The recent release of the PS3 Slim brought about joy for those who were waiting for a less expensive/smaller gaming system and indignation for those who were waiting for a Linux experimental machine of the same type as there was no “OtherOS” or Linux option on this model. Why? we cry sadly. Because, the deep, omniscient voices of two Sony representatives boom back.We were left to guess just why there was no OtherOS option included with the PS3 Slim.There didn’t seem to be much of any explanation as to why it was left out. Did Sony feel threatened by people using Linux instead of buying games? Doubtful, as they’re sure to still make quite a bit of money selling even just the PS3s, and there surely aren’t enough people who even use only that feature enough to threaten the sale of games. Why take the feature off? Sony has said that “the new PS3 system will focus on delivering games and other entertainment content, and users will not be able to install other operating systems…” Well, the answer’s pretty simple, and not much beyond that.
A fellow from Games I Like did some digging and found the quotes of two Sony Computer Entertainment representatives that clarify the reasons why completely as well as give those who use the original PS3 for alternative operating systems an “all’s well” signal.
The explanation (in response to an unhappy forum-goer):
I’m sorry that you are frustrated by the lack of comment specifically regarding the withdrawal of support for OtherOS on the new PS3 slim. The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3.
We may not particularly be happy with it (especially those in Europe with that ridiculous 299EUR price thrown in the bargain), but at least we have an explanation.
Some who use the PS3 as an alternative OS machine may have been worried at the Slim’s drop of OtherOS support meant that future firmware updates to the previous PS3 models would also drop support for OtherOS, but another representative qualms those fears:
Please be assured that SCE is committed to continue the support for previously sold models that have the “Install Other OS†feature and that this feature will not be disabled in future firmware releases.
There is a good thing or two about the Slim’s arrival, though: previous models’ prices ought to be cascading to new lows pretty soon (if not already), so those really interested in OtherOS-supported PS3s or even just one for the sake of gaming can get one on the cheap while they’re still being sold.
Well, it’s good to know that they won’t be blocking the feature for the older model. Gotta keep an eye on the used market, then.
Allowing a general OS like Linux on a console increases the likelyhood of hacking/piracy.
I thought it was a blunder to allow it in the first place.
I have to ask…
The hacking of and piracy of what?
PS3 games/network. Any time you allow deep probing of a system you compromise the security of it. It’s safer to provide an os that only provides the user with the functionality that the system was designed for.
That won’t stop deep probing though. It’s security theater; the implementation of “security” processes meant to make people feel safe rather than actually make the secured environment safe. All a researcher or criminal (meaning the two seporately) need do is drop a network monitor between PS3 and router if they are targeting the communications protocols for the network.
As the other commenter asked.. how so? How does allowing an alternative OS install increase the likelyhood of hacking or piracy. Further, how are the two remotely related?
Hacking is not inherently an illegal activity. Hackers tend to actually have a much higher respect for licenses and laws. How would one exploring and modifying there own purchased hardware with the understanding that it voids warrenties be a problem?
Piracy would be the infringement of copyright for the purpose of resail. The more common problem would be simply copyright infringement without the intent to resell or profit alternatively. I know RIAA likes to call any duplication of content piracy though. In any case, not allowing an alternate OS on the PS3 does not magically stop those with a second from trying to duplicate content. The alternte OS install does not inherently premote copyright infringement.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on how hacking and piracy somehow relate and how either becomes an increased risk to sony by allowing an OS installation.
I can accept Sony’s explenation; they don’t want to spend developer time supporting the drivers that easily allowed the alternative OS to function. I have an idea though; release the driver source to the public domain and let FOSS do it’s thing. The alternative OS gets to keep working and Sony still reduces costs and “passes them on to the customer.” It’ll at least save the reverse engineering that will inevitably happen anyway so that OtherOS continues to function with or without Sony’s blessings.
By virtue of the fact that you are providing deeper access to the system.
Providing an OS with deeper access is more of a security risk than providing a menu with a handful of options.
By hacking I was mainly talking about cheating but it also includes compromising the system or gaining a deeper understanding to further piracy efforts.
It was a virtual machne that has no access to the video or direct memory…
It was hardly “deep” access.
Your understanding of hacking is wrong.
It is not inherently criminal or immoral. The real tragedy is that a redundant term like “ethical hacking” has to exist for the mass media and people who have been brainwashed into thinking “hacking” is an inherently dirty word.
“compromising the system” and “gaining a deeper understanding to further piracy” would not be hacking. Learning about one’s lawfully owned system to a deeper level would be as would compromising another’s system with there given permission for that testing. Doing so to support the intent to profit through copyright infringement or any other illegal means can simply be labeled by it’s correct term “criminal” or if you have to sound computer cool.. “cracking”.
Actually, I see too issues here. The misconception and offensive use of “hacking” in the purely pejorative. And the misconception that the obscurity of the hardware will somehow make the device more secure. Really, all it does is reduce the ethical uses by those who are not going to take the time to use PS3 slims for research clusters. The hackers will learn about the hardware for personal interest and the criminals will learn about the hardware for there purposes.
If the word hacking is hijacked, why don’t you use a synonim like ‘playing’ instead. Never mind the fancy words – we want to open the case of a gadget and play with it. Everybody understands that and knows it’s perfectly legal.
Why call it running, why not call it fishing? Why call it writing, why not call it sneezing? Why call it coffee, why not just use the word yogurt. Words have correct meanings. Why call it a case, why not just call it a cpu like my grandma does. heck, I think we should call it a waffle because “keyboard” is too complicated. When one start arbitrarily changing the meaning of words the language no longer facilitates communication. Words should not simply be abandoned or re-defined for personal convenience.
Another problem is that the incorrect use leads to people fearing some imaginary bogeyman rather than focusing on the real threat of criminal intent. It makes the criminal bigger than they are. It’s not some person intentionally causing harm that happens to use a keyboard instead of a crowbar; it’s some magical super-entity coming to get you. Don’t look for realistic threats, irrationally fear the unknown. If Security Theater is things put in place to make people feel safe without actually making them more safe; this is putting something in place to make people feel scared without them actually being at more risk.
Within the mass media, one can’t really do much to help the corruption of the term. They choose words and arbitrary meanings based on what will sell papers to knowledgeable consumers. On a technology website frequented by people with knowledge in the area the correct use of terms is much more appropriate.
The real irony here is that your suggesting abandoning a word’s correct meaning and choosing a different word instead which is exactly what one does they mis-use the word hacker because the correct term for the meant activity “criminal” doesn’t sound cool enough.
Personally, I’d much rather have people gain a higher level of education and understanding about the word and the long history behind it rather than have them believe it’s the modern day bogeyman. The US founding fathers where political hackers. The country was founded on and to support the creative inquisitive mindset that is hacking. The DIY crowd of the 50s. The 60s grease monkeys. The people who look at a thing and invent further based on it; heck, the people who invent new things. One ignores all this and brands everybody criminals through misuse of the term.
I once knew a guy names Marafaka and he stole a candy bar from a store so I think that word should be synonymous with criminal activities; you’ll have to arbitrarily choose a new word to use when meaning “different from the shoplifting Marafaka”.
Edited 2009-08-31 12:30 UTC
Thanks for your reply jabbotts. Words do change meaning, language is a living thing. Some things happen by themselves, some are helped by institutions like the Security Theatre. Think of words l-i-n-u-x, g-a-y, c-r-e-t-i-n, n-i-g-g-e-r. Once hip and powerful, in next generation maybe bland, retro.
If you think this is “a technology website frequented by people with knowledge in the area” you’re fooling yourself. The editor itself is a complete outsider and a casual look at news titles tells this is an IT PR cespool…
Edited 2009-08-31 13:11 UTC
True, language does evolve but a word’s correct meaning is not lost until those who remember it give up. I’m not ready to accept the terms loss and all the history and innovation associated with it and the enthusiasts of all topics who belong to it’s sub-culture. I still believe it’s more important to remember that hacking is not inherently an unethical activity even if the tricks discovered by hackers are in also used by criminals.
While the editor and site staff may fall closer to the mass media category, I’m pretty sure there are regular readers who remember the history if not themselves part of it.
Anyhow, good exchanging with you. I think we’ve beat this dead horse enough for today.
While I am not sure if I fully grasped your idea, I always remain skeptical about things like these. Exactly how many half-assed, half-working, and partially abandoned Linux ports we have?
You would think, except that while the Wii and Xbox 360 both have cracks available to run pirated games, the ps3 does not.
I installed Linux on my PS3, and thought it was useless. Their handicapped hypervisor doesn’t allow full access to the video card making video choppy and even thinking of using to play games was out of the question unless they were mames or something. I wanted to play around with using it as a media center but that idea quickly proved to be a dead end.
When you think about it, who would even install Linux on their PS3? Only people with the know how IMHO. And they probably already have a workstation.
I say good move on SCE’s part unless they’re planning on giving us full access to the hardware. I’m sure some niche out there is upset about this but honestly the rest of the 99.99% don’t care.
Edited 2009-08-27 21:33 UTC
Research facilities can and I’m sure do use them as cheap clusters.
Indeed, they do.
PS3/CellBE clusters had been quite popular, even before utilizing many GPUs in a server had gotten popular.
My guess is that Sony had been losing their asses on the hardware sales, expecting to make it up in software licensing only to realize large numbers of machines were never being used to play games
Ooh, neat pictures!
http://images.google.com/images?q=ps3+cluster
Edited 2009-08-28 00:18 UTC
beautiful pictures!
To all the people above : making it run linux actually makes it more secure.
The entire linux-must-run-on-my-toaster crowd is happy, so they will not try to hack your system.
But really, who wants to run linux on his ps3? It serves no purpose. I tried it, noticed no 3d hardware acceleration or any other cool stuff, and removed it.
And making something secure is really simple if you don’t have many requirements. And since the ps3 is a gaming console, it really simple.
Secure against what? You must hold the simplistic notion that Linux has mythical status when it comes to security. If you are going to hold any OS in that regard it should be OpenBSD.
When Sony allows an general OS instead of a limited embedded OS they are compromising the security of the system, mainly in regard to local activities.
As for outside threats you have no reason to believe that installing Linux would make the system safer. In fact you could argue that installing Linux puts you at greater outside risk for exploits since it is a widely used system.
I think some people here obviously don’t like that Sony is doing this but there is rational behind it. If I am selling a streaming media box and I don’t want people copying the movies it is much safer to lock the user into an embedded OS that provides limited functionality rather than allowing a general purpose OS to be installed.
Please try to read more than once sentence, i know it’s hard but you might get my point. My point was that if they allow to install an alternative os an entire hurd of hackers will lose interest. I know this falls in the “security by obscurity” kind of thinking, but it works.
[edit] Maybe i wasn’t clear i was talking about the security from the Sony point of view. So no copied games could be run.
Edited 2009-08-27 21:55 UTC
Agreed.
As far as I know there’s no “native” homebrew for the PS3, as it was all being developed for linux.
It’s also the only console where you can’t load pirated games (yet).
Edited 2009-08-27 22:05 UTC
You said:
When you open the system you OPEN THE SYSTEM.
Trying to placate the homebrew crowd by making it open only invites the crowd that wants to cheat/pirate the games. It isn’t as if there is a single crowd of homebrew hackers with good intentions that will only work on cheating/piracy exploits if they are offended.
All fine except you can’t run PS3 games on Linux. They run on the PS3’s game OS and you can’t access that from Linux because of the hypervisor.
No but they will work on it if they have no other option. Up until now they had the option to install Linux easily and that’s why nobody bothered to crack the PS3. Now they can’t on the new PS3s so I’m guessing we’ll start seeing exploits appear for those and that will allow piracy too.
This is so laughable that I don’t even care about replying, even though I am doing so. You are too paranoid about this kind of security.
Cheating/piracy exploits on such a console?? Don’t fool yourself… We have yet to establish a perfect hardware compatibility with Linux on common platforms such as x86, where you often have to cope with sluggish/broken drivers even if they are developed by the hardware maker itself (think about the intel drivers for xorg and the all the mess they have caused on the latest *buntu release!)! How do you think tinkering with an open OS on a niche architecture could spred piracy??
It’s a bit like saying that allowing PCs to run FOSS OSs exposes Windows to increased piracy risks!
Maybe there is something I don’t know, but your position seems to me excessively conservative and worried.
I think their defeat in this console era has humbled them, and so they aren’t locking Linux out with the next firmware release, even though there would be sound logic behind it. Sony is selling these systems at a legendary loss. Software – games and digital downloads – is how they are trying to make money with the PS3. That money is accumulated over time as the gamer invests more and more into their system, and eventually (hopefully) a profit is made from that user. If someone buys the system and puts Linux on it with no intention of buying games or downloads, well, Sony has lost money. These machines are expensive to make, and the company is in a near do-or-die situation right now, and merely recouping some lost cost is probably not feasible.
Market forces have dictated that Sony must reduce the cost of their console. First up was backwards compatibility. Now we have a redesign and a removal of the OtherOS feature (whether it’s an actual cost saver or just prohibits Linux from being installed and therefore prevents non-gamers from buying the system is irrelevant, because both lead to the same outcome). Apparently the cost of producing Cell and Blu-ray devices has not decreased to the level that Sony probably anticipated. And since nearly every game is multi-platform, the whole strategy of “everyone will save up because they want to own one!” does not work.
We can only hope that the slim did not skimp on quality as well.
It has nothing to do with piracy, hacking, or whatever. Sony’s firmware updates are good for that, and removing OtherOS on old PS3’s is not going to be in future firmware. Sony is hemorrhaging funds on a system that is A) either too advanced for its time or B) really has the exact same capabilities as the Xbox and we (including Sony) were all duped by fancy new hardware names. Either way, they need to save money and, eventually, start making it again before the console world returns to a two party system… and this time with Microsoft and Nintendo.
Edited 2009-08-27 22:23 UTC
It is likely that Sony have made a loss on every PS3 unit they have sold, and will sell for some time to come. At best they will make a very minimal amount on every PS3 slim they sell, but that seems unlikely.
Sony relies on sales of games to make a profit over the longer term.
PS3 Linux is of very little utility for general use, especially given it’s lack of video acceleration; it is rather a curiosity for most users that install it and nothing more, and most will delete it. One of the few practical uses for it was building a high performance computing cluster. PS3s used in such clusters won’t be used for games, ergo they will never generate a profit for Sony.
This is not a matter of drivers. The new PS3 slim is, most likely, identical hardware to the old units as far as software is concerned – were it not it would have compatibility problems with existing games.
This is instead a matter of profit. Including the option to install Linux decreases the overall profitability of the PS3. This is why they’re not including the Other OS feature any more.
Sorry but this makes no sense.
Say you build a system for $40 and sell it for $20, then expect it to give you $20 per year for 3 years until you reach +$40. Obviously a cluster sale will give you -$20 for that particular system which isn’t very good. However, when the alternative is -$40 it doesn’t sound like a bad deal. Assuming that you can sell all the systems at their current prices to gamers that will buy games from you instead of 2nd hand market is assuming a lot. IMO, their explanation(Build it for $20 and sell it for $19) is better.
Sony is just like Apple with the iPhone. They want you in their walled garden. They are not trying to sell you a pc. They are trying to sell you a games console to make them some money. They also want to sell you movies, anime and games. The minute Sony locked down the PS3s GPU anyone who wanted to run linux on the ps3 should have run screaming from the platform. It is obvious Sony don’t give a damn about people owning their hardware and that we are all just “licensees” to them. This is why I never bought a PS3 and why a friend of mine sold his. He wanted it for a home set top box but sony only allow their preapproved rubbish on it. Not worth the time/hastle. The people saying that Sony allowing Linux on the platform helped to curb hardware hacking are probably right.
You open your system but make the GPU a pain, people give up and move on. You try to close the entire system and people try to hack it open. By openning the system enough to get linux on, but not too much. Sony has ensured that noone is throwing large resources at cracking the platform for both piracy and homebrew. Half the homebrew community is probably thinking you can homebrew ps3 already. The other half wants GPU access but doesn’t know howto get it. The piracy scene is looking at bluray as being expensive as hell, and they don’t have enough hardware hackers interested in probing the ps3 platform because all that’s left to probe is the GPU and security system. Vs having the entire platform to explore. A lot of hardware hackers do it because they find interesting things along the way. With the PS3 most of the mystery has been revealed. There’s just that 10% of hard work which most hardware hackers don’t really care about. Breaking encryption is usually a means to an end for them. That end is usually knowledge of the system and getting 1-2 uses out of the object other than what it was originally intended for. With PS3 there is no mystery. Just a stupid locked down GPU and a copy protection encryption scheme that’s in hardware and is annoying to break. Noone is interested in breaking in.
Edited 2009-08-28 01:34 UTC
The sad part is that Sony was pretty open in what concerns the PS1 and PS2 consoles.
PS1 had the NetYaroze as a homebrew version, and the PS2 got a Linux version.
Both allowed much more hardware access than what is being offered on the PS3.
Maybe Sony didn’t saw the return on investment they thought would be worth, and decided to ditch the idea.
I bought a PS2 Linux, but didn’t gave it as much use as I thought I would. Maybe I am one also to blame for this, don’t know.
But now I am most likely to get a 360, because at least Microsoft is offering XNA to play with.
well they did the same thing with ps2 linux, it doesn’t work on late ps2 models
By the way linux on the ps3 is unuseful for most people since the cell it’s really slow for general purpose applications, it’s only good for developers that want to use the real power of the cell, and I guess that’s less then 1% of ps3 userbase so sony probably did the right thing
The sad thing is that developers aren’t willing to continue developing ps3 linux projects anymore since it’s something that is gonna die
You lost me right there. Has Apple ever released a device where they actively helped you to install a different operating system on it?
Has Apple ever released a device that runs on Linux?
Has Apple ever given you the source code of what is shipping on one of their consumer devices? (I’m not talking about Darwin, because the Darwin source code that you can download is not what ships with OS X)
Has Apple ever released a drag ‘n’ drop MP3 player that works on any USB-capable operating system?
Does Apple’s music store provide you with THE standard file format for MP3 players, rather than providing you with a format that only 10-20% of MP3 players (including iPods) can play?
Until you can answer Yes to all these questions, then Sony’s garden has acreage out the back, by comparison.
All ipods i have tried work perfectly on Linux. Unlike Windows you do not need to download a seperate driver…
1. You need to use a separate program. Ipods do not support drag ‘n’ drop music loading. Every Sony Walkman made in the last couple of years supports drag ‘n’ drop, and generates the music library itself when you unplug it. As a result, you can use literally any USB-capable operating system to load music onto it. Some home stereo systems can record MP3s from CD and transfer to USB devices, and the Walkman will work with all of those. Apple does not allow this with their iPods.
2. The newer iPods have a “secret handshake” system that stops earlier iPod-loading software from working. Your ability to use those iPods with Linux is thanks to the efforts of hackers who reverse-engineered the system and broke the encryption.
GPU? RSX is uber-slow by today standards and PS3 is low on memory VS. cheap PC.
CELL programming is the _only_ reason to install linux on PS3 and GPU is, clearly, useless thing here. PS3 is the only CELL system what most people like me can afford.
There were two reasons why Sony had the OtherOS function originally:
1. Good PR – when a university uses a cluster of PS3s running Linux to work on mathematical problems, Sony can boast that their console has the grunt of a supercomputer.
2. The people who want to run Linux on the machine don’t need to do any work, therefore they don’t need to reverse-engineer the machine, therefore they don’t release any documents that unintentionally help pirates to get around the security system.
Well, Sony’s had as much good PR out of the PS3’s performance as it’s going to get, and the Linux hackers are now working towards breaking out of the hypervisor and getting access directly to the hardware; so it’s time to pull the plug on Other OS.
3. Taxes. In certain locations, adding Linux made the higher priced PS3 a “computer” and not a “toy”.. it probably saved $20 off the price somewhere. Since Wii and XBox don’t seem to be getting hit with extra taxes why bother pretending to jump thru hoops.
gamecube exploit found by those trying to run linux found and later used to run pirated games
wii exploit found by those trying to run linux found and later used to run pirated games
xbox 360 exploit found by those trying to run linux found and later used to run pirated games
and some others the ps3 already supported linux so there was no hobby hacker searching deep enough to find a weakness.
so even if the ps3 linux support where half assed it was good enough to loss intress of linux hardware hackers. And those people making modchips are often not good enough to find the exploit, they only use exploits that other people have found before them
who cares about an hypervisor ?
Just release the specs as any sane hw vendor should and let others write drivers for the OS they use.
To the the specs *are* the manual.
You can’t possibly ship something without a manual, right?
Wait, you do have specs written, right?
Hypervisor is a center of PS3 security.
No one in their right mind will allow you to modify the level 1 OS.
Thus making Sony lose even more money.