http://www.osnews.com/story/15040/Editorial_The_Chaos_of_Incompatibility_in_Mobile_Linux Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:09:56 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread?138406 http://osnews.com/thread?138406 Compatibility was always one of my biggest problems with linux, my friends that use linux always had problems with programs running on diferent distros, they would only be able to put them work if they could find a port, if not, sometimes the source code wasn't good enought :S

If this happens in the current cellphones with linux, well i will stick to Simbian, i have a N70 and i simply love it. Undreads and counting of aplications that run perfectly, Turbo MSN, SmartMovie, Virtual Radio, all of them work perfectly and they are platform compatible. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Claymore) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138408 http://osnews.com/thread?138408 One of the reasons why Motorola is pushing Java is binary compatibility issues. When you have cellphone with limited memory you can't release compat libraries for every little point revision a la Linux nor can you maintain backwards compat by not shedding older APIs a la Windows. To allow Motorola with enough freedom to change the underpinnings of the system there needs something that is sufficiently detached. Java solves this problem and provides a platform independent binary layer too! Of course J2ME is a piece of shit on 99.9% of all platforms but in theory it's sound. :-) Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mahoney) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138410 http://osnews.com/thread?138410 >When you have cellphone with limited memory you can't release

Linux phones come usually with 32 MBs of RAM. "Normal" cellphones come with 4 or 8 MBs. This is not a case of "not enough memory".

Additionally, no one wants different libs for each revision. We want compatibility to the point of Windows. There are revisions on WinMob as well, but they are generally very compatible.Edited 2006-06-29 02:07 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138413 http://osnews.com/thread?138413 I am talking about ROM space here and in the cellphone business every cent is important. Besides to that comes testing costs, certifications etc. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mahoney) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138414 http://osnews.com/thread?138414 The compat-libraries are not in "ROM". They are in flash. And new cellphones have lots of flash storage space. For example, both my Mororola Linux phones come with at least 48 MBs available (of an overall 64MB flash -- the rest is used by the OS). Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138415 http://osnews.com/thread?138415 Normally I don't agree with Eugenia at all and we have exchanged some mild unpleasantries in the past -- yet I think she is 100% right about this situation.

As the maintainer of a free-as-in-beer but closed-source Adventure Game Runtime engine port for Linux, I have lamented for years over the fact that Linux is not a PLATFORM. The lack of stable, standard, well-documented APIs and even the small differences between distributions make application development on Linux a headache at best.

This problem isn't limited to the mobile platform, although it seems to be the worst there. I also find it hilarious that they would consider Java to be the only acceptable solution in the mobile environment. Embedded platforms are the perfect place for native applications when it comes to performance. In addition, until the Java Mobile platform is standardized better, your application being written in Java doesn't mean much at all.

Mobile phone vendors who have their own Linux distributions and others seem to lack the most basic understanding of the release engineering principles seen in quality projects such as OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Solaris and other older operating systems. The Computer Research Group where BSD originated had fine examples of what should be done to help establish a platform. It's amazing how many people today ignore the lessons of the past in the name of progress. It seems mobile phone vendors are more concerned about their profits in the short-term then establishing a viable long-term platform for their users (not so surprising). Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (binarycrusader) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138417 http://osnews.com/thread?138417 is filled with game development for cell phones:
http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent%20Updates

My take on it is that with BREW low and high resources, Java low and high resources, and limitations and differences between hardwares, it's a very difficult issue to tackle in a standard way, and it has nothing to do with Linux in particular. Actually, Linux should feel at home in such diverse ecosystem. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (negativity) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138418 http://osnews.com/thread?138418 This isn't a Linux issue, this is the way the cellphone industry works. JavaME isn't compatible across phones. Symbian isn't compatible across profiles and most vendors use a different profile (UIQ versus Series 60 versus Series 30). Heck, unless you're on GSM you don't even get much choice regarding what phones are available. Who cares about compatibility of apps across phones? I'm happy when I have enough of a signal to make a successful call.

And what is the crap with the "one, last, chance" comment? If Linux doesn't take over the cell phone market then suddenly it won't ever take over any market?

What a lame article.Edited 2006-06-29 02:35 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138421 http://osnews.com/thread?138421 Don't cite winmob as an ideal for mobile systems... Please, I've crashed 5 far too many times to believe it's a decent system at this point. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ma_d) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138423 http://osnews.com/thread?138423 CELLphones are not compatible, SMARTphones are. Do you think that Nokia, Palm and MS are stupid for striving to offer their own platform with binary compatibility? For example, Panasonic and Samsung had offered S60 phones in the past too, and they were compatible with Nokia's S60 phones.

This is what people want more and more.

Regarding S60 2nd and 3rd Edition incompatibility this was a consious decision to break compatibility, just in order to fix the broken security model of Symbian 7.1. If Nokia could, they wouldn't break it.Edited 2006-06-29 02:44 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138425 http://osnews.com/thread?138425 The cellphone/PDA only has to run a full-featured desktop c.q. run a decent browser, excelling in display and excelling in commnunicating with the periphrery devices. Nothing more. What more do you want to do with a phone.

You really don't want to store anything on it, only some boot code. So when the battery is low, the phone get lost and your PDA get stolen you still have access
to your precious data, with any other phone with browser.

Applications will be developed with the MVC paradigm, the phone is just a dummy display, speaker and microphone.


NO 1. The great majority of DSL modems are running Linux UC (u cee Linux) talking the Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM) cell relay network protocol


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_Transfer_Mode Edited 2006-06-29 02:51 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (openbsd-user) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138434 http://osnews.com/thread?138434 That's funny, and could really help a certain proprietary company sell software with little customizations.

PC = Personal Computer, the standard hardware since the eighties.Edited 2006-06-29 03:03 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (negativity) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138457 http://osnews.com/thread?138457 CELLphones are not compatible, SMARTphones are.

No they aren't and you even give examples of how they aren't in your own comment.

Do you think that Nokia, Palm and MS are stupid for striving to offer their own platform with binary compatibility?

Which is three different incompatible platforms right there. Lotta good that does you. And Nokia isn't compatible across all their smartphones, Series 30 and Series 60 are not compatible, nor are their Linux devices.

For example, Panasonic and Samsung had offered S60 phones in the past too, and they were compatible with Nokia's S60 phones.

Which aren't compatible with UIQ from Ericsson (also Symbian) or anyone else.

This is what people want more and more.

Right, and that's why Palm is now using WinMob on the Treo, because of good compatibility with PalmOS, right? That's why Nokia uses three different smart platforms, Linux, and 2 Symbian. That's why Ericsson Symbian isn't compatible with anyone else (not to mention Ericsson's other, failed, smart platforms). WinMob isn't compatible with anyone else. Motorola isn't compatible across their phone lines. Heck, JavaME isn't compatible and its Java.

Who are you kidding, this isn't a Linux thing, this is a cell phone industry thing. And seriously, get a grip, no one but you really cares. Most of us are happy to manage to receive phone calls reliably, forget about "smart" features. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138461 http://osnews.com/thread?138461 You start to get on my nervers, because you are taking things into your own spin.

>Which is three different incompatible platforms right there.

Yes, because they are different OSes. I am not asking in my article to have ALL cellphones to be compatible. I am asking the LINUX-based cellphones to be compatible.

>Which aren't compatible with UIQ from Ericsson (also Symbian) or anyone else.

UIQ is not S60. It has a different GUI, it is not source compatible, it was never meant to be. UIQ was created by a third party company and THEN nokia bought them. Nokia wanted to CLOSE them down (exactly because they didn't want to confuse their users with S60 and UIQ), but Sony Ericsson needed them because SE didn't wanna use S60.

And besides, who told you that I am happy about UIQ and S60 not being compatible? I am not happy about it either! Closing down UIQ and adding touchcreen support on S60 is the right thing to do.

>Right, and that's why Palm is now using WinMob on the Treo, because of good compatibility with PalmOS, right?

Please! Palm goes with Windows because PalmOS is DEAD. And Windows Mobile has over 30 phones out there, it has ALREADY an ESTABLISHED application base of 20,000 apps.

> And seriously, get a grip, no one but you really cares.

Most people don't care, that's true. But more and more, do care, especially young people. In the future, most people will require their phone to do "more". And all I am asking is for the available platforms today, to be READY for that day. And for Linux to play a ROLE in that future, it MUST be compatible with its incarnations. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138466 http://osnews.com/thread?138466 Eugenia, you qualify as an extremely demanding early adopter, a character doomed to perpetual disappointment with every product you buy into. That's the price you pay for being so eager to jump on new technolgies: they are too expensive and don't offer all of the features they should.

The Linux-based ultra-mobile client is very immature as a platform, and therefore there is an advantage for hardware vendors to get in on the ground floor and try to drive the technology. That's what they're doing. Not only is platform unification contrary to the best interests of the hardware vendors, but unification at this point is not in the best interest of the average (non-early-adopter) consumer.

As you point out, none of the Linux mobile devices are satisfactory yet. They all have their problems. Why should the industry standardize on any one of these lackluster implementations? It is in the best interest of the consumer for the industry to wait until one or two of the implementations start to dominate based on natural market forces. In other words, let the market take care of unifying the platform. This will work better in the mobile phone market than it did on the desktop because mobile phones are less commodified.

So, Eugenia, you'll have to bear with the market while it shapes a mobile Linux platform worth unifying around. The more the vendors attempt to innovate on their incompatible platforms, the longer it will take for a winner to emerge, but also the more capable the resulting platform should be. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (butters) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138482 http://osnews.com/thread?138482 Why should the industry standardize on any one of these lackluster implementations?

Therein lies the rub. "The industry" has fragmented into four groups, each trying to standardize on a slightly different lackluster implementation.

It is in the best interest of the consumer for the industry to wait until one or two of the implementations start to dominate based on natural market forces.

That's asking for WindowsMobile to become the dominant player, although I doubt it will be based on "natural" market forces.

In other words, let the market take care of unifying the platform. This will work better in the mobile phone market than it did on the desktop because mobile phones are less commodified.

In all of the fields I've done operating systems for, mobile phones is probably the most heavily commoditized, even more so than the desktop; although people outside of the industry don't seem to realize this because there are so many different packagers of phone bits. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138486 http://osnews.com/thread?138486 You start to get on my nervers, because you are taking things into your own spin.

If by "your own spin" you mean I actually worked in the cell phone industry and know the history and reality of the situation, then sure.

Yes, because they are different OSes. I am not asking in my article to have ALL cellphones to be compatible. I am asking the LINUX-based cellphones to be compatible.

Why should all Linux based cellphones be compatible when (demonstrable) no other cellphones are? And to try and lump that with Linux's future possibilities is just silly.

UIQ is not S60. It has a different GUI, it is not source compatible, it was never meant to be. UIQ was created by a third party company and THEN nokia bought them. Nokia wanted to CLOSE them down (exactly because they didn't want to confuse their users with S60 and UIQ), but Sony Ericsson needed them because SE didn't wanna use S60.

Sorry but wrong. I worked for Ericsson during the Psion/Symbian split. The concept from day one was that each provider could and would have their own profiles. UIQ was one of Ericsson's profiles. They also had something closer to Series 60 which never made it to widespread production. That doesn't take into account Series 70 or any of the other Symbian derivatives that were around before Nokia bought out most of the stake in Symbian. The rest of that comment is nonsense, Ericsson was one of the original 4 that formed Symbian, Nokia had no say or ability to close UIQ down (especially since UIQ didn't even exist when Symbian was created, it was Psion version 5 at that time).

And besides, who told you that I am happy about UIQ and S60 not being compatible? I am not happy about it either! Closing down UIQ and adding touchcreen support on S60 is the right thing to do.

Of course that won't happen and the reason is because cell phone providers don't need or want to be compatible.

Please! Palm goes with Windows because PalmOS is DEAD. And Windows Mobile has over 30 phones out there, it has ALREADY an ESTABLISHED application base of 20,000 apps.

Wow! 30 phones! Wow! Of course, Nokia, by itself, has more than that many GSM models and they run on at least 5 different operating systems (two regular cell phone systems, Series 30, Series 60 and their Linux devices).

Most people don't care, that's true. But more and more, do care, especially young people. In the future, most people will require their phone to do "more". And all I am asking is for the available platforms today, to be READY for that day. And for Linux to play a ROLE in that future, it MUST be compatible with its incarnations.

Sorry but there is no data that young people or anyone else (except you) cares beyond the ability to interoperate at the SMS/MMS and IM level. The fact that people are willing to spend more for a poor 10 second ringtone then they do for an entire song on iTMS should clue you in on that. You might was well save yourself some time and end this crusade now. Especially since you don't seem to be terribly familiar with the cell phone industry or how it works.Edited 2006-06-29 05:52 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138490 http://osnews.com/thread?138490 I truly enjoyed this one. Especially the part "No I'm not an optimistic person". The fact of the game is that Linux has had compatibility issues from day one on all platforms. In 90% of all articles someone goes "It is getting better", but getting better, and still stuck in incompatibility land is really just peoples bad judgement.

Now regarding Linux on the cellphone. First of all, I don't really care if it's Windows, Linux, Symbian or PalmOS on the cell. I've noticed that what really matters for me is simplicity and that it just works. Linux is hardly known for this, neither is Windows, in fact only Palm is. Unfortunately though, their future doesn't look very promising.

Solution: I'll buy a simple gsm phone, which can call, store numbers and send SMS messages. Almost nothing can go wrong then. For all other stuff... just bring the laptop! Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Haicube) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138492 http://osnews.com/thread?138492 Real world visibility : GNU/linux mobile phone market exist and is improving , more and more and more and more new devices and software solutions and serive providers are coming and will be made.

GNU/Linux is not driven by hype , its funny how charactherized and boxed , some people try to explain to themself the GNU/Linux industries and market , GNU/Linux thrive on progress and evolution , GNU/Linux is like the Mark Cuban , Michael Jordan and Albert Einstein of this world , those are people who became genius and top experts in there respective field by trial and errors and learning from there mistakes , and listening to others needs and whants , coming from the very bottom and reaching the top , The mobile market phone worldwide is not plagued by Microsoft blockade that GNU/Linux suffer on the PC desktop market , hence GNU/Linux is accounted for in the sales category and is not an after market unaccounted division.

Mobile phone companies join forces on Linux :

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Major_cell_phone_companies_working_on_L...

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6083883.html

News flash: Wireless major leaguers working on cellphone Linux

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/06/news_flash_wireless_major_...

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/06/details_docomo_et_al_to_la...

An international palace revolt headed by Motorola, Samsung, and Vodafone could overthrow Symbian, Nokia, and Microsoft :

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=17253&hed=Linux+Attemp...

Nov. 14, 2005 :

Consortium tackles Linux mobile phone standards

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6030689030.html

LiPS plans to start by creating a profile for low-end phones, before working up to profiles for higher-end phones with a greater number of attached peripherals. Gien stated, "We're starting with low-end phones, asking, 'What is the set of minimum functions for the Linux kernel to go into a phone?' "

He adds, "It'll be an incremental process. We will try to define a set of profiles that can represent a class of phones. We are trying to minimize the number of profiles, and group the set of functions so they can go into each category."

Founding members of LiPS include: ARM Ltd., Cellon, Esmertec, France Telecom/Orange, FSMLabs, Huawei, Jaluna, MIZI Research, MontaVista, Open Plug, and PalmSource. Additionally, membership is growing "on a day-to-day basis," according to Ostrem. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Moulinneuf) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138494 http://osnews.com/thread?138494 > Now regarding Linux on the cellphone. First of all, I don't really care if it's Windows, Linux, Symbian or PalmOS on the cell.

You're right; in fact you shouldn't even think about it because all in all it's just a damn mobile phone and whether it runs Linux or SchnappiOS version XYZ doesn't matter.

And regarding Linux in particular: it was never designed to be used in embedded, resource-constrained systems. I wonder why it is even considered as an option... Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (corentin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138498 http://osnews.com/thread?138498 "Yes, because they are different OSes. I am not asking in my article to have ALL cellphones to be compatible. I am asking the LINUX-based cellphones to be compatible."

Why not? If Joe User don't care what OS his phone runs he would also want compatibility regardless of OS.

"And for Linux to play a ROLE in that future, it MUST be compatible with its incarnations."
Linux is. It's the customized API's and extra stuff that isn't but that has *NOTHING* to do with Linux and everything to do with the manufacturer of the device.
It also doesn't really have anything to do with Linux "future" in the field. If Linux continues to work well for the manufacturers it will have a future. If it it doesn't, it will be gone.
Oh yeah, and "Linux" in itself doesn't really have any interest in being a market leader or anything in the mobile space. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138503 http://osnews.com/thread?138503 Why should all Linux based cellphones be compatible when (demonstrable) no other cellphones are?

That's the stupidest argument I've read thus far. That would be like someone in 1984 saying "why should Macintosh have a GUI when no other personal computers do?" I thought the idea was to challenge the status quo and not just accept what everybody else is doing.

Is there some advantage to the rest of the cellphones being noncompatible? Can you possibly see the advantage from a developer's standpoint of having compatibility within the Linux platforms? Do you see *some* overlap in effort here by the four competing Linux-based platforms? Can you imagine that collaboration could strengthen the four Linux smartphone platforms, and as a result benefit us all?

I'm glad you're shooting for mediocrity. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gtada) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138505 http://osnews.com/thread?138505 "Linux has one, last, chance to become the No1 OS in a particular consumer-oriented market (not counting servers): the mobile phone market."

that's what urked me. One, last, single, change, withhold the drama and all u get is ' companies are trying out linux again, let's see if this time it'll fly '

it's not so dramatic as to say, this is their last chance.

this is also implying that linux was on phones before and failed.. i dunno was it? it wasn't on any of my phones in order to judge for myself.

that's all ;-p Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (joesnow) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138508 http://osnews.com/thread?138508 That's the stupidest argument I've read thus far. That would be like someone in 1984 saying "why should Macintosh have a GUI when no other personal computers do?" I thought the idea was to challenge the status quo and not just accept what everybody else is doing.

Welcome to the real world. Cell phone manufacturers have no incentive what so ever to make their products compatible at this point in time. Until they do, don't expect them to bother standarizing. Do you think Apple would have developed the GUI if they didn't think it would benefit them?

Is there some advantage to the rest of the cellphones being noncompatible? Can you possibly see the advantage from a developer's standpoint of having compatibility within the Linux platforms? Do you see *some* overlap in effort here by the four competing Linux-based platforms? Can you imagine that collaboration could strengthen the four Linux smartphone platforms, and as a result benefit us all?

This is an industry which used to write a new OS for each and every model line. Cell phone providers are perfectly happy making things difficult for developers and developers are perfectly happy having things be difficult as long as they can continue charging 10x more than what a PC developer would be able to charge for an app. The fact that users are inconvienced is irrelevant. Users are far more inconvienced by poor coverage, dropped calls, incompatible networks, etc. And yet, for all that, people are continuing to migrate to cell phones. Of the list of problems regarding cell phones, source or binary compatibility across phones is about second or third from the bottom.

I'm glad you're shooting for mediocrity.

Mediocrity? I don't think so. Failing to provide cross platform phones doesn't mean the phones are mediocre, it just means they aren't compatible. Failing to provide decent coverage, dropping calls, those things make cell phones mediocre. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138509 http://osnews.com/thread?138509 I'll tell you guys what. I have a Motorola A780, a supposed *smartphone*. However, it's difficult to find any apps, and Motorola was stupid for only allowing J2ME (SLOW SLOW SLOW) 3rd party apps AND keeping the fun API's locked away (such as JSR 179 for GPS). I was considering writing a few applications for it, but why? It'd only be compatible for a few Motorola phones, and I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the A780's unique hardware.

BTW, rhavyn I believe you understand the technical aspects of the cellular industry, but you seem to miss the difference between the smartphone and cellphone users.

Cellphone buyers want to spend the least amount possible for a phone that at minimum can txt msg and maybe has a decent camera. They just need a basic phone that has good reception to be happy.

Smartphone buyers on the other hand tend to be corporate and actually do care about applications. These smartphone buyers won't go for a free cellphone, but would rather pay hundreds of dollars for a smartphone that has push email and other features. For example, after spending $500 for a phone, they wouldn't hesitate to pay $20 for a golf scoring program for their smartphone.

Now let's look at this from a developer's standpoint. Well shit, it sure makes it four times harder to support four times the platforms. I can't for the life of me see why there can't just be two or even better one Linux smartphone platform. Would you be inclined to write and support an application four times for four similar-yet-different-enough platforms, or would you choose something easier like Windows Mobile?

A smartphone is different from a cellphone because of its extra PDA functions. The extra functionality comes in part from available 3rd party applications. The fragmentation of the Linux smartphone platform makes it less compelling to create 3rd party applications. In the end, this fragmentation only means less applications for a technical user market that DOES care.

P.S. I'm selling this Motorola A780. Brilliant hardware, retarded software. J2ME is a joke, the guy at Motorola responsible for this should be fired, and again, kudos to Motorola for making it hard as f--k for the developers. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gtada) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138512 http://osnews.com/thread?138512 gtada, very, very well said. Thank you. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138531 http://osnews.com/thread?138531 I work for a company that writes software for both Palm and Pocket PC's. We've recently looked into porting our software oto smartphones. At present this will not be hapening because of this exact issue. If we make the oivestment to write our software we can't target only a small portion of the smartphone market.

It's bad enough that there is 3 competing OS's. At this point the only platform we could even consider is Windows and we don't want to go develop on windows unless it's the only option.

Linux on the mobile will die a slow death, the same way things happened on the desktopif it's competitors, linux, get their act together.

Why do you think Windows won the desktop wars in the 90's? Why do you think that PS2 one the console war last round? The answer is because of applications. Most consumers couldn't careless what OS a phone, computer, console, etc runs. They do care what softwae is available for it. When some one sheels out $500 for a phone they're going to buy the phone with the applications they need more often than not.

If this state of fragmentation continues we'll see that windows based phones start selling better, an better. Not because their interface is nicer, not because it runs windows, but because theirs 10 times as many applications that are available.

So to all the previous posters that think it's acceptable to continue in this manner, I suggest you open your eyes and realize that the status quo eventually becomes yesterdays news and a more intelligent business model will prevail. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Gunderwo) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138532 http://osnews.com/thread?138532 Sorry about all the typos, it's late, I'm tired and forgot to proof read. :S Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Gunderwo) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138556 http://osnews.com/thread?138556 It is easy to create distro-independent binaries. Why it is done so seldom is unknown to me, but you can find binary distro-independent packages. You will however have to handle dependencies manually in most cases.

Compatibility for linux distributions are a non-issue if the distributions ship with the correct libraries. Of course, in order to hold down the size of the system, some distributions tend to take shortcuts, ruining this compatibility. That of course is extremely annoying. But so far I've encountered no compatibility problems with LFS, Gentoo, Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu. I wonder how the situation is for Suse and Mandriva. They should work equally well.

When complaining about lack of compatibility among mobile phones, one has to remember that the platforms are different, and problems in porting software from one platform to another is bound to exist. Expecting otherwise would be naïve, at best. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 10:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dylansmrjones) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138558 http://osnews.com/thread?138558 There are usually not any particular compatibility issues on the Linux platform. Such incompatibilities usually stem from lack of libraries in certain distributions, and have nothing to do with the compatibility level in Linux, but merely in that distribution. In which case it should be avoided, or the necessary libraries installed.

Claiming that "Linux has had compatibility issues from day one on all platforms" is however right out false, and you know that. Linux suffer no more from this than Haiku does or OS X or any other system. You know that as well. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dylansmrjones) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138565 http://osnews.com/thread?138565 Actually, the fact that many smartphones are incompatible with each other is a matter of no-one forcing them to do that. And that's part of the fact that industry behind Linux is weak.

If you look at Windows Mobile, for example, you will notice that most apps built on 2003 will work on 2005 (before you ask: I checked that on my own. Did u?). Same goes for Java (installed many J2ME applets on different phones and most of them perfectly worked.)

Saying that SmartPhones don't need to be compatible with each other is wrong. They should. Of course, each vendor tries to build a semi-exclusive eco-system to force users to choose its phones and thus it's a matter of software makers to force them to keep their phones compatible. Microsoft does this. Sun (with Java) does this.

Eugenia is right when she says that phones should be compatible, expecially from users' perspective. When you say people only wants phones to be able to do phone calls you simply demonstrate not to know that industry you said you were part of. Many large companies are planning to switch part of their notebook base from notebook themselves to smart phones like WM5-enabled phones. A few customers asked my company to evaluate the possibility to move part of their internal applications to smart devices. Sure, you have some 13 y/o kids or 60 y/o grannies who wish phones to be able to call only, but you can't account them for the whole industry.

And you know what? Reason why WindowsMobile is getting huge marketshare is not only because they're good devices, but also because they're compatible with most data you might have on your desktop PC. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TBPrince) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138567 http://osnews.com/thread?138567 In the Linux desktop world, distributions are generally compatible (you can actually just run an app most of the time) because they are full of the same open source software.

In the mobile world, where the user interface and phone logic on top of a modified Linux system is poprietary did anyone really think phone manufacturers and developers wouldn't get protectionist about this? It's called proprietary thinking, and Microsoft does it. The only option in this world at the moment is Symbian, because at least I can install things like Opera and Oggplay on any phone with little effort.

Linux using companies don't seem to realise that they are bit part players, and it is no time to be getting protectionist. The best thing Trolltech could do to increase their market is set up a consortium for Qtopia so that phone infrastructure based on it can all be compatible, in a similar way to Symbian. Symbian isn't perfect, but it does seem to work. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138568 http://osnews.com/thread?138568 First of all i would like to say that... The Linux isn't problem. I thing Eugenia missed one thing. Than Linux is not GUI. Linux is the kernel. So Linux is the one, standard PLATFORM for all vendors that make their own distros for their cellphones based on it. This is great & problematic in the same time because Linux do not got one simple framework. It's just give you kernel with few tools, that may help you make your own OS with Linux kernel. Just that & only that. Problem is not Linux. Problem are vendors, that do not make any standard framework for making software to work on all distros. The same thing is with normal Linux distros on PCs. The choice is good, but too much choice make chaos. & this is what Linux is currently. When You go to some website of some nice software You may find there few or even many packages of the same software for many distros (debian, fedora, slackware, suse, ubuntu etc. etc.). This is bad, because it shows that developer don't have to write software, they must check how it will work on all Linux distros & then make packages containing librariers that are, or that aren't on some distro & sometimes even make some pathes because differences in kernel. This is sunject for another story ofcourse, & with smartphones & Linux it is even harder because differences in hardware. but... As i sayd, Linux is platform. The problem is that vendors can't make this platform work in same way for all. They got wonderfull things, but they have to use 3rd party framework for making software for it. Here chaos comes & destroys compatibility. In the graphic industry the OpenGL was born, & OpenGL ES. Those are common used standards, used on all archs & all hardware platforms. It's made with ARB consorcium. Why cellphone & PDA makers can't make such standard that let apps run on all platforms? Because it's not give monopoly for one of them. It will then shows real differences in OS. Now the main difference is software list. & everyone knows that WM is winner here. Do you think that they will wan't make their software run maybe even better on other smartphones that with WM? I don't think so. So even if Linux is great platdform, it will die...Edited 2006-06-29 11:47 Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Nicram) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138577 http://osnews.com/thread?138577 When you cound Linux out, you should remember that Linux provides manufactures with a good way to customize their products, while still covering some ground with a standard solution, and they don't need to license nor pay royalties to Microsoft for their software products. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (negativity) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138594 http://osnews.com/thread?138594 And you know what? Reason why WindowsMobile is getting huge marketshare is not only because they're good devices, but also because they're compatible with most data you might have on your desktop PC.

.NET also makes them extremely easy to program apps for.

I agree with Eugenia on this, saying its ok for Linux smartphones to be incompatible because other vendors smart phones aren't compatible is like saying its ok for Win2k to be imcompatible with winxp because OS X and VMS are incompatible.

The fact is if I download a Windows Mobile 2005 app for my pocketpc smart phone, it will work. If I download a linux smartphone app, it may or may not work depending on which phone I have. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (eggs) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138598 http://osnews.com/thread?138598 A more representative and correct title would be "The Chaos of Incompatible Linux Mobile Initiatives" since it has everything to do with the different Mobile Linux groups and nothing to do with Linux itself. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138605 http://osnews.com/thread?138605 .NET also makes them extremely easy to program apps for.

Definitely. But I would say that's not the only factor to consider. Right now, I think there are 5 or more Java mobile apps for each Windows Mobile app so people is actively developing for mobile systems.

However, I doubt that given current uncertainity about Linux itself there can be an explosion of native Linux apps on mobile systems. Using Java it's easier and makes developers far more confident that their applications will be able to run on most phones. I doubt someone would invest in developing native apps which might not work in 3-4 months when new phone will be released.

Please also consider that given the current price tag at which such apps get sold (most apps get sold from 5$ to 15$) real money is behind higher sales so every developer is encouraged to use frameworks which allow them to sell their software on different systems.

I understand that phone makers are very scared to help that because they fear phone prices could get even lower than today so they're willing to loose developers' consideration to keep price a bit higher but they should also consider that won't last.

By the 2008, we will have millions of devices which can potentially can be a target for developers, faster and smaller CPUs which will let people do more and (hopefully) better batteries. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TBPrince) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138606 http://osnews.com/thread?138606 "If you are a Linux enthusiast and you would like to see Linux become a powerful mobile platform rather than become a forked-like-hell implementation throwing itself left and right depending on some companies' wishes, then write to them and ask them to form an aliance that includes all existing aliances."

Why not create a petition at one of the many free petition sites? Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (carpeweb) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138615 http://osnews.com/thread?138615 >I thing Eugenia missed one thing. Than Linux is not GUI. Linux is the kernel.

Oooooooooh... how could I miss that! :o

Give me a break. You think we don't know what Linux is? When we are talking about Linux, we are talking about the whole SOLUTION, unless specified as a kernel-only. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eugenia) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138622 http://osnews.com/thread?138622 ... learn, assimilate and dominate...

Well, things are getting done. freedesktop.org (sp?) is coming up with standards too. The situation is improving. Just a bit slow... Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (xiaokj) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138629 http://osnews.com/thread?138629 Smartphone buyers on the other hand tend to be corporate and actually do care about applications. These smartphone buyers won't go for a free cellphone, but would rather pay hundreds of dollars for a smartphone that has push email and other features. For example, after spending $500 for a phone, they wouldn't hesitate to pay $20 for a golf scoring program for their smartphone.

Wrong, wrong wrong. Corporate buyers want a Blackberry's functionality. The ability to install applications doesn't even come up on their radar.

The people who actually want to install third party applications are people working in emergency services and manufacturing. But all their business goes to Nextel nee Sprint. And they aren't installing programs they downloaded from the net.

The people who want binary compatibility are geeks. And the cell phone industry just doesn't care about them.

Now let's look at this from a developer's standpoint. Well shit, it sure makes it four times harder to support four times the platforms. I can't for the life of me see why there can't just be two or even better one Linux smartphone platform. Would you be inclined to write and support an application four times for four similar-yet-different-enough platforms, or would you choose something easier like Windows Mobile?

Next you're going to be arguing that it's "necessary" for console game platforms to be cross platform or people won't buy them. Sorry, that's living in fantasy land. Console game developers and cell phone application developers enjoy the ability to charge hugely more than PC developers for a fraction of the functionality a PC developer needs to provide. But, you know, if there was actually a problem finding applications for phones you'd have a point. But there is no such problem and those developers are all laughing their way to the bank (along with the network providers and the handset makers).

A smartphone is different from a cellphone because of its extra PDA functions. The extra functionality comes in part from available 3rd party applications. The fragmentation of the Linux smartphone platform makes it less compelling to create 3rd party applications. In the end, this fragmentation only means less applications for a technical user market that DOES care.

Uh huh. Seriously, absolutely no understanding of the cellular industry. If any of that mattered huge platforms like PalmOS wouldn't be suddenly killed. Handset makers would, at least within their own line, standardize on a platform. And things which are sold to be "cross platform" like JavaME would make a half hearted effort to be cross platform which currently doesn't happen.

Guess who buy cell phones? Not corporate types. The biggest buying demographic are women between the ages of 25 and 40 and teenagers. The next biggest is manufacturing and emergency services. Corporates are far, far down the list and RIM has enough of their business locked down that the other providers have little incentive to chase that niche of the market. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138633 http://osnews.com/thread?138633 In the meantime, smartphones will be outselling normal phones and consumers will be on the look out for native applications to enrich their phones.

You say that there are not many yourself included happy with the current status of integral linux (distro) compatibility.So those who do must be purists right?

Likewise, a lot of people allready have a cell-phone by now.Only purists,teenagers have multiple telephones,pda's(nothing wrong with that).Companies could't give an rats ass about something they don't use.A cellphone for someone who need s to be mobile.

Most cellphone companies aren't making that much profit anymore.What is most hot (most appealing fuctions) will be sold.

MS itself doesn't have many apps to offer.I have to see someone running Visual Studio .Net on their cellphone.
Yes compatibility.Viri are very compatible. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (netpython) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138643 http://osnews.com/thread?138643 Of course that won't happen and the reason is because cell phone providers don't need or want to be compatible.

Neither Moto nor Nokia now think that way. Moto is working hard to reduce the number of OSes and profiles they have to deal with, as is Nokia.

While it was once true, the major players are discovering that they can reduce costs dramatically by reducing the number of OSes they support. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138645 http://osnews.com/thread?138645 Welcome to the real world. Cell phone manufacturers have no incentive what so ever to make their products compatible at this point in time.

They have three incentives, and they're acting on all three of them:

1) They get to reduce development costs
2) They get to reduce return rates
and
3) They get to reduce training costs for customer support.

Motorola and Nokia are both making major efforts to reduce the number of OSes they support and to standardize on application frameworks, for example. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138650 http://osnews.com/thread?138650 Wrong, wrong wrong. Corporate buyers want a Blackberry's functionality. The ability to install applications doesn't even come up on their radar.

Palm would strongly dispute this argument, as the ability to customize aps to an industry is one of the stronger selling points of PalmOS based phones.

If any of that mattered huge platforms like PalmOS wouldn't be suddenly killed. Handset makers would, at least within their own line, standardize on a platform.

PalmOS hasn't been "suddenly killed." PalmSource has slowly bled it to death by not providing a reasonable update in over 5 years.

Handset makers are moving to standarize on a platform within their own line. Both Nokia and Motorola have extensive in-house programs to reduce the number of platforms. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138669 http://osnews.com/thread?138669 In addition to those three incentives, add
(4) operator pressure to support customization across manufacturers (vendors would rather not, but carrier requirements have been growing steadily narrower)
(5) aftermarket software makes the phone much more desirable to many customers and can provide both vendor revenue and carrier revenue
(6) easier to bring in new technologies if you use the same platform the technology innovators do (like Linux)

Seriously - Motorola and other vendors WANT to have a Linux-based platform, they're just struggling with how to create one. There have been multiple attempts (CELF, LiPS, the unnamed foundation); maybe one of them will reach critical mass.

EZX wasn't intended to be a broad platform, it was intended to be a limited-market product; the last thing Motorola would want to do is open it up and have it grow a following while they're trying to build and promote a next-generation software base designed to be a real platform, open to third-party development. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (achates) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138671 http://osnews.com/thread?138671 Neither Moto nor Nokia now think that way. Moto is working hard to reduce the number of OSes and profiles they have to deal with, as is Nokia.

Sure, Nokia is down to 5ish OSes and Moto is down to half a dozen or so. There still isn't going to be broad cross platform support any time soon in the cellular market. The best you might be able to hope for is that your apps will run across a single handset makers phones. But good luck ever cross handset or cross network carrier compatibility to any extent. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138674 http://osnews.com/thread?138674 Palm would strongly dispute this argument, as the ability to customize aps to an industry is one of the stronger selling points of PalmOS based phones.

So it's popularity that is causing Palm to dump PalmOS in favor of WinMob. See, I thought it was a near lack of market penetration. Not that WinMob has any market penetration to speak of, but at least WinMob isn't quite the horror show that PalmOS is. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138676 http://osnews.com/thread?138676 (4) operator pressure to support customization across manufacturers (vendors would rather not, but carrier requirements have been growing steadily narrower)

The only operators who are excerting that kind of pressure are Sprint/Nextel and Verizon. And for the most part, those companies deal with the second rate handset makers who would do pretty much anything to keep their business. Nokia, for example, has the GSM market wrapped up and it's odd to even see a Nokia handset for Verizon/Sprint/Nextel.

(5) aftermarket software makes the phone much more desirable to many customers and can provide both vendor revenue and carrier revenue

There has been no evidence offered by anyone on this thread that there is broad customer demand for aftermarket software on their phone. There is, however, a huge amount of market data that people aren't interested in advanced phone features beyond SMS/MMS and IM.

(6) easier to bring in new technologies if you use the same platform the technology innovators do (like Linux)

Except you're talking about, for the most part, mutually exclusive sets of innovations. 3G network support is not an innovation the Linux kernel developers care about. And I highly doubt the cell manufacturers care about iSCSI support. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138680 http://osnews.com/thread?138680 Nokia, by itself, has more than that many GSM models and they run on at least 5 different operating systems (two regular cell phone systems, Series 30, Series 60 and their Linux devices).

Get your facts. Nokia only use 2 OSes on their phones: Series 30/40 platform which is based on a propietary embedded os and Series 60/80/90 platform which share the same Symbian OS core and base UI classes. Nokia doesnt use Linux on phones.

Cell phone providers are perfectly happy making things difficult for developers and developers are perfectly happy having things be difficult as long as they can continue charging 10x more than what a PC developer would be able to charge for an app. The fact that users are inconvienced is irrelevant.

This fact mean less sales, so carriers and developers are definitely not happy with it. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (stare) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138690 http://osnews.com/thread?138690 Exactly.

This was a great article that exposes the propoganda of linux evangelists.

Linus is just a KERNEL. That's not an operating system.

Maybe these phone companies should try REACT OS or BSD. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Eric Martin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138692 http://osnews.com/thread?138692 This was a great article that exposes the propoganda of linux evangelists.

Or shows how much passion someone can have towards gadgets. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (netpython) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138699 http://osnews.com/thread?138699 Get your facts. Nokia only use 2 OSes on their phones: Series 30/40 platform which is based on a propietary embedded os and Series 60/80/90 platform which share the same Symbian OS core and base UI classes. Nokia doesnt use Linux on phones.

Sorry but just because you want to group Series 30 and 40 together and 60/80/90 doesn't make it true. And I didn't say Nokia shipped Linux on their phones, I said they use 5 different OSes, which is true. Nokia, however, is quite clear that they are not planning on offering a single platform. They will continue to use Series 30 for their regular handsets, Series 60 for their mid line smart phones and Series 80 for their high end smart phones. And they have not indicated that they are going to switch off of Linux for their Tablet line. Which means you are looking at a reduction to 4 OSes of which 3 of them are incompatible (30, 60 and Linux) and two which are semi-compatible (60 and 80).

This fact mean less sales, so carriers and developers are definitely not happy with it.

Are all of you living in some alternate universe where carriers are having a hard time getting subscriptions? You're making these "if they don't do it no one will come" arguments when you're talking about companies making billions in revenue. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138701 http://osnews.com/thread?138701 I for one would ADORE a mediocre phone that had:

A) Great reception.
B) Infinite (or simply nigh-infinite) battery life
C) A simple, useful ringtone
D) Answering machine functions
E) Is good and cheap, considering it's high-hazard life.

None of these awesome features require an OS, per se.

Instead I see more and more $200 battery hogs that are plagued with dropped signals and play obnoxious hip-hop snippits through a .05 inch piezo and are marketed as high-dollar fashion accessories more than telecommunication devices. I have never, EVER caught anyone "working" on a cell phone. They mostly just talk on them and drive badly doing so.

Sheesh. FORGET an OS, I just want a PHONE!

By the by, the NOKIA 2115i that I use right now is the best phone I have ever seen. If it had better reception, I'd marry it. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (diskinetic) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138705 http://osnews.com/thread?138705 Hmmm, but it's wrong, because Linux is not solution. It is realy only the kernel. The platform that you may take, & make something with it. something that will be Your own greate project, but it will not be Linux anymore. It will be only Linux based something. The rest is not Linux, it's POSIX or not POSIX software. That may work on Linux but same on BSD or Windows even. So it's like... Saying that is so bad that Windows 95 drivers don't work on Windows XP kernels Because Windows is not kernel only but solution. It's so... Ahhhh

I really think that problem is not with Linux at all. It's just with vendors, that can't talk about solutions that may make their products more attractive by letting run more software on them. If there is so many corps like Siemens, Motorola, Nokia, Sony, LG etc. etc. Why they can't make together some framework with SDKs. Some APIs that will let them make the software easy for all smartphones? Because they do not want that & because this may show the real prize of the phone that you buy. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Nicram) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138711 http://osnews.com/thread?138711 Sorry but just because you want to group Series 30 and 40 together and 60/80/90 doesn't make it true.

It does. As for Series 30/40 it doesnt matter which OS it uses. This platform is closed (has no public API), so there is no application compatibility problem becasue there are no applications

Nokia, however, is quite clear that they are not planning on offering a single platform. Series 60 for their mid line smart phones and Series 80 for their high end smart phones

Wrong. S60 will be the future unified platform for all Nokia smartphones. Series 90 features (touchscreen support) already get subsumed into S60 and in the S60v3 Feature Pack 3 the S80-like HVGA resolution support was introduced. That means S60 communicators are also on the horizon.

Are all of you living in some alternate universe where carriers are having a hard time getting subscriptions?

Without availability of common smartphone platforms (S60, WM and PalmOS) they definitely would have a hard time getting subscriptions. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (stare) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138728 http://osnews.com/thread?138728 And Vodafone, and Orange, and France Telecom, and... Basically, all the majors would like to be able to tailor their handsets to their branding and apply the same changes to handsets from different vendors (the vendors, of course, call this commoditization and aren't happy about it).

Add-on software is very important if you want to sell into enterprise customers or support add-on services, which, again, the carriers want to form and the vendors also want to form.

And, there are lots of interesting technologies growing on Linux bases. VOIP is an example, instant messaging, browsers, SVG graphics, etc. At least some of the vendors believe that Linux will be a more fertile ground than, say, Symbian for such innovations. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (achates) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138729 http://osnews.com/thread?138729 It does. As for Series 30/40 it doesnt matter which OS it uses. This platform is closed (has no public API), so there is no application compatibility problem becasue there are no applications

Ok, I agree in that sense.

Wrong. S60 will be the future unified platform for all Nokia smartphones. Series 90 features (touchscreen support) already get subsumed into S60 and in the S60v3 Feature Pack 3 the S80-like HVGA resolution support was introduced. That means S60 communicators are also on the horizon.

I have not seen any information to verify that. Whatever the case, today they are using at least 5 OSes. Getting it down to three (S30, S60 and Linux) would be an improvement, but it's certainly not going to suddenly create cross handset compatibility. So the core of my statement still hasn't changed, the cell phone industry, en mass, has no intention of making interoperability a feature. Perhaps in Europe where GSM rules or in Japan where DoCoMo has a monopoly something will happen, but here in the U.S., feel good when you can make a 20 minute call without it dropping.

Without availability of common smartphone platforms (S60, WM and PalmOS) they definitely would have a hard time getting subscriptions.

I'm sorry, that makes no sense. Operators have millions of subscriptions already. There is no indication that people aren't signing up now, nor is there an indication that cross handset compatibility is a compelling feature to subscribers. If you're in the cell phone industry you know as well as I do that corporate users are the minority. Operators want to make sure that the corporate user's teenage daughter is happy and can text her friends. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rhavyn) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138734 http://osnews.com/thread?138734 Nice selective quoting. Especially the part where you left out the explanation of why Palm is "dumping" PalmOS in favor of WinMob.

Care to explain the Treo 700P if Palm is "dumping" PalmOS ?

Palm is hedging its bets because PalmSource is failing in its attempts to update PalmOS, as I've already pointed out. But whether it uses WinMob or PalmOS, the reality is still that its market penetration is because of corporate customers that want more than just the "blackberry experience" and do want to be able to install industry-specific aps on smartphones. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138738 http://osnews.com/thread?138738 The only operators who are excerting that kind of pressure are Sprint/Nextel and Verizon. and T-Mobile, and ChinaMobile, and DoCoMo, and Orange,

eh, I can't think of a single carrier that's not.

There has been no evidence offered by anyone on this thread that there is broad customer demand for aftermarket software on their phone.

The market in ringtones and add on games is on the order of 5 billion dollars in the US; of which 20% is add on games. That's only one of the three markets for add on software.

There may be marketing data to the contrary, but I would guess it's historical, rather than predictive.

3G network support is not an innovation the Linux kernel developers care about. unless those developers happen to work for Motorola, Nokia, PalmSource, MontaVista, or half a dozen other players who are trying to make Linux viable in the cell business. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138739 http://osnews.com/thread?138739 The best you might be able to hope for is that your apps will run across a single handset makers phones.

There are already examples of Java aps running on multiple handset maker's phones on multiple networks.

I don't know what your definition of "anytime soon" is, but the industry is inexorably moving towards standarization for feature phones and smartphones. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Cloudy) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138880 http://osnews.com/thread?138880 Linux is not driven by hype? I beg to differ. The hype surrounding linux is huge, one example "200x is the year of the linux desktop!" Now I am not saying that hype is bad, every idea needs advocates and advocacy to suceed, and a lot of the hype around GNU/Linux is well deserved, but there is a lot of hype about it, and has been since the late 90s. It's the posterchild for the OSS/FS movement, the only OSS/FS app that is hyped more is firefox


"GNU/Linux thrive on progress and evolution , GNU/Linux is like the Mark Cuban , Michael Jordan and Albert Einstein of this world "

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Mark Cuban , Michael Jordan and Albert Einstein are the "Mark Cuban , Michael Jordan and Albert Einstein of this world" I also believe that Einstein and Micheal Jordan got to be forfront in thier fields due to perservance, hardwork and exceptional talent, I know that the Special Theory of Relativity, His paper on Brownian Motion, and General Relativity did not come about because "listening to others needs and whants", and neither did Micheal Jordans success, it came from working his ass off and having loads of talent.

I'm a big fan of OSS and tend to use OSS apps even when running XP, I love FreeBSD and Ubuntu, but the world is not as black and white as you describe it Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138894 http://osnews.com/thread?138894 I work for a corporation in Canada, and all of our techs, all of our execs, managers and supervisors have cell phones of some type. I think your numbers may be a bit off, as in my last 3 jobs it was the same way, and they were all in different industries (cement manufacturing, post-secondary education and a cable company). Your statements totally go perpendicular to my personal 10 year experience. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?138987 http://osnews.com/thread?138987 Regarding S60 2nd and 3rd Edition incompatibility this was a consious decision to break compatibility, just in order to fix the broken security model of Symbian 7.1. If Nokia could, they wouldn't break it.

The only thing "broken" with Symbian 7 security that Symbian 9 "fixes" is the ability of operators to lock down whose native applications get access to what OS capabilities/APIs.

Based on the track record of telcos in innovative software provision, I'm willing to bet real money that this is the beginning of Symbian's end.

Some parallels with Unix vendors' antics in the late 80s/early 90s, while Microsoft was working on/pushing/debugging Windows on the desktop, cannot be escaped.

BTW for real open Linux phones, look for something like this:

http://telefono.revejo.org/

delivered on a cheap Chinese-built hardware platform. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dimitris) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?139076 http://osnews.com/thread?139076 and the OS is open source based on Debian linux and uses GTK toolkit. It is pretty easy to port standard linux apps, like xterm, to it. It also can interoperate with blue tooth phones for internet connectivity (when WIFI is not available) and other blue-tooth devices, such as a keyboard and headset. Pretty good darn good compatibility. Sat, 01 Jul 2006 00:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ahalsey) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?139468 http://osnews.com/thread?139468 it's a brilliant platform because nokia totally ingnored GSM, PCS, and all the cellular stuff. Instead, they provided only wifi and bluetooth.. and it's open source.

the value of cell phones is that they provide connectivity for useful devices (laptops, treos, nokia 770's, etc) in areas without open internet access. Sun, 02 Jul 2006 04:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mieses) Comments