OSNews:

OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/18114/Microsoft_Flip-Flops_on_Virtualization Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:06:25 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif OSNews.com http://www.osnews.com lame http://osnews.com/thread?249374 http://osnews.com/thread?249374 that just sux. plain and simple. thanks MS Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (poundsmack) Comments There it is... http://osnews.com/thread?249375 http://osnews.com/thread?249375 There's that "freedom to innovate" we keep hearing about from Microsoft! Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fretinator) Comments RE: There it is... http://osnews.com/thread?249379 http://osnews.com/thread?249379 I'm wondering if this is true, since the ability to virtualize more versions of Windows was touted at TechEd... and the article that OSNews is pointing us to isn't citing a source.

If so, well, meh. This can only hurt them, and if they want to limit potential Windows sales, I'm sure nobody on this site will be complaining.Edited 2007-06-20 20:41 Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments Thanks MS http://osnews.com/thread?249385 http://osnews.com/thread?249385 Amen, Vista should be more expensive, more crippled, have more restriction on usage, more DRM...

... only then MS might loose his grip on PC makers.

Vista lasted 2 months on my new laptop. XP is back. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ikshaar) Comments Sleazy http://osnews.com/thread?249386 http://osnews.com/thread?249386 This is what you get from a despicable company, selling low quality software. Vista is trash! Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Supreme Dragon) Comments RE[2]: There it is... http://osnews.com/thread?249388 http://osnews.com/thread?249388 Well, I'm one who uses virtualization to do Windows development. I use Parallels to run Windows XP under Linux. FOr now, it doesn't matter since I don't need to run Vista. But at some point I will and I would like to not have to buy the business version (price). I am sure Microsoft's answer is to buy MSDN. If I remember right, the versions of Vista (basic, etc) you download with an MSDN subscription CAN be run virtually. Unfortunately, that's more money I can't afford to spend. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fretinator) Comments Software or licence limitation? http://osnews.com/thread?249393 http://osnews.com/thread?249393 I am not familiar with this issue; is it a software limitation (e.g. the OS refuses to run) or solely a legal one (e.g. the EULA)?

If this is the latter, I'm not sure many people interested in virtualization will really care, even though it breaks their licence... especially if they bought a legit copy of Vista Home! Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Wrawrat) Comments And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249400 http://osnews.com/thread?249400 Just run one of the Vista home editions in a virtual machine anyway. It's not as if Microsoft plays by the rules. Why should consumers? What!? Are they going to come knocking on your door to check your PC? Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (cmost) Comments Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249401 http://osnews.com/thread?249401 apple does the same thing... we can't run macos X in a virtual environnement Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (collinm) Comments RE: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249403 http://osnews.com/thread?249403

we can't run macos X in a virtual environnement

They go even further - you can't run it on _REAL_ hardware unless it came from Apple! Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fretinator) Comments RE: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249410 http://osnews.com/thread?249410 If you're a company then yes they may very well come knocking on your door and checking your PC. I know of several people who have worked for companies that have been raided by the BSA. If they find you're running Vista home under virtualization, against the license, it could end up costing you a fair chunk of change. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dagw) Comments RE[2]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249415 http://osnews.com/thread?249415 false

you can run it on many computer, just check google, a lot of people runned it Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (collinm) Comments RE[3]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249417 http://osnews.com/thread?249417

false

you can run it on many computer, just check google, a lot of people runned it

Legally?? Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fretinator) Comments RE[4]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249419 http://osnews.com/thread?249419 No... like running vista home edition...... Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (collinm) Comments RE[4]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249425 http://osnews.com/thread?249425 >> Legally?

In a lot of countries once you buy something, you get a contract between the reseller and you. Microsoft doesn't print its EULA onto the box (even its introduction would never pass onto the box) and no one may inject the contract between you and your reseller without the will of both sides as it might drive your right to use the product as specified in the original contract useless.

Ergo the EULA is powerless there and people installed their home edition legally.

Quite different to Microsoft's downloads - there the EULA is a real contract between you and MS.

It is a sane system and hopefully contries not having this will adopt it soon. Although Valve is right now pretty exploiting that system with its Steam ... Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dammage) Comments RE[2]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249431 http://osnews.com/thread?249431

"we can't run macos X in a virtual environnement

They go even further - you can't run it on _REAL_ hardware unless it came from Apple! "

Apple sell computers where the OS is just another component. Like Amiga used to. Like IBM still does with AIX and PSeries. Selling "the whole banana" as Jobs calls it. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tyr.) Comments RE: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249433 http://osnews.com/thread?249433

Just run one of the Vista home editions in a virtual machine anyway. It's not as if Microsoft plays by the rules. Why should consumers? What!? Are they going to come knocking on your door to check your PC?

Not consumers, it's corporations that are targeted. They need to license more expensive versions. And yes corporations can be audited to see if they comply with licensing terms.

"Microsoft to audit your company's software licenses" ( http://news.com.com/Microsoft+to+audit+your+companys+software+licen... )Edited 2007-06-20 22:52 UTC Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Tyr.) Comments RE[3]: There it is... http://osnews.com/thread?249435 http://osnews.com/thread?249435 There are no actual limitations in the software that prevent virtualization, it's just to be properly licensed you need to have Business or higher. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (CPUGuy) Comments RE: Software or licence limitation? http://osnews.com/thread?249436 http://osnews.com/thread?249436 Purely Eula Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (CPUGuy) Comments RE[2]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249442 http://osnews.com/thread?249442 Several years ago the city of Virginia Beach had to pay Microsoft $129,000.00 for being out of license compliance:

http://www.itworld.com/Man/2685/lw-12-vcontrol_2/

Microsoft and the Business Software Alliance are serious about piracy and making sure you are licensed for each installation of Microsoft products. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Robert Escue) Comments RE[3]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249451 http://osnews.com/thread?249451 "Apple sell computers where the OS is just another component. Like Amiga used to. Like IBM still does with AIX and PSeries. Selling "the whole banana" as Jobs calls it."

I had to translate this one into English so I could read it. Funny, it seemed to consist of English words, but it is in a different language.

Anyway, when I translated it, it said, they will not let you run MacOS in a virtual environment or on non-Apple branded hardware.

Hope that helps for you English speakers out there. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alcibiades) Comments Three things where a test case would be great http://osnews.com/thread?249452 http://osnews.com/thread?249452 It would be really nice to see a test case on whether these kind of post sales restrictions on use are valid in the EC. What we need to see tested in court is:-

Whether the prohibition on running OSX on non Apple hardware is enforceable.

Whether the prohibition on running Office on a different OS than Windows is enforceable/

Whether the prohibition on running Vista Home virtually is enforceable.

I suspect none of them are. Because of being post sale restrictions on use. But if anyone knows precedents, it would be interesting to see them. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alcibiades) Comments RE[3]: There it is... http://osnews.com/thread?249463 http://osnews.com/thread?249463 "But at some point I will and I would like to not have to buy the business version (price)."

You really should test on all available versions and editions of Windows.

"I am sure Microsoft's answer is to buy MSDN...Unfortunately, that's more money I can't afford to spend."

If you're doing any type of Windows development, an MSDN subscription should be built into your company's yearly budget...even if you're just a one man shop. It'll more than pay for itself in the long run. You can always use the trial versions of MS software (MS offers trial versions for all products in its portfolio) until then, which actually lend themselves very well to virtualization. Create baseline server images, and when the expiration is up, just go back to your baseline image and start over. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 02:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jayson.knight) Comments RE[2]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249471 http://osnews.com/thread?249471 Wouldn't one need a court approval and thus some level of proof, before they raid? Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (flanque) Comments RE: lame http://osnews.com/thread?249474 http://osnews.com/thread?249474 I wonder how they define a VM. For instance there's a VM in the sense of VMWare or VirtualPC, then there's containers in Solaris which is I supose virtual but not really.

Obviously Windows Vista cannot run on Solaris, but an x86 open operating system with the concept of containers could perhaps circumvent this?

Maybe I should get a degree in law. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (flanque) Comments RE[3]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249475 http://osnews.com/thread?249475 I would think that any site license would allow them to perform audits every once in a while, but I haven't read the site license myself. Even in that case, MS would be bound by the terms of the licensing agreement in how far their investigations could go.

As to someone who just has a standard home-bought Windows EULA, yeah, you'd need to go through the courts. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 05:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[3]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249500 http://osnews.com/thread?249500 "Wouldn't one need a court approval and thus some level of proof, before they raid?"

Yes, one would. Neither MS nor BSA is a law enforcement agency and thus cant enter your premises unless you allow them. If you refuse them access they need to get a court order and the cooperation of the police. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) Comments RE[4]: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?249509 http://osnews.com/thread?249509 He meant "Apple sells [...]", since Apple is a singular entity (a company). Hope that helps. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Spellcheck) Comments RE[3]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249511 http://osnews.com/thread?249511 In most cases it seems to be enough with a tipoff from a disgruntled employee. Also many licenses stipulate that you give the BSA right to check your computers for license violations whenever they feel like it. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dagw) Comments RE[4]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249514 http://osnews.com/thread?249514 "In most cases it seems to be enough with a tipoff from a disgruntled employee."

To get a court order? Perhaps. To give MS/BSA the right to enter your premises against your wishes? No.

"Also many licenses stipulate that you give the BSA right to check your computers for license violations whenever they feel like it."

If such a stipulation is at all legally valid in a license. Even if it is, it's not a legal matter but a contract matter so if you say they can't come in they can't. It would be trespassing unless they had a court order ordering you to let them in. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender) Comments RE[5]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249515 http://osnews.com/thread?249515 Yes, the distinction which people always fail to make in these threads between contract law and criminal law.

It is not illegal to break a contract, eg by doing something which your EULA forbids. The contract may or may not be enforceable.

It is illegal to drive when having drunk too much. Or steal.

They are quite different. One can get you arrested. The other can get you sued for damages. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (alcibiades) Comments RE[4]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249516 http://osnews.com/thread?249516 Maybe you do agree they can look at your computers, but I'd question on the methods permitted without your approval.

In other words, I may agree they can look but I don't agree they can enter the premises or agree on the method of inspecting.

I have my doubts on the legality of this. Even if it was legal, I could just refuse and be in breach of contract, but then what exactly does that allow the vendor to do from there? Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (flanque) Comments RE: Sleazy http://osnews.com/thread?249543 http://osnews.com/thread?249543 The restrictions on Vista Home in VMs has nothing to do with the quality of Vista, or MS in general. It may be a bad idea, but really, anybody running VMs is probably not going to run Home anyway, so what's the big deal.

If you weren't such an Anti-MS troll, you may figure out that it affects a very small percentage of users Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BluenoseJake) Comments RE[2]: Sleazy http://osnews.com/thread?249591 http://osnews.com/thread?249591 "The restrictions on Vista Home in VMs has nothing to do with the quality of Vista, or MS in general."

Wrong! An OS with unnecessary restrictions and an obvious lack of quality should be considered defective, and alternative products should be considered.

"It may be a bad idea, but really, anybody running VMs is probably not going to run Home anyway, so what's the big deal."

People should be able to use software they purchase the way they want to use it, not be restricted by an abusive monopolist.

"If you weren't such an Anti-MS troll, you may figure out that it affects a very small percentage of users"

It does not matter that it affects a small percentage of users, abusive restrictions should not be tolerated. This is just another reason to avoid MS software. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Supreme Dragon) Comments RE[5]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249694 http://osnews.com/thread?249694 I imagine the vendor could certainly sue you for licensing violations. They could probably then use the suit to make the courts allow them to inspect your computer systems as part of the disclosure. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dagw) Comments RE[6]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249703 http://osnews.com/thread?249703 What would they sue for? If it was to gain access to the premises then by the time it goes through the legal system you may have had enough time to remove any software violations.

I'd find it difficult to see how they win a monetary claim without proof of financial loss through software piracy. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (flanque) Comments RE[7]: And it matters how? http://osnews.com/thread?249727 http://osnews.com/thread?249727 To be honest I have no idea how it works legally. All I do is from the people who've been through it. According to them the first the company heard about it is when the BSA show up court order in hand and demand everybody step away from the keyboards. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dagw) Comments RE: Software or licence limitation? http://osnews.com/thread?250158 http://osnews.com/thread?250158 ... For now, it's EULA only.
That, until Microsoft decides to quietly install a WGA-like tool that will disable your updates/features or even the OS itself due to EULA violation. (Or even falsely suspected ones [1])

- Gilboa
[1] http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070124-8690.html Edited 2007-06-23 18:19 Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gilboa) Comments RE: Stop to complain... http://osnews.com/thread?250159 http://osnews.com/thread?250159 So, two wrongs make a right.
Gee, I didn't hear -that- argument for a while.
What's next? "MOM!!!! But Apple did it first! They started it!!!!"

Should I really point out how morally wrong (and childish) this argument is, or can we simply ignore your post and move along?

- Gilboa Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gilboa) Comments