http://www.osnews.com/story/14998/On_Morning_Crossness_and_Coffee-to-go_Queues Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:38:32 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread?137140 http://osnews.com/thread?137140 If you do not mind my asking what is the rate for calls from T-Mobile to KPN?

For me (in the US) the cost is the same no matter who I call in the CONUS. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kokopelli) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137141 http://osnews.com/thread?137141 This whole thing was hypothetical, of course. I thought that was pretty obvious. I was trying to show what a lack of net neutrality could lead to.Edited 2006-06-25 23:24 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137143 http://osnews.com/thread?137143 Could you add a disclaimer to the bottom? I was seriously confused untill I read the comments. Because I was trying hard to remember hearing anything about the KPN-Vodafone deal. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ronald Vos) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137146 http://osnews.com/thread?137146 If you are going to post a fictional example it would be nice to add a disclaimer for simpletons like myself. I thought you were using a real world example to point out the benefits of net neutrality.

Thanks for the clarification though.

EDIT: Maybe I am alone in this but I know very little about the phone rates in Europe. That my quadband worked fine over there and prepaid cards are cheaper is about the extent of my knowledge. When I read a news site I generally expect to read facts I guess.Edited 2006-06-25 23:33 Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kokopelli) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137148 http://osnews.com/thread?137148 While this article is a nice exercise in creative writing, I think it falls a bit short of offering any supportive evidence that the current draft of net neutrality legislation is right way to go. There are so many issues and arguments at hand, from the US global economic position, to our telecom infrastructure with regard to domestic emergencies and homeland security, to getting broadband access in rural areas (build out reqs), freedom of info, to capitalism in general. Check out the testimonies on cspan, read some info on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality. That's where I'd start. The suggestion that without net netreuality we are doomed to incompatible services and market monopolies seems naive to me. However, as a hypothetical example... yes, I think it seems probable. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tbostick78) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137154 http://osnews.com/thread?137154 I honestly thought this was going to be about the effects of coffee and being cross in the morning. I'm dissapointed.

p.s. seriously, I thought it was going to be about coffee. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sequethin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137161 http://osnews.com/thread?137161 Yeah, I was hoping for some coffee stuff too. Then again, if t'was about coffee, some posters will go out and ask:

WTF?!?! I Thought this is OSNews not CoffeeNews or FoodNews!

:) Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (qroon) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137169 http://osnews.com/thread?137169 I went and made a cup as soon as I started the 2nd paragraph...

Im extremely happy about net neutrality in the us, because there are 4 major cariers in my area(Verison, Cingular, Sprint, Tmoble, in order of popularity), and i have friends on all 4, paying extra would kill me more than my data plan (stupid cingular...1mb a month..) Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (amp306) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137171 http://osnews.com/thread?137171 hehe, man I so thought this was about coffee, or the lack of it. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Jedd) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137178 http://osnews.com/thread?137178 from all that time on the #skyos channel i really believe you hated the US or was it just me Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sardonic) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137179 http://osnews.com/thread?137179 I'll bet that's really good coffee in Amsterdam too. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137180 http://osnews.com/thread?137180 I thought it was going to be about the lack of caffeine, nice plot twist. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137183 http://osnews.com/thread?137183 Regular Shyamalan over here.

Yeah, I was one that found it "a bit too much." Didn't realize it was a fictional metaphor about NN until reading the comments. To be fair, though, the only hint was the part about the US formalizing NN, and I just figured that was a quick-witted jab at a current event. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Alex Forster) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137190 http://osnews.com/thread?137190 I know it was made up, But I don't think it's very easy to follow. Maybe it was just a bad analogy, since you are talking about cell phones. Maybe it's just they way they are different in different countries. In the US, it cost the same to call anyone, though with some plans people on the same carrier are free. And text messaging only cost you if you sign up for it, just an add on to your plan, otherwise it's free. Doesn't stop it from being an annoying way to contact someone.

Still, I thought this story was going to end with someone beating you down for being an impatient angry person talking on a phone while in line. I can't stand those people. Really wish starbucks would add something to stores that makes cell phones non-functional. Or at the very least add "coffee nazi" where bad behavior in line, such as cell phone talking, or making your order complicated results in a one year ban from starbucks. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Brad) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137195 http://osnews.com/thread?137195 i thought it was about "people always have to find something to bitch about" and I was about to agree wholeheartedly!

Lets say they were included in the deal Every carrier is treated fairly and pays the same amount. But we all know T-mobile has the cheapest data plans.... now all of a sudden the network is dragging because of all the internet traffic that tmobile customers generate. So without tmobile knowing you just 'accidently' start dropping certain traffic. Next week the traffic slows down from internet surfers on Tmobile but you leave the 'accidental' packet filter in place. Doesn't this also deal with net neutality?

What about that damn american idol voting? What about uploading photos and video from the phone to yahoo photos?

All net neutrality issues in my mind.... Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (deanlinkous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137198 http://osnews.com/thread?137198 as far as it not being applicable....

Where/how do you think those cellphones get routed to califorina from virgina or from paris to madrid. I am sure it hits a hard link and passes thru various networks also and the same thing could applyI would think.

I dont think it is simply about the providers and what they pay though even though that is certainly where it all starts to breakdown and it is the first concern. I am waiting for micrsoft to partner with a tier1 and block all firefox traffic! Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (deanlinkous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137202 http://osnews.com/thread?137202 Ok, let's see what I thought during reading this short and not really good thing:
- first I thought, this guy is stupid, if there's a long line and 3 minutes to go, why does he stand in, is there no other place to get coffee in AMS ?
- then I thought, this guy is stupid, he's thinking about cell phone costs when the issue is about talking to his girlfriend
- then I thought, this guy is stupid, he lives in AMS, probably earns 5x or more than I do, and can't afford to just make phone calls without such fuss about prices ? (this is not about whether it could be cheaper or not)
- then at the end I thought, well, if this is everything this guy could come up as a story to back the net neutrality issue, than he'd really need some more coffee Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (l3v1) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137204 http://osnews.com/thread?137204 - first I thought, this guy is stupid, if there's a long line and 3 minutes to go, why does he stand in, is there no other place to get coffee in AMS ?

No, not at that station, no.

then I thought, this guy is stupid, he's thinking about cell phone costs when the issue is about talking to his girlfriend

She ain't my GF.

- then I thought, this guy is stupid, he lives in AMS, probably earns 5x or more than I do

I don't live in A'dam, and trust me, I don't make 5 times as much as you do. I'm a poor student.

then at the end I thought, well, if this is everything this guy could come up as a story to back the net neutrality issue, than he'd really need some more coffee

Or you need to make less assumptions.

This one was simply a bit more complicated than usual columns/articles here. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137209 http://osnews.com/thread?137209 Isn't the issue something like this?

Right now everyone connecting to the net buys a connection of some sort, with defined bandwidth parameters, and after that, what they do on it is of no concern to the bandwidth suppliers. In particular, if your traffic is search engine traffic, movies, code downloading, the bandwidth supplier has nothing to say and charges the same commercial terms. It makes no difference at the moment which site you visit, its all bits.

This is exactly like the phone system model. I buy 5 10 or 20 phone lines. The calls I make or receive and their profitability are of no concern to the phone company. The phone company has nothing to say about who I call, except by their location and tariffs. It cannot, for instance, charge one rate for calls to mail order, and another for calls to stockbrokers, in the same city.

It is also the postal service model. If I am receiving checks for 000's of dollars, it makes no difference, I and my sender pay exactly the same, the going rate for a letter.

Now, if net neutrality goes, this could stop. We could then gradually slip into a different model, in which a bandwidth supplier would charge differently (or give different service levels, which is the same thing) based on their judgment of the value of the traffic.

There are two objections to this. First that the model is all wrong. It destroys predictability and opportunities for profit seeking behaviour. It moves cash flow for applications away from users of communications to providers.

Second, it makes censorship easy. It could just turn out that to access politically incorrect sites is very slow, that they find it very expensive to get connectivity, they end up in a special sort of usage code tariff. Precedents are many. If something can be used for censorship, it will be.

This is presumably the point of Thom's comparison between mobile operators and the net in his imaginary future. In this imaginary future, net neutrality has vanished for mobile operators, but remained for the net. So there are innumerable complexities and price barriers for interconnection in mobiles, but none on the net. The article is asking: do you really want to see the net become like the imaginary future mobile scenario?

If not, do something about it.

PS. We may all want to learn that irony does not fly with OSNews readers.... Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alcibiades) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137211 http://osnews.com/thread?137211 kids these days are spoiled. I remember 300 baud modems. There should be some penalty for hogging bandwidth or people abuse it. I pay for a phone. Why should people get free phone service by abusing the internet? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TDavis) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137212 http://osnews.com/thread?137212 It's sad you think about phone-costs when trying to call one of yer, supposedly, best friends. For me it made your entire editorial less valid than it could've been.

Anyways... Does this mean the editorial on what's wrong with Explorer will be posted next week? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (XemonerdX) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137213 http://osnews.com/thread?137213 It's sad you think about phone-costs when trying to call one of yer, supposedly, best friends. For me it made your entire editorial less valid than it could've been.

Don't take everything so damn literally. This is a column, reality is spun to serve a point I'm trying to make.

Go out and buy a newspaper every now and then, and read the columns in there. You'll see similar premises.

Does this mean the editorial on what's wrong with Explorer will be posted next week?

Yup. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137214 http://osnews.com/thread?137214 Here in switzerland the main phone company is offering an MSN-enabled gadget that for 15EUR a month allows unlimited IM on the go.[1]
I thought it was quite a stupid thing to own, but if you think to how much teenagers use sms (and how much they cost individually) I guess it's quite a sweet deal.
What about IM integration on cellphones? Is it feasible? I think I would be quite interested in such thing.


[1]http://www.ogo.ch/ Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Jack Malmostoso) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137218 http://osnews.com/thread?137218 Go out and buy a newspaper every now and then, and read the columns in there. You'll see similar premises.

So your point is that something is okay as long as others do it too? Whatever works for you I guess... Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (XemonerdX) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137219 http://osnews.com/thread?137219 So your point is that something is okay as long as others do it too? Whatever works for you I guess...

*sigh* My point is that columns, allthough not always of course, allow more freedom to play with reality to convey a point than a normal article does. If you expect everything that's written to be an accurate, 100% representation of reality-- you'll be in for a surprise. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137223 http://osnews.com/thread?137223 And here I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, even Thom had recognized that monopolies aren't a good thing for consumers.

Unfortunately it turned out it was just a rather weak article about net neutrality.

To anyone interested in this matter, if you want to know how to make a far more convincing argument in support of net neutrality, check out the post by Tim Berners-Lee on the subject:
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/144 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ralph) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137227 http://osnews.com/thread?137227 Thom,

Please explain to me what this fictional drivel has to do with operating systems and the news thereof. You seem to consider this site, conveniently called "OSnews" to be your own personal outlet for whatever irrelevant thought comes up in your mind. This is not your personal blog. Can we have Eugenia back? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Fred) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137228 http://osnews.com/thread?137228 Please explain to me what this fictional drivel has to do with operating systems and the news thereof.

Since when does stuff about Net Neutrality not belong on OSNews? Did you post the above also in the other topics on the subject here, on OSNews?

Other than that, we have said many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times that OSNews is about more than just operating systems. It even says so on our about page. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137230 http://osnews.com/thread?137230 Nice piece, keep it up Thom! Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (DevL) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137231 http://osnews.com/thread?137231 criticism != hate Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (DevL) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137233 http://osnews.com/thread?137233 Don't take everything so damn literally. This is a column, reality is spun to serve a point I'm trying to make.

Go out and buy a newspaper every now and then, and read the columns in there. You'll see similar premises.



I detect some morning crossness.

Are you sure you want to vote this comment -1?
Yes, this comment includes personal attacks/offensive language.
Sorry, to prevent abuse, you cannot vote on administrator comments. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (peejay) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137234 http://osnews.com/thread?137234 Nice piece, keep it up Thom!

It's funny, your comment looks like a spam.

No I am serious, I receive the same exact comments on my blog, and they are spam.

Were you trying to illustrate the drawbacks of Net Neutrality? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bouh) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137242 http://osnews.com/thread?137242 Typical how must disinterest there is.People only start to realize something when it's to late.The environment,life forms that have been driven into extinction,new deseaces dueto global warming to name a few.

The net should be as neutral as any postal service.The quality of service varies ofcourse depending on how much you want/can afford.But more important noone should be able to influence the service itself you are entitled to.I guess many are to busy with themselves and their little eco-system.Edited 2006-06-26 14:04 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (netpython) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137246 http://osnews.com/thread?137246 "what this fictional drivel has to do with operating systems"

The evolution of the Internet will be the most significant single determinant of the world to which operating systems have to adapt. The most significant single factor which will determine the future of the Net is whether it will remain 'neutral', ie keep the common carrier model, or evolve to some kind of closed partitioned and access/content censored model.

Its very hard to form a clear view of the way a non-neutral Net would affect OSs, but it certainly would. Its much easier to see what a non-neutral net would look like. Once we understand that better, we may start to be able to visualize the effects it would have on other areas. Its important to do.

This is what the fiction has to do with OSs. Now, whether its good or bad fiction is a different matter. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alcibiades) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137248 http://osnews.com/thread?137248 "Since when does stuff about Net Neutrality not belong on OSNews? Did you post the above also in the other topics on the subject here, on OSNews?"

Should I have? I will, if you want to. Well, lets not, I have better things to do. This specific case irked me though. The issue is important, maybe important enough for OSnews. This fictional drivel, which I keep calling it despite you being its author, is not. Personally, I think you're all to glad to have a larger reader platform in OSnews then you'd ever get elsewhere, so more and more you start posting your own views, interpretations, columns and whatnot on the OSnews site instead of on a more appropriate location, like your personal blog.

Even though you say so on the "about" page that OSnews is about more than just operating systems, fine. But should that include fantasy writing? Where is the limit here? How far out of whack does it have to go for the editor team (is there any, besides you anyway?) to disapprove the thing? I mean, I assume noone has to approve anything you write, you just slap it on the front page, but would you have allowed such a piece if it was written by, say, me?

Want to write crap like this and have it read? OSviews.com, kuro5hin.org, etc are more appropriate, IMO. Maybe you should consider seperating your position as editor and as opinion writer on this site. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Fred) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137249 http://osnews.com/thread?137249 I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "the media". The point of the media is not only to give you the news unbiased, but ALSO to give reflections on that news, personal opinions, whatever. That's what articles are for.

Are you seriously suggesting the media stop writing opinional pieces? I don't get you, I'm sorry.

But should that include fantasy writing?

If that fantasy is used to convey a point strongly related to the website and its focus-- why not? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137254 http://osnews.com/thread?137254 Thom - We have different views on quite a few things. But that's ok. If everyone thought and felt the same about things life would be EXTREMELY boring.

As for the story. I really liked it. It shows how not having net neutrality or not having competition are very bad things.

The story also reminded me of my recent trip to Amsterdam, Germany, and a couple other countries. Very good memories of my vacation there. It's good to get out of the U.S. and see how other people live.

As for the policies of America, we may be "represented" but they often times don't represent or create policies that reflect how the "average American" wants things. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sabon) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137268 http://osnews.com/thread?137268 "Are you seriously suggesting the media stop writing opinional pieces? I don't get you, I'm sorry."

Obviously. Forget it, I'm not going to try and explain it to you either. Don't make assumptions of what I do and don't understand about the concept of "the media". The difference between your stuff and opinions and editorials I read in "the media", is that the latter hold credibility, at least for me. They're written as opinions and editorials, not as farfetched fantasy novels. But maybe that's just because I pick and choose the media I read. Too bad that OSnews is degrading to a medium I choose not to.

"If that fantasy is used to convey a point strongly related to the website and its focus-- why not?"

Too bad you forgot to make the actual point you want to convey. Maybe I missed it, I dunno, but I'm used to reading articles which make sense. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Fred) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137288 http://osnews.com/thread?137288 You know you shouldnt go to coffeeshops before writing a story, dont you?

j/k
Ps: If you dont get it, go read up on coffeeshops in the Netherlands. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (maxx_730) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137290 http://osnews.com/thread?137290 Thom's sunday thing is op-ed...Ever read the editor's little thing in your newspaper? It usually has to do with current affairs or a response to something that was mentioned in the last issue. It's rarely anything but an opinion.

Don't expect facts when reading opinions...you'll always be disappointed. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (aesiamun) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137294 http://osnews.com/thread?137294 Awww you won't be reading anymore?

That's too bad... Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (aesiamun) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137305 http://osnews.com/thread?137305 Why is the disclaimer at the end?
Reminds me of the Itchy and Scratchy epsiode with the warning at the end "This program contained scenes of violence and should not have been watched by kids" Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137323 http://osnews.com/thread?137323 I didn't think that the story was hypothetical. It reminded me of the situation here in Israel, where the three major cellular companies (Cellcom, Pelephone, and Orange) have a huge fixed fee ("Connectivity charge" they call it) for calling outside your network, let alone do text messaging. Also, the fourth provider, Amigo/MIRS, is no very accessible from outside, so it is not rare to see people that posses two or three phone from different companies. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (IgorKH) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137381 http://osnews.com/thread?137381 There are so many issues and arguments at hand, ...

I personally am very confused about network neutrality. Almost everything I read about it makes me favor it. I want the internet to be like a sidewalk--no one limits who can walk on it, or when, or where, and no one collects tolls.

But the problem is--most of the politicians who support it, especially those often highlighted at http://www.savetheinternet.com/ seem to be the enemies of freedom on other issues.

I know that that veers into politics, which we studiously avoid here. But apparently network neutrality is a very political issue. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (KenJackson) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137384 http://osnews.com/thread?137384 When Thom says; 'pick up a newspaper'. He doesn't mean a porn mag (The Sun?). If you read a REAL (UK) newspaper like the Times, or Telegraph. You'll notice that many of the columns are written in this style. This is because they are aimed at intelligent people who appreciate a bit of gentle whit in their life.

Stephen Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (stestagg) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137386 http://osnews.com/thread?137386 Grief! Most of the people here are critiquing editorial style or lamenting that the article wasn't about coffee. But you, Mr. Alcibiades, you are actually addressing the issue that the article was about. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (KenJackson) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?137416 http://osnews.com/thread?137416 'As for the policies of America, we may be "represented" but they often times don't represent or create policies that reflect how the "average American" wants things.'

Amen to that. The Texas-Wyoming posse in the Casa Blanca, the Congress, and Supreme Court are `way` out of touch with the core of the people in the U.S.

It's so easy to judge the top open-percent from a foreign shore. Oh well. May be they can milk a bull or play in a plop toss.

As for me, I'll continue to work on people's broken windows and clean out the raw sewage that's on their drives. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (aGNUstic) Comments