OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/19698/Java_6_Released_for_64bit_Intel_Macs Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:27:55 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif OSNews.com http://www.osnews.com Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312115 http://osnews.com/thread?312115 I'm currently working on a Java project on an embedded system. A bit annoyed by all the legacy code I have to work with, I'll start a small rant against Java to fight my boredom.

The news kinda reveals my biggest gripe against Java. For me it is not portable at all; at least, no more than other languages.

Most platforms feature at least a free decent C compiler. From there either you directly have a modern C++ compiler or you can compile a C++ compiler (i.e. GCC). Even on the embedded systems, it is quite rare not to be able to get a decent C++ compiler (although a lot of programmers in the embedded market tend to dismiss it, 'cause someone told them embedded programming had to be done in C).

Now, with Java, you're at the mercy of having a decent JVM for the relevant platforms. Of course, major platforms have access to a decent Java 6 VM, but it's far from being the case on more exotic platforms. Mind the news above: MacOS X had to wait a year to have access to Java 6, and it's only covering the latest 64 bits Intel CPUs! Personally, I don't think that MacOS X is such an exotic platform.

A lot of "exotic" platforms do have a JVM, but usually it's a decent Java 1.2 VM at best, or a quite slow and incomplete Java 1.1 VM at worst. Some programmers are happy with that, I'm not.

In the project I'm working on, they use JNI to interface the Java part with a C++ library doing the core work. While it makes sense from a technical point (the core part needs to be as fast and efficient, the target being an embedded system), it makes things even worse.

Not even talking about the 64 MB eaten up by the JVM (WTF?! 64 MB on an embedded device, just for a GUI ?!). The addition of a C++ library, combining Java and C++ portability shortcomings together, makes the portability of the whole project a nightmare.

I could also go on about all these Java development tools that, as if they were the only relevant Java application, install development tools or libraries that are incompatible with the rest of the system (Eclipse anyone ?)


A bored and annoyed developper.


PS. Yesterday, Eclipse (lastest stable version) crashed about 10 times the Sun JVM (also latest stable version) with some nice segfault. Although I recall someone telling me that segfaults were impossible in Java, I most certainly encountered way more Sun JVM crashes than I found critical bugs in C++ compilers (GCC and VS). Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (gpsnoopy) Comments RE: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312136 http://osnews.com/thread?312136 sun have a jvm for a lot of embedded system

also it's not the sun's job to create a jvm for all cpu...

sun provide an implementation... people can create a jvm if they want...

a lot of embdedded system use java to program... like muvium (www.muvium.com)... this system cpu is under 50Mhz...

don't forget java is a language...

if you find the jvm implementation you use, try to use another one... or try compagny who take the java code and convert it directly in c or asm...

you can try gcj... but for the majority of the test i done, it's slower than sun jvm Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (collinm) Comments RE: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312141 http://osnews.com/thread?312141 I think it was Apple's choice not to have Java 1.6. Not Sun. Sun doesnt make a Java VM for Apple (or many other platforms). I think they support Linux/Windows and Solaris. From what i understand its up to Apple to develop and deploy Java on the Mac OS X platform.


Also, I am not sure what embedded system you are working with, but the J2ME works on lots of devices with as little as 5MB of RAM (some i suspect even less). If you are having to deal with JNI, it sounds like you are probably dealing with hardware that has no java library support. Thats not Java's Fault either (its like blaming language X for not having libraries for hardware Y, so you have to use an external interface to libraries written in language Z).

Java does not equal C. If you want C portability, use C. If you want Java's features, use Java. Or if you want the best of both worlds and your platform supports GNU GCC use Their GCJ compiler, and compile to native code and link to C/C++ libraries as needed. There are also more efficient VMs such as Kaffe.

BTW- i suggest if you are having problems with eclipse, use NetBeans. I have started using it for ruby development and its very nice. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (slashdev) Comments RE: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312145 http://osnews.com/thread?312145 I think the worse evil is the fact that we don't get this for Tiger... ;) Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bproven2) Comments Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312166 http://osnews.com/thread?312166 Really strange behaviour. I can only conclude that it's either for cost reasons (less engineers/time used); or to drive sales of new Macs. I don't think Apple has ever been all that 'enthused' about Java either way. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) Comments RE: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312192 http://osnews.com/thread?312192
I don't think Apple has ever been all that 'enthused' about Java either way.


Look at it this way. What was the last Java client side application that you used? If you're not a Java developer, you're definitely going to try your best to stay away from anything Java related. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (evangs) Comments RE[2]: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312196 http://osnews.com/thread?312196
Look at it this way. What was the last Java client side application that you used? If you're not a Java developer, you're definitely going to try your best to stay away from anything Java related.


We just started using this here at OSN.

http://www.woopra.com/

Will blow all your prejudice surrounding Java away. What an AWESOME application. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments RE[2]: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312199 http://osnews.com/thread?312199 The one great thing about Java on the Mac is that it's transparent (as _any_ runtime is supposed to be). I refuse outright to install it on Windows. I do not want items in my startup and all the "integration" crap that litters the Windows install. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Kroc) Comments RE[2]: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312203 http://osnews.com/thread?312203
I think the worse evil is the fact that we don't get this for Tiger... ;)


Java 6 GM has been available for Tiger since late 2007, hasn't it?

They even mention it in this support note: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307177

I'm not even sure that Apple have updated Java 5 for Leopard with the latest fixes but it's been a long time since I loaded Java 6 onto my Ubuntu and Windows machines.

For a company that said that Mac OS X was the best platform ever for Java, it's time for them to eat their words. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bousozoku) Comments RE[3]: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312206 http://osnews.com/thread?312206
The one great thing about Java on the Mac is that it's transparent (as _any_ runtime is supposed to be). I refuse outright to install it on Windows. I do not want items in my startup and all the "integration" crap that litters the Windows install.


What do you mean? Java apps run transparently on Windows too here. WinPatrol blocked the update services and such that Sun forces down your throat, so those don't bother me either. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Thom_Holwerda) Comments Alternative to Apple's Java http://osnews.com/thread?312207 http://osnews.com/thread?312207 I haven't used it and can't vouch for it, but there's an OSX port of BSD's java called SoyLatte that I believe will work on older Macs and Tiger.

http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (David) Comments RE[2]: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312208 http://osnews.com/thread?312208
Look at it this way. What was the last Java client side application that you used? If you're not a Java developer, you're definitely going to try your best to stay away from anything Java related.


Yeah, stay away from OpenOffice (used in Base) and Limewire. If you do PHP development, stay away From Zend (now Ecplipse based). And cell phones are just for calling people. Right... that's crazy. Forget Java 1.1, will you. Java right now is VERY performant. Plus, it is SO nice to have an App that you can just drag-and-drop deploy between Windows, Mac, BSD and Linux. I write client-side apps for companies. They love the simplicity of deployment. And if you know how to code, they perform well.

Really, why don't we just stay away from higher-level languages altogether, and stick with tried-and-true assembler. I'd love to see the code base for OpenOffice.Org, assember edition! Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fretinator) Comments Not sure about this... http://osnews.com/thread?312248 http://osnews.com/thread?312248 I am not sure what I should feel about this...when I first read this news I thought "great!!", but then I started thinking...if I buy a Mac now (which was planning on the moment it got working Java), what stops Apple from pulling the same shit when Java7 arrives?

Will my Mac work with later releases of Java? Do I have to upgrade the OS to get working Java? Do I have to wait 1,5 years to get the latest Java release? Lets face it; The Java releases are far between, so when they first arrive, it sucks to have to wait even longer.

Suddenly I am not so sure about that Mac anymore unfortunately ;) Edited 2008-04-30 21:02 UTC Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (J.R.) Comments RE: Not sure about this... http://osnews.com/thread?312255 http://osnews.com/thread?312255 Valid point but I do not believe that will happen. I think you should still go ahead and purchase your Mac. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (suryad) Comments RE[3]: Comment by Kroc http://osnews.com/thread?312282 http://osnews.com/thread?312282
"Look at it this way. What was the last Java client side application that you used? If you're not a Java developer, you're definitely going to try your best to stay away from anything Java related.


We just started using this here at OSN.

http://www.woopra.com/

Will blow all your prejudice surrounding Java away. What an AWESOME application. "

Looks nice for managing your web services, gathering tracking information and much more.

Too bad it's not something that hooks into, say Cocoon 2, and let's me manage them on my servers, without having to "sign up" and be part of this service. Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tyrione) Comments RE[2]: Not sure about this... http://osnews.com/thread?312347 http://osnews.com/thread?312347
Valid point but I do not believe that will happen.


What makes you believe that? Apple are clearly not interested in Java. Thu, 01 May 2008 10:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (J.R.) Comments No 32bit still http://osnews.com/thread?312373 http://osnews.com/thread?312373 I'm in the process of getting a new machine for work. I'm tossing up between an iMac and a a generic linux pc.

I'm a Java developer (for the web) and support from Apple is the only negative (for me) with OSX. However Apple doesn't really like developers, or server stuff. It's not sexy enough for them apparently.

I've finally given up hope. They don't seem to care unless you're using Objective C, perhaps the least useful language in the real world for business use (unless your office is all Macs).

I don't see Apple making inroads into real business especially on the server side.

As of right now. Linux is the best development environment for web apps given it's broad access to technologies. The ability to generally use whichever version works best for you is invaluable. Apple leeches some of this by being build on BSD, but tying development tools so tightly to OS versions is just stupid. No one at Apple seems to understand servers at all.

The only thing Apple can do to earn my forgiveness for not releasing the JDK for 32bit, is to release their JDK code into OpenJDK. I once trusted them not to completely drop java support, and they didn't, but I don't trust them anymore.

I'll probably still get the iMac. I like OSX. Hopefully SoyLatte will fill the void in the near future. Or maybe I should kick myself in the head, be sensible and get the linux box. Thu, 01 May 2008 12:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (deadmeat) Comments RE[3]: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312391 http://osnews.com/thread?312391 Don't think so... I/m pretty sure that Java Release 6 is just Java 5's latest release for Tiger. There is no Java 6 for Tiger AFAIK Thu, 01 May 2008 13:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (bproven2) Comments RE[3]: Java rant... http://osnews.com/thread?312463 http://osnews.com/thread?312463
"I think the worse evil is the fact that we don't get this for Tiger... ;)


Java 6 GM has been available for Tiger since late 2007, hasn't it?

They even mention it in this support note: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307177

I'm not even sure that Apple have updated Java 5 for Leopard with the latest fixes but it's been a long time since I loaded Java 6 onto my Ubuntu and Windows machines.

For a company that said that Mac OS X was the best platform ever for Java, it's time for them to eat their words. "

It's for this release:

http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx104release6.htm...

About Java for Mac OS X 10.4, Release 6
Java for Mac OS X 10.4, Release 6 delivers improved reliability and compatibility for Java 2 Platform Standard Edition 5.0 and Java 1.4 on Mac OS X 10.4.10 and later. This release updates J2SE 5.0 to version 1.5.0_13 and Java 1.4 to version 1.4.2_16. Thu, 01 May 2008 19:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tyrione) Comments Java and OSX, faith sliding http://osnews.com/thread?312561 http://osnews.com/thread?312561 Java6 would be good but frankly having a JVM that works properly with Leopards Spaces feature counts for more with me!

NeoOffice is hamstrung by this problem and unable to escape from it until the JVM is sorted out.

For work purposes I have been obliged to install MS Office 2008 which also fluffs the integration with Spaces.

Perhaps Office 2008 is also based on Java or may be not?

In any case all Leopard systems (even 32bit) should now have Java6 ... or Apple risk being seen as a second tier player! Fri, 02 May 2008 11:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ameasures) Comments RE: No 32bit still http://osnews.com/thread?312697 http://osnews.com/thread?312697 Or just buy the iMac and dual-boot MacOS X and Ubuntu on it. Sat, 03 May 2008 15:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (calc) Comments