From Microsoft’s FAQ about Windows 10 S:
Yes, Microsoft Edge is the default web browser on Microsoft 10 S. You are able to download another browser that might be available from the Windows Store, but Microsoft Edge will remain the default if, for example, you open an .htm file. Additionally, the default search provider in Microsoft Edge and Internet Explorer cannot be changed.
Braindead. Edge is buggy and messy, Bing is garbage. Not being able to change default applications is one of the many reasons using iOS is so grating and cumbersome, and Microsoft copying that behaviour is really, really dumb.
FYI…on iOS, you do have the option to change your default search to Google, Yahoo, Bing or DuckDuckGo…better than it used to be…
You will be able to change your default search engine. Also this isn’t a big deal, first, Chrome OS just has one browser, Chrome, since Wimndows 10 is copying Google, Edge being the default makes sense, second, there are no other useful browsers available in the Windows store.
Lastly, you will still be able to upgrade to a full version of Windows 10 for only $50 bucks, you will than be able to install and select whatever you want as your default, this is a none issue
calden,
“Ah yes child it’s true, in my day we didn’t have to pay for freedom”
I get why microsoft’s wants to charge for it, but from an ethical point of view you can’t really justify having to pay microsoft in order to install software from competing sources. It’s practically extortion.
I dunno, it’s $50 for a fully-featured version of Windows, which is cheaper than you can normally get it with a new PC. Would you rather them charge $100 out of the box (or whatever the OEM price is) and not give people a free (but limited) starter OS?
Personally, I was kinda hoping they’d offer this as a free download as an option for people with older hardware, without a legit Windows license. A friend of mine has such a machine – I thought about installing Linux on it, but I don’t want to have to deal with the tech support calls, as I don’t have a clue how to troubleshoot Linux issues.
Edited 2017-05-03 22:35 UTC
WorknMan,
My objection isn’t to the amount. It’s that they shouldn’t be charging users for the right to install 3rd party software at all. Or to switch their browser or search engine. We keep dismissing it, but over time the loss of rights is cumulative; at any given time the changes seem minor but collectively they are very regressive for consumers.
Microsoft bootloader and app restrictions just apply to ARM CPUs, oh well. Microsoft is collecting user telemetry by default but at least it can be disabled, oh well. The MS bootloader restrictions can apply to x86 too now but at least microsoft is allowing some linux distros to run under it’s key for the time being, oh well. You can’t control when windows gets updates anymore, but at least there’s a workaround by setting data to capped, oh well. Now telemetry can only be turned off in enterprise versions, oh well. Now it costs $50 to run 3rd party software, oh well. Users who don’t pay to change their default search can still navigate to them manually, oh well.
Now even if you don’t care about this because “it’s just windows 10s”, next time around the precedent will be established and it won’t be just windows 10s. Microsoft will be emboldened to go even further and it will become the new normal, like everything else we’ve given up has.
I’m under no pretense that anyone’s going to listen to the warnings, but they are there. The reason I quoted that fictitious conversation earlier is because that’s you and me in the not-so-far future talking to our grandchildren. What I find tragic is that this path is completely avoidable, or would be if only we would stand up to the companies taking away our individual rights rather than letting them get away with it over and over again.
Edited 2017-05-04 01:39 UTC
I understand why you think that way, but this is never going to be the new normal. The ONLY reason most of us still run Windows is because of ‘legacy’ Win32 apps that we can’t find alternatives for anywhere else, and if MS were to be stupid enough to try and take those away, that would be the end of Windows on the desktop, because there’d be no reason for us to keep using it. (Well, people would still run older versions in VMs or whatever, but you know what I mean.)
WorknMan,
You know I’ll be very happy if a few years from now I’m proven wrong, but my intuition tells me microsoft’s intention is to keep making it more difficult and expensive to “sideload” software, particularly for home users. Let’s face it, if microsoft wanted users to keep using win32 software, they wouldn’t be making it less accessible.
I’m not saying users won’t be pissed off when they have to pay more to run their existing software, many undoubtedly will be. But microsoft is no stranger to controversy and given microsoft’s goal of full software channel control, weening users off win32s is a necessary step. We can debate whether it’s a stupid strategy to pursue, but that’s what it is.
I do agree with you at least with enterprise customers. Microsoft can’t pull the same crap with there, at least not yet.
Edited 2017-05-06 05:00 UTC
Ars posted an article about this:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/even-if-you-h…
You can take a Windows 3.1 from a scrap pile and install. Microsoft won’t blink. OS’s are not sold anymore. You pay for SW “medical insurance”, net-security, quality assurance, “associated” services, cloud, etc. etc.
It cost NOTHING to MS you using that Windows 3.1 with contemporaneous, endorsed software.
It cost SOMETHING to MS you using Their Latest OS with their latest “of the house” products.
It cost A PAIN THE *SS to MS you using NOT Their Latest OS with NOT their latest “of the house” products.
Unnecessary, that activation. Satya Should charge only for networking -that would extend usage-.
Edited 2017-05-05 14:53 UTC
You are talking complete nonsense here. My usage of OS or software never costs MS anything. Money not earned is not the same as money lost.
A running cost, FooBat. As soon as you connect. Not only to protect you. But every other Windows servers and users you connect to, or deliver through.
And Yeah, Microsoft loss money, on OS’s not sold. Cheaper than not doing so.
Edited 2017-05-05 15:34 UTC
It’s not MS or Apple that are Brain dead. It’s the uneducated, ‘Accept what they sell you’ public that needs resuscitation.
Oh really? Windows 10 S will result in dirt-cheap PCs that will do the job just fine, and you can still use another browser.
Windows 10 S is the cheapest viable OS out there (no, I don’t consider Desktop Linux and its dependency hell/packaging hell to be remotely viable. For example, Ubuntu 14.04, a still-young OS can’t download the latest VLC from the Software Center, and the vidrolan site directs you to the Ubuntu Software Center, and rolling releases are a pain unless you ‘ve hand picked all your hardware and software to be “free”). I think I will go for Windows 10 S if I ever want a dirt-cheap PC, and just open html files using Chrome’s File -> Open dialog. But I won’t have any dependency hell and packaging hell issues. Much better compromise, “free” or not.
PS: Edge is fine as a browser by itself, but doesn’t have adblock, so you have to endure animated ads eating your CPU even on battery, plus the extra malware risk
Edited 2017-05-03 17:45 UTC
I’m not worried about animated ads eating CPU cycles. I’m more worried about advertisers interrupting what I’m doing, and getting paid for it.
You seem to miss the point. In Windows terminology Ubuntu 14.04 might be very young, but as a Linux release it has been superseded by a new LTS release (16.04) for more than a year. In Linux land you don’t have to pay for upgrades, so you update the whole OS including applications. In Windows land you have to go and hunt for new revisions of all your apps all the time to run on your ancient OS (or have a boatload of “updaters” running in the background).
Stay fresh 🙂
Those updaters need to burn in a fire! Can’t tell you how many times in the past month, I’m about to lay down some serious amounts if kick ass in Ghost Recon: Wildlands, when up pops this ‘update me’ or ‘reboot me for updates’ dialog that doesn’t pause the game, and instead ruins my gaming experience. Which considering all I use Windows for these days is gaming..
Most users don’t want OS upgrades, unless full back compatibility is 100% guaranteed. Just look how many people refused to update Windows 7 and Windows 8 to Windows 10 despite Windows 10 being offered for free and MS pushing the upgrade as hard as they could. People want new apps on their existing OS, which is the devil they know. Successful OSes like Windows and Android allow new apps on old OS versions, but Desktop Linux feels compelled to tell people what they should want. And for that reason it has the 1-1.5% market-share it deserves.
Edited 2017-05-04 08:17 UTC
It deserves a large marketshare because “people” who are not engineers should be prohibited from making their own decisions about computers.
I deal with bot attacks every week because “people” decided they knew more than engineers and decided to forego updates to operating systems, applications, and anti-virus software. And then they clicked “Okay” on the first pop-up that said that they needed to install malware disquised as an update to Flash Player. Then I, and thousands of other engineers and IT support people, have to deal with the results as the “people’s” computers turn into bots spewing spam and trying to break into our SMTP, FTP, SSH, Web, Telnet, etc. servers while stealing our bandwidth and storage (for log files) to do it.
Nice evasion, but the Windows 7 I have running on my old netbook gets automatically updated with the very latest security patches (factory setting), and so does Chrome (factory setting), no need for the user to “decide” on anything. And (here is the difference from Desktop Linux, pay close attention and concentrate to understand this) I have the latest VLC running on that several-years-old installation of Windows 7, and I used the official installer from the official Videolan site, no need to do a major upgrade to Windows 10. That’s what most users want.
And that my friend, is “openness” ordinary people care about. Take your dependency hell/ packaging hell/ repository walled gardens to the 1-1.5%ers who care about source licenses.
Edited 2017-05-04 12:24 UTC
I run macOS as my primary OS, although I run Linux on some of my other workstations. I gave up on Windows around the Vista timeframe after working with Windows professionally starting with Windows/286.
> and rolling releases are a pain unless you ‘ve hand picked all your hardware and software to be “free”
No Broadcom NICs, or PowerVR or Nvidia GPUs. Games should be done through Steam, GoG, or another service that handles their dependencies. Boom, done. So fucking hard amirite?
I don’t know about Broadcom NICs, haven’t had issues with those, unless specifically the Wifi ones, they work but suck. Last one I had worked fine unless I wanted to stream video, then it’d reset the connection every damn time…
I don’t even think PowerVR makes GPUs for desktop machines or laptops, do they? Thought they mostly stuck to embedded systems now.
nVidia GPUs work fine, I just installed the binary driver, which if you want to deal with AMD cards, you almost always end up doing the same. Rolling releases handle this nicely enough too.
Like you said, not hard really.
The Broadcom wifi and ethernet drivers have always been terrible. It took until the last couple of years for them to be DKMS-compatible too, so you got stuck on older kernel versions.
Actually it does, in fact it even has experimental support for uBlock Origin, which (from my testing) is the lowest resource and best performing ad blocker for PCs.
https://github.com/nikrolls/uBlock-Edge/
They were hit with antitrust charges in the 90’s and early 2000’s for less than this.
Now it seems like common business practice in tech companies and no-one seems to care..
And it accomplished precisely nothing, save brain-dead “N” editions of Windows that nobody cared about. Being hit with an antitrust suit doesn’t matter one whit if the courts aren’t willing to put some muscle behind their yapping and, let’s be honest, most governments depend too much on Microsoft for them to ever want to really do jack crap about it.
Hi,
It’s hard to say what it did/didn’t accomplish. For example; maybe if the antitrust charges didn’t happen, Microsoft would’ve forced us to use IE/Edge on desktop and would refuse to allow third party browsers to be installed at all.
– Brendan
Brendan,
That’s a good point, as much as many people think there weren’t sufficient consequences for microsoft’s antitrust abuses, things could be much worse if there were no interventions at all. Even the threat of an antitrust lawsuit may give microsoft pause, after all they don’t want to give courts a reason to revisit the breakup option.
Which is what Apple have done with their iOS devices
There would be no Apple, Firefox or Google without the antitrust lawsuits. MS were forced to bail out and support Apple and allow alternate browsers.
Can you install Linux on these machines ?
That would be one way of avoiding edge !
… Edge is ok. I use it all the time and it’s become pretty stable since its initial release.
but, yea, no need to force Bing on people. that’s pretty silly.
Edited 2017-05-03 16:48 UTC
There is one annoying thing that IE and Edge do that keep me from using them. When you start the browser, focus on the address bar and start typing, it blurs input when the browser finishes loading – right in the middle of topping. I HATE that. This kind of thing is actually all over Windows, and it’s a big reason I don’t use Windows anymore.
As a web developer I have no complaints about Edge. It’s a little behind in some areas but ahead in others. Pretty good actually
…targeted at the same market segment.
At least for $50 more one gets a full desktop like experience, which isn’t available on iOS and ChromeOS.
> At least for $50 more one gets a full desktop like experience, which isn’t available on iOS and ChromeOS.
That’s strange, because my ancient Samsung Chromebook runs both ChromeOS and a “full desktop like experience” with Ubuntu. Yes, I had to switch to developer mode, but at least Ubuntu is getting updates. ChromeOS on my Chromebook hasn’t had an udpate for over 6 months, so I think it’s EOL as far as Google is concerned.
A full desktop like experience is not available on ChromeOS, but it is available on a ChromeBook if you add Ubuntu…just like it would be available on a Windows 10 S machine if you added Ubuntu.
Can you even add another browser on ChromeOS?
And who wants to bet that you can simply change all the file and protocol associations to another browser with the “assoc” command?
You mean this type of hacks that no normal regular users don’t have any idea whatsoever how to do it?
https://www.howtogeek.com/210817/how-to-enable-developer-mode-on-you…
This is no longer ChromeOS as bought on the shop.
Dunno about stupid. This approach has worked well for Apple for quite some time. Pitch your base product just below what people want in terms of features and watch them spend a little more for the next model up once they are hooked.
I don’t think it’s stupid at all. People like their phones better, and one big reason is they can’t break them as easily by installing a ton of crapware. This is a better model for general consumers.
You need to look at the market stats. The iPhone is rapidly losing market share everywhere except the US, Britain and Australia.[All markets that rely on carrier subsidies.]
https://9to5google.com/2017/03/15/android-market-share-kantar/
That’s a non sequitur. The other person was talking about how much people like their iPhones and whether it’s a better ecosystem for consumers (it is), not market share.
Apple doesn’t try to sell the most smartphones — just as Aston Martin doesn’t try to sell the most cars. Apple is a premium brand and they won’t harm their good name, or profit margin, by selling the kind of cheap, low-end product that makes up the majority of Android phone sales around the world.
Here’s a good read that says a lot about Apple mobile phone strategy and success:
http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/26/a-very-false-narrative-sa…
Apple’s only ‘strategy’ is using hidden carrier subsidies averaging USD400 per iPhone. That us why the iPhone is losing share in every country where people normally buy phones outright
Who cares about marketshare? That changes primarily because of the proliferation of budget Android phones diluting iOS figures. As long as Apple is maintaining or increasing the actual numbers of iPhones sold, then its share of the overall smartphone profits in the entire phone market holds up and that is all Apple has ever cared about.
And I’m going S quite probably, Weckart. Not because of money. It’s about 20 years of ‘only God could know’, wacky, loss-my-temper maintenance scenarios.
For friends and family home systems only. [Not going back to closed on professional]. But would recommend same for Schools and Small Business.
*ding* *ding*
Bring out yer lawyers….
This entire product is already DOA. No one running Chromebooks wants to run Windows. Full Stop. Windows 10 S does not have a three finger factory reset. This is not going to gain traction. I work for a company that has schools with chromebooks. The appeal is two logins and a laptop is setup. If there’s an issue we three finger factory reset the device and get the kids to login. If they still have a problem we RMA to HP. It’s braindead simple. Windows 10 S will just add overly complex Windows maintenance workload to that setup. It’s a stupid idea. Customers wanting to run Windows want the full domain experience with domain controllers, portable logins etc. They are totally different markets. The locked down app store isn’t what sells chromebooks. It’s the fast factory reset/RMA process.
Edited 2017-05-03 19:39 UTC
I bought a Lenovo Windows 10 Cloudbook. When I tried a factory reset it bricked the device.
Edited 2017-05-04 09:21 UTC
What is a Lenovo Cloudbook?
Using the “Recovery” option in Windows has always been reliable for me, but much too slow.
For Home: Basically every OEM puts a recovery partition on the machine.
For Work: Basically every company has a “roll-out” mechanism that puts a company-image on machines automatically. Very large companies can even order machines from OEMs with their own company-image
For Education: InTunes for Education makes it possible for teachers or teacher-assistants (not IT-PRO’s) to create their own “tuned” OS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zY4-NizDu0&t=1372
….my personal way to create a “3-finger-reset” is with a child/parent vhd native boot. (basically using snapshot technology on a non-virtualized OS)
What is a Lenovo Cloudbook?
A ‘Cloudbook’ is MS feeble attempt to sell a Chromebook alternative. They are underpowered rubbish running 32 bit Windows 10 on bargain basement (Atom/Celeron 2GB RAM, eMMC memory) hardware.
Windows 10 realistically needs hardware 4x as powerful as a Chromebook to work properly.
In this case the recovery partition didn’t work leaving a bricked device.
There is no such thing as a Lenovo Cloudbook. Cloudbook was never a term that anyone used except for Acer. But at least I understand what you are talking about now: http://www.businessinsider.com/best-cheap-laptop-lenovo-ideapad-100…
Windows 10 works properly on such hardware, just not as fast as you would get on an i7 with more RAM and a proper SSD. But there is nothing in the OS that doesn’t work properly on such specs.
You can easily unbrick your device with the media creation tool: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
Also, such machines didn’t use recovery partitions: https://www.petri.com/windows-10-disk-optimization
I agree that you should be able to change the default search engine.
But with the browser it seems to me this isn’t nefarious as it seems. Part of the entire reason for existing (according to MS) for Windows 10 S is management for education facilities and for MS and organizations to better control the software.
To facilitate this they are primarily using the store as the delivery. It looks like it’s not limited to UWP only type apps but also will run win32 apps in a UWP wrapper as long as it’s distributed via the store.
So really the only issue with the browser choice is that Chrome and Firefox are still not available as a UWP application. So is it MS’s fault they won’t be able to run Chrome or Google’s fault Chrome isn’t available as a UWP app. If they want their browser available then they can put it in the store to make it available.
I see this as a way to force seeding apps in the store. If there becomes a market in the education system that can only get there apps through the store more publishers are going to have to start using it.
I think the laptop is overkill for what S is but the option is available for free or $50 to go too pro and you’re back to full range Windows 10.
RJay75,
They’re relying too much on coercion for my tastes. I’ve always thought that if I were in microsoft’s position, I would emphasize delivering great products with features that people desired whiling discouraging this whole “you don’t have a choice” formula that they rely on so often. When consumers show concern over what microsoft is doing, it just seems microsoft’s primary strategy is doubling down on taking control and choice away from users. I’d send a message to all divisions of the company that users need to use our software because they genuinely like it rather than because we’ve added barriers to using other software. If our software store isn’t being embraced by customers, then we need to listen to customers to make it genuinely better.
Edited 2017-05-03 21:39 UTC
hmm…
HMMM….
so is it locked to Windows Store only apps?
or just universal apps (from any source)?
’cause if it’s the first… then that means that Tim Sweeney was totaly right to be paranoid about Microsoft :/
Try changing the default browser on a Chromebook
Thom and just about everyone else is missing the entire point about what Windows 10 S is targeted at. This is a Chrome OS ONLY competitor for primary schools (K-12 in the US), and as such it competes on a feature by feature comparison for the education (schools only) market.
Schools do not care about being able to install Firefox. Schools do not want students altering the software on these devices AT ALL. They want them to only run the software they, the school system, want to run on it, nothing else. As such, any software they are using will be designed with these restrictions to begin with.
These decisions aren’t limitations in as far as the average technical user would consider them to be, they are a needed feature for the market these devices are targeted towards.
Frankly, if I were going to give a kid a computer, considering how much garbage-ware my nieces collect in just an hour sitting at a PC if they aren’t supervised, there’s no way I’d get them anything other than a completely locked down Chrome OS or Windows 10 S device till they could convince me they could be trusted with a full featured OS or had an overwhelming need to require the resources for one.
Since the Linux fanboys are already chiming in with “Just use Ubuntu!” that’s not going to happen because education software vendors don’t sell software for Linux systems and public school systems don’t have the resources to have custom software written for the moving target that is Linux.
stormcrow,
I agree with you here, most districts don’t have the resources, expertise or management tools to use an off the shelf linux distro. Although I think with a strong initiative we could make a linux distro that fits the bill very well. That sounds like a good idea to me.
Edited 2017-05-04 23:21 UTC
Well Alf. Educational vendors now have 2 choices: Pay the 50 bucks difference for every workstation, or pay Store.
Store name misleading. Of course there are quality assurance, security and health services.
The 50 bucks bring those unavoidable services to the whole platform.
Edited 2017-05-05 16:23 UTC
From now on Windows programmers have an INNER ecosystem -S, and an OUTER one -Pro.
That inner ecosystem is going to skim an even more restricted ecosystem -?, which will be foundational to future smart-phone campaign.
You can only use Edge with Windows 10 S?
If this is such a big deal, why not complain about only being able to use Chrome on Chromebooks?
Plus, the statement is not true. With the upgrade – free for schools/students forever, free for everyone else until end of year, after which it’s $49, it Windows 10 pro, and you can install whatever browser you want.
And you can’t do that with a Chromebook.
And the comment that Bing just plain sucks is so ridiculous and ignorant that it’s laughable. It’s all fine and dandy to not like it, but it’s results are very comparable to Google. Regularly switch between Google, Bing, and DDG, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. But my overall experience with Bing has been quite good. To say that Bing sucks just displays irrational MS hate.
As for the Surface Laptop – it’s a flagship, a la Google Pixel Chromebook, and the OEMs provide the cheap versions.
So, a school/student can upgrade -Pro “free of charge”.
FOREVER!?
Against Law At Most Countries. Cheap [or Free] no excuse.
MS would loss a penny from publicity, but still could monetize from harvesting, through proxy bridging or duplicating.
Edited 2017-05-05 17:04 UTC
…For Free, From Home, To -S?
Officialy: No
Effectively: Yes, by going to Settings, Apps, Apps & features and choosing to Allow apps from the Store only.
I like this option a lot for “parents/friends” that you support a few times per year. You set-up their machine with all the non-store apps that you want, then prevent more non-store apps from being installed and give them a non-administrator account. The amount of “support calls” reduces greatly
Great Advice 🙂
Thanks, Avgalen.