http://www.osnews.com/story/4381/MIcrosoft_Linux_Threat_Pictographs Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:29:50 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well c'mon guys...that's a worm.

Come to think of it...interesting concept, spreading Debian as a worm virus... Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The pumpkin face icon on an OSNews story means "humor," so don't take this one too seriously. It's just a funny coincidence. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ..If they're using the Debian Trademark without permission and in a way that may harm Debian's ability to prosper in its target market place by creating a false impression in future user's minds? Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This is what it really is:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=pseudocoelomate Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? that their website is served by LINUX


http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.microsoft.com Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? :) Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The pumpkin face icon on an OSNews story means "humor," so don't take this one too seriously.

Oh, I thought the pumpkin face was a reference to the Halloween documents. That's a rather strange icon for humor.

I see the parallel, but it doesn't look too much like the Debian trademark to me. Not that it looks like a virus, either. A worm, maybe, but I've never seen a hairy worm, nor a worm curled like that (unless it was dead). Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I think it's just an accurate picture. It shows a home pc on one side of the firewall and the internet (Linux) on the other. It's suprising that Microsoft shows such attention to detail. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Looks like a sega dreamcast logo to me. I think we all know the dreamcast has internet ability and that it can run a Windows CE like OS to host some of the games.
Maybe Microsoft still feel bitter and know that the dreamcast people are using it as ab hacking tool :o

Anyway, looks more like a dreamcast console logo then a linux logo to me, but I think that may depend on if you got a euro version of the console or not. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? No, it's the Sega Dreamcast logo. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well, then I give you another netcraft page... http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=microsoft.com Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Update your computer" Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? They have Sociologists and Psychologist working for M$ to evaluate user's behavior. I wouldnt put it past them. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...but a very funny one, given the "viral" nature of the GNU GPL. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well, even if it is a coincidence .. it could still be, you know, a freudian kind of concidence!! Remember freudian slips?? Its like that driver who bumped into/smashed another car from the rear. According to the psychotherapist who dug into the case, this driver was suffering from oedipus complex, and bumping into the other car from the rear like that was, you know, the driver actualising his childroom dream to rape his mother's anus!!!!!! Wheew!!! Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I dont think at all it looks like a debian logo. However, I find it more interesting that the pc and pc tower used in the illustration is very "bluecurve"-ish Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I think that it's an insidious plot by microsoft to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of windows users subconsciously, and thus limit the adoption of linux on the desktop...of with bill gates and steve ballmer's heads!!! =D nah, forget it...that's a way too well thought out plan to have come out of redmond...they can keep their puny heads =D Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Confirmation:

$ ./tcp_client1.pl http://www.microsoft.com | less
The server had a response line of:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:33:09 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)
Last-Modified: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:41:47 GMT
ETag: "1b6606-25dd-3f1dd9cb"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 9693
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? >Confirmation:
Old news.
MS is outsourcing their domain names and similar to a company that provides proxy services and sends attackers to the nearest place by "manipulating" dns info and similar, in order to withstand a longgoing ddos attack. That company runs their proxy servers on linux, which (ofcourse) proxies the real servers running windows and iis. Poke around the netcraft site, you'll find find the explanation. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? that their website is served by LINUX

Actually thats not true.

MS has a deal with Akamai to use the Akamai network as a front line against DoS attacks.

Netcraft ends up querying the front line servers which are Akamai servers running Linux.

Microsoft's site itself is hosted on Windows 2003. MS dog foods all of their software. Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Here is www.microsoft.com

using Akamai's handle (edgesuite.net)


http://www.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net/

THIS IS A LINUX MACHINE

HELLO!

microsoft.com IS w2003 but it immediately redirects to

www.microsoft.com

WHICH IS ALSO A LINUX MACHINE

use your host command

host www.microsoft.com
www.microsoft.com CNAME www.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net
www.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net CNAME a562.cd.akamai.net
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.167
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.168
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.169
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.179
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.180
a562.cd.akamai.net A 64.156.220.104
a562.cd.akamai.net A 64.156.220.105
a562.cd.akamai.net A 64.156.220.106
a562.cd.akamai.net A 63.209.144.166


HELLO!! THESE ARE ALL LINUX MACHINES! Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Akamai as far as I can tell, those are Akamai's edge cacheing servers that are running linux, but M$ uses 2003 for their serving.

Akama = ASP 2 M$ for getting content fast across the net. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Tells me that they don't trust Windows 2003 for production web serving. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? And of course you are quite myopic. A monoculture of operating systems is terrible, right? Oh no, not when it's Microsoft. And please, read up on "dogfood" at Microsoft.

http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5548

There are probably tons of open source kiddies attacking Microsoft, and they have taken the smart route. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Microsoft Uses Linux. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 02:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I am confused because that page says the OS is linux but the web server is II-S. Did not know that Linux ran II-S. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 02:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Here's the explanation of IIS on Linux:

http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/08/17/wwwmicrosoftcom_runs_l... Sun, 31 Aug 2003 02:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The pumpkin icon means may mean humor on osnews.com, but for a lot of Linux people it reminds us of the Halloween documents. Just an FYI Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? does the caching, how much real work do their own servers do? if most of the load is on the Linux servers wouldn't be correct in assuming that all the Microsoft servers do is update the cache on Akamai and let them (akamai) do all the hardwork? Sun, 31 Aug 2003 04:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? oh my goth.... what's wrong with linux-people.
... and the ssybase logo is looking just like the debian logo.... my god... sybase is going to steal debian!!! Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The MAC people rewrote their code based on BSD ( the older brother of Linux ). Now micro$oft is maybe trying to make windowZ look and feel like Debian linux.or a red not a blue curve to make it look like Redhat.. ok the blue cat is out of the box now ,and it's name is suse. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i don't think it looks like either the debian logo nor the dreamcast logo or even a worm. i just think they got real lazy with their graphic selection and bricked on it looking like a worm if that's what they're going for. i mean come on; worms don't have little legs in the front of their bodies. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? it's just a worm Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? That hair on the (worm thingy) is cool... Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? From the "protect your pc" page:
"Make sure that you are running Windows XP. To do this, click Start, and then click Run; in the Run dialog box, type winver. Click OK. This will tell you which version of Windows you are using."

It seems to me MS is using the cmd more and more. Also in other parts of their site it seems cmd is used a lot, at least more than in the early XP days.

Is it just me or...? Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? the author of the post should take trip to doctors office...
debian logo my a.. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm no expert, but having dreams about about somebody cutting your balls off and running off with them doesn't sound good to me! As soon as my crack legal team locates him, he will be sorry! Honey, I think he needs a new McBride, this one is all poopy. But more to the point.

http://www.rageagainst.net/scogenerator.php Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? this is about as silly as the "beos icon in longhorn LOOK LOOK!" news item

:P Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Debian have removed M$ software from my computer xDDDD Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Actually, the image on microsoft's page looks much like a centipede, but seems like the drawer got bored of drawing all the legs and stopped after a while.. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? that symbol (the worm) also symbolises infinity, which is a good way to represent the internet if you ask me...

~Progster Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? [does the caching, how much real work do their own servers do? if most of the load is on the Linux servers wouldn't be correct in assuming that all the Microsoft servers do is update the cache on Akamai and let them (akamai) do all the hardwork?]

Microsoft's servers don't do much as far as delivery. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i always thought that M$ had special agents that came and stole you computer if you talked bad about them, besides i thought that the "great worm" was written on a M$ machine? Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I am confused because that page says the OS is linux but the web server is II-S. Did not know that Linux ran II-S.

Netcraft is reporting incorrect information due to the Akamai's edge servers.

You see IIS because Microsoft.com indeed is running IIS on Windows 2003. You see Linux as the OS because Akamai is using linux to cache the hits. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If that really is Debian's icon or a slightly modified version of it, then Debian should have the right to use Microsoft's icons in a similar fassion, right?

Maybe we need to warp the icon slightly or rotate it 5 degrees, but it could very easily pass as a potential virus threat for all Debian users. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Come on people, that is _not_ the Debian logo... It's a simple worm. And from the arrangement of those little hairs, I'm guessing it's the Welchia worm. All whom have clicked on that link are now infected! All your base are belong to Gates. Make your time. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? They would be crazy not to. It wouldn't look good if they ran anything else. Anyone else upgrading to 2003 right now on the other hand, must be really brainwashed by Microsoft.
From my experience Windows 2000 works well (For a Microsoft OS at least) and paying for 2003 doesn't make any sense. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? You people are all nuts, Akamai's the one running Linux, not M$, read prior posts and articles, especially the one on netcrafts site that someone posted. This icon looks absolutely nothing like the Debian logo, I think most of the people here are just confused by the swirl nature of it, but if you put them side by side, they barely share even that similarity. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...and I ain't no worm! Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? So you'd much rather listen to the typical US TV station of "all the way with GWB"? the whole media being one big bloody extension of the US foreign policy? when ever GWB opens his mouth the whole US media go all giddy like a school girl?

That is the type of crap I see being broadcast in the US. No wonder your average US citizen is ignorant about their world around them and the complete lack of any empanthy towards people living in Palistine Iran or Cuba.

And this is the type of crap I would expect to be spewed from the mouth of a closed-minded bigot. But you're not intentionally inflammatory, right? Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? No, but well this is the worlds largest software company. They may eat their own dogfood, yet since they aren't hosting their 2K3 servers DIRECTLY ON THE INTERNET, they are only SAMPLING their own products. LOL

"There are probably tons of open source kiddies attacking Microsoft, and they have taken the smart route."

Right, the "smart route" == do not trust their own products as I said. Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This is exactly the situation so many corporations use the DMCA for. This situation would be a great way to harras Microsoft and take down the DMCA. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 01:08:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? All this is about is Microsoft responding to a network problem. Thats all it is. You Linux boys out there are having wet dreams if you see it as anything more.

If Microsoft had a caching system like Akamai available, or there was a competitor running on MS, they would be using it.

This isn't about Microsoft trusting their own products, it's about Microsoft doing what they need to to protect them and their customers from DDOS attacks. It's a network problem.

Hell, there's a whole load of Linux routers out there on the Internet too, I guess you think anytime MS traffic flows through one it's a case of Microsoft not trusting their products?

Goes to show not everyone who uses Linux knows much about how computers and the Internet works huh. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 01:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? How much you willing to put on that?

"This isn't about Microsoft trusting their own products"

Sure it is, if they trusted their own products they would not need a line of defense in front of them, even if it is sold to the more gullible folks as a "caching solution".

'nuff said Mon, 01 Sep 2003 01:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? [If Microsoft had a caching system like Akamai available, or there was a competitor running on MS, they would be using it.]


But there isn't, and they don't.

Face it. Microsoft's site is being served by Linux.



Kiss the penguin microsofties your idol company has betrayed you. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 03:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "if they trusted their own products they would not need a line of defense in front of them, even if it is sold to the more gullible folks as a "caching solution".

Well shucks, if you'd rather ignore the reality that this is about protecting MS from DDOS, that's fine with me.

Now you'll excuse me as I've got to go and snicker about the warped imagination of some Linux lovers I sometimes come across. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 03:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Face it. Microsoft's site is being served by Linux."

No one has denied that Linux servers are sending out cached versions of microsoft.com.

The Linux fanboys are all jumping up and down with froth spurting out of their mouths and ears as they have dreamed up some deluded idea of Microsoft needing Linux to protect them from DDOS attacks.

Well, hello Linux fanboys - Linux is susceptible to DDOS attacks too.

Don't let this simple fact spoil your desire to believe your nonsensical theory though. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 03:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "This isn't about Microsoft not trusting their own products, it's about Microsoft doing what it needs to to protect them and their customers from DDOS attacks. It's a network problem."

Syllogism :
Microsoft trusts Akamai;
Akamai trusts Linux;
Microsoft trusts Akamai's trust of Linux;
ergo Microsoft trusts Linux.

"... or if there was a competitor running on MS, ..."

To cook your fish, first catch your fish ... perhaps the ones needing a 24/7 service aren't ready to trust MS. Microsoft has had for too long the idea that in order to cook your fish, you must first catch your potato. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 08:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Yes, exactly because they don't trust their products. They could build IIS NLB clusters, served from many locations to protect themselves from DDOS attacks and to provide tons of redundancy if they trusted Windows 2003. You know how I know that? I'm building them myself! Get your head out of the sand, this is the same company that had all of their DNS servers on the same subnet a few years ago. (Without understanding their web code..) They could colo IIS NLB clusters in Boston, NYC, Seattle, Dallas, Orlando, Indianapolis, and several other cities then tie them together with RR to prevent DDOS, and the need for "caching". If you had even 6 mos expierence with their tech you would know that. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Yepper,that was my solution to the cuurent virus going 'round Debian Linux,hehe,and it's pretty damn nice BTW,although it's no BeOS,but at least the damn package manager seems to work OK,and it looks like it will tide me over 'till i get a new BeOS box up and running,
And BTW after checking a few things out on the netcraft.com site posted here earlier it seem that Yellowtab.com is also running Linux,and so is BeBits,along with M$,as a matter of fact the only commercial OS maker that's running their own OS on their site is Apple!
and on another note got that frickin virus 3 times in my email today alone,seems that the thing is pulling my email address of ppl's outlook address books and sending itself out in my name and the recipients keep sending it back here,this could go on for ages! all the more reason not to run M$ for internet uses. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? but it fall to times like this when the great roman empire starts to crumble(M$). Dell and other computer companies are starting to put linux on their products. i can honestly see more attacks like this comming, people get scared and they don't care how something work they just want it to work. couple more "blaster worms" and i could seen linux and Mac starting to gain ground over M$ products and OS. Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well lets see why should I use windows

* Do I want to get a virus...no

* Do I want an insecure os...no

* Do I want a unstable os...no Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...Why does that Microsoft instruct users to use a command line tool to find out the version of their operating system??? I mean, go to the system properties in any one of three generally easy GUI ways and find out there. Or hell, if you just want to know if it is Windows XP or not, just look to the left of the start menu (if running in classic mode)! Even better, remember back to the last time you booted the freakin thing; the splash screen says "Microsoft(TM) Windows(TM) XP"!!! Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Win2k3 = Windows NT 5.2
WinXP = Windows NT 5.1
Win2k = Windows NT 5.0

Why Microsoft had to do the song-and-dance routine with their upgrades I'll never know - considering that this time around it's been a bit of a flop ...

If this Microsoft "worm" looks abit too much like the Debian logo, it won't affect the fact they've made a few too many misteps. Why should the market forgive them? Tue, 02 Sep 2003 07:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments