Ars takes a closer look at the Internet Explorer 8 beta (released yesterday), and concludes. “Niggles aside, IE8 is shaping up quite well. Clearly, a lot of work has been done on standards compliance, and it looks like it’s paying off. If IE8’s development continues down the path it’s on, it will finally be a version of Internet Explorer fit for the 21st century.”
Good to see something changeing in right direction.
Will it gain back popularity? Isn’t it too little too late? Thoughts buzzing in my head, thus I’ll keep silence for a while instead;)
Not really sure where they’re coming back from. It’s true their market share has dwindled, but to the average punter this makes little difference because IE is basically all they know.
For more advanced users like the majority of us on here, but specifically myself, it’d be a hard call to say that IE would take back my preference as my primary browser. Standards compliance aside, there’s more to the Firefox browser that puts it above and beyond IE, and it’s these reasons at least I choose in part to use Firefox.
I already have a standards compliant browser which is doing exactly what I want it to do on the web. I only keep IE for those sites which are “IE designed”.
Maybe so. But in many parts of Europe, Firefox is already as big as IE according to statistics, and Opera is popular too. And it is not that many years ago when many organizations used Netscape as their official main browser. If people are smart enough to install other software on their machines besides of the default MS Windows stuff like Notepad and Patience, why wouldn’t they bother installing a better browser too? Things like popularity of browsers can change.
Here’s a map of Firefox market share in Europe.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nitot/2234639770/sizes/o/
Firefox is not advanced user browser anymore· It has momentum, mainly due to better security.
Like I’ve stated before, if it can properly handle CSS without the need for quirky IE-specific hacks, I’m all for it. It can be a real pain, or at least rather limiting, for those of us who want to use features that make web development easier.
They will have to fix bugs. I have a standard-compliant web site that renders properly in IE6, IE7, Opera, Firefox and Safari, but that breaks totally in IE8 (Unless I toggle the IE7 rendering engine).
“They will have to fix bugs. I have a standard-compliant web site that renders properly in IE6, IE7, Opera, Firefox and Safari, but that breaks totally in IE8…”
I would check your site and make sure. IE8 is having some issues, however is rendering full standard compliant sites just fine. At least it is for me so far, and I have been making stuff to throw at it.
If my web site is standard-compliant (validates on the W3C web site), and renders different in two different “standard-compliant” browsers, there’s something wrong somewhere.
“If my web site is standard-compliant (validates on the W3C web site), and renders different in two different “standard-compliant” browsers, there’s something wrong somewhere.”
Agreed. I probably haven’t thrown enough at it yet
“Standard complaint” is used in a very vauge sense most of time. I doubt we’ll ever see a fully standard compliant browser again. The standards are just too big and too many.
Most of the time standard complaint simply means complaint with a reasonably large subset of the necessary standards.
Also there is always room for some interpretation and leway in most standards. The standard doesn’t give exact details about how every pixle should be rendered in every situation. So as such it is perfectly possible and valid for two browsers who both are 100% complaint to the letter of exactlty them spec to render the same page in two slightly different ways.
From a standards standpoint, the difference between IE6 and IE7 was that two CSS operators (+ and >) were supported, PNG transparency was finally supported, and some box model calculations were corrected. That’s it
IE8 has more support for CSS2 properties, but still falls far behind FF and Opera which managed these properties at least four years ago. It corrects the text-align:center mistake where that property incorrectly centered block elements like TABLE instead of the contents of that table’s cells. It seems to have repaired some inheritance problems. CSS2’s empty-cells property works now.
Regrettably the broken implementations of Q, OBJECT and BUTTON are no different than they were in 2000. It still doesn’t recognize the correct MIMEtype for XHTML. Many basic CSS2 properties like caption-side are still unsupported.
It is very good that IE developers are finally working towards making the browser more standards compliant. Time will tell how permanent this shift in attitudes will really be?
But if MS is really interested in supporting open web standards, shouldn’t IE try to support SVG better too? SVG (scalable vector graphics) is an open standard created by the World Wide Web Consortium’s SVG Working Group, so not so different from other W3C standards like CSS or XHTML. All other big browsers seem to have better SVG support.
Microsoft has its own competing Vector Markup Language (VML) but it was rejected as a web standard by the W3C, like the competing PGML (by Adobe & others) was too. Later the two standards were joined to create SVG, so SVG should combine the best features from both VML and PGML, and it is an official W3C standard too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Markup_Language
Edited 2008-03-06 23:14 UTC
I wonder how well it handles errors?
My ex-girlfriend was trying to get on the Oprah online class a few days ago.
Firefox failed, gave her a error message that pointed (to me at-least) to a problem with QuickTime then exited.
Internet Explorer failed, gave her a message that suggested an update (note: no clue what type of error, just that an update was needed), this lead to another update, that update failed but suggest another different update was needed, then after those two updates another one was suggested.
Meanwhile (over three hours on the phone) I could hear her getting more and more frustrated with the system.
There can be such a thing as too helpful a system.
Forgot to mention, after 1:00am in the morning I went to bed and left her still fighting with the browser. I still don’t know if she ever got IE to work.
It’s 3:00am and your children are asleep. There’s a phone in the White House, and it’s ringing. Something is happening in the world. Your vote will decide who answers that call. Whether someone knows the world’s leaders, knows the military, someone tested and ready to lead. It’s 3am and your children are safe and asleep.
What the hell are you blabbering on about?!?!?!?
That’s a rather (in)famous political advertisement running in the US right now.
I’m not sure why he brought it up, though.
I guess because at 3AM, which is a couple of hours after 1AM last I checked, when “something happens in the world” you want someone who is seasoned, tested, knows the military, and is not otherwise occupied fighting IE in order to get the information they need. 😉
One thing that is bothering me about all this Microsoft standards compliance hooplah is that absolutely nothing has been mentioned about their javascript compatibility. Problems with CSS or html mean that an IE only page won’t look right in Firefox or Epiphany. But more times than not, it is still usable, and my users can get their work done. The real show stoppers for my users… the ones that force us to run IE6 under Crossover Office… are the ones where you log in and click a link. Say, “File Warranty Claim”. And *nothing* happens because the Javascript is screwed.
CSS compliance makes it easier for conscientious web designers to get their work done. But most web designers and webmasters that I have to deal with aren’t that conscientious. As an administrator with about 100 users who have important work to do, CSS is the *least* of my problems. I need javascript to work right across platforms, and for ActiveX to be outlawed.
From the article:
“but standards mode is also considerably slower than IE7 mode”
“there’s a big “Emulate IE7” button on the toolbar. This button effectively switches off standards mode rendering. I have a slight fear that the “Emulate IE7” button will make its way into the final release in some form or another.”
I wouldn’t be very surprised if we can soon see ordinary PC users being advised to immediately switch off the “slow”, “evil” and “buggy” standards mode by pressing a button on the IE toolbar… Then Microsoft can claim that using the standards mode was a big mistake forced on them by others, and they can go back to their normal routine: doing things in their own monopolistic way regardless of common web standards? I hope this is just a baseless fear, however?
On the good side:
“checking for phishing attacks, IE8 will now filter and block sites that are known to contain hostile code.”
Very good!
Edited 2008-03-07 00:54 UTC
On the good side:
“checking for phishing attacks, IE8 will now filter and block sites that are known to contain hostile code.”
Very good!
and just WHO decides the site has hostile code ?
will IE8 automatically block linux.com from IE8 users, shielding unsuspecting Windows users from the scary linux infections ?
censorship is evil in any form
Heh..
And I thought that my above comment might have perhaps sounded a bit paranoid to someone… I wouldn’t go so far as to fear MS blocking Linux sites in its browsers… 
People would notice and it would bring bad publicity and protests.
Also Opera and Firefox browsers already use anti-phishing measures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing#Browsers_alerting_users_to_fr…
There are good public lists of sites that are known to spread malware. See, for example, here: http://www.malware.com.br/
Phishing is a crime, according to Wikipedia “an attempt to criminally and fraudulently acquire sensitive information, such as usernames, passwords and credit card details, by masquerading as a trustworthy entity in an electronic communication“. There’s nothing wrong “censoring” such crimes.
Making and spreading other kinds of computer malware is a crime too. Preventing crime is not evil censorship. People are not allowed to poison, shoot and rob each other freely either, are they? (at least in the civilized world they aren’t…)
Besides I wouldn’t say that censorship of, say, child porn or some extreme racist hate propaganda promoting violence against innocent people would be bad either – in other words: preventing serious crimes.
But – it is true that a major problem of closed source software is that you can never be totally sure what kind odd things or at least bugs, could be hidden there in the code, nor could you fix the bugs yourself. It is just a matter of trust.
Edited 2008-03-07 10:00 UTC
Would you distinguish between a situation in which the fox was guarding the henhouse, and The Association of Hens was guarding the henhouse? I would.
Yes, a good point. I agree.
Like I said above – it is a matter of trust.
If the fox put to guard the henhouse was very well-trained and the hens had gone totally mad, maybe then I could trust the docile fox more…
Edited 2008-03-07 10:26 UTC
I’d feel better if the fox was neutered first. 😉
Until recently, I would have been inclined to agree with you, the other day, however, I read about wikileaks.org. ‘Nuff said.
I’m surprised Microsoft didn’t play the same dirty trick it played on Windows 2000 users when it released Internet Explorer 7 for XP users only and release Internet Explorer 8 exclusively for Vista / Server 2008 users only. It’s only a matter of time before Microsoft tries to forcibly disenfranchise users who steadfastly cling to the (superior) Windows XP operating system. I’m glad I don’t need (or want) Microsoft products! They can keep IE8. Meanwhile I’m awaiting Firefox 3 with baited breath!
The vast majority of the world see Vista as a flop, and if Microsoft targeted IE8 purely for Vista, these people will stick with IE7, or IE6.
Having a newer browser will never make anyone upgrade an operating system, especially to one that to some people appears worse.
Did anyone else notice how IE8 passes the acid2 test but fails to properly render the homepage for that test? How ironic…
In her blog Anne van Kesteren lists some bad things in IE8, especially from a web developer point of view, but that could also affect ordinary users:
http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/03/ie8-bad
Examples:
“The W3C Web Application Formats Working Group has been working on enabling cross-site requests for quite a while, yet Microsoft introduces their own, crippled version.”
“In Internet Explorer 8 you can trigger standards mode using a Microsoft specific meta element. All other browsers will render the page in quirks mode. Creating such differences is bad for the Web.”