Eric Lundgren is resigned to doing prison time. After spending his life working on e-waste recycling programs, Lundgren was arrested and charged with “counterfeiting” Microsoft restore discs, part of a controversial, years-long legal fight that ended this week when an appeals court declined to overturn a lower court’s decision.
This is one of those cases where it’s very easy to hide behind the letter of the law, but anybody with more than two independent braincells to rub together should realise this man should not be in prison. Laws exist to serve man; man does not exist to serve laws. Nothing is more dangerous to a society and civilization than people believing law rules over man.
Microsoft was instrumental in this.
Microsoft is not the cuddly huggable reborn company it wants us to think it is.
They’re still charging Android phone makers a “fee” for patents .. which they refuse to make public
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android…
I don’t believe anything they say about being open source friendly.
I don’t either. Microsoft is like a tick, feeding off of open source (such as their recent embracing of the Linux subsystem for Windows) while at the same time attacking and ridiculing it as patent infringement. Ridiculous. I don’t use Windows and haven’t for 18 years now. Linux is everything I need.
Every reference I’ve seen about this case is an interview that presents a very one sided story about the case. What I’d really love to see is photographs of the discs at issue to see how they presented themselves to customers. The fact that multiple courts have reached this conclusion makes me think that people who have seen them thought something wasn’t right.
What I’m imagining is what’s on ebay today. Take something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Windows-XP-Professional-x64-SP2-Install… .
* It’s presented to closely mirror the original product, although it is labelled as not containing a key.
* The packaging contains many trademarks, which are almost certainly not licensed.
* It’s selling for $15-16, which is far higher than the cost of production implying somebody is doing this for profit, not to reduce e-waste.
* It’s also an obscure SKU which makes it fairly unlikely that the people buying it actually have that product.
How does this relate to Lundgren? Without seeing the actual products he was trading in, no idea. But there are clearly people out there making significant money from selling discs containing software they don’t have licenses for, and for whom money seems like the primary motivation.
Edited 2018-04-27 23:56 UTC
Whenever I see an unusual Windows disc (seemingly real or obviously fake), or a torrent or USB drive installer, etc, I immediately think it’s Virus city. The easiest way to compromise an OS is to have people start with an already compromised OS.
The general conclusion was:
1. He was selling the discs (this wasn’t a free service)
2. He was representing them as authentic Windows discs, instead of copies.
Windows and Dell, apparently.
Microsoft has provided a link to evidence submitted by the prosecution. In it, it has photos of the discs that he was selling:
https://blogs.microsoft.com/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/2LUNDGREN6….
1. The discs he sold have Dell logos, are clearly labeled “Only for distribution with a new DELL PC”
2. They reproduce the holograms Microsoft uses for demonstrate authenticity. There are emails discussing whether the holograms are accurate enough to pass muster
3.There are emails discussing selling the discs to less-descerning buyers who wouldn’t notice the errors that indicate they are counterfeit – like, the disc saying “Made in U.S.A” (dropping the period at the end), or labeled as made in the US on the disc but Made in Canada on the sleeves.
In fact, a customer dropped a large order because they realized they were counterfeit, and they were discussing finding another buyer who wouldn’t notice the mistakes, suggesting that that is the type of buyer they’d prefer
4. They discuss ways to get them past customs without being checked, hoping to use a few techniques to get them through without a close examination or any examination at all, because they understand Customs will treat them as counterfeit
Well, that’s a clear message….
if you recycle computers, don’t use a microsoft os.
if you recycle computers, don’t pirate a microsoft os.
FTFY
It’s hardly pirating if the software is free and legal to download. If he was selling recovered license keys, that might be piracy, but it’s all a grey area.
But those who get recycled PCs overwhelmingly also want and expect MS OS…
I actually agree in principle, I think the court messed up badly on the damages calculation and that is pretty much why he is going to prison and not paying a fine and doing some community service.
That said, he is clearly guilty of the crime he was being prosecuted for. There is no question about that. I think the punishment is a bit over the top, but there is no rationale defense for what he did. Good intentions don’t really matter.
This isn’t a patent troll case. Its not a misapplication of copyright. Those disk images are clearly copyright protected, and it doesn’t make any difference that Microsoft gives them away for free. He paid for a whole helluvalot of illegal copies, and admitted to planning on selling them, and actually sold some of them to a snitch. They were (as far as every description I have found) even printed to look exactly like original dics. The guy is guilty. Period.
Copyright is what makes things like the GPL enforceable. You can’t just ignore it, and it is intellectually dishonest to give this guy a pass here.
He would have had an interesting fair use defense if he had just given the things away for free, but charging for them, even at a tiny profit, destroys pretty much any chance of making a case for that. Its was a money making venture, no matter how minuscule the profit margin was. It was not his product to make money from – this kind of thing is exactly what copyright is for. Microsoft has every right to go after someone profiting from their protected works without any attempt at negotiating license or even asking permission…
So yes, the court went overboard on the damages and might not have clearly understood what was really at play here, but it doesn’t matter – the guy was as guilty as you can possibly be…
Edited 2018-04-28 01:03 UTC
I think they established that the software on the disks themselves had no value without a license… but it was a value added thing ie someone printing out CDs and mailing them is apparently worth $25. Honestly if it was worth that much I’d quite my day job because I could make 10x as much just mailing stupid CDs all day.
What they should have done is found out what he paid for all the disks and how much it would cost to warehouse and mail them,…. and just fine him that amount. Because that would be the value of what he did… prison time for this guy is an atrocity.
Edited 2018-04-28 03:59 UTC
Not, it’s not. It’s what he deserves. This guy’s a lot like those who ran around selling GPL’ld Redhat distro’s a couple of years back who inferred to the people they sold them to that they would get support from Redhat for these disks untill Redhat put a stop to that kind of thing.
And another thing. If you know anything about these Windows restore CD’s, they were never intended to be resold,especially in this particular manner.
This guy was basically out for the $$$$,plain and simple and got nailed for it.
Breaks my heart that a wannabe-white-collar-criminal is going to be spending time in Club Fed.
Really,it does. NOT.
Edited 2018-04-28 04:59 UTC
The guy was providing a useful service..
A windows oem license stays with the machine, therefore if you buy that machine used you get the license with it. But if the disk has been wiped (as is normal for used hardware) the machine will be blank and you can’t use it.
You can download the recovery image yourself, but how do you download it if the only computer you have is blank?
There’s also nothing wrong with selling gpl copies of redhat, and you can still buy support from redhat afterwards. Support is a separate service.
The guy was selling counterfeit Windows discs disguised as authentic.
These weren’t “Bob’s Restore Discs”.
They were labeled as Microsoft made, bearing a counterfeit hologram intended to convey authenticity, covered with Dell trademarks, and intended to deceive. There is even an email discussion thread between the two defendants about how one batch did’t look realistic, and how those discs should only be sold to customers that didn’t have enough attention to detail to actually notice the mistakes.
The men were trying to deceive the people they were selling discs to by representing them as authentic, when they were clearly not.
Red Hat doesn’t like others mentioning their trademarks though / also doesn’t like misrepresenting from who the software came, like in this case…
Really? How many of those discs do you think he was selling a day? A year?
Apparently 700000 worth at 20-25$ a pop by the courts estimates….
Also it’s note a scam if the disk matches the COA license. Sounds like they didn’t alot of times though.
Edited 2018-04-28 07:59 UTC
He charged 25 CENTS per disk …
I thought the same until I saw the evidence Microsoft posted. This guy was nothing more than a shady crook trying to use “recycling” as moral cover. That just makes it worse in my view. He got less than he deserved.
Edited 2018-04-28 07:17 UTC
Also… The linked article was updated (not sure if it was before or after Thom posted this as I read the article earlier in the day before the update was on it).
Anyway, the update links to an official Microsoft reply from their blog:
https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about…
Pretty damning. Those emails all came from evidence in the trial. The guy was just a scummy profiteer – he can go on about recycling and saving the environment all he wants to – those emails tell a completely different story…
In hindsight I revise me earlier comments. This guy got off light. He deserved worse.
Edited 2018-04-28 06:55 UTC
He made copies of the Dell recovery disc in China for 80 grand. I have no idea how many discs you get for that.. but i bet a LOT.
He was NOT sued by microsoft in the first place, but users that after buying it had to get a license which they thought came with their systems for some reason. If he had only sold Dell systems with a serial sticker on them refurbished, this would not have been an issue for microsoft. However he used the dell install (which is filled to the brim with bad crap) on ALL machines and included the disc with the purchase.
After getting so many activation complaints from 2012 onwards by microsoft activation support MS had to act and filed the suit in concordance with Washington law.
I agree that punishment should fit the crime, but painting him as an hero does not hepl the credibility.
https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about…
I have to say, the spin on the case he put forward compared to the facts Microsoft have completely changed my view of the case. This isn’t someone caught in “small print madness”, this is someone who actively sought out to defraud people, and personally profit from it.
quote from his own emails;
“If the software will be 98% accurate I believe I can get away with that.â€
Edited 2018-04-28 07:23 UTC
https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about…
some e-waste “guru”, by his OWN emails the guy shows himself to be an out and out criminal…
the term “e-waste guru” should be removed from the articles title….
[edit] no windows fan, so no axe to grind!!
Edited 2018-04-28 08:31 UTC
Anybody that actually knows something about this case and have a working brain understands that:
. He broke the law.
. He broke it knowingly, intentionally.
. He broke it to profit from it.
. He is a lying scumbag.
As I posted on slashdot previously you can argue that copyright shouldn’t exist, that laws shouldn’t exist (popular on /. – rants about mob rule a.k.a jury nullification) or that this case is special.
But don’t fucking lie.
This case isn’t a special one. It is a clear violation of copyright law similar to many earlier cases.
I seriously dislike how MS profits from recycling operations, the discs should be provided at cost or (if not possible) with the tiniest profit margin possible.
Disliking something doesn’t mean one can break the law. Disobeying the law if one finds it unjust (and if doing it doesn’t hurt anyone) can be morally right in some instances.
Disobeying the law for profit isn’t.
“Rule of men over law”/”people are the sovereign” (instead of “rule of law”/”law is the sovereign”) is what currently ruling in Poland party PiS (“Law and Justice” …ironic name) advocates, and you might have heard the mess they’re causing (like passing unconstitutional laws).
AFAIK US had this question solved in the early XIX century; that’s why their Supreme Court have the final say in things; and, in the US, KaczyÅ„ski (leader of PiS) would be seen as either a madman or anarchist… it’s plain populism / mob rule.
You say it threatens civilisation, but civilisation / civilised societies are based on rules (also laws).
What connects and cements society are the rules.
If we followed only the rules, which we ourselves recognise as correct and wise, then no rule would be left standing, because there is none, which everybody would like. And when we keep in mind our personal gain, then – like we see in this example – we will always find some reason to assent, that the rule, which prevents us in obtaining that gain, is unjust and unwise. Therefore that, which begins from clever circumvention of some rule, ends in overall chaos and misery, which affect even the dodger, who circumvented that rule, because he will also not survive the downfall of the society in which he lives.
And as a lonely, isolated from others individual you’d be much weaker than as an element of integrated society. But do you think you can have something for nothing? Heck, personal contacts themselve restrict individual “freedom”…