OSNews:

Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (CrazyDude0) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:58:00 GMT

PS3 lost quite a bit of advantage because it is almost 1 year late in the game.

After 1 year, people would expect something that would kick XBOX 360 left and right but that is not the case here. PS3 is nice but i think with more games and titles, XBOX is the way to go. Specially with online gaming.

Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:59:00 GMT

* can't do jack all whilst downloading
* can't pause downloads
* complicated setup
* lack of high def cables in the box

Honestly, you'd think Sony were intentially not bothering to compete at all. It's like the Zune software not having Podcasts or Smart Playlists - who exactly are they trying to compete with; 2001??

Other than some developers I like (Insomniac), the most interesting thing to come out of PS3 may be Linux and the ingenious things people can start home-brewing.

RE: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (anevilyak) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:03:00 GMT

Home brewing would be difficult for the time being: afaik the current Linux build for the PS3 doesn't have access to the graphics acceleration hardware, though I'm not sure that'll be the case for the build of YDL that's supposedly arriving sometime soon.

I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (jackeebleu) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:08:00 GMT

Sony is the new Apple!

Remember a few years back when Apple could no right, it was always, "the beleagured Apple", well it look like Sony is the new whipping boy. People can talk about the weak lineup for Sony all day, but make n o mention of the line up for the Wii? Hmm, must be like how Fox News is fair and balanced right?

Re: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (anevilyak) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:18:00 GMT

How is the Wii's lineup poor exactly?

Besides which, considering the hype Sony have been building about this particular system for years now, yes it is going to get far more criticism than most when the reality falls incredibly far short of what was promised despite numerous delays.

Too bad Sony doesn't open up their design.

donotreply@osnews.com (SamuraiCrow) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:19:00 GMT

It might be a decent PC-beater given time but it doesn't sound like PS3 will compete well as a game system. If Sony wasn't selling these at a loss they could put the OpenGL-ES in the native Yellow Dog Linux distro and let us develop new simple games with SDL and OpenGL. It sounds like Sony wants to beat Windows with Linux but not at home.

RE: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (santana) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:25:00 GMT

Well, some of those are firmware glitches, that will probably be reworked with new revisions (no background downloading, pausing downloads)

Not sure what you mean by complicated setup, probably that report that says you have to plug wireless controller ONCE before it is ready to use.

Lack of HiDef cables are a small pain in the a**, but for me bigger pain is that I lack HD TV

Sony doesn't have to be perfect on a launch day, they will sell every single one even if they've

a) made ten times more that estimated 400k
b) made some REALLY big mistakes with PS3 (instead of this few minor, firmware update fixable ones)

Look at the big picture; the next gen war just started, it will be fought for next 4-5 or even more years. Dreamcast had one year headstart, and 10 mil consoles sold, look at them now

MS shipped estimated 7 mil consoles, and they've sold 2.5 mil of them in first 10 months (MS says number is a bit higher, 3.3 million). Not too much of a headstart, really (considering that numbers for Sony consoles tend to be 100+ mil during 5-6 years lifecycle).

Anyway, this next gen war will be interesting, competition is good Both MS and Sony have insanely powerful machines, and Wii is bringing some neat innovation at a cheaper price.

RE: Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (SamuraiCrow) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:25:00 GMT

Online gaming? See the following article:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061122-8275.html

It looks like we're going to be using Blue-Ray disks for software for some time to come.

the only oponent

donotreply@osnews.com (foez) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:29:00 GMT

Well Tom it doesnt surprised me you came with this article. I'm going to buy it because it's a nice alternative.

RE[2]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:39:00 GMT

I'm not doubting that the PS3 will be a success, it will. I'm basing opinion on the right now - and not the 'possible' future. Sony is doing a 'PC' on us, pushing out a half finished product and patching it later. 10 years ago, no console would launch in an flakey state, period. The truth of the matter, is that right here and right now the PS3 has a sub-optimal experience compared to the highly honed XBox360.

Are we so brain washed by marketing and hype that we spend $600-$10'000 on a console, and accept that the firmware is only '1.0'? 1.0 should mean final, done, feature complete. Is this the console equivilent of web2.0's 'Beta' or what?

Sony are right, the PS3 is a PC alright, the users will accept just about any bullcrap shoved their way.Edited 2006-11-22 23:40

RE: the only oponent

donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:42:00 GMT

Ars technica 'came up' with the article; and it was a very good article that tried to get through the thick sickly hype-fog surrounding the console.

RE[3]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (santana) — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:59:00 GMT

Well, 10 years ago you didn't have internet download or a complicated setup, because consoles were not doing too much, you would just put cartridge or CD in it and play a game

Today consoles are trying o became the center of home entertainment, and firmware (or console OSes) are starting to get much more complicated. And with a chance to easily get firmware patches, I really don't find it that bad. Sony (or MS) can adopt firmware to what people actually want.

I wouldn't go that far to say that PS3 has sub-optimal experience to XBox 360. It is probably weaker in some areas (downloading stuff) and better in some other areas (uhm, I don't know, built in web browser? 20GB disc by default, 60Gb in high end model, support for guest OSes, support for HD movies, built in power supply....). Btw, MS actually didn't get it right either, their first consoles actually also didn't have background downloading. Which was fixed via firmware patch

Relax, you probably didn't have a chance to buy PS3 yet, by the time you will, the price should drop, and minor annoyances will be gone and forgotten. And if you were lucky enough to get one on launch day, enjoy, it is a really nice piece of hardware and you are in the 0,005 % of world populace that has a privilege of owning it.

RE: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (tmack) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:27:00 GMT

I'd say Nintendo is the new Apple.

Let's face it, with the GameCube Nintendo got owned by Sony and Microsoft.

Now, they try something in a completely fresh direction and they are doing great and "back in the game" again.

Hell, they even have the same color scheme as Apple. Even the Wii GUI is decidedly Appleesque (lots of white, pin striping, etc).

RE[4]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (smitty) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:29:00 GMT

Yea, the 360 wasn't perfect when it came out either, there just wasn't anything to compare it to back then except the previous generation so all the reviews tended to be pretty positive and overlooked some of the problems. The sad truth is that almost nothing that is easily updated these days (by the internet) comes out in a polished form. That has affected PC's for years and now that the consoles are online it is affecting them as well. Obviously most companies have decided that when possible it makes business sense to release early and patch later.Edited 2006-11-23 00:31

RE[2]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (Fennec_Fox) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:57:00 GMT

I think you might be right here... PS3 is far superior in graphics and processing power, but it lacks the "Wow!" factor. Nintendo on the other hand is trying to re-define how the game is played. Only time will tell if they succeed, but it will be fun to watch.

What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (airwedge1) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:58:00 GMT

The way I see it there is not anything that xbox has that the ps3 doesn't, and there are several features that the ps3 has that the xbox does not.

So logic dictates that the ps3 is superior.

I am willing to overlook a few (minor in my opinion) bugs.

The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (rayiner) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:18:00 GMT

The lack of a message isn't really the weakness people seem to think. Sony has made a very successful business making the Playstations neutral platforms, with a focus on third-party software development. The PS1 was one of the first consoles to ship without an official mascot, which was seen as a very risky move at the time, but ultimately meant that Sony could concentrate on third party support without having to consider their first-party franchises.

All told, it would be unwise to count out Sony. They have an enormous head start, with 200m PS1s and PS2s sold, and almost 2 billion software titles sold. Its going to take a lot more than a few launch mistakes to unseat them from their position. If Nintendo continues to follow their practice of ignoring third parties in favor of their own (lucrative) first-party franchises, and Microsoft continues its practice of ignoring Japan, Sony's launch screw-ups aren't going to matter.Edited 2006-11-23 01:18

RE[2]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (blitze) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:19:00 GMT

No, no, Apple is still a whipping boy.
It's just that missery loves company.

Time will tell and unlike Apple, Sony is made up a many seemingly independant entities that behave in a variety of ways. Sometimes good, sometimes bad and everything inbetween.

RE[2]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (smashIt) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:50:00 GMT

Let's face it, with the GameCube Nintendo got owned by Sony and Microsoft.

ms and sony wrote red numbers in their game divisions. nintendo did earn money.
I'd say nintendo owned them all

Expensive

donotreply@osnews.com (HTAT) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:51:00 GMT

I would rather buy a computer.

HTAT,

http://www.hardwaretipsandtricks.com

RE[3]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (rayiner) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:36:00 GMT

Sony loses money periodically during the development of new consoles, but they made a huge net profit over the lifetime of the PS1 and PS2. Even with a billion dollar loss incurred during the development of the console, they made back several times that in license fees and system sales.

Nintendo is consistently profitable with its systems, but they also don't make as much money as Sony does over the lifetime of the system. Also, Sony's primary profit center is the platform, while Nintendo's is their first party games (they're one of the largest game publishers in the world). Sony's console business by itself would still make a lot of money, while Nintendo's console business by itself wouldn't.Edited 2006-11-23 03:37

No core message

donotreply@osnews.com (camo r) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:01:00 GMT

for now, considering that it's only been a couple of hours since launch. For the love of gaming wait until we have the next firmware, the next couple of games that are developed solely for the power it harnesses, then come back and check your review.

It's the same everytime, who needs cds when we have cartridges, who needs dvd based games when cd's are all we are ever going to need.

Should probably dredge up every negative review that came out about earlier consoles just for the heck of it.

too early to tell

donotreply@osnews.com (Square) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:29:00 GMT

If you go on tech specs alone then the ps3 should be the clear winner. Right now the ps3 seems lack-luster do to the games looking like xbox360 games, but maybe a year from now when devs know the system better we'll see better.

If you look at xbox, ps2, gamecube the only reason the ps2 did so well was the sheer amount of games. So the same might happen to the 360

Even when the dust settles and one system comes out on top the market clearly supports 3 systems. The ps2 was the lead system, but the xbox/gamecube still sold well enough that you can go into any store that sells games and get one, as well as new games for it.

RE: too early to tell

donotreply@osnews.com (johnny77) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:08:00 GMT

I'll just wait for the PS3 slim version.

PS3 Is a computer

donotreply@osnews.com (bnolsen) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:23:00 GMT

Recent linux specmarks show the Cell's PPE by itself runs the same specmarks as a Mac G5.

If I can abuse the SPE's to run separate compilation threads or use them to kick some ass on rigid body dynamics, then it would be an awesome dev machine with the ability to boot up into some casual gaming.

Honestly though I'd much rather just buy a workstation with a couple of cell processors inside. Also reports are that Cell itself costs under $80 per unit. Anyone know if IBM or anyone plans on selling these types of workstations?

RE: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (Carnevill) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:40:00 GMT

RE: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:21:00 GMT

*adds a point to the score*

Very true; Sony on one hand spends half its time coming up with expensive proprietary technology whilst Microsoft sits back and things, "now, how can we get all this stuff to work together; 360, computer and Zune all singing a sweet tune for the end user".

For example; Sony came up with PSP; great idea; UMD; another great idea, small media that's easily portable - stupid idea? not providing a drive to allow people to transfer their music to the drive - not providing a touch screen to allow PSP to be more than just a glorified gaming machine.

Microsoft has their eyes open and realise that end users will want to use their machine for mor than just one purpose; Sony on the other hand have their heads up their ass doing everything half assed, if it isn't their half baked porting of Linux and support of alternative operating systems, its their crap firmware which has a half baked browser, and if isn't their crap software, it is their half-baked kit and costly expansion bits and pieces.

RE: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:27:00 GMT

How is Microsoft ignoring Japan? you do realise that there are more countries besides Japan? given the estimated Wii sales, is it really worth their while trying to go the full monety?

Also, remember the last company who entered Japan without researching? Vodafone, who failed to realise that flip phones were the preferred device, but they insisted on delivering standard - net result? they lost billions on their investment; they've since bailed with their tale between their legs; maybe Microsoft want to make sure than when they enter the market with everything setup.

PS3 success -- dev platform

donotreply@osnews.com (PlatformAgnostic) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:28:00 GMT

The PS3's success will depend largely on how good its development platform is. Microsoft has invested heavily in tool support for the 360, and I've heard an awful lot of negativity about the PS3's dev kit from friends who work for game manufacturers.

On the other hand, Japanese dev houses, which are often the best ones, will put the effort in to make great games for the PS3 despite the difficulty in programming it.

RE[4]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (Jemm) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:22:00 GMT

>Btw, MS actually didn't get it right either, their first consoles actually also didn't have background downloading. Which was fixed via firmware patch

That's true, but Sony should have learned from others and implemented background download in the first place. No point in repeating the same mistakes.

RE[2]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (AdamW) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:49:00 GMT

Er, except you can use the PSP as a mass storage audio device with a memory stick. Why would anyone except Thom The World's Sole Remaining Minidisc Apologist want to buy a UMD writer drive for the express purpose of transferring audio to the PSP when they can just copy MP3 files to a memory stick?

UMD

donotreply@osnews.com (Moochman) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:50:00 GMT

The whole point of the UMD was that it was write only--Sony created it with the explicit purpose of preventing games from being copied. Otherwise they would have just used the MiniDisc format.... Of course, in my opinion the DS's lack of moving parts makes it smaller, sturdier and more elegant. But despite the UMD's limitations, I still don't get what the big deal is--can't you just copy music/movies to a memory stick if you want to use them on the PSP?Edited 2006-11-23 08:52

RE[2]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (AdamW) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:52:00 GMT

Er...

you realise Microsoft entered the Japanese market a long time ago, right?

They launched the XBox there early. Heck, they launched the 360 there before the U.S., IIRC, or at least simultaneously. They backed them with huge, expensive publicity campaigns.

Net result? Mass indifference. Japanese people just don't buy XBoxes. I can't really figure out why. There's nothing particularly wrong with the system from a Japanese perspective. Their marketing is fine, they contract it out to local firms, they don't stuff it up culturally or anything. Heck, they even have at least a few games in the classically popular genres. Just...no-one really buys into it.

RE: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (Moochman) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:59:00 GMT

While I haven't used either system, judging by the reviews it sounds like it's not so much a difference of features as it is a difference in ease of use. It's like the difference between (ironically) OS X and Windows-- OS X is simply designed better. The XBox interface is simply designed better. For me, that's a big selling point. Others may feel differently. The PS3 side of things may improve with firmware updates, and it may not, that remains to be seen...

RE[3]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:07:00 GMT

Because memory sticks are expensive, slow, and lack size.

RE: UMD

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:09:00 GMT

And memory sticks cost a bloody fortune, slow and lack space; give me a 16gig memory stick for $80, then we can start talking about the viability of memory sticks.

RE[3]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:13:00 GMT

Nationalistic loyalty to local brands, the fact that it comes accross as yet another attempt by a US company to dump a product on the Japanese market without creating any long term relationship by setting up a decent presence in Japan?

Western businesses stuff up in Japan because they just don't get it(tm) they come in thinking in western terms; there was a good article on those who are succeeding in Japan; its all about developing relationships, networking and so forth; something the so-called 'fast moving businesses' like Microsoft would rather not spend time doing.

Like I said, XBox, yet another sad attempt to dump and extract money out of a country.

RE[2]: UMD

donotreply@osnews.com (AdamW) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:26:00 GMT

Er, why, because you'd be able to buy a 16GB UMD and a writer for $80?

RE[3]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:07:00 GMT

"I can't really figure out why."

Because MS is not a Japanese company?

RE[2]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (REM2000) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:22:00 GMT

i agree also, look at the dimensions and the look of the Wii, it wouldn't look out of place next to an iMac.

You don't have to dominate to win

donotreply@osnews.com (Priest) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:29:00 GMT

I believe the game industry has passed the movie industry in yearly revenue.

I believe in the last generation the numbers were

PS2 - 111 consoles shipped
Xbox - 24 million
GameCube - 22 million

MS never made money on their last generation console because they never really reached their break-even point where they made money on the sale of the console. I believe they have already done this with the 360 only a year out so they are likely going to be profitable.

The ability to play xbox games on the 360 is a new selling point for the platform that Sony has enjoyed for a while. (I just picked up some xbox titles for the 360 for $20 each)

The wii is looking to be more successful than the GameCube as well, with the PS3 price range outside of most budgets, a wider audience, cool remote, GameCube compatibility, and downloadable NES, SNES, N64, and Sega games the wii is looking to be a huge hit.

I believe Nintendo is projected to sell 2 - 4 million wii consoles before Christmas where Sony will only sell 400K due to shortages.

Sony will do fine because they are Sony, but the fact that they will basically miss this holiday season due to shipment delays (like 360 last season) is going to create a problem because of their price point.

During the shopping season people might be willing to overlook the fact that you can get a 360 and a wii for the cost of a PS3, but as they actually begin delivering consoles in Feb/Mar people are back to making more responsible buying decisions.

So sony will remain profitable because they titles will pull it through, but the 360 and the wii will gain on it in this generations. All 3 are projected to be profitable.

BTW, here are the current numbers for this generation from http://nexgenwars.com/

360: 7,342,878
ps3: 280,623
wii: 762,007

RE[2]: Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (Alleister) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:31:00 GMT

I don't quite get what you are pointing to... you link in an article dealing with latancy issues and then you say something about blue-ray as a way of distribution software.
Latancy is no where relevant for distributing software online, it is just relevant for networked playing.

And as for now, playing games over an online network works well enough. Otherwise we would not have thousands of WoW players and i never had any lag issues with Counterstrike: Source on my favourite servers as well.

So the Ars-Article not only deals with an entirely different topic but also only is an "what could happen".

RE: PS3 Is a computer

donotreply@osnews.com (jonas.kirilla) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:59:00 GMT

I suppose Genesi have enough on their plate, with their upcoming products (featuring IBM's PPC970MP and Freescale's MPC8641D), but I think they are the most likely player to enter the market with a Cell based board targetting developers and enthusiasts, perhaps even embedded/industrial. I think that would be awesome. Cell unleashed, without restrictions, just plain OpenFirmware. No DRM. Less secrets. Simply running $MYOPERATINGSYSTEM as close to the machine as possible.

FWIW, there's a PS3 section on their developer website:
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/playstation.php

And they blog about Cell from time to time:
http://likerabbits.blogspot.com/
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/Edited 2006-11-23 13:05

RE: PS3 Is a computer

donotreply@osnews.com (miserj) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 13:39:00 GMT

Mercury Computers has some Cell products ranging from a blade, 1U server, eval system.

www.mc.com/cellEdited 2006-11-23 13:41

The way I see it

donotreply@osnews.com (Anton_Andreev) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:24:00 GMT

Excuse me!

PS3 is more powerfull from hardware point of view.
PS3 is open! You can install Yellow dog Linux and Fedora Core 5(there is a howto). When I pay money I want this thing to be mine(!!!) and do with it what ever I want - hacking it(installing Linux or whatever)! That is not true for Xbox. PS3 can be a general purpose computer with Linux and USB keyboard I suppose.
Comment this please!

Can you write discs with PS3? 54Gb writer is a enormous advantage.

lol

donotreply@osnews.com (cchance) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:38:00 GMT

It doesnt matter if the 360 wasnt pefect at launch, you dont compare a year ago to today... people out ofr consoles will look at THE CURRENT SETTING OF THE GAMING ENVIRONMENT and thats a matured 360 that is showing off better than the ps3 end of story

Big loss for Sony

donotreply@osnews.com (GCrain) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:40:00 GMT

I think the PS3 has a lot more power and capability that won't be utilized for a while. It takes a while for the game developers to utilize too. Maybe not now, but later it will be good. Prices for components will come down.

I found this article about the loss per unit.
From EE Times:
"Sony is taking a loss of roughly $307 on the lower-end model and $241 on the higher end model."

Combine this with the battery recall...

RE: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (cchance) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:43:00 GMT

"The way I see it there is not anything that xbox has that the ps3 doesn't, and there are several features that the ps3 has that the xbox does not.

So logic dictates that the ps3 is superior. "

If thats true, then i suppose the zune is superior to the ipod, yet fanboys disagree

RE[4]: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (Ookaze) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:58:00 GMT

Nintendo is consistently profitable with its systems, but they also don't make as much money as Sony does over the lifetime of the system

Sure enough, Nintendo makes more profit by console sold than Sony. So what do you mean ?

Also, Sony's primary profit center is the platform, while Nintendo's is their first party games (they're one of the largest game publishers in the world). Sony's console business by itself would still make a lot of money, while Nintendo's console business by itself wouldn't

This is false. Nintendo earns money on everything : console, 1st party and 3rd party games.
What you say is even more false for handhelds, where Nintendo makes tons of money off handheld sold as well.
Sony mostly does money on games. Selling lots of console helps of course.

RE: The way I see it

donotreply@osnews.com (cchance) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:03:00 GMT

"That is not true for Xbox. PS3 can be a general purpose computer with Linux and USB keyboard I suppose. "

NO IT CAN NOT BE A GENERAL PURPOSE PC... atleast not a good one, stop believing sony FUD,

The Cell processor is an In-Order Executive Processor, with NO branch prediction, in other words, its highly in-efficient and much slower at general processing than any other desktop processor, and on top of that its technically only got 1 single general purpose core.

idiots

donotreply@osnews.com (cchance) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:12:00 GMT

"Also, Sony's primary profit center is the platform, while Nintendo's is their first party games (they're one of the largest game publishers in the world). Sony's console business by itself would still make a lot of money, while Nintendo's console business by itself wouldn't"

Sony looses around 250-400$ on EVERY SINGLE PS3 sold, and has to make it back in game sales and peripheral (currently under a 1:1 sales ratio, horrid) So no their console business is NOT profitable

Nintendo makes a profit on every console and every game, primarily because of the outdated hardware in the wii unit itself. But it does make profit none the less per console sold

The 360 is estimated to be loosing about 50-100$ per console at this point, with further cost cuts inline in 2007 to bring it to profit per console, and has a 5.2:1 game ratio and also a high accessory ratio... so they are much closer to profit than sony is, and will probably reach that in mid to late 2007.

I don't know where people keep getting there numbers from and thinking sony is some mamoth of a company that can take a billion dollar loss... did anyone see sonys 2006 financial figures???

Sony is razor thin on their success, 2006 only showed ~$678 million in net profit, a billion dollar loss would have sent them majorly into the red, and its estimated witht he large loss they are taking on each console as well as low adoption rate of games, 2007 could be even worse than last year. On the other hand microsoft did 3BILLION dollars net profit, and nintendo did $715 million still more than sony...

So lets see microsoft is a big daddy because of all its other business so it doesnt have to worry about losses really to get the consoles out the door, and sony with it's entertainment connections and electronics and all that other stuff still didnt manage to pull off as much profit as little nintendo did in 2006... sad but true check your facts before posting.

PS3 will win

donotreply@osnews.com (konrad) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:21:00 GMT

In the end.
Priest lucky you that you picked one of the ~270 xbox games do work on a xbox360.

This is why I believe PS3 will win:
A huge fan base. 111 Million.
98% bc with ps1-ps2 games (a catalog of (insert large number here) of games).
You can install Linux on it.
You can use PSP with it.
Better games.

Games for xbox360 are all soulless. Check ICO and Shadow of the colossus if you don't understand what I mean.

Well Xbox360 is powerful but its not even close to the raw power PS3 can produce. Xenos is probably a little bit more powerful than RSX. But I would say CELL is alot better than xenon.

My 0.02$

RE[2]: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (Ookaze) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:23:00 GMT

Gears OF War, Bioshock, Mass Effect, Too Human, Lost Planet, Halo3, Alan Wake, the list goes on.. These are the things that the 360 has. The hardware isn't what sells the system its the games

I agree, games sell the hardware. Unfortunately, none of the game you cited, are hardware salers. Halo was, and Halo2 follows, but that's all.
Now, compare with what Sony has : GTA, MGS, Final Fantasy. Well, I should rather say companies like Enix Square, Capcom, Konami.
You know, all the hit makers ! People will buy the console just to play these games, you can be sure of that.
Nintendo is one exclusive for, well, Nintendo.
That's what XBox360 and MS lacks. XBox360 was selling as much as the GameCube in Japan. If you want all these hit makers japanese companies, you've got to pay for it, or make games that appeal to the japanese market, so that it sells in Japan, and that japanese companies make games for the console.
When MS did that, the two games that could appeal to the japanese market (Blue Dragon and NNN) tripled the sales of XBox360 there. It's still not much, but it's a good start.

RE[3]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (Ookaze) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:31:00 GMT

you realise Microsoft entered the Japanese market a long time ago, right?
They launched the XBox there early. Heck, they launched the 360 there before the U.S., IIRC, or at least simultaneously. They backed them with huge, expensive publicity campaigns.
Net result? Mass indifference. Japanese people just don't buy XBoxes. I can't really figure out why

And I'm not surprised you can't. You're not alone. People stuck in viewing games fun as how many polygon a console can draw can never understand the japanese mind, which is not about polygons, but about actual fun games.
So these people (like you) can't understand that Brain Age will sell far more than Halo in Japan.
Fortunately for MS, they seem to have understood that japanese people want games, not polygons, and started paying the japanese companies to do some worthwile games for the japanese market. And the effect was instantaneous : 3 times the usual (low) sales there.
Sony, having japanese heads, don't have these problems. They also got good relationship with most japanese 3rd party.

There's nothing particularly wrong with the system from a Japanese perspective. Their marketing is fine, they contract it out to local firms, they don't stuff it up culturally or anything. Heck, they even have at least a few games in the classically popular genres. Just...no-one really buys into it

You're wrong only in the part that matter : they don't have even one game in the classical popular genre that is any fun or good ... or don't have at all.
Unless you think FPS is "the classically popular genres".
These genres are what Capcom, Konami, Square Enix, Nintendo, ... does.
Sony doesn't have to worry, as for now, PS2 is still selling very well, while PS3 struggles with supplies.

RE[2]: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (arooaroo) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:43:00 GMT

But this was what people said about the Xbox when it came out despite the already established PS2. Whilst Xbox did ships with a couple of killer games (Halo, PGR) from the outset it took a couple of years to become a contender.

This time the 360 has an advantage but I don't think anyone's doubting that the PS3 will deliver some amazing games in the near future.

But, Sony has a lot to lose and they really ought to have delivered a more polished experience. I'm still leaning in favour of the 360. Us Europeans are still waiting for PS3.

RE: idiots

donotreply@osnews.com (Ookaze) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:51:00 GMT

Sony looses around 250-400$ on EVERY SINGLE PS3 sold, and has to make it back in game sales and peripheral (currently under a 1:1 sales ratio, horrid) So no their console business is NOT profitable

Agreed.

Nintendo makes a profit on every console and every game, primarily because of the outdated hardware in the wii unit itself. But it does make profit none the less per console sold

Agreed, except for the outdated part. But I guess if it's not the very latest best, it's outdated to you. Whatever.

The 360 is estimated to be loosing about 50-100$ per console at this point, with further cost cuts inline in 2007 to bring it to profit per console, and has a 5.2:1 game ratio and also a high accessory ratio... so they are much closer to profit than sony is, and will probably reach that in mid to late 2007

Given that very few XBox360 games attained the 1 million copies sold, your 5.2:1 game ratio doesn't bode well to the actual number of XBox360 sold worldwide.
Yes, I know they shipped nearly 7 millions, but that's only shipped, not sold. In Japan, where it matters, if Sony had the supply, they'd have caught up with the XBox360 in 2 months time !! Japan is also interesting, as they have the channels to tell you the actual number of console SOLD, they don't care about shipped. And by my calculations, there are less than 200 000 XBox360 sold in Japan by now.

Sony is razor thin on their success, 2006 only showed ~$678 million in net profit, a billion dollar loss would have sent them majorly into the red, and its estimated witht he large loss they are taking on each console as well as low adoption rate of games, 2007 could be even worse than last year

This would be true if only you took the Console division alone. But that's not what you did, so all your conclusions are wrong.
What you are saying here takes into accounts things like laptop battery recall, which have nothing to do with console division.

On the other hand microsoft did 3BILLION dollars net profit

Same error here. MS console division sure enough is in the red. Sales of Windows and Office have nothing to do with consoles.

and nintendo did $715 million still more than sony...

Only this one could be true, but then again, it takes handheld into account ... They are still consoles, but not the type we're talking here, so not very useful to compare to PS3 and XBox360.

So lets see microsoft is a big daddy because of all its other business so it doesnt have to worry about losses really to get the consoles out the door

You got to be kidding ! Your simplified view of a plubicly traded company is bizarre. If a division loses money for too long a time, you can be sure MS has to worry of how to justify it to shareholders (and they do).

and sony with it's entertainment connections and electronics and all that other stuff still didnt manage to pull off as much profit as little nintendo did in 2006

But don't compare apples and oranges. Most of the Nintendo profit is not from the Gamecube though. But Gamecube related sales more than paid for the development of the Wii.

It all boils down to titles

donotreply@osnews.com (Phloptical) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:21:00 GMT

As long as Sony can hook in the developer base that they had before, they can bury both Nintendo and MS as they did with the PS2.

Sure the PS3 is nothing but hype at this point...I'm sure it's buggy, as every PS's 1st Rev has been. The release titles are basically a whole lot of nuthin', and I've read there's problems playing some PS2 games, which is unforgivable. IMO, if there's any feature that should have been brought to market at 100%, you'd think it would be backwards compatibility with the older software given the lack of proper titles at release.

As for the competition, the Xbox's biggest problem stems from the fact that it is Microsoft. People may be forced to them for an OS, but there's already choice with consoles. Yeah, I know...Linux and Mac....but neither of which can combine for 1/4 of the Windows user base, unfortunately.

For Sony to succeed they need a couple of really great titles that are PS3 specific. The next GTA should be PS3 only for a year or more, like in the past....not a dual-release, which is the rumor I've heard. If Sony starts conceeding dual-release titles against MS, then I believe it's a very slippery slope they'll be soon headed down.

RE: idiots

donotreply@osnews.com (Priest) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:43:00 GMT

"The 360 is estimated to be loosing about 50-100$ per console at this point, with further cost cuts inline in 2007 to bring it to profit per console"

Actually, I think the more recent figures from iSuppli say the cost of the Xbox 360 premium system is in the ballpark of $323 leaving them with ~$75 of profit per console (source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061116-8239.html)

There are no numbers for the core 360, and the same article says the PS3 takes a loss of $306 for the basic model and $241 for the premium system.

Not surprisingly, MS seems to have gotten it right the second time around.

RE[2]: Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (cg0def) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:49:00 GMT

ha ... man do you even know what you are talking about? The PS3 JUST came out and as such it is expected that games are still barely tapping the hardware. Remember the first XBOX360 games? It took developers about 6 months to release anything worth buying. So I'd say Sony is in a way better position. Oh and consider the fact that Xbox got discontinued about 3 years after it was released ( actually less than that ) while PS2 has been around for what seems like forever. I really fail to see how MS would manage to keep it's position now that they have real competition. Especially since MS does nothing in order to improve the quality of the games that get released.

RE[3]: UMD

donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:33:00 GMT

No, because if UMB were mass produced, it would cost at max $2-$5 for the media, and around $50-$80 for the drive itself.

RE[4]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (eMagius) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:59:00 GMT

I realize it's attractive to blame everything on xenophobia (particularly given that it is so rampant in the West), but that's not the case with the 360 in Japan. Western fast food giants like McDonalds and Burger King absolutely dominate Japan. Apple's products outsell Sony's many times over. Lee jeans, despite being priced much higher, have sales that wipe the floor with local brands. Pretty much anything with American connotations will sell superbly in Japan at the expense of local brands. Microsoft's first console, the MSX, actually did well in Japan (it wasn't even a blip on the radar in the US).

However, Microsoft just dropped the Xbox in Japan with zero support. They'd release very few games, and what were released were titles like Buffy the Vampire Slayer: two years late and entirely untranslated. MS just didn't care about moving the Xbox in Japan.

Now, they've done a better job with the 360 -- games don't come out quite as late and they're usually translated. At the same time, the support is still very shoddy compared to that in the US, and 3rd party support (outside of Capcom) is negligible. Moreover, in the US, the 360 is driven almost entirely by its First Person Shooters and that's just not a genre the Japanese enjoy.

We'll see how Microsoft handles things in the coming years. They've still got a chance.

RE[3]: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (MollyC) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:02:00 GMT

Microsoft has GTA too. So Sony is down to just MGS and FF. And Halo is the bigger franchise than either of those (look at recent sales).*

And if you don't thing Gears is a system seller, you've got a big surprise coming.

Also, so far multiplatform titles are better on 360 (e.g. COD3). The Unreal Engine itself, which many games will be based on, runs better on 360, supposedly due to 360's better use of RAM (360 has 512MB shared RAM, while PS3 has 256MB general RAM and 256MB video RAM; and 360's "OS" takes less than half the amount of RAM that the PS3's does).

*I couldn't care less about Japan.Edited 2006-11-23 18:05

RE[2]: The way I see it

donotreply@osnews.com (santana) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:21:00 GMT

"NO IT CAN NOT BE A GENERAL PURPOSE PC... atleast not a good one, stop believing sony FUD,

The Cell processor is an In-Order Executive Processor, with NO branch prediction, in other words, its highly in-efficient and much slower at general processing than any other desktop processor, and on top of that its technically only got 1 single general purpose core."

Uhmmm, yes, it CAN be a general purpose PC, as can be clearly seen on the net, with several people installing full Fedora 5 on it. Search YouTube, and see for yourself (you don't have to trust Sony "FUD", if you actually know what that means)

Yes, it's PPE (which is PPC derivate) it is in order processor, yes it is not as good with branching code as out of order processors, however, from first (clearly Cell unoptimised) benchmarks, it is 3 times slower than AMD4400+ (dual core 2.2 Ghz with 1Mb cache per processor), or about the same speed as G5 1.6Ghz. Last time I checked, 1.6 GHz G5 was quite usable and capable general purpose PC.

Apart from that, SPEs WILL be utilised for at least some Linux code, especially in media processing. For guest OSes there are 6 SPEs avaiable, and I'm sure some guys will put them to good use very soon.

RE[3]: Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (eMagius) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:21:00 GMT

Slightly OT:

And as for now, playing games over an online network works well enough. Otherwise we would not have thousands of WoW players and i never had any lag issues with Counterstrike: Source on my favourite servers as well.

It really depends on the game. Online chess tolerates seconds of latency. WoW tolerates half-seconds. Counterstrike tolerates tenths of seconds. All of the above tolerate latency much better than 2D fighters like Super Street Fighter II Turbo can. And coding can only help so much. For example, SSF2T requires two-way response times of under 1/60th of a second for tournament play (at the default (slow) speed): that's a maximum of 1500 miles if you had a point to point connection that offered communication at the speed of light (in a vacuum). Given the host-to-host speed of the internet, that's only a few hundred miles of separation between players at best for playable gameplay. It's even worse if you need to connect to a common server.

With fast paced games like SSF2T, you'd be lucky to have a lag-free game with someone halfway across the state, let alone halway across the country. Turn up the speed to more common levels and you'd be lucky to be able to play someone across the city.

RE[2]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:22:00 GMT

PSP is not Sony's idea, it's been done many times before, and the Nintendo Gameboy system is much more popular.

RE[4]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:25:00 GMT

Japanese companies don't attempt to dump and extract money out of other countries? That explains the lack of japanese electronics and automobiles in North America. Thanks for clearing that up

RE: The way I see it

donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:28:00 GMT

the PS3 is barely more powerful, cpu and graphics wise, and network wise, MS have thier act together. as far as running other OS's, MS is in that business already, no reason for them to encourage alternative OS's on MS hardware.

RE[4]: Lost opportunity

donotreply@osnews.com (Finalzone) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:11:00 GMT

All of the above tolerate latency much better than 2D fighters like Super Street Fighter II Turbo can. And coding can only help so much.

How about 3D fighting game like Tekken or Virtua Fighter. The latter is well-known to heavily rely on framerate.

The Price is a joke

donotreply@osnews.com (Bit_Rapist) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:24:00 GMT

The system looks "OK" but along with the xbox 360 its just too damn expensive.

I buy game machines primarily for playing games, and a 5-600 dollar price tag just looks crazy for an item that largely will be used to play video games in my living room.

It can run linux, thats neat. It has a blueray drive, thats neat too but I'm not purchasing a playstation for either of those features. I'd be buying one to do what the console is marketed to do - play games -

When it comes to the target market for the PS3, the price is high and the games lineup is weak - its the same games we have been playing since 1994 with newer graphics. Thats it. There is no innovation here, its more of the same at ever higher prices.

Sorry but I'm not buying. Its the first next gen console I'll be passing up.

RE[3]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (rayiner) — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:50:00 GMT

Nobody is buying XBox games in Japan is because Microsoft's support for the region has been terrible. Poor translations (or no translations), poor marketing, poor emphasis on locally-popular genres, etc.

There have been arguments that the Japanese market is insular, and just doesn't want to buy an American product, but that's a ridiculous argument. The Japanese buy up American products (and American culture in general) very readily.

RE[5]: The lack of a message

donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:27:00 GMT

"I realize it's attractive to blame everything on xenophobia"

I don't see how preferring your local brands over foreign ones is xenophobia. I actually think that is a good thing.
Good points otherwise though.

RE: PS3 will win

donotreply@osnews.com (the__dude) — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 04:28:00 GMT

This is why I believe PS3 will win:
A huge fan base. 111 Million.
98% bc with ps1-ps2 games (a catalog of (insert large number here) of games).
You can install Linux on it.
You can use PSP with it.
Better games.
-----------

Nintendo had a huge fan base at one point but saw that slip away after blundering with the N64.

Yes, B/C will be very nice and is a good selling point for the PS3.

I highly doubt the average gamer could care less that you can install Linux on the PS3.

I dont think PSP functionality is going to make a big difference. Heck, the PSP isnt even doing that well so it would make it rather hard to promote the PSP aspects of the PS3 when the PSP is being ignored as people flock to the DS.

Better games? Sure the tech demos looked great from a few years ago, but then again, I would expect pre rendered cut scenes to look great. To declare the PS3 as better in the games department at this point in time is just plain ignorent, IMO.

My pick on a winner? Japan - Wii, North America/Europe - XBox 360, with the Wii taking second place.

Regardless of who "wins", I dont think its going to be like last gen where the PS2 was by far the market leader. This time around theres going to be much more competition between the consoles

RE[2]: idiots

donotreply@osnews.com (PlatformAgnostic) — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 04:39:00 GMT

I think you have Microsoft wrong. If they have a division that actually produces products, then they keep it going despite the losses until they finally succeed. If they let accountability to shareholders get in their way, then MSN would be long gone, rather than now being "Live". This is part of the reason for their success.

RE[2]: PS3 will win

donotreply@osnews.com (konrad) — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 07:56:00 GMT

"Better games? Sure the tech demos looked great from a few years ago, but then again, I would expect pre rendered cut scenes to look great."

Better games has absolutely nothing to do with better graphics. As Nintendo, Sony has a large support from Game studios in Japan. Plus that Sony's in house development studios are lot better (innovation, Story telling) than Microsoft's.

Heck, the PSP isnt even doing that well so it would make it rather hard to promote the PSP aspects of the PS3 when the PSP is being ignored as people flock to the DS.

You are aware of that PSP has a larger user base than Xbox360?

I agree with Phil Harrison, the console that will sell most units during this holiday season is a Playstation, Playstaion 2.

XBOX360 fails in Japan

donotreply@osnews.com (Valhalla) — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:12:00 GMT

Japanese console sales 2006, source: http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm

(note that these are units SOLD)

Playstation 3
13-19 November: 42,099
Total sales 2006: 123,738

Playstation 2
13-19 November: 15,068
Total sales 2006: 1,247,989

XBox360
13-19 November: 4,050
Total sales 2006: 99,443

Playstation 3 has already sold more total than XBox360. Xbox360 will never do well in Japan. and if history shows us anything, it's that Japan is the number 1 decisive market when it comes to console/handheld success or failure.

going back to the NES days, every console that has emerged victorious in Japan have gone on to dominate the western markets. despite competitors having a head start and substantial market share. my guess is that this will prove the case yet again. given the extremely poor XBox360 sales in Japan, practically no third party games will be developed for the Japanese market. that leaves only those Japanese companies with a strong western presence developing for the XBox360, and of those, all the major ones are focusing on the PS3.

RE: Re: I think i see it ....

donotreply@osnews.com (aliquis) — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:57:00 GMT

The Wii launch titles are good but where does PS3 fall short? And I don't doubt it will become a great system, and I don't think it's more expensive than the xbox360 considering probably better hardware, bluraydrive, free online gaming, ..

You can't compare the amount of games of a one year old system compared to a brand new one, wait one year and you'll see which one is the better comparing PS3 THEN to xbox360 NOW.

I won't get one thought, if I would buy one system it would be the Wii but I already got the cube and ds so.. I'll wait until you can pirate / prices has fallen considerably.

RE[2]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (aliquis) — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:58:00 GMT

Also of course the xbox360 doesn't even come with a hdmi output... Even more it doesn't support 1080p.

RE[2]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (aliquis) — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:01:00 GMT

Yeah, the xbox360 is/was said to have had a worse launch with less units sold than the original xbox, and the original xbox got no brand reckognition and wasn't the first one which came out. Go figure. Also the original one have only sold around 25 million units or so.

RE[3]: What does xbox have that ps3 doesn't

donotreply@osnews.com (brown_rm) — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:27:00 GMT

Minor correction. GTA IV is not a PS3 exclusive. It is being released on PS3 and XBox360 at the same time.

RE: It all boils down to titles

donotreply@osnews.com (brown_rm) — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:55:00 GMT

"The next GTA should be PS3 only for a year or more, like in the past....not a dual-release, which is the rumor I've heard."

It isn't a "rumor". This is the official press release from Take-Two themselves.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=195754

RE[3]: Some home truths -

donotreply@osnews.com (stabilep) — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:18:00 GMT

I think what people are forgetting is that Sony really never had a serious compeitor to the market. When the PS2 came out it came out earlier then the Xbox. I guess you could say the Dreamcast but there was so many issues with that at the time that it never had a chance to become a viable competitor to the Sony PS2. Also when the Xbox came out Sony has made a huge success with the PS1 and having the PS2 borrow heavily from the PS1 success only helped. MS only purpose with the Xbox was simply to penetrate the market and show that they can make a better console then Sony which they succeeded in.

The 360 has a good chance at overcoming gthe PS3 though. If anything its cheaper and does graphics just as well as the PS3. This is something Sony has not had to face yet really. The PS2 was not threatened by the Xbox at all it had already secured the market by the time the Xbox and GC came out. And the original PS1 succeeded against the Saturn which was an admitted failure by even Sega and the N64 which was a great system that got hobbled with a cartridge which proved to be a great bottleneck.

Now its a whole new ball game. What used to matter really doesn't anymore. Nintendo with its Wii pretty much threw out all preconceived notions of how to make a next gen console and is currently enjoying a huge launch success and media parade. The 360 has been out for a year and is steadily growing. It has graphics that seem to match the PS3 and a library of games that are slowly getting better.

So what does the PS3 bring to the table that people want? I guess you can say a BluRay player but with the market uncertain on who will win that format war I doubt it. U|3ber technology? The only people who care are the people who argue about it on forums. Linux? thats like what? 0.5% maybe less of people who care if their video game system can install linux. 1080p? Again how many people have a TV that can do that? In fact its actually bad considering if your TV cannot do that or 720p you may get screwed and stuck with 480p resolution despite if your TV can support 1080i apparently 1080i < 720p/480p

The only thing it has going for it right now is FF/MGS/Backwards Compatiability (Maybe? how many people do not own a PS2 but own a PS3?)

it will be an interesting year to say the least.