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		<title>OSNews: </title>
		<link>http://www.osnews.com/story/19855/Anatomy_of_Linux_Journaling_File_System</link>
		<description>Exploring the Future of Computing</description>
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		<copyright>Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams</copyright>
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		<item>
			<title>Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318337</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318337</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Finally, the ReiserFS journaling file system blazed many new trails when it was introduced and found wide adoption. Its evolution is now diminished because of the legal issues of its original author. </div><br />
 I find that a pretty daft thing to write. ReiserFS is still used by a great many people because it still does what it was designed to do very well, and there were more people involved with ReiserFS than Hans.<br />
 <br />
 Its usage has diminished mainly because the focus of development was switched from maintenance of Reiser 3 to a new and completely incompatible filesystem in Reiser4 that people weren't just going to reformat and move to overnight. While I still expect lots of useful things to come out of Reiser4, it serves as a bit of a warning to people who think they can just breeze in with a totally new and uber cool filesystem and expect it to be widely adopted.<br />
<br />
Additionally, I don't see widespread adoption or support of JFS at all. You usually have to jump through some pretty reasonable hoops to get JFS on most distributions, and XFS holds more confidence for more people in most use cases for such a filesystem.Edited 2008-06-12 21:52 UTC</description>
			<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:43:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318344</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318344</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">"<i>Finally, the ReiserFS journaling file system blazed many new trails when it was introduced and found wide adoption. Its evolution is now diminished because of the legal issues of its original author. </div><br />
I find that a pretty daft thing to write. </i>"<br />
<br />
I quite agree, itâs not like he loses his copyright because he is imprisonedâ¦</description>
			<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:04:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (Beta)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>Relationship to UFS</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318345</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318345</guid>
			<description>Interesting article (allthough it does not go very deep into technology, but introduces a starting point), especially the section &quot;Variations on journaling&quot;. It explains how data and metadata is handled for different modes to avoid inconsistencies. Remarkable: The more security, the less performance, as it seems. It has been mentioned that is it not always clear when writes from journal take place, and how metadata is handled in relation to the corresponding data blocks.<br />
<br />
This is a difference to performant file systems like the Fast File System (FFS, also known as UFS) used by the BSDs. There, the metadata is written asynchronously in a definite order, so the file system's &quot;on disk status&quot; is always consistent, which may not the case in the mentioned journaling file systems under certain circumstances.<br />
<br />
The article mentions that journaling file systems have the advantage that it's not neccessary to wait for the fsck utility at startup when a file system problem is recognized, for example after an unclean system shutdown. BSD's fsck utility is able to run in the background while the system is booting up and running, so there's no need to wait for it to complete. This is not a &quot;journaling FS feature&quot; only.<br />
<br />
And I still know XFS from my good old SGI beauties... =^_^=</description>
			<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:14:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (Doc Pain)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>Compatibility</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318353</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318353</guid>
			<description>Does anyone know if Linux / XFS can read Irix disks, or if Linux / JFS can read AIX disks?<br />
<br />
Even if the filesystems are on-disk compatible, I imagine there are endianness and incompatible logical volume management issues.<br />
<br />
In the days of yore I thought that JFS2 was only in AIX 5 and JFS1 was in AIX 4, Linux, and OS/2, but the Wikipedia article says otherwise.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:09:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (jwwf)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[2]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318362</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318362</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">I quite agree, its not like he loses his copyright because he is imprisoned </div><br />
<br />
Yeah, but if you're the kind of person who refuses to use software from anybody you consider &quot;evil&quot;, you're gonna need to add ReiserFS to your list. I mean, if you're gonna lump Microsoft into that category, you have to do the same for Reiser ... right? ;-p</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:58:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (tomcat)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[2]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318364</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318364</guid>
			<description>That doesn't really seem to be the point they were trying to make with that sentence though, all they were saying was that its continued development/enhancement are in a state of flux, since Hans is in fact the principal author/designer, and the fate of Namesys if he does wind up in prison remains to be seen.Edited 2008-06-13 03:59 UTC</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:58:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (anevilyak)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>Yep, journalled file-systems are great!</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318374</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318374</guid>
			<description>They're just incredibly robust and reliable. <br />
<br />
It's great to boot my Linux box in the evening and be<br />
*absolutely certain* that it will boot just fine. Sheesh, the number of times that Win XP blue-screened on me in the far-distant past when I used it...  <br />
<br />
 Ok, it's true that OS robustness is due to more than just the file-system, but a good journalling FS sure helps... <img src="/images/emo/smile.gif" alt=";)" />   <br />
<br />
 FreeBSD is interesting too, with its &quot;soft-updates&quot; in its file-system. That's ultra-robust as well.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:25:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (obsidian)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>Stress test?</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318379</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318379</guid>
			<description>Ive heard that most systems work fine during light load and easy tasks. Even WinXP works fine then. The problem is when you scale up things. Will it still work, under demanding circumstances? Will WinXP work with 99.999% uptime? Will Linux filesystems work with Petabytes of storage, and will it work fast and reliable? And how about fsck petabyte filesystems? Will it take the entire weekend (yes it will)? Etc. <br />
<br />
It seems that only ZFS is able to cope with all these issues. <br />
<br />
For instance, a new 1TB drive has 20% of its space allocated for error correction. There are so much errors in large drives that it isnt funny. ZFS makes the assumption that the drives, IO cards, etc WILL fail. And ZFS copes with these errors. It is the only one detecting silent corruption (and correcting them). All this issues new drives faces and more, are discussed here:<br />
<a href="http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&amp;pid=504" rel="nofollow">http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&am...</a></description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:47:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (Kebabbert)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>Softupdates?</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318384</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318384</guid>
			<description>I still think of journalling as an oddity.<br />
While journalling writes the (meta-)data<br />
twice to the disc, softupdates just change<br />
the order of writes, therefore also elimi-<br />
nating the need to run fsck (except to re-<br />
free storage marked as allocated).<br />
<br />
That said, our (the BSDs') fsck still sucks.<br />
<br />
Another thing is Log-Structured Filesystems<br />
like 4.4BSD LFS. It has a very interesting<br />
concept, but the current implementation lets<br />
people not believe in it and is buggy (while<br />
it worked in NetBSDÂ®, only up to 60% of disc<br />
space can be used cleanly).<br />
<br />
Reiserfs looks, to me, more similar to LFS<br />
than to a journalled filesystem. I agree to<br />
keep an eye on it, as it's interesting too.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:34:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (mirabilos)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE: Compatibility</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318386</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318386</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Does anyone know if Linux / XFS can read Irix disks, or if Linux / JFS can read AIX disks?<br />
<br />
Even if the filesystems are on-disk compatible, I imagine there are endianness and incompatible logical volume management issues. </div><br />
<br />
This may answer your question:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html#useirixxfs" rel="nofollow">http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html#useirixxfs</a></description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:59:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (Erunno)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[3]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318396</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318396</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Yeah, but if you're the kind of person who refuses to use software from anybody you consider &quot;evil&quot;....I mean, if you're gonna lump Microsoft into that category, you have to do the same for Reiser ... right? ;-p </div><br />
 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Everybody hates Microsoft, there's some conspiracy to hate Microsoft, everybody does everything because they hate Microsoft etc. etc. This complex does the rounds on a lot of MSDN blogs I've seen, and it's just plain sad. Whatever the whys and wherefores of Hans Reiser, the code lives on regardless. Microsoft has a track record of being derogatory about open source software at every turn, so no, many people aren't just going to start liking Microsoft until they throw them a serious bone.<br />
 <br />
 Either deal with that, or get yourself a wigwam outside of Redmond and go and live there.Edited 2008-06-13 14:31 UTC</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:30:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318400</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318400</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">I find that a pretty daft thing to write. ReiserFS is still used by a great many people because it still does what it was designed to do very well, and there were more people involved with ReiserFS than Hans. </div><br />
<br />
It isn't daft, Namesys has pretty much fallen to pieces, and no real work is being done on reiserFS anymore.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:16:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (google_ninja)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[4]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318402</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318402</guid>
			<description>This is getting REALLY off topic, but it was such a stunning post I couldn't help but comment<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Microsoft has a track record of being derogatory about open source software at every turn </div><br />
<br />
Let me get this straight. Your definition of &quot;Evil&quot; is being &quot;derogatory about open source software&quot;? That really blows my mind...<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">many people aren't just going to start liking Microsoft until they throw them a serious bone </div><br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight" rel="nofollow">http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight</a><br />
<br />
They paid for top quality HD codecs (WAY beyond theora, which is the best out there in the oss world), said they wouldn't sue over use of technology they own, and helped out with development.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/interop/" rel="nofollow">http://www.microsoft.com/interop/</a><br />
<br />
The big move inside the company to play well with its competitors, which we have already started seeing the results of<br />
<br />
<a href="http://port25.technet.com/" rel="nofollow">http://port25.technet.com/</a><br />
<br />
An effort to help integrate linux into MS based environments<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/community.mspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/community.mspx</a> <br />
<br />
A list of open source businesses that Microsoft has partnered with (MSCP means you get pretty much all microsoft software for free or next to nothing)<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.codeplex.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.codeplex.com/</a><br />
<br />
Microsofts hosted source code/community site for open source projects<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx</a><br />
<br />
Microsofts promise not to sue over use of a whole bunch of protocols and formats they own patents on</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:37:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (google_ninja)</author>
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			<title>RE: Stress test?</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318403</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318403</guid>
			<description>There are always trade offs for filesystems. Some work best with large amounts of small files, others work best with constant reads to big files. Some are geared towards the desktop (including stuff like rich metadata, or moving system files to the middle of the platters for quick access), others are geared towards servers (like ZFS, which you just mentioned)</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:40:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (google_ninja)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[5]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318405</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318405</guid>
			<description>The big move inside the company to play well with its competitors, which we have already started seeing the results of...<br />
<br />
Play well with competitors, huh? Either Microsoft buys them, or smashes them with dirty tricks. Who do you think financed the SCO lawsuits? Who do you think lobbied the US congress to make America's odious software patent laws even more odious? Or who has been pouring millions into lobbyists pockets to get the European Commission to saddle Europe with software patents (so far, unsuccessfully). And who forces computer manufacturers to buy a Windows license for every computer they sell, even if the customer doesn't want Windows pre-installed? Who paid shills to post all sorts of messages to BBSs saying how lousy OS/2 was (and continues doing this to Linux)? And (though Microsoft denies it) there was that whole &quot;NSA Key&quot; thing, plus all the DRM stuff in Vista.<br />
<br />
Microsoft has done its part to screw up the US's legal system, and keeps trying to screw up the legal systems of other countries. And smash competition any way they can. And violate your privacy. Bill Gates should be put in prison for some of the things he's done.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:51:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (ozonehole)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[6]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318407</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318407</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Who do you think financed the SCO lawsuits? </div><br />
 <br />
 A whole bunch of people did. Microsoft paid sco money to liscence UNIX to make their UNIX tools<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">Who do you think lobbied the US congress to make America's odious software patent laws even more odious? </div><br />
 <br />
 Link? Microsoft is constantly calling for patent reform, they are the biggest targets and get sued more then anyone over software patents.<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">Or who has been pouring millions into lobbyists pockets to get the European Commission to saddle Europe with software patents (so far, unsuccessfully) </div><br />
 <br />
 Again, where are you getting this information?<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">And who forces computer manufacturers to buy a Windows license for every computer they sell, even if the customer doesn't want Windows pre-installed? </div><br />
 <br />
 Nobody. If you bring up what they did to be, I'm just going to say the same thing about pre and post anti-trust suit microsoft<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">Who paid shills to post all sorts of messages to BBSs saying how lousy OS/2 was (and continues doing this to Linux)? </div><br />
 <br />
 Microsoft from 30 years ago is a very different from microsoft now. That is my whole point.<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">(and continues doing this to Linux) </div><br />
 <br />
 Dude, you are off your rocker<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">And (though Microsoft denies it) there was that whole &quot;NSA Key&quot; thing, plus all the DRM stuff in Vista. </div><br />
 <br />
 a) What does either have to do with being &quot;derrogatory towards open source<br />
 <br />
 b) What does allowing for playing HD-DVDs have to do with anything?<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">Microsoft has done its part to screw up the US's legal system, and keeps trying to screw up the legal systems of other countries. </div><br />
 <br />
 How?<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">And smash competition any way they can. </div><br />
 <br />
 Look at the ten or so links I just posted, most of those have to do with working with competition. Again, MS now is not the same as MS 20-30 years ago.<br />
 <br />
  [/q]Bill Gates should be put in prison for some of the things he's done. [/q]<br />
 <br />
 <div class="cquote">The Bill &amp; Melinda Gates Foundation (B&amp;MGF) is the largest transparently operated[2] charitable foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates in 2000 and doubled in size by Warren Buffett in 2006. The primary aims of the foundation are, globally, to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty, and, in the United States, to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology. The foundation, based in Seattle, Washington, is controlled by its three trustees: Bill Gates, Melinda Gates, and Warren Buffett. Other principal officers include Co-Chair William H. Gates, Sr. and Chief Executive Officer Patty Stonesifer. It has an endowment of US$38.7 billion as of December 31, 2007.[1] </div><br />
 (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation</a>)  <br />
 <br />
 Indeed, a shifty character if I ever saw one...Edited 2008-06-13 16:18 UTC</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:02:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (google_ninja)</author>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[7]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318413</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318413</guid>
			<description>Would you guys mind to discuss journaling file systems? I could care less about your MS hate/fanboism.<br />
<br />
Thanks in advance.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:34:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (merkoth)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[2]: Compatibility</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318425</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318425</guid>
			<description>Thanks, that implies that XFS is endian-neutral, which is interesting.</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:03:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (jwwf)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
		</item>

		<item>
			<title>RE[5]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318443</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318443</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Let me get this straight. Your definition of &quot;Evil&quot; is being &quot;derogatory about open source software&quot;? That really blows my mind... </div><br />
Since we're talking about ReiserFS, which is open source, and this idiot is telling us that since he thinks that everybody thinks that Microsoft is evil we should stop using ReiserFS as well...... Does that blow your mind enough?<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote"><a href="http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight" rel="nofollow">http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight</a> </div><br />
Ahhhhhhhh, Moonlight. If Silverlight ever gets to a critical mess, we'll come back and see how compatible Moonlight is then, OK? This is a technology where Microsoft is <b>behind</b>. I did mention track record, right?<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">They paid for top quality HD codecs (WAY beyond theora, which is the best out there in the oss world), said they wouldn't sue over use of technology they own, and helped out with development. </div><br />
Where is the source code, what is the license and who controls said codecs? A promise not to sue, is just that. A promise, and a promise is not legally binding. Additionally, Moonlight has no codecs to speak of, and can only use ffmpeg currently.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">The big move inside the company to play well with its competitors, which we have already started seeing the results of </div><br />
No evidence of that happening. Contributions to Samba? Contributions to Open Office? You know, actual code?<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote"><a href="http://port25.technet.com/" rel="nofollow">http://port25.technet.com/</a> </div><br />
I think you might want to take a look around and see if there is actually anything useful on there ;-).<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">An effort to help integrate linux into MS based environments </div><br />
Vice versa? Errrrr, no.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">A list of open source businesses that Microsoft has partnered with..... </div><br />
Show me the code ;-). I have yet to see anything of note come out of that for anyone apart from soundbites about how Microsoft is now so open source friendly.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Microsofts hosted source code/community site for open source projects </div><br />
Yes. Open source projects on <b>their</b> platforms with not a single line of code from their platforms in sight.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Microsofts promise not to sue over use of a whole bunch of protocols and formats they own patents on </div><br />
That makes me feel so much better. The OSP is a promise and not a license, and legally speaking means zilch. It also only applies to you if you take a piece of technology as-is, so if you embed it into another project that does something different, hmmmmm. That's not covered.<br />
<br />
It's all smoke and mirrors, or as former Microsoft employee Joel Spolsky says, fire and motion ;-).</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:42:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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		<item>
			<title>RE[7]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318444</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318444</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">A whole bunch of people did. Microsoft paid sco money to liscence UNIX to make their UNIX tools </div><br />
Uh, huh.<br />
 <br />
<div class="cquote">"<i>The Bill &amp;amp; Melinda Gates Foundation (B&amp;amp;MGF) is the largest transparently operated[2] charitable foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates in 2000 and doubled in size.............. </div> </i>"<br />
I think we'll stop right there ;-). See my original comment about people with complexes banging away on their MSDN blogs :-).</description>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:46:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum)</author>
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			<title>RE[6]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318453</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318453</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Since we're talking about ReiserFS, which is open source, and this idiot is telling us ... </div><br />
<br />
Hmmm. Congratulations. You've just violated the terms of service for OSNews.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">... that since he thinks that everybody thinks that Microsoft is evil we should stop using ReiserFS as well...... Does that blow your mind enough? </div><br />
<br />
Choke on your double-standard.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Ahhhhhhhh, Moonlight. If Silverlight ever gets to a critical mess, we'll come back and see how compatible Moonlight is then, OK? This is a technology where Microsoft is behind. I did mention track record, right? </div><br />
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Moonlight IS part of that track record, but apparently, NOTHING that MS could do would overcome your double-standard.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Where is the source code, what is the license and who controls said codecs?  </div><br />
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Since when is contributing codec source code necessary to avoid being called &quot;evil&quot;? There are lots of ways to contribute to open source without contributing source code. FSF lawyer Eben Moglen doesn't contribute source code, but his legal contributions make it possible for open source to thrive. Microsoft contributes codecs to Linux. It makes Linux a more vibrant platform for users. But your narrow view of the universe is too twisted to recognize &quot;contribution&quot; as anything other than source code. Well, you're wrong.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">A promise not to sue, is just that. A promise, and a promise is not legally binding. Additionally, Moonlight has no codecs to speak of, and can only use ffmpeg currently. </div><br />
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Provide a link describing somebody that Microsoft has sued for patent infringement. I'd really like to read about it. <br />
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<div class="cquote">No evidence of that happening. Contributions to Samba? Contributions to Open Office? You know, actual code? </div><br />
<br />
So what. When was the last time that the Samba developers contributed to Open Office? Or vice-versa? Why is it necessary for devs to contribute to your pet projects in order to avoid being called &quot;evil&quot;? Are all developers who don't contribute to Samba and Open Office &quot;evil&quot;? If not, why? You're twisting yourself into knots.<br />
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<div class="cquote">I think you might want to take a look around and see if there is actually anything useful on there ;-). </div><br />
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How about the source code for the .NET Framework? <br />
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<div class="cquote">Vice versa? Errrrr, no. </div><br />
<br />
Windows Services for Unix. <br />
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<div class="cquote">Show me the code ;-). I have yet to see anything of note come out of that for anyone apart from soundbites about how Microsoft is now so open source friendly. </div><br />
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Apparently, you're not looking at all.<br />
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<div class="cquote">That makes me feel so much better. The OSP is a promise and not a license, and legally speaking means zilch. </div><br />
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Show me ANYBODY that Microsoft has sued for patent infringement.<br />
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<div class="cquote">It also only applies to you if you take a piece of technology as-is, so if you embed it into another project that does something different, hmmmmm. That's not covered. </div><br />
<br />
Red herring. OSP code is licensed to you with fairly generous terms, but it doesn't let you re-license the same source code separately; nor do you really NEED to do that at all. You're just throwing any crap you can think of against the wall, and hoping that some of it will stick.</description>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:54:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (tomcat)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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			<title>RE[7]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318513</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318513</guid>
			<description><div class="cquote">Hmmm. Congratulations. You've just violated the terms of service for OSNews. </div><br />
Look at who's at the bottom of the thread, and where this starts, mate ;-).<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Choke on your double-standard. </div><br />
What double standard? The two aren't comparable, which is the point I believe.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Moonlight IS part of that track record </div><br />
Yes, it is.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Since when is contributing codec source code necessary to avoid being called &quot;evil&quot;? </div><br />
You mentioned a track record of open source credentials. That means code. I don't know why you keep mentioning the word evil here. You're the one who made that accusation, and you're the one with the complex about everybody thinking that Microsoft is evil.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Provide a link describing somebody that Microsoft has sued for patent infringement. I'd really like to read about it. </div><br />
Alas, that isn't a get-out for you. Read the OSP and tell me if it is a legally binding license.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">So what. When was the last time that the Samba developers contributed to Open Office? Or vice-versa? </div><br />
Why would they want to do that? The two projects are different. I'm saying that if Microsoft wanst to be taken seriously as an open source company committed to interoperability, there's a pretty damn easy way to prove it.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Why is it necessary for devs to contribute to your pet projects in order to avoid being called &quot;evil&quot;? </div><br />
Why are you mentioning the word evil again? You sound like one of those saddos on banging on his MSDN blog trying to tell us that everyone hates Microsoft and everything is an IBM conspiracy.<br />
<br />
<div class="cquote">Are all developers who don't contribute to Samba and Open Office &quot;evil&quot;? If not, why? You're twisting yourself into knots. </div><br />
Errrr, no. If they want to be taken seriously about interoperability and open source contributions, there's a damn easy way to do it.<br />
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<div class="cquote">How about the source code for the .NET Framework? </div><br />
Errrrrr, no. I think you'll find that any code there is Rotor. You won't find the code for the .Net framework.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Windows Services for Unix. </div><br />
Windows Services for Unix and Linux, running on Linux and Unix? Errr, no.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Apparently, you're not looking at all. </div><br />
It ain't there.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Show me ANYBODY that Microsoft has sued for patent infringement. </div><br />
That's not a get out and doesn't paint over how pointless the OSP is I'm afraid.<br />
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<div class="cquote">Red herring. OSP code is licensed to you with fairly generous terms </div><br />
The OSP is not a license, as I've pointed out.<br />
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<div class="cquote">but it doesn't let you re-license the same source code separately; nor do you really NEED to do that at all. </div><br />
Errrrr, cross pollination of source code from one project to another is an absolute cornerstone of any open source project and the open source world. Without it, there is no point.<br />
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<div class="cquote">You're just throwing any crap you can think of against the wall, and hoping that some of it will stick. </div><br />
You've addressed absolutely nothing sweetheart. It's all fire and motion.</description>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:37:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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			<title>RE[5]: Silly</title>
			<link>http://osnews.com/thread?318514</link>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://osnews.com/thread?318514</guid>
			<description>A promise is comfort to a fool right?</description>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:40:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<author>donotreply@osnews.com (de_wizze)</author>
			<category>Comments</category>
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