Submitted by “With our operating system, the Playstation could very easily be your home CD player, DVD player, MP3 player and home computer, as well as a great game box,” said Terra Soft CEO Kai Staats of the PS3, “This is not an application-limited appliance, this is a full-blown computer. There is no issue of ‘can it do this or that?’ It can do everything.” More here.
Interview: How Yellow Dog Linux Transforms the PlayStation3
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Eugenia Loli
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I feel like I should be excited about this, but I’m just not. I’ve seen this before and to be honest, many of these should be base features of the PS3 (DVD player, CD player, MP3 player). Even if it added media center capabilities, I’ve seen and used this before too.
I guess what would make it somewhat interesting would be if it could act as a PVR but then again I’d need to purchase an add-on device then get it working in the OS. Even so, am I really going to spend that sort of money just to get the recording functionality? No way. There are much cheaper alternatives.
Edited 2006-10-31 03:22
Even so, am I really going to spend that sort of money just to get the recording functionality? No way. There are much cheaper alternatives.
Really? How many devices in this price range do you know of that have an HDMI port tnat can output to 1080p, and a Blu-ray player? Even if you’re not interested in buying Blu-ray movies, if you have a Netflix account, this could come in handy.
And if the disto works as advertised, then you have what is basically a whitebox for running Linux (which means homebrew and emulation out the wazoo), plus near-perfect PS1 & PS2 emulation out of the box.
Sure, but at the moment the only function I’m missing is recording to a HDD, which I can pick up for much less as a stand alone device, or couple that function onto my computer (which is generally always on anyways) with a cheaper USB HDTV capture device.
None of my equipment is HDMI compliant, as would be millions of others out there. Just my point of view.
Edited 2006-10-31 05:29
Terra Soft will also offer a version to be sold next to the Playstation 3 in retail environments.
They didn’t say what Sony’s attitude is toward them turning their product into a desktop, but if it’s OK to stock YDL on the shelf right next to it, they must be OK with it.
That indicates a striking difference between Sony’s attitude about Linux on the PS3 with Microsoft’s attitude about Linux on Xbox.
How is that striking? Linux poses no threat to Sonys busyness, since they don’t sell an Proprietary Operating System.
Microsoft is in direct competition with Linux. That they don’t feel like supporting it is about as remarkable as the insight that most people don’t enjoy shooting into their own feet.
How is that striking? Linux poses no threat to Sonys busyness, since they don’t sell an Proprietary Operating System.
You’re saying that, but if all the PS3 get bought up by Linux enthusiasts who will only be playing emulated games and doing desktop-work, and they’re not buying any PS3 games, Sony will go under. They’re heavily subsidising the PS3 in the hopes enough games will be sold.
If you don’t want to play games you can get an better equipped pc for about a halve or a third of ps3s price.
Pretty much nothing uses cell support on linux, you can be happy if it at least works, but it sure won’t run faster than on an x86, because optimizing for cell is quite an difficult task while there are very few people using cell. Having only an quarter of RAM of what is to be considered normal on a modern pc doesn’t help either.
Also you can say those pretty browserplugins and win32codec using media apps goodbye as well.
So your scenario is about as likely as a visit from zombies *and* aliens while a big meteor hits earth on near years eve, and Sony knows that or they wouldn’t do it. That whole thing is exactly the same deal as Net Yaroze and Linux on PS2.
But there is novelty and fun in running Linux on novel platforms. That’s what attracts people to run Linux on Xbox. If the desire was just for a practical platform, then sure–it would make no sense at all.
Yes, if you read what i answerd to you would see that this was not my point. My point is, this will not be Sonys dooooom due to an army of linux fans buying all ps3s and never buying any games.
So having a linux distro on their hardware is no risc for them at all.
Linux on odd systems is fun, but you won’t spend piles of money just for the fun of installing linux on it.
… but, ultimately, it doesn’t really want the PS3 to turn into a desktop Linux machine. Sony will likely sell the PS3 at a loss, in the hope that it will make up the lost revenue with sales of games, accessory hardware, bundling deals, advertising, licensing, and online subscription. But, when you install Linux on a PS3, you’re basically working against Sony’s business model (just as installing Linux on an Xbox works against MSFT); thus, I can’t imagine that Sony is very enthusiastic about promoting PS3 Linux. More likely, they want to build buzz and get developers interested in using their platform. Not a bad strategy, but you have to wonder how much weight they’re really going to throw behind Linux. Call me skeptical.
I seem to recall Sony saying all these same things about The PS2. How the PS2 Linux kit would change everything, and online gaming was going to be a cornerstone of the PS2, and how the PS2 would replace your home PC, with shopping, browsing, chat, etcetera. You and your PS2 will live in a magical, sugary land with chocolate rivers, gumdrop trees, and everyone lending their fellow man a hand.
Sony fooled me once and killed the Dreamcast with hype. They won’t fool me again.
Sony is not saying it this time, TerraSoft is.
I think you not read the right news from the front : Sony *IS* saying all of this, and even more foolish/selfish than the previous affairs !
Kochise
PS(1/2/3) : The PS1/PS2 emulation was confirmed to be really weak on the PS3, so forget the “near-perfect” hype of it…
“I think you not read the right news from the front : Sony *IS* saying all of this, and even more foolish/selfish than the previous affairs ! ”
Oh boy, you are starting to sound like an old woman over this. Give it a rest already.
Funny you should use “recall” and “Sony” in such an unorthodox manner. They aren’t accustomed to seeing the phrase, “recall Sony”. It’s usually the other way around.
If Yellow Dog will be on retail shelves along with the PS3 at several locations I hope that Terra Soft will considered offering two versions available for purchase.
One version could come as a standard box set edition with DVDs and manual, and a second retail offering that will bundled with a wireless keyboard and mouse.
People may be more inclined to purchase YD if it comes with a keyboard and mouse. The end user would also know that they would be getting something physically tangible because of the bundled keyboard and mouse.
And its may also be more convenient for the end user since they would not have to think about getting additional hardware to have full access to Yellow Dogs features.
They would probably be able to get a good quantity discount from the likes of belkin, viewsonic, logitech etc.. and offer a decent quality keyboard and mouse set.
Edited 2006-10-31 04:25
That is a great idea!
Thanks. I emailed it to their suggestion box when I was thinking about it earlier.
The PS3 has been sounding very interesting in the news I am really hoping to read some early detailed reviews of its abilities and YD on it when its launched on the market. Hope the price isnt overly insane.
If Sony is going to allow anyone to run Linux and any programs they want to on the PS3, doesn’t that open it up to piracy or cheating in online games? I don’t know much about it really so perhaps I’m wrong, but it still seems very unlike Sony to allow this. If they are ok with this why do they keep updating the PSP firmware to lock out third party programs?
If Sony is going to allow anyone to run Linux and any programs they want to on the PS3, doesn’t that open it up to piracy or cheating in online games?
No. PS3 games don’t run on Linux, let along Yellow Dog Linux. They’re entirely unrelated aspects of the PS3.
If they are ok with this why do they keep updating the PSP firmware to lock out third party programs?
Because they’re unable to move PSP games and media. If this becomes a problem on the PS3, you can be certain Sony will rethink its strategy — but for now, Sony’s betting that people will buy PS3s for the games first and foremost.
Who needs the “year of desktop linux” when you have “year of ps3 linux”? The power of open source amazes me sometimes.
The real limiter it has only 256MB RAM. That’s the reason why they are using Enlightenment and not Gnome / KDE as their desktop. Other than that, I am sure the PS3 will be excellent for number crunching (if the applications are specifically written for it).
Maybe it is upgradable.
Maybe it is upgradable.
I really hope it isn’t. There’s no point on buying a videogame console if you need to check the “System Requirements” whenever you buy a new game. Ok, Sony said that “it isn’t just a console” but…
On the bussiness side, it doesn’t look really appealing: The market will be separated in those who have bought the RAM expansion and those who haven’t. Both Sony and Nintendo proved that console expandability isn’t all that great (Think about PS2 online gameplay for example).
My guess is that YDL for the PS3 is going to be great as media centre and homebrew, but I don’t think it’ll be able to replace a desktop computer.
Yup. This is surely the catch. And while Enlightenment looks cool, it is a bit odd in terms of usability. I am very curious to see how this all turns out in the end. If it would generate half the community support that the GP2X is seeing it would be a success.
Maybe someone can patch the kernel to use all the wasted VRAM as swap.
It can do everything? Can YDL for PS3 play BluRay discs? If it can, I’m sold.
somehow I doubt the statement ‘It can do everything.’
I am almost 100% sure it cant access the BD-ROM in DRM mode, nor is there an API available for it’s 3D graphics.
of course I would loove to be proved wrong!
I too am somewhat sceptic about this. Of course I hope for the best and if all the promises really come to reality, Sony has one more 100% sure buyer. Heck, I might even buy this distro just for the cause.
I already have a HTPC for movies and TV capture. This could turn it into tv-and disk server while ps3 would be the frontend. So no other additional hw would be needed. Nor do I believe that I’m the only one in this situation.
I truly hope that this won’t turn be another overhyped possibility.
“PS(1/2/3) : The PS1/PS2 emulation was confirmed to be really weak on the PS3, so forget the “near-perfect” hype of it…”
What would be funny is if an emulator under YDL would provide better results for PS1/2 emulation
Why is it that people assume that since Linux is on PS3 that automatically means you can use homebrew emulation and linux games on it. I’m almost certain that emulators would have to be ported to the cell. I’ve also noticed most homebrew emulators contain optimizations specific for x86 (what most authors own). Emulators on the PPC Mac tend to lack those kind of optimizations for example as a result.
Regular games might be easier but even they have to be tweaked and recompiled… possibly practically rewritten to run on the cell… how many emulators or even games do you see in the applications list at terrasoft’s site?
That’s not to say that someone might not take on the job but it’s not automatic.
Edited 2006-10-31 08:42
Why is it that people assume that since Linux is on PS3 that automatically means you can use homebrew emulation and linux games on it. I’m almost certain that emulators would have to be ported to the cell.
Well one reason to assume emulators will be ported would be that they’re written to be portable. Sure, some optimizations might be missed, but most emulators are written in C AFAIK. Which would explain how they could be ported to GP2X, and Linux-DS so easily (not to mention various PDAs), all running on different ARM chips.
Porting an C Programm to another OS is relatively painless if those OSes run on the same kind of Hardware.
Porting an C Programm to another Hardware architecture can be *lots* of work. It is not just copying some files and recompiling.
It’s not the first time that YDL converts good machine become less functional box. In case of Power Book, Mac OS X can be reinstalled any time. But how about PS3? How if after installed it, the Blu-Ray is unusable?
The idea of Linux on PS is good for PS2, where used PS2 is very cheap, and we can build array of PS2 Linux.
@Kochise
Could you please provide a link where it has been confirmed that PS1/PS2 compatibility is weak? And what they (you) exactly think with that “weak” statement? Not all games will be working? Almost none will be working?
The only part that I’ve seen related to subject is that PS3 won’t enhance PS1/PS2 games. Is that what you are referring to?
The fact that the DVD player isn’t supported, there are a number of bits not supported, and Sony has failed to update their kernel release to 2.6; its all listed on the Sony Playstation Linux community site if you’re willing to spend the time to surf over there.
Anyway, for me, personally, QNX RTP would have been a better operating system that should have been provided and loaded onto the machine by Sony.
One of the few ‘official’ statement over the issue : http://ps3.net/newsboard/view.php?id=440
Kochise
I know since 2.6.16 the Linux kernel has had Cell support; does this mean that if I compile a kernel for Ubuntu for Cell, it will work? Or is this much more complicated?
Yes it is much more work. First you have to compile every single app you want to use yourself for use with cell. This also will only work if those apps you want to use have been ported already.
hmmm…. I wonder if Gentoo is going to jump on the PS3, if it doesn’t have plans already!
It does, although I think it is still in the early stages.
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060807-newsletter.xml
I think that’s just a great move. Being a linux user primarily for *counting* over 8 years, I’ve been only considering Windows for gaming. With the current state of PC market, I’m bit more than plain fed up with upgrading hardware each 6-12 months to keep up with the latest innovations. Therefore, I’ve already decided to jump on the PS3 bandwagon as soon as it gets available.
On the other side, if they offer a linux distro for that platform, this can really take over the usual home desktop tasks, on a piece of hardware which is nothing compared to the price of keeping a PC up-to-date over even a couple of years!
As a sidenote, I’ve been using E17 as my primary desktop environment for more than a year, and while I happily admit it might have problems at a wider audience, it’s the best fit for me – most welcome!
I think that’s just a great move. Being a linux user primarily for *counting* over 8 years, I’ve been only considering Windows for gaming. With the current state of PC market, I’m bit more than plain fed up with upgrading hardware each 6-12 months to keep up with the latest innovations. Therefore, I’ve already decided to jump on the PS3 bandwagon as soon as it gets available.
On the other hand, you’re pretty much locked into the perf of a particular console for an average of 5 years. Not so with a PC. Upgrade whenever you want.
But! can’t they think of a better name?!?
What’s wrong with Yellow Dog? I mean, what’s geekier than a potential Martin Amis reference?
The “Yellow Dog” name might have some kind of futile gesture geek reference that would appeal to Linux enthusiasts and even more so to the PPC subset, but “Yellow Dog” is almost universally agreed upon as Amis’ worst novel:
http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/amism/yelldog.htm
Reviewer phrases like “complete failure,” “rambling mess,” “very flawed,” “unremitting sleaze fest,” “chaotic, sprawling, and garbled.”
Hmm, maybe those words do describe Linux . . . 🙂
The “Yellow Dog” name might have some kind of futile gesture geek reference that would appeal to Linux enthusiasts and even more so to the PPC subset, but “Yellow Dog” is almost universally agreed upon as Amis’ worst novel:
Yeah… it was a joke. I doubt that “Yellow Dog Linux” is a reference to the name of a novel that was published after the distro came into existence.
“You’re saying that, but if all the PS3 get bought up by Linux enthusiasts who will only be playing emulated games and doing desktop-work, and they’re not buying any PS3 games, Sony will go under.”
Sure, and next thing you’ll know they’ll buy out Sony!
Seriously, I’m not exactly seeing hordes of Linux users ‘hoard’ PS3’s… basically because Linux users (sadly) are still a minority. Besided, most who dual-boot for gaming, are *already* paying for Windows-based titles. With a PS3 in the house, they might now look at ‘Playstation-exclusive’ titles.
The thinking behind those super-duper game consoles is to have one of them “in every household”. That’s why they’re all touting multi-functionality.
Or did I misunderstand your point of view?
Seriously, I’m not exactly seeing hordes of Linux users ‘hoard’ PS3’s… basically because Linux users (sadly) are still a minority. Besided, most who dual-boot for gaming, are *already* paying for Windows-based titles. With a PS3 in the house, they might now look at ‘Playstation-exclusive’ titles.
Correct..but my point was that Sony takes a few hundred dollar hit for every PS3 sold to someone not using it for gaming. Linux enthusiasts who won’t use the PS3 for games are perhaps a minority, but they *are* a threat seeing how Sony isn’t doing so well on a whole, and are really depending on the PS3 to do well.
I’m not saying Sony *will* go under as a result of Linux, I’m just saying Sony will be hurting.
With a driver for a USB TV-Card, the PS3 would become the ultimate device: PVR + Awesome games, all in HDTV.
/D
I would totally install yellow dog if I could still have the gaming functionality of the PS3. It seems like a waste to install Linux on it and give up all the great features PS3 offers… especially in terms of gaming.
YDL will let you partition your drive and when you start up you PlayStation 3 you can choose to boot in to the default PS3 OS or in to Yellow Dog Linux.
What about fitting openoffice 2.0.x in 256 Megs of RAM ?
+Firefox or something else, at the same time ?
I’m personally not a huge fan of Sony, I’m probably going to get a Wii. But on the other hand, I am running linux on my iBook G3 in an attempt to breath some life back into it, but the lack of Flash support really pisses me off. I despise Microsoft so much that I refuse to install win32codecs on my x86 linux box – I don’t even want to support their codecs, and that has been alleviated with flash video sites like youtube and googlevideo. But in PPC linux, I don’t even have that to fall back on!
But with YDL on the PS3, there is some hope that the PPC linux userbase will grow significantly. Perhaps we can leverage that expanded user base to get Adobe to release flash support for PPC linux!
http://lists.terrasoftsolutions.com/pipermail/yellowdog-announce/20…
The Cell CPU isn’t compatible with an normal PPC CPU, not even it’s main Core alone, so that doesn’t change anything in terms of PPC support.
It may no be completely compatible but it is based on the POWER4 (aka PowerPC 970) and does use the PPC instruction set and machine language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor
So any advances in the Cell hardware or software development will most likely also advance the standard PPC line.
Edited 2006-10-31 19:49
To say that the cell is “based” on POWER4/PPC 970 is a bit misleading. While the design impliments the Power4/PPC 970 instruction set (which is to say 64bit PPC) the implimentation shares little if anything with the PPC970 or existing POWER4 implimentations.
The design that the PPE *does* impliment, is very similar, if not identical, to the PPC cores used in the Xbox 360’s 3-core ‘Xenon’ CPU, and stems from earlier research IBM had done regarding the implimentation of the PPC architecture in comparatively little silicon. A distinguishing feature that all 3 of these designs share is the unique dual-thread implimentation, where-by one thread executes until it is stalled or pre-empted, at which point the other thread is executed until it is stalled or pre-empted. There is no Out-Of-Order execution either, which is a predominant feature of the super-scaler Power4 and PPC 970 designs.
Developers, speaking on the performance of the Xenon CPU, have been quoted comparing a single Xenon core (AKA PPE in the Cell) as being roughly twice as powerful as the original Xbox’s 733Mhz PIII-based Celeron. So, as far as general purpose computing goes, if a task is unable to leverage the SPEs, performance will be comparable to a 1.5-1.8 ghz PIII, albeit 64bit.
Whether or not this is enough general-purpose computing power remains to be seen, but most tasks I can think of that fall purely into the “general purpose” computing catagory (Word Processing, Web Browsing, Email, compilation, etc) should have enough juice to get by. I’m a little more concerned with whether or not it’s enough juice to keep the SPE’s fed, while maintaining game logic in PS3 games. Much like how pairing a very fast GPU with a slow CPU in a computer fails to wield the GPU to its fullest potential, I wonder if the same may be true of the SPUs in the future.
These are all very good point that you bring up, but all I was try to say, and maybe I wasn’t specific enough, but the PPE in the Cell, the core that control the rest of the chip IS POWER4/PPC970 compliant, thats all.
It may no be completely compatible but it is based on the POWER4 (aka PowerPC 970) and does use the PPC instruction set and machine language:
It’s the other way around, the PPE in Cell is binary compatible with the 970 but not the same design. There should be plenty of software to run out of the box but it should *really* be recompiled first.
I’m wondering if the ‘mainstream’ release of YDL is going to be set up like the PS3 release, that is, using E17 and all that.
If it works well, ill probably buy a ps3 and run YDL on it and use it as my main tower. My current pc is a p3-600/512mb ram.. the ps3 will be a HUGE upgrade. and if good emulators get released for it, so much the better!
cant wait.
If i ever get one ill wait for PS3-ubuntu
I think Sony made a great move by allowing YDL on PS3. If nothing else, it’s great PR and they don’t even have to put their engineers into the project. In addition, any linux user who already wants a new console will lean towards the PS3 just because of that.
But the really great news here is this: a $500 to $600 computer, which you can hookup to your tv. A good 4 years lifespan if not more before the next Playstation, during which millions of PS3 will sell. All with the same hardware, which means any app or game you create on your YDL PS3 will run on anybody else’s YDL PS3 with the same performance.
Am I missing something or the PS3 could be the new Amiga?
Reminds me of XBMC (Xbox Media Center) on the original xbox. If anyone still has one, you owe yourself to softmod it and install XBMC, it’s awesome.
Edited 2006-11-01 02:47
How’s the driver support for this? Can you use the optical drive at all (even in a basic mode that would allow home-created CD-Rs/DVD+/-Rsor/BR-Rs to be read) or would you have to invest in a USB CD/DVD drive to do stuff? Can you access the 3D hardware? Without those two functions, PS3 Linux is USELESS as a platform for homebrew game development. (Actually you could work around the built-in drive not working by using an external drive, but no access to the 3D chipset would be a killer)
Can you use the optical drive at all
No.
Can you access the 3D hardware?
Only through a set of restrictive APIs.
Without those two functions, PS3 Linux is USELESS as a platform for homebrew game development.
It’s not meant for homebrew game development. It’s meant to one up Microsoft’s Xbox 360 media center functionality.