Groklaw has an article arguing that Microsoft has not yet complied with the DOJ order that users must be able to remove Internet Explorer from Windows. “So he explained the blue and white screens of death, what a dual boot startup is, commingling code, and then tying or bundling, specifically tying Internet Explorer with the operating system. He explained how you can’t use Add/Remove to get IE or Media Player off your hard drive, but that you can use SPAD, ‘set program access and defaults’, to choose Firefox or another browser as your default browser instead of IE. However, IE remains on your hard drive.”
MSHTML engine — it’s used by more than just IE.
‘Nuff said.
The engine doesn’t call into the application, it uses libraries.
You could still remove IE, yet leave the libs for those programs that really need it. (gameshadow.com relies on their system to xslt soap data…)
’nuff said.
So people like you should quit whining, delete iexplore.exe from both Program Files and the dllcache, and feel good that you have “rid” yourself of the evil that is IE.
Except you haven’t. You’ve just deleted its shell wrapper.
Not to mention all the programs that tightly rely on IE. You cannot even use QuickBooks if you upgrade to IE7, so what are the chances QuickBooks isn’t going to fail if you out right remove the thing. Same goes for many other programs, that have bad programmers relying on tools they shouldn’t.
MSHTML engine — it’s used by more than just IE.
True, but not the ie application. I have programs on my pc that depend on gnome libraries, but that doesn’t mean I need all of gnome installed, just the libraries.
MS would be able to allow removal of internet explorer without removing all the MSHTML/trident libs. Perhaps a better example is that firefox needs the netscape/mozilla gecko rendering engine, but that doesn’t mean I need all of netscape/seamonkey installed for firefox to work
But there are plenty of apps out there that rely on IE, not the IE Component, so removing IE but not the IE libs would still be an compatibility desaster.
Sounds to me like either those are some very poorly written apps (embedding applications instead of libraries), or MS has done a piss-poor job of marketing/exposing the IE component causing people to write piss-poor applications that embed other apps instead of libaries/components.
MSHTML engine — it’s used by more than just IE.
Khtml is used by more than just Konqueror but you could replace it without a problem (in fact a project to embed Gecko in KDE has been started twice). The reason there is no real replacement is that Khtml isn’t a huge source of security holes and millions of dollars in damages.
In addition the requirement iirc wasn’t even about the engine for its inadequacy but about IE the all-in-one package. MS uses its html engine to thwart competitors by making it incompatible with standards but without its wrapping it can’t be used as browser.
You’d think Microsoft would allow the uninstallation of the most security compromised component of the operating system.
Edited 2007-01-11 17:19
Except that it’s probably the most heavily used application shipped with the OS as well… and Microsoft knows that their “flavor” of the internet is still in the majority, thus somewhat maintaining their OS marketshare with the circular dependency between must-have applications and the OS that they run on.
Face it – these days an OS without a browser is… n’t even considered a viable OS
OTOH, I agree with you that it should definitely be more modularized with an option to remove it – or at least remove everything except the shared components. I simply remove the IE icon from my desktop and start menu after installing firefox – although that certainly doesn’t prevent some ill-minded software from launching it indirectly (MSN messenger for example used to do this even if IE wasn’t your default browser – maybe it still does – I wouldn’t know)
although that certainly doesn’t prevent some ill-minded software from launching it indirectly (MSN messenger for example used to do this even if IE wasn’t your default browser – maybe it still does – I wouldn’t know)
You’re right about that one; no matter what I do, it still launches Internet Explorer, even though I have explicitly stated that I want Firefox to be used.
Not only must they do what you mentioned, but ensure that programmers, both Microsoft and third parties, actually make the correct function calls to the system rather than hard coding for Internet Explorer to be loaded, irrespective of the default settings.
What if you boot off a linux livecd and delete iexplorer.exe?
Windows simply recreates iexplorer.exe
Nuke the entire thing from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
/slashdot
Beggar’s Nest will never be the same.
/Gate Captain Ergus
I was here
/Kilroy
lol
All is lost, Fenthik.
/Desther
“Windows simply recreates iexplorer.exe
“
May I ask a question? It’s because I really don’t know. I’ve got no “Windows” so I can’t have a look at it myself.
Is it IEXPLORER.EXE or IEXPLORE.EXE?
Seems that even since “Windows ’95” the good (TM) 8.3 filenames are still in use – even in “Vista”. Is it for backwards compatibility? 🙂
xdevhost:~ # ls /windows/C/Program Files/Internet Explorer/*.exe
/windows/C/Program Files/Internet Explorer/iedw.exe
/windows/C/Program Files/Internet Explorer/iexplore.exe
yes it’s iexplore.exe, my brains just copied the filename from the parent post
“yes it’s iexplore.exe, my brains just copied the filename from the parent post”
Wow… DOS filenames to forever in “Windows”! 🙂
Why change it to something that is different from what people are used to, and takes longer to type?
I applaud the fact that in Vista, the general folder structure is much simpler, with far fewer “Documents and Settings” style shell folders
“Why change it to something that is different from what people are used to, and takes longer to type?”
Erm… are you sure – type? Type in “Windows”? With the keyboard? Who types IEXPLORE.EXE? And where? And for what reason? Please show me some people who know what executable is associated with the “Internet Explorer”, or, to get it a bit more difficult, show me average “Windows” users who can tell the name of their web browser.
Addidionally, since “Windows ’95” there are no files and directories anymore, there are objects only. And object folders and file folders, uh…
“I applaud the fact that in Vista, the general folder structure is much simpler, with far fewer “Documents and Settings” style shell folders”
So users won’t save their documents to C:/WINDOWS/DESKOP/ anymore? Excellent! Finally a good idea, at least for the poor people who have to maintain “Vista” boxes. They know from where to backup before the usual re-install. 🙂
Edited 2007-01-11 23:34
Who types IEXPLORE.EXE?
I do, or nearly (you don’t need the .exe bit). With both firefox AND iexplore vying for default browser, and with icons for each in different locations on the desktop/start-menu on each computer, I just hit Win-R iexplore[enter]. or Win-r firefox[enter]. This is easily the fastest method when changing computers a lot.
Addidionally, since “Windows ’95” there are no files and directories anymore, there are objects only. And object folders and file folders, uh…
WTF. the same analogies apply. It is acceptable to talk about an NTFS directory (even if you mean a file folder). And what the hell is an object folder?
So users won’t save their documents to C:/WINDOWS/DESKOP/ anymore
That convention is nearlt (if not) 10 years old now. The frist development was to have:
(Win98? and NT4) c:windowsprofiles[username]desktop
then
(ME/XP)c:documents and settings[username]desktop
then
(Visa)c:users[username]desktop.
Now if you’re a sysadmin (or anyone using console tools), these small changes DO make a BIG difference to your quality of work.
“[…] I just hit Win-R iexplore[enter]. or Win-r firefox[enter]. This is easily the fastest method when changing computers a lot.”
You are to be considered a real “Windows” professional (not ment as insultive), because you even know “Win”-R. You’re doing things (i. e. pressing keys and key combinations) the average “Windows” user even does not know about.
“And what the hell is an object folder?”
I don’t know. Really. It was more than 10 years ago when “Windows ’95” was “new” and all the PC magazines topped each other why it is so great. The existance of files and directories (as they were known from DOS) was denied, instead only objects were supposed to exist. I can only tell you the german terms I remember: Dateiordner, Objektordner. Because I didn’t and don’t use any “Windows”, I can’t tell you what the MICROS~1 PR guys thought when claiming this… maybe, because there are only objects, the folder is an object, and if it’s not empty (so, containing other objects), it’s an object folder. But what’s the difference to a file folder then? Is it a directory? Hmmm… can’t remember the PR blah…
“The frist development was to have:
(Win98? and NT4) c:/windows/profiles/[username]/desktop
then
(ME/XP)c:/documents and settings/[username]/desktop
then
(Visa)c:/users/[username]/desktop.
Now if you’re a sysadmin (or anyone using console tools), these small changes DO make a BIG difference to your quality of work.”
I see the improvement. (I added / instead of backslash to the paths above because they seem to be removed.) The “Vista” solution saves time in typing and masquerading spaces which is great if you’re using console tools (as I usually do). At least the user’s files are not stored within the OS subtree.
I’ve really lost the point of this thread.
Must be why they cursed us with allowing space characters.
It doesn’t count actually.
iexplore executable is just “bootstrapper” for real IE.
To say, remove it, then type http:// URL in any “just Explorer” folder view in address bar – and you will be there, in real IE. It is just shell for windoze desktop system. If your system is slow enough, you can see even how IE buttons blinks (appear fo short moment) in that folder view pane:)
I might be wrong but are there still lots of bits of http://www.microsoft.com that refuse to work unless you are really running IE.
Then you get other (Non MS ) sites actively prompting you download IE 7 from MS.
I wish that I could bliz IE from all my systems but I have to keep one copy as I have to sumbit timesheets into some anaient applications using IE. No other browser (and I have tried lots) works.
Microsoft Lock at its best.
I would like someone from MS to explain why I actually need a browser on Server 2003? Its a server system for heavens sake… Not a desktop
Well, windows update works from IE (and IE only!!) so I guess that Server 2k3 would have update issues.
Why that? IE6 is a part of Win2K3. It is just running with a very (obnoxious) high security level.
My Win2K3 has IE7 installed besides K-Meleon and Firefox.
Personally I think relying on one particular browser engine is a major mistake. What Microsoft _should’ve_ done from the very beginning is: A plugin architecture allowing for several browser engines side by side (this plugin architecture actually exists), with the option of removing any of them. The OS it self should not have any kind of hardcoded dependency on MS HTML (nor a dependency on _any_ browser engine), but none-the-less explorer.exe does have such a dependency (even with IE7).
Oh I agree with you, but your arguments don’t sound good to Sharholders’ ears. Why should microsoft destroy IE’s main competitive advantage in the interests of interoperability?
microsoft.com uses a lot of ActiveX controls for their dynamic sites (Genuine Advantage, MS Update, Windows Update, Office Update, etc). As IE is the only browser that fully supports all of ActiveX, there are a lot of IE-only parts to their website (and unfortunately, to the www in general).
Yes, Microsoft is breaking the federal anti-trust law and getting away with it.
Contrary to what Groklaw says, the DOJ didn’t order MS to allow users to remove IE from Windows, only access to it. SPAD is in Windows because of the DOJ ruling. The final judgement talks about removing access, not code.
H. Starting at the earlier of the release of Service Pack 1 for Windows XP or 12 months
after the submission of this Final Judgment to the Court, Microsoft shall:
1. Allow end users (via a mechanism readily accessible from the desktop or Start
menu such as an Add/Remove icon) and OEMs (via standard preinstallation
kits) to enable or remove access to each Microsoft Middleware Product or
Non-Microsoft Middleware Product by (a) displaying or removing icons, short-
cuts, or menu entries on the desktop or Start menu, or anywhere else in a
Windows Operating System Product where a list of icons, shortcuts, or menu
entries for applications are generally displayed, except that Microsoft may
restrict the display of icons, shortcuts, or menu entries for any product in any
list of such icons, shortcuts, or menu entries specified in the Windows docu-
mentation as being limited to products that provide particular types of func-
tionality, provided that the restrictions are non-discriminatory with respect to
non-Microsoft and Microsoft products; and (b) enabling or disabling automatic
invocations pursuant to Section III.C.3 of this Final Judgment that are used to
launch Non-Microsoft Middleware Products or Microsoft Middleware Pro-ducts. The mechanism shall offer the end user a separate and unbiased choice
with respect to enabling or removing access (as described in this subsection
III.H.1) and altering default invocations (as described in the following
subsection III.H.2) with regard to each such Microsoft Middleware Product or
Non-Microsoft Middleware Product and may offer the end-user a separate and
unbiased choice of enabling or removing access and altering default configura-
tions as to all Microsoft Middleware Products as a group or all Non-Microsoft
Middleware Products as a group.
. Allow end users (via an unbiased mechanism readily available from the
desktop or Start menu), OEMs (via standard OEM preinstallation kits), and
Non-Microsoft Middleware Products (via a mechanism which may, at
Microsoft’s option, require confirmation from the end user in an unbiased
manner) to designate a Non-Microsoft Middleware Product to be invoked in
place of that Microsoft Middleware Product (or vice versa) in any case where
the Windows Operating System Product would otherwise launch the Microsoft
Middleware Product in a separate Top-Level Window and display either (i) all
of the user interface elements or (ii) the Trademark of the Microsoft
Middleware Product.
http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/3/2/53239546-efee-460c-a58…
There are articles online from when SPAD was being implemented discussing changes made at the request of the DOJ. Also IE was allowed to stay because the benefit to consumers outweighed any anti-competitive effects to the market.
If SPAD actually worked, it would be ok.
If SPAD actually worked, it would be ok.
How do you know it doesn’t, and that his problems weren’t the fault of the Netgear application developers? Just because SPAD removes access doesn’t mean an app can’t go against best practices and fiddle with the registry, call the app directly, etc.
If an application can do that in order to access IE then SPAD doesn’t work.
If an application can do that in order to access IE then SPAD doesn’t work.
No, both SPAD and the Netgear app work fine. The app just appears to not be coded using best practices. If you’re running as admin, the app has the rights to make the change, or call into otherwise protected locations. Another issue is if there’s a bug in the registration code of the application that is using SPAD, you could have a situation as described in the article. Firefox has had its share of SPAD bugs.
Working with Set Program Access and Computer Defaults (SPAD)
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa969379.aspx
Can we honestly say that it’d be anything better than a Pyhrric victory at best?
I think they should concentrate fire on what are the terms on Microsoft deals with OEM’s instead. That is really where MS hurts alternatives. Also, in assuring all specs to build similar apps are kept open (at OS level).
Following this logic, Konqueror should not be the default browser/file manager of KDE and Amarok should not became the default media player (I know in the last case is easy to erase it from the system). The same can be said about some apps on OSX.
Bundling software just makes sense on a very competitive market and can be viewed as a good thing for customers, as far as the above conditions are respected.
And before anyone starts to scream I must be a MS shill, lets just say I’m a Linux/FreeBSD/KDE user that helps a fair amount of people to move away from Microsoft products when this is possible with little to no loss or where it actually presents gains.
Bingo.
It’s not what’s default that’s the issue – it’s not being able to remove it from the system.
In OS X you can drag Safari to the trash and it’s gone.
In KDE, you should be able to remove Konqueror via Synaptic (correct me, I’m not a Linux user)
In Windows, you’re out of luck.
Yes, you can completely remove Konqueror from KDE and use any other browser/file manager you like
If you would like to use them system package manager to remove konqueror you end up removing KDE kdebase (on all systems I know). That is the same as remove KDE on any practical sense.
Fact is, on any system, be it Windows, Linux, OSX or *BSD (that is pretty much what I have experience with), there is a certain level of granularity you should pick when building your system and creating your packages or you will get a huge list of options that will be a nightmare to manage and then would lose its usefulness.
So, if people insist to get this level of control they should be prepared to pay a price on it (on cost and manageability/usuability). For now could be just IE and MP on Windows, but as the system evolve what could happen? “Hey, I also would like to remove any file associated to Windows Firewall! And don’t forget about those related to System Update! Also, no extra drivers should be kept on my main storage device!”. If you have installed nay Linux/*BSD on detailed mode you already know what I’m talking about. I think you got the idea.
f you would like to use them system package manager to remove konqueror you end up removing KDE kdebase (on all systems I know). That is the same as remove KDE on any practical sense.
No, removing the meta package kdebase (e.g. as a result of removing one of its dependencies) does not even come close to removing KDE as a whole.
All other programs and libraries which are dependencies of kdebase will still remain installed.
Unless of course you are using a system with weird KDE packages, but then it is an artifical dependency problem
Depends on your system. The official packaging of KDE is in large packages: kdelibs, kdebase, kdenetwork, kdegraphics, kdeutils, etc.
Some OSes (like FreeBSD) use these packages as they are bundled by the KDE Project, so you can’t remove individual apps.
Some OSes (like Debian) break these down into a bazillion little packages for (each individual) libraries and (each individual) application, with meta-packages to install everything in one easy shot.
Some like the first method, others prefer the second. But not everyone uses the same method for packaging mega-apps like KDE (or GNOME, or XFCE, etc).
You’re just exaggerating!
A browser is a browser, everybody knows what a browser is and so everybody is able to choose his browser of choice.
That’s different to system drivers, etc.
It could be true that KDE is built heavily around Konqueror, but you can install a full Gnome or XFCE desktop without having a browser.
Normally, the user shouldn’t care about, if there is some unused tool more or less installed on his PC. But IE, … well, IE is the biggest security hole ever invented for the PC..
Safari is still a “shell” around WebKit — which you don’t want to remove unless you want a non-working OS X system.
> Safari is still a “shell” around WebKit — which you
> don’t want to remove unless you want a non-working OS X
> system.
And what if I want to remove WebKit too and still want a usable system? Apple should stop bundling so much software with their OS and then even bolt it so deeply into the OS that everything stops working if I just want to remove it.
(sarcasm off now… just to show the level of argumentation when it comes to Windows and IE)
The problem is that the market isn’t very competitive at all. Who owns 90%+ percent of the OS market? Who owns 80%+ of the browser market?
The problem is not whether you bundle stuff, the problem is that you bundle stuff that stifles competition when you are a monopoly.
That does not apply to Apple, Linux, BSD, or anybody else. Therefore, the target is absolutely correct.
Also, before everybody starts splitting hairs, I did not research my percentages at all, but the point is still valid AND there are multiple correct “targets” when it comes to Microsoft.
Edited 2007-01-11 22:32
While not being able to actually remove IE is tough on producers of alternative browsers, it’s hardly the end of the world. On my work PC (Win 2k) I can set another browser to be the default and, hey, Windows respects that.
What about the other DEs out there? Can I remove Konquerer from KDE (I’ve not tried – Firefox is my default but Konq loads whenever I click to do a bug report from KDE – it’s annoying but happens so rarely I can live with it)? Could I install Gnome without Galleon?
Simon
Edited 2007-01-11 17:49
Windows respects that? MSN certainly doesn’t, and I’m certain there’s many more MS apps that call iexplore directly instead of the shellOpen API (which would use the default browser). Even with an alternative default browser, IE still persists in popping up it’s freakish head now and again.
Windows respects that? MSN certainly doesn’t, and I’m certain there’s many more MS apps that call iexplore directly instead of the shellOpen API (which would use the default browser). Even with an alternative default browser, IE still persists in popping up it’s freakish head now and again.
Yes, and it annoys the living daylights out of me. I use MSN Messenger, and every time someone sens me an email to my Hotmail account and I click the mailbox icon on Messenger, the horrid interface of IE7 pops up. Why can;t it just load Firefox, darnit?
I don’t care if IE is on my Vista install or not, but I do want it to respect my default settings.
It’s why I use an alternative MSNs like: aMSN, Gaim or Miranda. They don’t open a Internet Explorer but your default browser.
I went one better and switched to a Mac with Adium
OK that’s your experience. I don’t use MSN, nor do I open links from MS Office, etc. The only thing I use IE for is developing web sites (we sell to UK schools so IE compatibility is king, however much I’d like it to be otherwise) and Windows Update.
At home I use linux, which is an altogether happier experience :o)
On my work PC (Win 2k) I can set another browser to be the default and, hey, Windows respects that.
As others have said, this is not always the case.
The converse, and perhaps even worse problem is when websites require IE but launch the default browser. For example, if you click Check for updates in Microsoft Visual Studio, it launches Firefox (my default) and then immediately the website gives an error about not using IE. It’s an instant redirect to an error page, so I can’t even launch IE to get to the site because I don’t know the URL! So there is two levels of idiocy here, one being the IE-only website, and the other being that they don’t launch IE if they know they need it.
By the way, to set the default browser in KDE, go into the control panel, then go to “Components -> Components chooser -> Web browser” and check “The following browser”, and type in “firefox”.
I’m pretty sure you can remove konqueror entirely if your distribution packages it separately (like Debian does http://packages.debian.org/unstable/web/konqueror )
Edited 2007-01-11 18:56
Web sites requiring IE is a pain in the hole, tis true. I’ve spent years banging the drum to get my company make our sites properly cross-browser/platform.
However, other than Microsoft’s web sites, I’d call that the web site developers’s problem, not Microsoft’s.
Cheers for the KDE tip, I’ll have a play with it.
“I can set another browser to be the default and, hey, Windows respects that.”
Maybe in your limited use of Windows, but if you’d read the article it mentions a case where an application completely ignores the users’ request.
As for DEs, I’ve got Gnome installed but not Epiphany.
I have Amaya, Konq., Firefox and Opera. (S’no point having two comparable GRE powered browsers to test with)
Wouldn’t that suggest it’s the programs fault? Not Windows.
Maybe in your limited use of Windows
You’ve hit the nail of the head, there. My use of Windows is as limited as possible :o)
Yes, you can install Gnome without Galeon, and without Epiphany – or for that matter without Firefox or Seamonkey or without whatever browzer you don’t want.
“What about the other DEs out there? Can I remove Konquerer from KDE (I’ve not tried – Firefox is my default but Konq loads whenever I click to do a bug report from KDE – it’s annoying but happens so rarely I can live with it)? Could I install Gnome without Galleon?”
No you can’t. It is no different then IE in Windows in that respect. They are tied to the DE and must be installed for the DE to work.
Actually, I do believe that you can remove Konqueror from KDE, and Galeon from Gnome (or rather, Epiphany).
“Actually, I do believe that you can remove Konqueror from KDE, and Galeon from Gnome (or rather, Epiphany).”
I would love to know how. When I try this it removes kdebase making kde not useable. Epiphany removes gnomelibs making Gnome unuseable. At least it did this on Suse 10.2. I have not tried on other distros.
If I remember correctly, kdebase is a meta-package (on Ubuntu, anyway). Removing it has no effect on the actual installation – it is simply used to install all of the kdebase-* packages.
Checking things in Adept-Manager (the equivalent of Synaptic for Kubuntu), I see that if I remove Konqueror, all it removes are konq-related packages (konq-plugins, etc.) and a few meta-packages, but not the other packages that these meta-packages install. In other word, I can remove Konqueror and still keep a functioning KDE desktop (well, I’d have to install another file manager though, such as Krusader).
I also verified that I have libgnome2 installed, but I don’t have Epiphany (nor Galeon) installed, so this is perhaps an issue with Suse, but it isn’t for Ubuntu.
It is because Gnome and KDE has been compiled and configured that way on Suse 10.2
You could try to force an uninstallation of Konqueror or Epiphany without removing packages depending on Konqueror or Epiphany.
My gentoo system is running Gnome, and I don’t have Epiphany (nor Galeon (e.g. Epiphany with extensions)) installed. I have Firefox, but not Epiphany.
When I used Fedora Core back in 2004 (and early 2005) I had the same experiences as you (which is why I ditched binary distributions – they suck). But this is a distribution issue and not a KDE or Gnome issue. AFAIK gnomelibs do not depend on Epiphany, but the latter does depend on the former.
I believe LitePC can remove just about any part of XP you want to remove. check them out at litepc.com.
I have used their products in the past with great success.
Or try out nLite, which is free.
Why is it that no one sells PCs without windows, anyway? People should have an option to choose their OS when they buy the machine, not afterwards. The customer schould be aware that they are paying for windows, even if its preinstalled. I dont want IE and I dont want windows, and I dont want a windows version preinstalled, so I have to build the pc my self from scratch! How reasonable is that?? Its like buying a mp3 player with preinstalled music. Would you let the guy who built your house choose your bedsheets? I think not!
Why is it that no one sells PCs without windows, anyway?
Uh, plenty of companies sell PCs without Windows, including the largest of them all, Dell. You just don’t save money by buying a PC without Windows (which makes sense–OEM licenses from Microsoft cost less than what Dell receives in kickbacks from installing all the malware on its PCs).
Have you actually tried to buy a computer with another OS pre-installed?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open_pc/
I already noted that you’ll get a worse deal if you don’t want Windows (see the “craplets” story for more on the rationale). It’s still pretty easy to purchase Windows-free machines.
<off topic>
I’ve just been investigating on the dell site and came across this:
http://offsetdesign.co.uk/static/prod.gif
pretty funny.
</off topic>
We buy n-series Dells here and get about $100 discount compared to regular Dells with Windows included. I’m not sure if Dell sells n-series to consumers.
The n-series includes Freedos. We replace it with linux before use.
“Uh, plenty of companies sell PCs without Windows, including the largest of them all, Dell.”
I’ve just ordered a Dell laptop online (well not really), I can choose Windows XP MC or Windows XP Pro.
No option to buy the Dell laptop without O.S.
I can tell from firsthand experience that NEC sells machines that are freeloaded with FreeDOS, nothing else. A shop I worked at for a bit installed their volume license of WinXP on it. I don’t know if they require that the costumer has a volume license, or that you can leave it with FreeDOS or linux as well. I suppose that Dell sells OS-less pc’s as well, but they might restrict them to larger businesses.
“I can tell from firsthand experience that NEC sells machines that are freeloaded with FreeDOS, nothing else. A shop I worked at for a bit installed their volume license of WinXP on it.”
Ermm..volume licensing allows for those licenses to be used to upgrade existing copies of windows. That is an example of pirating, by installing a volume license on a machine that there is no windows license for.
Hmmz, I wasn’t aware of that. Bad bad employer, and they had relatively cheap educational licenses to begin with. I am not really knowledgeable about Microsoft licensing, but I’ve heard that figuring out licenses is an art an sich. It is a bit of a disappointment to hear they tricked the system, but they used a few more items of illegal software for convenience’s sake, so it doesn’t come completely as a surprise.
So your specific laptop wasn’t sold without Windows. What relevance does that have to what you quoted?
So your specific laptop wasn’t sold without Windows. What relevance does that have to what you quoted?
I guess, to argue that it’s actually hard to get a PC without Windows?
It isn’t difficult if you have independent whitebox resellers in town; they ought to be able to sell an “empty” PC. So it’s not as if you have to assemble the parts all by yourself if you don’t know how.
I buy at places like that, and/or I put the parts together myself; gives me exactly the PC I need and nothing less or more. No MS taxes paid here.
For Europeans, there’s also this Danish laptop manufacturer Zepto, that offers quality (it is reported) and OS-less laptops by default. (No I have no shares, so I won’t mention the website.
)
Life is still good for FLOSS users, it seems.
The whole “can’t remove IE” thing is just silly. Windows users usually don’t care, and if they do they ought to not use Windows at all. After all, Windows probably contains all sorts of stuff that we mortals don’t know about anyway.
“I guess, to argue that it’s actually hard to get a PC without Windows?”
Yeah and a single instance doesn’t do much for the argument.
But it *is* quite hard (or at least inconvenient) to get a laptop without Windows installed. Surely you won’t deny that?
No option to buy the Dell laptop without O.S.
Here’s a direct link: http://linux.dell.com/desktops.shtml
From there you can order Dell desktops with FreeDOS or Linux and notebooks with FreeDOS. The ones that come with FreeDOS are actually without an OS, you need to install FreeDOS yourself, it is provided but not installed.
Don’t most people who use Windows use it because it ships with Internet Explorer that allows you to visit any web site?
No. They use it because it’s a computer. And everyone knows what a computer looks like. It has a little Start button down at the bottom left, and… and… and…
What I did on a badly-spyware’d box that couldn’t be reformatted for political reasons was edit security settings for mshtml.dll, iexplore.exe, and a couple other files and deny all rights to everybody but the local admin account, and that just so I could remove the ACL settings if desired.
The IE files still exist, but it’s effectively gone from that machine and the spyware pop-ups are no more.
A different solution is to get the Sysinternals (Now part of MSDN) Autoruns tool. It allows pretty much complete control of all startup drivers, services, programs etc..
CCleaner does about the same thing but it didn’t help. If I’d had a copy of UBCD4Win at the time I might have gotten rid of the spyware, since the stuff couldn’t have run on startup and repaired itself then.
”
MSHTML engine — it’s used by more than just IE.
‘Nuff said.
”
Why not allow users to set Opera or KHTML or Gecko to be the mshtml.dll in Windows?
> Why not allow users to set Opera or KHTML or Gecko to
> be the mshtml.dll in Windows?
You are allowed to do so. Just delete mshtml.dll and copy Opera or KHTML in its place. Voilà, you have replaced it.
Hint: The long list of errors you’ll get is not an anti-Opera/KHTML security mechanism, but simply shows you that there is no standard API for HTML rendering engines.
You can replace the IE engine with the Gecko Active X control, it has API compatibility.
http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
Such “jolting” testimony.
seems microsoft isn’t able to install a clean uninstaller OR to separate the needed librarys from the application.
When I think of Linux, you can easily remove Firefox and so on, necessary librarys stay on your computer (but you can remove even them if you want xD).
And when I think of Apple, you can remove safari without any problems.
Why is the biggest software company in the world not able to do so, too?
I’ve read articles about Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs, and it allows you to install or not install any components you want including Internet Explorer and even DirectX. Kind of kills Microsoft’s whole “It’s impossible to remove IE” line when one of their own products lets you do just that.
For me I have no reason to uninstall IE. Some sites look better in IE than Firefox so I’m just as good keeping them both installed.
Then your contribution to this discussion can only ever be very limited.
has anyone tried this without removing entire KDE?
has anyone tried to remove proprietory software from ubuntu? or firefox 1.5 from ubuntu?
has anyone tried to remove ANY linux program that comes with distro? for that you need to know where the program is installed and how..
has anyone tried this without removing entire KDE?
Yes, and you can. Additionally, many distros are also pre-loaded with Firefox, so unlike Microsoft, they’re not shoving a browser on you from the get-go.
has anyone tried to remove proprietory software from ubuntu? or firefox 1.5 from ubuntu?
Errrr yes.
has anyone tried to remove ANY linux program that comes with distro? for that you need to know where the program is installed and how..
Yer. It’s a highly complex process of going right into your package manager and deselecting it.
Feeble try. Small wonder your average score is in the red.
Not an ubuntu user but I believe you run some graphical tool off the start menu, scroll, select, “firefox”, then click the, “remove”, button. You do have to find the menu button, look in the left corner of your desktop.
For gentoo type emerge –unmerge mozilla-firefox at a shell prompt.
please check out linux from source. there is no in arguing that linux is *not* modular.
Browser: Palm680/RC1 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D053; Blazer/4.5) 16;320×320
Good idea, best place for that is linux from scratch: http://linuxfromscratch.org
i promise you…. that will remove internet explorer from you system!
So IE stays there and uses up a whopping, what, 20 megs of space?
If you dont like it, install opera/firefox/kmellon/blah.
//So IE stays there and uses up a whopping, what, 20 megs of space?
If you dont like it, install opera/firefox/kmellon/blah.//
This doesn’t help you. IE is stll on your system, and you are still vulnerable to it’s myriad security weaknesses.
Then don’t run windows.
Why does this topic keep getting whipped to death? If you don’t like IE, don’t use it. If you don’t like Firefox, don’t use it. If you don’t like any software, DONT USE IT. I just really don’t see how hard this is………….
Who would want to remove ie, the most used web browser, off the most popular OS? millions of people know they can run firefox,opera,etc, but they still choose to run ie.
millions of people know they can run firefox,opera,etc
And millions of people _are_ using Firefox, Opera etc
– and millions of people are complaining about the missing option of completely uninstalling IE 
/*And millions of people _are_ using Firefox, Opera etc
– and millions of people are complaining about the missing option of completely uninstalling IE 
*/
if what you say is true can you explain why there are more users using ie, then the users of opera,firefix combined.
Easily. It comes bundled with Windows. And most Windows users don’t know about Firefox, Opera or other browsers – and some of those that do are _afraid_ of “messing” with their systems – or they think it cannot be better than IE6. Even when they complain about IE they don’t switch – they are the kind of users that think IE equals the internet and OE equals mails.
/* Easily. It comes bundled with Windows. And most Windows users don’t know about Firefox, Opera or other browsers – and some of those that do are _afraid_ of “messing” with their systems – or they think it cannot be better than IE6. Even when they complain about IE they don’t switch – they are the kind of users that think IE equals the internet and OE equals mails*/
those are nice opinions you have there, but the fact is ie is stll being used more then the other browsers combined.
those are nice opinions you have there, but the fact is ie is stll being used more then the other browsers combined.
You could have just said “la la la I can’t hear you” and it would have been basically the same response…you were given very good arguments as to why IE is still in a dominant position (inertia, fear and lack of awareness, mostly). If you’re going to casually dismiss them, you should at least give counter-arguments, otherwise it makes you look like just another MS fanboy.
And more people drive Ford, but do you honestly believe it’s better than a BMW?
Btw, your argument is can be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_popularity
Interestingly enough, what you’re arguing against is wrong for the exact same reason.
And millions of people _are_ using Firefox, Opera etc
– and millions of people are complaining about the missing option of completely uninstalling IE 
I don’t know about millions complaining–just the sort that spend way too much time on OSNews/Slashdot/etc.
Considering Windows has something like one billion users worldwide it’s not to much to say that we have millions of people complaining.
Besides that… ars.userfrienly.org is a much better place to “waste” your time
(apart from http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx and http://www.go-mono.com/docs/ naturally)
I think we have to accept the fact that even though you bought it, if you have Windows on your PC, it’s not your computer anymore. It belongs to Microsoft and they can do anything they want with it.
Or, if that is unacceptable to them, see if Linux or Mac OSX can be a solution.
But first:
– people have to be *aware* their control over their PC is being taken away from them
– they have to make a *decision* whether or not the situation is acceptable to them
– they have to decide to actually *act* and consider alternatives
– they have to *evaluate* those alternatives
– and, if satisfied with an alternative solution, they have to actually *implement* that solution
1. Awareness
2. Decision
3. Action
4. Evaluation
5. Implementation
When there are problems with any of these steps, people stick with Windows, even though it may not necessarily be the best solution for them.
Edited 2007-01-12 09:54
I personally want IE on my installation CD. It’s the BEST firefox/opera downloading program I ever used.
Well, the point some people seem to miss is that, even if my preference is to use Firefox, several configuration tools or programs can opt to use explorer instead of my preferred default browser. It will also ask to set Internet Explorer as the standard browser again.
It’s like when I used to ride with a car of brand Y and now I’m driving a car of brand X, and each time I stop at a fuel station there’s this guy who followed me with my former car, then asks ‘are you sure you don’t want to ride with your car of brand Y? Just hop in’.
There’s a saying about stupidity and malice. Only problem is, Microsoft is not stupid
Since MS owns the closed win OS and HTML/CSS are open standards, NS had no long term competitive position anyway. NS paid lip service to GNU/Linux, but actually did little develop or push it as an MS alternative in the mass-market.
I suspect that Google will emerge as the new Netscape as a developer of apps that will drive Win-V uptake while paying lip service to GNU/Linux. It does seem that MS likes to play monopoly games though:
http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/4632
The US-DoJ works for the present administration, and the present administration works for msft.
The US-DoJ works for the present administration, and the present administration works for msft.
Then explain why they are monitoring every change Microsoft makes to their OS, and explain why Net Neutrality went down in flames even though MS was a supporter.
>>Then explain why they are monitoring every change Microsoft makes to their OS<<
They may “monitor” but they don’t do a damn thing. Msft was caught dead-to-rights bald face lying to the US-DoJ, any punishment? No, of course not.
Msft was caught abusing their monopoloy position. What is msft punishment? Msft gets “monitored.” BFD.
Msft was caught abusing their monopoloy position. What is msft punishment? Msft gets “monitored.” BFD.
You should actually read the transcripts and judgement as you’re simply wrong.
Something happened to IE7 on my Windows partition and I wasn’t able to download updates from Windows update since the browser was broken. Integration definitely comes with a price in terms of robustness. I ended up having to downgrade to IE6 so I could reinstall IE 7 so I could then update to the latest security updates. Now if Firefox had been allowed to work with Windows Update then I could have fixed the problem easily.
geeeeeee….. [irony]that is so unexpected
[/irony]
i mean, lets face it.. MS owns US administration and courts… so what is the point? .. We are guilty coz we agree to those terms.. and buy windows… (not me) but majority… until it will be legal to shoot majority
we will unfortunatly have to live by their rules/laws!!!…..