OSNews:

OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/21765/_QtWebKit_KPart_Is_Not_the_Answer_for_Konqueror_ Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:11:03 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif OSNews.com http://www.osnews.com Other views http://osnews.com/thread?371305 http://osnews.com/thread?371305 There are several blog posts about the khtml/webkit saga recently, which you saw if you read planetkde:

http://planetkde.org/

Here they are for the lazy:

aseigo: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/07/webkit.html

Actual khtml dev: http://vtokarev.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/being-a-khtml-developer/

(that one makes an interesting point - why should he be working on webkit for free, when there are so many paid developers doing the same thing for pay?)

http://blog.gwright.org.uk/articles/2009/07/01/qtwebkit-vs-khtml-ag...

http://darktears.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/my-only-blog-post-about-k... Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (vivainio) Comments Comment by makkus http://osnews.com/thread?371306 http://osnews.com/thread?371306 I find it very funny that one of the main arguments for KDE was/is reusable code. After KDE4 I think we can safely scratch that argument.Edited 2009-07-02 12:37 UTC Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (makkus) Comments How to Unbundle Konqueror.... http://osnews.com/thread?371307 http://osnews.com/thread?371307 Oh This is open source forum ...
but Linux distribution = bundled software..
EU..Are you looking into these bundled distros.....
No. because for how much you can sue a distro??? Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (rakamaka) Comments KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371310 http://osnews.com/thread?371310 If KDE decides to move across to Webkit, they need to at least continue to support KHTML.

I will not use Webkit. Its biggest single developer is Apple, and Apple does not have a good track record for writing secure software. Apple's operating system has well-known design flaws that cause worrying security problems; as they are design flaws they cannot be fixed by "a patch" without breaking application compatibility.

I also have to put my hand up and say that KHTML currently works for everything I've tried it on. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (3rdalbum) Comments RE: Other views http://osnews.com/thread?371311 http://osnews.com/thread?371311 This post started it all:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3995

I have to agree with some comments that the KHTML devs are actually hurting KDE as a whole.

Complex web apps will never work in KHTML and giving people the illusion that that might change is bad. KHTML is a dead end. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kragil) Comments I have an answer http://osnews.com/thread?371312 http://osnews.com/thread?371312 I installed Google Chromium on my eee PC 701... the speed is incredible, it makes firefox eat dust. And it works much, much better than Konqueror, or QtWebkit.
I do not mind it is a gtk app, it behaves like .. well like itself, you will only notice gtk on open/save dialogs.

But anyway, KDE should drop KHTML, it is very outdated, webkit will be the best html engine very soon, it not already. Those who fear apple seems to have little knowledge of the webkit organization. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (protomank) Comments RE: How to Unbundle Konqueror.... http://osnews.com/thread?371314 http://osnews.com/thread?371314 The problem you speak of is the MS monopoly for desktop PCs. As KDE does not have a dominant position on the desktop market it can ship a bundled browser. The same goes for Apple by the way. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (jokkel) Comments A QtWebKit Browser for KDE is the Only Answer http://osnews.com/thread?371330 http://osnews.com/thread?371330

"KDE needs as an entire project to support a Web browser that everyone can use in 2009."

Hooray. The penny has dropped. Sort of.

If Konqueror and KHTML were up to the job then all this furore about getting a decent and workable browser in terms of viewing websites out there reliably would have been sorted 'years' ago. They clearly aren't and never have been. Funnily enough, it's why all the sensible people who actually started KHTML, like Lars Knoll and George Stalkos, seemingly moved on and started working with QtWebKit. That's no reflection on the effort the KHTML guys are putting in, but it's a question of getting something that works reasonably.

I'm really not surprised at all that Konqueror has turned out to be more KHTML specific than anyone thought, and I've found Konqueror to be a functionally poor browser for a very long time. Certainly as a web browser it's high time it was just put out to pasture and a browser built for the purpose of real-world browsing with a decent framework, perhaps based on Arora as a starting point, where plugins and various other things could just work well or at least have a fighting chance.

Anything less than that is just hurting all of the good groundwork that has gone into KDE 4. Applications, applications, applications - and the big one of them is a working browser that people can browse the web with. Yep, even on Windows ;-). Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum) Comments Sounds like it's time for a new one http://osnews.com/thread?371331 http://osnews.com/thread?371331 With such a mess on their hands, why not port an existing code base. It seems like chromium is a prime target for a proper QT port. Make the UI look like Konqueror, add the moniker, and be done with it. Why bother with obsolete code? Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (CaptainN-) Comments Mathml http://osnews.com/thread?371332 http://osnews.com/thread?371332 /me is wondering WHEN (or if ?) the webkit guys are ever going to start implementing mathml support into webkit.

The argument that there aren't that much mathml webpages is irrelevant as Webkit isn't a webbrowser, it is an engine that is used by huge projects that could profit from it, like
Safari and os X (Apple)
Android/Chromium/Chrome (Google),
and by zillions of very various apps that use it to display stuff
http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/Applications%20using%20WebKit

Come on Webkit guys ! Firefox, opera and internet have been supporting that standard technology for years...
There are some opensource engines that can render it and that you can use for inspiration...
Yet the webkit mathml projects has stayed in the planing phase for the last three years....

Damn ! Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Koakuma) Comments RE: Sounds like it's time for a new one http://osnews.com/thread?371334 http://osnews.com/thread?371334 Konqueror is much much more than a webbrowser, for better or worse, its more a shell for document viewers. It uses KIO to fetch documents and then KParts to show them in various ways. Meaning I can view a pdf in konqueror as if it were a slimmed down version of okular, the kde document viewer (pdf, dvi, etc). When you click a link to a txt file it opens the text editor/viewer part, same as an image, video, etc etc. While nice in some aspects its really an app that tries to do too much and does none of them especially well.

The best route KDE can go is to go the dolphin route, make an application, that while still highly integrated, is much more web browser centric and tries to be less of a jack of all trades like konqueror. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (TheMonoTone) Comments I've nearly given up http://osnews.com/thread?371335 http://osnews.com/thread?371335 Well, that sucks if it's accurate. The browser is arguably the single most important program on a desktop today, and it bugs me that it's also the only non-kde app I use on my desktop. I keep hoping the webkit kpart will improve, because it seems 'so' close to being usable. And khtml/kjs....sorry, they're just not an option for me. Slow, incompatible, and not seeming like they're going to be changing that any time soon.

Like someone above, I'm using chromium on linux right now because that pre-alpha is actually better at rendering pages than konq is. And that's a pretty sad statement.

I don't want to seem like I'm not grateful for all the hard work that's gone into khtml. It got us to webkit in the first place. But it's clinging to a dead horse at this point.

Is there any work going on right now in making a kde (not just qt) based browser using webkit? Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (emerson999) Comments RE: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371340 http://osnews.com/thread?371340 Care to enumerate some of that track record? Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (modmans2ndcoming) Comments Comment by kaiwai http://osnews.com/thread?371341 http://osnews.com/thread?371341 I know it sounds naive of me but if the problem is that Konqueror is too dependent on KHTML then the solution is to rip out that portion relating to KHTML so that it is re-written to make webkit calls or better still, make it so that the calls are to an abstracted layer which allows Konqueror to be blind to the underlying rendering engine.

What ever the case maybe it seems that KDE developers are grasping at straws; if Konqueror is too dependent on KHTML, then rip out that part of the code and re-write it making calls to webkit. It isn't as though they're adverse to the idea of throwing out large chunks of code given the 4.x fiasco. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (kaiwai) Comments RE: Mathml http://osnews.com/thread?371342 http://osnews.com/thread?371342 MathML is the most horrid way to create mathematical formulas. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (modmans2ndcoming) Comments RE[2]: Mathml http://osnews.com/thread?371346 http://osnews.com/thread?371346 I don't think the idea was ever to use mathML to write formulas by hand. You use whatever tool you prefer (be it a GUI tool or a markup language like TeX) and then some software translates that into MathML which is easy for viewers to render. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (dagw) Comments RE[2]: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371348 http://osnews.com/thread?371348 They had two vulnerabilities in WebKit that allowed that one guy to win the Pwn2Own contest two years in a row. That's a HUGE number of vulnerabilities, especially compared to historically secure platforms like Internet Explorer.

In all seriousness, the WebKit team is pretty good at applying patches that people send in, but they have very little control over Safari's release schedule, since that depends more on Safari's proprietary interface and Apple's marketing schemes.

Any open source browser effort that uses WebKit is free to perform its own security vetting. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (DaveDavtropen) Comments RE: Comment by kaiwai http://osnews.com/thread?371353 http://osnews.com/thread?371353

I know it sounds naive of me but if the problem is that Konqueror is too dependent on KHTML then the solution is to rip out that portion relating to KHTML so that it is re-written to make webkit calls or better still

It depends on what "too dependent of KHTML" means. If it means, that there are 10 small classes where there are deep dependencies on KHTML, then sure. If it means, almost every part of Konqueror has deep dependencies on KHTML, then no. If this is the case, then your approach would the equivalent of making a plaid shirt one colour by cutting out all the non-red fragments and replacing them with red patches. Sure you could do it, but you'd end up with a shirt that was more patches than shirt. There comes a point when you either have to accept that you have to accept legacy for what it is, or dump legacy and start from scratch.

I don't know what's the case here, but even if the decision is to keep legacy, this doesn't have to be bad. It could be just another case where the The Bolden Rule (i.e. "If you can't fix it, feature it.") can apply. Okay, KHTML isn't as extensive as Webkit. That's a feature. It's not supposed to be any more than elinks is supposed to be anything other than a text mode web interface. Using the Bolden Rule, KHTML can focus on being more secure and lighter and even included desktop specific features. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (g2devi) Comments RE[2]: Other views http://osnews.com/thread?371363 http://osnews.com/thread?371363

I have to agree with some comments that the KHTML devs are actually hurting KDE as a whole.

Complex web apps will never work in KHTML and giving people the illusion that that might change is bad. KHTML is a dead end.

You can't blame KDE for trying to build a full desktop environment with a web browser and everything, but you can blame the distributions, they pick the defaults for users. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (nifgraup) Comments RE: Comment by kaiwai http://osnews.com/thread?371368 http://osnews.com/thread?371368 The comment that Konqueror is too dependent on KHTML has been called into question:

http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=124654914508070&w=...

(for everyone who doesn't follow KDE development: David is usually bang-on when it comes to technical matters, and I'm inclined to trust him on this).

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that some of the web-specific plugins (the DOM-viewer in particular) being KHTML-specific, though. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (GeneralZod) Comments RE[3]: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371386 http://osnews.com/thread?371386

They had two vulnerabilities in WebKit that allowed that one guy to win the Pwn2Own contest two years in a row. That's a HUGE number of vulnerabilities, especially compared to historically secure platforms like Internet Explorer.

In all seriousness, the WebKit team is pretty good at applying patches that people send in, but they have very little control over Safari's release schedule, since that depends more on Safari's proprietary interface and Apple's marketing schemes.

Any open source browser effort that uses WebKit is free to perform its own security vetting.

You better include Opera, Firefox, IE7/8 and everyone else in those exploits. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tyrione) Comments RE[2]: Sounds like it's time for a new one http://osnews.com/thread?371388 http://osnews.com/thread?371388

Konqueror is much much more than a webbrowser, for better or worse, its more a shell for document viewers. It uses KIO to fetch documents and then KParts to show them in various ways. Meaning I can view a pdf in konqueror as if it were a slimmed down version of okular, the kde document viewer (pdf, dvi, etc). When you click a link to a txt file it opens the text editor/viewer part, same as an image, video, etc etc. While nice in some aspects its really an app that tries to do too much and does none of them especially well.

The best route KDE can go is to go the dolphin route, make an application, that while still highly integrated, is much more web browser centric and tries to be less of a jack of all trades like konqueror.

Safari renders PDF via Preview.app as a Service in OS X. The same goes for images, etc.

There is no reason Qt 4.5/4.6 can't help in the Services department and allow that interaction being lightweight for a non-Konqueror/WebKit compliant browser.

AS you noted, Dolphin is the File Manager. Slow as hell, but the file manager nonetheless. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (tyrione) Comments RE[3]: Mathml http://osnews.com/thread?371405 http://osnews.com/thread?371405 I guess. Might as well just have a backend latex compiler. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (modmans2ndcoming) Comments RE[4]: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371406 http://osnews.com/thread?371406 since it was a Flash vulnerability. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (modmans2ndcoming) Comments They should work on improving KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371481 http://osnews.com/thread?371481 I believe that KDE team should focus on KHTML development further, as KHTML is the only web rendering engine that:
1. isn't totally controlled by any corporation (which is a kind of risk itself);
2. is good enough to render most web sites correctly (excluding heavily-AJAXed ones and other ugly pieces);
3. is opensource.

When KHTML is good enough to be usable for as many sites as Google Chrome now is Konqueror should get refactored leaving user to choose the web renderer KPart from those based on KHTML, QtWebKit and XulRunner.

Diversity is a good thing, anyway.

P.S.: Still I wouldn't bet on KDE recovering from major upgrade they had. Too much both users and developers gone. Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (ddc_) Comments RE: They should work on improving KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371522 http://osnews.com/thread?371522 Where do you get the weird idea that there are many developers gone? More than the usual churn you have in any volunteer community? Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (boudewijn) Comments RE[3]: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371613 http://osnews.com/thread?371613

They had two vulnerabilities in WebKit that allowed that one guy to win the Pwn2Own contest two years in a row.

Correction. It was a vulnerability in Safari on a Mac, with the Mac being as helpful as possible in the process. Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum) Comments RE[4]: KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?371724 http://osnews.com/thread?371724

You better include Opera, Firefox, IE7/8 and everyone else in those exploits.

Why? It was made perfectly clear that those came about because of the ease with which Safari and the Mac allows you to assume certain things. Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (segedunum) Comments RE[3]: Sounds like it's time for a new one http://osnews.com/thread?371873 http://osnews.com/thread?371873 Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the "slowness" of Dolphin - I prefer Konqueror for file browsing any time.

Having said that . . . actions initiated in Dolphin like moving files and stuff execute fast enough, it's just that the UI is so slow, like right-click menus and previews.

Could anyone explain to Mr. Sixpack here in Korea why this is so? Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (fukudasan) Comments RE: They should work on improving KHTML http://osnews.com/thread?372004 http://osnews.com/thread?372004 What's up with th KDE comment?

That's gotta be an unsubstantiated claim. I mean they gained Nokia working on it now.

Ya big crazyEdited 2009-07-07 02:27 UTC Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (shaunehunter) Comments