http://www.osnews.com/story/2187/Review_of_Mandrake_Linux_ProSuite_Edition_9_0 Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2012, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:01:20 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Hmmmm... So much like the mandrakeclub, they want you to pay for more software but when you open it up, you find that the software that you just paid for is just demos that you can easily find online. Bastards. Maybe they ought to think about putting their efforts into creating a better OS instead of retarded business models. Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? What, you pay $175 for the thing and they dont even give you jewel cases? Just paper cd envelopes? You've got to be kidding me. All things considered, the price for this seems a bit high. Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Hell, OS X, SUE 8.1, and even Windows pro are all cheaper.

I own SuSE 8.1 pro, and I have to say it is truly much much better priced and definetely worth the $49 (I got the subscription plan, so it's only 49).

In fact SuSE probably had the best value for the money out of all the major disitributions Pro editions. It all also looked really attractive. SuSE is the best IMO, I can evens ent a support query rigt from YAST, that's convinient YAST IMO is one fo the ebst things ever invented, though it culd eba lot more user friendly and speedy, it outmaches all otehr tools in power. SuSE's update is also better, i already got KDE 3.0.5 thrugh YAST and a ton fo upgrades.

Check out my SUSE desktop too: http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=4030

Their widnow decoraton is so kick ass! Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Mandrake is still an old dog, peroid! Mandrake hasn't change anything, but just update version and fix small stuff. That's all what they are doing. Unlike, SuSE, RedHat and other main Linux distros that who are working on their butt off. Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Mandrake 9 Standart $30 or free download (iso)
Suse 8.1 Standart $39.95

Mandrake 9 Pro 69.95
Suse 8.1 Pro 79.95

Prices from their websites

And yes Mandrake ProSuite $199
some people like to spent money,so what!

You like Suse, fine go for it, i like Mandrake.
I do agree that they shouldn't put all the demos in the prosuite, but what the hell, i don't need prosuite. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? this is a sad little thread.

not helped much by the first four posters.

yawn. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? >Mandrake 9 Pro 69.95
>Suse 8.1 Pro 79.95

There is no such thing as Mandrake 9 PRO. Their next product is the PowerPak, which is not a server OS as SuSE 8.1 PRO and RH PRO is, but just a bumped-up Standard version with more CDs.
For me, ProSuite is the equivelant of SuSE's and RH's PRO versions. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Also, check out SuSE PRO's support, it is also 90 days as in ProSuite. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? i was about to rip Jason's little head off for not even spending 10 seconds to check prices (which he wouldn't because he's a suse fanboy and not really interested in checking his facts)

but i'm glad you did it, because i didn't have the strength.

dealing with the stupid masses wears me out.

i don't even know why i care, it's not like i'm a mandrake fan....i used it once on a dec alpha. yawn.

i'm outta here. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? My mistake, i still will recommend mandrake standard to my friends, but for those who need Pro-version, i will suggest Redhat or Suse. Thanx for the info Jason and Eugenia. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? SuSE's Pro is better and a lot cheaper. You can post a support query right from YAST and they usually have a little more indepth support, even though they aren't required to.

Furthermore you get more manuals, which I think are better written,a cd/dvd jewel case, stickers, brochures, attractive quiskstart, stickers and much more.

I also think SuSE's product is much much better looking than Mandrake's defauly butt ugly KDE. Don't tell me to download new ones, some of SuSE's gorgeous art like the window decorationa dn kicker tile for example, isn't available
online.

I like Mandrake's openess, but their product is not competitively priced and doesen't have mucha dded value. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? how come every review turns into a distro-zealot slug fest?

so you like mandrake best, that's cool...big deal...some people like SuSE better...some people like slack, some people like debian...some people (like myself) god forbid...like red hat

it's linux...most of it's the exact same thing just in a different package and some cosmetic differences...and there's room for all of them...if there stops being room for all of them, then the unneaded ones will disappear, simple as that

anyway...enough ranting and raving

-bytes256 Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? And you can't help being compared. If there were no comparrisons taht would mean we would all be using the same distribution, it is human nature and it is what fuels innovation. Live with it, if your distro is hurt in the process, too bad, tehy ened to improve.

All the distros do, more or less. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 03:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Windows XP Pro retail cost #300. The OEM verison varries from $70-$200. But I do agree they are overpriced. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Jason, that screen shot you posted has a very nice and sharp looking fonts. Have you done some tweaking by any chance or is that how the fonts look in SuSe Linux by default?

Sorry for going off topic in here. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? after trying both rh8 and md9, rh beats the pants off MD....:D Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? So ok, Windows XP cost approximatively the same than Mandrake Pro Suite. But with windows you only get the minesweeper. You have actually tp PAY for more softwate like :
Office (>100 $)
DVDreader (>25$)
PhotoEditing (>40$)

etc etc..Why does nobody think about THAT. Windows IS not cheap.

Oh BTW, Mandrake is a fine distribution. All linuxes aren't ready for juste install and roll, and some tweeking is needed. But Windows does to. The difference is that in windows you don't get any debug messages (like on /var/messages) in order to find you r problem. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? How much has Mandrake changed in the past few releases? Next to nothing. While its competitors have improved in leaps and bounds, they rarely change. If I present SuSE, Red Hat and Mandrake to a customer, ask them to try all three out and pick one, they would most probably pick either SuSE or Red Hat.

Just some suggestions for Mandrake, hope some Mandrakesoft employee hears this

- Desktop integration. Please, for crying out loud, pick a desktop. Most people, especially in the enterprise, don't care about 11 WMs. They want something that is completely integrated and works together.

For this purpose, I would suggest KDE. Not because it is my personal favourite (which, for now, happens to be GNOME 2.0), but because it is the fastest way to the market. One of the ways to integrate is to build Mandrake pref applets into KControl. This is where SuSE and to some extend Red Hat don't get too. Placing everything in a centralized place actually is a convienice to the user.

- Better installation. For many, this would be their first look on Mandrake in real. And Mandrake's installer looks completely unprofessional. Using the same widgets used in the default desktop would increase the look of professionalism.

Another problem with the installer is that it asks too much questions. Many of the questions is better asked after the installation (First Time Wizard, anyone?). The help message located on the bottom of the screen should be more helpful. Each choice, without looking at the help, should be well explained. Try to reduce on jargon, for example replace the word "root" with Administator.

- Competitive Egde. They should have their own looks. Currently, they are all around ugly. What I suggest is something like Keramik, which is original. Only unlike Keramik, use smaller widgets (less beveled, smaller shadow). You don't have to use your corporate colours inside the system on the buttons, icons etc. Red Hat's and SuSE's corporate colours is red and green respectively, but they don't use these colours in their UI look.

It is highly important that you should look different from the others. You must strenghten up your brandname so when someone sees Mandrake he wouldn't say "Hey, that's Linux!", instead, "Hey, that's Mandrake".

Other ways to improve their competitive egde is to make custom apps like those similar to iApps, a custom version of Mozilla that looks native in KDE, a custom version of OpenOffice.org that includes mroe features and also looks and feels native under KDE. Stuff like that. Mandrake-only stuff.

- MandrakeClub. Really, what it is currently is just cheap commercial software for Linux. What Mandrake should develop it into is something like Click And Run. There are many problems with CNR, if Mandrake fixes them all, it would be bliss.

MandrakeClub should be merged with MandrakeExpert and Mandrake User, Mandrake Forums, and Mandrake Online. Certain parts of the site would be pay only, the rest would be free. Plus, for software sales, it should be a way to retail software. In other words, it would be nice to have pay-as-you-download option. So if I only download CrossOver, I pay for that only.

The merge should perhaps be called either Mandrake Club or Mandrake Online.

- Improve their site. Personally, after Conectiva.com.br, Mandrake's network of sites is one of the worst designed ever. My suggestion is that Mandrake should remove the clutter from their website. Their main website should be at Mandrake.com. www.mandrakesoft.com/linux should be their product website. www.mandrake.com/developers should be development (Cooker) related topics. Stuff like that.

The site should be geared in quickly telling potential customers the BENEFITS (not features) of their product. They shouldn't target people that would be interested in the littlest of things like the kernel version.

- DON'T be bleeding edge. Mandrake should start their software freeze 6 months before release. Incorporate all patches as you can. You want a polish release. So what if the kernel is 6 months old? As long it doesn't give kernel panics, it is just fine. Now, just say they started development for Mandrake 9.1, and is using KDE 3.1. A month later, KDE 3.2 comes out. STICK with KDE 3.1.

Also, have long product cycles, preferably 18 months. Between the 18 months, continually patch up the current versions. You shouldn't bother about people who want the bleeding egde. They are not profitable. Get the untapped market.

- Make more partnerships. The problem with current Linux companies is that they want to do everything themselves. Make partnerships with ISVs. For example, license Red Carpet.

Also, don't always follow in the shadow of Red Hat. If it can get back the same amount of support they got in their peak, they could set their own standards.

Maybe I should write a article about this. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Maybe I should write a article about this.

Looks like you just did. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Listen to Rajan R,

He has written some of the things I have been thinking.

eg. The Mandrake installer asking too many questions.

If Rajan R has a job, too bad Mandrake. But if he doesn't you should give him a job pretty high up, making decisions. Because what he says makes sense.

I installed Mandrake 9.0 from CD's on the cover of a Comp. Magazine. It lasted 1 hour on my system.

They have all this great and available technology, they should ask themselves what should we do with it.

Be the innovator not the replicator. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Windows will not provide support for non-M$ software. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? I looked at the details on the web site:

http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/90/prosuite

There it's pretty obvious that:

1)The Star Office 6 is a full version, no demo
2)Suport includes web,mail,samba,ssh and FTP, so it's clearly not just installation support.

I don't have a ProSuite pack, I bought just the DVD, so I can't tell you whether you missed it on the box, but I suspect they would put it there.

Once again, a "wonderful", "insightful" "review" of a Mandrake distro. Clearly there is a hidden agenda here.

Also, when I looked on my DVD, the html documents there indicated the StarOffice 6.0 was full. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Mandrake never promised more software via the club, they only promised that you could get the stuff which was on the CDs (granted, most of it you can download, but not as RPMs with menu entries etc), for downloaders, and to support development more directly.

Does anybody here actually read. I'm starting to have my doubts! Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Hell, OS X, SUE 8.1, and even Windows pro are all cheaper.

You can't compare Windows 2000 Pro or XP to any "Pro" Linux distribution. You would have to compare it at least to a server version, which is at least 3 times more expensive than any of these distros.

I own SuSE 8.1 pro, and I have to say it is truly much much better priced and definetely worth the $49 (I got the subscription plan, so it's only 49).

Compare apples with apples please!! Prosuite subscription is $125 per version, and includes StarOffice 6.0 and a few other full packages. And I am not sure if the support would compare either.

In fact SuSE probably had the best value for the money out of all the major disitributions Pro editions. It all also looked really attractive. SuSE is the best IMO, I can evens ent a support query rigt from YAST, that's convinient YAST IMO is one fo the ebst things ever invented, though it culd eba lot more user friendly and speedy, it outmaches all otehr tools in power. SuSE's update is also better, i already got KDE 3.0.5 thrugh YAST and a ton fo upgrades.

All of this is subjective and debateable. rpmdrale/urpmi are fine, I am running KDE3.1 already just using those (but of course on cooker). 3.0.5 is out for 9.0 etc already, but currently "unsupported". Considering that Mandrake does have a smaller team, this is understandeable, but how many people *really* need anything but the security fixes?

Check out my SUSE desktop too: http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=4030

Their widnow decoraton is so kick ass!

Is this really that important? Mandrake has more features the directly affect useability. And how do we know what there is from the distro, when you have the Noia icons and other deco that is clearly post SuSE?? Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Americans (most distros are trying for that market that we talk about here) prefer Threes; they don't like too many choices. Example: Auto-Ford, GM, Crysler...Cable--ATT, TW, other...Pizza--Dominos, Little Ceasers, Hungry Howies.. The list goes on.

For the PC market Linux need to step up as #3 choice...MS, Apple, ????

MS is doing a favor by killing off Win9x; Apple is killing off OS 9. This provides an opening in ISV minds because the will precive 3 platforms as decent to support. Linux vendors need to quickly provide a unified front for consumer software. One easy way to steal customers would be to get Wine, etc. to a Win 98 level of functionality allowing Linux to be a cheap upgrade for older machines and games.

I see Lindows, Lycoris, and Xandros heading in the right direction with simple, standard Linux Subset configs that are tweaked to just work. Red Hat, Mandrake, and Suse are trying to provide massive Supersets of Linux with every possible option and from most of the reviews lately, don't really please any large group of people. Linux needs to consolidate "mindshare" to gain ground.

I am looking for something to replace my aging Win 98 boxes at work, and few of the distros really market to me. I don't care about hundreds of programs with lots of options, just prove to me that what I need it to do will work. (Lycoris Office Productivity pack is looking like what I want at this point.) If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be looking to buy something. I'd just roll my own; but I can't do that yet.

The more I look around, the more I see Linux being ready for daily business users. Only a few people are marketing it properly though. Also, I think there should be a push for retail box space. Really, a chain store like CompUSA only carries several dozen grade A Windows Apps. Most of the shelf space is $20 cheap gadget stuff and games. Perhaps if the Wine group could come up with a compatibility sticker to slap on some boxes that the stuff would work on linux, or a suite for ISVs that would check wine compatibility more people would be willing to switch. Transgamming seems to be doing well in that direction, but they need to advertize it at retail a little more. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Well, depends on what you do, much of it is pretty free. If you are comparing Office and StarOffice, that's bad. StarOffice costs $75. And if you got XP Pro via OEM or volume licensing (like most XP Pro customers do), it is about $75 + $75.

Then you mention DVDreader. Does Mandrake has anything like it? I doubt it. What DVD-related tools Mandrake has is inferior to what Windows XP has built in anyway.. Plus Windows XP can play DVD movies (encypted) out of the box.

Then PhotoEditing. If you want GIMP quality apps, I couldn't find anything. All of it are much more expensive and much more superior. There are free ultilities the average Joe (the same group of people that wouldn't be able to comprehend GIMP's UI) could use with his digital camera. Want the ultimate app without any Linux altenative, which is better than iPhoto, Picasa. There is a 30-day trial to the $30.00 app.

Well, sure, retail-wise, Windows does cost more. But OEM or volume licensing? :-) Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? does the suse and red hat versions everyone is comparing too come with star office also? i haven't looked, but assume they do...

also, why the club bashing? mandrake club is something they did right! for a few bucks a year i can get every release as if buying a box set, plus other software, plus while everyone else is seeing swamped mirrors i am downoading isos as fast as my cable modem will go. how is this bad?

then they throw in discounts on third party software just in case. real bummer. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Eugenia Look at Mandrakesoft NEW Secret weapon :

http://www.00fun.com/kittyhello2.shtml

If this dont convert You to Mandrake nothing will !

I promise you no other OS or Linux distribution as this feature ! its a really FUN feature Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? Those are the default fonts, all I id was add a few more from the KDE Control Center. There was a font pack posted on KDE-LOOK Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? " So ok, Windows XP cost approximatively the same than Mandrake Pro Suite. But with windows you only get the minesweeper. You have actually tp PAY for more softwate like :
Office (>100 $)
DVDreader (>25$)
PhotoEditing (>40$) "

Your forgetting that 95% of users already have those programs and windows, so in fact it doesen't really amtter. Almsot everyoen will be switching not starting from scratch. Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? it seems that eugenia is at it again. and it seems
that the same ole crowd that likes to complain is at
it again. if u want to go with the distros that are
just waiting to do pay per view please go. let Mandrake
and all the people that love what Mandrake has done
live in peace. eugenia in my opinion has problems, its
her attitude and i dont dare say what i think is causing
it

but ovbiously there are enough whiners and complainers
around to keep her happy.
enjoy.

if u comment on this please mail me and so i can come
back and baby sit u

b by


does eugenia have a *relationship* with red hat Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? >does eugenia have a *relationship* with red hat

No, but I DO have with MandrakeSoft, believe it or not. Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? i cant figure out how to reply to your post so i will
just start a new thread.

please, please, please tell u about your relationship
u have or had with Mandrake soft


rolling on the floor


come on now , dont be shy Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? >come on now , dont be shy

Not as long as you are behaving like a clown. Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? After reading some of the comments here, I think I have to comment some of your postings by myself:

Here in Germany you pay the same Price for Red Hat Pro as for Mandrake Pro, they both cost about 199 Eur, btw if you register your prosuite (does not cost anything) you get two update-cds with all the update-packages, and urpmi is only just short of apt-get, when it comes to installing security-updates and such things

The default look of a Linux Distribution is somewhat secondary, because you can tweak it, if you are not able to do this, then thats your problem, hey btw you can even skin WinXP, although thats not what Microsoft intended

Where does the Mandrake Installer ask you too much ???, it does not ask more or less than the Red Hat Installer, maybe you try the "recommended" route next time, I alwyas try the "expert" route, because I want to be asked where the bootloader should belong; lets have an example: what if it does not detect your plug&pray monitor correct, does not ask you and your X11 sucks, then you would whine too

I like to have a choice of Window-Managers, i like Mandrake for having a consistent menu-structure regardless of the window-manager since some time, have you ever seen the menu in suses gnome, not very nice

the mandrake control center has really grown better each version i had since 8.1, you can really administer most parts of your system from there, and I think suses yast is not that much more comfortable

the cds of my red hat 8.0 had only paper envelopes too, and I do not think that suse has jewel-cases in 8.1, in 8.0 they did not

maybe you have all the office suite and so on when you buy a new windows, some poeple do not have, so the linux-distros are cheaper than windows, I never heard of a windows XP Pro shipping with a web server or a ftp-server or a mail-server and so on, thats all part of windows 2000 Server which costs much more

I use red hat 7.3,8.0, mandrake since 8.1, debian woody, lycoris/LX, knoppix !!! since 2.1 (its a debian on a live-cd, great !!!) and I like them all, I use Suse 7.3 and 8.0 too, at work, but I do not like them really, but that is really something personally

last note: the mandrake-Isos could be downloaded even befor you could buy the distro !!!, so if you only want to have have have, but not buy, then you could have downloaded it (some people like to pay the guys at mandrake and red hat for doing a great job)

dont get me wrong, the only thing i hated in this thread was this my distro-is-better-than-yours tone, and some of the half-truths that were used to support the own distro, no distro is perfect, and all have their strong and weak points, hey I really like the look of kde in suse 8.1

now thats what I had to say

with regards Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? ok, lets talk about your review ? then u can
tell us about your relationship with Mandrake Soft

laters Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://www.osnews.com/thread? http://www.osnews.com/thread? "And the main reason they do not include other third party software is because they don't want to have the headaches of supporting it for people who do not understand the difference of "we are not the developers of this application""

Exactly , most people don't know the difference. If something is broke it's vendor's fault. Period.

It is broke? Don't include it, I don't even want to see it.

Learn mandrake, keep it simple and solid. Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments