http://www.osnews.com/story/15812/SkyOS_Gets_USB_Support Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:35:04 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread?161646 http://osnews.com/thread?161646 I've had a beta for awhile now, and this was a feature which I missed. Especially lately, everything I own is USB. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sardonic) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161654 http://osnews.com/thread?161654 It's ridiculous that something like this is added in such a late stadium of the development. Missing USB-support was making it very unnatractive to beta-test skyos, since no-one was fully able to test skyos natively. Only vmware was an option to test it properly. However, this is everything but representative about the hardware support of skyos. With this I mean the stability of the os being used with all sorts of CPU's, motherboards, RAM, and HDD's. I hope that this will be improved with this update. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tdehoog) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161657 http://osnews.com/thread?161657 I havent downloaded any of the releases in awhile... Now that USB support is (re)added I am actually a little more interested in maybe playing with it again.. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (robojerk) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161661 http://osnews.com/thread?161661 It was odd, but it did exist way back when. It was axed early on when the beta's first started to come out i believe. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sardonic) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161663 http://osnews.com/thread?161663 the early support that used to be there was partially a port of an existing usb stack, which was one of the reasons it was buggy Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161665 http://osnews.com/thread?161665 As a SkyOS loyalist, I agree with you. USB Support has been a very, very, important feature that was missing for a long period of time. However, Robert has been working on many changes to the Kernel since the 4.X versions (Side note: SkyOS did have USB support in 4.X). And, if your a programmer I'm sure you know this but, when your changing a kernel or simply writing one to begin with, it simple doesn't make sense to start working on Driver, or even application support. That aside, I would like to congratulate Robert on this, long awaited, feature! Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (GregV) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161668 http://osnews.com/thread?161668 You must be joking. Testing SkyOS on bare metal to its fullest extent is possible if you shell out for an incredibly cheap Realtek 8139D NIC card and possibly a Live! card if you want sound with that. If you are complaining about hardware support, then please point me to your bug reports with debug logs in the SkyOS Bug Tracker.Edited 2006-09-12 17:58 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tomasz Dominikowski) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161670 http://osnews.com/thread?161670 Congratulations Robert !

Another important milestone is reached...

Now...other awesome (but very time-consuming) moves in the future would be :

1) Printer/scanner support (through a port of CUPS ?)
2) Wifi/ADSL
3) A port of java/open office...

With the initial DDK release and the rewrite of the USB stack, I hope a few drivers will be implemented by
third parties...that would be nice.

Go go go SkyOS !
Lakedaemon Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Lakedaemon) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161672 http://osnews.com/thread?161672 1) That's a little known fact, but CUPS was ported a long, long time ago. Robert decided against including it because, let me quote here, "it was too bloated". A native interface to CUPS drivers will be written. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tomasz Dominikowski) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161673 http://osnews.com/thread?161673 ... when printing, dial up, Java, an office suite, etc are all available there will be nothing more to complain about. That is with the obvious exception that it's not free or open source.

I say if that's all there is to complain about, Robert's doing a mighty fine job

Keep up the awesome work, Robert. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mattst88) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161676 http://osnews.com/thread?161676 mmhh..that's good news...

And I really like the fact that Roberts prefers to spend time and energy coding something good instead of choosing the easy path of porting/using something bloated.

That's a good investment that will pay in the long run.

edit : btw, I wasn't complaining in the previous post
just stating some milestones that would bring SkyOS even closer to the day when you can use it as your primary OS (for the average user)...In an media-center configuration, it would be much sooner that that Edited 2006-09-12 18:18 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Lakedaemon) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161677 http://osnews.com/thread?161677 Ummmm... I beg to differ. I have said network card and a live! sound card, yet of my four computers of various ages, none of them have supported chipsets. They aren't really unique either. I am paid beta tester, but I've never been able to actually run the beta despite all of my efforts. I'm getting a new(used) computer this weekend though that is listed as supported, so hopefuly all goes well. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rabadash) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161680 http://osnews.com/thread?161680 "That is with the obvious exception that it's not free or open source."

Oh shucks, SkyOS will be like Windows then. It'll still take time for people to understand that if they complain about SkyOS being non-FOSS, they look as ridiculus as the people who complain that Windows is non-FOSS. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tomasz Dominikowski) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161685 http://osnews.com/thread?161685 Yet you don't report this in the Bug Tracker? How are we to improve SkyOS if you don't report problems?

We see this every time a beta build gets released.

"Oh bloody hell this and that still isn't fixed!"

Robert: "I don't know what are you talking about, no report in the bug tracker = no problem".

I hope you get the picture. You are a beta-tester...? Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tomasz Dominikowski) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161715 http://osnews.com/thread?161715 Presumably SkyOS developers already know which chipsets it does and does not support. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (smitty) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161725 http://osnews.com/thread?161725 ... none of them have supported chipsets ...
could you specify which chipsets those are? Usually Robert is eager to fix boot problems when provided with debuglogs or even pictures of the kernel debugger if that's not possible...
Bootproblems scare people away so he knows these should be fixed.

Once bootproblems like these are fixed for a user, this user can see himself as a worthy beta tester since he helped improving skyos Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161751 http://osnews.com/thread?161751 Fantastic, an operating system with USB support! And it's even cheaper than Microsoft Windows. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Endica) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161756 http://osnews.com/thread?161756 Forgive me for my ignorance, but is Robert the only person working on this OS? If so, not sure I would want to invest my money or depend on an OS written by one person.

"SkyOS gets USB support" - wow!!!

Sorry don't mean to be negative, but are people really paying for this??? come on!!!! Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161760 http://osnews.com/thread?161760 I don't think you get my point... Due to the lack of USB-support I simply refused to test it (I even had to pay to test it!!!). Someone developping an OS and neglecting USB-support just doesn't understand the needs of the actual tester. They want to test the os properly. Is being forced to use antique ps/2 mice and keyboard a nice way to test an OS? I don't think so. Sure, I'm willing to test a new OS, and sure, I will see most bugs as a part of the development process an I'm willing to file those. However, if the main-developer (since there's only one...) waits this long for something vital as USB-support, he is making it really hard for his testers to give an objective report of their experiences. Since they can only use virtualization software to test it without having to put a lot of effort in it. Ever wondered why all the drivers for the VMWare hardware are already implemented?

Let me give you an example: I'm developping a new car. however: it only has train-wheels (ps/2), since these are easier to develop. So the testers of the car can only test it on a railroad. I know that normal car wheels (USB) are an important part of the car, but since I'm so busy implementing the in-car entertainment (openGL, QuakeIII anyone...?) these wheels can wait...

I know it sounds stupid, and I know I'm bashing a lot of SkyOS fanboys with this post. But I just want to give you my opinion on the SkyOS development roadmap: Put the effort on the right things. Things that make an OS an OS, and not just a nice development project from which the developper can learn a lot. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tdehoog) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161768 http://osnews.com/thread?161768 Tomasz, I would just point out that older PCI SB cards, based on the ensoniq 1371 chipset, are much more appropriate for SkyOS. Live! cards stutter massively and can only be used the first time a user logs, not after the user logs out and logs back in. At least that's been my experience on two different machines. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (adamk) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161778 http://osnews.com/thread?161778 Sorry don't mean to be negative, but are people really paying for this??? come on!!!!
There is a lot of crappy software out there where you have to pay more than 30$ to get a full version.
30$ is really no big deal, spend a good night out in a club and you could loose even more.

You are obviously not someone who would even be willing to donate to some project just because you like it or you want to support the developper(s).

and yes, he is the only one doing core developper. The payed beta program is one reason for him not to loose interest in it.

@tdehoog: how much costs a usb to ps2 converter, 1$? wow, that's a big effort to make...
It's perfectly possible to test SkyOS without usb support.
The vmware hardware is supported to give the people that do have problems with hardware the possibility to test everything in skyos.Edited 2006-09-12 21:25 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161785 http://osnews.com/thread?161785 "You are obviously not someone who would even be willing to donate to some project just because you like it or you want to support the developper(s).

and yes, he is the only one doing core developper. The payed beta program is one reason for him not to loose interest in it.

@tdehoog: how much costs a usb to ps2 converter, 1$? wow, that's a big effort to make... "

I have denoted to many opensource projects

So please tell me why you would expect me to pay to test an Operating System without USB support and why I should pay for a PS2 converter?

God help us if he "loses" interest in it For me it seems a big risk to invest time and effort in an OS developed by one person who will not share the source code.Edited 2006-09-12 21:47 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161787 http://osnews.com/thread?161787 Have you tried re-enabling the ISS service? I think that fixed it for me before. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kelly Rush) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161788 http://osnews.com/thread?161788 Media center. Indeed. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kelly Rush) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161791 http://osnews.com/thread?161791 So now it supports USB. Why are you still complaining?

And he hasn't lost interest in the 10 years he's been working on it. I'd say he has a pretty good track record. There are a few people that work with Robert to support him in various ways (myself included), even if he is the only full-time developer. We also have a wonderful user community that keeps us (and especially Robert) motivated to keep going. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kelly Rush) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161793 http://osnews.com/thread?161793 I am not, just can't believe that people have paid to test this OS that doesn't support USB, and is not opensource.

Putting that aside, surely it is best to let as many people test the OS as possible... much wider exposure. Why not let people download the betas for free to try it out and report bugs?

If Robert is so motivated and interested in his OS then why not open it to wider audience for testing? Hell, why not make it opensource and get more developers interested in it.Edited 2006-09-12 22:11 Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161795 http://osnews.com/thread?161795 One word: control

By limiting the beta, you get a smaller group and hence one that is more focused. Can you imagine Robert having to deal with bug thousands of bug reports?

And by paying you have a more vested interest in the outcome. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zizban) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161800 http://osnews.com/thread?161800 In that case why not just make it opensource? That way, more developers and more exposure. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161808 http://osnews.com/thread?161808 it does support USB now, no need to brag about the lack of it any more.

And did you ever realize that you can develop for skyos and improve it without access to the source? With a decent API you can do a lot.

Robert has his reasons for not open sourcing the kernel, it's the authors choice and working fine so far. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161811 http://osnews.com/thread?161811 I know it supports USB now, hence the article ...

What are Robert's reasons for not opening the kernel source? Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161812 http://osnews.com/thread?161812 Well it seems quiet on here now. I think it is safe to get bed Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Isolationist) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161815 http://osnews.com/thread?161815 I don't think it is about the money or the amount. It may be instead the difference between donating towards something that is being openly shared (as in open source), and having to pay in order to get access to something that is proprietary (as in closed source).

The latter will always create higher expectations than the former, which is why I think SkyOS may be put under tougher scrutiny compared to other alternative OS projects (which are open source).

Sometimes the responses from the people close to SkyOS let transpire a sense that people are forking out $30 to support the project (as it if were a donation to the SkyOS cause), when those who opened their wallets may think different and feel entitled to a better response other than "have you posted a bug?" reply. Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161820 http://osnews.com/thread?161820 Sometimes the responses from the people close to SkyOS let transpire a sense that people are forking out $30 to support the project (as it if were a donation to the SkyOS cause), when those who opened their wallets may think different and feel entitled to a better response other than "have you posted a bug?" reply.

I, personally, can agree with that... I have nearly about forty open bugs in Mantis for SkyOS. And while I don't doubt that Robert regularly works on them, and many of them are probably no longer valid, it's still frustrating to see some long standing bugs that directly impact the usability of the OS be put on hold while Robert works on something like quake3arena, which I have no use for...

But, alas, I knew the risks when I went ahead and forked out the $30... And, frankly, so did everyone else who forked out the $30 :-) Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (adamk) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161849 http://osnews.com/thread?161849 > I knew the risks when I went ahead and forked out the $30...

Sure. But I would not assume that everyone is aware of those risks, and that's probably a fact that SkyOS will have to live with. :-) Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161859 http://osnews.com/thread?161859 Robert has SkyOS closed source for the very same reason other developers decide to have their projects opensource. It is simply his choice. Since open source is all about freedom, Robert should also have the free-choice not market his code under an open source license.

Now, with that said, at one point SkyOS *was* open source. During this time outside developers helped out writing the kernel, making drivers and so forth. Robert found it simply didn't work for him. I don't know the *exact* reason why, but I believe some of the "core" group left the project and others simply didn't work to well with the project, and it just became a hassle to have SkyOS open source(at least, thats what I remember, but I might be wrong, don't quote me on that). Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (GregV) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161861 http://osnews.com/thread?161861 On that last point, I'd like to point out that no body on SkyOS "management" (except maybe Kelly) to my knowledge has been formally trained in any type of Public Relations/Customer Service type roles. People simply get positions based on their abilities in other fields, for example, Matt. He is great with coding, therefore, he gets an Administrative position in the software development area and it tends to carry over... Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (GregV) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161872 http://osnews.com/thread?161872 Nobody is questioning Robert for his choice. If he wants to keep it closed, so be it. He wants to charge for the beta program? That's ok too. It is his work after all.

But those decisions carry certain consequences in how people may perceive the project, whether he likes it or not.

There is certain leniency towards open source projects; people can be forgiving (and even generous) because they recognize that the work is being done by volunteers on their time; there is also the premise that the code is open for anyone to see and use (maybe under certain conditions, depending on the license).

You cannot expect the same forgiveness (and generosity) towards closed projects for which money has to be paid to beta test. That is, IMHO, a direct consequence of Robert's decision to close source SkyOS and charge money to give access to their beta program.

So, it is his decision, yes. But the consequences may be out of his control. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161875 http://osnews.com/thread?161875 "You cannot expect the same forgiveness (and generosity) towards closed projects for which money has to be paid to beta test."

Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS. The beta testers are generally the most understanding and patient of all the people that follow SkyOS's continued development. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 04:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kelly Rush) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161877 http://osnews.com/thread?161877 > Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that
> do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS.
> The beta testers are generally the most understanding
> and patient of all the people that follow SkyOS's
> continued development.

Does not seem to be the case in this particular case, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. :-) Wed, 13 Sep 2006 04:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161886 http://osnews.com/thread?161886 [i}But those decisions carry certain consequences in how people may perceive the project, whether he likes it or not. [/i]
This has been touched lightly in the previous posts but it is not SkyOS' intention to reach as many people as possible at this moment.

This way the beta team is limited in size in order to get better quality bug reports. This is also one of the reasons that other projects or OS use payed beta systems.

Oh and in case you didn't notice, paying for the beta will also get you the final product so for those interested in the project, this is a nice way to try it while they wait. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 06:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161918 http://osnews.com/thread?161918 What's the reasoning behind the thought that money will result in quality bug reports? Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161928 http://osnews.com/thread?161928 It being a proprietary OS can i apply for funding to obtain all the compatible hardware i'll need before i start beta testing the product for them? Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (anonymousbrowser) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161930 http://osnews.com/thread?161930 What's the reasoning behind the thought that money will result in quality bug reports?
The way I see it (Roberts view might differ a bit but he said something along those lines):

* payed beta -> less beta tester
* too many beta testers (most of them only doing a quick glance over it) -> lots of duplicate bugreports or bugreports with insufficient info making it harder to distinguish the usefull reports from the others.
* less beta testers, more interactivity possible.
-> example: you file a bugreport about a networkproblem and attach a debuglog and you visit the irc channel. Suddenly robert enters the channel and tries to work out this issue or gives hints to try and get a more usefull debuglog so he can fix it faster.
Your bug could be fixed within hours or days.

If that was a bugreport like "this is not working for me" without extra info, robert will not do much effort if he can't reproduce it and continue with bugs he can reproduce. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161961 http://osnews.com/thread?161961 Robert: "I don't know what are you talking about, no report in the bug tracker = no problem".

Besides all pros and cons, I do not think that the basic attitude speaking from Roberts words is what you need to develop a progressive OS. This attitude is merely one that huge companies have.

Or seen the other way round: I am sure SkyOS could make more progress if the attitude was to do good software instead of waiting for problems to be reported. And please do not come with "It is just one person doing this job". Especially in this case quality (or efficiency) is more important than quantity (a huge number of ported programs in this case). Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (serenity) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?161980 http://osnews.com/thread?161980 > * payed beta -> less beta tester
* less beta testers, more interactivity possible.

Keeping the number of beta testers to a manageable level is wise, but that alone will not guarantee better bug reporting, nor will charging $$$ for the beta program make it better. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?162030 http://osnews.com/thread?162030 how do you know that for sure?

remember skyos used to be open source and free, so I'm sure Robert can tell you the difference between the 2 systems and the effect on the bugreports.

If you really want an answer from robert himself, I invite you to visit the irc channel now and then. He won't bite Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?162055 http://osnews.com/thread?162055 > how do you know that for sure?

The fact that you are having low quality bug reports? :-) Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sogabe) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?162090 http://osnews.com/thread?162090 Unbelievable!

Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS. --Kelly Rush

So in other words we're not supposed to discuss the OS unless we've 'donated' money by buying into the beta?

--bornagainpenguin Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bornagainenguin) Comments http://osnews.com/thread?162146 http://osnews.com/thread?162146 You should work on your reading comprehension. Not only was that not what Kelly said, he in no way even implied that. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (adamk) Comments