http://www.osnews.com/story/14594/FreeBSD_Vows_to_Compete_with_Desktop_Linux Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:25:00 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread?123980 http://osnews.com/thread?123980 If they can fix all the problems and have the same hardware detection and something like HAL, then I could use it,if not I'll keep waithing using Ubuntu not GNU/Linux. Fri, 12 May 2006 20:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Mitarai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123986 http://osnews.com/thread?123986 I definitely think there are ways where FreeBSD has the potential to be a strong competitor on the desktop in part because they have more control over the project than a typical Linux distro would have over Linux.

I think it could benefit Linux at the same time because if some things show to be successful on FreeBSD they can later be adopted by Linux (like ports package management for instance).

At the same time I think there are areas where Linux has made huge improvements that FreeBSD could borrow from (the installer for instance).

This should be interesting. Fri, 12 May 2006 20:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Priest) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123988 http://osnews.com/thread?123988 I live FreeBSD as much as the next person (it's the OS I've used longest on the desktop (apart from MS-DOS), in fact), but let's face facts -- a lot of "Desktop Linux" depends on propreitary software, binary blobs/drivers, and -- most unnerving of all -- non-portable, non-compliant, obfuscated applications that claim to be OSS. You aren't going to get those over to FreeBSD easily. Fri, 12 May 2006 20:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (eMagius) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123989 http://osnews.com/thread?123989 I like that sound of that. My main concern is about the hardware support. I also have the same concerns about linux, and I could be wrong on this but linux supports more hardware? What kind of multimedia framework is in place on FreeBSD? Linux has ALSA for sound, gstreamer or xine for multimedia. What are the FreeBSD equivalents, and will they make a unified sound system?

It would be really great if they team up with pc-bsd and desktopbsd and share ideas. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TaterSalad) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123993 http://osnews.com/thread?123993 Most of the popular GNU/Linux distributions don't include proprietary software by default, so I don't see your point.

My take: in order to be more friendly as a desktop OS, FreeBSD needs:

- HAL support. There's a patch done already, but I don't know how complete or stable it is.

- A simple installation program. Don't ask the user if they want to setup the machine as an NFS client and stuff like that, just keep simple questions like locale configuration, user account, etc.

- GUI tools integrated with the desktop environment to install packages and keep the system up to date. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (thebluesgnr) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123994 http://osnews.com/thread?123994 I would think it would be just the opposite. The proprieatary software and binary drivers would be easier to port to freebsd due to the license. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TaterSalad) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?123995 http://osnews.com/thread?123995 Don't take me wrong, but I don't think freebsd can't do nothing to be more competitive than linux on desktops. It won't be less competitive either.

I mean, being competitive on desktops means basically things like gnome, kde, Xorg - things that freebsd is ALREADY sharing with linux. There're features were the kernel is involved: device management, software suspend, cpufreq, graphic 3d drivers, etc....but what makes a desktop competitive is mostly the software. Gnome is not more competitive in solaris than in linux, neither the reverse. A gnome/kde desktop running in a freebsd kernel will be gnome and kde. Not that it's not nice to see freebsd coming with desktop-ready solutions, but I don't think it will a breakthough, those will come with the next gnome and kde versionsEdited 2006-05-12 21:10 Fri, 12 May 2006 21:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (diegocg) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124000 http://osnews.com/thread?124000 One can argue about GPL vs BSD licensing, but BSD licensing does have some plus points Fri, 12 May 2006 21:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (vikramsharma) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124001 http://osnews.com/thread?124001 Just curious: what features is FreeBSD missing compared to Linux?

Is he speaking of easier installers? Because I know 2 distros that got most of that pinned down already. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ronald Vos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124003 http://osnews.com/thread?124003 Just get more funding and support from big corporations like IBM and others then all will be fine. Lack of hype and ads is another issue. The rest is all doable and already being implemented.

Feature wise, I think FreeBSD or BSD in general are capabale of delivering quality products that can be easily adopted on desktops. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Chezz) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124004 http://osnews.com/thread?124004 WTF are you talking about.

Every distro has complete control over Linux, they can apply their own patches if they want.

No one is stopping them. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tmack) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124005 http://osnews.com/thread?124005 Can't wait for this to happen, always preferred BSD over linux. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Lugee) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124008 http://osnews.com/thread?124008 I've used FreeBSD and NetBSD as my desktops before. Both are very good operating systems, in some aspects better than Linux. Still, my desktop setup is currently a dual boot between two Linux distros because I've got the impression that BSD is happy where it is and not really interested in competing with the desktop Linux. I might be wrong.

I'd love to see equal competition on the desktop between BSD and Linux. I think it's quite possible and I'd love to dual boot between BSD and Linux on my desktop setup.

Both BSD and Linux have conquered a strong position on the server space. But desktop is a new territory for both, and Linux has so far seemed more eager to grasp a hold on that area. There are huge opportunities for growth on the desktop for Linux and BSD because they are both free (as in "free beer") while their competitors, MS Windows and Mac OS X, are expensive.

Although BSD and Linux compete with each other, the fact is that they're actually pretty similar. They both use the same applications and applications are what matters to users -- not the underlying system. And because the apps are the same, it is also a fact that what benefits Linux on the desktop, will also benefit BSD on the desktop (and vice versa).

A healthy competition on the desktop between two equal systems, BSD & Linux, would ensure that they will both try their best. IMO, the ideal situation would be where MS Windows has 25% market share, Mac OS another 25%, and both Linux and BSD have also their 25%. :*D Fri, 12 May 2006 21:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (da_Chicken) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124011 http://osnews.com/thread?124011 I disagree with your point about not asking the user if they want to set up a nfs client et al.

Freebsd is designed underneath to be a server os, but its higher level can be anything, including a kde/gnome desktop.

does not pc-bsd cover a user friendly installation that you mention?

What i have just said covers all *bsd. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (lobster) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124012 http://osnews.com/thread?124012 Just curious: what features is FreeBSD missing compared to Linux?

HAL support. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (thebluesgnr) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124013 http://osnews.com/thread?124013 Between the source code from Darwin and 'step, an OS X like BSD distro shouldn't be too far off?

Reusing a bunch of Linux crap that continually fails to capture large portions of the desktop market is a mistake. BSD should find alternatives, maybe it'll be better off than Linux - maybe not. But at least it won't be more of the same. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Fuji257) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124015 http://osnews.com/thread?124015 I'm not saying it's a bad thing that FreeBSD asks that, but that makes it unfriendly as a desktop OS to a lot of people. That doesn't imply that I think the current installer should be replaced, rather a more simple installation method could be added.

For example, if you want FreeBSD to be useful as a desktop machine you'd probably install GNOME or KDE on it. But what about people who don't even know what GNOME or KDE are?

And PC-BSD is not part of the FreeBSD project. Fri, 12 May 2006 21:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (thebluesgnr) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124016 http://osnews.com/thread?124016 ... is to run KDE or Gnome on top of a BSD kernel, with BSD extended to look like Linux (e.g. implement HAL). This means that they'll be running mostly GPL and LGPL software, it will not be BSD-licensed at all. Then it will just come down to how good the hardware support is, and at this stage Linux tends to support a lot more hardware, though BSD folks are narrowing the gap. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (JoeBuck) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124020 http://osnews.com/thread?124020 A hardware abstraction layer (HAL) is a software abstraction layer between the physical hardware of a computer and the software that runs on that computer. [--] The Windows NT-based operating systems have a HAL. [--] BSD, Mac OS X, Linux, Solaris, and some other portable operating systems also have a HAL, even if it's not explicitly designated as one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_abstraction_layer

FreeBSD has also automounting support for removable media via autofs. That's quite useful for desktop systems. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (da_Chicken) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124024 http://osnews.com/thread?124024 More control? How so? I could start my own distro tomorrow if I wanted to...and make it do whatever I have the ability or desire to do.

Yeah, it'd be great to have ports-like package-management...like uhm...Portage in Gentoo? Fri, 12 May 2006 22:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124026 http://osnews.com/thread?124026 Right, but what's needed is a layer that can manage notifying desktop components of events that take place at the hardware level, like the insertion of a removable device, the lid-close event on the laptop, etc. The simplest path would be to build in the needed support to make the existing KDE and Gnome desktops work smoothly, then BSD systems will have basically the same desktop.

However, I suspect that the BSD folks will then have a hell of a lot of tuning to do; Linux folks have been tweaking to improve desktop performance for some time, while the BSD world has been totally server-focused with few exceptions. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (JoeBuck) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124027 http://osnews.com/thread?124027 Why?

If their goal is to get HAL, Gnome, etc working well with FreeBSD, what difference does it make?

The function will be nearly identical, the only major difference being the software license and different security vulnerabilities.

Even more ridiculous is that they are aspiring to using HAL, and GNOME projects. GPL projects, meaning they can't "BSD" them, which would allow propriatary derivatives.

I really don't think the community is clamoring for another kernel. And if there's one kernel i'd like to see reach parity with Linux, it would be HURD, not FreeBSD.

Nothing against the FreeBSD developers, i just think their effort could be put to more useful things. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mike hess) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124033 http://osnews.com/thread?124033 Even more ridiculous is that they are aspiring to using HAL, and GNOME projects.

On the contrary. It would be ridiculous to develop a GUI from scratch, with Gnome and KDE on the market.

I really don't think the community is clamoring for another kernel. And if there's one kernel i'd like to see reach parity with Linux, it would be HURD, not FreeBSD.

Ofcourse FreeBSD is not just a kernel, it's a complete OS. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (noescom) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124034 http://osnews.com/thread?124034 Between the source code from Darwin and 'step, an OS X like BSD distro shouldn't be too far off?

Except for the fact that a large portion of OSX, especially the GUI components are all proprietary.

Reusing a bunch of Linux crap that continually fails to capture large portions of the desktop market is a mistake. BSD should find alternatives, maybe it'll be better off than Linux - maybe not. But at least it won't be more of the same.

I think that GNOME and KDE are both very good desktops. The fact that they haven't taken over yet doesn't mean very much. There hasn't really been many companies pushing for desktop linux until recently.

Designing and implementing an entirely new and useful desktop from scratch is going to take quite sometime and quite a hell of a lot of manpower. I don't think this would be a good approarch for BSD if they want to be on the desktop in the next ten years. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (abraxas) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124035 http://osnews.com/thread?124035 Just as it would be ridiculous for KDE to write a browser engine when Gecko will be ready any month now. Oh, wait...

Just as it would be ridiculous for Linus to write a new OS when HURD will be done any year now. Oh, wait...

You get the idea. I don't think they will, but don't dismiss it as stupid or too hard. It is neither. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sorpigal) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124037 http://osnews.com/thread?124037 Well as someone who has tried many major linux
distros..Slackware, Gentoo, Debian..
I was just blown away by how good DesktopBSD was.
What does it have that Linux does not have?
Well a sound system that works for one!
I'm sorry to say but ALSA is STILL BUGGY!
At least with kernel 2.6 and KDE 3.5
Don't believe me? try to get a Java application
that uses sound to play sounds at the same time as ,say , an mp3 playing in the background.
The mp3 player blocks the java apps sound and no sound is heard.
I know you can use fluxbox and/or install oss in linux but the point is that FreeBSD gets it right
by default.
FreeBSD uses the old oss system of sound but it works perfectly Fri, 12 May 2006 22:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mrUnix) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124039 http://osnews.com/thread?124039 Just get more funding and support from big corporations like IBM and others then all will be fine. Lack of hype and ads is another issue. The rest is all doable and already being implemented.

You hit the nail on the head. Funding, support and hoopla is what is missing. Fri, 12 May 2006 22:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavenn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124043 http://osnews.com/thread?124043 Since performance is a very important desktop productivity criteria, is FreeBSD doing better than Linux? Fri, 12 May 2006 23:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (youcha) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124047 http://osnews.com/thread?124047 You're not serious, are you? According to this interview, FreeBSD includes blobs, too.

http://kerneltrap.org/node/6497

If that's true, you need to upgrade your FreeBSD Fri, 12 May 2006 23:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (larry) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124049 http://osnews.com/thread?124049 I have no DVB-TV drivers for my VDR (Video Disk Recorder) like on Linux.
I have no ISDN Capi driver for my AVM ISDN card
I have no useful Bluetooth drivers
I'm always behind with PF Firewall if I look to OpenBSD
I have no VMware (for some Win Admin Tools that doesn't run in Wine)
I have no NCPFS mount (for Netware shares)

... sorry, no. Fri, 12 May 2006 23:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sledgehammer89) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124050 http://osnews.com/thread?124050 ... there is no apt-get like in Ubuntu Fri, 12 May 2006 23:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sledgehammer89) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124054 http://osnews.com/thread?124054 You are right that there are no technical limitations to what you can do with Linux.

However, FreeBSD has recognition as a centralized effort. If the FreeBSD peeps decide to over-haul a major sub-system and take the project in a new direction, they can (see SMPng) and the whole community goes along for the ride. You or I could not just spin off our own 'flavor' and call it FreeBSD (see DragonFlyBSD).

The Gentoo project has made this great Portage system, but they can't insist that Linux as a whole will follow their vision (apt, rpm, tar.gz, etc.).

The sort of dominance the FreeBSD developers have over their entire project (soup to nuts) can't be duplicated by either the Linux community or a specific distriution because Linux and FreeBSD are too different political animals entirely. Fri, 12 May 2006 23:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (paul.michael.bauer) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124057 http://osnews.com/thread?124057 It's been awhile since I've used FreeBSD, but what I recall being most frustrating was a lack of configuration scripts and/or gui utilities.

For example, to get a dial-up modem or pppoe working, you had to open up a text file and write the configuration by hand. I had to spend days reading man pages and searching online before I could do it. By contrast, on Debian you could run kppp for a dial-up modem, or pppoeconf to configure pppoe - so intuitive that there was no need to read documentation.

The same situation when it comes to configuring a firewall. Linux has several gui utilities for this (Firestarter, Guarddog, etc) while on FreeBSD you had to read a book so you could figure out how to write the pf.conf file (and even after I did it, I'm still not sure it was correct).

The FreeBSD developers need to address this issue. Perhaps they will. I wouldn't mind seeing FreeBSD achieve parity with desktop Linux.

And one more little thing. They need to do something about the geometry bug. Fri, 12 May 2006 23:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ozonehole) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124059 http://osnews.com/thread?124059 Personally I think the two already existing desktop distros of FreeBSD, PCBSD and DesktopBSD are doing a fine job as it is.

Moreover, is there *really* the need for this? What is the point of trying to compete with Linux on the desktop? It will be very hard to top Suse, Ubuntu and Fedora.

FreeBSD IMHO should concentrate on being a friggin good server os. There is a massive market for this. Spend time making it super easy to setup a secure chrooted server. Make menu driven programs that make it a snap to setup postfix, dovecot / cyrus / postfix, dns, apache, mysql, postgres, jdk, jboss, etc and make the configuration dead easy. Let's have none of this obscure configuration file stuff - that's so 1970.

FreeBSD is immensely powerful already but what it lacks is ease of use for newbies. The hours I've spent trying to get programs to talk to each other simply wouldn't have occured on Windows, and this I believe is how they can really improve. Fri, 12 May 2006 23:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Nycran) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124060 http://osnews.com/thread?124060 what Desktop linux? people knows about linux that is virus free and spyware free,etc but they still choose to run Microsoft Windows, infact 90% of the desktops run a version of Microsoft windows. Right now if FreeBSD plays their cards right and not do the mistake that linux has done in the past they will become a good and better desktop OS then linux. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124061 http://osnews.com/thread?124061 Two points;
-Everything is always behind with PF firewall because it comes from OpenBSD...
-Try running Qemu instead of VMWare, especially with -kernel-kqemu Windows XP is running at almost native speeds. (unfortunately, in my case I have mouse issues, not sure if it's related to compile options, mouse settings in XP, XP itself, running the latest stable FreeBSD from cvs...)
-Can't comment on the rest as I don't use any of that. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (JamesTRexx) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124063 http://osnews.com/thread?124063 FreeBSD is immensely powerful already but what it lacks is ease of use for newbies.

FreeBSD is not lacking the ease to use. it's not FreeBSD fault that the users/newsbies are dead brain or lazy to learn how to use it. FreBSD is fine the way it is. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124064 http://osnews.com/thread?124064 Don't believe me? try to get a Java application
that uses sound to play sounds at the same time as ,say , an mp3 playing in the background.
The mp3 player blocks the java apps sound and no sound is heard.

Perhaps you've never heard of ALSA's dmix feature.

And BTW: The design of the OSS sound sink is awful. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (FishB8) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124065 http://osnews.com/thread?124065 "FreeBSD is not lacking the ease to use. it's not FreeBSD fault that the users/newsbies are dead brain or lazy to learn how to use it. FreBSD is fine the way it is."

Sorry, I think you're wrong. FreeBSD is easy to use ONCE you've spent many many hours learning about the OS and the specifics of each server program you want to install. I'm not arguing that FreeBSD isn't kick ass. But if you think this overhead isn't putting off new users or making them use Windows Server instead (which makes these things VERY easy) then you're just being a BSD fanboy. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Nycran) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124066 http://osnews.com/thread?124066 This is very interesting, I'd really like to see how this turns out.. BTW FreeBSD isn't hard to use and if your telling me you don't want to read documentation your just being lazy. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Leoandru) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124068 http://osnews.com/thread?124068 but say someone buildt a device based on freebsd (like asy tivo is buildt on linux) you could be posting sour comments about no info about their changes to the source all day and they could not care because the requirements that the GPL have.

some like to give, others like to get something in return. and im not talking money. something way more valuable then that, information... Sat, 13 May 2006 00:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (hobgoblin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124071 http://osnews.com/thread?124071 nor can you take the linux kernel, add some stuff and call it the pmb kernel...

allso, if you make a change to the linux kernel. and then post the change up on the net, like should be doing if you allso release the alterd kernel, others can see this, maybe add more to it. and if they realy like it, fold it into the linux main source.

not with the BSD's there is all this duplicate effort because they dont like what the others are doing because it breaks with the "spirit" of the BSD. and therefor they spin of a off-shot.

sure it helps to be one big gorilla if you want to get control over the "market". but in the end, the lowest common denominator is the source. as long as the source is out there, it can be worked on and made to work under just about any distro.

no need to demand a single packaging system or anything like that. grab the source, work the source, compile the source. and if you cant, maybe someone can help you?

thats one of the interesting things about gobolinux. i can install source via a recipie, i can install a premade binary, and they can live together. hell i can have the dependencys of a binary package satisfied by a source recipie that have the source it needs automaticaly downloaded from the developers website.

and it uses the filesystem as the basis for its package manager. if i want to clean out a package i only need to delete the directory its in under /programs

ok, so the filesystem is a bit oddball compared to the more ortodox distros, but i kinda like it

and still i can pull down the latest kernel and have it compiled. heh, there is even a recipie for the nvidia drivers. Sat, 13 May 2006 00:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (hobgoblin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124072 http://osnews.com/thread?124072 sometimes i would call that sound blockage a feature.

i wonder how many times i have had some add load up in a background window and scare the hell out of me because of its loud sounds. then i need to track the source down while its polluting my music... Sat, 13 May 2006 00:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (hobgoblin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124074 http://osnews.com/thread?124074 Just for the record, I can use all the dmix goodness when I issue single sound commands (with the appropriate command line options) but I've never managed to configure .asoundrc to apply this to ALL sound events even though I've read several HOWTO's.

ALSA still has a long way to go when it comes to ease of use. In time it'll get there but currently many people are still having way too much trouble configuring ALSA. OSS, despite its limitations, is a tried and tested technology that doesn't require any expert knowledge for configuration -- in most cases it just works right out of the box. People who struggle with ALSA tend to think of OSS with tender affection. Sat, 13 May 2006 01:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (da_Chicken) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124080 http://osnews.com/thread?124080 I think you're wrong. FreeBSD is easy to use


that is what i'm saying that freebsd is NOT lacking the ease of use. in onther ways i'm saying it easy to use. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124082 http://osnews.com/thread?124082 If you require users to read documentation you'll never be a competitve desktop system. It is lazy, but that is the way most people are. For a server, though, that's probably a plus since it means you have to have some kind of clue about what is going on. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (smitty) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124083 http://osnews.com/thread?124083 I got a better idea, lets compete forget about dealing with the mess of code that is Linux and work to achieve a greater goal. It's like when Linux wants to compete with MS Windows when there's clearly a better OS out there as far as security and user-friendliness is concerned - Mac OS X. Why would I wanna compete with a mediocre OS that's chock full of security holes? Why doesn't anybody want to create a Mac OS X competitor? We got all the damn code we need already! Anybody heard of GNUstep? Howabout Darwin? Sat, 13 May 2006 02:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (godsolete) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124084 http://osnews.com/thread?124084 I should mention that I am using on-board sound
the ac'97 default of i915 and most modern computers
these days. Alsa has some issues with this.
I use dmix. It works most of the time.
I use archlinux(the best!) and dmix + Kde3.5
is enabled by default(I think they use Jack too)

And it works MOST of the time. I can play a movie
and play an mp3 fine.

Here is how to reproduce the problem:
Login to KDE and start listening to music and while doing that try this java applet:
go to www.freechess.org and click "login now"
(you don't need to know how to play chess),
login as "guest". You should be
greeted with the spoken message "welcome to the free internet chess server". But that message won't be heard. Observe * will let you observe the strongest game in progress and you should hear clicks whenever
a piece moves. I bet you won't.
It is because they are using java. It is a
well-known issue.
As for sound sinks you may be right but for me
I just want to hear all sounds at once and oss does
works flawlessly. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mrUnix) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124085 http://osnews.com/thread?124085 I can't comment on the BSDs as it's not a subject I'm at all educated on, I can only speak for Linux which I've been using successfully for years.

You may be correct, however, the market (users & corporate sponsors) have ultimately made their choice, for now. Surely the majority of free *nix offshoots has made a choice and it's pretty clear that the BSDs just aren't getting the attention Linux and it's many thriving distros are getting by personal users and professionals.

Most techies who are interested in alternatives to Windows or Unix would, at this point, not see as much of an advantage using a BSD as they would using Linux just due to the simple fact that there are more people out there to support them in the Linux community.

I'm not saying I'd never be interested in a BSD flavor myself...I'm interested in everything...but Gentoo gives me all of the power and I see no advantage to using a BSD at this point. Gentoo's community has been amazing and is growing fairly rapidly, even today where we now have Ubuntu and a Novell-sponsored SuSE.

In closing...the fact that the BSD "leaders" can swiftly make an abrupt change w/o the permission of its many participants isn't necessarily an advantage. If there were a technical (or social) advantage there I think we would clearly see it rise above. Perhaps we will someday? Sat, 13 May 2006 02:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124086 http://osnews.com/thread?124086 I should mention that I am using on-board sound
the ac'97 default of i915 and most modern computers
these days. Alsa has some issues with this.
I use dmix. It works most of the time.
I use archlinux(the best!) and dmix + Kde3.5
is enabled by default(I think they use Jack too)

And it works MOST of the time. I can play a movie
and play an mp3 fine.

Here is how to reproduce the problem:
Login to KDE and start listening to music and while doing that try this java applet:
go to www.freechess.org and click "login now"
(you don't need to know how to play chess),
login as "guest". You should be
greeted with the spoken message "welcome to the free internet chess server". But that message won't be heard. Observe * will let you observe the strongest game in progress and you should hear clicks whenever
a piece moves. I bet you won't.
It is because they are using java. It is a
well-known issue.
As for sound sinks you may be right but for me
I just want to hear all sounds at once and oss does
works flawlessly. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mrUnix) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124087 http://osnews.com/thread?124087 Linux is not the problem for BSD. BSD's biggest competition is the BSD license that allows big corporations to leech off the blood of these talented programmers without contributing anything back. To date there are thousands of major companies like Apple, Microsoft and Nokia that use BSD code and we never see any contributions that come back to the community.

The reason Linux is more widely used is simple: The GPL. The GPL forces any one that modifies Linux code to contribute it back to the community. My opinion is that the FreeBSD people are crying at the wrong funeral by thinking that their "competition" is Linux. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (lz1kwk) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124088 http://osnews.com/thread?124088 I've got an ECS 915PA on FreeBSD 6.1 running 4Front's OSS drivers and it works just fine. XMMS rocks, Mplayer rocks, It even has a better virtual mixer than ALSA's crap DMIX - with 4front's virtual mixer I can control each app's volume individually - ALSA is all or nothing.
Plus it just sounds terrible compared to OSS.

I've heard that NetBSD guys are working on an HDaudio driver - wonder how that will sound. As for ALSA, sorry but this was supposed to fix OSS's limitations but it's just horrible to use. Most of the apps are OSS so why bother? Sat, 13 May 2006 02:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (stephanem) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124089 http://osnews.com/thread?124089 your are right Linux is not FreeBSD competition it's Microsoft Windoes because Windows is installed on 90% of the desktops. so, as for, Linux being on the desktop is about 2% the other 8% might be divided between Mac and other OS.

The GPL forces any one that modifies Linux code to contribute it back to the community.

is not doing any good the linux kernel is really buggy and windows is still installed 90% of the desktops. so all that code that is contributed it back to the community.
is not helping but making this harder like now they have to repair a buggy kernel and Ms windows is still kicking the heck out of linux in the desktop. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124090 http://osnews.com/thread?124090 What he meant is that since there is only one FreeBSD, if you Google for help on FreeBSD, the results are always relevant. If you search for help on Linux, you might get SUSE help, Ubuntu help or whatever. Sometimes it applies to your problem, and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, FreeBSD can focus on FreeBSD specific documentation. They are in complete control of everything from start to finish. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (backdoc) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124094 http://osnews.com/thread?124094 Scott Long always beats the big drum when interviewed about FreeBSD, so anything he claims should be taken with a bit of salt.

It's also interesting to note that while the much needed improvements to the file system is touted at the end of the article, no mention is made of a journaled UFS, a project Long is supposedly personally working on. Sat, 13 May 2006 02:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Yoke) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124096 http://osnews.com/thread?124096 This is exactly how each distro functions as well...each consisting of their own respective communities w/ relevant documentation, forums, mailing lists, etc.

However, the difference is, if you don't care for the community of one distro you have hundreds to choose from and experiment with. This level of competition forces a distro to stay relevant or drop out of the race.

I believe this "open market" environment w/ Linux distros today is what is pushing it forward so quickly and gaining it respect and corporate sponsorship. That, of course, combined with excellent engineering, dedicated programmers, and whordes of techies out there willing to experiment to help improve the quality.

In the BSD space there isn't nearly as much adoption or expansion. The momentum in BSD currently just cannot compare. Sat, 13 May 2006 03:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124100 http://osnews.com/thread?124100 "In closing...the fact that the BSD "leaders" can swiftly make an abrupt change w/o the permission of its many participants isn't necessarily an advantage. If there were a technical (or social) advantage there I think we would clearly see it rise above. Perhaps we will someday?"

You mean like OSX? Or Windows?

Linux arguably has more people behind it than OSX, not to mention a huge head start and even billions of dollars invested in it. Apple in the span of only 2 or 3 years created an operating system that is mainstream ready.

Say what you will of the OSS development model, but sometimes there is alot to be said for greater control. Sat, 13 May 2006 03:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Priest) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124101 http://osnews.com/thread?124101 A bit like saying "Looks to compete with the dollar store" or "when I grow up I want to be like that cool school janitor?"

Linux as a desktop OS is hardly what ANYONE should be aiming to be like. While certainly distro's like Ubuntu have made huge strides, it's still nothing I'd sit grandma down at.

I suppose you could call it baby steps, but sheesh, Aim a little higher guys.

What I'd love to see is a OSS *nix that aims to be comparable to OSX. (In other words, hide as much of the *nix bullshit as humanly possible from the user) Sat, 13 May 2006 04:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (deathshadow) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124103 http://osnews.com/thread?124103 A bit like saying "Looks to compete with the dollar store" or "when I grow up I want to be like that cool school janitor?"

Linux as a desktop OS is hardly what ANYONE should be aiming to be like. While certainly distro's like Ubuntu have made huge strides, it's still nothing I'd sit grandma down at.

I suppose you could call it baby steps, but sheesh, Aim a little higher guys.

What I'd love to see is a OSS *nix that aims to be comparable to OSX. (In other words, hide as much of the *nix bullshit as humanly possible from the user) Sat, 13 May 2006 04:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (deathshadow) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124106 http://osnews.com/thread?124106 Some numbers show Linux adoption on the desktop even greater (albeit not by much) than OSX. Apple is now considering another kernel, why is that? I'm sincerely asking, I honestly don't know. However, there must be a significant flaw for them to consider this sweeping change. Technically (not legally? not sure here) they could port their desktop to a Linux kernel...and probably do just as well if not better, couldn't they? Again, I don't know squat about Darwin, so I'm just speculating.

Microsoft had to ditch their old development model in favor of one more "open source-like" during the development of Vista because the old way of doing things (and the old code-base) had become impossible to work with. This was said to be done to further help Windows development keep pace with open source development.

I wish I had the Wired article from a few months back that went into great detail on Microsoft and these changes I mentioned, if I find it I'll post the source. However, you should be able to find plenty of publications w/ references to this information. Sat, 13 May 2006 04:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124108 http://osnews.com/thread?124108 "BSD's biggest competition is the BSD license that allows big corporations to leech off the blood of these talented programmers without contributing anything back."

These programmers know the pros and cons of using a BSD style license. They were free to choose whatever license they wanted, and have chosen the BSD license. That is their freedom.

"To date there are thousands of major companies like Apple, Microsoft and Nokia that use BSD code and we never see any contributions that come back to the community."

But now the BSD code is being used by millions of people where otherwise it would have never seen the light of day.

If you want personal recognition and merit, by all means use a license that favors that style of fanfare. There's no need to slam the efforts of others who have decided to take a different approach for the common good. Sat, 13 May 2006 04:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (joekiser) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124110 http://osnews.com/thread?124110 Most of the popular GNU/Linux distributions don't include proprietary software by default, so I don't see your point.

No, he is talking about the availability of proprietary drivers.

Also, there are alot of OSS coders who seem to be living under a rock thinking that the world revolves around Linux, resulting in alot of pissed off users and programmers who end up spending hours upon hours trying to working around stupid Linux'isms they include with their applications. Sat, 13 May 2006 04:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124111 http://osnews.com/thread?124111 I'd like to also know what is defined as 'easier installer', because easier installer should not automatically mean graphical installer, as there are horific graphical installers out there, that certainly are not easy to use.

Sysinstall, although not 'sexy', does the basic job of allowing one to install FreeBSD without much fuss or bother. Sat, 13 May 2006 04:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124114 http://osnews.com/thread?124114 I'm glad. There's a lot of things that 'just work' better in linux than BSD. I wish I had more time/development experience to volunteer and try and help out with this.

I started using FreeBSD at about 4.6 and have been in love with it since and would love to see a little bit of a jump towards better desktop support. It's one of the main shortcomings I see, especially considering how good it is for me as a server OS. Sat, 13 May 2006 05:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mendicant) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124115 http://osnews.com/thread?124115 Scott Long always beats the big drum when interviewed about FreeBSD, so anything he claims should be taken with a bit of salt.


At least he makes sense on what he is saying in a professional manner unlike linus he acts like he is mr know-it-all at the same time his kernel is on life
support because of bugs and the sco lawsuit. Sat, 13 May 2006 05:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124122 http://osnews.com/thread?124122 that is what i'm saying that freebsd is NOT lacking the ease of use. in onther ways i'm saying it easy to use.

FreeBSD is only easy to use after you spent some hours trying to figure it out. It migt be easy for someone with previous linux/BSD experiences but I really wouldn't recomend any windows user to try FreeBSD as their first unix-like system. Sat, 13 May 2006 07:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (nxsty) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124123 http://osnews.com/thread?124123 I don't know how long ago you have run FreeBSD, but I can assure you that for many years, KDE allowed one to setup a basic PPP setup with a modem, by using the supplied kppp application and setup wizard.

As for the PPPoE, thats a different beast, with can be setup via the use of the GNOME networking tool.

The issue is more to do with portage than a FreeBSD issue; its about making sure that those features that are available on GNOME and and KDE are also available on FreeBSD as well, which will require alot of work and patching as well. Sat, 13 May 2006 07:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124124 http://osnews.com/thread?124124 I see no "dmix" options in the Gnome or KDE sound preferences. Sat, 13 May 2006 07:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Bending Unit) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124126 http://osnews.com/thread?124126 Agreed. I'm using FreeBSD, and the issues the average newbie will encounter can easily be googled or simply read the f*cking manual.

Its not about splittng the atom or coming up with a viable equation for the string theory, just following basic instructions as written. Sat, 13 May 2006 07:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124127 http://osnews.com/thread?124127 But you don't bring up any specific examples. Apple does give back code to *BSD. You do know that Microsoft's network stack has been since rewritten (and if the GPL were required at the time they used it, I'm absolutely sure they would have simply written it from scratch) long ago. If you want to say that Sun "owes," BSD, well do you honestly think they would have derived their flagship OS from 4.4 BSD were the licensing GPL? (unless _they_ owned the copyright) I doubt it, they would have just written it from scratch. And is there a significant amount of 4.4-BSD code left in the codebase? Unlikely.

As for Nokia, I've never heard they used BSD code, or why lacking this threatens BSD's existence.

FreeBSD's competition is Linux, and that is because they occupy the same niche, (and thus more users in an oversaturated market) except that they are different implementations. I would argue that FreeBSD's license is an advantage, by the way, I for one strongly prefer it's license. You should also understand most people don't care much about licenses, and if they did perhaps the GPL would not be so wonderful for Linux.

The problem is that, as I said in another thread, 386 BSD developed too slowly, while Linux was capturing most of the niche, and by the time FreeBSD and NetBSD were getting somewhere, the USL lawsuit almost destroyed the user communities. So the problem really is a Chicken and Egg problem: for FreeBSD to get more users, it needs more users. Those of whom already are happy with Linux. Of course, I'm quite happy with FreeBSD, so I can't say much else.Edited 2006-05-13 08:13 Sat, 13 May 2006 07:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (beyert) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124128 http://osnews.com/thread?124128 Maybe FreeBSD will manage to equal Linux (on the parts that it isn't already) in a year from now because maybe development will stop in the Linux camt to allow FreeBSD to catch up in those areas. That's two maybe already. Especially for the projects they have in mind, developer resources are scarce so maybe neither with progress much. That's the third maybe. But then you have the issue of market. 90-95% of the desktop market is in microsoft hands. Does everyone really think it's a good idea to splinter the remaining 5% even more than it is already? Sat, 13 May 2006 08:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Fred) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124129 http://osnews.com/thread?124129 I still think the main feature needed to be competitive on the desktop for "mainstream" users would be a journaled filesystem. I would be happy either way, but I'm sure joe user would want to get rid of fsck.

That aside, if journaled filesystems offer better performance, which I believe is the case, then it would be nice to have XFS or similar, or better yet, a BSD licensed implementation if the documentation is clear enough.Edited 2006-05-13 08:18 Sat, 13 May 2006 08:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (beyert) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124130 http://osnews.com/thread?124130 I hope you do realise that OpenSound 4.0 is just around the corner, and from what I have heard, the latency and features far exceed that of ALSA.

As for the FreeBSD front, they're addressing the sound issue, but at the time they realise that it needs to be SMP capable as well, hence, taking their time to ensure that their future sound API addresses the needs of not only today, but tomorrow as well. Sat, 13 May 2006 08:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124132 http://osnews.com/thread?124132 I wouldn't agree. FreeBSD and BSD's in general had a large base, what occurs what that USL lawsuite which cut it; it seems that the USL lawsuite has taugh people about the merits, or there lack of, in respects to the sco lawsuite currently in motion. Basically, Linux has lost no people because they've learned from the USL law suite - law suites are the last act of a dying company, in a vein hope of grabbing the last bit of breath before it dies.

As for FreeBSD, FreeBSD is gaining more users, thats not the problem, FreeBSD doesn' need more users, it needs more programmers, more ports maintainers. Sat, 13 May 2006 08:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124133 http://osnews.com/thread?124133 Yes, It is clear that the BSD Operating Systems/Distros are getting near the Linux ones. That is good for all, in general terms (Don't want a Licence diatribe here).

The recent FreBSD 6.1 is a clear example. Even FreBSD 6.1 is getting easier for a non technical user, and the recent DesktopBSD and PC-BSD releases are the prove of it!

As I said it in another threat: "Both PC-BSD and DesktopBSD are excellent, and a very good idea that will help to expand the BSD Operating systems. The competition between both is a good thing aswell, although I hope they are collaborating with each other too and the other BSDs..."

In this way the other BSD ( FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MirOS...) can get more and more "User-Friendly".

For those who want to try the different BSD Distros in a virtual Machine before installing it in a Hard Disk, you can download a very recent "PC-BSD 1.0 VMware image"!

This is the link: http://linuxtracker.org/

and other BSD flavours in WMware Virtual machine:

http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/

http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/all?from=30


If you are not yet a BSD user, I recommend a try of a virtual machine or even an install in a Hard Disk in almost any machine. An old 2 GB Hard Disk even, would be OK (BSDs run smooth and quick in general, even on old hardware). I have 3 BSDs installed in my PCs, and I am delighted with their smoothnes and their evolution towards usability...

The only "but" that I can express here, right now is the convergence with Linux-Gnome-KDE of the BSDs. I understand that is a lot of time and programming saving, but I would like BSDs to evolve in a different direction.
Try for instance to built a differnt "GUI" or try to use the code (if is there any ???) of the Darwin project to built a GUI in the direction of MacOS X. Or try Afterstep and evolve it...

Anyway, Enjoy it, because the era of the "BSD Desktop Ready" OS is also very near! BSD is catching up the Linux easy Distros; and soon both will be easier to install and use for an average PC user than Windows ( some already are)...

Remember that a fresh install of Windows XP is not "Desktop Ready" neither (not to mention a fresh install of Windows 98, Me, 2000...) A fresh install of BSD and Linux is/will be "Desktop Ready" very soon! Sat, 13 May 2006 08:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Angel--Fr@gzill@) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124134 http://osnews.com/thread?124134 "... but BSD licensing does have some plus points"

Indeed it does... if you call a plus taking advantage of someones hard work to make money and not giving anything back.Edited 2006-05-13 08:57 Sat, 13 May 2006 08:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (antonis00) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124135 http://osnews.com/thread?124135 I still think the main feature needed to be competitive on the desktop for "mainstream" users would be a journaled filesystem. I would be happy either way, but I'm sure joe user would want to get rid of fsck.

sorry, i don't, agree. i don't think that is the main feature to stay competitive. windows does not have a journaled filesystem and many people still prefer to use it instead of a OS with a journaled filesystem like linux. Sat, 13 May 2006 08:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124136 http://osnews.com/thread?124136 ...or else, people who trusted it for their servers might look somewhere else. It is because of that apprehension to install a BSD (coz it is, as they say, unfriendly) that makes it, uncommon to the common. And for that, it is mostly familiar only to admins. That exclusivity feel counts for security for servers. If it's not as common, it won't be as vulnerable and easily exploited. Leave that idea to Linux. Save the BSDs for servers. Sat, 13 May 2006 09:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kill) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124142 http://osnews.com/thread?124142 Wether or not NTFS is considered "journaling" isn't relevant. It can start up very quickly after a crash, which is the same advantage, even on a large filesystem.

Trust me, you don't want UFS if you have 3 250 GB drives, I know from experience.Edited 2006-05-13 09:44 Sat, 13 May 2006 09:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (beyert) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124143 http://osnews.com/thread?124143 If you want people to design software _for_ FreeBSD, rather than expect developers to work around incompatabilities, then you want more users.

I do agree that developers are the bottom line, but with more users, companies such as Sun and IBM, ATI, NVidia, Transgaming, Codeweavers are much more likely to take the BSDs seriously.Edited 2006-05-13 10:17 Sat, 13 May 2006 09:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (beyert) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124145 http://osnews.com/thread?124145 However, I suspect that the BSD folks will then have a hell of a lot of tuning to do; Linux folks have been tweaking to improve desktop performance for some time, while the BSD world has been totally server-focused with few exceptions.

It's funny though that people report PC-BSD feeling snappier than regular Linux+KDE. Sat, 13 May 2006 10:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ronald Vos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124146 http://osnews.com/thread?124146 Since performance is a very important desktop productivity criteria, is FreeBSD doing better than Linux?

Depends completely on what you're measuring (as always). And in some cases: yes. Sat, 13 May 2006 10:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ronald Vos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124148 http://osnews.com/thread?124148 Apple is now considering another kernel, why is that?

That's the first I've heard of this. Perhaps you're confused with the announcement some developpers wish to get rid of some parts of the Mach kernel? Sat, 13 May 2006 10:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ronald Vos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124149 http://osnews.com/thread?124149 There is some validity to what you're saying. But, try Googling for something like "starting postfix on archlinux" vs. "starting postfix on FreeBSD" or "installing mysql on slackware" vs. "installing mysql on FreeBSD".

I primarily use Ubuntu and Windows. And, searching for Ubuntu help is pretty productive (alot like FreeBSD's). But, the point is that it's not hit and miss in FreeBSD.

By any chance, have you only experienced the Linux side of your argument? Be honest . . . Sat, 13 May 2006 11:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (backdoc) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124150 http://osnews.com/thread?124150 That's really dependant on the user.
I didn't have any experience with *nix, but I started with FreeBSD and had a bare server running in minutes from the install cd. Adding the extras like nfs, ftp and samba was done in a few hours.
Linux isn't any easier for a Windows user when she/he is a total n00b. Sat, 13 May 2006 11:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (JamesTRexx) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124151 http://osnews.com/thread?124151 BSD is already an ass-kickin' OS. I hope it will continue to get better. GNU/Linux devs... don't fall asleep ya Sat, 13 May 2006 11:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Buffalo Soldier) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124152 http://osnews.com/thread?124152 What is it? National Linux Bashing Day over there? Tjeesh wat a lot of complete nonsense I've read.

What is it that since Linux is hitting mainstream big time (server market, HPC market) I'm reading a lot of threads from a lot of frustrated geeks: "why isn't my *BSD as big as Linux?"

let's be clear: FreeBSD will *never* catch up with linux on the desktop market. Why? Look at all the stuff going on at FreeDesktop.org (it is Linux centered), all the commercial effort put in by BIG companies, the license, the technology (yes, Linus *IS* technically *VERY* good), and so on, and so on.

Admit it, deal with it, get on with it, get a life. Sat, 13 May 2006 11:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (DirtyHarry) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124157 http://osnews.com/thread?124157 By any chance, have you only experienced the Linux side of your argument? Be honest . . .

By that do you mean, "Have you ever used *BSD?". The honest answer is yes. However I've never installed it nor have I had to maintain it. I couldn't imagine it being easier to do so (and to maintain) than Gentoo Linux.

I think I had said earlier that I was speaking based on what I've learned by keeping my ear to the ground and watching technology trends, not based on personal experience at the same depth.

But, the point is that it's not hit and miss in FreeBSD

Alright, there's one side of the arguement. Now, what happens if there's a particular package that you absolutely must have...it's critical to a working environment (to you, personally) - and it's broken in FreeBSD? Or, what if it's not supported? What if the particular configuration hinders your progress w/ that package somehow? *My* point was simply; you have more choice and can be as fickle as you want as a Linux user. Sat, 13 May 2006 13:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124158 http://osnews.com/thread?124158 OMG ! That tired argument again ! Dammit, BSDL developpers are GIVING, repeat GIVING their hard work voluntarily and DON'T CARE, repeat DON'T CARE if people take advantage. In fact, they HOPE, repeat HOPE, somebody will take advantage of their code. They hope also that people taking their code will give back, but they let people FREE to CHOSE. ABSOLUTELY FREE. Sat, 13 May 2006 13:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Manik) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124159 http://osnews.com/thread?124159 No one was bashing Linux, the people who were talking about the reasons for Linux's success were simply trying to combat the constant misconception that BSD's "failed" because of their liberal licensing, which for some reason appears about 3 times in any BSD article, or someone makes some ridiculous statement against the man, saying that code was "stolen," or that BSDL and Public Domain are "unfree," which is also ludicrious.

Why do you tell other people to "get a life," and that "a lot of complete nonsense I've read," I think it is clear who is getting carried away here. Funny it was you who made the claim that FreeBSD will never succeed in the desktop market. I'm sorry, but that matter is up to the developers. You may in fact be right, but your statement sounds like agression taken in defense, as if you were hiding your real opinions but only revealed them when you percieved a threat. Calm down, ok?Edited 2006-05-13 13:31 Sat, 13 May 2006 13:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bw2000) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124161 http://osnews.com/thread?124161 Please dont give me a HAL definition based on Wikipedia stuff. HAL is much more than an automonting support in kernel. Sat, 13 May 2006 13:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Drune) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124168 http://osnews.com/thread?124168 According to all of the sources I've checked, all indicate that NTFS is a journaling filesystem. Microsoft just doesn't use it as a PR marketing term, that's all.

Either way, rather than stating that I want a journaling FS, I should have stated that I want a filesystem that doesn't take a long time to fsck after a crash, and that has good performance. This includes ZFS, NTFS, ReiserFS, XFS, JFS in particular.

Granted, fsck times have been getting faster, but I don't like waiting ~15 minutes (I know 1 TB is a lot of data, but that's the future, especially for servers which probably have >= 10x that storage) and manually intervening after my server crashes, it's annoying even though it almost never happens. I do think that would be a hazard to a desktop user.

I think benchmarks have indicated that the current implementations of UFS and FFS are not as fast as filesystems on most other operating systems.

If the FreeBSD developers come up with a way to make fsck instantaneous (background fsck doesn't work the way I want) and transparent, and improve the performance of inode based structured filesystems, then I'm all for UFS. Just so we have that clear.

That aside, anyone know what happened to LFS? I would like to see how that compares to UFS. Sat, 13 May 2006 14:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (beyert) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124174 http://osnews.com/thread?124174 So by your logic, considering the number of Linux desktop users now exceeds OS X users, we should just go and try to copy the less successful route? Thankfully, you aren't in charge of the BSDs. Linux desktop passed OS X in number of users over a year ago. I guess OS X should try and copy Linux's model since its more successful then what they've tried thus far. Sat, 13 May 2006 14:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (aent) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124177 http://osnews.com/thread?124177 Especially true for threading :-) Sat, 13 May 2006 14:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (netpython) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124178 http://osnews.com/thread?124178 So by your logic, considering the number of Linux desktop users now exceeds OS X users, we should just go and try to copy the less successful route? Thankfully, you aren't in charge of the BSDs. Linux desktop passed OS X in number of users over a year ago. I guess OS X should try and copy Linux's model since its more successful then what they've tried thus far.

If OSX try Linux's model, surely most of windows users will convert to OSX instantly, but in the same time Apple declares its bankruptcy. What you called "success" is false/unreal, because it only gives very few benefits to its developers. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Babi Asu) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124179 http://osnews.com/thread?124179 Loading Apps, working on OpenOffice.. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (youcha) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124180 http://osnews.com/thread?124180 Even if FreeBSD were to clean up their act to compete on the desktop they would still fall far behind Linux.

First, hardware support is nowhere near that of Linux. I mean, if I closed my eyes and chose a computer at the local computer store, I'd have better chances with Linux than FreeBSD in terms of hardware support. All of my machines run Linux nicely. FreeBSD fails in some aspect on all of them. Not a very good showing in my experience.

You only have a small group of committers who can add to the project but with Linux, there are thousands of people working to debug, test and improve the system on a DAILY basis. (Yes, I know that FreeBSD has nightly builds via CVS.)

In short, FreeBSD was late out of the gate and will never catch Linux because the the underlying support structure of Linux is stronger, better, and faster than any of the BSDs.

Okay...flame away! :-)Edited 2006-05-13 15:06 Sat, 13 May 2006 15:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (garymax) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124181 http://osnews.com/thread?124181 Compared to netBSD or openBSD, FreeBSD installer is quite user friendly.

I see your point, about dividing the installer into user friendly and advance user, thats something that could be considered. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (lobster) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124182 http://osnews.com/thread?124182 ... there is no apt-get like in Ubuntu
Ports and other pkg_* tools work just as good as apt-get. If you can do apt-get install something its not difficult to do pkg_add -r something or portintstall something. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dark child) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124184 http://osnews.com/thread?124184 Okay...flame away! :-)
ok :-)

First, hardware support is nowhere near that of Linux. I mean, if I closed my eyes and chose a computer at the local computer store, I'd have better chances with Linux than FreeBSD in terms of hardware support. All of my machines run Linux nicely. FreeBSD fails in some aspect on all of them. Not a very good showing in my experience.

'Failing' is a bit harsh word imo, some specific options of hardware might not be supported. But afaik all the popular/general hardware is supported.


You only have a small group of committers who can add to the project but with Linux, there are thousands of people working to debug, test and improve the system on a DAILY basis. (Yes, I know that FreeBSD has nightly builds via CVS.)

FreeBSD has more committers then linux (uhm, linus + two or more others?)

But yes, there are more people developing for the linux kernel then there are for the freebsd kernel. But linux development model still doesn't do it for me.



In short, FreeBSD was late out of the gate and will never catch Linux because the the underlying support structure of Linux is stronger, better, and faster than any of the BSDs.

Yes FreeBSD might never cache linux desktop hardware support, but sometimes I wonder if I want it to. Sometimes I find it hard, to see all the stories how good linux is as a server, while imho freebsd is better at it. On the other hand, it's probably better for the development of freebsd. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (auwts) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124185 http://osnews.com/thread?124185 Yes, it gonna happend, and this will be a default program later:

http://www.daemonology.net/depenguinator/ Sat, 13 May 2006 15:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Babi Asu) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124186 http://osnews.com/thread?124186 By that do you mean, "Have you ever used *BSD?". The honest answer is yes. However I've never installed it nor have I had to maintain it. I couldn't imagine it being easier to do so (and to maintain) than Gentoo Linux.

FreeBSD is lot easier to install than Gentoo. You can have a working FreeBSD base system in 5 or 10 minutes, whereas Gentoo will take you a lot longer. As for maintenance, I find it to be more or less the same but the ports system does not need a lot of tinkering with like portage e.g. there is no time wasted unmasking packages, you just install the version you wish and everything else is automatically sorted out.Edited 2006-05-13 15:29 Sat, 13 May 2006 15:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dark child) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124187 http://osnews.com/thread?124187 Most of the apps are OSS so why bother?

Well, most apps can run on Windows, so why bother with Linux or FreeBSD? Because they're better at some things, of course... Sat, 13 May 2006 15:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (smitty) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124188 http://osnews.com/thread?124188 As for Nokia, I've never heard they used BSD code, or why lacking this threatens BSD's existence.

As an FYI, Nokia's IPSO OS is derived from BSD. It's a hardened OS purpose-built for security and routing functionality. It powers their enterprise-class security platforms. While maybe not as visible to the average consumer, Nokia IPSO-based platforms are a dominant player in the enterprise security space.

Interestingly, though, they are in the process of migrating from BSD to linux as the basis for IPSO. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (elsewhere) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124189 http://osnews.com/thread?124189 Choosing to install Gentoo w/ a graphical installer or doing it manually is entirely voluntary. I choose to use a manual installation to get exactly the system configuration I prefer vs. accepting a particular set of packages that are pre-arranged by default, like other distros do. This is what sets Gentoo apart from any other other distro or operating system...it's simply a collection of packages that you assemble...you get exactly what you want and nothing more, if you don't want it.

I don't think the Gentoo manual installation is hard...the documentation is so simple and clear...all you really have to do is follow steps. I completed my laptop last night in under 2 hrs., minus compile-time. Today I have a beautiful, fast Gnome desktop.

The masking feature in Portage is quite nice...it helps make system maintenance stupid-proof for those people who will attempt to install something that isn't quite ready for prime time unknowingly. For those that do want that bleeding edge package...it's as simple as adding a line to a list in a packages.keywords and/or packages.unmask file.

This system is intuitive and smart, IMO. Sat, 13 May 2006 15:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124191 http://osnews.com/thread?124191 I couldn't imagine it being easier to do so (and to maintain) than Gentoo Linux.

That depends on one's experience. To you, Gentoo obviously is easy and I salute you for that. To the average user, it is not. Take me, for example. I'm not a programmer; though I understand a bit about programming and have worked in a few languages I've never created anything of value and I don't really have a knack for it. I use Slackware as my Linux desktop, and I'm comfortable building from source but I'm not quite a "power user" by most definitions.

I've tried installing Gentoo; I even got it installed one time. It was far from easy and once I did get it installed it just seemed so obtuse and backwards to me. Why should I have to do all these things myself? I know, it allows me to have an OS that is perfectly meshed with my hardware and my way of using the OS. For someone like me, though, it's much less frustrating to find a distro (Slackware) that is already very close to my way of thinking and performs well with my hardware.

I've installed FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. By far, the easiest was FreeBSD but it was only marginally easier than Gentoo. I did end up with a working system, and given time with it I'm sure I could get it to do everything I can get Slackware to. However, I'm keeping my eye on DesktopBSD (the distro) to see what they have in store for the future of Desktop BSD (the concept). I have a feeling it will be a very good thing for someone like me. Sat, 13 May 2006 16:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Morgan) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124192 http://osnews.com/thread?124192 Who "chooses" to run Windows? When was the last time you heard about Joe Sixpack, off the street, walking into a retailer and purchasing Windows XP because of how great he heard it was? This was the case in 1995 but Microsoft has only survived off of the momentum of their initial success by remaining deeply rooted in the market.

Now, how often have you heard of the average Joe buying a new PC whether retail or mail-order and getting Windows pre-installed and using it simply because it's there? People use Windows because it dominates the desktop and everyone else uses it...and they know they're "compatible". It dominates the desktop (today) because nearly every manufacturer pre-installs it.

If manufacturers pre-installed a single Linux distro of choice, say a de-facto standard of Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. - we'd easily see the same dominance of "Desktop Linux".

In the market today we just don't see that position. This could be changed by vendors more aggressively seeking partnerships w/ PC manufacturers and resellers. Sat, 13 May 2006 16:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124196 http://osnews.com/thread?124196 ...the BSDs are almost as complete as Linux, now. I used PC-BSD for months as my primary computer and it was wonderful. Let's not forget NetBSD which is another great BSD. I don't know how many of you have tried these operating systems LATELY, but they are right up there with Linux as far as what they support (hardware and recent software). In some things they might be a version behind, but they work well.

Seriously, if I left my Macs for a PC, or even if I just HAD a spare PC, I would be running NetBSD on it. (At least until Haiku is released

Actually, who knows, maybe NetBSD will run on my mini and, if so, I just might partition my drive and install it! Sat, 13 May 2006 16:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tuishimi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124198 http://osnews.com/thread?124198 Agreed, Gentoo is not easy as it is not necessarily intended to *be* easy. It's a learning experience and that learning experience is not for everyone.

The advantage Gentoo would give you over FreeBSD (as I see it) is superb, up-to-date, documentation backed by a thriving (and growing) community who is polite and ready to help you fast, if you should need it.

My question is; is that same attitude & momentum available in FreeBSD. Will I get forum answers in minutes? Will I find the same numbers of people who've been through the same pain and can help me quickly solve it? Will all of my hardware work how I want it to? Sat, 13 May 2006 16:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124202 http://osnews.com/thread?124202 "... but BSD licensing does have some plus points"

Indeed it does... if you call a plus taking advantage of someones hard work to make money and not giving anything back.

As someone who has done corporate development under both the BSD and GNU licenses, and has given back equally (and held back equally) in both environments, I can say that in the real world this argument is a non-starter.

It's easy enough to get around the GPL and LGPL and not 'give back'.

Meanwhile, the BSD license makes it possible for me to use BSD in environments where GPL is unacceptable to management -- and I still get to 'give back' any changes made to BSD.

Companies protect what they believe to be their IP when they use the GPL just as readily as when they use the BSD license.

You don't think so? Ask google about their distributed Linux system some time. Sat, 13 May 2006 17:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124203 http://osnews.com/thread?124203 I've used BSD on my desktop in one form or another since 1983. As a developer I've always found it superior to Gnome based Linux distros because it's not spending all of its cycles running Gears...

I'm sure there are people for whom turning Un*x into a second rate imitation of Windows is a good thing. But there are plenty of Linux based distros for that already.

It's sad to watch BSD descend into that morass, because people confuse popularity with quality. Sat, 13 May 2006 17:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124205 http://osnews.com/thread?124205 Competition is extemely healthy! I think it's fantastic news.

BSD is alread a fantastic desktop and server operating system. If BSD wasn't bogged down in litigation all those years ago then there would probably be no Linux.

It can only prove to improve these sister platforms in the long run.

I wonder how much MS will take (ar..eh) `appropriate` as it continues to bleed massively from its own `success` as both BSDs and Linux capture more of the `free` market. Sat, 13 May 2006 18:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (aGNUstic) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124206 http://osnews.com/thread?124206 Okay, maybe "failed" is a bad choice of words. But the hardware support was terrible. How's that? :-)

In a way, I want FreeBSD to do well, though.

"Committers" was the wrong word. I meant that more people are busy looking at the source and can contribute patches and such like than there are in FreeBSD land.

Good discussion! Sat, 13 May 2006 18:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (garymax) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124207 http://osnews.com/thread?124207 Who knows,FreeBSD has a good hand of cards that's for sure.

1)Friendly licence
2)Consistent package system (There's only one FreeBSD) thus easy to develop for. Sat, 13 May 2006 18:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (netpython) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124217 http://osnews.com/thread?124217 The reason Linux is more widely used is simple: The GPL. The GPL forces any one that modifies Linux code to contribute it back to the community.

Thats total bull

Licences are a developer issue. (Most) users don't care about bsd vs. gpl.

FreeBSD has enough developers. The project is not suffering due to licence choice.

Also, the GPL does not by any means require you to contribute anything back. I have modified gpl software for internal use at my office, and have not contributed back (the changes are pretty much client specific). The only thing that the gpl says is that I would have to distribute the source code with the software if I were ever to distribute to anyone else. Sat, 13 May 2006 19:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (openwookie) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124250 http://osnews.com/thread?124250 So they've just been waiting for hal and gnome? Sat, 13 May 2006 20:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124252 http://osnews.com/thread?124252 Ofcourse FreeBSD is not just a kernel, it's a complete OS.

Yup, a complete OS, borrowing a large part of their GUI technologies from third party, non-BSD sources.

Am I to understand that a complete OS means a CLI only environment developed by the same team? Sat, 13 May 2006 20:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (r_a_trip) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124256 http://osnews.com/thread?124256 If manufacturers pre-installed a single Linux distro of choice, say a de-facto standard of Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. - we'd easily see the same dominance of "Desktop Linux".

There have been (at least) four attempts to sell PCs with Linux preinstalled. In three cases, the vendor got out of the business because they weren't making money. The fourth, by Dell, recently started and the jury's out. Sat, 13 May 2006 21:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124258 http://osnews.com/thread?124258 meant that more people are busy looking at the source and can contribute patches

Do not confuse quantity with quality. Sat, 13 May 2006 21:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124260 http://osnews.com/thread?124260 Am I to understand that a complete OS means a CLI only environment developed by the same team?

A complete OS is one where a usable system is available as a single package. Fedora Core is a complete OS. FreeBSD is a complete OS. Neither GNU nor Linux are complete OSes. Even if I grab a kernel from kernel.org and the entire GNU tree from FSF, I don't have the makings of a complete OS, since I would be lacking bootstrapping and installing software. Sat, 13 May 2006 21:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124285 http://osnews.com/thread?124285 Yes, there have been very, very small-scale attempts where mfg's have "dipped their toes" but not really made a full-scale effort to sell a real, usable Linux-based PC.

Sure, there's Lindows or Linspire (or whatever they're calling themselves today) which by most standards is a pretty lame distribution. I've seen screenshots of it and it appears to be quite hideous. However, it might be wonderful...I'm being superficial here.

Then there's Wal Mart who at one point was selling them online (who buys PCs online from Wal Mart?) It was a non-event that made geek news...I never saw advertising for this anywhere else...especially at Wal Mart or in Wal Mart flyers or commercials.

Dell is selling them now (very quietly) and I'm sure it's not nearly as easy for the Average Joe to go to Dell's site and purchase a Linux desktop machine (in fact, I just tried...I can't find it at all.) In fact, all I see for home users are WinXP-based models..."Dell Recommends!" Well, if Dell recommends then it must be good, eh?

Even a search for "linux" for "home users" pulled up nearly NO results at dell.com - save for one...a boxed copy of SuSE Enterprise Server 9 for 325 bucks! On page six of the results! A search from the home page pulls up a bunch of workstations for which you can't switch the OS from XP Pro to a Linux-based system!

I thought I remember HP making a similarly feeble attempt at selling Linux-based workstations for "high-end" work a few years ago, I'm sure that's toast as well.

Be Real.

Where's the real mainstream effort here? Why does it not exist? Linux isn't good enough? I don't buy that for a minute, I've installed it for several people who have loved it, used it, and while having pains interoperating w/ friends & family who use Windows...survived and thrived w/ Linux. Sat, 13 May 2006 22:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zambizzi) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124316 http://osnews.com/thread?124316 I completley agree with this. If FreeBSD wants a desktop they should get one that can leverage the underlying system. They should not spend energy trying to work around portabillity issues with GNOME.

Majbe the could try to hijack the KDE project and make it theris. I fear GNOME is getting mindshare as THE linux desktop. If FreeBSD started to use KDE it would be an interesting battle...

But as the OP said, GNUStep is our there. It would be really natural to build on that. This way they'll get the benefit of beeing different from Linux at the same time as riding the Mac OSX wave...

Third options would be to differentiat even further and produce a BSD licensed system, focusing on integation with the rest of the system. Sun, 14 May 2006 00:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (John Nilsson) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124332 http://osnews.com/thread?124332 You mean it will compete for Oblivion?
Cause that's were Linux is you know.. nowere near the desktop... Sun, 14 May 2006 01:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (shakeyshakey) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124341 http://osnews.com/thread?124341 exactly what competition? linux holds a small desktop margin comparing to windows 90% desktop market. since we all
know the scale goes up to a 100% and windows owns 90% that would leave about 2% to linux and the 8% to the other OS like mac. i think it would be more correct to say "linux came up short dethroning windows as the desktop king. now it's beasties turn to take out the microsoft empire". Sun, 14 May 2006 01:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (happycamper) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124413 http://osnews.com/thread?124413 Er...
BSD does have a Hardware Abstraction Layer.
Or has the GNU/Linux camp decided to adapt the abbreviation for something else?

Please clarify what you are talking about, because now you're not making much sense. Sun, 14 May 2006 08:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Marcellus) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124549 http://osnews.com/thread?124549 Linux may be infringing on SCO's code + a dozen other IP patents. FreeBSD is in the clear since the AT&T lawsuite.


That's one difference that nobody has talked about. Sun, 14 May 2006 17:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (stephanem) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?124908 http://osnews.com/thread?124908 Actually, I'd say FreeBSD is the best way IF you want to learn how to use UNIX. Yes, FreeBSD IS UNIX in every way but the certified (costly) way. The excellent documentation will get you very fast where you needto go and the size of the community is more than large enough. Mon, 15 May 2006 20:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Chreo) Comments