have on Linux. Like I said above the only times I’ve had trouble on other machines with Windows is when there is sometime not right with the hardware, like it’s starting to fail. Windows is MUCH more pickier with hardware quality than other OSs. I can take one of the machines that XP is bombing on and put Win98SE on it and it will work.. Does that mean XP is crap? no… XP uses a different kernel and it requires more stability in Hardware than the 9x kernel does.. Same goes with Linux, sometimes the Linux kernel is more forgiving. Is that MS or XPs fault? no, I’d say that is the hardwares fault, but yet people quickly point their fingers at MS. <Shrug> oh well.
I think people point the finger at MS because it doesn’t live up to its promises.
On the machine I had on which Win98 kept failing, it MAY have been a hardware problem, but Linux worked like a dream.
I think an awful lot of people are willing to live under dictators, if that dictator does a good job; and I understand that MS can’t really say “YMMV”, but their claims are usually SO much out of kilter with reality that people who know better – well, it IS possible to know better. ATM, Linux is for the people who realize that a dictator is a dictator is a dictator, and aren’t willing to live under one because, unchecked, they all go bad in the end. Windows is improving, but so is Linux, and for many purposes it was already far better. MS’s big advantage is that it runs all the apps out there; as a platform, it is the best; as an OS, it still sucks, IMO.
It’s just sad that this guys post got modded down and the only way i saw it was to view posts under my threshhold. Why? because he spoke a truth, that hit a nerve with 3 people somewhere. So much for free speech
I believe he got modded down because he used insulting/offensive language. As far as free speech goes: a) his comment was not deleted, the proof being that you were able to read it; b) as indicated under the comment box, “Submission of a comment on OSNews implies that
you have acknowledged and fully agreed with THESE TERMS” with a link to the terms.
Calling people you disagree with zealots is not civilized debate.
Not only that, but he didn’t speak “the truth” – he gave an opinion. The fact is that the people complaining about Vista being pushed back are NOT “anti-MS zealots”, but rather frustrated Windows users. As a Linux enthusiast, I really couldn’t care less when Vista is released. If anything further delays are a good thing, because it increases the amount of attention given to Linux.
But really, if you read the web sites, those who criticize MS the loudest for being late are not Linux users, but long-time MS advocates such as Paul Thurott, or current MS employees posting anonymously on a the Mini-Microsoft blog.
Same thing goes if MS releases Vista too early, and it’s buggy: those who will complain the most are not Linux users, but Vista users (for obvious reasons).
So you see, in fact he did not speak the truth at all, but rather used this topic as an excuse to post an anti-Linux message (something that happens a lot nowadays with MS apologists). One thing that is true is that this is a lose-lose situation for Microsoft. In this, however, they have no one to blame but themselves.
“No, you cannot get an AMEN, I for one am an atheist, and there are readers from other factions, beliefs and religions here….. ”
———————————————————
Um…. i don’t think I meant in a religious sense.. lol
I meant it in a “Do you agree with me?” Amen means “We are in Agreement” lol… I’m happy you are an atheist…
But just remember who waved their religious beliefs first
😉
with that said…. I use Fedora 4/5 and/or CentOS 4.3.
and yes I’ve used the ones you have mentioned. But each solution has different offerings… No consolidation across the board… And while one YUM repository has an app available another might not and vice versa.
conitunity is key…. uniformity… people don’t wanna learn 4 ways to do one job and each way as more options/repositories.
But Linux IS getting better… I didn’t say it wasn’t. I remember the days of NO RPMS even… all was compile from source.
Like I said to sappy… I did not mean to offend. But it is a culture thing. Over here in the UK, when someone asks if they can get an AMEN, it is always for religious purposes. We never say it when we ask for an agreement.
There is enough abuse around here without starting the religious one
I know I am going to get modded down for this, but I have to be honest and this is NOT a troll post.
I have tried Linux and I just don’t think it is worth the hype.
It is nice that you can make the OS do what you want, but I really don’t care. I care about applications and a lot of Linux applications are on other platforms.
I don’t think Linux is at all as stable as people say and I think that it is not as secure as a lot of versions of Unix out there.
When I was in high school, I didn’t do drugs or be as cool or did what everyone else did. I did my own thing.
I think Linux is just like that. It’s cool to be anti-microsoft. It is the in thing to do. I don’t give a crap though, I have my own mind and my own thoughts and I don’t have to be like the Borg.
I also don’t care for this free as in speech thing that comes from the University of Berkley California thing either. I am not a hippy so I could care less.
I don’t like even how the linux kernel is set up. I think it is crap. Sorry, I just don’t think Linux is all that great.
By the way, I was using Solaris in 1995 before most of you guys were using Linux. I have tried a bunch of distros on my laptop and I just was not impressed.
Its a bunch of different coding styles and patches just put into an OS. A lot of hardware still does not work even with newer versions of distros.
You may say this is FUD (which is a typical response) or a troll. Honestly this is the way I feel.
The best thing Linux did was to make Windows and Mac better and in the end, that is all it did.
1) What applications are lacking? What are you running right now, that is so earth shattering important, which isn’t available on an alternative platform?
2) You do realise there are other operating systems out there on generic x86 besides Windows and Linux – shock horror, there is FreeBSD! install, cvsup, cd /usr/ports/x11/xorg && make install && cd /usr/ports/x11/kde3 && make install, then sit back and wait till the compile is complete, hardly steps that would require rocket science knowledge at ones finger tips.
3) What evidence do you have that Linux is a ‘crap’? the fact that it doesn’t follow the conventional development model? so far, it actually is going quite well in terms of delivering on its performance, security and stability arguments.
Better still, the whole development, like the *BSD’s, is conducted completely open and transparent, you get to read the arguments for and against certain things being merged or rejected – so if you are curious as to why something is done a certain way, you can research it using the online resources.
4) Laptops are netoriously crappy when it comes to companies, and using standard parts – it seems that these companies, no matter how much they talk about ‘consumer choice’, they do their upmost to ensure hardware and operating system lockin my using a convoluted collection of proprietary and poorly documented hardware.
If I were, today, looking at purchasing a laptop, I would go with an Apple, given its default operating system. If I had to purchase generic x86 laptop, it would be Toshiba all the way – sorry, Dell, HP/Compaq can take their crap and put it elsewhere, never have I see such crap crammed into such a small space, and cause such problems when it comes to installing any operating systems, including Windows!
5) What hardware isn’t working with Linux or any other operatin system for that matter? tell the forum, and someone here might be able to help you – assuming you want help.
Edited 2006-05-04 07:14
I have my own mind and my own thoughts and I don’t have to be like the Borg.
You’re mixing up your nerd metaphors. The Borg == Microsoft.
You’re entire post is off-topic, and has been moderated as such. It was also a troll (references to “hippies”, among others), whether you truly believe it (which would be sad) or not is irrelevant. Please stop posting your anti-Linux propaganda.