http://www.osnews.com/story/17102/Internet_Explorer_8_in_the_Works Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2012, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Wed, 15 Feb 2012 09:21:19 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://www.osnews.com/thread?207074 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207074 Shame they survey only IE7 users, should survey the poor bastards who try and produce pages it can render correctly. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207085 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207085 A new "slippery primate" script engine... and "Hot Canine" theme now the default and feel Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Milo_Hoffman) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207095 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207095 Just one thing:
Compliance to W3C standards. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (amadensor) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207102 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207102 Just cut off its it's head and fill its mouth with salt already. Or drive a wooden stake through it. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TomB7) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207109 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207109 I've had no problems making pages looking good in IE7, if a make a page and it looks fine in Firefox then it looks fine in IE7... now if I could just forget that IE6 exists I would be happy. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (eggs) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207115 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207115 We are starting to get on top of the many many pages that don't render peoperly in IE7 then along comes IE8. Just like London Busses.
If MS want to do the right thing then please just make it W3C Compliant. totally 100% Compliant. Not some Microsoft derivative of the W3C Standard.
No fancy gimicks, eye candy.
Please Microsoft, for once do the right thing and do not evil and adopt the standards you are so often quoting. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (shotsman) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207118 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207118 Amen to that!

So long as we don't have to start importing a CSS file for IE5.5, IE6, IE7 and the soon to be IE8. Just fix the browser, even if it means breaking things to become a better browser, just give people enough time to do it, and do it.

Timeline: March 1st, Survey Ends. March 2nd, IE8 released and pushed out to clients. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Finchwizard) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207123 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207123 I'd like to take the survey and to be a beta tester. How can I do that?

Go IE8! Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Joe User) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207127 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207127 Requested feature for IE8: don't be so evil. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ari-free) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207128 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207128 well, first you will have to sign this long form so that you sell your soul to the devil...otherwise it's easy! Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ari-free) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207129 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207129 1) Tighter integration with OS kernel
2) More extensions to HTML & CSS
3) Product activation
4) Vista only releaseBrowser: Opera/8.01 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/3.0.6636/1558; en; U; ssr) Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (A.H.) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207132 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207132 IE team wrote in their blog that the so called W3C standards are just not standards and everybody forgets that the Acid2 test is just a wishlist.
I think IE8 won't be Acid2 or "W3C compliant", whatever.
The other browsers are the same - certainly IE is the worst one.
And when i do my work sometimes i feel this whole XHTML-CSS bubble is a joke.Edited 2007-01-29 22:29 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mono) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207139 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207139 Tried it myself, still didn't get relative positioning in CSS2. Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Sphinx) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207182 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207182 Counter with number of people actually browsing Your computer. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (vermaden) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207220 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207220 Quoted from http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/microsoft-on-standards.html
with Rob quoting from an old Microsoft memo:

Our mission is to establish Microsoft's platforms as the de facto standards throughout the computer industry. Our enemies are the vendors of platforms that compete with ours: Netscape, Sun, IBM, Oracle, Lotus, etc. The field of battle is the software industry. Success is measured in shipping applications. Every line of code that is written to our standards is a small victory; every line of code that is written to any other standard, is a small defeat. Total victory, for DRG [Developer Relations Group], is the universal adoption of our standards by developers, as this is an important step towards total victory for Microsoft itself: 'A computer on every desk and in every home, running Microsoft software.'

Think they've changed ? Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Beta) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207233 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207233 One thing I really really want in IE8 (heck, back-port it to IE7 please) is to be able to do this

.themeName.myButton { background:red; }
.otherTheme.myButton { background:blue; }

Red
Blue Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (iTorrey) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207236 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207236 A Linux Version? Maybe a Mac Version? How about a version that will run on versions of Windows before XP or Vista?

Holy crap.... Look, there are 1, 2 and soon 3 browsers that fit that Wish list.

So... remember the old joke.. "If OS Makers made cars?"

So... who has the car that only drives on a limited number of roads? Who has the car you can't open the hood to and tinker around in?

So... who would want such a crippled piece of software?

It's not enterprise ready, it isn't fully ISO compliant. It's not ready for modern users, it can't be used by everyone, and doesn't run on mobile devices which are the newest "thing".

Face it... Microsoft is a dying breed. All of the major software players are starting to recognize that being adaptive, and standard compliant is the way to go.

PDF is becoming an ISO Standard. Oracle, IBM DB2, Java... all run on multiple platforms, and are Enterprise ready. Microsoft has broken their .doc backwards compatibility to most users who don't realize they can save in other formats, more people are looking at ODF because of this.... and likewise, support for it is running rampant... People want Document Longevity.

No one wants to put all their fish in one bucket anymore. It makes sense from the consumer point of view to use standards where they can. The standard will be there long after the vendor is gone.

The only thing keeping Microsoft afloat is Billions of dollars, vendor lock-in and license renewals. (Vista Upgrades included) Their per-capita new sales are decreasing because their competitors are adopting new software that doesn't need Windows to run.

It may be happening slowly... but it's happening. I 'm probably talking out my ass right now,..but watch. A few years down the road.. maybe 10... maybe 15... it will happen and Microsoft will become just another somebody in a world of somebodies. The will be another Novell, Sun, Oracle, IBM, etc, rather than THE somebody.

Society is reshaping, Bill gates has it right... it's going to be software as a service, but vendors will be fighting over who can provide the best service, at the right price. When this happens, Microsoft will have to compete with Verizon, AT&T, Time Warner, and companies who have been selling services for years. Google sees this, Apple Sees this (iTunes... iPhone), Sun sees this (Java as the platform for the service vendors, anything as the client -- OpenSolaris), IBM Sees this, (DB2, Notes, etc at the backend, Linux, Windows, whatever as the client)

In the end it will probably be this....
IBM -> AIX/Linux/Etc -> Notes -> DB2 -> Linux
MS -> MSN Live -> IIS/MS SQL/Exchange -> Windows
SUN -> Some Database -> JavaWebServer -> Open Solaris
Google -> Whatever they're using -> Google Apps -> Web Browser on any platform
Novell/Redhat/etc -> LAMP? -> OSS Apps -> Linux
Apple -> Probably MySQL -> iLife/OAMP -> OS X

Just some examples... some parts might be mismatched, but I think you get the basic idea. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous Coward) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207237 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207237 Wow... I got pretty far Off topic... Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous Coward) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207251 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207251 Following well-established recommendations: is that too much to ask? It's a pain that they couldn't care less of the W3C "standards". As a web developer, it's quite tempting to lock THEM out of a site.

That said, it's quite futile to enforce standards when the W3C is merely a recommendations forum. You could argue that the W3c is trying to push their own de facto standard. Yet, while I am not in favour of legislation, perhaps something should be done when a monopoly is putting an halt to interoperability (and development) willingfully. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 03:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Wrawrat) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207260 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207260 //Just one thing:
Compliance to W3C standards.//

Agreed. CSS support, passing the acid2 test would be good.

SVG support would also be most welcome. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (hal2k1) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207278 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207278 That should not be the responsibility of CSS itself...I don't know how it's implemented in other frameworks, but in asp.net this can be accomplished much more elegantly by using master pages. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jayson.knight) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207327 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207327 Maybe it's my fault, but according to the W3C css validator at[1] and the W3C markup validator[2], the css snipplet of the grand parent poster is valid CSS[3] and the useage of the style definitions within a xhtml transitional 1.0 document is also valid.

It is nice, that one can achieve such styling techniques with higher level frameworks, but the main point of css is, that styling should be framework/plattform independent and should work for static and dynamically generated content alike.

So, yes: My feature request list for IE8 is

- at least 90%+ conformity to CSS 2.0/2.1
- SVG support (need this badly!)
- Make XForms a first class citizen of IE7 and conform
to the w3c official standard
- MathML support without third party plugin would also
be very nice

or in short: Make it a 21st century browser.

[1] http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
[2] http://validator.w3.org/
[3] http://tinyurl.com/2ox32hEdited 2007-01-30 11:15 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (h times nue equals e) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207334 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207334 I think microsoft should also consider opinion of Firefox users who have switched loyalties from IE to firefox why they did so ?? TO make a better browser .
Further they should at least think abt releasing some of their software to Linux if they could do deal with Novell(???) maybe they cud do this ???


Ambuj varshney(http://linuxondesktop.blogspot.com) Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ambuj123) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207347 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207347 ...and a handful of other things. Basically, what they managed to make me do with IE7 is exactly what I feared: having to write yet another conditional comment to include a special ie7.css. Thanks for making my life more interesting, Microsoft. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (wirespot) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207352 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207352 Here's what you all should do to finally put IE out of its misery: A nice page for Firefox/Safari/Opera; redirect to a "Yahoo vintage 1995" HTML-only page if you detect IE. It would elimate a lot of headaches for you and your users, and would send a strong hint to MSFT. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TomB7) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207367 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207367 Requested feature for IE8: don't be so evil.

Requested feature for Microsoft generally, surely? Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tristan) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207373 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207373 I've been hearing that one a lot from people hell bent on using IE and only developing for IE.

However, their is an air of truth in that though. The W3C only presents recommendations for the way things should be done. However, forgetting semantics, if the majority of browsers are following the W3C recommendations then that is the standard by which all browsers should strive to follow.

Not to sound to much like a Microsoft basher, but we all know that Microsoft doesn't like to follow any standard other than its own. Its whole business model is based on locking users into its products and formats. IE is will be no different. However, IE 7 is much better than previous versions when it comes to rendering standard compliant pages. Not perfect or as good as other by any means, but better than it was. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (systyrant) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207374 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207374 "Think they've changed ?"

Sure they have, but I doubt much from that philosophy. Their methods have change, but the goal remains the same.

"A computer on every desk and in every home, running Microsoft software." Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (systyrant) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207378 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207378 Not that I don't agree with your sentiment, but do that would only serve to drive business away from your site. The one inevitable truth is that the end user isn't going to blame IE when a site doesn't render correctly. They are just going to chalk it up to being a bad site.

Of course I suppose you could always post a message telling them that due to IE's lack of compliance with the W3C recommendations that you, as the developer, are forced to send them to a lesser page on your site. Then add links and recommend they use Firefox or Opera or whatever browser you choose. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (systyrant) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207382 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207382 ie8 needs a javascript engine without so many memory leaks. not to mention its overall performance is pitiful compared to spidermonkey. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alucinor) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207383 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207383 something also tells me that ie8 won't justify a major version number increase, but it'll be more like a 7.5 -- a few new standards implemented, nothing more.

it's in MS's best interest for the browser NOT to become a platform still, unless of course it's for pages relying on proprietary extensions (now coming in the form of Win Presentation Foundation /E). Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alucinor) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207386 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207386 >I've had no problems making pages looking good in IE7

I sure have. Pages that work perfectly in FF 1.5, FF 2.X, and IE6 are screwed up in IE7. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (walterbyrd) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207387 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207387 1) Make it faster. IE7 is painfully slow on long pages. Think /. articles with hundreds of posts.

2) Javascript JIT compiler. With the current AJAX fad, Javascript code needs to run much, much faster. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jo42) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207389 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207389 >>Think they've [msft] changed ?

According to very recent filing, by msft, in the Comes v Microsoft case:

"OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market...." Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (walterbyrd) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207396 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207396 I'd like the same thing from Firefox, Opera, Safari and Konqueror. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (sappyvcv) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207403 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207403 Well almost, only the routemasters have been retired and no one needs to worry about them anymore... Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (anonymousbrowser) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207437 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207437 The problems show when you use Internet Explorer only for testing, and don't develop to widely supported standards.

That is the lock-in techs in IE ( active X and different handling of content when compared to certain various standards ). This is why some web-sites require Internet Explorer, thereby Windows ( or WINE / Crossover with IE on Linux, or sometimes Opera can spoof it properly ).

IE7 is an improvement in this area compared to IE6, which was pretty awful at standards compliance. This means, now, that IE7 will have the same issues as Firefox ( and IE8 will as well, most likely ) because Microsoft's failure to adhere to standards while developing earlier versions of IE.

They have set some web-sites behind because they now have to tweak their sites again to detect for the old-way, the new-way, and then, finally, the correct-way ( hopefully ).

Many sites do not worry about the 'small' audience they are losing, and normally assume they are running Windows XP with IE whatever, causing headaches ( some minor, some huge ) for visitors to those sites, simply because Microsoft wanted to take over the internet ( and did, but not for much longer will they dominate entirely ).

--The loon Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (looncraz) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207457 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207457 Too bad a few industry heavyweights dont all boycott IE for a week.

"if you would like to visit amazon.com, GM, Toyota, bestbuy walmart....and about 40 other sites you need to use firefox or any non ie browser."

IE usage would plummet and they would be forced to fix the problem (or become irrelevant)

It has to be major sites though and sure it could drive some business away but if you are an important enough site couple with other important sites you could simply force a good portion of the people over. Sure some people would get pissy about it, but oh well. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tweek) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207488 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207488 Interesting how fast IE development has changed. IIRC, originally, new IE releases would only happen when a new Windows OS was released.

Now imagine the quality level of Linux, Windows, and Mac if they were all competing, instead of the monopoly that exists today. Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ubit) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207590 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207590 1) Full CSS2
2) Jscript and a DOM that works according to W3C spec. (and that includes tables, dammit!)
3) XML Namespaces
4) XML Namespaces
5) Did I mention XML Namespaces?
6) XForms Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (FishB8) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread?207788 http://www.osnews.com/thread?207788 I think you would find more people getting pissy about it than you think.

Here's my thinking on the subject. People who use IE probably tend to be either an average user who doesn't really know about anything better or some die hard Microsoft fan. What sites like Amazon would be better off to do is place notices that this site is better viewed using [Insert Browser Here] than IE. This would draw attention to those other browsers and wouldn't particularly piss anybody off save the IE die hards.

To me the reality is that as long as IE comes with Windows, IE will always be the dominant browser simply because a lot of people are to lazy or have become to use to using IE.

Don't expect business to jump on one side or the other. They are in it for the money and that's it. It's people like me, who run small blog sites, that should be developing our websites to be compliant with W3C recommendation that are standard with most other browsers. I don't suggest going out of your way to block IE, but instead just let people know that your site complies with the W3C recommendation and that it works in browser that support that standard. Then simply list browsers that are compliant. The idea is that you inform your users that you believe IE to be a substandard browsers and that instead of reworking your site you chose to support what you believe to be a know standard for all browsers. Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (systyrant) Comments