Submitted by Ars does its usual
thorough stuff on the new Mac Pro. According to Ars: “The interior layout is a big win for Apple. Four drive bays is adequate for a pro tower, and the fact that each drive is on its own bus is a smart design decision. It’s also great having room for a second optical drive. In terms of performance, it’s good news – with a caveat. While the fully-buffered memory, the screaming-fast Xeon 5150s, and the 1333MHz FSB are all great, Apple’s video card choice is most definitely not. It doesn’t fit, and it detracts from the overall experience. Despite that, the Mac Pro is a very solid graphics or video editing workstation. When all the major ‘pro’ applications have made the transition to Universal Binaries, the PowerPC years will be little more than a memory.”
This is a sweet system. BTO the x1900XT, second superdrive, wireless, and buy 4X1 GB sticks from 3rd party vendor.
This system just rocks, the layout inside the machine is simply awesome. A great piece of engineering, also a great value machine, very cheap for what you get in its standart config.
> also a great value machine, very cheap for what you get
> in its standart config.
You confuse the terms “cheap” and “value for money”. The Mac may be a good value for money, but since its priced higher than 95% of all the other PC offerings, it’s certainly not “cheap”.
“Cheap” usually means the lowest priced machines, something you can get for little money, and _not_ the supposedly best value for money, and certainly not the highest priced one.
You confuse the terms “cheap” and “value for money”. The Mac may be a good value for money, but since its priced higher than 95% of all the other PC offerings, it’s certainly not “cheap”.
“Cheap” usually means the lowest priced machines, something you can get for little money, and _not_ the supposedly best value for money, and certainly not the highest priced one.
You apparently have missed out on the endless price comparisons for the new Mac Pro. First of all, it is NOT priced higher than “95% of all other PC offerings” — see comparison with Dell for example. Also, where did you get that 95% staistic? Have anything to back it up? Like, I dunno, a link to a research paper or a statistical breakdown, or an explanation of your math? We’re waiting.
You apparently missed drynwhyl‘s point.
It’s “good value” and “cheaper” compared to Dell (and others)’s current pricing in the same segment ($2000-$3000), but none of them is “cheap“.
For anyone needs (or wants) that kind of performance, Mac Pro is a compelling choice today.
However for the majority of PC customers, a $800 system will serve them just fine, that’s why we say Mac Pro is not cheap.
You apparently can’t seem to understand English. When he said 95%, he wasn’t talking about SIMILAR PC offerings, he was talking about ALL PC offerings, including Dell’s selling for $399.
Cheap = $399 piece of junk Dell
Good Value for Money = $2500 Apple that is less expensive than similar offerings from other manufacturers.
He was saying that Apple’s AREN’T cheap, but they ARE a good value for your money. I understood what he meant, but of course I have a basic grasp of the English language.
Understand yet? I’ll give you a minute to figure it out. Use a dictionary if need be.
I disagree, it is probably cheap and potentially terrible value for money. Let me explain:
When you judge if something is cheap, you look at the price of similar items. (or the same item if the price has been cut or if you are comparing stores)
So whatever it is cheap or not depends entirely on what you compare it to. Now you say that it is more expensive than 95% of PC offerings, but isn’t it also more powerful than 95% of the PC offerings? Perhaps that is a hint that it is not a very good comparison?
If you look at the prices for 4 way workstations it might very well be cheap. I haven’t done any comparisons myself, but if Apples comparison to a similarly spec’ed Dell is accurate, then it sure looks cheap.
Judging whatever something is good value for money is more tricky as determining the value of an object is highly subjective. It is not like value == the cost of all the parts it is made from.
But lets assume that the Mac Pro really is cheap and you buy one. If all you do is read email and surf thet web, is it good value for money? I would say no. You could buy a much lower spec machine and not feel a difference, which makes it terrible value for money. If you actually need/can use the power it offers, then it can be great value for money.
So something can be cheap, even if it cost a lot of money, and something can be terrible value for money even if it is cheap.
I’m going to miss the PowerPC days. From a geek standpoint, the PowerPC is part of what made Macs magical in a way. Now, they are “just another x86 box that runs an alternative OS”.
Yeah, I know from a business standpoint it was probably a good move for Apple. But it is still sad to see what was really a superior processor design go away, and the “boring old x86” take its place.
Apple’s x86 transition is complete. And with it, an important part of computing will now fade into history. I’m sad to see it go.
Edited 2006-08-11 09:49
I must agree to some extend… I feel that there’d ought to be a greater potential in the PPC family than the G5 has ended up showing for itself, however, I also think that x86 has come a long way since the days when Apple’s ‘Pentium toaster’ ads touted the G3 as being much much faster than Intel’s offerings at the time…
Today the only legacy thing about x86 is the name of the instruction set and the basic instructions themselves… Otherwise they’re more RISC than CISC, showing that RISC really WAS the way to go… And AMD would never have caught up to Intel had they not followed this same combination of internal CISC to RISC conversion.
It is only risc if it has a lot more general purpose registers than a x86 it must have 3 register operand instuctions and load and store instuctions must be separate from the rest that is what i remember anyway. I still think risk is the smart way but i am not a expert just a avarage geek. I like that apple was as stuborn as me in sticking with risc against all that x86 … it feels like they have given up the good fight somehow.
Probably because they didn’t want to stick with the G4 in their small computers and laptops, seeing as the G4’s were pathetically slow for their time towards the end of their use in Apple’s products. (167 MHz BUS was MAX for instance) They also wouldn’t have wanted to stick the G5 in those same systems, because customers wouldn’t like their laptops melting into a puddle of steaming hot liquid on their carpet. They really had no choice, and I’m glad they finally axed PPC. It was long overdue.
> x86 [cut] they’re more RISC than CISC,
Considering that RISC is a characteristic of the *Instruction Set* and that the x86 has not changed that much, I disagree..
Intel has truly shown that given sufficient man-year even a but ugly CPU ISA can fly, but this doesn’t change the fact that the ISA is still a pig.
Considering that RISC is a characteristic of the *Instruction Set* and that the x86 has not changed that much, I disagree..
Intel has truly shown that given sufficient man-year even a but ugly CPU ISA can fly, but this doesn’t change the fact that the ISA is still a pig.
x86 is not the native ISA for x86-compatible CPUs and hasn’t been for years. It is an abstraction to an underlying load/store architecture.
Totally agree.
I miss the Alpha the most.
The “new” “core” technology is good. It’s solid and seems to work quite well offering excellent all around performance.
I think what makes Macs “magical” in the hardware sense is the wonderful layout and design, great engineering on the part of the hardware engineers, that make the hardware.
You open up that door and it us just amazing. Even my old “quicksilver” box was amazing in its time. The CPU is just a big old mass of circuitry smashed into a tiny size that receives messages and data and then tells the rest of the computer components what to do with it.
I felt the same way about DEC and IBM mainframes… they were magnificently engineered (albeit often massive) products. It’s amazing how much time is actually spent on the hardware layout/packaging before the “computer” is built. A lot of people forget about that aspect and focus on the CPU, graphics card and the operating system of a computer. Not many hardware companies take the time and make an effort to design “good” computers.
Yes – true – I agree .
BUT now it is a PC just like any other albeit from the fact it doesnt run the standard Microsoft-OS.
It has lost the unique hardware image for me.
Good review but if these are the specs then they seem to not want to create big workstations.
I was expecting BIG graphics (max SLI) – room for six hard disks or more – wireless not as an option & modem neither as an option.
For me these new Macs are pretty PCs with a cool looking OS.
More native speed Windows / OSX benchmarks would be very interesting because except for the pretty case & the display the hardware is a PC workstation .
The cinebench benchmark shows XP & OSX about SAME performance except for OSX being better at GL stuff.
Looking at software performance the only advantage the Mac has as far as I can see is the OS – & eventually sometime in a far away future Vista will come along with similiar fancy GL capabilities.
Where will the peformance advantage then be ?
Looking at the MacPro web page Apple seems to want to convince that it is THE hardware for scientific-tons-of-data work – havent seen that before
The performance difference is not great at all IMO between G5 & MacPro considering that the Pro has to “extra” CPU’s (cores) (which are already running at a quite high frequency) .
Looking at the Nvidia site – Apple is not offering the biggest Quadro card & they have a fancy graphics box on offer which would have fited nicely with the MacPro.
Very nicely designed system but I was expecting the biggest possible configuration to scream “monster workstation” – doesnt IMO .
Bit off-topic but I think Apple could make tons of money by really pushing their little Macs.- Id buy it if I had the money – considering I could then run OSX ,Windows and Linux all on the same good looking hardware
Post Scribbles : A lot of posts just on the case design
Edited 2006-08-11 18:44
The memory allowance, the total HD capacity allowance, the ECC memory, the ability to configure in a workstation GFX card all make ti a workstation level computer. Apple is also taking a new approach as well.. unless you like the base model, everything is BTO.
Clean, KISS, and missing all the hideous wires/cables.
Well that’s a relief! I’m always concerned before I buy hardware about what the interior looks like.. it’s one of my top priorities!
You rarely have to worry about that with Apple computers.
I have to honestly say, after working with horrible cases from HP and (shudder) Compaq, as well as a few haphazard pc’s that I’ve built myself from whatever I could scavenge, I kind of like the idea of a well designed and thought out interior. Then again, my pc’s innards are and have been a mess, the case is cheap, etc etc – It would be nice to have a decent and intelligently designed case for once that’s clean, elegant, and doesn’t get in your way.
Now I just need, I dunno, another job and I might be able to afford one of these babies in, oh, a year (drools)
Now I just need, I dunno, another job and I might be able to afford one of these babies in, oh, a year (drools)
If you are living independently and can’t come up with $3000 on demand, the latest and greatest in computing should be low on the priority list.
Putting 3-6 months wages aside in the “oh shit!” fund and paying down all bills should be. Take your credit cards, drop them in milk and put them in the freezer and put yourself on a cash-only spening plan. Does amazing things to help you get your financial house in order, that does — forces you to live within your means.
(After you get 3-6 months wages saved up, you then take the money you were putting there and fund your retirement account [if you weren’t already], and then you start a “toyz for me” fund — which will fill up faster than you think now that the rest of the financial house is in order.)
And finally, you totally want to wait until next year to buy that MacPro, even if you had the cash right now — by then it will be the next gen and all the kinks will be worked out.
Haha, thanks for the advice.
First, I have zero credit cards – I understand the danger, and avoid them like the plague. If you don’t have the cash, you can’t afford it.
Second, the bills are paid down – for a 19 year old full time college student with zero assistance from anybody, a lease, and a brand new job this is no small feat…my only debt is those damned Stafford government loans which I had no choice but to accept.
Third, I have an (admittedly small) retirement account that I have 10% of my income automatically paying into (benefits of working in financial institutions for three years).
I stated I’d need to get a second job because I’d rather not destroy my budget (which barely works), empty my savings (which I know I should keep for an emergency…small as it is right now). If I worked another job, even a small part-time one, I’d have more disposable income – simple as that.
I don’t see much irresponsibility in my plan. Thanks for the sound advice though
– it’s something everyone needs to hear once in a while.
I suppose you know jack about Heat Transfer. To fellow Mech. Engineers having air flow unabated is optimal.
This reminds me with the horrible HP desktops selling for over a thousand, and when you want to add memory you have to take out the power supply first which was blocking the CPU and the memory. At that time G4 towers were opening like a luxurious car door and expose everything inside for the technician if not the user.
Apple does hire genius design engineers, while MS and other OEMs are not serious about it at all!
Is the interior what all PCs should be? Not so sure. The Antec 180 is probably really what all PC cases should be.
First, the skin should not be thick polished aluminum, but some kind of sandwich material to lower resonance. And weight. We are designing a case here, not an industrial sculpture.
Second, the interior should be laid out with only one priority: quiet airflow. Particular attention needs to be paid to airflow over the hard drives. This one, by comparison to the Antec, looks like has severe compromises in the interest of aesthetics. Look at the Antec layout with two big fans in it.
Whether there are visible cables is immaterial. Whether the interior plating is polished is immaterial. Everyone is using the same components, hard drives, memory, processors, opticals, graphics cards. The issue is keeping them cool and keeping the thing quiet, and how it looks aesthetically doesn’t have much bearing on the engineering.
At any rate, if I were building one, and I had the choice between this and the Antec case, it would be no contest.
Whether there are visible cables is immaterial. Whether the interior plating is polished is immaterial. Everyone is using the same components, hard drives, memory, processors, opticals, graphics cards. The issue is keeping them cool and keeping the thing quiet, and how it looks aesthetically doesn’t have much bearing on the engineering.
People who buy Macs expect a certain amount of extra polish. Good cable management and a polished interior are good but of course a separate issue from quietness and adequate cooling.
>Whether there are visible cables is immaterial.
I disagree about this point: making cables ‘invisible’ has advantages:
– simplicity in maintainability since the cable doesn’t get in the way of the access to a component.
– better airflow, granted this point is less a problem with SATA cables.
The next time I buy a a power-supply, it will have a ‘pluggable cable’ design: the rat nest of power cables that I have in my current PC are really annoying when I want to change a component.
I always look forward to Ars Technica’s reviews when an interesting new computer or operating system has been released. This detailed review definitely didn’t disappoint.
It was nice to see that the reviewer found it to be a quiet computer, but personally I’d like to see some noise measurements rather than just subjective opinion. One person’s “quiet computer” might well be very annoying to someone else.
Personally I can’t stand loud computers, especially when using the computer for AV work. Noise is the main reason why I didn’t consider the G4/G5 towers. I’ll definitely consider a Mac Pro if it isn’t significantly noisier than my PC.
To me, the G5 was whisper quiet… you are not one of those people who saw the number of fans and fallaciously thought “must be noisy” are you?
To me, the G5 was whisper quiet… you are not one of those people who saw the number of fans and fallaciously thought “must be noisy” are you?
Of course noise is subjective, and in an environment with high ambient noise, such as a busy office with air conditioning, I can see how a G5 would blend into the background. But I’m generally using my computer in a quiet environment, where noise from the computer stands out a lot more.
I’ve used two different G5 Macs, an early lower spec model and a recent dual CPU system. Both of them were much louder than my PC, and as I’m used to using a quiet computer, I found the noise they produced very irritating. Even compared with more recent Dell PCs I wouldn’t consider the G5 to be particularly quiet.
On the other hand the Intel iMac and Mac Mini are both nice and quiet, unfortunately they don’t meet my needs for other reasons. Apple have the ability to make very quiet computers so I’ll be interested to hear the Mac Pro for myself.
Yes, but when the fans and liquid cooling take up such a large space that you are stuck with one optical drive (my 5 year old PC had 2), it isn’t exactly a good use of space.
I agree that the video card in the Mac Pro suck in regards of gaming… You need to upgrade it!
Aye, I couldn’t believe Apple offers the Radeon X1900, but not the GeForce 7800. It seems to be so that they can hit that sweet spot pricepoint wise. However, that’s a poor excuse for not at least offering the 7800 as an option for the build-to-order page. There’s no reason why they can’t offer it there — no good reason anyway.
You could just buy one and put it in the machine.
You could just buy one and put it in the machine.
And end up paying for two video cards? That’s rather silly. I shouldn’t have to pay for the 7300, and then turn around and buy a 7800. That means I would end up paying more for the 7800 effectively then had a build-to-order option been available for it.
Isnt a 1900 xt faster than a 7800 anyway?
am I blind or did apple forget to cool the HDDs?
From the look of it the hard drives make contact with the metal of the case, that should passively cool them well enough. I can’t see Apple making a mistake like not providing adequate drive cooling in their flagship computer.
there are also 2 fans directly below the harddrives.
maybe these fans are dual purpose; cooling the HDs and the CPUs
i checked the fotos again and they are not cooled.
there are 2 fans in the front, but they are cooling the cpus and pci-slots. the one hdd directly above the fan gets n cooling at all, and as soon as you add a full-sice card none of the drives get cooled. and contat with the metal of the case won’t keep them cool.
I can’t see Apple making a mistake like not providing adequate drive cooling in their flagship computer.
The hard disks are probably cooled adequately. But they do forget things — for example on the MacBook Pro they forgot that not including a pcmcia slot would mean that it will be impossible to use G3 wireless cards for several years. I very much wanted to switch to a MacBook but this design oversight makes it impossible for me.
(
Edited 2006-08-12 05:36
The MacBook Pro uses the new pcmcia standard, ExpressCard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExpressCard
3G ExpressCards are coming soon, but you can also use USB adapters.
I think the best way is to use your 3G phone and connect via Bluetooth.
The Antec p180 is surely an improvement over a standard PC case (which has no internal engineering at all), but its not really comparable to the Mac Pro.
Tell, me, which motherboard is this case designed for? Now its clear why the engineering of the Mac Pro’s internals is superior: the whole thing is engineered together, so there are no variables. The p180 has to accommodate for any ATX variation.
Look at the inside of the p180, and draw a line for the direction of the air flow. See how that line is not straight? Now look at the inside of the Mac pro. Straight from front to back. That is how cooling should be done
sandwiching plastic between the aluminum actually turns it into insulation. Either way, the p180 has up to 5 large case fans(not including cpu/psu fans), one at the top of the case. There’s no evidence either way, but i bet acoustically the Mac Pro is at least as quiet(1 case fan, 1 cpu fan, 1 psu fan).
where are the usb and firewire ports on the back? Don’t tell me you have to add an expansion card. ethernet ports? another expansion card? Sounds ugly
You have to open a door to get to another door to insert and remove disks?
Don’t forget the Mac Pro’s ease of configuration. No wires to get in your way, HD’s, and ram are all much easier to get to.
The p180’s one real advantage, as with all generic cases, is that if you want to buy a new motherboard/CPU and swap them, you can. With a Mac, the CPU/motherboard is essentially married to the case.
Don’t own one. The one I bought (for someone else on a budget) was a BQE black. Also a very nice case. Not justifying any purchase. Just think its a properly engineered piece of equipment.
As to the board being fitted to the case or vice versa in the case of Macs. This is really crazy. Grabbing at straws on this one.
Tell, me, which motherboard is this case designed for? Now its clear why the engineering of the Mac Pro’s internals is superior: the whole thing is engineered together, so there are no variables. The p180 has to accommodate for any ATX variation.
It’s true that Apple has an advantage here, the Mac Pro’s internals are beautifully laid out and easily accessible, that’s the benefit of being able to design all the hardware yourself.
On the other hand, the difference between most ATX motherboards isn’t that great, most position the CPU in roughly the same place and a lot of tower CPU coolers (similar to those used in the Mac Pro) allow the fan to blow in the direction of your choice. If you’re building the PC yourself, or having one custom built, you can easily chose a motherboard and cooler that fits the case efficiently.
Look at the inside of the p180, and draw a line for the direction of the air flow. See how that line is not straight? Now look at the inside of the Mac pro. Straight from front to back. That is how cooling should be done
I agree that complex airflow pathways are usually inferior to a straight line, although in some circumstances ducting and mufflers can be effective. However, this is something that the P180 deals with very well.
The PSU and up to 4 hard drives are in a separate compartment in the bottom of the case, with a straight line of airflow from front to back. The airflow in the top compartment is also relatively unrestricted. With 95%+ of ATX motherboards the fan on a tower cooler such as a Scythe Ninja or Thermalright Ultra-120 will be blowing directly towards one of the fan openings.
sandwiching plastic between the aluminum actually turns it into insulation.
Unless components are directly connected to the case, forced convection is responsible for almost all cooling, and the material the case is made out of has virtually no effect on temperatures. The thick aluminium/plastic/aluminium panels on the P180 definitely help to reduce noise from internal components. That more than makes up for any tiny increase in temperatures that they cause.
Either way, the p180 has up to 5 large case fans(not including cpu/psu fans), one at the top of the case. There’s no evidence either way, but i bet acoustically the Mac Pro is at least as quiet(1 case fan, 1 cpu fan, 1 psu fan).
You can’t judge how much noise a system will make based on the number of fans, a single high speed fan can easily make more noise than a dozen quiet fans. At the moment we don’t know how fast/noisy the Mac Pro’s fans are, and how much their speed will increase under load.
The amount of noise that the P180 makes is almost entirely dependant on how it is configured. You can easily control the fan speed manually, or replace them with faster/slower fans as required. You can fit 4 120mm fans inside the case (3 are included), but that wouldn’t be necessary for most systems.
For example, you only need a fan in the PSU compartment if you are using a fanless PSU, or you’ve packed 4 particularly hot hard drives (such as WD Raptors) into the compartment. Normally the PSU’s fan would be more than adequate on its own, after all it’s just cooling itself and the drives, not any other components like in a typical ATX case.
Additionally, you almost certainly don’t need an intake fan in the top compartment, which is why Antec don’t install one by default. In my experience front fans make little difference when the airflow path is simple, direct and reasonably unrestricted.
I have a total of two low speed fans in my P180 (a mid range Athlon 64 x2), which includes cooling for the PSU, CPU and graphics. That system is obviously a lot less powerful than the Mac Pro, but low noise was my main priority when building it.
That’s the key advantage of building a PC, I can choose to sacrifice some speed in exchange for lower noise if that’s my preference. If the Mac Pro is too noisy to meet my requirements there’s probably not much I can do to change it.
The P180 has other advantages as a low noise case. For example hard drives are mounted on soft rubber grommets to reduce their vibration, which reduces their noise significantly compared with hard mounted drives.
Then there’s the 3 layer door, which reduces noise from internal components when closed. To me reducing noise from my DVD drive is well worth the effort of opening and closing the door to remove disks. However, the door can be folded flat against the side of the case, so you can leave it open all the time if it annoys you.
where are the usb and firewire ports on the back? Don’t tell me you have to add an expansion card. ethernet ports? another expansion card? Sounds ugly
Most ATX motherboard have integrated USB and Ethernet ports, it’s generally only things like less commonly used audio ports that find their way onto PCI backplates. Of course the particular connectors included would depend on your choice of motherboard.
Sounds like a nice machine; however, as a geek and never-before Mac-user, I’d probably be more likely to go for a second hand PowerMac G[45].
the lack of ability to have two 16-lane slots going at the same time rules out x16 Crossfire and SLI configurations
Still it’s nice i think being able to afford a Mac Pro.
Fedora Core, for example, now has support for Intel-based Macintoshes, so it would be interesting to see how 64-bit FC ran on the Mac Pro box, but nope, no attempt at all was made to try it.
Considering that people who buy Mac Pros are probably quite averse to running Windows (otherwise why not buy a cheaper-but-same-speced Intel box that comes with Windows?), it seems bizarre that reviewers just ignore Linux as a possible option on Mac boxes. I bet a 64-bit Linux distro would probably outperform both Mac OS X and Windows XP on the Mac Pro, but I guess we’ll never know…<sigh>…
Edited 2006-08-11 19:49
I bet a 64-bit Linux distro would probably outperform both Mac OS X and Windows XP on the Mac Pro, but I guess we’ll never know…<sigh>…
Uhh… this is not the be all, end all review of a Mac Pro. It’s only been 1 week. Just wait. You’re being a little over dramatic