In a rare case of Apple frankness, the company has allowed a PR person to make a statement to BusinessWeek about the recent Microsoft “Laptop Hunters” ad campaign. Don’t read to fast, or you’ll miss it: “A PC is no bargain when it doesn’t do what you want,” Apple spokesman Bill Evans told BusinessWeek, “The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price.” That’s it. Just thought you’d like to know.
Once again we are back to the whole point that I do not understand, why is Microsoft doing this ad, when Apple is really competing with HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo, etc.
Sure Apple can argue the quality angle, which does work, but it merely provides them a niche market. Consumers taken as a whole have pretty much decided that $2800 is not what they will spend for a computer, and if Apple does not fill that demand others will do so, and have done so.
Really, I just see this whole campaign as such a waste of money, better spent elsewhere. Even an upgrade to the coffee machines would be a better investment.
Yes, but these OEMs are sort of tied to Windows. Most of their computers ship with Vista nowadays. So there is a relationship.
This is true, and also another problem is OS X itself. I have a friend who is gay, artist and has a Mac, he’s very happy with his computer for his job designing creative stuff, but there are several things he can’t achieve easily. When it comes to utilities, the Mac doesn’t have a huge choice of software.
Yes, Apple doesn’t really have competitors on the high-end market except maybe Sony VAIO? I’m not even sure because for the same price, I prefer a VAIO
…and that says everything about target group of users of Apple products!
.
Really? Maybe you’d like to explain more.
Omg why the vote down?? Normally a smile and a “One eye blink” means it’s just a joke, so why should he care to explain? If you don’t get it, don’t take it too serious and move on….
Thanks for the advice and for explaining how Smileys work. Let me guess, from your patronizing attitude, outrage at someone being modded down and OCD-like compulsion to respond to a post that wasn’t aimed at you that you’re… a Linux user?
Hey it was just a joke !-)
Simply because more Macs mean fewer Microsft (Windows) software sales.
not nessicarily, I know plenty of people with macs and windows installed.
Just out of curiosity, how much would it cost for a Windows user to buy software of equivalent functions to everything in the iLife and iWork suites? I’m not a mac user, so I don’t know fully what’s in either of them.
<em>A lot</em>. There’s very little that compares equally, without paying a hefty amount that then goes that bit over. Picassa is near enough iPhoto, but as far as iMovie? No, I really don’t know. iMovie’09 is just something else for entry level video editing — and if anybody dares say “zOMG Windows Movie Maker!”, I’m going to shoot them in the face.
ZOMG, PiTiVi!
… oh wait, wrong OS fight
Picasa is far superior to iPhoto.
Edited 2009-04-16 23:00 UTC
Far superior is an exaggeration. Picassa is very good. It’s not FAR superior and it’s not far inferior either. Both are similar. I think that iPhoto 09 is now ahead. Next picassa will probably be ahead again.
I haven’t seen iPhoto 09 yet. Having used both extensively, Picasa is considerably more powerful than iPhoto when it comes to editing and organizing photos.
My business partner uses iMovie quite a bit, although he’s stuck with iMovie 6 due to the ways 08 was crippled (and 09, to a lesser extent). It appears that that was a fairly frequent criticism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMovie#Criticism_of_iMovie_.2708
Personally, I prefer Avidemux (in OS X or Windows).
It is pretty crappy as a video editor, although I was surprised to find out that it does a half-decent job of creating simple photo slideshows (better than PowerPoint, amusingly).
Thats not even talking GarageBand. Only product I know of in the same niche and calibur of GarageBand 09 is Ableton Live, which is not a cheap bit of software.
I don’t know if it matters. I mean iLife/iWork may be nice software, but a lot of people don’t need them or already have equivalent software. How much is iWork worth when you already have to buy Microsoft Office for compatibility reasons? How much is iMovie worth when you have no interest in video editing?
Actually, this type of comparison is pervasive when people are talking about Apple vs. Windows PCs. Someone will take say the MacBook pro and try to create an equivalent Windows machine. What they don’t realize is that most people don’t need a MacBook pro. Most people can do fine with a $600 laptop, which Apple doesn’t even come close to competing with.
Bottom line: it’s not about the value of the total package you offer; it’s about whether you’re selling what the customer needs. Macs might be great value and still not a “good deal” because they far surpass what people actually need their computers to do.
iWork is compatible with MS Office applications. I just bought a 5 computer license of iWork for $129. How much would you have to pay Microsoft for 5 copies of MS Office?
Agreed, that’s why I bought a MacBook for $1200. Now add all the extra costs to this PC, so we can compare properly
Uh… what?
It’s TOTALLY about the value of the package. What can you do with a PC that doesn’t have any software? Bottom line: you have to buy lots of extra software to make a PC as functional as a Mac.
The problem is, after you spend all the extra cash for anti-virus and apps you still end up with Windows! Most Mac users buy a Mac for OS X (which is stable and secure) and the free apps that come with it.
There is no ‘package’ with a PC, you build your own (and pay for it). With a Mac, it’s a functional package out of the box!
Edited 2009-04-16 22:37 UTC
Or you could get 5 copies of OpenOffice for $0, but I’m not sure Microsoft would stress that fact in their adds 🙂
Piracy is probably Microsoft’s biggest friend in today’s market. If every pirate suddenly decided to use Linux instead (or some other legal choice that costs the same as FREE), then not enough people would be using Windows to justify buying a copy
.
Compatible is a stretch of the truth; its compatible as so long as you’re doing incredibly basic documents.
I have a copy of Office 2008 Home & Student Edition which came with 3 licences – so for me, I have an iMac and MacBook. For most people I know I’ve yet to come across a person with more than three computers in a house.
One thing does confuse me is the nature of how they define non-commercial use – if the computer is a home computer where the primary purpose is non-commercial but the mother or father brings home work occasionally to finish it off, is it violation of the licence? or is non-commercial simply the setting in which the computer resides and the primary purpose of the software rather than any possible uses that come from it?
True, hence I can’t work out why Lauren of these compared a workstation replacement (MacBook Pro) to a consumer level laptop.
The kid with the Sony laptop; I saw the exact same one down at Noel Leemings, and there is only a $200 difference between a Macbook unibody and that Sony. The only thing missing is BluRay which quite frankly has been so far in NZ all hype and no delivery. BluRay might get the customers into the store but most end up walking out with a DVD player because when they compare they can’t honestly tell the difference.
Plus, when was the last time you watched a DVD or BluRay on your laptop? the only movies most people I know watch on their laptops using the laptop screen are porno’s; any other situation they hook their laptop up to their TV or they put the DVD/BluRay disc in their player hooked up to their tv.
I know for me in the 6months I’ved owned both an iMac and MacBook I haven’t watched a DVD on either of them. Any movies I watch – I have downloaded (Fora.tv being the primary place I download documentaries from).
Edited 2009-04-17 04:11 UTC
iWork is compatible with MS Office applications. I just bought a 5 computer license of iWork for $129. How much would you have to pay Microsoft for 5 copies of MS Office?
Is iWork “MS Office compatible” compatible or is it “OpenOffice.org compatible” compatible? If you get my drift. Sometimes 98% file format compatibility doesn’t cut it.
What they don’t realize is that most people don’t need a MacBook pro. Most people can do fine with a $600 laptop, which Apple doesn’t even come close to competing with.
Agreed, that’s why I bought a MacBook for $1200. Now add all the extra costs to this PC, so we can compare properly
You keep staring at the maximum limits of functionality both machines deliver and yes, a Mac might be capable of doing more, but that is not the point. It is about what you will actually use of the functionality available.
Bottom line: it’s not about the value of the total package you offer; it’s about whether you’re selling what the customer needs.
Uh… what?
It’s TOTALLY about the value of the package. What can you do with a PC that doesn’t have any software? Bottom line: you have to buy lots of extra software to make a PC as functional as a Mac.
You are not reading. The OP said that most people don’t need $1200 Mac functionality. So the $600 gives most people a base package (Hardware, OS + MS Works most likely). Add some extra software like AV and some other minor odds and ends and the total price will still be far beneath $1200.
The problem is, after you spend all the extra cash for anti-virus and apps you still end up with Windows!
Some people are comfortable with Windows. For all its warts Windows is still a quite capable platform.
Most Mac users buy a Mac for OS X (which is stable and secure) and the free apps that come with it.
Yes, and most people who buy $600 laptops do so because it comes with Windows and a basic set of apps that do what they need. They don’t need the overkill of functionality that comes with iLife and iWorks.
Besides, the apps that come with the Mac are hardly for free. There is a reason you had to pay $1200 for that Macbook.
There is no ‘package’ with a PC, you build your own (and pay for it). With a Mac, it’s a functional package out of the box!
Yes, Mac is prebuilt from end to end and you pay handsomely for that. For some that is great value and a good deal. For others, the value add of Apple’s preselecting isn’t that needed. For some with the right know how, all the out of the box configuring from Apple is a luxury. Nice to have, but luxuries are something one indulges in. Not indulging can save money.
Then there are those people who put a for free and free (as in speech) Unix-like OS on a bog standard PC (same hardware as Apple) and get equivalent functionality free of cost, albeit with a little less polish.
Before anyone says that it’s only free if your time is worthless… For me, my time isn’t worthless, but there are two things of benefit to this. One, the time spent on learning how to do stuff myself is bolstering my skills. Two, I don’t have to pay myself for the time spent on computing.
And you don’t need anti-virus in OSX?
It would be difficult given that the price would be subjective to the end users requirements. But I’d say that if they were a software company they would probably have to sell each component individually rather than a package because the price would be too high. You’d probably be looking at US$70-US$80 for iPhoto with the larger packages probably over US$100, so the total package might end up adding up to around US$500 at least.
PS: I don’t know who marked your post down given that your post was an honest inquiry as to the nature of how one would break down the price if it were a stand alone product that was made by an independent company.
Edited 2009-04-17 03:58 UTC
When I made my post I was thinking in terms of expensive proprietary software vs iLife and iWork. Although there are cheaper (and even free) alternatives, in my head I was already matching up iMovie against Sony Vegas, iWork against MS Office (yes, I know, OpenOffice is good. I use it
). Maybe someone detected the faint snideness that I was feeling a little off to the side of consciousness 
. I can see why I was marked down though: apologists and fanatics always crawl out of the woodworks to defend whatever it is they’re a fan of; particularly Microsoft and Apple. People defend them more than they defend political parties and football teams!
If I wanted to be REALLY snide about it though, I could weigh up the cost of equivalent Linux software
There isn’t much with the level of polish I’d expect from Apple, but there are serviceable alternatives for almost anything.
I tend to try and take every inquiry as the result of an innocent curiosity rather than the result of any particular of a agenda of a particular nefarious nature. At the end of the day, unless the tone of the post is so blatantly obvious I try to take the optimistic view that the user might not know rather than there being particular agenda.
At the end of the day it is about weighing up what your requirements are versus what a given application can deliver to the end user. One obviously can’t presume as the the nature of another mans requirements so the best one can do is project his own requirements to the heavens (in this case osnews.com) and do a comparison.
For me iLife provides a great array of applications that address the issues I need addressing coupled with the strong integration between Mac OS X technologies and the application itself – but for someone else they may have no interest and thus the issue of ilife being included may be to him a waste of space.
Thus we come to the conclusion that the whole debating which is superior or inferior is stupid because the basic core of the argument comes down to a subjective experience based on a small set of requirements which the end user requires addressing to justify the purchase.
The applications are useless unless you use them, but anyway:
iLife:
iPhoto – Picasa, free.
iMovie – Moviemaker, free.
Garageband – No idea what alternatives exist, probably some free, there is some for Linux and Windows (?) which cost quite a bit less than Reason and such, like around 100 dollar.
iWeb – May exist free alternatives, it’s not really good. Frontpage?
iWork:
Pages – I guess the best choice would be OpenOffice but not exactly similar, free.
Numbers – I guess the best choice would be OpenOffice but not exactly similar, free.
Keynote – I guess the best choice would be OpenOffice but not exactly similar, free.
Openoffice probably works just fine for most people but it’s more of an office copy than an iwork copy. iPhoto is quite crappy, imovie is very simple, iweb is also very limited and outputs crap. Garageband is the only titel which is supposed to actually be quite good, but that only helps if you do music and want to use it.
frontpage only saves in mshtml and doesn’t get updated anymore since 2006
movie maker is garbage
Yes, apple is right. A cheap PC will not meet your needs unless all you want to do is watch YouTube and check you email (just don’t open any attachments as protecting a PC from viruses costs extra).
To make a cheap PC work well you need good software, which is NOT included with a PC, but IS with a Mac.
A cheap PC also comes with Windows and all the hassle that comes along with that.
And so far PC maker’s attempt at the the high end market has also failed: http://gizmodo.com/5205524/dell-adamo-full-review-macho-outside-sis…
Edited 2009-04-16 21:59 UTC
Except that once you have linux on the computer, it is cheaper than either, and does far more, without having to pay any extra for new software.
You also seem to be forgetting the great range of free software available for all platforms, there is no need to ever pay for software anymore.
And antivirus?
ClamAV is all I can say, it works great on any OS, and has one of the best detection rates and largest databases.
It’s FLOSS.
Except that you get lucky if you can actually get Linux installed and have everything work.
And don’t give me any BS about Linux being ready for the desktop. I’ve been installing distros for over 10 years and have yet to see a distro that runs correctly on my hardware. It’s always comes down to one thing or another that is a royal pains in the ass.
OS X works! I’ll pay more any day to have a computer that actually WORKS properly.
I’m just gonna call BS on that right there. You can’t be bothered to Pick out hardware for Linux or buy a machine that comes preloaded with it, so you pick up a Mac??
I mean I can’t get OSX onto my machine without hacking it up and then it doesn’t really work right.
Now thats not to discount what you said, if Linux doesn’t work on your hardware use something else. But your argument here was just lame.
…and still doesn’t work correctly on your hardware – but only on the hardware specifically designed for it. And even if a Mac is your hardware, there’s no point in comparing Mac OS X and Linux, because Mac OS X is specifically optimised for your hardware, while Linux is not.
But I don’t want substitutes to Office, iTunes any of the applications I like. What good is it giving me an operating system that can’t run any of the applications I like natively?
Like? OpenOffice.org with the hundreds of thousands of bugs in the bug database that are never going to get fixed. The thousands of abandon-ware projects that die leaving a user high and dry. People purchase software because they want stability knowing that the programmers are going to continue developing and maintaining.
You might have an aversion to purchasing software but my time is money; I can’t afford to be wasting time wondering why something doesn’t work and getting shafted between the maintainers of the application and the distributors who have hacked it up with custom patches.
The evidence says otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ClamAV#Comparisons
AV-Test (2008)
On-demand: very poor
False positives: poor
On-access: poor
Response time: very good
Rootkits: very poor
Edited 2009-04-17 04:25 UTC
AVG, anyone? Last I checked, AVG Free is still, well, free. There’s also the free version of Avast, although I’m not particularly fond of it.
Just a guess, but I’m pretty sure that’s not the only high-end PC available.
Yes, apple is right. A cheap PC will not meet your needs unless all you want to do is watch YouTube and check you email (just don’t open any attachments as protecting a PC from viruses costs extra).
Not necessarily true. Let’s get a hypothetical Home PC with Windows Vista Home Premium, for $699.
Hardware and OS are covered.
Antivirus — AVG or Avast = free of charge.
Photo software — Picasa = free of charge.
Video Editor — MovieMaker? = free of charge for Windows.
Video Converter — Handbrake = free of charge.
Musicplayer — WMP = free of charge for Windows.
Webbrowser — IE8 = free of charge for Windows.
Anti-spyware — Windows Defender = free of charge for Windows.
Office Suite — OpenOffice.org = free of charge.
Drawing program — Paint.Net = free of charge.
Audio recorder — Audacity = free of charge.
Functionality doesn’t have to cost a thing.
To make a cheap PC work well you need good software, which is NOT included with a PC,
Easily and legally downloadable.
but IS with a Mac.
Yes, but at a hefty premium. (Never mind that almost all consumer grade computers are x86 machines nowadays, including the kit form Apple, so they are all “cheap PC’s”).
A cheap PC also comes with Windows and all the hassle that comes along with that.
Depends where you buy it. If you buy your PC from Apple (it’s x86), you get OS X. If you buy your system from ZaReason, you get Ubuntu Linux. Choice enough, not all x86 machines run Windows.
And so far PC maker’s attempt at the the high end market has also failed: http://gizmodo.com/5205524/dell-adamo-full-review-macho-outside-sis…..
It is never good to slavishly copy your competitors. Dell needs to create something unique. A Macbook Air clone is doomed to play second fiddle.
Edited 2009-04-17 14:37 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJSuduTrPs&feature=player_embedded
Quite a clever response to MS ads =)
Awesome! He’d rather have the $1000 than have to buy a crappy plastic PC!
In reality a Mac is pricey but like I tell my friends its the difference between a Hyundai and a Lexus. Both get you from point A to point B. These days a Hyundai looks pretty nice and more people can afford one then a Lexus.
The difference is that the Lexus has better fit and finish, lasts longer and has a way better resell value. And like with the Mac people WISH they could afford one and will get one if they can!
The kicker with the Windows machine is that you can get one cheap, but when you get that virus (Cause 90% of people never pay for the included Norton Antivirus etc) or spyware or Trojan and have to call me to fix it at $50 an hour or take it to Best Buy and have to pay $100 just to have it looked at. That cheap price all of a sudden doesn’t look so good.
And I know people will get on here and say they been running their Windows machines for 20 years with no Anti Virus and never had a problem etc. Yes a lot of people drive a Hyundai for years no problem. But a lot of people do have problems as do a lot of normal everyday Windows users esp those with kids!
But you tend not to have that problem with a Mac. They run like clocks. They last forever, they look cool, they stay running fast for years and you can sell them for a good price when they get old.
I’m not getting sucked into your car analogy, but the internal components, the physical parts, of a Mac and PC are identical. What you’re paying extra for, the “Apple” name brand and ability to run OSX out-of-the-box.
Argue whether that’s good or bad, but don’t try to tell me that Apple computers are categorically higher quality machines than PCs when they’re the exact same.
Hummmmm, that works perfect for my car analogy because cars have almost the same parts also. So even if you compare a Toyota and a Lexus which are made by the same company the highest end Toyota is still not the same as the lowest end Lexus.
Having the same parts does not make for the same quality. Like I said the fit and finish of a high end Dell is not the same as the fit and finish of the 20 inch iMac or a Mac Book. Sorry but its not. The Apple fit and finish is better. I mean like you said why would I buy a Lexus over a Toyota which is made by the same company?? Why would I buy a Mac over a PC? Why would someone buy an iPod over the other 50 MP3 players out there including the Zune, or the iPhone over the Google G1.
1. Fit and finish.
2. Look and feel.
3. Resale value.
Apple has never had competitive prices on any of their products. Only thing close is the iPhone 3G cause it’s subsidized. Yet iPhones and iPods sell great and Macs are doing well. That goes to the cool factor and quality factor.
Back to cars, also the Engine (In this case Windows and Mac OS) is different. No matter what you want to say people have a better experience with Mac OS. Most people that move to Mac don’t go back.
Oh one last thing on parts being the same and different.
If you look at a Mac Laptop the things that are the same are:
Ram
CPU
Video
Hard drive.
But:
Case
Screen
Battery
Mother board
Power Cord
Are different. And that makes a difference.
I just have to weigh in on that one with my own observations. I know three people who own Macs, all of which are less than 2 years old. Two of them have had to get theirs serviced due to performance slowing to the point of unusability, and none of the optimisation/repair tricks recommended by online sources or Apple support have helped. One of those two also had to be repaired within its first few months due to the battery overheating and badly melting the casing.
Of course I know a great many more owners of PCs, but if two-thirds of them have had issues of that severity (requiring professional assistance) in a 2-year period then I haven’t heard about it. I realise this is not very scientific, but I find it hard to buy the “build-quality” part of your case based on my own experience.
Hummmm, as of last polling at the end of 2008 Apple had a 85% customer satisfaction rating.
Hewlett-Packard (73), Gateway (72), and Compaq (70) each sink 4%. The exception is Dell – up 1% to
75.
Apple has a 10% lead on Dell in customer satisfaction.
http://www.theacsi.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18…
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Linux, Mac and Windows all have their place in the world. Each does somethings well that the others don’t.
Garageband is probably the best software that is included with the Macintosh, but almost nobody uses its full capabilities. It tends to get used as a replacement for Sound Recorder, and sometimes the user goes so far as to chop the beginning and end of the recording. That’s it!
All other programs have free alternatives that work approximately as well, for Linux definitely and probably for Windows too. I say “approximately” because each program has strengths and weaknesses, but all things considered they are as good as eachother.
IMO, it comes down to what are you doing. Yeah, I would love to own a MacBook and I will own one soon. But if all a user is doing is checking E-Mail and Surfing the web, a $600 PC is perfectly fine. But for those of us that are programmers, web designers, graphic artists, movie editors and such, a Mac is a better choice. For entry level they are perfect because they come with all the software you need to get started for only $1200 for an iMac or MacBook. Step up to the G5 series and you’ve invested in a machine that will not need to be upgraded for 5 to 8 years, depending on your needs. I just recently sold my G5 with Photoshop CS and Flash CS3 because I no longer used it for what it was purchased for. But then again, I paid nothing for it from a friend who just simply wanted a G5 with intel processors, only 6 months old too!
It really comes down to what you plan to do with it. Normal end users don’t need all the extras normally so an entry level PC is fine. Especially if you can do without MS Office and just use wordpad for all document writing or use OpenOffice. But you’ll need another $150 for Office basic if you have to have office. But Macs aren’t typically based towards the dumb-thumb user. They are based towards a niche, the editor, the programmer, the anyone who needs something to last a long time and still be worth a darn. Macs are more billed towards high-end users that require specific software and/or hardware needs. That’s where this argument goes.
Simply said, you will not be able to buy a new PC at any price level with the software you get on a Mac. Even if you buy a cheap PC and purchase all the extra software, you will still end up with a PC that has less processing power than a Mac and still cost more. Buy a cheap PC if you need something now for only surfing the net or checking E-Mail, buy a Mac if you want something to do real work on. Or buy a good PC with no OS and go Linux! Sorry, I’m a linux guy, had to throw that in.
Would the Eee PC make a good “customer choice” for Microsoft’s next ad? A college kid walks into an Apple store with $400…
The EeePC mini-computers are selling very well and are surprisingly functional. Considering the weight, battery life, and price, Apple has nothing comparable. The iPhone maybe?
I’m not about to argue which is ‘best’, a $350 EeePC or a $1000 Apple, but it would be an effective subject for Microsoft’s current advertisement campaign.
Anyway, just throwing out the idea in case anyone from Microsoft is reading…
Edited 2009-04-17 16:11 UTC