OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/18392/SkyOS_Beta_6762_Released Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:04:21 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif OSNews.com http://www.osnews.com FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?260730 http://osnews.com/thread?260730 GPL code is not used in the kernel or libraries. GPL'ed apps are used and the sources are available (Bash, GCC, etc).

SkyOS also uses no BSD code. It does use a heavily modified OpenBFS which has an MIT license.

The appearence was the result of a contest here on OSNews a few years back. Yes, it hasn't aged well, and it will be modified before final release.

Robert prefers to keep SkyOS closed source. His choice.

If you don't like paying to beta test SkyOS, just don't use it. Don't complain. Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zizban) Comments RE: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?260735 http://osnews.com/thread?260735 If you don't like paying to beta test SkyOS, just don't use it. Don't complain.

Everything I've seen and heard about SkyOS, it seems like a really really really great OS, and I would like to beta test it ;) I just haven't had chance this far.. But yeah, it sure looks very pretty, even if the UI looks are a few years old! And the new Viewer..well, I just wish Nautilus would do the same!! As much as I like open-source I also do appreciate high-quality code and SkyOS seems to be the latter, all the way through ;) (Note: this may be a bit biased opinion since this is based on just the screenshot and -casts, no need to complain to me) Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (WereCatf) Comments RE: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?260744 http://osnews.com/thread?260744 I often find myself asking why it is that so many OSS users and coders seem to think that everything should be OSS. I mean, OSS is great, and I do think there is a great place in the computing world for it, but it cannot, or should not, be seen as a be all and end all.

I find that the best projects that use OSS are those that combine fine proprietary systems or programs with OSS foundations the way OS X does. I have yet to give SkyOS a try, but I can definitely see myself using a system like this in the future, and the fact that it is not Open Source does not bother me at all. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (iskios) Comments Amazing work http://osnews.com/thread?260756 http://osnews.com/thread?260756 Does anyone else find it stunning the progress made in such a short time, by such a tiny team?

This is shaping up into a genuinely usable desktop OS, not just a hobbyist project of interest to a small number of like-minded people. The aesthetics may be a touch dated now, but that's a small and easily fixed issue. The actual functionality and features of the OS are very impressive and modern.

Look at the huge development teams employed by large companies like Microsoft, and the time they often take just to implement tweaks and patches. Hard to believe that so much of a complex modern OS like Sky OS is created by just one man.

If you ever need evidence that size isn't everything... Sat, 04 Aug 2007 01:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Dave_K) Comments RE: Amazing work http://osnews.com/thread?260765 http://osnews.com/thread?260765 yep, no matter what your preference is regarding FOSS, there's no denying the rapid and impressive development of this alternate os. now, before captain obvious jumps in pointing out that alot of this code comes from other projects, yes that is true but even if you ignored all the code written specifically for Skyos you'd still have to acknowledge the skill and speed with which Robert ports software to his operating system.

even though I'm pro-open source, my passion for everything os related is much bigger and I really look forward to trying the upcoming livecd. again, impressive work! Sat, 04 Aug 2007 02:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Valhalla) Comments great stuff http://osnews.com/thread?260790 http://osnews.com/thread?260790 I'm SkyOs betatester...it's amazing how such a small team with closed source has managed to create alternative OS second to linux and BSD only. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 05:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kishe) Comments Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260793 http://osnews.com/thread?260793 That OS is using GPL and BSD code all over the place. The GUI is ugly and aged badly. Worst of all it's closed source, what the heck? And I have to pay for Beta, where can I send my complains?

Wait, what do you say? What FAQ? Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (chiwaw) Comments Using an OS like this; after some QA tool checks? http://osnews.com/thread?260796 http://osnews.com/thread?260796 Yes, turing-complete eye candy obviously had to look like this. ;)

I can imagine using an OS like this one which is not FOSS or even trolltech-licensed open stuff; just like a graphics card; but to use it for producing stuff I care about, rather than to print a conference pass or paying to wash my dog, I would want it to publicly pass some quality tests so I am not just putting another open e-mail relay out on the internet.

Similarly it is nice when one's ideas are used for the OS without so much delay, or profiteering, or giant DDR2 footprints. I might like rounds of micropayments to the contributors as I come to appreciate their work better, imagining that I too am profiteering by throwing in some work; but free is a kind of stopgap to that which entertains that the software itself profiteers, accruing to the astute literate person.

Even so; it would be nice if the Camtasia/VM was nailed to a Bogomips estimate. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (SteveNordquist) Comments RE: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260817 http://osnews.com/thread?260817 Honestly... whilst you are entitled to your ideals and opinions, why are you complaining? Nobody is forcing you to use SkyOS. Nobody is making you pay. And nobody wants to listen to you whining invalid complaints about something you have the _free_ _choice_ to stay away from. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (FreeGamer) Comments RE: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260822 http://osnews.com/thread?260822 That OS is using GPL and BSD code all over the place

If GPL code had been "all over the place" they'd have to open their sources to others, you know that? Or do you mean apps like wine, which are GPL but aren't actually part of the OS....

The GUI is ugly and aged badly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To my eye it looks just fine.

Worst of all it's closed source, what the heck?

So? Not everything has to be open-source to be of good quality >_> Something being open-source doesn't automatically make it perfect. I know quite a bunch of very poor quality open-source apps too. I do support open-source but I have no delusions about it.

And I have to pay for Beta, where can I send my complains?

And I have to pay for food? For any commercial linux distro? TV? Not everything is completely free, as in money. Deal with it. Besides, if you paid for the Beta now you would get the final release for free so it's not a bad idea IMHO. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (WereCatf) Comments RE: great stuff http://osnews.com/thread?260826 http://osnews.com/thread?260826 It has made great progress because it is a small team ! Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (mounty) Comments RE[2]: great stuff http://osnews.com/thread?260828 http://osnews.com/thread?260828 Then again, I've wondered what SkyOS would do if they took their near-finished OS and tried to get funding and a team for it. Szeleney may be a coding Superman, but I'm sure even he could use a team for the tedious or sticky parts. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments Easy to Port apps to... http://osnews.com/thread?260832 http://osnews.com/thread?260832 I used a beta a while back to port a GUI game library I made for PocketPCs. Using the SkyOS API and my library it was a fast port. I had the library and the game working in 3-4 days (including sound).

I can't recall my account, so I'll just order a newer copy. It's only $30 or so, plus I moved. Just think, when SkyOS goes gold, the people at my old house will receive a CD w/ SkyOS -- wonder what they'll do?

(update: I found my account info, thank goodness for archiving e-mails, heh)Edited 2007-08-04 13:24 Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ArcadeFX) Comments Pixel http://osnews.com/thread?260836 http://osnews.com/thread?260836 In case you're wondering what image editor is on that screenshot, it's Pixel http://www.kanzelsberger.com ... it's nice but SkyOS will need more recent version ;) Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Brmbolec) Comments RE[2]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260837 http://osnews.com/thread?260837 Why don't you look at: http://www.syllable.org/docs/developers/doxygen/gui/classos_1_1Stri...

and:
http://skyos.org/documents/skygi/html/class_sky_g_i_1_1_string.html


Now the syllable class has been around since AtheOS days, so does it not look like it is an exact copy?

Do you not see that Robert does use GPL code? Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (whomever) Comments RE[2]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?260838 http://osnews.com/thread?260838 There is no real benefit for the user in "proprietary". If the same software would be available in a proprietary fashion or free, as in speech, the latter would always be the better choice.


But it is not always the best choice, monitary wise, for the developer. It would probably be no good choice for Coca Cola to give away their formula to everyone.


That said, I can understand users who don't want to forego the additional rights and power free software gives to them, even if they have to live with reduced functionality. For example, it is perfectly reasonable to not run software you don't have full control of in general. And enforcing free software is in effect enforcing your own rights, as a user. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[3]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260843 http://osnews.com/thread?260843 "Now the syllable class has been around since AtheOS days, so does it not look like it is an exact copy?

Do you not see that Robert does use GPL code?"

The similarities between the various classes interfaces (and not just the ones you linked to) are really impressive. But that only proves, if anything, that Robert took inspiration from Syllable's api.

Of course, since we cannot see SkyOS's code, we can't tell if he also copied the implementation of the classes. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Jack Burton) Comments RE[3]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260851 http://osnews.com/thread?260851 Wow. I just randomly looked at like 5 or 6 classes with the same name and they are pretty much identical. At most one or two functions are changed.

You can argue that it's only the interface, but header files are copyrighted too. Even if you change the definitions you can't just take the header file for a fairly complicated class and copy it verbatim. Furthermore, if the header files are the same it's pretty likely that the implementations are the same too. Someone would have to compare disassembly to be sure though Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (averycfay) Comments My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260854 http://osnews.com/thread?260854 Yes they have made great progress but the main reason for that is they have no user base.

If they had a user base they would get a LOT more complaints about issues etc.

Also since it's be in bata status for the 4 or 5 years that I have noticed skyos, there is no release schedule or anything they spend a lot more time adding new features then fixing and stabilizing current features.

They have maybe a few thousand beta users (Me being one of them) who paid to beta test and have been waiting for 2 years or so for an actual release to come out.

Someone said this was not a hobby OS? I am sorry Ubuntu is not a hobby OS. They have a set release cycle, they have support, it can be used for business purposes etc.

Even PC BSD now has a release cycle, support and puts out actual releases.

Sky OS is cool but just like ReactOS it seems that it will always be beta and never actually become a useable OS with a regular release cycle, real support etc. I don't think Robert and crew really want to be in the business of supporting an OS with a growing user group etc. Providing support etc. Right now if something doesn't work, you submit a bug track and they get to it when they get to it. It's beta anyway. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Windows Sucks) Comments RE: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260858 http://osnews.com/thread?260858 Yes they have made great progress but the main reason for that is they have no user base.

If they had a user base they would get a LOT more complaints about issues etc.

That's why its not an open beta. Robert is only one man. Can you imagine the backlog of bug reports?

They have maybe a few thousand beta users (Me being one of them) who paid to beta test and have been waiting for 2 years or so for an actual release to come out.

Robert is only one man and he never promised a release date. Remember, he has a day job.

Someone said this was not a hobby OS? I am sorry Ubuntu is not a hobby OS. They have a set release cycle, they have support, it can be used for business purposes etc.

Even PC BSD now has a release cycle, support and puts out actual releases.

It is a hobby OS with the intention of becomming a retail OS someday. That's the goal Robert is working to,

Sky OS is cool but just like ReactOS it seems that it will always be beta and never actually become a useable OS with a regular release cycle, real support etc. I don't think Robert and crew really want to be in the business of supporting an OS with a growing user group etc. Providing support etc. Right now if something doesn't work, you submit a bug track and they get to it when they get to it. It's beta anyway.

How long have OSS oses been in Beta? Let's see, Syllable, years, Gnu HURD, decades. Reactos, years. SkyOS is hardly the only case of a long beta cycle.

Yes Robert gets to it when he can. So? Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zizban) Comments RE[2]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260860 http://osnews.com/thread?260860
Robert is only one man and he never promised a release date. Remember, he has a day job


Robert is only one man and he never promised a release date. Remember, he has a day job.


It is a hobby OS with the intention of becomming a retail OS someday. That's the goal Robert is working to,


How long have OSS oses been in Beta? Let's see, Syllable, years, Gnu HURD, decades. Reactos, years. SkyOS is hardly the only case of a long beta cycle.


Yes Robert gets to it when he can. So?


Hummmmm, you not making sense? You saying it's a hobby OS with the intention of becoming a retail OS? But in the same breath you say "Robert gets to it when he can" Which sounds like it will never be more then a hobby OS.

On top of that all the other OS's you named don't charge for beta testing saying that the fee you pay will go towards:

Download access to the newest beta version and all future beta versions including the final release

SkyOS Final as a downloadable ISO image once its available

But I guess that could be whenever or never. Maybe I should ask for a refund?

The funny thing is all those other OS's you named are just as useable as SKY and I dont have to pay a dime.

Anyway if anyone will ever take SKY serious maybe they need to take my beta money and hire some developers. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Windows Sucks) Comments SkyOS Beta 6763 Released http://osnews.com/thread?260867 http://osnews.com/thread?260867 FYI: SkyOS Beta 6763 was released today.
On some computers there was an issue with build 6762.

Downloading now ;) Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jello) Comments RE[2]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260870 http://osnews.com/thread?260870 @ WereCatf & FreeGamer

Jeez, you guys need a little help in the humor department. Read the very first post of the thread, then read mine again (to the last word) and realize I was goofing.

Seriously now, I'm really impressed by SkyOS, and wish I had lot more free time to jump in the project and contribute to it ... Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (chiwaw) Comments RE: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260883 http://osnews.com/thread?260883 Also since it's be in bata status for the 4 or 5 years that I have noticed skyos, there is no release schedule or anything they spend a lot more time adding new features then fixing and stabilizing current features.

SkyOS sticks to a release schedule of every two weeks. Those 280 bug fixes were done in the two weeks since the previous release, 6753. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[2]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260889 http://osnews.com/thread?260889 Not.

Looking at the release cycle it's random not every 2 weeks (At least builds that us beta testers have access to)

Also there are a lot of bug fixes in this one I admit. But normally new releases do not come out due to bug fixes but on a schedule based on new features.

I would like to see your every 2 week release schedule and when you can find it on their site? Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:42:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Windows Sucks) Comments RE: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?260891 http://osnews.com/thread?260891 If you don't like paying to beta test SkyOS, just don't use it. Don't complain.

Your comment sure sounds like you are replying to a complainer, but AFAICT yours is the very first. Maybe you are making a preemptive response based on previous complaints. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (KenJackson) Comments RE[3]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260892 http://osnews.com/thread?260892 You need to learn about smiley faces. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (KenJackson) Comments RE[3]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260893 http://osnews.com/thread?260893 From the front page:

http://www.skyos.org/?q=node/605

Read the 'future' section.

Sure, the average has been closer to 18-20 days since announcement, but that's quite close enough to their promised rate of two weeks for me. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[4]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260898 http://osnews.com/thread?260898 Dude where you reading? Please give us the correct info.

I don't see but 3 Beta releases for this whole year?

We are at week 31 of the year. That is not every two weeks by any stretch!

Now sometimes the put out releases to the Alpha teams but as a paid Beta tester I don't have access to them!

And the last couple of releases have been close together. But that is about it. if you read the news section or the Beta forum where you actually download the Betas you will see that your two week assessment is WAY off. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Windows Sucks) Comments RE[4]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260899 http://osnews.com/thread?260899 It's been in Beta for years and their is no sign that it's going to end with a release.

I paid and gave up...

It's a hobby OS, it's cool but it's getting nowhere.

I still think that Robert is doing a great job, but it's not enough for me. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (truckweb) Comments RE[5]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260903 http://osnews.com/thread?260903 I guarantee you that if you finish reading the SkyOS front page ( http://www.skyos.org ) you'll read the announcement. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[6]: My only problem. http://osnews.com/thread?260908 http://osnews.com/thread?260908 Dude, you can't read I guess.

Lets look at the ACTUAL release schedule.

From the front page:

SkyOS Beta 6762 Available for download
Fri, 2007-08-03 14:35

SkyOS Beta 6753 available for download
Thu, 2007-06-21 17:49

SkyOS Build 6669 available for download
Sat, 2006-11-18 15:30

I can go on and on. Now please let me see a different release schedule that shows 2 weeks or any where close.

We can even look here on OS news and see the same release schedule as I am quoting.

- SkyOS Beta 6762 Released - Posted on 2007-08-03
- SkyOS Gets a New Viewer - Posted on 2007-07-28
- SkyOS Beta Build-6753 Available - Posted on 2007-06-21
- SkyOS Gets New C++ API, LiveCD Status Update - Posted on 2007-05-07
- SkyOS Gets Java, Wine, ACPI, More - Posted on 2007-01-16
- SkyOS Team Promises 2007 Release - Posted on 2007-01-01
- SkyOS Gets Virtual Filesystem - Posted on 2006-12-05
- SkyOS Build 6669 Released - Posted on 2006-11-19
- Impact of DMA in SkyOS Examined - Posted on 2006-10-16
- SkyOS Gets DMA Support - Posted on 2006-10-12
- SkyOS Gets Printing Support - Posted on 2006-09-21
- SkyOS Gets USB Support - Posted on 2006-09-12
- SkyOS Beta Build 6179 Released - Posted on 2006-09-04
- SkyOS Gets WidgetGecko - Posted on 2006-08-07
- SkyOS Beta Build 6132 Released - Posted on 2006-07-27
- SkyOS Gets Desktop Compositing, People Files, More - Posted on 2006-07-11
- SkyOS PE to ELF Translation Nearing Completion, More - Posted on 2006-06-24
- SkyOS: GUI Changes, Desktop Composing - Posted on 2006-04-03
- SkyOS Beta Build 5550 Released - Posted on 2006-03-26

Way more new features then actual releases. This release had a bunch of fixes but that is not normal.

Please read first before you comment.

Thanks.Edited 2007-08-04 22:48 Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Windows Sucks) Comments RE[4]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260917 http://osnews.com/thread?260917 > You need to learn about smiley faces.

Smileys are like sitcom laugh tracks. I'm a fan of The Office and Arrested Dev myself. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (chiwaw) Comments It doesn' t matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?260924 http://osnews.com/thread?260924 It doesn't matter how many releases there are! The truth of the matter is that Robert uses GPL code and then he bunches it all together for a *beta release*

Lets look at: http://www.skyos.org/documents/ddk/html/example_viarhine_driver.htm...


Does that not just look like the linux driver? Look at some of the functions(viaNetReceive(), viaNetInterrupt()) and lets also look at the register names, don't they look familar?

Doesn't everyone see that as *great* as Robert is that he is without a doubt porting all this and pawning it off as his own. I for one will not stand for this! The GPL(and other licenses) are meant to protect the developer. I want to see copyrights on the code he uses and I want to see this code. That is only fair. If you are going to use someones code and it is OSS code then be a man and release it. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (whomever) Comments RE: It doesn' t matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?260930 http://osnews.com/thread?260930 There is nothing what you have said that demonstrates any violation of copyright. SkyOS is a mostly POSIX compliant OS, so of course a lot of headers and functions are going to be very similar in appearance and structure to those in Linux. It allows for easy porting of Linux/UNIX software, and being a small OS, ease of porting software from other platforms is going to be a major consideration. If you have actually got some hard evidence (eg you have disassembled the OS) that Robert has done something illegal or unethical, then by all means present it, but if you don't, then the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven beyond reasonable doubt should prevail, and you should refrain from making slanderous allegations with nothing more than idle supposition on your part to back them up. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Obscurus) Comments It's amazing that anyone ever tries anything http://osnews.com/thread?260934 http://osnews.com/thread?260934 With the amount of complaining, nit-picking & sheer mean-spiritedness that commenting systems such as this make available, it just amazes me that anyone like Robert even makes the attempt, let alone does such an incredible job.

The last I checked, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to purchase into the SkyOS beta program, nor is SkyOS being guaranteed to make periodic (every two weeks???? please.) releases.

If people don't want to partake, fine. Just please keep the nasty comments down to a dull roar.

My hat's off to Robert -- he's a coding machine! ;) I hope that all of his hard work eventually pays off for him, beyond the satisfaction of his own personal achievement. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (MissinBeOS) Comments Re: It doesn't matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?260936 http://osnews.com/thread?260936 Right... he came up with:

if (reg & (IntrRxErr | IntrRxDropped | IntrRxWakeUp | IntrRxEmpty | IntrRxNoBuf))

all by himself and it is just out of destiny that those are the same names that Donald Becker chose with his via driver.


I don't have hard evidence however if you look at my first point you can see that Robert's String class has the same header as the syllable one. It is an exact copy with the namespace changed. Do a diff on both of them. Coincidence? Did somehow he channel Kurt Skauen when writing that code? I think not. The same exact header.

Now lets also look at: http://skyos.org/documents/skygi/html/class_sky_g_i_1_1_rect.html

and:
http://www.syllable.org/docs/developers/doxygen/gui/classos_1_1Rect...


Don't they look quite similar? Especially DoIntersect????Edited 2007-08-05 01:03 Sun, 05 Aug 2007 01:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (whomever) Comments RE: Re: It doesn't matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?260953 http://osnews.com/thread?260953 No. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 03:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (zizban) Comments RE[3]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260963 http://osnews.com/thread?260963 It can be hard to detect irony on OSNews. No matter how obviously-absurd a statement is, there's a good chance that someone around here will sincerely agree with it. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 05:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (StephenBeDoper) Comments RE[4]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260964 http://osnews.com/thread?260964
But that only proves, if anything, that Robert took inspiration from Syllable's api.


It's also important to note that (IIRC), in turn, the Syllable/AtheOS API drew a large amount of inspiration from the BeOS API. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 05:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (StephenBeDoper) Comments RE[5]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260978 http://osnews.com/thread?260978 The AtheOS/Syllable API is very close to the BeOS API.
HaikuOS is an open source, MIT licenced BeOS clone.
Since HaikuOS is MIT licenced, it's code can be legally used in SkyOS.

And next to that. Designing a good API is difficult, and looking at how others done it, is a good thing to begin with. Having simular APIs makes porting applications between SkyOS, Syllable and BeOS/ZETA/HaikuOS easier, so I think there is not a bad thing to say about this, I think this is good.

But among people at this site, skyos-bashing just seems to be done, just because it's a closed source os.
Then I ask you this question: Does it matter for the end-user? Sun, 05 Aug 2007 08:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Andre) Comments RE[6]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260980 http://osnews.com/thread?260980 "But among people at this site, skyos-bashing just seems to be done, just because it's a closed source os.
Then I ask you this question: Does it matter for the end-user?"

If Robert has copied source, it's just as bad as if you or I copied SkyOS. I paid for my copy (a few years ago). Did you? Does it matter to the end-user if they have a legal copy or not? Sun, 05 Aug 2007 08:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BurningShadow) Comments RE[7]: Pfff ... http://osnews.com/thread?260981 http://osnews.com/thread?260981 I am a beta tester, I entered the skyos beta back at the beta 8.2 time.

As end-user, I expect a working product, and not want to worry about licences and stuff. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 08:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Andre) Comments RE: Re: It doesn't matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?260985 http://osnews.com/thread?260985 Appart from the fact that SkyOS and Syllable seem to use both Doxygen to produce their api documentation,

The two classes do NOT look the same at all.
Beside, please notice that :
1) Robert AND syllable might have looked for a MIT/BSD/whatever common source for inspiration (or not).
2) there aren't that many logical ways to implement a rectangle class as the operations you want to do on them (for a gui purpose).
And well, for gui purposes, I would expect to use "point ", "rect" names for variables.

About the via Rhine driver : a quick google search gave me these answers on this page
http://www.bebits.com/talkback/3266

Could the owner of the via-rhine driver entry please let me know the best way to contact them (your email address bounces back). I've rebuilt the driver from source and added the via-rhine.h entry discussed here, along with the entries for the via-tahoe cards from Bedriver, and it has helped my connections tremendously.

Thanks in advance,

mrmdls

Got in touch with Richard Houle today, he confirms his driver was released under the BSD license, so it's free to be used as we wish.



Looks to me that the via Rhyne driver you are talking about (is this the one ?) is BSD code...So, basically, you are spreading F.U.D. and making a dangerous kind of false accusations out of the blue.
And you might just have made them after having diffed things and googled a bit WITHOUT making a proper lookout for licence facts, a process that took you 2 minutes.

Well, IF the previous paragraph is true, I really want to kick you hard in the nuts.Edited 2007-08-05 09:41 Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Lakedaemon) Comments Congrats Robert http://osnews.com/thread?260987 http://osnews.com/thread?260987 I just read about your "inheritance"
(that's really a coder way to put it...I wonder if your child will have three heads and 4 pairs of arms too ^_^) and you survival trip.

Wow... it seems like a lot of fun is coming into the SkyOS world.

Congrats !
(and, next week, please don't eat poisonous mushrooms ^_^) Sun, 05 Aug 2007 10:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Lakedaemon) Comments Their website. http://osnews.com/thread?260989 http://osnews.com/thread?260989 Anyone know what's up with the skyos website? I keep gettign the "Server Default page" from Plesk.

Adam Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (adamk) Comments release schedule http://osnews.com/thread?261013 http://osnews.com/thread?261013 about the 2 weekly release schedule:

Robert only announced that with the previous release, current release is the first following that announcement.

Also on that subject, Robert mentioned something about it on the forums:
http://www.skyos.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=96566#96566 Edited 2007-08-05 14:03 UTC Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments RE: It doesn' t matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?261017 http://osnews.com/thread?261017 It doesn't matter how many releases of Unix there are! The truth of the matter is that AT&T uses GPL code and then bunches it all together.

Lets look at any driver for Sys V.

Does that not just look like the linux driver? Look at some of the functions(viaNetReceive(), viaNetInterrupt()) and lets also look at the register names, don't they look familar?

Doesn't everyone see that as *great* as AT&T is that it is without a doubt porting all this and pawning it off as its own. I for one will not stand for this! The GPL(and other licenses) are meant to protect the developer. I want to see copyrights on the code he uses and I want to see this code. That is only fair. If you are going to use someones code and it is OSS code then be a man and release it. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (KLU9) Comments Smaller Sky? http://osnews.com/thread?261023 http://osnews.com/thread?261023 So, I finally get around to downloading the new SkyOS test release... and I notice the file is much smaller than normal. About 200MB smaller than the last one I downloaded.

Why might this be? Was software removed, or was it just better compression techniques or something on the devs' part? Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[3]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261025 http://osnews.com/thread?261025 That said, I can understand users who don't want to forego the additional rights and power free software gives to them, even if they have to live with reduced functionality.

I prefer the benefit of a stable platform. Open source systems are constantly changing. There is no such thing as a standard platform you can rely on users having. Open source developers typically have little regard for the importance of binary compatibility.

As a software developer, you have to spend far more time than you should keeping up with the ever changing APIs. It doesn't matter if your new API is slightly better than your old one if it means I have to keep rewriting my code with each new release. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[2]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261026 http://osnews.com/thread?261026 Maybe you are making a preemptive response based on previous complaints.

I think that was the point of his post being titled "FAQ". Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[4]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261027 http://osnews.com/thread?261027 The "ever changing" APIs is a myth. Most even stone age programs still compile on new systems without any patch needed. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 15:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[4]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261063 http://osnews.com/thread?261063 No, not Open Source. Linux. L - I - N - U - X
Linux is Open Source. Open Source is not Linux.

Linux developers don't give a sh*t, but not all Open Source developers are like that.
Then have a look at Windows. A new API (on top of all the old ones) with ever release. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 18:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (BurningShadow) Comments RE: Their website. http://osnews.com/thread?261068 http://osnews.com/thread?261068 http://www.skyos.org/ loads fine here. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 18:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Andre) Comments RE: Their website. http://osnews.com/thread?261069 http://osnews.com/thread?261069
Anyone know what's up with the skyos website? I keep gettign the "Server Default page" from Plesk.

Adam

Yes, the problem is on your computer...

when the site was on the previous server, there was a DNS issue for some time, but that was fixed afterwards. As a remedy for the dns issue, you have probably put the IP address of the skyos server in your hosts file.

Since the site was recently moved to another server, this fix does not work any more and leads you to the wrong place.

You need to remove www.skyos.org from your hosts file. Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Darkness) Comments RE: It's amazing that anyone ever tries anything http://osnews.com/thread?261157 http://osnews.com/thread?261157 Agreed. Rather than making constructive criticisms it seems people would sooner resort to slander based on speculation. I really don't see how those kind of comments help anyone - be it the SkyOS or the OSS community.

Some people really need to grow up. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Laurence) Comments RE[5]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261180 http://osnews.com/thread?261180 Linux developers don't give a sh*t, but not all Open Source developers are like that.

Not all, but most. Including just about every big name in the community.

Then have a look at Windows. A new API (on top of all the old ones) with ever release.

How do you propose adding functionality without adding APIs to access it? The only drastic change since Win95 was .NET. Sure, driver APIs have had to change over time to handle drastic changes in hardware, but even those managed to stay stable from Win98 through XP (not sure if Vista does WDM). Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[5]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261181 http://osnews.com/thread?261181 The "ever changing" APIs is a myth. Most even stone age programs still compile on new systems without any patch needed.

Not true at all. You're only able to compile older apps if you load your system up with ancient versions of libraries. That's not API compatibility, that's just the ability for different APIs to coexist. Very big difference.

Let's also not forget the horrible disregard for binary compatibility on Linux. GCC alone breaks all binary compatibility every few releases. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[6]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261232 http://osnews.com/thread?261232 Your posting sounds ignorant to me. I got not the same impression than you, but still I know what I talk about, too. And to me it seems that most open source APIs stay compatible for a long time. Even if there occur changes, they are mostly minor ones and can easily patched.

Your post about binary compatibility is senseless. The disregard of it is anything else than "horrible". It doesn't matter. Next, gcc stays binary compatible a long, long, long time. It's only g++ that broke often recently.

On Windows I want binary compatibility, because I would need it! On a open source operating system it's nothing more than a hindrance to evolution of the software.

But now to go one step further: API/ABI compatibility on Windows as the outstanding proprietary platform to compare with, is horrible too -- talking about libraries! Most programs install their own version of the needed libs just exactly for this reason. And the mess goes so far that Windows has extra mechanisms builtin to restore overwritten librarys automatically!

Still, if some error is detected in a rather old lib from MS, like the wmf (?) image exploit last year, people start to find this lib is shipped with dozens of applications they would never dream of. This wouldn't happen on a open source system, apart from your "API incompatibility" most programs manage to use the system-wide libs instead of static linkage etc. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[7]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261256 http://osnews.com/thread?261256 Your post about binary compatibility is senseless. The disregard of it is anything else than "horrible". It doesn't matter. Next, gcc stays binary compatible a long, long, long time. It's only g++ that broke often recently.

I meant GCC in the GNU Compiler Collection sense, not in the C compiler sense. G++ breaks compatibility frequently. Once you get outside of x86, there tend to be a few platforms breaking binary compatibility with every release.

On Windows I want binary compatibility, because I would need it! On a open source operating system it's nothing more than a hindrance to evolution of the software.

I don't care about evolution of software. I want a stable platform to work on. It's not worth breaking things for every minor improvement.

Binary compatibility matters for all users. Source compatibility only matters for developers, who are vastly outnumbered by normal users. And it only matters as much as it does because a Linux system is hundreds of libraries with little to no coordination between the developers.

But now to go one step further: API/ABI compatibility on Windows as the outstanding proprietary platform to compare with, is horrible too -- talking about libraries! Most programs install their own version of the needed libs just exactly for this reason. And the mess goes so far that Windows has extra mechanisms builtin to restore overwritten librarys automatically!

Microsoft very stupidly put little in the way of version control into DLLs. They improved it in later years. The problems you're talking about are incompetent developers. They're not flaws in the system.

This wouldn't happen on a open source system, apart from your "API incompatibility" most programs manage to use the system-wide libs instead of static linkage etc.

You should pay more attention. It's really common for zlib, libpng, libssl, and a few other common libraries to be statically linked. wxWidgets is another common one to be statically linked - largely because they tend to make API changes even in point releases. It's more license issues than anything else that prevents static linking being more common. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[2]: It doesn' t matter how many... http://osnews.com/thread?261288 http://osnews.com/thread?261288 I see what you did there. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (snozzberry) Comments A FUD-worthy question http://osnews.com/thread?261290 http://osnews.com/thread?261290 If Robert gets run over tomorrow, who maintains this precious child of his? Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (snozzberry) Comments RE[8]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261294 http://osnews.com/thread?261294 "I don't care about evolution of software. I want a stable platform to work on. It's not worth breaking things for every minor improvement.

Binary compatibility matters for all users. Source compatibility only matters for developers, who are vastly outnumbered by normal users. And it only matters as much as it does because a Linux system is hundreds of libraries with little to no coordination between the developers."

That's wrong, there is a lot of coordination going on and it is done by the distributors. If you use a common distribution like Ubuntu, you will get a stable platform that stays the same if you don't upgrade to another _release_. Users don't have to care about binary compatibility because they have distributors who release binary compatible packages.

Software which is only released in binary form is the problem. But it's the fault of that software, not of the whole ecosystem of open source which works very well in itself.

"The problems you're talking about are incompetent developers. They're not flaws in the system."

That's a common mistake. Are windows developers more incompetent than others? I doubt it. Most Windows users operate as "Administrator", are they all just incompetent? I doubt it.


"You should pay more attention. It's really common for zlib, libpng, libssl, and a few other common libraries to be statically linked."

Example. I only know Xorg which tries to remove this craft.

wxWidgets -- I wouldn't count on wxWidgets as an example of good open source software. I tried to work with it, ... well... no, thanks.


"It's more license issues than anything else that prevents static linking being more common."

Most OSS software doesn't have any license issues. And if you talk about GPL, libraries are mostly LGPL, so they can be linked to any software. There is no problem in shipping the library's blob+code alongside any other software. Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[9]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261316 http://osnews.com/thread?261316 That's wrong, there is a lot of coordination going on and it is done by the distributors. If you use a common distribution like Ubuntu, you will get a stable platform that stays the same if you don't upgrade to another _release_. Users don't have to care about binary compatibility because they have distributors who release binary compatible packages.

The problem with your claim is that no distribution will ever include all the software a user will need. Take your Ubuntu example - users have to rely on Automatix to get a lot of commonly used software. Automatix floods your system with untracked binaries, leaving all the issues you complained about Windows having. There was a Slashdot discussion on this about a week ago.

The Windows DLL issues you're talking about primarily occur with cheap, junk software. You know, the stuff developed on almost no budget and sold really cheap.

As for a few examples of statically linked libraries...

Default builds of Mozilla products statically link libpng, zlib, libjpeg.

pgAdmin statically links wxWidgets. I worked on pgAdmin for a while, and can guarantee you that point releases of wxWidgets usually changed the API. Which of course is why they chose to statically link it.

OpenOffice at the very least has zlib linked in. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE: A FUD-worthy question http://osnews.com/thread?261319 http://osnews.com/thread?261319 His company.

He's said that he has contingency plans in place. He hasn't told us of them. Which is okay, because nobody's obliged to tell random strangers over the Internet about what their plans are for when they die. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Almafeta) Comments RE[10]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261378 http://osnews.com/thread?261378 "users have to rely on Automatix"

I never heard of that one, so, no, they don't. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[11]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261409 http://osnews.com/thread?261409 "users have to rely on Automatix"

I never heard of that one, so, no, they don't.

Just about every article ever written about Ubuntu says the first thing you should do is install Automatix and have it install all your audio/video codecs amongst other things.

Stop the blind defense of open source. It's got it's advantages, but its no where near perfect. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[12]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261415 http://osnews.com/thread?261415 So Ubuntu == open source.

I never said open source is perfect. And I also never made ridiculous claims like "users have to do XY, which is bad" just because some Distro users "need" it. Even Ubuntu users could use ./configure && make install, too.. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments RE[2]: A FUD-worthy question http://osnews.com/thread?261422 http://osnews.com/thread?261422 Hey, fair answer. Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (snozzberry) Comments RE[13]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261432 http://osnews.com/thread?261432 You brought up Ubuntu, claiming it didn't have the DLL installation issues Windows does. I'm just responding to your claims.

Arguing about whether or not your have to use Automatix is silly, as the vast majority of Ubuntu users use it.

You can't seriously claim that mp3 playback is a fringe thing only some users need. It's gotten to the point where even some servers need mp3 playback support (I've used it with Asterisk PBX boxes to get music on hold).

You've been arguing in circles here. Any point about a flaw in open source you respond to with a specific solution to the problem. Any criticism of the solution you suggest is responded to by "but that's a specific thing, not open source." Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (edwdig) Comments RE[14]: FAQ http://osnews.com/thread?261433 http://osnews.com/thread?261433 You're right, I said Ubuntu first and you responded to it. I chose the name randomly, as I don't use Ubuntu myself..

(Arguing about thinks like mp3 is a completely different beast, as this is not about software, but about software patents)

The problem I see in this discussion that you don't point out flaws in "open source", but in Ubuntu. Sorry.


What I wanted to express is, that the open source ecosystem in itself works and doesn't have the flaws you see in it. Binary compatibility is no issue for open source software in general. You can always compile against your current system and if you don't want to do it yourself there are distributors who do it. That's not applicable to every piece of software, as you have pointed out already.

As soon as you try to use proprietary software on a open source system, the problems start to arise. Like binary compatibility. On the other side, if you want to use popular open source software on a proprietary platform, it comes with a lot of dependancys. Both ways are suboptimal.


This discussion is quite senseless as I guess we talk about other point of views (I don't mean opinions here) or topics here. And right, it went into a circle.Edited 2007-08-07 17:19 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Ford Prefect) Comments