OSNews:

OT: Jobs and turtle neck AGAIN!

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:24:00 GMT

that turtle neck is probably soldered onto his neck.

Chicago's Store had HUGE LINES as well...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:30:00 GMT

It is now 3:23am and I just got back from the Chicago store (Shaumberg, IL really) and I've got say that the line was HUGE! I'm a bad estimate of guessing how many but there HAD to be at least a thousand people in line. I waited 3.5 hours in line and left while plenty more were in line. Yeah, got the Hanes Beefy OS X T-shirt and sticker, but the mouse pads had their supplies exhausted before I had a chance to get there. Even though I was stuck in a line for hours, it was very exciting. Well, off the get some Zzzzz now, need to wake up early for my clean install...

To Eugenia: I wanted to make comment on the pop-up ads. I work for a company that also uses pop-up ads, so I'm not going to complain that you've decided to generate some income based on ads, but I wondered if you were in consideration of a subscription based model where a user could pay, I dunno, $10-$20 a year for ad-free (no banners, no pop-ups) access to osnews.com. Perhaps you could poll your audience and see if it is worth implementing. I know I'd become a subscriber. Sorry this was OT, feel free to truncate/mod my message... =)

-Spider

Re: spider

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:37:00 GMT

The popup ad will only show ONCE per browser (it is ad ad campaign that finishes tomorrow AFAIK). It uses a cookie to see if it has been displayed. If it had displayed once on that browser, it won't be loading again.

Still waiting..

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:41:00 GMT

I order mine from Amazon...Guess I have to wait. And we have such a nice Apple Store here in San Diego too...

Oh well.

urgh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:45:00 GMT

Corrupted flash...

What could be worse?

Besides, I understand people wanting to get this release so they could use Mac OS X in a more productive way. I truly understand. But what's with the big idea of wasting your time lining up in from of a store during a whole *Friday* night waiting to get in just to get a copy of OS X on that day - when they probably won't be able to install it as soon as they get it (unless they are on caffein...).

Just seems stupid to me, cause that happened during Windows 95's launch, and the same for windows XP launch...

You guys really need to get a life, and a date :-p

Besides, did you heard, for the very first time, they are releasing a version of OS X in Malaysia on the same time as they release in US. I thought of going.... but naaah. I'll go on Sunday (right now for me it is Saturday, BTW).

RE: urgh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:49:00 GMT

Well, I am NOT a Mac head (this is already known , and I still went there. I did not go for the "reporting". I went for two reasons:
1. To have fun and be there for the moment.
2. To see Steve Jobs (I had a feeling that he would be there, but no information on this

Result: Steve Jobs destroyed JBQ's digital camera with the "electricity" he was emmiting. (joking)

privoxy, Pics of Jobs

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:08:00 GMT

Pop-ups? What pop-ups? I guess privoxy blows them away.

From seeing your pics of Steve Jobs I now relize that I don't know what he looks like anymore.... has he lost weight?

Anyone know where to find some high quality up to date pics of Jobs?

RE: Privoxy, Pics of Jobs

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:12:00 GMT

He looked fine to me. I've seen some pics from the XServe show, and he looked as he was always looking, weight-wise (he has lost hair though :-).
BTW, he came in the Apple Store tonight very simply dressed, wearing jeans with holes. Cool. Some people behind me were gossiping about him, they knew some details of his personal life... I just overheard...

its an undiscovered physical law...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:14:00 GMT

...that only the _most_important_ picture would get corrupted. now, i dont have a digital camera, but its not common to have a picture corrupt is it? and why should it happen on the picture which you most wanted?

i think someone from CERN or Stanford should start looking for the new "Sod's Law" particle, because this is sure evidence that it exists.

Lookin' good

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:26:00 GMT

... Well, ELQ, I can't see why you dream about Steve Jobs... But he's a fool if he doesn't dream about you :-)

Actually, I guess despite the problems with the Apple brand and UI that I can see - this atmosphere that apple do's have about them is still highly attractive.

RE: Lookin' good

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:30:00 GMT

haha... You got it all wrong.

It was cool to meet and talk to the man, but speaking as a woman, I do NOT find him attractive. That is, NOT because he is ugly (he is looking just fine for a man of his age), but because of his character as a person. While I do not know him personally, I know a lot of people who do (people who do not necessarily know each other). They all say and describe the same: He is a bad person. They say. And I don't like such people.

heheh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:32:00 GMT

.... s'OK.. was British humour ( been reading your journal on Slashdot - Personally if you'd broken into Cupertino to spy on him I think he'd shoot you.. )

his age?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:37:00 GMT

Actually.. that brings something to mind... he must have incredible media-manipulation skills as I had no idea of his age.. I knew somewhere in my mind that he was involved with Wozniak back in the early days of Apple Computer nearly 20 years ago, but all the news coverage of him portrays him as dynamic, stylish, flamboyant...

..all words which convey a "young" image even if not deliberately so - Pix from Macworld of his presentations are usually taken from crowd and might as well have been taken from a satellite as far as detail goes

As a result my mental image of him was as a 30-something. I guess 50 is nearer the mark?

geek stardom

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:41:00 GMT

When will we see the first geek fanzines? With exclusive pictures of Linux and Steve Jobs, a Stallman-poster, JLG stickers and a Marco Nelissen interview?

RE: his age?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:41:00 GMT

He is 48.

D'oh!

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:43:00 GMT

Argh..misspelled Linus. Those two keys are just too close...

Stew

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:43:00 GMT

Don't go there...

.. We can't compete with Miguel "Ximian" d'Icaza..

polarizing personalitys

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:46:00 GMT

Well I can say with definitiveness that Steve Jobs, like RMS has a polarizing personality. Maybe not a bad thing but it results in less but better friends. Or no friends at all. Whats that Rush song go like? Walk on the razor's edge..

Seedy

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:52:00 GMT

Of course there will be a Miguel special issue.

Stew

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:56:00 GMT

I'll wait for the ELQ porting and cooking special... MdI may be a hunk but he just doesn't do it for me.

Jobs -vs- RMS

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:04:00 GMT

Who's more polarizing? I've got a love/hate relationship with both of 'em. Speaking of which....looks like Steve forgot to grab a razor. Trying to look like RMS? j/k.

Ehh, no Apple stores in my area, and I'm on the right coast, so no luminaries here, either. I think I'm gonna do the Jag thing anyway, this afternoon. Hmm....10% off other Apple purchases....what to get, what to get?

So....

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:08:00 GMT

Steve Jobs is a bad guy. Why am I not suprised? Check out the news stories as soon Jobs was kicked out of Apple in the late 80s....

...bad guy....

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:36:00 GMT

So gescribe a bad guy...

- a murder ?
- a bank robber ?
- a imposter ?

I think Mr. Jobs isn't any of the tings above. What is bad if he is a strong business-man who focus on his ideas? Even if he is kind of an arrogant person - the success is his success. Without him Apple had went bankrupt years ago. And I don'l believe our famous JLG with his 'wise' business desissions had hepled Apple like Jobs helpes them. Oh and by the way - to all shareholders - he is a very cheap manager.

Ralf.

...Eugenia:

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:47:00 GMT

Really annoying that the photo of you and steve went corrupt. :-(

How old are the pictures on your web site? I especially talk about the picture with that jaguar(?) fur coat.
Looks like this coat is very topic nowadays. ;-)

Ralf.

good guy, bad guy :-

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:21:00 GMT

>>I know a lot of people who do (people who do not necessarily know each other). They all say and describe the same: He is a bad person. They say. And I don't like such people.

heh...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:13:00 GMT

corrupted flash; it's a sign, it's a sign.

No queue an NO Mac OS X 10.2

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:37:00 GMT

Some news from Italy.

Today it's a shame for Apple, at least here in Milan, Italy.

The top Apple shop here got only 10/20 (ten/twenty) copies of Jaguar and then stop. No more CD we have to wait 'till September (at best!)

I was ready with my 166 Euro (160 US$) but I had to go back at home.

Sadly to say Apple! How can happen that? They are a so small firm able to prepare only a cople of tenth of a CD?

It's really a shame. I am wondering to get some copies and not to pay them at all.

Andre

RE: No queue an NO Mac OS X 10.2

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:11:00 GMT

Why didn't you just order it from the Apple Store in Italy?

http://www.apple.com/it/

I ordered mine from the Apple Store here in the Netherlands and will be here beginning of the week. I decided to go for the family license pack which costed about 260 with btw (sales tax sucks here in Europe... no pun intended)! But I wanted it now instead of waiting for someone in the US to ship it to me, and besides it would be money otherwise wasted on booze :-)

RE: No queue an NO Mac OS X 10.2

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:19:00 GMT

I know I can do that, but this is not exactly what I expect from a big company selling, this time, only a CD.

What's the problem with that? They had months to prepare and the investment to press CD is not so big. (They get a huge amount in exchange :-)

What I would like to say is that you need to be really a zealous guy to continue stay with Apple!

I've bought a G4 in october 2001 (paying twice the "real" value), had to pay more for 10.1 (G4 has only 10.0 included...), and finally add another 160 bucks to get a "required" upgrade (or stucking with my "powerful" G4 scrolling like a Pentim 133).

I love OS X, really, but I am beginning to think there's no big difference between Apple and MS, at least on the $$$$$ side.

RE: RE: No queue an NO Mac OS X 10.2

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:30:00 GMT

>>What I would like to say is that you need to be really a zealous guy to continue stay with Apple!

oops...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:33:00 GMT

>>(which is another program I program on for a living)

The beast

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:57:00 GMT

I heard Jobs has 666 tattooed on his butt. NeXT? The computers were BLACK! Look at the "X"....it's a sideways CROSS! And now Mac OSX?????

poor camera

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:03:00 GMT

I guess this give the old joke about taking not pictures of certain people cause your camera will break some bite to it. My theroy is it's the Jobs reality distortion field screwing it up. To bad for the camera, it never did anything wrong. I'm sorry you didn't get your Steve Jobs photo, but i don't think he is going anyplace and there is always 10.3 release, just take a lead sheilded camera next time.

....

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:19:00 GMT

Ralf.: I think Mr. Jobs isn't any of the tings above. What is bad if he is a strong business-man who focus on his ideas?

A successful man doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. He doesn't have to commit crimes to be a bad guy. Sure, he is a good businessman, but all Eugenia said is that she wasn't attracted to him sexually because he is a bad guy.

Yes, he pulled Apple from bankruptcy, but still doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. Who knows, maybe he is a womanizer, an alcoholic, etc. Those aren't crimes.

CattBeMac: Whereas I have heard Bill Gates is a really nice guy, but is pure satan when it comes to Microsoft's business!

Contrary to popular belief, most business decisions weren't influenced by Bill Gates. But anyway, from the people that interviews that guy when he came to Malaysia was that he wasn't an arrogant and rude man. Unlike many other people much poorer than him. He is also a quite strong Christian...

CattBeMac: I decided to go for the family license pack which costed about 260...

How much Macs do you have????

Corey: I heard Jobs has 666 tattooed on his butt. NeXT? The computers were BLACK! Look at the "X"....it's a sideways CROSS! And now Mac OSX?????

If he was the anti-Christ, he is really doing a bad job of converting the non-Christian world :-P.

Besides, did you saw the tattoo? (And BTW, most PCs from tier-one OEMs are black... Oh no!)

J'hallucine !

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:20:00 GMT

I can't believe the news today
I can't close my eyes and make it go away
How long, how long must we sing this song?
How long?

... YOU HAVE TO PAY 166 euros for an OS UPDATES ??????????????????????
so, you paid the system twice and people seems to be happy ?
When I think about all those those folks who sweared on their mothers's blood they won't pay for microsoft updates, even linux updates, and all those kind of same guys are happy to paid 166 euros to have what they should have once the beginning.......

If I was on mac os X, i would never pay to get what I should desserve once I paid the first release........

as we said in french (that's why my english is so poor)

"J'hallucine ma race !"

Djamé

For the umpteenth time . . .

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:42:00 GMT

It's not an update, it's a new version of the OS.

rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:52:00 GMT

>>How much Macs do you have????

nice contra-celebration

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:31:00 GMT

what's up pussycat!, he finally stepped out the cake, and in exclusive for OSnews, Ladies and Gentlemen, STEVE JOBS minutes before he arrived:
http://www.attrition.org/gallery/cartoons/java_junkie.jpg

student price

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:36:00 GMT

I always wait for a few months to upgrade. Though when i used "doze", i purchased 98 the day it was released. ive been using os x(10.1)for 6 months and im amazed. It rawks,,,,,,,beats my old windoze boxes pants off(see how bad steve's products are..naughty:P). Oh is there a student price for OS X jaguar??

ken

like the cartoon "M"

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:40:00 GMT

i like the cartoon, im almost certain thats me in the photo:P

that is why I still use film

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:05:00 GMT

Hate to say it, but film still works for me. Ya it is expencive, but quality of picts are great. I am waiting for cameras to reach high pixel at resonable cost.

Sprry that you jobs picture did nto get out of the camera, it looked good from thumb.

Jaguar

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:10:00 GMT

rajan, what a party pooper you are - I'm surprised!!

It was over 25 years ago that Jobs and Woz started Apple.

Jobs is a pita to work for - that is common knowledge from over 25 years of reports. But, he does have great charisma.

10.2 is really something. It screams on my new (old) Quicksilver dual 1 GHz Power Mac. I was going to try my wife's eMac next, but ended up instaling it on our 14" 700 MHz G3 iBook with 16 MB video RAM. It is fast on there - I can't believe it! I haven't even cut down to 16 bit color. I am just amazed. If they didn't have those bus bottlenecks...

I'm three years older than Steve and have more hair than he does . Too bad I'm not a zillionaire .

Eugenia's Cube

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:13:00 GMT

After my iBook install, I can't wait to hear about Eugenia's Cube report!

Version Names

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:16:00 GMT

Isn't it silly for the OS to be called MacOS X 10.2 since the X is supposed to be a "ten" anyway? Why have ten twice?

If you said it as Apple says you're supposed to it would be: "MacOS ten ten point two". And you just know that there will not be a MacOS XI 11.0".

Most people I know say the X as the letter "X" anyway. Personally, being an older Mac user, I would prefer System X!

Tautology

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:21:00 GMT

The Win2000 boot screen says "Based on NT Technology".

What does NT stand for? ;-)

Re: NT stands for .....

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:42:00 GMT

New Technology.

regarding productnames/versions:

The Productname is Mac OS X.
The Versions are 10.1, 10.2 and so on...

For all who are confued: 10.2 is a new Version, not a bugfix update or servicepack. It's like from Win95 to Win98 to say it with "Windows words".

Ralf.

I find it less confusing than WindowsNT, Windows2000, WindwsXP and so on. By the way - Microsoft uses internaly Versionnumbers too:

NT = 4.0
2000 = 5.0
XP = 6.0 (?) I don't really know - haven't used XP yet, just testet it and wasn't interested in its verion number.

Atlanta Apple Store

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:46:00 GMT

We went to the Jaguar show at the store here in Atlanta.
The turnout was impressive: most estimates were around 600
attendees. I bought Jaguar (on credit) and got my mousepad
and t-shirt. Guess I didn't win the Mac

The stores airport was up, but quite slow. Of course there were probably at least 50 people using it then

We started the install in the van on the way to late night Chinese food place and watched it finish as we leisurely cosumed poo-poo plater and the General's chicken.

Jaguar does actually seem to be a touch faster than Puma. In
particular Finder is more responsive and Terminal appears much faster 9this is probably the new GL acceleration.

There's a lot of other nifty new stuff (look around the net some for pointers) but a few things seem absent (or really hard to find): Java and the the new net stack.

They appear not to have shipped J2Se 1.4.x with 10.2 as suggested by the hype, and some java apps seem confused about where Java even is (I think it's been relocated from /Library/Frameworks to /Library/Java/Home ). And I have yet to see any hint of IPv6 or IPsec (or even pptp, actually).
They are probably here, but the newer, prettier, flashier but still mostly useless Help Center doesn't know.

Oh, and spring-loaded folders are back (mostly). It only works when you drag a file onto a folder. You don't seem able to just drill down into MacHD like in System 8 (et al).

No more Happy Mac icon,
adric

To seedy

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:52:00 GMT

> How old are the pictures on your web site? I especially talk about the picture with that jaguar(?) fur coat

That picture is 3 years old (and I have full make up on it . The most recent pic on my site is the wedding pic, which is 11 months old. The most recent of all, is the one found on this article.

...jealous of you...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:58:00 GMT

These are the things why I sometimes jealous of you guys in USA... ;-) You can simply went to the next Apple store and join the party. You are near to all that big events and lifestyle.
Here in Germany Jagar day was a joke. Event the big Apple dealers, in Frankfurt for example, had only 30 Jaguar packages in stock. They were sold out in 30 minutes. I don't know what these people thinking of - maybe the won't earn money...
Here in Germany many things have to be ordered by mail. That pisses me off sometimes.

If it goes along that way - in a view years - if you go to a baker an want a bread, he says: "Oh I have to order one - it takes two weeks."

Ralf.

Stalker

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:06:00 GMT

Who's the girl in your pics Eugenia. She looks like she's stalking Steve Jobs. She's quite tasty though.

RE: Stalker

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:30:00 GMT

She is the store manager or something. She was there, inside the store, before Steve arrived.

Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:28:00 GMT

I went to the only Apple dealer in Oakville. It was quite a lame show, I must say. There were maybe 5 to 10 people in the store. I played with 10.2 on an iBook 600MHz. Very slow. It is okay for basic use probably. Finally got some time on the 15 inch iMac with 800MHz. Still very sluggish. I am not impressed. It is nice, okay, but I don't see what the big deal is. I also didn't see what the big deal about Windows 95 was (or 98). I mean, why do people line up at midnight for software? Don't they have better things to do? Back then, in 95, I guess everybody still loved MS, eh? So there is no reason to complain about the "monopoly". If MS can draw lines of customers like that it is hardly suprising it was that successful.

Anyway, the really disappointing thing was that the store did not have a 17 inch iMac or much other stuff. They had a Cinema Display and a G4 (didn't look too closely, maybe it was the new one). The store seems to be okay, but it is too tiny. I am not surprised Apple has a market share of ~5%.

About version numbers: Windows 2000 is 5.0, XP is 5.1, and Windows .NET Server is 5.2. Also, the switch from 95 to 98 was not that big of a deal. I wouldn't call it a new OS. Windows 2000 was pretty much a rewrite of Windows NT. Windows XP focuses a lot on user-experience, hence the XP. It is not a new OS either. To say that 10.2 is a new OS is going a bit too far. It has gcc 3.1, okay, but calling it a new OS...

RE: Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:15:00 GMT

>>Finally got some time on the 15 inch iMac with 800MHz. Still very sluggish. I am not impressed.

RE: Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:53:00 GMT

Of course if you're spoiled by the speed of BeOS as I am, your case might be relevant!

I didn't say that 10.2 was slower than 10.1 or 10.0. I am the first one to admit that it is a lot faster than 10.2. But it is nothing to get excited about. Things just don't happen that fast - unlike on other OSs. And I am not the only person to say that. Check out some Mac OS X forums. Scrolling and resizing windows, starting apps... Also, on the iMac 800 MHz the dock stopped to react for a few, maybe 5 seconds. I was wondering what that was all about. Then it came back to life.

10.0, that is

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:54:00 GMT

Should be faster than 10.0. I don't think I used 10.1 but assume it was somewhere inbetween 10.0 and 10.2 speed-wise...

RE: Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:56:00 GMT

> But it is nothing to get excited about [...] Scrolling and resizing windows, starting apps...

EXACTLY. And this is what I wrote on my review of OSX, that will go live on Monday.

RE: RE: Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 22:12:00 GMT

>>Check out some Mac OS X forums. Scrolling and resizing windows, starting apps... Also, on the iMac 800 MHz the dock stopped to react for a few, maybe 5 seconds. I was wondering what that was all about. Then it came back to life.>EXACTLY. And this is what I wrote on my review of OSX, that will go live on Monday.

RE: RE: Apple in Canada, Versioning

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 22:38:00 GMT

No, it won't be negative. It would be just truthful.

I do my "job", as truthfully as I can. I do not lick or suck dicks of companies or CEOs, as others do, just to play the "good journalist" in a given readership. From me, you will only read the truth, as I see it and as I understand it.

Love me or hate me, I am not your average reporter working for a big corporation (ZDavis, CNet, Macnn, Maccentral etc) trying to not destroy the relationship between these publications and big tech companies.

I have nothing to lose or gain. And there is where all the beauty of what I do here is.

Eugenia...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:02:00 GMT

>>I do my "job", as truthfully as I can. I do not lick or suck dicks of companies or CEOs, as others do, just to play the "good journalist" in a given readership. From me, you will only read the truth, as I see it and as I understand it.>Love me or hate me, I am not your average reporter working for a big corporation (ZDavis, CNet, Macnn, Maccentral etc) trying to not destroy the relationship between these publications and big tech companies.

Macs arent the industry leaders sorry

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:14:00 GMT

Why are ppl forced to love apple?
I dont hate apple at all .. i think its good they are making computers accessible by focusing on trivial stylistic issues. (has a very long chuckle too himself)

Apple is a player.. its competent like Irix, Qnx etc but im not going to lie and pretend i love everything about it. There are many benifits from the natural open feel of windows interface (not apple menu based on application in focus or the stupid dock which its easy to confuse short cuts with running programs ).

What i feel from every apple user i know.. is if i say this i will be hounded and its cause i hate macs. Its not true its my opinion so there... and im not going to love something that i can see at times is a lot more superficial, slow and lacking in real features that i use just to pls u.
No NO no NO

I dont hate macs but i dont love them. Any negative opinion about macs i express dosent automatically make me biased im sorry. I cant believe u guys say eugenia is.. come off it ffs.. cant u handle any criticism of your OS?? At all?

the shoe on the other foot?!

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:22:00 GMT

>>I dont hate macs but i dont love them. Any negative opinion about macs i express dosent automatically make me biased im sorry.

Mac vs pc :P

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:26:00 GMT

Heya catbemac.. Ya should wait till she writes the review before u diss it

I dont remember calling Mac ppl biased... just misinformed

Glenn

... the problem with the truth is, Eugenia ...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:45:00 GMT

I think no one who is hanging here around seriously has ever doubt that you don't say the truth. What I don't understand is why you get always angry when somebody says your Apple reviews have often a negative touch. Because this is also the truth.
By the way - know what the problem with speet measurement in general is? If you don't do it a scientific way, with test cases, stopwatch and many retries to elimitate mearsure mistakes and random failtures you only get individual impressions. I would like to see that you tell the truth about Windows more often.
All of the readers here that uses Windows - try the following:
- open Explorer
- expand the dir-tree on the left
- choose a dir to list the files in icon mode an the right
- now move the splitter-bar between the two views
Result: an awful flickering tree view
This happens on all Windows versions. Since 7 years they (MS) are not able to make a clean refresh of their gui. This is a shame! Apple would never release such a thing. I personly prefer a little slower but clean drawn gui and not a fast ugly drawn one.
Why I tell you this crap? The point here is not saying the truth or not - it is about individual impression and favors. And every artice every human writes (yes, even yours Eugenia) reflect their individual opinions.

Ralf.

PS.: Don't get me wrong. I like your articles - even the apple articles - and I am courous about your Jaguar article.

Off Topic question for Eugenia...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:57:00 GMT

Sorry this is off topic here but I have a technical question about the OSNews forum:

The time that is displayed in the head of the posts:
Example: "Posted on 2002-08-24 23:45:29"
What time is it?

- the server local time?
- the local time of the PC who post the message?
- or some other time?

Thanks!

Ralf.

man...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:58:00 GMT

Reading Glen's posts make me LOL.

Slow?
I am using reason 2 and unity sessions on OS X, it's a joy.

The audio is real time and sweet.

photoshop, AE, Golive are also sweet.

It works great despite your hoping that OS X sucks.

explorer flicker

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:59:00 GMT

The tree panel needs to be redrawn each time.. as youll notice sometimes it needs the bottom scroll bar other times not. How do u suggest they handle this situation? Perhaps its not as trivial as it seems.. it allways has to redraw it .. i guess what would satify u is waiting for the visual refresh of the monitor.. but then it mightnt redraw the whole tree in 1 refresh anyway. No matter which way u do it.. if u cover up the flicker then your wasting cpu redrawing it.

Windows has to compete on the clustered SQL transaction server benchmark .. and so to them a bit of flicker dosent matter as much as wasting cpu cycles. With apple its a different matter.. Personally id like the flicker gone but it dosent bother me that much. I turn off all the little animation features because they are a waste of time.

R u sure your mac isnt redrawing the window so slow it dosent flicker?
Glenn

RE: Off Topic question for Eugenia...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:01:00 GMT

It is UTC.

osx

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:03:00 GMT

I am using reason 2 and unity sessions on OS X, it's a joy.
The audio is real time and sweet.
photoshop, AE, Golive are also sweet.

Waho congrats on catching up to the real world again.. nice to finally have some applications for OSX isnt it?

Still waiting on a sequencer i hear.. Oh whats that my sonar has been 2-4 ms latency for over a year now... how far behind IS Osx audio nowdays

Glenn

Ps DirectMusic rocks over CoreAudio.. most Coreaudio features were in windows 95 (u know all the mixer and default devices and support for 24 bit files etc etc etc) I used to get 2 ms latency in windows 98 for software synths btw. Ive read the web site btw so dont "oh but its coreaudio by apple so it must be wicked" me.

@glenn

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:15:00 GMT

I am 100% sure my OS X Finder doesn't flicker when you move the splitter bars. It is a litte bit slow, lets say lazy.

How I would handle this situation?

Simple: Draw the content of the tree-view to a background buffer in memory and swap the images in the moment the screen does a backtrace. Every 3D game composes it's 3D view like that. Some time ago I developt some things with OpenGL. And in the BeOS times I developt some GUI Controls (a picture button for example) and drawing to a bachground buffer and not direct to the screen was business as usual.

Ralf.

Yeah its not hard

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:29:00 GMT

Its just a matter if windows should do it all the time? lets say its rendering a full screen of ie in 1280x960 (my current res) wouldnt it slow it down maybe a bit too much? What about on older hardware.. windows dosent require a p4 or a gf2

@glenn: IE is another case

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:40:00 GMT

IE is a bad example because the redraw is performed another way. When you resize your browser, the html engine reinterprets the view because the html content is shown in the new format. (text gets a new linebreak, tables a resized etc...).

This eats up cpu and isn't very fast anyway. The Explorer treeview needs a simple redraw. Just the icon bitmap content, the labels and the treelines need a redisplay. This is not a huge task and they even can use the cached information and don't need to reread the icons and stuff. Even a Pentim I 233MHz shuld do this more than 25 times per second. And this should be a possible job to solve for a company that makes billions of $ per year.

Ralf.

Glenn...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:41:00 GMT

>>Waho congrats on catching up to the real world again.. nice to finally have some applications for OSX isnt it?>Still waiting on a sequencer i hear.. Oh whats that my sonar has been 2-4 ms latency for over a year now... how far behind IS Osx audio nowdays >I used to get 2 ms latency in windows 98 for software synths btw.

RE: Glenn...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:48:00 GMT

Win98 was pretty solid for me. It did crash but only very occasionally (not more than X11 or Linux does today when playing a 3D game...).

WindowsXP is ROCK SOLID here. I haven't seen a single crash since March. All you have to make sure is that you have the latest patches and XP-only drivers, certified. By doing this, Windows XP PRO is the most stable OS I _ever_ saw.

"Windows is the most stable OS I _ever_ saw"

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:58:00 GMT

"Windows is the most stable OS I _ever_ saw."
You should specify in which tasks you think that, please.
Only games? I am sure for graphic's design is not the best choice.

Huh?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:01:00 GMT

Where the heck to you get this crap, Glenn?

Your bash fest ain't working cause you got the facts wrong maam.

" Still waiting on a sequencer i hear.. Oh whats that my sonar has been 2-4 ms latency for over a year now... how far behind IS Osx audio nowdays ....
most Coreaudio features were in windows 95 (u know all the mixer and default devices and support for 24 bit files etc etc etc.."

When someone says windows 95 audio capabilities are the same as the core audio in OS X, thats when I shrug and say, whatever dude,don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, LOL.

You complained earlier that OS X is SOO slow, I reply I am working with audio (with the lowest latency anywhere) and it ain't slow, it's a joy.Take it or leave it. Do you have any clue how good it is to have ims latency, built in midi (no more OMS or free midi), and the kicker, firewire kernal extensions for audio, midi, mLAN?

Close minded trolls ain't who I waste time with.

Trolls

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:05:00 GMT

Close minded trolls ain't who I waste time with.

Hmmm.... didn't you just do that?

OK OK...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:06:00 GMT

We're back on the beaten track for OS partisanship.

What you need to accept is that non-geeks view computers as tools. The Operating System is also a tool, and one that should be out of the way letting you concentrate on your applications. When it gets in your way, such as by being slow to respond or not having $FEATURE that is commonplace, it leads to statements like "I am not impressed.". After all, if some other OS can do it, why can't MacOS X?

Conversely, what the non-geeks need to understand is that building a mature product (stable, high quality, feature rich) takes time. There's no way to get around this requirement without getting the buggy rushed-to-market software frequently seen in this day and age. Of course, time is the exact thing that people aren't willing (or aren't able) to give.

Users of OSen come from an entire gamut of professions and personalities. Some OSen fulfill their particular needs better than others. This leads to the partisanship we're seeing here, and in most other comment forii on OSNews.

I'll admit that I'm partisan to MacOS X. I hate the idea of reading reviews that say "Yes, Apple delivered 10.2 *yawn* overhyped, and still sucks because it doesn't have $SOME_LAME_FEATURE, and who pays US$129 for a .1 upgrade? I don't care what it has, it has to cost less! Spare your money, spare yourselves, avoid 10.2 at all costs". But, if that's how people really feel, then the truth will out...

RE: "WindowsXP is the most stable OS I _ever_ saw"

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:09:00 GMT

>Only games? I am sure for graphic's design is not the best choice.

Believe it or not, I do NOT play games on my XP machine anymore. I DO use PaintShopPro, IE, OE, CuteFTP, ICQ, MSN Messganger, Y!, AIM, WinAmp, Media Player, QuickTime, CuteHTML, Opera, Mozilla, Netscape, GobeProductive, StarOffice, SharpDevelop, Apache, PHP and other things like that. Nothing really fancy. I use my XP machine about 16 hours a day. Not a single crash since March that I installed it.

This is for WindowsXP PRO btw. Not for other versions of Windows. Windows 2000 was pretty good too.

Latency + Crashes

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:19:00 GMT

I remember reading an article that you can't get below 10 ms guaranteed latency. Unfortunately, I don't have the link or any more details. All I remember is that it said that there was an internal kernel buffer that makes it impossible to guarantee that latency will be below 10 ms at all times. That was for Windows 2000, I doubt it changed in Windows XP.

As far as I remember my wife had only one crash in Windows 2000 ever. Of course, she doesn't do any super-fancy, but still.

I am running Windows .NET Server at the moment. It has some very nice features, like the "Configure Your Server" wizard. It is very task-oriented, which makes installing and setting up IIS, for example, very easy. I miss something like that on other operating systems. It is very well thought out in my opinion. It hasn't crashed yet, which is good

I'd say for most people Mac OS X and Windows 2000/XP/.NET won't crash. Even Windows 98 was very stable and I had it in use for many hours a day.

...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:34:00 GMT

Ralf.: For all who are confued: 10.2 is a new Version, not a bugfix update or servicepack. It's like from Win95 to Win98 to say it with "Windows words".

This sparked an outcry, because Windows 98 is just like an update to Windows 95. A lot of bad press indeed. Even though a lot was changed since Windows 95 (like USB support, Unicode support, IE integration etc.).

XP = 6.0 (?) I don't really know - haven't used XP yet, just testet it and wasn't interested in its verion number.

XP is 5.1, which is the reason why 2000 users don't feel like moving. But 5.1, you could say, is just like Mac OS X 10.2. I think the problem is that 10.x was once used for an free (well, almost) upgrade, using 10.x again (10.2) with a full price sparked an outcry. If Microsoft release 5.1 as an upgrade and then 5.2 as a full version - guess what will happen? It would flop just like Windows Me :-)

Adric: Oh, and spring-loaded folders are back (mostly).

But in some Finder view modes, it doesn't work, I heard.

CattBeMac: Now here is the real kicker... most Windows (or MS advocates as yourself) would say that because Mac users give their negative opinions about Windows

I don't see any Windows/MS advocates calling Mac users *biased*. We debate your points, we don't agree. Come one, we are human beings, none of use aren't biased, none of us are objective. Live with it, or evolve into a new spesis :-P

Ralf.: Result: an awful flickering tree view

It started flickering on Windows Me, it didn't on Windows XP and 2000.... I wonder why....

God dammit, this is a bug, not a cause of it's (lack of) design.

This eats up cpu and isn't very fast anyway. The Explorer treeview needs a simple redraw.

Explorer's treeview depends on IE. It is some weird HTML/XML combination.

CattBeMac: I'm not surprised, Win98 was slow and unstable (more so than Win95)!

Windows 98 more unstable than Windows 95? You gotta be kidding. As long you manage to keep your apps apart (i.e. like in OS 9 and below) in the memory, nothing much could happen.

nestordi: Only games? I am sure for graphic's design is not the best choice.

The only graphics designing it is not good for is for print, because Windows doesn't provide native CMYK support, unlike Mac OS. For everything else, Windows is reall good. Heck, most 3D artist use either Windows NT or Linux. Little use Mac OS X.

willem: Close minded trolls ain't who I waste time with.

God dammit, just because you are in the audio business just like Gleen (I'm guessing) doesn't mean automatically his opinion is moot and your isn't. I notice you didn't compare OS X and Windows, which Glenn would naturally compare.

So as for trolls is concern, Glenn isn't one. He/she find himself more productive on Windows/PCs and from his point of view, Windows is technicall better. That is HIS/HER opinion.

OK

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:47:00 GMT

troll was not the best descriptor and I apologise.And it also is illogical for me to say I won't waste my time when I just did.

But he posted a bunch of stuff that was not true.
And the tone was troll LIKE.I didn't compare cause I was countering his spin and untruths Re OS X and it's audio capabilities.

I have no beef with windows as an audio tool.

I just don't let someone post unfounded stuff/

And his tone while posting was what set me off.

No need to curse.

audio

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:57:00 GMT

The Explorer treeview needs a simple redraw. Just the icon bitmap content, the labels and the treelines need a redisplay.
My poiny was working out what needs redrawing and redrawing just that, using a backbuffer is only going to work with smaller windows.. the treeview does have to be redrawn completely each time.

When someone says windows 95 audio capabilities are the same as the core audio in OS X, thats when I shrug and say, whatever dude,don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, LOL.

URM the few that i noted were in windows 95 SORRY. But yeah coreaudio has wave drivers built in so u dont need asio.. just like Directx5 (for audio output only gave me 2 ms under win98 and stay up for days all the time using 98% in a software synth(i used to leave it on to test it)) and now wdm. (The best driver achitecture ever.. when will kernal mode mem protection come to osx and linux (they have talked about bringing it to linux)). Maybe the G4 cant give mem protection for kernal processes.. anyone know?

Just face the fact that a built in midi synthesier and mixer functionatlity in the operating system were in windows 95.. so a lot of these things u find new arent to windows users. Coreaudio looks good it will catch up to WDM directMusic once complete support for vsti fx. But its still not as complete as DX of course:) juts close...

tell me a feature of coreaudio that isnt in win2k?

What latency are u on now.. dont say lowest ever.. i can run mine sub ms.. can u ?
"Do you have any clue how good it is to have ims latency, built in midi (no more OMS or free midi), and the kicker, firewire kernal extensions for audio, midi, mLAN?
"

Yes i do have a clue and the motu firewire devices work great with wdm driver latencies in sonar < 5 ms.. What latency do u get with firewire audio now?

Midi WDM drivers are supported in windows since win2k.. so your 2 years behind .. waho.

Mlan built into the OS wahoo.. that means nothing once its finalised (how come its taken so many years) it will be on windows with a wdm driver.. That means kernal mode performance and memmory protection.. as opposed to just kernal mode performance on osx.

If im a closed minded troll how come im the one being specific and your being vauge and dismissive?

audio

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 02:02:00 GMT

" remember reading an article that you can't get below 10 ms guaranteed latency. Unfortunately, I don't have the link or any more details. All I remember is that it said that there was an internal kernel buffer that makes it impossible to guarantee that latency will be below 10 ms at all times. That was for Windows 2000, I doubt it changed in Windows XP. "

Thats the directmusic latency, used to render dolby 5.1 game fx live in the xbox. WDM kernal streaming drivers provide the best perforamnce. As for the guaranteed latency.. there was an artical about OSX audio performance compared to linux and windows.. it was completely bogus because it didnt use WDM drivers.. which are native win2k drivers and avalible for many many cards. They used MME and DX drivers and claimed that windows couldnt perform in under 10 ms... this was wrong .. my friend gets 16 real time tracks with 20 live fx on it.. all in 5ms and never a dropout. Thats the real performance of win2k right now.

That apple study was just such a joke.

yup

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 02:14:00 GMT

i agree its funny how these xpee people reply to OS X. They think they know it and never have used it. Windows trolls just put your foot where your mouth is.......you sound more intellegent that way.....

hmm

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 02:22:00 GMT

I was talking about the OS itself, not added hardware.

RE: yup

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 02:32:00 GMT

Sorry I missed what all the bickering was about. Just wanted to point out that I've never used Windows XP, but have been using OSX since March. What happened? I gave my iMac to my mom, and now I'm gonna build me a REAL dual CPU computer and load XP pro.

I will admit, from March to now August, it is a very short time compared to the 5+ years I've been using Windows, but as far as XP vs OSX is concerned, OSX doesn't have enough incentives and reasons for me to want to use it, whereas XP is everything I've been using for the last 5 years and more. Now, people have hold me that OSX is more stable, and the famous "It just works" phrase, but it still not enough to convince me. By the way, "It just work" is not always true. The 56K modem in my iMac - brand new G4 700 - never worked properly since the day I bought it. No matter what I do, it would disconnect after 5 minutes. I've read an article on TheRegister critisizing the quality of modems in Macs, and I have a friend who has 3 times now sent her Mac in to the shop to replace the modem. That's 3 strikes. Broadband is the cure, people have told me, #sarcasm# well why don't I wait until the next phase of .Mac where Apple rolls out their own broadband ISP and give them more money.

A new category

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 02:48:00 GMT

Anecdotes are always fun to read.

A switch switcher.

Love it.

Steve Jobs' turtleneck

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:37:00 GMT

That turtleneck he wears is to hide the circumcision scar :-)

Trolls, glenn, willem

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:00:00 GMT

willem: I have no beef with windows as an audio tool.

Strange, cause quite frankly, you are the first audio person who doesn't use Windows one way or another. All the audio guys I know thta uses Mac have a Windows workstation around networked to the Mac for some reason...

Besides, an opinion different from yours ALWAYS sounds like a troll. That's life. A troll is something like this: Windows XP is still based on DOS, Mac OS X is just Aqua over Mac OS 9, etc.

rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:04:00 GMT

>>Windows 98 more unstable than Windows 95? You gotta be kidding. As long you manage to keep your apps apart (i.e. like in OS 9 and below) in the memory, nothing much could happen.

CattBeMac...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:08:00 GMT

>>we have 2 guys here at work that use me on their laptops (for work purposes due to being able to get XP to access shared drives... I've talked about this before of course)

Re: rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:13:00 GMT

CattBeMac: {i]Well it's from my own experience, which was part of the reason I avoided that upgrade path from Win95 and purchased a Mac instead. Helk not even WinME is that stable, we have 2 guys here at work that use me on their laptops (for work purposes due to being able to get XP to access shared drives... I've talked about this before of course) for one guy it averages 2 crashes a day per shift, I'm a witness to those events! The other has said if it wasn't for XP being somewhat stable, that he would drop Windows all together and install Linux![/i]

In my experience, I experience less BSODs on WIndows 98 than on Windows 95. Plus, I notice Netscape only crashed once a week on Win98, compared to once in two days on Win95. (Same version).

But Windows 98 wasn't that stable in the first place, I moved to Linux around that time. But it was much more stable than Windows 95 for sure (especially when it comes to IE and netscape).

But Windows Me was Microsoft worse mistake. never had see such an unstable version of Linux before in my life. Heck, I once installed an alpha version of kernel 2.5 and alpha KDE 3.0, it didn't crash as often as Windows Me.

Besides, in 1998, since when was the Nac stable? Heck, that was the reason why I went the Linux route... Mac OS 8.x (or was it 9) was as stable, if not more, than Windows 98 :-P. Oh right, you moved to Be OS first.

PS: Isn't this whole message OT?

Oh BTW

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:14:00 GMT

Why weren't they able to share drives? Seems strange...

rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:24:00 GMT

>>Besides, in 1998, since when was the Nac stable? Heck, that was the reason why I went the Linux route... Mac OS 8.x (or was it 9) was as stable, if not more, than Windows 98 :-P. Oh right, you moved to Be OS first.

rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:38:00 GMT

>>Why weren't they able to share drives? Seems strange...

reply to RR

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:43:00 GMT

"Strange, cause quite frankly, you are the first audio person who doesn't use Windows one way or another. "

??
You don't get out much?

Thats the beauty of the internet, there is a variety of peeps out here.

Where are you located?
On the west coast of the US, the majority of musicians I know use macs (see the qualifier-the "I know").

BTW, G previously was being a bit disingenous, he was talking about using audio cards with windows, I was referring to the OS solely. Big difference.

rajan, you're a forum troll

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:55:00 GMT

rajan, I've been reading your comments on these boards for the last few months, and I must say... you exemplify forum troll like no other.

Let me guess... I'm not the only one that has ever said this to you. Am I right?

(Something tells me yes...)

Looking forward to the review

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:57:00 GMT

Eugenia,
i'm looking forward to your review. I've resisted trying the newer Apple hardware for quite a while (i have an old PowerPC) instead settling for BeOS, Linux and Windows 2000 (for games) on Intel including a couple of dual CPU PCs.

I would like an opinion from someone or some reviews of the latest Yellow Dog Linux. I am considering buying this and dusting off the old PowerPC, installing YD Linux and using it as my mail server.
cheers
peter

OT: My version is waiting for me

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:28:00 GMT

from the fedex site:
- Scan Activity Date/Time Comments
- Package statusMIRABEL CA 08/24/2002 11:49 Package not
due for delivery
- Package statusMIRABEL CA 08/24/2002 11:47 Package at
station - awaiting courier

Everyone is against ME.

RE: OT: My version is waiting for me

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:40:00 GMT

Hey you're not alone, I am still awaiting my copy... it's somewhere in the Netherlands, I'm not sure who is actually going to be the courier!@#$%^&*?

that's some reality distortion field ...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:59:00 GMT

that's some reality distortion field that Steve Jobs emits ... affects camera flash RAM ... impressed!

Re: yup

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:18:00 GMT

spaceboy29: i agree its funny how these xpee people reply to OS X. They think they know it and never have used it. Windows trolls just put your foot where your mouth is.......you sound more intellegent that way.....

It's also extremely funny how macheads reply to XP. They think they know it and never have used it. Windows trolls just put your foot where your mouth is.......you sound more intellegent that way.....

CattBeMac: I have found it to be strange, but my guess would be the built-in FireWall within XP denying them access (actually they can't even see the shared drives

Weird, it works for me. Of course, I switch off the built in firewall, and use Zone Alarm.

willem: Where are you located?

Malaysia. My older brother ambition is to be a audio technician or something like that, so naturally I know what most people over here use.

Eric Peterson: rajan, I've been reading your comments on these boards for the last few months, and I must say... you exemplify forum troll like no other.

Really? I never got any warnings, no complaints, no moderated down posts etc.

Eric Peterson: Let me guess... I'm not the only one that has ever said this to you. Am I right?

You're the first one. Just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't make me a troll. Read the moderated down stuff, those are *real* trolls.

rajan r...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:24:00 GMT

>>Weird, it works for me. Of course, I switch off the built in firewall, and use Zone Alarm.

Opinion/troll

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:17:00 GMT

It would seem that one man's *opinion* is another man's troll

re:sweeny

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:33:00 GMT

Glenn said "Macosz audio and network drivers are in unprotected kernal space. You will need to reboot after an audio crash because the audio driver can write over any mem (remind u of os9?)..when logic for osx finally gets released"

I was curious and contacted one of the core audio guys at Apple I know (he also wrote OMS, galaxy, and a lot of studio vision pro when he was with opcode) and asked him about Glenns statement.

He replied,

"I have never heard of "unprotected kernel space." Kernel space is protected from applications and vice versa, and applications are protected from each other. But drivers on any OS with protected memory must run in the kernel and thus the kernel is always vulnerable to driver bugs."

The drivers out so far are rock solid he said.

wdm

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:53:00 GMT

" But drivers on any OS with protected memory must run in the kernel and thus the kernel is always vulnerable to driver bugs."

On the x86 a kernal process can be protected from writing outside its mem space (mem protection) but it cannot be stopped from reading. So its a security risk but not a stability one. As i said only windows has this technology and its been in it since win2k.

"With the aid of a processor's memory management unit (MMU), Win2K marks as write-protected the drivers' and OS image's code portions. If an errant driver attempts to modify these portions of kernel memory, the Win2K Memory Manager immediately detects the violation, and an administrator or developer can then easily identify the faulty driver."

http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=7486&pg=2

Glenn

-'-

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:12:00 GMT

No OS can protect itself from a buggy kernel driver. The best the OS can do is what Microsoft -- to their credit -- is doing: maintain a database of drivers that are known to destabilize the system and refuse to load them.
If Windows were any different than MacOS in this regard, it wouldn't have or need a feature like the one described at http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/driver/drv_protect.asp:

The Driver Protection feature in the Windows XP Professional and Windows XP Home Edition operating systems protects operating system stability by preventing the operating system from loading drivers that are known to cause stability problems. Driver Protection is built upon application compatibility technology present in Windows XP. Driver Protection is active at all timesduring operating system upgrades from prior versions of Windows and at runtime after the operating system is installed. Driver Protection is not intended to be disabled by end users.

intel can do it

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:15:00 GMT

I never mentioned driver protection. Im talking about the WDM driver model itself. WDM are the only kernal mode drivers with memmory protection.. this is made possible by the x86 achitecture.

Glenn

Dear Glenn

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:43:00 GMT

Let's see if I understand:
1) You say you are not biased, and that you are not a troll.
2) You don't stop bitching about some feature OS X doesn't have, while Windows had it for years ha ha ha!
3) Then you say it is only possible with the x86 architecture (you haven't forgotten that OS X doesn't run on that architecture have you?).

What are you doing exactly?

-'-

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:07:00 GMT

heh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:10:00 GMT

"Steve Jobs enters the building, passing next to me by just one meter from where I was standing, and people around started getting really excited!"

I'm not surprised Steve Jobs had to pass by Eugenia before people noticed him lol ;-)

huh?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:45:00 GMT

He's been comparing windows audio card's capabilities and drivers (made by 3rd parties) with the core audio system capability of mac OS X.Which is a bit disingenous (to say kindly)."

No i wasnt what are u talking about? Unlike Macos9 which had little mixer and little audio format support nativly .. windows allways has. Just cause ASIO wasnt written by apple dosent mean WDM wasnt written by microsoft .. it was.

WDM drivers give 1.5 ms now in sonar such as the hammerfall card. How am i supposed to demonstrate latency without an audio card? (Only osx Coreaudio reality distortion field can do that) All of directMusic and the Audio streaming apis.. and the GM synth and the rest of directmusic were written by microsoft. Just like apple wrote coreaudio.. i really dont see what your trying to say here..

DirectX and DirectMusic and WDM drivers are all MS technology.. the card was just mentioned to prove it works at this now.

"I say that the OS X of mac now incorporates many features that are 3rd party add ons (hardware and soft) for windows."

Such as? Sherlock? Itunes? This is the worst practice of apple is to steal ideas of third third party developers and bundle it. This forces MS to bundle movie maker (etc) and then MS gets criticised for bundling.. this whole situation is a joke.

g4

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:51:00 GMT

2) You don't stop bitching about some feature OS X doesn't have, while Windows had it for years ha ha ha!
3) Then you say it is only possible with the x86 architecture (you haven't forgotten that OS X doesn't run on that architecture have you?).

Actually i didnt mean to post so much about windows cause this is an OSX artical.. im going to try keep my posts to topic.. its just hard to resist replying when ppl have replied to my post.

The fact is in some ways linux is ahead, in some OSX and in some windows. What is bogus is that OSX is more advanced than every other operating system.. its not it lacks in some ways just like windows.

Coreaudio dosent bring anything over what win2k has now. Thats the truth and any amount of superhype wont change that.
3) I never said it wasnt possible.. i asked.. i know the x86 can do it but i dunno if the g4 can. Can the G4 mark pages as read only to a kernal level process ?

re: wdm

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:53:00 GMT

I never mentioned driver protection. Im talking about the WDM driver model itself. WDM are the only kernal mode drivers with memmory protection.. this is made possible by the x86 achitecture.

I was wondering what on earth you were on about so I had a look on the MS site and WDM drives usually use Kernel mode which is described in part as follows

From Microsoft Kernel mode allows full, unprotected access to the system. A driver or thread running in kernel mode has access to system memory and hardware.

So no, kernel mode drivers do not have any extra memory protection and are as such no more stable.

As far as I know the only way to do this would be to put the drives outside the kernel - i.e. use a micro kernel but this can have performance problems, OS X uses the Mach micro kernel (although I guess it's changed a lot since it first appeared in the 80's).

this is made possible by the x86 achitecture Memory protection is made possible by using a MMU which has been a stard feature in most CPUs since the 1980s. My 68030 Amiga has an MMU.

Do you know something about the WDM driver model that even Miscrosoft don't ???

wdm

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:14:00 GMT

hehe its rather confusing.. but ill paste the whole paragraph

http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=7486&pg=2

Win2K debuts several features that prevent, avoid, and resolve system crashes. In NT 4.0, device drivers can modify, or write to, any part of kernel-mode memory. Device drivers and the NT kernel reside in kernel-mode memory, which creates the possibility that an errant driver can corrupt another driver or the OS. With the aid of a processor's memory management unit (MMU), Win2K marks as write-protected the drivers' and OS image's code portions. If an errant driver attempts to modify these portions of kernel memory, the Win2K Memory Manager immediately detects the violation, and an administrator or developer can then easily identify the faulty driver.

Read it carefully.. at first after reading your post i thought id pasted something wrong.. Its saything that *drivers* wont be able to corrupt kernal memory...

thats kernal level process.. having memory protection.

Glenn

-'--=--?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:54:00 GMT

"I say that the OS X of mac now incorporates many features that are 3rd party add ons (hardware and soft) for windows."

Your previous posts were talking about an audio card weren't they?

And further into your recent posts,I was referring to OS X audio.
Not sherlock, etc.
Quit projecting.

And,further into yerposts, I was talking OS X not OS 9.

I love it when you throw in all these points.

The very weird thing is no one has bashed or even critised windows here 9(re audio or anything else).

you have a very strange way of bashing OS X.
I no more am interested.

I just use it and enjoy it.

-???

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:56:00 GMT

"I say that the OS X of mac now incorporates many features that are 3rd party add ons (hardware and soft) for windows."

I meant that solely for the core audio portion of OS X. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Add ons?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 26 Aug 2002 03:07:00 GMT

Whats the Add on? What did u mean ?? What addons are required to windows.. my argument was that whats in coreaudio is in windows and was written by MS. MLan and firwire are marketing hype.. firewire audio works right now under windows even at under 5 ms, mLAN was due out for windows and mac 2 years ago. Its not my fault that they are so pathetic, they have gotten nowhere and so now peer with mac to get some much needed publicity for it. To claim macosx is better cause it supports mlan, is pointless.. what difference does it make its just a driver, its like saying MAcosx supports gf4 and pcs dont(think about it for a sec Macs come default with the gf4 driver cause they come with mx.. but u can buy windows without the gf4 driver therefor its not by default in the OS ). Windows supports all the audio formats and mlan support in operating system (Is this what your talking about by 3rd party?) is nothing more than a sticker for some publicity nothing that will add any real performance benefit. Both will use a driver... so what. No OS changes are required.

The reason i went on about sherlock is cause they stole watson, and itunes is because they (once again didnt write the software).. i was confused i couldnt see what 3rd party add ons they bundle with osx that isnt in windows. (esp in terms of audio)

Im glad u use and love osx.
i never said you shouldnt. Many why do ppl take it so personally.. i was talking about just 1 feature that windows has that macosx dosent and everyone claims foul and says that im a troll and that thell never read any of my posts. Way to have an open mind guys.