It doesn't really matter how you spell it, but pointing it out is just asking for trouble.

$699 / £649 (!)

Yes, that price completely sucks. $699 in pounds with 17.% VAT is about £555. But Jobs previously said we should blame our government for this, and lobby them instead.

no, I am not going to spell it "aluminum"

"no, I am not going to spell it "aluminum"

$999 / £929 / €1'149

Don't worry, when ObaMAO rolls out the VAT here we'll probably be paying more than you guys.

"$999 / £929 / €1'149

Apple still increase their margin by about 19%.

$699 / £649 (!)

Yes, that price completely sucks. $699 in pounds with 17.% VAT is about £555. But Jobs previously said we should blame our government for this, and lobby them instead.

Sorry, Steve, who precisely do I call to complain that poor Apple are being forced to make even more outrageous margins than usual on the back of its UK customers?

You are right, you can not buy and complain about the price, but again WHY?

Why complain that a Bentley or a Lear Jet is expensive?

You wont be accessing one anytime soon. So its a moot point at best.

Is Apple forcing you to purchase any of their products? I dont think so. So good sir, is your point to solely to troll?

Apple, like any other product releases items for sale, you have the inherent freedom to plunk down your hard owned or socially donated govt funds over to them in exchange for the product.

But comparing a Ford Ka to Bentley Continental GT on the basis of price, accomplishes exactly what you are doing; missing the point.

Look! Over there! Could it be?!?! It's a bridge! You know what to do with that don't you?

How is it Apple's fault that the United Kingdom is one of the most expensive countries in the world to do business in? Maybe you Brits should do something about the obscene cost of doing business in the United Kingdom then there wouldn't be the massive disparity in prices. Apple aren't going go absorb the higher cost of doing business in the UK hence it is passed onto you the consumer.

Here in Brazil, everything from apple is, at least, 3x more expensive... :-(

People who say that Apple hardware is over-expensive compared with other similar computers are often accused of missing some hypothetic point. However, I think I've never seen somebody explaining seriously and without introducing a pure troll or some kind of false information what said point is...

It now sports an aluminium (no, I am not going to spell it "aluminum") enclosure

It doesn't really matter how you spell it, but pointing it out is just asking for trouble.

Preference for front or back for the SD-Card slot would depend on the frequency of use.....Anyhow, after a few times, it becomes more a by-feel insertion of the card than really looking for the slot.

Aiming at the HTPC use would require having a Blue-Ray drive.....I did not note such option. Maybe it's kept in reserve for the second generation of this design?

The easier access to the RAM slots is welcome - not everybody is skilled at prying things open with putty knifes!

People who say that Apple hardware is over-expensive compared with other similar computers are often accused of missing some hypothetic point. However, I think I've never seen somebody explaining seriously and without introducing a pure troll or some kind of false information what said point is...

Please, get outside a little and experience life. How the fuck (since you would rather not communicate without vagaries, i'll use the language you appear to be familiar with) does a cum bubbler like you not know what a Bentley is but know a Ferrari? Since you are saying Apple is priced like a luxury product, I referred to a luxury product, but since poor people like you don't understand luxury, my bad, with your food stamp welfare check cashing ass.

You are right, you can yell as loud as you want reminiscent of that time in prison in the shower, its your right, and just as in prison, it wont matter. And no, that wasn't English humor, I referred to a bridge as you are a troll, and since you obviously didn't understand the reference, that makes you a stupid troll (psssst, thats the worse kind).

How do the other computer vendors manage to have similar prices in the US and in Europe and not Apple then? Can you explain that?

The Techie Apple Conundrum (TAC)

The TAC arises often on sites such as OSNews because the attraction of Apple products, and hence Apple's huge success as a company, is dependent on features and aspects of product design invisible to almost all Techies. Thus Apples success is mysterious, vexing and ultimately challenging.

Techies for example often focus on feature lists and technical specifications and compare one such list to another and look at comparative prices and cannot understand that someone would pay more for an "inferior" spec.

This of course misses a critical aspect of Apple product design, one of the keys to the success of Apple in the consumer market, which is that for many (perhaps most) consumers having fewer technical features is a positive thing.

This seems paradoxical to Techies but this is because they fail to comprehend what the actual experience for the vast majority of consumers of hi-tech products actually is - which is bad.

Consumers constantly encounter products that don't work as advertised, products that squeeze so many functions into an item that using it for its main purposes is dreadfully complex, products that even when their function should be simple (i.e. to play music, to play a DVD, to surf the web, to write emails) require a thick user manual (many of which which are often written by engineers and are thus unhelpful).

Most hi-tec products are user-unfriendly for most consumers. But not to Techies because they have technical knowledge and so can cope with poor/arcane design. In fact Techies like such products because they find technical challenges fun and because it makes them useful (they are always helping people solve their technical problems) and thus boosts their self esteem.

Some kit, almost all non-Apple desktop computers for example, are not just difficult and poorly designed but are positively scary for almost all consumers. Many non-Apple desktop computers seem very complex to operate, go wrong for no clearly understood reasons and worst of all seem to be under constant attack. Watching someone move from a non-Apple desktop computer to a Mac you can often see them slowly losing their awful, and most of the times paralysing, fear of infection and attack. As the fear fades the pleasure of using their computer increases dramatically and people start to love their computers rather than secretly hating them. Thus another mac-head is born.

The very reasons that make the iPad such a huge success are the very reasons that Techies don't get it. If one product above all induces TAC its the iPad. Techies say "but Apple has an iron grip and is killing our freedoms" (people want safety much more than some obscure technical freedom), "the iPad doesn't have [insert any number of features that consumers don't care about]", "its not a real computer" (exactly).

The emblematic product for TAC is the iPad. Here is a product that comes on instantly, looks and feels gorgeous, feels fast, is easy to operate and does (in a fantastically convenient form factor) most of what most people do most of the time on their computer (ie browse the web, send emails, watch movies, read stuff and look at and share photos).

Plus it has two huge benefits for most consumers. First it doesn't feel like a computer - this is a good thing for most people because most people's experience of using computers has been bad.

Secondly it feels very safe because of Apple's curated computing model, and most users of computers have previously felt unsafe most of the time.

The very reasons that make the iPad such a huge success are the very reasons that Techies don't get it. If one product above all induces TAC its the iPad. Techies say "but Apple has an iron grip and is killing our freedoms" (people want safety much more than some obscure technical freedom)

, "the iPad doesn't have [insert any number of features that consumers don't care about]"

, "its not a real computer" (exactly).

So the continuing, relentless and accelerating success of Apple seems almost inexplicable to most Techies, "how could such products be so successful?"

The answer Techies come up are fairly predictable:

- Apple's voodoo marketing: Apple is pulling the wool over the consumer eyes (sometimes this is blamed on media hype).

- Apple's evil lock in: Apple has a locked down and closed platform, once sucked in people can't leave.

- Apple consumers and users are idiots: Fooled by marketing and glitzy packaging the sheep can be sold everything.

Because Techies believe that these are the real reason people buy Apple products (other than the more obvious reason which is that they actually like them a lot) Techies also believe that this state of affairs cannot possibly last and therefore the final piece of the Techie response to Apple falls into place. Deranged by TAC Techies often come up with the most delusional statement of all - Apple is doomed.

Ah, finally some explanation above the "interesting" level
The rest of the comment was trimmed for brevity

Its nice, but way too expensive for an entry level machine.

I'm getting more and more annoyed with Apple as of late. Its starting to like like OSX is being relegated to a developer platform for the iOS junk.

I love OSX, IMO, it is FAR AND AWAY the best desktop unix ever made. (I have using and developing on Linux since 1995, and using Sun OS since about 1987, so I certainly have some experience to make this claim).

I just wish they would let OSX run legally on non Apple hardware, or at least make some hardware that the same order of magnitude price/performance ratio as say Dell. Given how awesome OSX is, even a cost of 1 - 2 times more then a comparable Dell would be tolerable, but this thing is what like 4 - 5 times more then a Dell of the same specs.

I've been using OSX since the NeXTSTEP days (Had a NeXT Station at University, and bought myself a copy of OpenSTEP), but these ridiculous price increases, lack of hardware updates will push even people like me away to Linux full time.

And yet Apple products are bought by millions and millions and millions of people. Apple will sell millions of the new mac mini. Why?

All that you say may be true: if so why do Apple products sell so well? Why has Apple been so successful? Why, when asked in so many end user surveys, do Apple's customers express so much happiness about their products?

...it seems as if Apple, and Steve Jobs knows just how to please them.

Odd, isn't [ it ]?

Us "techies" have watched zillions of rabid, over-enthusiastic fans getting fleeced.

The reality of our consumerist society is that those who make desirable products can and do charge a premium for them.

By your definition you are being fleeced if you drink any of the popular brands of drinks, or drive any kind of luxury car or fit an up-market stereo system to that car or ... the list goes on.

In every one of these cases the components that are used to manufacture the final product are at best marginally more expensive and slightly better quality than those used in their much cheaper counterparts, yet the premium on the final product is significant.

That's what building a brand is all about.

Coke is no better than some generic brand Cola, but they have a brand presence and they have educated consumers that theirs is the "real" taste of Cola. In my country a 2l bottle of Coke is nearly three times the price of a generic shopping centre brand, and once you've had half a dozen "scotch and coke"'s you won't taste the difference anyway, yet there are millions of people who will drink nothing but Coke. They too are being fleeced - by your definition - yet they are no different to Apple customers in that they are happy to pay a premium for something that they believe is better.

Whether it is or not is a topic of much debate, but it's also irrelevant, because the consumer believes it is, and at the end of the day if they're happy, they're not being fleeced...

Most nerds do not understand they are a very very tiny fraction of the market (how much traction linux has a mainstream desktop?)

they also don't understand the cocept of value proposition.

Most consumers really don't know much about what's under the hood, and they really do not care.

The value proposition from a mac mini, is not that it offers a better performance per dollar than other systems. But that it offers a better integrated cheap computer than almost any other system at that price range.

Wintel boxes and OSX boxes at that price range try to compete with two different approaches: wintels offer more bang for the buck, while mac minis offer better user experience.

If people request that Apple offer the same value than no-name cheapo boxes, how come the same people do not request the same level of integration and attention to detail from those cheapo wintel boxes?

I did a (very) quick google check. In 10 seconds, I found the "ACER Aspire Revo R3610-VFYZ Seven Home Premium" for €315.11 with 4GB of RAM, 500GB hardrive, HDMI, SD card reader, 6xUSB, etc.

"And yet it moves" (that's a Galileo quote by the way)

And yet Apple products are bought by millions and millions and millions of people. Apple will sell millions of the new mac mini. Why?

All that you say may be true: if so why do Apple products sell so well?

Why has Apple been so successful? Why, when asked in so many end user surveys, do Apple's customers express so much happiness about their products?

Those are genuine questions I am pitching at you. Your challenge is to answer them with out slipping into the archetypal techie responses I quoted (its the marketing, the Apple customers are stupid etc).

Answering the challenge of explaining Apples success whilst also claiming their products are inferior is a good challenge for you to try - its the sort of exercise that broadens the mind.

Back in the (in technological terms) ghastly 1990s when Apple seemed to be dying and the horrible Windows 95/98 was taking the world by storm I had to face that sort of challenge. I could have said that all those people buying an operating system that was so obviously inferior to the Mac's must be stupid, I could have offered a similar critique of Microsoft's success as that offered by techies to "explain" Apple's success.

But in the end I had to face the facts, that whilst being technically inferior (from my point of view) Windows PCs did what most people wanted their computers to do better than Macs (they were compatible with work, they were cheap, they played more games - whatever).

The customer is always right. And it seems as if Apple, and Steve Jobs knows just how to please them. Odd isn't?

Tried my best, hope you'll be satisfied with the result

You even rolled out the Apple Customers are idiots argument (using a slightly more polite terminology). Explaining the growth of a company from near bankruptcy to becoming the most valuable technology company on the planet in a little more than decade as being the result of poor, ill-informed or fashion driven consumer choices seems awfully weak to me.

Actually I am a bit disappointed in your replies - it seems to me that almost everything you have said boils down to the three Techie Apple success explanations I listed.

That is:

Apple's voodoo marketing: Apple is pulling the wool over the consumer eyes (sometimes this is blamed on media hype).

- Apple's evil lock in: Apple has a locked down and closed platform, once sucked in people can't leave.

- Apple consumers and users are idiots: Fooled by marketing and glitzy packaging the sheep can be sold everything.

The issue is to explain the huge success of Apple products, to explain why people buy them in their tens of millions. As an explanation of Apple's success the argument above, essentially the arguments you used, are crass and superficial.

All companies try to market their products - Apple's marketing is very good but other companies also have good marketing. Apple spend on marketing is not markedly higher than other companies. Blaming it on marketing seems a bit shallow.

All companies try to ensure customer loyalty and sometimes companies try to do this through locking in customer or at least make switching to another companies products a costly or difficult affair. Apple actually do this less than a lot of other high tech companies.

You can get your content out of iTunes and into something else fairly easily.

Apple does use DRM

iTunes runs on Windows.

Apple does use DRM but all the evidence and all Apple's public statements indicate that Apple would happily drop DRM if the content owners agreed (why should Apple be interested in DRM - they don't own the content).

Exporting your personal data from a Mac (contacts, calendar, emails etc) to another platform couldn't be easier.

Apple's browser engine was open sourced by the company.

MacOSX uses lots of open standards

and Apple software almost always offers the opportunity to save content in open formats.

The App store is both closed and open. Closed in the sense that Apple definitely does not want cross platform development between iOS and other mobile platforms (see here http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Ma... for one of the many examples of how Apple have been badly burned in the past when they have lost control of the development environment for their platforms)

, but the App store also pioneered a far more open and accessible way for developers to sell their products.

The iOS development tools are cheap

and fairly easy to use and the App Store offers the vast majority of developers a very easy route to sell their wares.

You even rolled out the Apple Customers are idiots argument (using a slightly more polite terminology). Explaining the growth of a company from near bankruptcy to becoming the most valuable technology company on the planet in a little more than decade as being the result of poor, ill-informed or fashion driven consumer choices seems awfully weak to me.

Most hi-tec products are user-unfriendly for most consumers. But not to Techies because they have technical knowledge and so can cope with poor/arcane design. In fact Techies like such products because they find technical challenges fun and because it makes them useful (they are always helping people solve their technical problems) and thus boosts their self esteem.

What some people do not seem to understand is that safety and technical freedom *are* compatible. They are not opposite. They are two features. You can have one, the other, or both. As simple as that.... It IS a computer. Just a castrated one. Computers were made to let the user do pretty much everything he wants which involves processing information. iPads restrict this to what Apple lets users do. Which means that it remains a computer, provided that you consider Apple as the user, the one in control of the machine.

As an example, notice that you generally can't try out cellphones before buying them. This allows the most horrible buggy phones which don't even manage to delete messages from the mailbox to survive (yeah, I'm looking at you, LG), while in a setting where people were fully informed they wouldn't stood a chance.

But for some reason, people keep exposing misconceptions about "techies" (even though their real nature is simple and obvious), and bashing them for the sake of bashing, in a fashion that somehow make them look as if they were jealous of the hardly-acquired capacities of the techs.

I just can't get that. Do you ?

I would argue that stability is as a general rule one of Apple's strengths.

They may make developers' lives difficult and not always be as magical as they claim, but you can generally count on them not releasing any half-baked features.

If it's not stable, it doesn't make the cut. I think Apple has earned its reputation in this respect because lest we forget, freedom from bugs is also a kind of usability enhancement in and of itself.

People who say that Apple hardware is over-expensive compared with other similar computers are often accused of missing some hypothetic point. However, I think I've never seen somebody explaining seriously and without introducing a pure troll or some kind of false information what said point is...

People who say that Apple hardware is over-expensive compared with other similar computers are often accused of missing some hypothetic point. However, I think I've never seen somebody explaining seriously and without introducing a pure troll or some kind of false information what said point is...

Apple hardware IS more expensive. If you go to Newegg and get the cheapest parts in a beige box then you can cut the cost to about half what the Mini is quite easily. Most of the people on these boards (me included) grew up "rolling their own" and it was always cheaper. Now that Apple hardware is line-item comparable with windows hardware it makes the cost difference a bit harder to take.

BUT...

in the case of the Mac Mini find a comparable Windows machine that will sport a Core2Duo, and 8GB ram, BT, wireless N, etc. in the SIZE of a 3.5 hard drive enclosure. You won't find it at a $699 price point, and certainly not in the RETAIL channel. Without being demoted to Celeron M instead of Core2Duo or worse Atom and integrated Intel graphics instead of Nvidia, you won't find any wireless or gigabit networking or firewire 800 in Windows desktops at that price point either. The only real competition Apple has for the Mac Mini is in the embedded industrial PC market.. and those start at twice the price for half the hardware. The Mac Mini is highly unique and because of that Apple can pretty much pick whatever price they want.

The challenge is not if you can go to some obscure vendor with one website and cobble together something for way cheaper (without including any cost for Software, assembly time, or shipping though) Find something like the Mini in the RETAIL channel that's turnkey. They don't sell for anybody else other than Apple. Dell has some equipment that's close to the Mini, but the cost is equally bumped up to match the Mini "because they can". Dell has the Zeno, but the only model comparable to a Mini is the most expensive one. if you take the Dell Studio Hybrid, you are in a similar size and style, and the price is about the same... for lower specs on CPU, GPU, and ram. The Mini is not as "overpriced" as it feels like, it's just not "cheap".

Well, the GP made a comment about an LG phone and from the sound of it no phone that has come from Apple has suffered from even close to that level of instability.

And back in the pre-XP days of Windows there was absolutely no question that Mac OS X was the more stable OS.

As for Final Cut Pro, behind the scenes it is a pile of ancient code based on classic QuickTime and Carbon and most likely uses a whole host of poorly documented and undocumented APIs so it's a wonder that it doesn't crash more often IMHO.

I never said that every piece of software to come out of Apple is gold....

"Well, the GP made a comment about an LG phone and from the sound of it no phone that has come from Apple has suffered from even close to that level of instability.

well i just built some ubuntu dev boxes with core 2 quad cpus on a mini-itx motherboard. ok i will give that the case is a little bit wider than de mac mini case. but most people wisiting our office prefer it to the mac minis that we have.

so what will 400usd give
core 2 quad 2.4
integrated nvidia 9400
500gb hardrive
gigabit e
802.11n

no fw 800 and no cdrom but optical drives now days feels ancient